Extirpating Funeral Glimpses (EFG)

[GGoober]

Here's a deck that I've comed up with after the printing of Mind's Funeral from Alara Reborn. It seems that Mind's Funeral is a strong mill card after an Extirpate on a fetchland. This is one of the few mill decks that are non-Painterstone in origin so for anyone interested, we can work on tweaking and optimizing this list. It's also one of the decks that actually justifies running Extirpate MD.



Extirpating Funeral Glimpses (EFG)
Lands: 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp

Mill cards: 11
4 Extirpate
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mind's Funeral

Counter/Discard: 15
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

Draw/Cantrip: 10
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures: 6
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage/Tombstalker


Sideboard:
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Plague
meta-dependent slots

The idea of the deck is to either get CB-Top lock and safely Glimpse and 'Pate away cards/lands and winning with Mind's Funeral or either Glimpse effect. Extirpating on your opponent's fetchlands is a long-term strategy for a better Mind's Funeral. The deck runs Hymn for disruption, but also to try to hit lands in the yard. Wasteland accomplishes a similar role. Bob is for card draw, and depending on the meta, Tombstalker/Trinket Mage will fill the support role. The deck is very light on threats, so I have yet to tweak the deck to find spot for the Shackles.

Ideally, you could go Extirpate/Glimpse and Mind's Funeral for about almost half of your opponent's library. Against Thresh, Extirpate cannot be countered (blind CB does it but they do not get to activate top). Extirpate is good in removing opposing CB if you countered them, and fulfills a dual role for the deck. In most cases, you simply need to resolve just 1 Extirpate and 2 Mind's Funeral to almost mill your opponent, and with the help of Glimpses, this can be done faster. I'm still testing the list, so for those interested, we can report results.

It's not the best deck and probably won't get far but it's definitely a fresh idea out there :)

[URABAHN]

Extirpate's no good in the deck. No freaking good. Tried it and it sucks. I do think the deck needs Glimpse and you'd better have a way to get rid of creatures like Swords or Snuff Out. The deck is, at best, a casual deck.

[Bourgeoise]

Yeah Urabahn had a similar idea and it failed miserably, my suggestion would be to test it out a bit before trying to find ways to improve it since from what I have heard/seen it is just not fast enough to be viable for legacy.

[baghdadbob]

I like the idea of a mill deck but I don't know if the counter/top shell is the best way to go. Make sure you back plenty of graveyard hate in the sideboard. Some card's that MIGHT be useful are...
Damnation
Tomb Stalker
Reanimate
Snuff out
Smother
Back to basics
Dark Ritual
Good luck with this one I tried it before and it was just too slow.

[rockout]

Why not run jace and main deck propagandas to stall your opponents attacks and gum up the board. Also, you can run Lim Duls Vault in UB and stack your draws to be broken.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Why not run jace and main deck propagandas to stall your opponents attacks and gum up the board. Also, you can run Lim Duls Vault in UB and stack your draws to be broken.

Propaganda doesn't do anything if they are declaring to attack a planeswalker like Jace, keep that in mind. They only have to pay if they attack you.

As for the deck, I'd say you really need more control, and if you do that you could throw in 1 or 2 Haunting Echoes. Past that good luck, but I don't see mill decks doing so well especially against Ichorid, intuition control, and goyf decks.

[baghdadbob]

I think that's a good idea whatever you can do to stall the game out is choice. My list would be something like this...
4x glimpse
2x jace
3x minds funeral
3x propaganda
4x brainstorm
4x mana leak
4x chainer's edict
4x force of will
3x diabolic edict
2x damnation
4x thoughtseize
3x spell snare
20x land
very rough idea.

[GGoober]

I haven't got to testing the deck. It was a theoretical hypothesis, but if Baghdadbob tested Extirpate to be bad, maybe that has to go, but I thought in theory Extirpate on duals/fetches seem like a strong play considering most decks in Legacy run less than 21 lands (NLU builds aim for 20 lands). I agree that Extirpate is horrible in the MD, but in this deck, it actually serves to fuel Mind Funeral, which may justify its place in the MD. One usually wants to Extirpate win-condition or threats, but in this deck, you go for their lands (fetches and duals that you've wasted), making each potential Mind Funeral more potent since you have removed another 2-3 lands out from their library.

