[Deck] Coatl Loam

[gamegeek2]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGALARA_REBORN/LorescaleCoatl.jpghttp://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGRAV/life_from_the_loam.jpghttp://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGTEM/intuition.jpg

Coatl Loam

--- List 1: UGb Loam ---

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Tarmogoyf/Terravore
4 Lorescale Coatl
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Pernicious Deed/Engineered Explosives
3 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam

--- Sideboard ---
4 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt/Engineered Plague
1 Wasteland


How is this different from ITF?

This deck is more of a Loam deck than a Control deck. It has high numbers of cycling lands, which have excellent synergy with Lorescale Coatl (the namesake creature). It has a similarly strong long game, but its creature arsenal is much more impressive, easily able to outdo Tarmogoyf (which can be excluded in this deck).

[ebbitten]

Accumulated Knowledge does look tempting with intution and loam, but it also looks to be a bit of overkill. This deck looks like it has plenty of card advantage, (AK, Counterbalance and Loam+ cylcing lands) but probably not enough disruption. I'm thinking you want some more ways to interract with you're oppenent outside of 4 STP 4 FOW and cbtop. Not entirely sure what to suggest but there are plenty of good 3cc drops in those colors depending on your meta (RWM for aggro, Vendillion clique for combo/control, trygon predator against enchantment or lock decks).

[gamegeek2]

The large amount of draw is necessary to fuel Coatl. Though I do agree that the deck needs more ways to interact. I'll probably put AKs in the side.

[conboy31]

How has the threat density been for this deck? With only 7 creatures (less than even some of threshs 8 creature counterparts) and loam for the possibility of dredging creatures to your GY it seems like the opponent may not need to take care of many of your creatures.

I know SDT mitigates the loam issue, but all they need is a goyf standoff and kill the coatl's. This might be easier said than done. Maybe 1 Wonder?

[DrJones]

I don't understand what's doing Life from the Loam in there. Also, autoscoop against Island Sanctuary is no good.

[zulander]

I don't understand what's doing Life from the Loam in there. Also, autoscoop against Island Sanctuary is no good.
... Who plays Island Sanctuary again?

[DrJones]

I was going to use Moat in the example, but then I might be giving the impression that this deck loses to good, expensive cards, that people actually play, which apart of being overkill would look like as if the inherent weakness in the deck was more due to Moat being powerful than the deck being terrible.

[whienot]

Wouldn't Loam interfere with Counterbalance? Sure, it can remove 'junk' from the top, but once you have a solid top 3, why would you want to loam away a lock?

I do like the deck though. It seems the most capable of busting the balls off of Coatl. I played around with the list and had Coatl up to 16/16 for it's first attack.

I could see this turning into a turboland like deck with Coatl as the big ass that wins. Exploration, Crucible, Burning Wish....

[gamegeek2]

Yeah, this is much better at growing Coatls than the Gro lists others saw.

Again, this is a rough draft, it needs work. I also had fears that the counterbalance lock may be less effective due to dredge. It may just not have enough stuff. Maybe a Krosan Reclamation?

Let's list the stuff that's definitely staying:

25 Lands

4 Goyf
3+ Coatl
4 Intuition
2+ Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Maveric78f]

Why 2* LftL ?
Why not play the Reliquary ? Looks like it would completely fits the deck.
AK looks also quite meh in a deck that has already all the tools to win long-term games. I also agree when one says that it is a pity that the deck folds to a resolved artifact or enchantment.

[Brushwagg]

I've been thinking of a list as well. I'm not sure on the Counter Balance, because it eats up slots and with a good number a land in the deck I'm not sure it can be very effective.

Also I'm not sure what is the right color to splash right now as well.

I'm still working on my list but here's a very rough cut

4x Goyf
3x Coatl
2x Knight of Reliquay

2x Intuition
4x Brainstorm
3x LFTL

4x STP
2x E.E
4x Mox Diamond

4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell

Mana base to be worked out.

[eq.firemind]

Why white here?
I know StP is awesome, but IMHO black is better. It gives us Raven's Crime, Shriekmaw and Volrath's Stronghold.

Another thing is to add Academy Ruins + Engeneered Explosives for even better Intuition piles.

Stronghold/Ruins + Counterbalance = nice tech

I don't think we need Accumulated Knowledge to power Coatl. It's like early Tarmotresh lists with Tarfire.

All this stuff needs a lot of space, but we need >20 blue cards to power out FoW. This leads me to the suggestion that FoW is suboptimal here. I will start my attempts from this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23153) loam control deck. My goal is to make a deck not trying to win with "Look, HUUUGE snake!" as soon as possible, but to make a deck that says "Hey, this snake will be HUUUGE and you can't do a thing to stop it."

[gamegeek2]

Your point is valid. I thought that might make this like ITF too much, but black does seem necessary for threat reasons.

Accumulated Knowledge is another blue spell to pitch to FoW, another reason for its inclusion.

What would the changes look like, precisely?

-4 Swords
-4 Heath
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Tundra
-1 Savannah
+4 Delta
+2 Underground Sea
+1 Bayou
+3 Pernicious Deed
+1 Explosives
+1 Ruins
+1 Stronghold
+3 Other Cards

Counterbalance is indeed proving subpar. Removing it would make room for more blue cards - the question is, which ones?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Your point is valid. I thought that might make this like ITF too much, but black does seem necessary for threat reasons.

Accumulated Knowledge is another blue spell to pitch to FoW, another reason for its inclusion.



I like Sylvan Library over AK. Sylvan Library gives you an additional +2/+2 a turn for the same 2cc card over and over again, while filtering your draws, and in a major jam you can keep more of the cards (just pay the 4x life).

I think White is good. With Knight of the Reliquary, it gives you the shuffle effects that work so well with Library and Brainstorm.

