View Full Version : [Card discussion] Swords to plowshares
thefreakaccident
05-06-2009, 01:42 PM
I know that this may seem crazy, but I am starting to doubt this card for the first time in my legacy career.
It started when I was arguing with anusian (sp?) in the NLU thread about the possible lists therein. It was then that he stated that both the cards swords to plowshares and dark confidant were bad cards.
Obviously, I was on the other side... but testing is supporting his side of the argument more and more for me.
It seems that with the format's creatures usually being run in smaller numbers (less than 13 usually), you would be better off running other options (such as vindicate, explosives, something to take their threats... etc.)...
I have not yet cut swords entirely from any of my lists, but I have actually began cutting down on the numbers a bit (2 swords usually), as the 'speed' is often unnecessary (goyf comes down earliest turn two, nothing ever comes down turn one that is a creature anymore).
So... I guess the question should be presented:
Is swords to plowshares as good as it used to be, or are people just still holding onto 'old tech' because they are used to running it?
nitewolf9
05-06-2009, 02:08 PM
Swords to Plowshares is still the most versatile and efficient creature removal spell ever printed. If you are facing the aggro control mirror all day long it might not be as good as something like Sower or Shackles, but there are other decks in legacy (and Swords still kills tarmogoyf there). Swords has a lot of power against aggro decks in particular, which tend to put up good numbers against blue based aggro control if built properly. It also lets you kill things in the face of mana denial.
Also, not being able to answer a turn 2 Confidant outside of countermagic can certainly lose you games. I can see why one might want to make an argument against running the card in favor of more powerful, more situational cards, but if you want a card that kills creatures I still don't think you can find a better option.
StP is nearly tied with its most important target, Tarmogoyf, as being the 3rd most played non-land card in Legacy. Both cards are splashable, extremely undercosted, and there are no replacements.
Against weenie decks, Swords can be played early enough to stop the bleeding. Against low-threat count decks, StP buys valuable time when it does hit and often forces decks to proactively answer StP before they can win, but more importantly StP acts as a form of tempo, whereby your opponent is spending more resources to play and protect a threat than you spent to answer it.
Swords enables mana curves to be warped, maximizing control/disruptive characteristics in aggressive decks that otherwise should never be able to afford it. Like Force of Will, it fundamentally alters deckbuilding and the general metagame, it is that powerful. It is offensively (as disruption and breaking stalemates) and defensively extremely versatile and relevant throughout the game.
StP is an instant speed 1cc answer to the most commonly played win condition type in the game. It keeps a lot of decks in check. It even acts as a bluff card and wins combat trix on the stack in imaginative ways that a sorcery speed answer just couldn't.
Swords is still format defining, and it is proportionately well ahead of the power curve when compared to any substitutes we would consider. Before PtE (which is card and sometimes tempo disadvantage), I think you would have a tough time even imagining what the format would look like without the card (not that an StP-less Source Tourney is the way to go about it).
To put it further into perspective, I can't name a non-combo competitive deck that hasn't considered splashing white for StP (if it doesn't already). It isn't dogmatic to try splashing for StP, it is common sense to learn from the historical success of the card.
Doubt not.
peace,
4eak
StP is nearly tied with its most important target, Tarmogoyf, as being the 3rd most played non-land card in Legacy.
I'm assuming you're talking about DeckCheck stats. In that case, Goyf has only been around since mid 2007, while they're adding up StP stats since early 2004.
Goyf is played much more than StP. It is probably the most played card in Legacy at the moment.
I'm assuming you're talking about DeckCheck stats. In that case, Goyf has only been around since mid 2007, while they're adding up StP stats since early 2004.
Goyf is played much more than StP. It is probably the most played card in Legacy at the moment.
Perhaps. Your point would be more relevant, but it doesn't take into account how much Legacy has grown, nor how little was actually recorded in that 2.5 year gap.
You've failed to consider that the vast majority of Legacy results on deckcheck start with 2007 or later. Seriously, go look. You'll see that the past 6-9 months of Legacy events recorded on deckcheck encompass most all of the recorded events between 2004 and 2007.
I've even spoken with the site admin this past week about grabbing his full Legacy database, so when I get it I can give you more proof.