The only thing I dislike Jace is you need to protect him. The milling ability of Jace is HORRIBLE in Legacy since you're giving your opponent cards as well, and I doubt you can keep him longer than your opponent has an answer for him (Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Wipe Away, Oblivion Ring, Needle, EE). I do agree that a strategy with Propaganda is worth exploring into. I was more keen on a quick disruption with Hymn + Extirpate protected by counters.

Against GY decks and Ichorid, boarding in Relics with the Mill plan will be much stronger than what they can benefit from our decks (at least if they do not needle relic, which is what your Forces are for).

[URABAHN]

I haven't got to testing the deck. It was a theoretical hypothesis, but if Baghdadbob tested Extirpate to be bad, maybe that has to go, but I thought in theory Extirpate on duals/fetches seem like a strong play considering most decks in Legacy run less than 21 lands (NLU builds aim for 20 lands). I agree that Extirpate is horrible in the MD, but in this deck, it actually serves to fuel Mind Funeral, which may justify its place in the MD. One usually wants to Extirpate win-condition or threats, but in this deck, you go for their lands (fetches and duals that you've wasted), making each potential Mind Funeral more potent since you have removed another 2-3 lands out from their library.

You and I were on the same page at this point, I figured if I could Extirpate 2-3 lands from my opponent's deck, that makes Mind Funeral better. The truth is it doesn't make a bit of difference. Mind Funeral, at CMC 3, is the best one-shot mill effect in the game and Extirpate doesn't make Mind Funeral super amazing. In my testing, what Extirpate doesn't do is save your ass.

What I mean by that is it won't deal with a played Coatl, Tombstalker, Mongoose, Goyf, Dark Confidant, well it won't deal with any creatures and those creatures are going to kill you before you can mill your opponent's entire deck. The the biggest problem with a mill strategy is your aggro matchup. Affinity and Goblins are going to run wild like Hulkamania and you're not going to be able to kill them before they kill you. Neither of those decks see much play, but Zoo decks and Merfolk decks do.

With all that being said, I still think people should try this out on their own, on MWS or something. There might be something I'm missing.

[Clark Kant]

-4 Extripate
+4 Haunting Echoes - THE REASON to play this deck.

Seems perfect.

Maybe play
+3 Traumatize
-2 Glimpse
-1 Funeral
too.

[Mirrislegend]

Seems to me that this begs a long-game control shell: Just try to survive as long as possible, with Mind Funeral and Haunting Echoes as wincons (or pseudo-wincons, with Mishra's Factory doing the long haul). Thoughts on going that route?

[baghdadbob]

You're defiantly right. If this deck is going to play it's going to have to be a hell of a control shell. I played something similar for a while. Jace is not as be as lead to believe at worst he takes 3 damage that you would take... chances are that's not going to happen though if you're running enough creature removal, which you absolutely have to do. He makes your opponent draw a card? You're playing a control shell you should be okay because your drawing more control. Seems like traumatize would be a good idea. If your going to play this in counter/top shell I feel like you might as well be playing painter-grind combo. I feel like with some tweaking this could be really fun deck. Also I would not m.d. expricate. Things to consider...
-Traumatize
-Standstill
-Back to basics
-Tomb Stalker

[Guevera59]

Twincast perhaps? Twincasting a Glimpse seems devastating.

[baghdadbob]

That's actually a damn fine idea.

[gustha]

Hi everyone!
Here's just a draft of a similar idea I was having. I nearly lost in a tournament against a monoB deck with echoes, MD extirpate shade stalkers nyxiatid etc and I think that's the riht way to go. However, maybe focusing more on B than on U could be a strategy.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [MM] Swamp (4)
1 [ON] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Underground Sea

// Creatures
1 [ARB] Nemesis of Reason
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [ARB] Mind Funeral
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [MM] Snuff Out
2 [RAV] Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [BD] Dark Ritual

The shell is in some ways similar to TA (or TE), leaving green (this is a problem postside when we have no kgrip), 18 lands+ rituals, suicide engine and fat stalkers. Stifle for early fetches and some other bad things, to slow doen the opponent and fuel the grave for stalker. Nemesis of reason as a finisher when we have got rid of our opponent's counters&removals. Just some thought, maybe those slots are better used for goyf in TA.

