[ICD] Gush

[lorddotm]

Why exactly is this banned?

Maybe I'm missing something huge, but it just doesn't seem all that broken.

Are they that scared of Gro?

[Jaynel]

Gush
0
INSTANT
Gush is blue.
DRAW 2 CARDS.

Seems ban-worthy to me.

[Forbiddian]

Probably it's banned because it's broken. But maybe it's just banned because it's quite broken.

[AngryTroll]

Decks running few lands don't really mind picking up two of them at the end of their opponent's turn, then making their land drop (that they would have otherwise missed), especially when most of the things they want to cast cost one or two.

Once Thresh has three lands in play, going back to two lands in play isn't a big deal. It might compete some with Daze, but it would still be pretty amazing.

EDIT: I don't know that it's "broken." Ancestral Recall is broken. Mind's Desire is broken. Gush is probably too strong for the format.

[hi-val]

Without Fastbond, Gush isn't as strong. That's not to say that it is not strong, but that when we have cards like Brainstorm around, we shouldn't be tossing "broken" around so casually.

Gush is probably fine in the format. I don't see it being degenerate, I see it being quite good though and often-played.

To reiterate: what made Gush amazing in Vintage was two cards: Fastbond and Time Walk. Getting the first generally led to getting the second, also. Without either of those (but with Merch!), Gush would be powerful and most unfortunately, might make STASIS playable : <

[troopatroop]

Gush is probably fine in the format. I don't see it being degenerate, I see it being quite good though and often-played.

With Lorescale Coatl in the picture, Gush becomes degenerate. There would be no reason to play any other deck!

[ssilver]

Just think of casting that baby with Lorescale Coatl out.... *drools*

[KillemallCFH]

Free = good; Card draw = good; ergo, Free Card draw = t3h br0k3nzorz.

That being said, I honestly have no idea how it would effect Legacy if unbanned. No Fastbond means it can't enable anything too silly, and modern Thresh/NLU absolutely don't want to be set back 2 land in the early-mid game. I guess true Gro might make a comeback, but I'm unsure how powerful it would be.

I don't know anything about Storm combo, but FT/AdT might be hesitant to run it alongside AdN (and TES obviously wouldn't play it). I'm also not sure it is even good in Storm at all, but I'll let someone who actually plays combo comment on that.

[rufus]

It's probably stronger in more controllish decks where the loss of land drops is less of an issue, or ones where it can break symmetric land destruction.

[from Cairo]

It allows agro control decks to function with less land as well, like the original Miracle Gro and Super Gro lists that Thresh evolved from. The deck could get by with 14-16 lands cause a 1 lander with a cantrip or two gets to 2 land, and with Gush you could protect them from Wasteland or do shit like tap them for 2 and replay one, to hit 3, etc etc. In conjunction with Daze and FoW it really overpowers Blue's ability to apply pressure while digging/protecting the pressure.

[pi4meterftw]

It's not as if gush is not broken, but it also doesn't make sense to ask something is unbanned merely because it isn't broken. If you think wizards is obligated to unban everything that is not broken, then why aren't you also wondering why fair things such as a goyf with -1/-2 or something aren't printed.

I mean the analogy isn't really 100% direct, but it still seems like there's a huge logical leap from "Isn't broken" to "worthy of unban."

[hi-val]

With Lorescale Coatl in the picture, Gush becomes degenerate. There would be no reason to play any other deck!

That makes me play Gush-Merfolk with 4 maindecked Submerges and win all day : )

IIRC, the Gro decks didn't actually get hated out of Extended as much as get gutted by the rotation of worb, FOW and the duals...

[Jak]

I think Gush would be a fun card to play with, but I think it would push blue decks like Thresh or Merfolk over the top. There is already enough blue in Legacy.

[Arctic_Slicer]

It's probably safer in this format than it was in Vintage and I'm still not quite sure why they unrestricted it in Vintage to begin with. It seemed obvious it would be broken in Vintage but in Legacy, not so much.