StP is still played in quantities on par with Tarmogoyf.
peace,
4eak
DragoFireheart
05-06-2009, 04:32 PM
I guess we have to ask ourselves this question:
If we are playing white, is there a reason to NOT run swords? What non-pure combo deck that runs white would not want a 1cc instant speed removal?
The next best things are Path to Exile (which gives tempo, arguably a far worse draw back then some life) and Unmake (which is 3 W/B in casting cost).
Swords is as much of a staple for it's color as Force of Will for Blue, Tarmogofy for green, Lightning Bolt for red and....
What is black's staple? Thoughtseize?
Malchar
05-06-2009, 04:49 PM
I am on the side that questions the use of Swords to Plowshares. Perhaps the main reason that I see it being justified is that white has a lot of other great utilities to add, as opposed to black. Black is the other great choice for creature removal, but black lacks enchantment and artifact removal completely. The other reason that it is so easy to use Sword to Plowshares is because a deck can easily splash into both black and white, getting the best of both worlds with the choice black cards being Dark Confidant, Duress, and Tombstalker to name a few.
I think that there is something to be said for Snuff Out. It has some serious advantages over Swords to Plowshares. First off, it casts for zero as long as one has access to black. This can be quite significant early on in the game. Further, the life loss is comparable to the life gain from Swords to Plowshares. Aggro decks should be especially willing to take the life hit rather than turn the opponent's Tarmogoyf into a Loxodon Hierarch. I always cringe when I see goblins using Swords to Plowshares along with the white enchantment removal suite as opposed to the more modern black + green splash.
Secondly, Snuff Out straight up dodges Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. When the opponent gets out a Sensei's Divining Top + Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares is kaput.
If the game goes late, Snuff Out can simply be played normally to avoid any life swing.
In my testing, I have observed two disadvantages with Snuff Out. First, it can not deal with Tombstalker, which can be a real problem because not many things can deal with Tombstalker. The other great choice is Mystic Enforcer, but that is a white card so one would have access to Swords to Plowshares anyway. Also, it can not deal with Dark Confidant, but this is not such a large problem as it is a fragile card to begin with.
The second problem is that in dire situations, it can be impossible to pay the alternate cost. Also, it can be bad in certain situations if it is the only spot-removal card in the deck such as against Goblins. Swords to Plowshares is definitely more oriented towards a control style deck, whereas Snuff Out may be better-suited to a tempo style. Finally, it is not possible to pool the colored mana and play a Snuff Out (using the alternate cost) when Magus of the Moon shows up. Then again, if the deck can be trimmed down to two or three colors, the Moon might not be as devastating when compared to trying to pilot a four-color deck.
lordofthepit
05-06-2009, 04:58 PM
Not at all. I've changed my main deck from UGr Threshold to UGw Threshold just to be able to run Swords to Plowshares (and some Oblivion Ring). I think as decks are trending towards more fatties (Goyf, Coatl, etc.), Swords will actually shine more. That's been my experience so far.
Esper3k
05-06-2009, 05:37 PM
I guess we have to ask ourselves this question:
If we are playing white, is there a reason to NOT run swords? What non-pure combo deck that runs white would not want a 1cc instant speed removal?
The next best things are Path to Exile (which gives tempo, arguably a far worse draw back then some life) and Unmake (which is 3 W/B in casting cost).
Swords is as much of a staple for it's color as Force of Will for Blue, Tarmogofy for green, Lightning Bolt for red and....
What is black's staple? Thoughtseize?
Maybe Dark Confidant or Dark Ritual?
Anusien
05-06-2009, 07:02 PM
If you really really want to trade 1 for 1 with creatures, Swords to Plowshares does it. The deck in question doesn't want to trade 1 for 1 with creatures.
I really like Spell Snare a lot because it stops Goyf but more importantly, Counterbalance. I find that removing Tarmogoyf is pretty easy to do without dedicating slots to it.
Malchar
05-06-2009, 08:59 PM
As a quick final comment, if decks are tending toward larger creatures, Snuff Out will quickly outclass Swords to Plowshares in terms of the amount of life-swing.