[gregory]

Hi,

i also played arround with a mill deck in a cb/top suit, but its just not working smoothly when you have the pieces online. winning with any beater is just better.

I like the new card pretty much, but the main question this deck has to answer isnt the mill plan itself, its the control body.

I liked the Manadenial plan pretty much.
// 22 Lands
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Spells
Tutor/Draw: 8
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm

Manadenial: 9
3 Sinkhole
3 Stifle
3 Back to Basics

Removal: 7
3 Propaganda
1 Damnation
3 Smother

Control: 7
3 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will

Mill: 8
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mind Funeral

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

So many 3offs :frown: but i dont know what to cut. With Manadenial Propaganda and Tabernacle should be a house.

oh by the way
NETHER SPIRIT is a heck of a dude :). i like his permanent chumpblocking.

[rufus]

Hmm... the approximate expected mill from Mind's Funeral is 240 divided by the number of lands in the deck.
So:
40 lands - 6 cards
30 lands - 8 cards
24 lands - 10 cards
20 lands - 12 cards
18 lands - 13 1/3 cards
16 lands - 16 cards
12 lands - 20 cards
10 lands - 24 cards
...
4 or fewer lands - the entire deck.

Basically, it tears into combo decks like Ichorid, ANT and Belcher, sucks vs Aggro Loam or 43 lands, is comparable to Glimpse the Unthinkable against most non-combo decks that don't run fetches like Dragon Stompy or Merfolk, and a bit better than Glimpse the Unthinkable against ones that do (like Threshold).

AFAIK, Glimpse the Unthinkable doesn't see significant play in Legacy. So the odds are against this making it in an otherwise conventional approach.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What about suspending Nihilith? So much disruption, you get a 4/4 most likely the following turn.

Damnation seems like a good option for board control. You shouldn't ever "rely" on counters so many players know how to play around it. I think countertop/sensei's doesn't belong it slows it down, you have confident and enough ponders to make it work. Replace that with some beaters and a lil control to keep you alive longer.

SB Leyline vs Aggro Loam/43 Land?

[baghdadbob]

I think reanimate as a 2 of is the way to go. Your milling them you grab there fatties seems fair to me?

[Mystical_Jackass]

I was thinking that'd be a great idea too. HOWEVER, the part of me that's hesitant is like... you already run dark confidant and have really thin removal in the deck (thusfar I mean), aka.. you'd prolly need room to take a little bit of a beating.

Just saying, last thing you want is to friggin snuff out, reanimate their fatty losing 5 more life, then get hit again when your confidant draws a force of will/damnation lol. Not even counting the 1-3 damage you might take from fetchlands, I know that's pretty miniscule but hey damage is damage :P Reanimator decks are a lil different, 'cause you might be sacraficing like 7 life but were talking like turn 2 game winning creatures, I don't think this deck can compete with that speed the same way reanimator can.

[baghdadbob]

Do we have to run Bob? I'm thinking the list could take out the Bob's and play back to basics? Something like...
4x Glimpse the unthinkable
2x Twin cast
3x Back to Basics
3x Mind's Funeral
2x Traumatize
2x Jace Berelen
4x Force of Will
2x Damnation
4x Shriekmaw
4x Brainstorm
4x Broken Ambitions
2x Propoganda
4x Spell Snare
Lot's of control not perfect still rough but I think a better idea of what we are hoping for. If we take out the Bob's we have more room for control less damage we take from him as well. I think tombstalker should be in here somewhere also thoughtseize... still trying to find the room.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Back to Basics belongs in sideboard. There's no reason to slow your momentum with it. Even as a sideboard, not to sound like a hater but its sorta slow in this deck compared to decks like Faerie.. and vial decks have a way of playing around it.


I agree about getting rid of Bob. The deck's thin enough on creatures/removal as is, last thing you need is a fragile creature you're not gonna block with. This deck needs something like wall of blossoms, osmething that comes in with an instant affect AND can be used as a blocker... hmm, maybe a good 2-3 shadowmage infiltrator would be a better idea than Bob 'cause not only is he pitchable to Force of will, but he's better suited as a blocker when he comes into play and doesn't drain your life away.
I'm not really sure about Jace either... its like, either you draw a card and he most likely gets killed, or you both draw a card and you help your opponent as much as yourself.. I dunno.
Still though, there's not board control like Damnation.