Force of Will does NOT need 20+ blue spells to be played. 16 including the 4x Force of Will can be sufficient. I'd run 18 blue spells, as that's always been perfect for me. Also, AK is horrible with Force of Will, as you REMOVE it from the game. Making that one useless and the other 3 you run worse than they already are.

StPing a goyf or a bigger Coatl or even Knight can put you out of reach of Tendrils if they don't see it coming.

Also, 3x Explosives along with Intuition and Ruins is simply wasted deckspace. 1x EE in the main is fine.

I like the V's Stronghold thing also in Loam builds.

There's also Horizon Canopy, which I think has a significant amount of synergy with the list as it sacs, pumping reliquary and Coatl at the same time.

There's more, but I g2g, I'll post later...

Pce,

--DC

[Anusien]

Isn't Tog better here? It only requires one turn in play to be lethal instead of 4.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Pithing Needle and every graveyard hate card and bounce spell known to magic wants a word with you...

[ThatGuyThere]

Isn't Tog better here? It only requires one turn in play to be lethal instead of 4.

'Tog isn't all that good at going half-way. If 'Tog eats your hand and yard, then bites it before finishing the opponent, he's pretty much finished you.

But a snake who hits and dies has still gotten about a quarter of the job done. And you've got more snakes. And the rest of your deck.


Pithing Needle and every graveyard hate card known to magic wants a word with you...

Troo, dat.

[Anusien]

Pithing Needle and every graveyard hate card and bounce spell known to magic wants a word with you...
In this deck, a vulnerability to graveyard hate isn't a reason to not run a card. Pretty sure the smart opponent is going to Needle Lonely Sandbar or Top, not Tog.
But while we're making stupid arguments, Psychatog is immune to Perish!

[Jeet]

I like Sylvan Library over AK. Sylvan Library gives you an additional +2/+2 a turn for the same 2cc card over and over again, while filtering your draws, and in a major jam you can keep more of the cards (just pay the 4x life).

Sylvan Library also gives you free dredges for loam without paying any life and keeping your draw. I think this synergy should also be considered.

[quicksilver]

Sylvan Library also gives you free dredges for loam without paying any life and keeping your draw. I think this synergy should also be considered.

No it doesn't.

"At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

So if you choose to use the sylvan library you have to put up to two cards drawn this turn back, which means you will be putting back the other card you drew with the library plus the card you drew for the turn unless you pay life.

[Happy Gilmore]

If you like growing Coatl run Sylvan Library. It will simulate more draw than anything you could do with intuition/loam.

[Jeet]

No it doesn't.

"At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

So if you choose to use the sylvan library you have to put up to two cards drawn this turn back, which means you will be putting back the other card you drew with the library plus the card you drew for the turn unless you pay life.

My bad, I guess you have to pay the 4 life to keep a card and get a dredge. It's still not bad.

[morgan_coke]

Actually, no, you don't if you replace multiple library draws with dredges. It's a corner case rules nazi issue, but under current oracle wordings, it works. I forget the technical reasons why it works this way, but iirc, it has to do with the dredge draw being a replacement effect.

[quicksilver]

Actually, no, you don't if you replace multiple library draws with dredges. It's a corner case rules nazi issue, but under current oracle wordings, it works. I forget the technical reasons why it works this way, but iirc, it has to do with the dredge draw being a replacement effect.

If you dredge and want to keep cards in your hand you will have to pay 4 life for each card. Now you can dredge up to three times and not have to pay life, but if you dredge, then you still have to pay life for each card you want to keep. There is no way to draw a card (and keep it) and dredge without paying life.

[Dark_Cynic87]

In this deck, a vulnerability to graveyard hate isn't a reason to not run a card. Pretty sure the smart opponent is going to Needle Lonely Sandbar or Top, not Tog.
But while we're making stupid arguments, Psychatog is immune to Perish!

You're just mad because you're wrong.

It's absolutely a reason not to run a card that thrives on it's controller's card disadvantage in a deck that's already vulnerable to graveyard hate. You need to reassess your perspective on the deck. By using Tog, if you remove part of your yard from the game, you run the risk of having to lower the size of your KotR and your Goyf. And if you do lower them, and they SToP your Tog, you just put yourself at a real disadvantage.

If I see Tog drop, and my opponent is also playing lonely sandbar and has a Top out, I'm gonna needle the Tog, and then make it eat the first piece of removal I get my hands on. I remember when Tog was THE force to be reckoned with in Legacy, and Type 2 for that matter, and if left undealt with can and probably will end you. It's a must block, can easily get bigger than goyf in a list like this one where you dredge once, even two and once in a blood moon 3 times a turn. I will hit the Tog over the other two over 90% of the time, possibly more because I can't come up with a scenario in which this isn't true. I wish more players were like you. I could still be playing my old Tog list without anything to fear, as long as I dropped in tops and lonely sandbars. This of course would be to make them name something other than tog.

BTW, don't forget that tog pitches to Force. :rolleyes:

Pce,

--DC

[Media314r8]

Cephalid coleseum seems to fit right in a deck that wants to draw cards and runs loam+intuition.

[Anusien]

[QUOTE=Dark_Cynic87;342144]It's a must block, can easily get bigger than goyf in a list like this one where you dredge once, even two and once in a blood moon 3 times a turn. I will hit the Tog over the other two over 90% of the time, possibly more because I can't come up with a scenario in which this isn't true./QUOTE]
You can't dredge three times a turn if you can't cycle your cycling lands.

[Pee-Dee-2]

If you dredge and want to keep cards in your hand you will have to pay 4 life for each card. Now you can dredge up to three times and not have to pay life, but if you dredge, then you still have to pay life for each card you want to keep. There is no way to draw a card (and keep it) and dredge without paying life.