SomeRandomDude
05-06-2009, 09:06 PM
But you can't Snuff Out you own creature when you're low on heath to gain life :tongue:
n00bas4urus_r3x
05-06-2009, 09:48 PM
As a quick final comment, if decks are tending toward larger creatures, Snuff Out will quickly outclass Swords to Plowshares in terms of the amount of life-swing.
Won't the trend towards larger creatures just negate that life swing? To play Snuff Out for free, you still have to pay 4 life. That might be better than taking the hit from a 5/6 goyf, but I've never lost a game I can recall because of the life swing from swords.
memnarch
05-06-2009, 10:11 PM
It kills lacky on the draw very important. It is kinda killed by counterbalance nowdays. One of the many reasons balance is so great. And also chalice. But so many other decks don't play it that its still worth running almost no matter what with a white mana, unless your combo or something.
I just had a kinda random thought though what do you think about running ghost quarter and path to exile with a loam deck? thats just evil no? seems like you could really lock the mana out after applying a blood moon effect.
eq.firemind
05-07-2009, 01:08 AM
Any Goyf Sligh in your metagame? Any Eva Green in your metagames? Any Tombstalkers in your metagame? Any Bobs in your metagame? Any Goblinz in your metagame? Most people will answer "yes" on 2 or more questions and IMHO the thing will not change in future.
Again, how would you replace Swords in UWx Landstill?
That's why Swords to Plowshares is still people's champion and will not going anywhere. Hek, I've won some games against Dredge just by removing their Ichorids.
Arctic_Slicer
05-07-2009, 01:22 AM
The life gain for your opponent can be significant especially if you just removed a large creature such as Tarmogoyf. What I haven't seen discussed is if Swords to Plowshares is better than the much newer Path to Exile. Giving your opponent an extra land can be bad but if all you need to do is remove their blocker to attack for the win then the extra land is likely to be less relevant than the extra life.
New cards are printed all of the time and every set usually adds a few cards that affect the Legacy metagame. The presence of new cards requires the reevaluation of old cards; sometimes the old cards fail to withstand the test of time and need to be retired in favor of newer cards that have taken their place. There is also metagaming concerns where the new cards are sometimes better than the old cards and sometimes they are worse but always worthy of consideration. The best Legacy deck builders are the ones who are able to adapt and make the best of the old and new cards to compete in an ever changing Legacy Metagame.
Tacosnape
05-07-2009, 11:36 AM
Path to Exile is card disadvantage. Swords to Plowshares is life disadvantage. As of yet, I haven't seen evidence ever suggest that card disadvantage isn't a bigger penalty than life disadvantage.
Alternately, Swords to Plowshares is lifegain. I've survived more than a few games by STP'ing my own creature.
thefreakaccident
05-07-2009, 12:11 PM
The cards that I have been replacing swords to plowshares with have been cards that provide a better ability to control the board state... whether that means putting cards that are more versatile (some sort of bounce/vindicate/whathaveyou), or something that stops the bleeding even more than swords like some sort of mass removal/control magic effect...
It may be a slightly slower approach, but it has been working out for me in my testing.
TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-07-2009, 02:12 PM
Just a quick note- DeckCheck only goes by Top 8's, so it can't measure which card is the most played. It measures which cards are the most successful in terms of putting people into the Top 8. By that measure we can suppose that Goyf, Force, StP and Brainstorm are some good cards.
And yeah, StP is retardedly good. Force of Will doesn't give you card advantage in most situations either, but tempo wins games too.
Malchar
05-07-2009, 05:00 PM
If both players are using Tarmogoyfs or otherwise comparable creatures, Swords to Plowshares works like a one for two: You trade the Swords to Plowshares with their creature, and the life they gain is enough to hold off one turn of attacks, which lets them start their next turn in the same position except they net a card in their hand from the natural draw.
Just remember that life = cards.
quicksilver
05-07-2009, 05:12 PM
If both players are using Tarmogoyfs or otherwise comparable creatures, Swords to Plowshares works like a one for two: You trade the Swords to Plowshares with their creature, and the life they gain is enough to hold off one turn of attacks, which lets them start their next turn in the same position except they net a card in their hand from the natural draw.
Just remember that life = cards.