Get Traumatize outta there though Lol. What'r you gonna play that, turn 8? By then they should either be dead or have like less than 20 cards. :laugh:

[baghdadbob]

I would say -2 tramautize +2 Reanimate (I didn't realize it costs that much lol)

[hi-val]

Why would you Traumatize when you could Haunting Echoes? You also want 4 Mind Funeral, it's 1000 times better than Glimpse. When I was fooling around with the deck, I found that I wanted Damnation and Ensnaring Bridge a lot.

[baghdadbob]

I haven't play tested this deck yet. I had something similar a while ago... maybe 6 months or more. If you know of what you speak then it probably is a good idea. I'm just trying to help. :tongue:

[Jaynel]

Okay, this deck is an absolute pile. That said, here's what I've been playing with:

4 Delta
2 Strand
4 Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
3 Jace Beleren

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 SDT

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Thoughtseize

4 Mind's Funeral (usually 10+)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 Twincast

3 Ensnaring Bridge

Ensnaring Bridge seems kinda poor here, because we're filling up our hands a lot with Jace and Bob, so something else might be good. Maybe more creatures? Tombstalker might fit the bill, or some removal. I've been trying this sideboard:

4 Relic
4 Plague
4 Back to Basics (kinda ballsy, the manabase might need some adjustment for it to work)
3 Echoing Truth/Wipe Away/some removal

[Mystical_Jackass]

If this was me... I'd try something like this to test out:

Lands (20) *yeah, I think any less is not enough. just my opinion tho
8 Fetch
2 Urborg
4 Wasteland
4 dual Lands
1 Swamp
1 Island

Mill (8)
4 Mind's Funeral
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable

Creatures (7)
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Nihilith
2 Trinket Mage

Control (18)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Sinkhole
4 Extirpate
2 Damnation
1 Pithing Needle
1 sensei's divining top

Utility (6)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

==================

Shadowmage can be a blocker, gives card advantage without expense of life, and can be pitched to force of will. Throwing in some trinkets adds a little versatility being able to fetch for needle in situations, engineered explosives can be sideboarded as well. I like the idea using sinkhole more than thoughtseize/duress because... well, it's better synergy: land destruction + extirpate + Mind's funeral. I also like the idea of Nihilith as a beater, you can suspend him turn 2, then brainstorm/play Glimpse the following turn now you got a 4/4 Fatty in play on turn 3 :wink: I also think damnation is an important addition, sinkhole and counterspelling will only slow their progress but eventually you'll have goblins, kird apes, drakes, etc coming at you soon enough, and its just too good not to have :)

[ThatGuyThere]

If I may, it seems to me the strength of this type of deck (er, if it has one) is that it attacks something few decks have invested defenses in - the library.

And as someone mentioned - unless they have a really good board position, Glimpse or Mind Funeral plus Haunting Echoes is a pretty solid win - particularly if it's followed up by a second Glimpse or Mind Funeral.

What about a control-ish build, trying to keep the other guy from doing much? [Glimpse / Funeral] + Haunting Echos don't have to be back-to-back to be pretty solid. Combine them with some protection or (my casual favorite) Boseiju to make sure they resolve, or even some U/B Stax-like build using sorceries for the win?

One problem being, of course, how damn useful a graveyard tends to be in the meantime, before it's removed. Maybe Yixid Jailer in the side to keep ourselves from giving certain archetypes more resources?

I dunno. I'd really like to see milling become viable, but the problem is, up until a mill deck wins, it's really only enabling about a dozen other playable cards ('Goyf, Mongoose, Cabal Therapy / Flashback, Dread Return, Bridge from Beyond, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold). Trying to have a plan to deal with everything the deck accidentally turns on while setting up to win might be... ...tricky.

[Mr.C]

What about Guiltfeeder as a finisher? Seems solid, especially with all the milling. It has fear, and you only need to hit once.

