Can Decking Be Made Competitive?

[Amber VII]

Aside from Poison Counters, "decking" or Library Depletion, is my most cherished theme in Magic. As a concept, decking is perhaps the last untapped vestige of Magic design, yet remains extremely undervalued and underplayed.

Having existed since the yoke of Alpha - with Millstone - decking has never been the focal point of any set or even received a pittance of cards. In fact, it was a sad sad sign when Millstone was for years decking's only staple, until Grindstone superseded it in Tempest. Yet, to this day, Millstone stands as one of the few cards to give birth to its own archetype (the dreaded "Millstone Deck" -- even in decks that no longer ran Millstone), while also adding to Magic's vernacular: "Milling."

With artifact-based, creature-based, multicolor, graveyard recursion, library manipulation, alternative casting cost, and a plethora of other set mechanics receiving their pumpkin pie, isn't it only natural for decking to receive its obligatory seat at the table? This is looking more probable, given Wizard's perceived outlook of running out of ideas. Take Shards of Alara for instance. Another multicolor set? The relative similarities between Exalted, Bushido, and Flanking? Or Unearth to Flashback? Do colored artifacts really excite you? At least Cascade was nice.

My question is, "Can Wizards fashion library depletion into a viable strategy?" And consequently, will such a deck ever be Legacy playable?

As a disclaimer, competitive library depletion decks do exist, and they are tournament caliber. However, these decks use decking more as an afterthought, relying on complete board lock down (Stasis) or some storm-based/finite mana combo (Brainfreeze, Stroke of Genius). Recently, library depletion decks have surfaced with a semblance of flavor (Painter's Stone, Leyline-Helm of Obedience). Alas, these decks are also combo centered, relying on the specific interactions of two cards.

What I would savor is an aggressive library depletion deck. This would be similar to burn, much more similar in fact, and would rely on emptying the opponent's library before taking lethal damage yourself. Such a decklist would contain at least 4x Glimpse the Unthinkable and 4x Mind Funeral. You could also have a tribal millstone deck, with creatures with come-into-play millstone effects or the ability to redirect damage to an opponent's library. The point is library depletion does not need to be combo based.

Sadly, besides the cards I just mentioned, no other playable decking cards come to mind, precisely because of Wizard's miscue. What are examples of library depletion cards you would like to see?

[Dark_Shakuras]

They did make a "mini" set around decking. The U/B guild in Ravnica Block.

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem with mill is not the lack of support, it's the math.

Your opponent starts with 20 life and 53 cards in his library. To win through mill, you therefore have to get rid of about 45 cards or so, let's say (taking into account your opponent drawing cards on his draw step and maybe a Brainstorm or two). This makes each card milled off your opponent's library worth about 0.44 damage. Going by that logic, a single Glimpse the Unthinkable does the equivalent of four damage for two mana, the same as your average Tarmogoyf will do in one combat step. The difference is that Tarmogoyf sticks around and does it over and over again.

It's just not efficient to try to mill someone out in Constructed, and making mill cards good enough to see play there would warp Limited.

[KillemallCFH]

The problem with mill is not the lack of support, it's the math.

Your opponent starts with 20 life and 53 cards in his library. To win through mill, you therefore have to get rid of about 45 cards or so, let's say (taking into account your opponent drawing cards on his draw step and maybe a Brainstorm or two). This makes each card milled off your opponent's library worth about 0.44 damage. Going by that logic, a single Glimpse the Unthinkable does the equivalent of four damage for two mana, the same as your average Tarmogoyf will do in one combat step. The difference is that Tarmogoyf sticks around and does it over and over again.

It's just not efficient to try to mill someone out in Constructed, and making mill cards good enough to see play there would warp Limited.Well, if you are to go with the comparison to Burn, 4 damage for 2 mana is pretty efficient. Only problem is that there are no other milling cards which come close to this efficiency. This is all ignoring the fact that Burn is a pretty underpowered deck in the first place, and the only reason it is even remotely viable is because it has so many redundant pieces, which cannot be said about milling.

[Amber VII]

Here are some of my thoughts regarding the potential pitfalls of Library Depletion, as well as ways around it.