Are you're sure that it doesn't work. I've looked at the oraclewording and found this:

"If you manage not to draw cards or draw less than 2 cards, you do not lose life by not putting the undrawn cards back. Thus, you can use Mangara's Tome to get a card or two instead of drawing and avoid having to put cards back. [Aahz 1996/10/21] Abundance can also be used to avoid draws and cause no loss of life. [D'Angelo 1998/10/15]"

Abundance is an example for a replacment effect. I think Dredge works the same way, doesn't it?

[ThatGuyThere]

Abundance is an example for a replacment effect. I think Dredge works the same way, doesn't it?

As long as you replace all three of your draws.

If you draw any cards this turn, you'll have to put (at least two) of them back. But if you draw less-than-two, you don't have to pay life for the "missing" cards.

Eg - Draw card, Sylvan Library -> Dredge, Sylvan -> Dredge = Have to put the one card you drew back. Can't put a "second card" drawn this turn back, so no lifeloss.

Dredge x 3 = Can't put any cards drawn this turn back. No lifeloss.

You'll virtually never replace all three draws in this deck - there aren't enough Dredge cards. Too bad there's no blue Dredge. And / or another good green Dredge card.

Edit - Moldervine Cloak...? ...no.

[rufus]

The text of Sylvan Library is:

"At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

Because of the "For each of those cards" clause, if you don't have any cards that were drawn this turn for whatever reason (Zur's Wierding, Maralen of the Mornson, Dredge, Chains of Mephistopholes...) , then you don't have the choice, and there's no 4 life loss.

Other cards, like Brainstorm or Ideas Unbound don't specify that the cards that are put back, or discarded, are the ones that were drawn.

Of course, if you do replace the draw, then you don't get to put counters on the Coatl.

Technically, if you've drawn cards during the upkeep (e.g. with Brainstorm) then you could be forced to make a choice for two of those cards.

[quicksilver]

The text of Sylvan Library is:

"At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

Because of the "For each of those cards" clause, if you don't draw the addional cards for whatever reason (Zur's Wierding, Maralen of the Mornson, Dredge, Chains of Mephistopholes...) , then you don't have the choice, and there's no 4 life loss.



The card you drew for your turn counts as one of these cards. So even if you skipped the extra two draws due to a replacement effect, you still have your regular draw to put back on top of your library.

[AngryTroll]

Is Coatl really that much better than Terravore in this deck? Sure, Terravore dies to Relic of Progenitus, but it has evasion and is a much better topdeck. Plus, they'll both probably be lethal in two or three turns. Both are set up with the Loam engine; it reminds me of the old Dryad versus Goyf argument. Dryad gets bigger over several turns, but Goyf is a much better topdeck.

Is this deck better than Aggro Loam? It's basically a question of some combination of Terravores and Countryside Crushers versus Lorescale Coatls. Both decks are going to hate Countebalance for two; this deck has Brainstorm and Intuition, but AggroLoam has Devestating Dreams, Burning Wish, and Seismic Assault.

[rufus]

You'll virtually never replace all three draws in this deck - there aren't enough Dredge cards. Too bad there's no blue Dredge. And / or another good green Dredge card.

Other draw replacement also works, it seems like the primary candidates are:
Words of Wilding
Words of Waste

Moreover, if drawn cards are out of your hand for some other reason, then they don't count. For example, if the first card you've drawn is an instant like Summoner's Pact, Evolution Charm, Impulse, Peer Through Depths, Piracy Charm, or Telling Time, then playing it response to Sylvan Library could work in your favor if you replace one of the Sylvan Library draws. You could also play a non-draw discard effect like Wild Mongrel or Survival of the Fittest. This doesn't work for the cards drawn off of the Library trigger because you can't play them in the middle of the effect.

[Brushwagg]

You don't want to put to much into just making the Coatl big. It should get there pretty much on it's own.

A little revised. Looked over the Aggro Loam thread and borrowed some stuff.

4x Goyf
3x Coatl
2x Tombstalker
3x Shriekmaw

2x Intuition
3x LftL
3x Ancestral Vision/Harmonize/Concentrate

2x E.E.
4x Counterspell
4x Chalice of the Void

4x Mox Diamond
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Lonely Sandbar
2x Windswept Heath
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Academy Ruins

[gamegeek2]

Counterspell is not what I was looking for in the open slots.

I really don't like the looks of Sylvan Library, as many have said it's just focusing on growing the coatl.

[Brushwagg]

Counterspell is not what we're looking for.

Nice input. Most of page 2 arguing over how Sylvan Library works and I post a list to help move the thread forward and it gets that? WTF! At least offer a replacement.

@The list: I might try to fit Tolaria West in. -1 Wasteland. It's starting to find more and more things in the deck. Might be to mana intensive though.

[gamegeek2]

Allright, what about taking out AKs for Standstills? Suggestion from snorlaxcom.

[AngryTroll]

You don't want to put to much into just making the Coatl big. It should get there pretty much on it's own.

A little revised. Looked over the Aggro Loam thread and borrowed some stuff.


Speaking of Aggro Loam...is Brainstorm and Intuition > Burning Wish, Devestating Dreams, and Seismic Assault? That's a question probably worth answering.

Aggro Loam isn't held back by a lack of awesome 3-drop creatures. Unless this deck answers the same problems that AggroLoam faces, it will fall into the same category as AggroLoam.





4x Goyf
3x Coatl
2x Tombstalker
3x Shriekmaw

2x Intuition
3x LftL
3x Ancestral Vision/Harmonize/Concentrate

2x E.E.
4x Counterspell
4x Chalice of the Void

4x Mox Diamond
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Lonely Sandbar
2x Windswept Heath
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Academy Ruins

This deck trades tutors (Intuion for Burning Wish), trades bombs (Devestating Dreams, Seismic Assault) for, um, Ancestral Visions/Harmonize/Concentrate, does some intersting things with the creatures (Crusher and Terravore for Coatl and Tombstalker), and adds Counterspells over more bombs.