[DrJones]

For some reason, I think Chains of Mephistopheles could work in a deck like this.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I dunno. I'd really like to see milling become viable, but the problem is, up until a mill deck wins, it's really only enabling about a dozen other playable cards ('Goyf, Mongoose, Cabal Therapy / Flashback, Dread Return, Bridge from Beyond, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold). Trying to have a plan to deal with everything the deck accidentally turns on while setting up to win might be... ...tricky.
Bridge from below*

Yea I hear ya man. But remember, maindecking extirpate with split second you can remove those same threats, and they aren't able to respond while its on the stack. You can always sideboard Leyline too, if you see it working against you, ya know

But like, if you checked out the decklist I made you have Daze & FoW early to at least disrupt them to buy you a turn against those early threats you mentioned; sinkhole could work the same, set them a turn back. It'll just disrupt them long enough to buy some time, but I even mentioned mixing in cards like Nihilith + Mill, you can unsuspend a 4/4 beater on turn 3 ontop of milling them 10-20 cards :) That's good synergy. Damnation's gotta have a place too, you can mill them down to 5 cards but if they kill you the next turn 'cause you lossed control of the board you get no kudos points for coming close lol


What about Guiltfeeder as a finisher? Seems solid, especially with all the milling. It has fear, and you only need to hit once.

He'd be pretty gnarly, I love him in EDH in multiplayer games and all. But the mana cost is pretty much only prob. converted mana cost 5, keep in mind your mana base is at best 30%, so you're looking on average like turn 7-10 by the time he can actually attack. There's not enough disruption/support to pull that off, which is why I didn't even include Patriarch's bidding 'cause I think it's just too slow without some form of excel like mox's/ritual/bloom/etc.
He's also succeptible to removal the 2 turns before he can swing, whereas you play something like Glimpse you're guaranteed it'll have an immediate effect.

[ThatGuyThere]

What about Guiltfeeder as a finisher? Seems solid, especially with all the milling. It has fear, and you only need to hit once.

A resolved Haunting Echoes with 10-12+ random cards in the 'yard is game right there. Plus, Guiltfeeder + Haunting Echoes are at cross purposes.

So the question then is, which is deadlier, a Sorcery that says, "If you have the better board position, you win the game", or a creature that says, "Attack once (and don't get blocked or removed or stuff like that), and you win the game"?

...seriously, I dunno the answer there. I'm *guessing* Haunting Echoes, because I think there's *probably* less to do about it once it resolves. But damned if I know. But whichever answer the deck chooses, the other one belongs in the sideboard, probably, because they both take (for the most part) very different answers (er, counterspells excepted).

[Bazaroco]

Hello,

i like this idea a lot. Using glimpse, mind funeral and extirpate is something i would really like to try.

Have you considered playing standstill and stuff like propaganda to stall the opponent? And adding the painter/stone combo? If you would like more milling you can add memory sluice too...

Regards

[ThatGuyThere]

I think the only answer is a U/B/? control deck, almost Stax / Landstill, that freezes down the 'board, then uses Mind Funeral / Haunting Echoes as the finisher.

I'll note that this has the advantage of never needing to actually get an attacker through, so playing mass-removal (Deed, Damnation, Mutilate... ...er, whatever else...?) isn't that bad.

Probably use The Abyss (since you don't want / have creatures anyway) to replace Landstill's Moats. And, uh... ...other... ...stuff?

...Jeez, I dunno. Seems like a lot of work, and there's still no good answer to "why?". It won't be faster that Landstill, I wouldn't think, or particularly "better" at it than Landstill. So, why bother?

...hmmmm...

*goes to read the Landstill thread again*

[gustha]

Why not run the best black creature of the format, aka tombstalker? I'm testing a list like this: needs refinement:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Island (2)
1 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 [ARB] Nemesis of Reason
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [ARB] Mind Funeral
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [BD] Dark Ritual
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [RAV] Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 [TE] Propaganda
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [PLC] Extirpate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth

It resembles a Team America with the insertion of some stuff like mind funeral and glimpse. waste and stifle helps to screw opponent (and feed the grave for pate-echoes), propaganda/snuff out keeps us safe against fast aggro, and stalker...well...it's a wincon, what else? Also, seize+tourach are prettu good engines for the deck. I really miss sinkhole, I'm sure it fits in the deck. Reasons why I don't play 4 funeral 4 glimpses: well, simply milling and milling the our opponent's deck is (pardon me), stupid. I played a similar deck (without MF), with traumatize echoes and so on since glimpse was printed, so I know the frustrarion of being beaten by every fast aggro and every combo and every deck that could apply some pressure on t2-3 (turn by which we've [i]mayebe cast a glimpse or two). Milling is a good strategy but it can't be the focusing part of the plan. It has been said that mind funeral attacks a part of the game in which player normally do not pay attention (the number of the cards, but as a landstill player, I do care much), and that's true. But focusin exclusively on that plan will leave us uncovered against alla the threats that come from the field, that's where legacy battles are fought. So if the milling is a good strategy, I prefer an approach more concerned about obtaining first hand, then board control; then we are free to begin milling our opponent's resources, while he spends his last trying to remove the huge flying black clock form the board. One of black-based worst defects is that at some point they finish their resources and go in topdeck mode. This does not happen when the opponent finds a good portion of his deck into his grave (and it is not ichorid! ^^). Waste lock prevents loam shenanigans too, or at least stops them till echoes. Ritual provides the acceleration needed (19 lands + ritual). Despite the high number of cantrips, sometimes we go to topdeck mode too, though.

[ThatGuyThere]

Why not run the best black creature of the format, aka tombstalker?

Um, because he does nothing to the opponent's library? ...or graveyard?

Combining creature-attacks on the lifetotal with sorcery-attacks on the library is going to lead to a confused pile that isn't sure how it's supposed to win.

...that said, that'd make a neat sideboard option.

I'm toying with this, so far only in my head - with thanks to the Landstill crowd -

Manabase - 23
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
7 Island
2 Swamp

Removal - 10
3 Engineered Explosives
3 The Abyss
3 Damnation
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Permission - 10
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

Draw - 10
4 brainstorm
4 top
1 jace
1 fact or fiction

Tutor - 2
2 Mystical Tutor

Win - 5
3 Mind Funeral
2 Haunting Echoes

Damnation instead of Wrath, Abyss instead of Moat, and Mind Funeral / Haunting Echoes instead of Mishra's / Decree.

...

Man, even saying that makes it make less sense. ...why the hell are we doing this, again?

Oh yeah. Fun. :tongue:

[Maveric78f]

Say gg to mishra. You'd want to play it yourself.

I try it myself:

Manabase - 23
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland

Removal - 10
1 Engineered Explosives
4 The Abyss
4 Damnation
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith

Permission - 10
4 Force
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

Draw - 7
4 brainstorm
3 jace

Tutor - 3
3 Intuition

Win - 6
3 Mind Funeral
2 Haunting Echoes
1 Crucible of Worlds

[ThatGuyThere]

Say gg to mishra. You'd want to play it yourself.

...

Say, there's an idea. Duh. Thanks.

[gustha]

Um, because he does nothing to the opponent's library? ...or graveyard?

Combining creature-attacks on the lifetotal with sorcery-attacks on the library is going to lead to a confused pile that isn't sure how it's supposed to win.

...that said, that'd make a neat sideboard option.

I'm toying with this, so far only in my head - with thanks to the Landstill crowd -

Manabase - 23
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
7 Island
2 Swamp

Removal - 10
3 Engineered Explosives
3 The Abyss
3 Damnation
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Permission - 10
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

Draw - 10
4 brainstorm
4 top
1 jace
1 fact or fiction

Tutor - 2
2 Mystical Tutor

Win - 5
3 Mind Funeral
2 Haunting Echoes

Damnation instead of Wrath, Abyss instead of Moat, and Mind Funeral / Haunting Echoes instead of Mishra's / Decree.

...

Man, even saying that makes it make less sense. ...why the hell are we doing this, again?

Oh yeah. Fun. :tongue:

it just seems to me you feel the same urgence to take a huge board advantage, making the deck a confusing pile of mass removal and some mind funeral, with some landstill base. Tombstalker applies a rediculous pressure on the board, while we keep it clear with removal/propaganda, and we take hand control with our discards (you don't have any hand control factor, that's a pity since black offers the best options about that!). one of the best intuition of Team america is that it pairs hand control with board control, mana denial and permission altogether, and I won't call that just a pile of cards...we can just throw away green and go with milling instead of beating. Your deck has nothing to do but wait and wait and wait and remove (sorcery speed...) and then mill some cards. a pair of duress and your deck's gone...