(Please forgive my many comparisons to Burn)

1. Lack of an identifiable card pool. Glimpse the Unthinkable is the best card we have. Nothing else is close. This is akin to constructing a Burn deck with Lightning Bolt and experience a huge drop off in card quality thereafter. The onus is on Wizards to create more powerful decking cards.

2. Library Depletion does not affect the game state. Until you've decked your opponent, decking accomplishes little. A Lightning Bolt serves two purposes. It is a win condition, yes, but it also doubles as creature removal in a pinch. Glimpse does not offer dual functionality. The solution may not be to print multipurposed Millstone cards, but to simply make them more powerful. Think Price of Progress and then some. It's a trade-off. A loss of flexibility for raw power.

(I suppose an exception could be made if you manage to mill away all their win conditions)

3. You could be helping your opponent. Ichorid would like to see cards in the graveyard. Ditto for Dredge, Threshold, Flashback, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and many others. Like every facet of Magic, the graveyard has become its own resource. For decking to thrive, cards milled from the library would have to be removed from play.

4. Life is good. Not unlike the graveyard, life is a resource which can be channeled. Cards like Dark Confidant, Ad Nauseam, Thoughtsieze, and Bitterblossom all force you to pay attention to your life or lack thereof. The penultimate manifestation of this is Necropotence, a card that legacy players, thankfully, don't have to worry about.

5. Lack of a Creature Base. Since combat damage runs perpendicular to library depletion, Millstone decks have historically been creature-less or creature-lite. Historically, legacy has been creature dominated. A pithy example is Tarmogoyf, which has at once infested every decklist. Tarmogoyf is an solid wall that occasionally swings for victory. A Tarmogoyf in a millstone deck is nowhere as effective. And unfortunately, creatures which also mill are either too costly (Scalpelexis) or too mana intensive (Ambassador Laquatus).

6. The Hate is Bad. Even if decking ever became "a problem," the answers are just as irksome. For every Tormod's Crypt there exists a Feldon's Cane. I'm sure there are others, but honestly, who sideboards against Millstone?

Given these challenges, can a synergistic Library Depletion deck ever be made to compete?

[Amber VII]

Dark_Shakuras

They did make a "mini" set around decking. The U/B guild in Ravnica Block.

I overlooked that. At least Wizards tried. I suppose my criteria for a "decking block" would involve such a deck making a dent in constructed play. I don't mean Legacy. If Library Depletion top 8'ed in Standard or even Block I would be elated.

Aggro_zombies

It's just not efficient to try to mill someone out in Constructed, and making mill cards good enough to see play there would warp Limited.

I believe that is the single greatest reason as to why Wizards has never pursued Decking as a congruent strategy. If a millstone deck were to Top 8 in constructed play, it would absolutely wreck the limited format.

Possible solutions: (1) Divide the library depletion cards evenly across the block to ensure no one set is too powerful. (2) Keep the 'good' library depletion cards rare or even mythic rare to reduce the probability of players drafting into them.

[Aleksandr]

Solidarity

/thread?

[Jak]

Are you wanting a deck for Milling or are you asking why Wizards doesn't print a block around milling? If it is the former, there are decks in Legacy: Solidarity and Painters/Grindstone Combo. If it is the latter, they did a bit in Ravnica and the just printed that card that is just as good as Glimpse this last set. What more do you want?

[MattH]

It's perfectly fine to wish for a milling deck, but it sounds like you want a milling deck to be able to race an aggro deck, and I'm not sure I'd want that to be viable. When a control deck takes control, it's not really relevant whether they do 20 to you with a Morphling or to do 53 to you with a Millstone(+draw step). But what you're asking for is essentially to be able to win with the milling version of Burn.dec, the success of which can't be any more healthy in mill-form than burn-form.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

It's perfectly fine to wish for a milling deck, but it sounds like you want a milling deck to be able to race an aggro deck, and I'm not sure I'd want that to be viable. When a control deck takes control, it's not really relevant whether they do 20 to you with a Morphling or to do 53 to you with a Millstone(+draw step). But what you're asking for is essentially to be able to win with the milling version of Burn.dec, the success of which can't be any more healthy in mill-form than burn-form.