Are Coatl, Goyf, Tombstalker, and a smattering of Shriekmaws better than Goyfs, Crushers, and Terravores? Is the Intuition Engine better than the Burning Wish engine? Are Counters better than DD or Seismic Assault? Does this deck beat combo or CounterBalance set at two?

These are the main questions to be answered. If the answer is yes, then we're onto something. If the answer is no...then maybe this isn't so exciting.

[lordofthepit]

Regarding the Sylvan Library/Life from the Loam interaction, I think I have it figured out, but I'm not a DCI judge.

Barring any card draws during your upkeep (Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, etc.), you'll draw your card normally during your draw phase, and then potentially an additional two cards via the Library. If you choose to combine the Library with the dredge ability of Loam, one of two things happen:

1) If you drew your normal card, you're going to have to either pay 4 life or return it.
2) If you replaced your normal card draw to dredge, then you can replace your next two card draws with dredge as well.

It doesn't seem that there's any way to get more than 1 card draw during your draw phase (and 2 dredges) without paying 4 life. At least not as a result of this interaction.

[Dark_Cynic87]

[QUOTE=Dark_Cynic87;342144]
You can't dredge three times a turn if you can't cycle your cycling lands.

Oh really? I may just be wanting a bagel with my coffee...


Cephalid coleseum seems to fit right in a deck that wants to draw cards and runs loam+intuition.

and furthermore, from my first post on this thread...


There's also Horizon Canopy, which I think has a significant amount of synergy with the list as it sacs, pumping reliquary and Coatl at the same time.

There are ways around this needle thing on a cycler, not to mention we are in a conversation talking about Needling a Lonely Sandbar over an resolved Psychatog. This conversation is nonsense and I won't participate in it anymore. I know that against aggro loam, it's a good plan to name their cyclers, but coatl loam runs blue and as such is capable of being more flexible in how and when it draws cards.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: Library works like this: Go to your Draw phase. Your card draw triggers, Library triggers. With 3 card draws on the stack, you decide if you are going to dredge. The first dredge you do will replace your regular draw from your draw step. If you only dredge once, you draw two additional cards after you dredge, and then put those two cards back unless you pay 4 life each. Then you go to your first main phase.

ORACLE TEXT FOR SYLVAN LIBRARY:

At the beginning of your draw step, draw two cards, then choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card back on top of your library.

[Anusien]

EDIT::: Library works like this: Go to your Draw phase. Your card draw triggers, Library triggers. With 3 card draws on the stack, you decide if you are going to dredge. The first dredge you do will replace your regular draw from your draw step. If you only dredge once, you draw two additional cards after you dredge, and then put those two cards back unless you pay 4 life each. Then you go to your first main phase.

ORACLE TEXT FOR SYLVAN LIBRARY:

At the beginning of your draw step, draw two cards, then choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card back on top of your library.
Card draw does not trigger or go on the stack. At the beginning of your draw step as a special action, you draw a card. This does not use the stack and cannot be responded to. The triggers go on the stack and then active player gets priority.

Sylvan Library wants you to put back 2 cards drawn this turn. If you only draw two cards, you have to put them both back or pay life. So if you dredge for one of your draws, you'll have only 2 cards drawn and 2 cards you need to put back or pay life for.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Semantics. I simply worded it in a way people who aren't "rules gurus" could understand. How I said it is accurate in the functional perspective.

Pce,

--DC

[johanessen]

This deck trades tutors (Intuion for Burning Wish), trades bombs (Devestating Dreams, Seismic Assault) for, um, Ancestral Visions/Harmonize/Concentrate, does some intersting things with the creatures (Crusher and Terravore for Coatl and Tombstalker), and adds Counterspells over more bombs.

Are Coatl, Goyf, Tombstalker, and a smattering of Shriekmaws better than Goyfs, Crushers, and Terravores? Is the Intuition Engine better than the Burning Wish engine? Are Counters better than DD or Seismic Assault? Does this deck beat combo or CounterBalance set at two?

These are the main questions to be answered. If the answer is yes, then we're onto something. If the answer is no...then maybe this isn't so exciting.

I was asking me same questions...

Okay. We first have better pairing against combo if we if we go fow and spell snare/daze/cs, or maybe balance. if we don t run deeds (and forget black).

I think this list could go UG with no splashes.

Why dont we run more creatures. terravores and coatls are not incompatible. Something like this..
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Terravore
2 Eternal Witness->Maybe it calls black for volrath sh.

I think maindeck Mox Diamonds is a viable option.

[Brushwagg]

@Angry Troll: You bring up some very good points and testing the deck is the only way to get the answers. I'm hoping to do that this week and next.

@Straight U/G: You limit your options greatly. It makes E.E. pretty bad and if there is the lack of removal if need be.

@Counterspell: Possibly Stifle makes it in for fetches. Not sure.

@Red: Also an option. Burning Wish is very powerful. Red also opens up other cards ie: Devesting Dreams as mentioned. Again testing will prove more helpful then just talking about it.

[sunshine]

@Sylvan Library and dredge:

I don't see how this interaction differs from Sylvan Library + Abundance, if the draws are replaced you shouldn't need to put any cards back. If at least two of your three draws are replaced with dredges you aren't able to choose two cards drawn this turn simply because you won't have drawn two cards yet (in the same vein as Sea Drake not bouncing any lands if you only control one when it is played, perhaps?).

[gamegeek2]

Updated the list. AK gone in favor of Standstill, added 2 Trygon Predator and 2 Stifle.

I just want to know if Sylvan Library forces you to pay life/put back cards if you dredge. If it doesn't, I could definitely see it in this deck. If not, it'll stay out.

Mox Diamod just seems unnecessary. This isn't going to play Chalice main; Brainstorm is very good in this deck.

[johanessen]

Why we need 3 wastelands? I think one or two copies are okay since we play Intuition.