Wow, just wow. I have never read anything more blatently wrong about magic. I mean I dont even know where to begin. I suggest you try to play the game once or twice before posting.
pi4meterftw
05-07-2009, 05:42 PM
If both players are using Tarmogoyfs or otherwise comparable creatures, Swords to Plowshares works like a one for two: You trade the Swords to Plowshares with their creature, and the life they gain is enough to hold off one turn of attacks, which lets them start their next turn in the same position except they net a card in their hand from the natural draw.
Just remember that life = cards.
Wait what? How come you don't also get a card in hand from your natural draw? That is the relevant comparison, otherwise your model for magic is kind of funky. It's not like a timewalk or something, where you take 2 turns in succession. It's almost as bad as the other player getting a timewalk, sometimes.
Otter
05-07-2009, 07:41 PM
Just remember that life = cards.
Necropotence and Bargain would beg to differ. Life is generally the game's least valuable resource, while card advantage and tempo usually vie for the most valuable resource, depending on the matchup.
-
On topic, StP excells in many situations due to its simplicity. One mana for one threat answered about as good as it gets. EE is more versatile, but it won't stop a Tombstalker or Factory from running you down. Vindicate answers most anything, but three mana can be extremely problematic. When you're in, "I need an answer, NOW!" mode, three mana is pushing the limit of viability. Not only is it a hell of a lot easier to Daze a Vindicate than a StP, but it's not infrequent to have to spend several mana screwing around with Brainstorms, Tops, or what have you in order to find your answer. Having three mana left to Vindicate when you find it is not exactly assured. This is not to mention that your duals can and will bite Wastelands, as will your Fetches bite Stifles.
You might be able to cut some StPs as a weird metagame choice, but sooner or later it will screw you over to have most of your answers at higher cmc. It can't be too hard of a weakness for them to capitalize on with Stifles, Wastes, Dazes, etc, all of which are popular cards.
TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-07-2009, 10:32 PM
If both players are using Tarmogoyfs or otherwise comparable creatures, Swords to Plowshares works like a one for two: You trade the Swords to Plowshares with their creature, and the life they gain is enough to hold off one turn of attacks, which lets them start their next turn in the same position except they net a card in their hand from the natural draw.
Just remember that life = cards.
This is just terrible.
You trade one card (StP) for one card (Tarmogoyf). Both players draw a card a turn naturally so that doesn't even enter into it. If you have a creature of your own, you can now attack and negate the life gain. If you don't, you've saved life of your own and thus given yourself more time by eliminating their threat.
Either way you gain a significant tempo boost and card parity.
Life doesn't equal cards at all. This is why people don't play Martyr of Sands more often.
Hehehe, I should run more Hero's Reunions in my deck. SO MUCH CARD ADVANTAGE!
But seriously, Swords will be played as long as the format still revolves around beating face with dudes. You spent W and a card to get rid of 1G or more and a card from your opponent. The life is almost negligible, so that's positive value, a good thing. Plus, it's instant speed, which means it has the potential to create a more beneficial board position for you (they double block your goyf, you stp one dude, creating advantage).
TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-08-2009, 12:00 AM
Or they play something like Friksian Jrednot, where you gain card advantage, or remove their yard to something like Tombstalker, where you gain a huge tempo boost most of the time nuking the dude.
Not to mention cutting off Confidant, gaining a creature back from Sower, or stopping a Servant-Grindstone combo.
No, seriously, killing creatures is good. Not gonna lie.
clavio
05-08-2009, 12:04 AM
When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was a leftover from Cavius the Great Day. What kind of drugs are you on?
thefreakaccident
05-09-2009, 02:42 PM
When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was a leftover from Cavius the Great Day. What kind of drugs are you on?
Only the high quality shit man...
Anyways.. I have been playing a few less swords in my lists now (2-3) and it has actually been working out greatly for me b/c I don't always have to deal with a creature on the board in my meta, I would rather have some other cards.
What did you remove the 2 Swords for?
rockout
05-09-2009, 07:32 PM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't gotten locked yet.
Shawon
05-09-2009, 07:57 PM
http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10438/InBeforeTheLock.gif
rockout
05-09-2009, 08:35 PM
I lol'd. Well played sir.
Jander78
05-09-2009, 09:20 PM
I think this has run its course.
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