However, mill can be much more efficient than burn but some of the best mill cards are also random which tends to be bad in constructed (a sanity grinding can hit anywhere from 0 to like 30 cards). And while wizards has printed a few fairly good mill cards, its just not enough yet. 4x glimpse 4x funeral and 4x grinding still isnt enough. I mean look at burn they have like what 20 lightning bolts? If wizards just put out another 2-3 good efficient mill cards the theme might have a chance in like extended or standard (legacy is a no go since it is comparable to burn and we all know how that wins every big tourney)

[pi4meterftw]

There are plenty of strategies that are unplayable, and that's okay. Burn-Milling does not need to be playable. But you can still bring it to the kitchen table...

[chokin]

I think the problem has been stated pretty simply. You'd either need to lockdown your opponent and then mill, or have a hyper aggressive mill strategy, or combo it.

The superior wincon when you have lockdown would be creature beats since it's faster and takes less cards to pull off. Combo doesn't seem to be what OP wants. And hyper-aggressive mill cards don't exist outside of Glimpse.

Burn cards take a much bigger chunk out of the resource you want to deplete for almost no mana. Bolt is 15% of the base resource and there are a bunch of Bolt-esque cards. Glimpse is 19-20% of the resource you want (assuming 60 card decks) but there isn't anything like it or anything remotely close (exclude a Brainfreeze).

I think the closest thing that you could get to a mill strategy that wasn't Grindstone or combo would be Slivers with the Screeching Sliver. Or a Dimir deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think the closest thing that you could get to a mill strategy that wasn't Grindstone or combo would be Slivers with the Screeching Sliver. Or a Dimir deck.
Or Merfolk with that 1/3 guy for :2::u:...Drowner of Secrets, is it?

[Nessaja]

While slightly too expensive in Legacy, Nemesis of Reason is a good millcard. One mana less for it wouldve made it viable or possibly too strong.. Vigilance wouldve made it brilliant.

[ykpon]

there is a nice tier 2 deck in standard based on milling: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Turbo+Grinding&format=Lrw_10th_SoA
also monowhite turbofog decks were quite popular and pretty effective in red agro meta last year: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Turbo+Fog&format=TSp_10th_Lrw

milling isn't that bad when used in a heavy control shell. even in legacy such decks sometimes can win by milling their opponent's library though usually there are more effective win conditions. i mean Landstill with Jace, Mighty Quinn with Grindstone, Truffle Shuffle with Haunting Echoes etc.

also milling sometimes gives us nice combodecks. not only solidarity and painter, but also dragon + laquatus in vintage, leyline + helm and top + another helm in legacy, heartbeat and eggs in old extended, some kind of reveillark combo in old standard etc.

so unlike poison (which i think was really good only with Flash beeing legal), milling is still quite popular. ok, there aren't burn-like mill decks but do u really need such boring thing? burn can at least kill creatures..

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Comparing Mill to Burn isn't the ideal, Burn isn't a very good deck. Even if there were a significant number of mill based instants and sorceries, a deck composed of little else would be bad.

Following the standard of 10 cards ~ 4 damage, Raven Guild Master could be the effective Tarmogoyf for hitting players. However, you'd be spending more mana for a creature that's about as fast as Tarmogoyf, more susceptible to removal, and weaker in combat.

Sanity Grinding looks like it could have potential. Does that work with Overbeing of Myth the way I want it?

[DragoFireheart]

Milling can work if it's combo based I suppose.

Two SDTs and a Etherium Sculptor can result in a infinite card play combo to play a brain freeze. You can easily create a control shell around it with Trinket Mages to fetch combo pieces.

Hell, you could even run Counterbalance in the deck.

[Van Phanel]

Sanity Grinding looks like it could have potential. Does that work with Overbeing of Myth the way I want it?

Technically: yes

In actual tournament play: no

[Aleksandr]

Also.. why build a deck around mechanic/tactic that is weak?