Also, i dont like stifles in this deck. Maybe Spell Snare, or adding Tops¿

[gamegeek2]

Spell Snare or Stifle. Stifle serves the double purpose of protecting us from Tormod's Crypt.

-1 Trygon Predator
+1 Stifle

Intuition is this deck's strongest engine. You can set up pretty much whatever you need, given Life from the Loam and its recursive possibilities. Don't cut down on them, it's what gets this deck rolling.

[johanessen]

And how is the match-up against combo?

[gamegeek2]

I haven't tested it yet - maindeck we have 3 Stifle and 4 Force for resistance, as well as Wasteland to potentially disrupt them. Both Goyf and Coatl are fast clocks. I intend to put 4 Chalice in the sideboard; our lack of Counterbalance means the matchup isn't as good as it is for other Blue Goyf decks.

Stifle is a very useful card - it not only stops fetches, it stops Wasteland, Crypt/Relic, and Explosives/Deed, among other things.

[HammafistRoob]

Coatl Loam
Main-60
//Lands-24
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

//Creatures-11
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
(1 Wonder?)
//Spells-21
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Life from the Loam

//Permanents-4
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top


Sideboard-15
4 Krosan Grip
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus

Just my take on Coatl Loam, I figured I'd share and maybe give my fellow sourcers some new ideas for the deck.

[Anusien]

Semantics. I simply worded it in a way people who aren't "rules gurus" could understand. How I said it is accurate in the functional perspective.

Pce,

--DC
When you discuss the rules, semantics are incredibly important.

I agree regarding Terravore. I feel like any time when you've already Intuitioned for Loam, setting up a Terravore is going to be far superior to setting up a Coatl; the Terravore has Trample and is just bigger. It would be extremely difficult by Loaming to outgrow Terravore with Coatl. If you want to run the Snake, I think Sylvan Library will prove to be crucial.

[HammafistRoob]

But Drawsteps, Brainstorms, Ponders, and Tops make the Snake huge not Terravore.

[Dark_Cynic87]

This Coatl vs. Vore conversation reminds me of the Dryad vs. Goyf argument when goyf came out.

Creatures that build up +1/+1 counters seem regularly inferior to creatures that have */* in their p/t boxes. I suppose it's all about what you want to play be it more tempo or more disruption. However, I believe we can draw more cards in a game than a list like aggro loam runs lands for their yard.

@ Anusien: Semantics when discussing rules is important. However, it loses much importance when explaining how it works in an easily understandable way for most people. As long as the description of how it works causes the people to play it correctly, semantics are an unnecessary element to the conversation.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

This deck can easily play Terravore. The reason it doesn't is because it has a sufficient threat count already (though I could easily see something going out for it). Coatl gets bigger than Terravore - +3/+3 per turn with full-on Loam, +3/+3 from Brainstorm, +3/+3 from Standstills, and even AK (which got cut because it was excessive).

Also, please note that Coatl is a blue spell to pitch to force.


Coatl Loam
Main-60
//Lands-24
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

//Creatures-11
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
(1 Wonder?)
//Spells-21
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Life from the Loam

//Permanents-4
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top


Sideboard-15
4 Krosan Grip
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus

Looks good, though I really don't like Relics in the board - the grave is crucial to this deck.

[quicksilver]

@Sylvan Library and dredge:

I don't see how this interaction differs from Sylvan Library + Abundance, if the draws are replaced you shouldn't need to put any cards back. If at least two of your three draws are replaced with dredges you aren't able to choose two cards drawn this turn simply because you won't have drawn two cards yet (in the same vein as Sea Drake not bouncing any lands if you only control one when it is played, perhaps?).

No it is not like Sea drake. Sea drake requires two TARGETS, and the ability won't go on the stack if there are not two targets. Sylvan library works more like hymn to torach. If you hymn your oponent with only one card in hand they still discard it even though they cannot discard two. If you draw once and dredge twice you have to put the card you drew back. Sylvan library does not target those cards you have to put back as many as you can up to two.

[memnarch]

@ Anusien: Semantics when discussing rules is important. However, it loses much importance when explaining how it works in an easily understandable way for most people. As long as the description of how it works causes the people to play it correctly, semantics are an unnecessary element to the conversation.

Pce,

--DC

lol this is some Semantic meta meta meta shit.

Your earlier point about +1 +1 counter creatures is valid. Do you think creature bounce like wipe away will be stronger now? Now that the snake will most certainly show up in the meta.

@HammafistRoob that list looks really solid there! and Wonder would be nice these guys could use evasion!

-EDIT: wait a sec only 2 top and no main deck counterbalance, why not? doesn't the top have the potential to AT LEAST add a counter every turn. And with two out at best puts on a counter for 1 mana.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Helm of Awakening, Coatl, top, top, fling...lol.

Drawing cards with Top would be insane. Attack with a 2/2 Coatl, they block with a 5/6 Goyf. You tap top, draw into Brainstorm, Brainstorm for whatever and you have a 6/6 Coatl. Insane combat trix for the win...

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

Yeah, Brainstorm has insane synergy with Coatl. But it alone is not enough.

I just feel the deck has too much going on to fit CounterTop in. Stifle buys it needed time, and stops grave hosers.

Wonder seems almost necessary due to the presence of Moat. Though that's also what the singleton predator is for, that can get Swordsed. So yes, a singleton Wonder seems like a good idea.

Also, I'm surprised at the discussion this deck has generated. Maybe this is the right way to break Coatl after all.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think something like:

4x Goyf
3x Coatl
2x KnightotR
1x Trygon
1x Wonder
1x Eternal Witness

4x FoW
3x Daze/Spell Snare (depends on how heavy your meta is with CB/Chalice)
4x Brainstorm
3x Sylvan Library
4x StP
3x Intuition
2x LftL
2x Krosan Grip//Rushing River/Wipe Away (any mix, change basix to match)

1x Wasteland
4x Strand
2x Heath
2x Trop
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Cephalid Coliseum/Horizon Canopy
1x Tabernacle/Glacial Chasm
2x Lonely Sandbar
2x Secluded Steppe
1x Tranquil Thicket

This is rough, untested and a bit scatterbrained. It's along the lines of what I've been visualizing in my head though...