[pi4meterftw]

The trouble is you need the list to do something that landstill and other related "control shells" don't. After you've locked down, how is it better to win with 12 cards dedicated maindeck to mill than it is to just win with 1 decree of justice or 1 isochron scepter?

You need to bring something to the table that isn't already there, otherwise the deck is just a cute trick.

[sdematt]

I've been working on this list, and it's been decently successful:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Watery Grave

4 Fog Bank
4 Nemesis of Reason
4 Wall of Denial

4 Lim Dul's Vault
3 Brainstorm
3 Mind Funeral
3 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Propaganda
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Damnation
2 No Mercy

Board:
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Extirpate
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle


I've beaten quite a few decks with the wall lockdown, along with the No Mercy and Propaganda. Then, all I did was Glimpse and Mind Funeral (I hit a Thresh deck for 26 cards with Mind Funeral...ouch!) and then I'd wait for the Echoes. I also played 2 Traumatize, which can be backbreaking, especially when followed by Haunting Echoes. My two cents

Matt

[Mystical_Jackass]

Yea man, that Wall of Denial was one of the few cards that friggin blew my mind when I saw it. I was like, wow... 0/8 flying shroud for 3..!!!!?? NOTHING's gonna get past that lol

[baghdadbob]

I really like that build however I would probally drop down to 2 nemesis of reason add an additional glimpse and maybe ee.

[ScatmanX]

Why 69 cards? Can't find anything to cut?

[sdematt]

At the moment, yes, I can't find any cuts, in fact, I want to add. I've got another version; I'll post it in Developing Competitive soon.

[ScatmanX]

I've been testing, even at 69, the deck looks cool.
Guess the Dazes were the worst part though.. didn't like them at all.

And Nemesis of Reason is the bomb. I cutted to 2, but goig to test with 3 or 4 again.

[Amber VII]

Haha, I great to see a competitive milling deck on the boards! At someone is keeping the dream alive. ;)

With that said, 69 cards will not work at all. Looking at your decklist:

Cut No Mercy (-2), Daze (-4), Nemesis of Reason (-2), Lim-Dual's Vault (-2), add Brainstorm (+1). That should put you at 60 cards.

Rationale:

No Mercy: Between the Wall of Denial, Fog Bank, Damnation, and Propaganda, No Mercy is overkill. In fact, even if you face predominantly creature heavy decks, what you have left is still a little much.

Daze: It doesn't belong. You need to build up your mana base and Daze will not help you get there.

Nemesis of Reason: Between this and Haunting Echoes, you don't need that many kill conditions.

Lim-Dual's Vault: It seems odd to run the Vault in a deck which isn't combo? Wouldn't this deck be better served running Ponder or even Impulse?


I also have my own millstone deck I've been working on. It's significantly more budget than yours and is mono-blue. I would post it here, but I don't want to clog up your thread.

[Darkenslight]

What about this deck?

Grinding Your Mind

Land
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 USea
3 Tundra
4 Arcane Sanctum
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Plains

Control

4 FoW
4 Counterspell
3 Propaganda
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Spell Snare

MANS!

4 Wall of Denial
2 Nemesis of Reason
2 Guiltfeeder

Grinds

4 Mind Funeral
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Memory Erosion

EDIT: after some testing on MWS, This is quite strong; best play all night was curving out for their entire deck (Gobbo slow draw FTW! :p) Hit the Propaganda Turn 4 to slow dowm for turn 6 win...Hints are to play againsst control and draw against aggro, for some odd reason. Can't imagine why!

[Mokaod]

Hi All,

I got intrigued by Mind's Funeral during some casual play last weekend. a 3cc card knocking out 24 cards is awesome. The reason why I started to think about a deck to abuse it in. I discovered this thread on my primal Legacy source, and started reading.

Untill now I see mostly countershells as control engine in this thread. Maybe if we change the gameplan a little it could take control of the board faster and more efficiently (in a more "black way" aswell) so the mill engine gets more time to get online. I thought about teaming the broken card up with LotV/Helm, but since that deck is quite slow and adding this mill engine in would only be win-more I quickly dropped the idea.