I know that all that crap: "ur netdeck sukz, loosa, I build my dekz different, they are orangu.. origami... original!!" but as I am no deckbuilder geek, I just dont get it why bulid somethig like non-Painter, non-Reset milling.

btw - there was a succesful milling archetype in Kamigawa drafts, if we talk outside of constructed. :wink:

EDIT: I've played against that Sanity Grinding deck... It worked not so bad. I think that I've lost some games. Works simiklarly to Solidarity/Burn... virtual CA. (Most of my StP/disenchant cards were of no use.) But it is to slow.. and why play this, when there is a DTB/ED in the same color that wins on turn three..

[Eldariel]

So, the short of it:
-Decks that win with milling already exist (Painter's Stone, Solidarity/Spring Tide/any Brian Freeze combo, etc.)
-Decks that spend all their cards to hit opponent's deck until he's out and try to do it fast enough to race them ("Aggro Mill") pretty much can't exist until they get support equivalent to at least that of the 15 years of efficient Burn (and as pointed out before, Burn isn't a very good deck)

So decking is already "competitive" in the sense that it's played in competitive Legacy tournaments, but single-minded suicidal 20-lands&40-mill spells deck will probably never be in Legacy; and it's really never been viable in any format (mono-red burn only recently reached the critical mass of bolts to pull it off too...).

[Otter]

In addition to the problems that make non-combo decking inviable, there are already tons of insanely powerful answers to it. Milling with some sort of Brain Freeze combo usually lets you win on the spot and is generally capable of generating enough mana and draw to find answers to their problem cards. Imagine if Jotun Grunt read like this:

1W
Cumulative Upkeep -- You gain 2 life.
4/4

I mean really, just a few turns could completely ruin your day, never mind the fact that it can beat you to death.

Gaea's Blessing is a pain too, anyone can board a singleton of it and you'll have to spend huge amounts of resources to deal with it, like inefficient mill such as Extract, or stuff like Stifle that neither mills nor helps against Goyfs/Stalkers/etc. If you hit a Blessing, it's like all of your gameplay up until that point just got undone. The only need to board one to have a good chance of it buying them enough time to kill you, and if you make an actual good mill deck, people WILL board that one Blessing.

There's plenty of other random stuff that'll ruin your day too. Anyone playing Academy Ruins can run a Feldon's Cane, and you'll help them "tutor" it up. I imagine that Ichorid is an auto-loss.

[voska]

I think you need Wizards to print out a wall that has an effect like "For each point of damage Wall receives, opponent mills # of cards to the graveyard." That could spice things up a little for Mill

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think you need Wizards to print out a wall that has an effect like "For each point of damage Wall receives, opponent mills # of cards to the graveyard." That could spice things up a little for MillBelltower Sphinx (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/38.html). Go to town.

[ParkerLewis]

Belltower Sphinx (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/38.html). Go to town.

I think he meant as a replacement effect for the damage. Otherwise it's obviously crap.

Oh, and also not @ 5cc.

[ScatmanX]

Neither Solidarity or Spring Tide have huge issues agains't Gaea's Blessing or Progenitous. Those combo decks, though not Tier 1 anymore, have outs to them. (and I'm not talking about Stifle or Extract)

And I think the card that Voska ment was way different than Belltower Sphinx.

That said, an agroo mill deck wil never take place in Legacy. It is just that undoable.

[Otter]

Neither Solidarity or Spring Tide have huge issues agains't Gaea's Blessing or Progenitous.

Comparing a non-storm mill deck to a storm-based mill deck is nonsensical. When you have a ton of storm and mana, there's plenty of room to respond to the trigger with a second Freeze and them make them draw, you have tons of mana and cards to play with, finding an our is easy. When you're doing things one turn at a time, hitting a Blessing is gonna hurt. If you bump into Blessing 20 cards into their library, either you have to waste resources dealing with it, or your last couple of turns just got undone. It's not that it's an unstoppable obstacle, but having to deal with it will hurt your ability to race their threats.

When you're going off in one turn, finding an answer is a formality. When you're doing it slowly, turn by turn, finding an answer is another beat you might be taking from Goyf or Stalker. It's different.

[sdematt]

Hey guys, my first post! Long time reader, first time poster.