IDK. It's a mess right now, any input? Does this look like a direction to go?

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

I just see Library as being an expensive way to grow the coatl extra, which is the reason that AK got cut, and AK drew massive numbers of cards in addition to growing the Snake.

List updated

-3 Standstill
+2 Spell Snare/Daze
+1 Wonder

[Dark_Cynic87]

Library, is in essence a brainstorm every upkeep, gives your Coatl an extra +2/+2 each turn, AND helps you know if you want to dredge or not via a cycling land. It's going to be good, no doubt about it.

I'd like to be able to re-use the Witness, but all I can think of is black with either Unearth, or the more likely candidate of Volrath's Stronghold.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

I guess 2 Library. What to cut though?

Also, Terravore does seem like it would give the deck more threat power, and it's a very consistent threat. Maybe as a 2-of.

[gamegeek2]

Updated:
-2 Daze
+2 Library

[Dark_Cynic87]

2x Library? So you guys don't think it's good enough to even be run as a 3-of so that you have a good chance at seeing one a game? That seems crappy.

Pce,

--DC

[troopatroop]

2x Library? So you guys don't think it's good enough to even be run as a 3-of so that you have a good chance at seeing one a game? That seems crappy.

Pce,

--DC

You're wrong, it's not crappy. Library is really bad in multiples. You will often see it at 2x, but very rarely see both of them, which is the logic behind it. It's a slot that goes to cards that are good in multiples. Seems like sound logic to me.

[gamegeek2]

It's like Cruel Ultimatum in Standard 5CC - you want to see it at some point, but you don't want it in your opening hand. However, you have so much card draw that you'll see it at some point in the game even if you only have two.

This deck draws a LOT of cards.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Library is good in multiples. It stacks to where you see more cards. If there's one, draw 3, 2x draw 5, 3x draw 7, 4x draw 9. I don't see where you get off saying it's not good in multiples.

I understand this deck draws lots of cards. That's kind of the point. All I'm saying is that it's a draw spell that doesn't get screwed over by CB or a Chalice all the time, and with Coatl being a 3cmc card (giving it a good chance to resolve through a CB), it's good enough to test as a 3 or 4-of in the control matchup IMO.

I guess I don't really care if you play it, it just seems like you aren't seeing all of the applications of the card. The sooner you see it the better. It can really help your early game when you are blowing up fetches and cantripping into your removal and protection to stabilize your board control. It gives that additional filtering and pump that will feed your Coatl without costing you anything, as well as the option of saving your brainstorms for combat trix. Brainstorm is now a permanent Giant Growth as well as everything else it's so good at.

Pce,

--DC

[quicksilver]

Library is good in multiples. It stacks to where you see more cards. If there's one, draw 3, 2x draw 5, 3x draw 7, 4x draw 9. I don't see where you get off saying it's not good in multiples.


Sure you can draw 9 cards with 4 if you want to pay 32 life. If you don't pay life or have a shuffle effect in between you are just seeing the same exact cards you just saw. It's like activating top 5 times a turn, sure you get to see 15 cards a turn, but it's just the same three cards over and over and it's completly pointless.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Sure you can draw 9 cards with 4 if you want to pay 32 life. If you don't pay life or have a shuffle effect in between you are just seeing the same exact cards you just saw. It's like activating top 5 times a turn, sure you get to see 15 cards a turn, but it's just the same three cards over and over and it's completly pointless.

only not pointless because the idea is to grow coatl and it does that quite well.

[quicksilver]

only not pointless because the idea is to grow coatl and it does that quite well.

If you don't have a coatl it's pointless, and if you do it's very suboptimal.

[Dark_Cynic87]

If you don't have a coatl it's pointless, and if you do it's very suboptimal.

If you don't have Coatl and you get to see three cards down each upkeep, and then use shuffle effects to change the cards on top of your library, in essence it helps you FIND Coatl. If you already have Coatl, it draws you 2 extra cards a draw step each turn for each Library in play. Then you put them back if you don't want to pay the 4 life, but it still pumps the Coatl +2/+2 for each library out regardless of whether or not you keep the cards from Library. Not only that but it will then allow you to save your Brainstorms for more opportune moments to pump your Coatl instantly while cantripping for answers to other situations. Library can land before CB if you are on the play (and you have Forces to protect it), which could help immensely in any matchup that includes CB. This is what I mean when I say that some people don't understand the card.

Pce,

--DC

[Aggro_zombies]

Speaking of Aggro Loam...is Brainstorm and Intuition > Burning Wish, Devestating Dreams, and Seismic Assault? That's a question probably worth answering.
Why not all of it?

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring / Cephalid Coliseum
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

4 Countryside Crusher
3 Lorescale Coatl
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

3 Intuition
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
3 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Worm Harvest
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 Jund Charm
SB: 4 Krosan Grip

This is what I've been playing for months now, with the exception of Coatls, which have basically replaced Terravores. They grow more slowly here, but more consistently as well, since you can get a lot of mana into play and then draw-draw-dredge, Loam, draw-draw-dredge multiple times per turn. The majority of the deck has proven itself, but I'd like to try Coatls as a less vulnerable version of Terravore.

[gamegeek2]

@aggro zombies, the original version did have all of it, but that was just too much search and not enough actuall stuff. So I settled on black for Stronghold and Deed.

And that list is bad. Needs moar Goyf.

[Dark_Cynic87]

A singleton Coliseum is all the draw you have other than your upkeep and the loam engine. That looks expensive. You are trying to do too much in that list. KISS (Otherwise known as K.I.S.S. :cool: ).