Anyway we keep having discussions about the B and R list here on the forums and the lack of action by the DCI in this matter. Maybe it's time we all started writing letters to Aaron Forsythe on this matter and let him know that the Legacy community believes it's time for the DCI to make a move on the B and R list. Write a letter detailing the cards you feel should be removed/added to the banned list as well as your argument for doing so. The letter should be long enough to make your point but short enough that it doesn't wind up in the trash bin.

[emidln]

FT will take 4 and consider Merchant Scroll as well. Also, I'll need to rename FT Next Level Doomsday since I'm sharing like 40 cards at that point.

[Gheizen64]

Gush
0
INSTANT
Gush is blue.
DRAW 2 CARDS.

Seems ban-worthy to me.

Basically, Gush is this. SOMETIMES it cost :1: , but most of the time, in the right deck, it cost just :0: . And that, sir, is just stupid.

Also, blue is the strongest color of the format, thanks to the most iconic blue creature evar: tarmogoyf. I don't think it need another strong card unbanned. If anything, we should push white and red a little.

[DrJones]

Basically, Gush is this. SOMETIMES it cost :1: , but most of the time, in the right deck, it cost just :0: . And that, sir, is just stupid.
Wrong! In the right deck, it costs -1 or -2.

[undone]

Picture this. You are both in top deck mode. You rip a gush with 2 lands and a fetch. you float a UG into a brainstorm, you brainstorm, you fetch you use that 1 G to either, top, goose, or whatever (or it could be U) and in one turn with 1 topdeck you go from 0 cards to 4 cards for +2 mana. This card is stupid broken especialy since sometimes even with 6 mana out you dont want to cast it, you want to alternate cast it so you can brainstorm away lands!

[quicksilver]

Also if you missed you land drop for the turn gush can return a tapped land then replay it untapped. So gush does not always cost zero mana, sometimes it can give you mana back!

[Anusien]

Also if you missed you land drop for the turn gush can return a tapped land then replay it untapped. So gush does not always cost zero mana, sometimes it can give you mana back!
The amusing thing about Gush is how despite wanting more lands, it pushes the land count of decks downward because this is a common play. You get a land drop out of Gush in addition to drawing 2 cards. I've played and won power during the Gush era; trust me, that shit is silly. Being broken with Gush is just an after effect.

Part of the problem with Gush is that the rest of the card draw in Legacy is so mediocre. There's lots of good filtering, but it's really easy for a deck to get ahead, start drawing blanks and fall behind. With Gush, if I play a turn 2 Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance with Gush in hand, I can't imagine ever losing that game.

[TrialByFire]

Gush also lets thresh protect its lands from Wasteland at the steep cost of DRAWING CARDS. I'm fine with where it is

[Fossil4182]

One of the other things alluded to is that it generates real card advantage. If Gush was a free cantrip, it might or might not see play... prob still would but it could be used. Decks like Threshold, Merfolk, etc get stupid with this card. Gush Bound draw engine was absolutely insane when it was legal in Vintage. Can't replicate that level of brokenness, but I'm sure it could get somewhere in this format that would be equally as devastating.

The other issue is the returning of the lands. I think if the lands had to be untapped, then maybe it would be fair enough for the format. Still prob not even then.

[Piceli89]

Not to mention Gush would compromise the whole aspect of mana denial given by wasteland and sinkhole for certain deck fighting against blue-based ones. Eva green, Team America and others would become significantly worse. Furthermore, i don't think Gush would give benefits to Merfolks, instead it would make them worse against Threshold ("attack you with lord of atlantis in play, in response gush on my two islands, block your dudes with my fatties").
And Gro would almost become the only tier1 without matches, obv.

[pi4meterftw]

If the lands had to be untapped, gush would be suboptimal. I wouldn't even play 2: instant, draw 2 cards in this format.

[quicksilver]

I wonder what a "fixed" gush might look like, maybe:

New Gush :u:
Instant
You may return an island to your hand instead of paying New Gush's mana cost.
Draw a card.