I'd like to suggest to go more LD/discard. No land to play stuff with or having nothing to play at all is just as controlling as countering everything, and since black is quite good in LD/DC I started thinking (with my mono-B-Pox build in mind since that is quite the amount of board control I'd like to see..).

Sample Build:

//land (20, needs finetuning, just threw something together)
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory (serves as alternate kill)
4x Underground Sea
3x Island
5x Swamp

//Creatures (3, alternate kill)
3x Tombstalker

//Mill for the kill (10)
4 Mind's Funeral
3 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Haunting Echoes

//control (14)
3 FoW
3 Mana Leak (/Spell Snare/Daze?)
4 Propaganda
4 Diabolic Edict (/Innocent Blood/Abyss?)

//Handcontrol and LD (13)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress (/Thoughtseize)
2(/3) Smallpox
4(/3) Sinkhole

Some things to think about (MD and/or SB):
Leyline of the Void
Damnation
Pithing Needle
Powder Keg
Extirpate
Crucible of Worlds
Trinisphere
Cantrip (Brainstorm/Ponder)
CB/Top?
Cabal/Dark Ritual

I left out fetch/cantrip because as far as i can see almost everything is a good draw in topdeck mode. Especialy post-board.

The biggest problem i see when running this build is decks with an abnormal amount of land since that renders Mind's Funeral almost useless. Hence the addition of the Tombstalkers and Mishra's. TS got added due to it being quite some pressure on your opponent aswell. A 4 turn clock is always nice and filling your graveyard will not realy be a problem (not taking in account the fact this deck needs at least 5 lands on the table to be able to play the killcon).

Some questions that crossed my mind while playing the deck:
- Is LD/DC the right way to go?
- Is 3 stalkers together with mishra enough to be used as alternate kill?
- Diabolic Edict is the only direct instant speed removal. Is this enough or also run Smother or another spotremoval?
- Should I support LD/DC more and drop counter completely?
- Does Smallpox fit in as support for LD/DC (and the occasional beater-removal), since it is symmetrical and hits us too as a result?

Tnx for your processing time ;)

Grrr Mokaod

[Darkenslight]

I'm beginning to wonder whether running cards such as Jester's Scepter and the Cap would be appropriate in this deck. Is this a possibility?

[Mokaod]

I'm beginning to wonder whether running cards such as Jester's Scepter and the Cap would be appropriate in this deck. Is this a possibility?

Why not MD Leyline of the Void effectively making all your mill effects untargeted caps? And arent you affraid these get wasted before you can play the effect? I mean.. Mana usage is high, so watch out for Daze, Mana Leak, and so on. Also, the amount of hate is enormous. Disenchant, Krosan Grip, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Vindicate, etc.. Not even to speak about Stifle effects..

I think those will be a dead draw more often than they see play. Reason for me to stamp em both with the no-go-stamp and look further. :cool:

Just my 2 cents ofc. Could be completely wrong, but the person who convinced me to go play Legacy and helped me develop a sence of what cards are cool in Legacy would say "Danger of cool things" I think. And that sums it up quite nicely imo.

Greetz Mok

[Mokaod]

Hi People,

I found another card which could fit in. It could be used to clear the enemy library of some land so that Mind Funeral will potentially knock more cards off the top of the lib. It could ofc also be used to give a full creaturehate hand since we dont play any that are part of our killslots. Tested the card on MWS against a friend and the card was good when i was able to play it.



Head Games :b::b::3:
Sorcery

Target opponent puts the cards from his or her hand on top of his or her library. Search that player's library for that many cards. The player puts those cards into his or her hand, then shuffles his or her library.


What's your impression?

We probably need to add rituals besides possible moxen then to be able to play fast, but i was already playing those while testing to make Haunting Echoes easier to play and to try to speed up the deck.

but, I already noticed while testing speed is the real issue in this deck. I couldn't get it to work fast enough to cope with a Tier1 Legacy deck... Any thoughts on how to achieve more speed?

Also, untill now I've been testing the mill-setup in both heavy blue control and black ld/dc. I've been more content with the blue control shell, but i'm not sure ofc. Any thoughts on this?

Grrr Mok.