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: Coatl isn't a less vulnerable Terravore, it's just vulnerable to different things. Terravore is actually much better in your list because of how many lands you play and how many of them hit the yard. Terravore hits play big. Coatl takes work to grow, requiring cantrips and more draw for the mana, which is why I'm advocating the use of Library along with the Loam engine and cantrips. The amount of draw is rediculous, and can grow Coatl big really fast. Library turn 2, Coatl turn three, by the time you can swing with it turn four, it's at least a 5/5, and more if you Brainstorm (+3/+3)/Ponder (+1/+1)/Cycle (+1/+1). That's bigger than most goyfs.

Also, Doubling Cube + Doubling Season = Savage Tech for Coatl. :rolleyes:

[gamegeek2]

I may sound crazy, but should Goyf be cut? In favor of Terravore?

(How dare I blaspheme against Tarmogoyf, requesting one of his brethren instead)

[Aggro_zombies]

I may sound crazy, but should Goyf be cut? In favor of Terravore?

(How dare I blaspheme against Tarmogoyf, requesting one of his brethren instead)
I find it amusing that you're posting this after calling my list bad because it doesn't run Tarmogoyf.

Whether or not you run him depends in a large part on what the alternatives are. Goyf is a big, cheap beater. My pre-Alara Reborn list had a plethora of big, cheap beaters, and Goyf was by far the worst one. I cut him out months ago to make room for more powerful cards.

[gamegeek2]

I find it amusing that you're posting this after calling my list bad because it doesn't run Tarmogoyf.

Whether or not you run him depends in a large part on what the alternatives are. Goyf is a big, cheap beater. My pre-Alara Reborn list had a plethora of big, cheap beaters, and Goyf was by far the worst one. I cut him out months ago to make room for more powerful cards.

I definitely saw the irony there, it's just that I kinda had to leave for a piano recital.

But I would like others' opinions on this - should Goyf be cut? In favor of Terravore?

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think you should leave in Tarmo-Wall. It's funny and fitting that the "best creature in the game" doesn't die to itself; Tarmogoyf perpetuates its popularity on this concept. Terravore won't be bad, and if used should be in addition to, not instead of goyf.

Pce,

--DC

[StoicAngel]

Building on popularity? Now thats some funny stuff right there. Sorry had to comment on that.

@gamegeek,

1) would you please post a current list...I would love to see if this puts up a fight to mwc.

2) Comparing Goyf/Terravore....goyf will allow the quick kill and terravore will take some set-up time. If you can lock the board up quick terravore over goyf otherwise goyf over terravore.

[gamegeek2]

Well, I see two possible lists at this point: UGR and UGb.

I update the OP when I make changes. I'll make a UGR list soon.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Building on popularity? Now thats some funny stuff right there. Sorry had to comment on that.


Hilarious.

/offtopic.

Here's what I've been testing:

CREATURES: 11
4x Goyf
3x Coatl
4x Dark Confidant

SPELLS: 28
2x LftL
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Library
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterbalance
3x SDT
4x Thoughtseize

LAND: 21
2x Lonely Sandbar
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Delta
2x Mire
1x Island
1x Swamp

I don't have a sideboard as I haven't figured out exactly what I need.

I haven't decided if I like the CounterTop combo in here, it takes up room that I could use otherwise. I've never really enjoyed CB though, so that probably makes a difference.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

Yes, Pulses. Again, deckspace is a question.

[Aggro_zombies]

Library continues to be cute but bad. If you're going to run anything, make it Counterbalance and Top.

[StoicAngel]

What about running more instant draw "TfK" in a fling version? The fling would at least allow a response when they StP coatl in that dreaded counter war.

[gamegeek2]

Library continues to be cute but bad. If you're going to run anything, make it Counterbalance and Top.

My original opinion. I still think Library is inferior to Top.

[Maveric78f]

DC:
15 blue cards?

-1 LftL +1 intuition
-4 library +1 intuition +2 counterspell
-4 counterbalance +1 Coatl +3 Spellsnare

There you hav 20 blue spells, which is enough for FoW.

I'm not sure thoughtseize belongs to the deck neither since you want your first turn as an instant for SS.

[johanessen]

21 Land cards including 5 cycleland?

[Dark_Cynic87]

15 is only one card short of what the low count recommended is, which is 16. It does fine most of the time. I've been pitching Brainstorms more than I would like, but the Libraries help with that, as does top-->confidant.

Also, I don't like the "tempo" build of whatever you are trying to do with the list I'm testing. Try it out before you swap crap for other crap.

I'm more of a fan of the discard route than I am the spell snare simply because of the added information I get when one resolves. Plus, it can nab a force or pre-emptively hit a StP. Best play for me so far has been:

Turn 1: Land, Thoughtseize (may try duress as the lifeloss is certainly relevant).
Turn 2: Land, Library, go.
Turn 3: Land, Coatl.
Turn 4: Land, pump Coatl to a 5/5, swing with Coatl for 5.

This game I got to Maelstom Pulse away two Tarmogoyfs and my Coatl got huge.

I'm keeping the libraries. They have served me well so far paired with Bob. Don't play them if you don't want to, but paired with Loam and Fetches, they have been phenomenal.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

Well, this is a blue version. I've also had the feeling that 25/26 lands was way too many.

[Pelikanudo]

Well I propose this :

3 Flooded strand
1 cephalid coliseum
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Lonely sandbar
3 Windwept Heath
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Tundra
2 Tropical island
4 Wasteland

//24

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Life from the Loam
//16

4 Knigth of the reliquary
4 Lorescale Coatl

// 8

4 Senseis divining top
4 Counter balance
4 Mox Diamond

//12

[gamegeek2]

No swords?

[Blitzbold]

What I don't get is that there is no love for Mox Diamond which helps powering out Aggro Loam's threads faster. Lorescale Coatl is a nice thread, but I'd hate to tap out on turn 3 to do nothing more but cast it.