I wonder if that would be broken or not, could be fun. It at least would be a really good answer to land destruction.

[nix]

I wonder what a "fixed" gush might look like, maybe:

New Gush :u:
Instant
You may return an island to your hand instead of paying New Gush's mana cost.
Draw a card.

I wonder if that would be broken or not, could be fun. It at least would be a really good answer to land destruction.

i think it would cost more like 1U or even 2U, just to make sure it wasnt broken again, although, im not sure you really could break it anyway

[Fonzy]

i think it would cost more like 1U or even 2U, just to make sure it wasnt broken again, although, im not sure you really could break it anyway

I'm not sure it really matters what the mana cost is, because most of the time you're going to be paying the alternate cost anyhow. I mean, as it stands now, you're talking about a card that costs 5. See also: Inspiration, which isn't broken by anyone's imagination.

[Malchar]

Only drawing one card completely changes the purpose and function of Gush. Drawing two cards is near infinitely better than drawing one card.

[undone]

balancing this card would require something like adding a "Pay 4 life" clause to gush (or maby 5) as is there is no reasonable way to balanace it (even 3 islands is still way OP)

[Meekrab]

Gush also lets thresh protect its lands from Wasteland at the steep cost of DRAWING CARDS.
This made me laugh and laugh, and then laugh some more. Also:

Gush 0
Instant
Draw two cards : add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

Topics like this should be answered with links to old tournament reports or something, for the love of Tog.

[Mijorre]

To fix Gush, sorcery speed new gush as poked by Quick.

[undone]

Questions like this lead me to believe people dont believe in testing cards ever. Its like asking "Why is library banned" or "Why is bazaar banned" the answer is always the same barring some cards which are boarder line (land tax) I honestly think all questions about the banned list should be closed immediately to prevent idiotic debates like this.

[Surging Chaos]

Gush is like Entomb; both cards look innocent to the untrained eye, but when you actually think about all the applications to use those cards in, then you're like, "Shit... that's ridiculous."

Also:


Gush also lets thresh protect its lands from Wasteland at the steep cost of DRAWING CARDS. I'm fine with where it is

This is TOO GOOD. I was laughing pretty hard for at least a minute and a half, because it's so true.

[Malchar]

It's as splashable as brainstorm. I remember playing against a friend that used blue enchantress with exploration of course. Bounce two tropical islands, draw two cards, replay both land... it could basically go in any deck since everyone wants to use blue.

[AngryTroll]

balancing this card would require something like adding a "Pay 4 life" clause to gush (or maby 5) as is there is no reasonable way to balanace it (even 3 islands is still way OP)

Bouncing three islands might push it into the not-played category (Except for Tog...mmm...+7.5+7/5 for free.....delicious). Two Islands isn't that big of a deal...three islands for two cards in hand is rough. Even if you replay one, you go from 3 mana to only a single Top Activation.



Topics like this should be answered with links to old tournament reports or something, for the love of Tog.

Exactly.

[majikal]

Questions like this lead me to believe people dont believe in testing cards ever. Its like asking "Why is library banned" or "Why is bazaar banned" the answer is always the same barring some cards which are boarder line (land tax) I honestly think all questions about the banned list should be closed immediately to prevent idiotic debates like this.
To be fair the "WHY IS xxx BANNED LOL" topics here are much less brain-melting than the ones on MTGSalvation. Someone over there was trying to argue that Illusionary Mask needed to be unbanned. :eyebrow:

[Surging Chaos]

To be fair the "WHY IS xxx BANNED LOL" topics here are much less brain-melting than the ones on MTGSalvation. Someone over there was trying to argue that Illusionary Mask needed to be unbanned. :eyebrow:

That would be Solaran_X.

He also wants manual dexterity cards unbanned too AS WELL AS:
- Bazaar
- Dragon
- Entomb
- Frantic Search
- Gush
- Goblin Recruiter
- Mana Drain
- Windfall

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3815745&postcount=69

[Nihil Credo]

Everything that needed to be said has been said. As well as something that did not need to.