[gamegeek2]

Half of the versions of this deck are basically Loam Control decks, the other half are blue-red loam lists.

Let's start with the basics of the deck, guys.

2+ Tranquil Thicket
2+ Lonely Sandbar
3 Wasteland

4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf/Terravore

4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2+ Life from the Loam

[Dark_Cynic87]

A list with 4x Wastes should not have CounterTop in it (argued either way). I thought that was a given.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

Right. I think Wasteland is a better card to pair with Loam than CounterTop. Everyone's prepared for CounterTop nowadays anyways.

[gamegeek2]

Added UGw list. Gonna make a UGwb list. Knight of the Reliquary is really, really good, worth splashing good. Black for extra explosives power, potential Deeds/Pulses, and Stronghold (a very important card).

Looking to make a deck along the lines of:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Stifle
2 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Other Card

[gamegeek2]

Added the UGwb list posted above.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think that's trying to do way too much. Intuition is good, but when the list completely hinges on it I find that to be very dangerous.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

It's just as reliant as ITF is. I may need to add more cycle lands, the 1 other card could be another Loam.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It's just as reliant as ITF is. I may need to add more cycle lands, the 1 other card could be another Loam.

Agreed: Intuition should not be the problem with the list posted above. What might prove problematic, however, is the manabase. With 17 lands (counting fetches but not utility-lands), two basics, four colours, and 8 non-mana lands, I would not be comfortable piloting the list: it would take very little to cut you off from white, black, or blue long enough to ensure that your multi-coloured threats and control elements didn't have the time they needed to do their work. It also means that you need to be doing a great deal of setup in order to achieve a dominant board position, a setup which requires precious time and suffers few setbacks. In this respect, I think that Academy Ruins (for example) is much less preferable than Shriekmaw, or even possibly Cabal Pit, which require less setup within the deck's framework. By the same token, the draws that Ruins and Stronghold eat up are really quite significant, and so you can't be expecting to use them consistently. That's why a stronger emphasis on other control elements is preferable (in this deck, that plays out in terms of multiple copies of EE and Pulse). Still, I think that much more can be done on this front, especially if a colour is dropped (for me that's white, but if you're sold on KotR, then I think it has to be black).

In my opinion, the black splash can enable you to do just about anything that the white splash does. Although you do lose some KotR tutoring, you can easily make up for that by tinkering with your creature base. The loss of KotR and white also makes it much easier to re-tool the manabase, thereby opening up more deck space.

On the up-side of things, I truly think that's the direction that needs to be taken with Coatl. Indeed, that's the direction that I've been testing (with very positive results) with my UGB Intuition-Thresh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=347579&postcount=83). The two decks are very similar, and UGB Intuition-Thresh has been through a number of the same issues in testing already (e.g. cycle-lands, etc.). If you want to play without white, I think that's very much the way to go. With white, on the other hand, I would replace the Pulses with Oblivion Ring, or some such card. The downside, of course, would be that Stronghold would be lost, which might mean some creative tweaking to achieve the same effect(s) (Gigapede, Genesis, and Etched Oracle leap to mind). If I were to stay with white, I'd also opt for Academy Ruins recursion (making Oracle a strong choice). But I'm not at all convinced that Stronghold and Ruins fit very well together in the same deck--or, at least, in this deck. You can achieve with Stronghold what Ruins does and vice-versa, but aiming for both really dilutes your talent-pool, so to speak. I'd rather concentrate on one to the exclusion of the other.

Lastly, not to toot my own horn, I think that Noble Hierarch constitutes a coup for any deck hoping to effectively progress into the 3+ cc-range. If you opt for the white splash, Hierarch is perfectly on-colour, and allows you to drop Coatl and KotR on your second turn. This makes a crucial difference to your aggressive capability, but also to your response-time with KotR (playing KotR a turn early means one less turn for your opponent to draw an answer, and increases your likelihood of using its ability at least once). If you go black, then the same principles apply: the increased speed and resiliency are extremely useful. Even if you decide to keep the cycling-land engine (which I think is excessive, especially with Intuition), that extra mana early on in the game makes a great deal of sense.

There's obviously room for a number of variants on the themes exploited by these two decks, but I strongly believe that moving beyond three colours seriously limits the strength and resilience of the deck(s) in question. Personally, I prefer going UGB because of the versatility of its arsenal (Deed, Pulse, Shriekmaw, Genesis+Stronghold, etc.), and the huge boost in (Counterbalance-proof) tempo that you get from Snuff Out. With an early Hierarch on the board, the black splash is quite impressive.

/end horn-tooting

[gamegeek2]

Allright, Black then. And we'll stick with it.

Removed white and white-black lists. Changes to black list:

-1 Explosives (reads "3 Deed/Explosives")
-1 Academy Ruins
+1 Shriekmaw
+1 Bayou

Four colors isn't particularly more consistent than three colors, it simply allows you to play actual (non-blue) basics.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Allright, Black then. And we'll stick with it.

Removed white and white-black lists. Changes to black list:

-1 Explosives (reads "3 Deed/Explosives")
-1 Academy Ruins
+1 Shriekmaw
+1 Bayou

Four colors isn't particularly more consistent than three colors, it simply allows you to play actual (non-blue) basics.

Well, to be fair, it doesn't mean that I'm right, either. I'm clearly biased. :smile:

One of the main additions that comes from black, however, is Snuff Out, and that's not to be neglected. It's a perfect replacement for the StP slot, and the fact that it gets around Counterbalance makes it very desirable.

I'll bow out now, though, because there are any number of better players and deckbuilders than me on here, probably including you. I'm a minnow in the ocean, and I tend to get excited by silly ideas. Nonetheless, I do think that going to UGB makes the most sense.

[gamegeek2]

Well, there's now an ITF aggro thread that this is competing with. Lol, they're so similar...

[gamegeek2]

Removed Stifle for Thoughtseize