To answer the question of can decking be made competitive, the answer is yes.
Everything I say is based on non-storm-combo milling.

Recently, I put together a mill deck, just for kicks, to play with some friends on MWS. The problem was, it was pretty good. I've been playing more and more "T1.5 Legacy Serious!!!" games on MWS and have been doing decently well, usually winning either one game against Legacy veteran decks, or both of them and stealing a win. I don't have time to post a whole deck analysis at the moment, but it looks something like this:

Mind Funeral (Milled 26 cards off of a Thresh deck, he scooped)
Glimpse the Unthinkable
Traumatize
Haunting Echoes
Daze
Force of Will
Fog Bank
Wall of Denial
Nemesis of Reason
Damnation
No Mercy
Propaganda

etc.

The whole approach I took was that since milling itself is slow, I need to slow the game down to go as fast as I want it to go. How this usually ends up working is that I drop some walls, along with some anti-creature enchantments, and then lay down the pain with mill spells/Nemesis of Reason. The Counterspells help against threats I don't want to handle/allows me to cast a back-breaking spell (play a Traumatize one turn, Haunting echoes the next is usually game). I think this is the way to go is you need to lock the board/stop your opponent from hitting your life whilst you hit his library.

Thoughts?

[ThatGuyThere]

Mind Funeral
Glimpse the Unthinkable
Traumatize
Haunting Echoes


I think it's because Wizards actually deliberately prices "mill" effects conservatively. Milling wins are fun for the casual player doing it, but not for the person it's being done to, unless they are a little mini-game (like Sanity Grinding, or Mind Funeral).

Plus, like someone mentioned, 'serious' mill cards (that aren't based on original deck size) would screw Limited.

Side note - Traumatize. What if there was a :3::r::r: - "Target player loses half their life"? Pretty good, or crap?

My thinking is, by Turn 5, that's probably 4-5 life, if that, assuming you're playing an aggressive deck. Same thing for Traumatize - if you've Glimpsed them, then Mind Funeral'd them, Traumatize is probably hitting, what, 15-ish cards, at most? It's priced conservatively because you can hit yourself (thus empowering a bunch of strategies).

[DrJones]

Here are my thoughts about milling, and the four strategies you can attempt, in order of efficacy:

1. If you mill yourself, not only it's competitive, it's broken: Hermit, Manaless Ichorid, cephalid, etc.
2. If you mill the opponent, it's only competitive if you use some kind of combo. Which come in two kinds:
I) two/three card combo: Thoughtlash + Donate, Painter + Grindstone, barbed shocker + fire whip (well, that wasn't competitive, but I put in there just to show that red milling has also been tried)
II) Engine decks, with token creation/card draw as well as milling: stroke of genius, brainfreeze, altar of dementia...

3. Heavy control/lock decks featuring slow milling as a win condition have been succesful in the past (millstone + elemental augury, malignant growth + static orb, moat + feldon's cane), but nowadays it's too slow. It takes so much time to win game 1 that you will not have enough to finish game 2, and it's too risky to do well on tournaments with that kind of deck.

4. One-shot milling cards are scarce and not very useful unless your opponent is a moron and Trade secrets himself to death. Cards that haven't been mentioned yet but that you might want to try are Vision Charm (if you have use for its other abilities), memory sluice (which comboes with Circu, and if you can get the conspire ability becomes almost as good as glimpse), and my pet favorite Jester's Scepter, which actually might protect your butt. Anyways, this only might work in 2HG games were decking might be slighty more competitive, but still not much.

[nyoro]

Side note - Traumatize. What if there was a :3::r::r: - "Target player loses half their life"? Pretty good, or crap?


it's very bad. you can figure out that red dishes out more than dat.

the reason traumatize is bad not because it can hit yourself (misdirection or sort), it's 'cause it's not cost-effective. 5cc for hitting around 15-20 cards it's not good, not to mention the format in general has lower mana curve to get to 5 mana can be difficult; same thing to haunting echo. they are too slow in the format. people can hold back their counters, or your hand will just get destroyed if you're playing against black. you can't even cast them til turn 5, assuming if black doesn't play sinkhole.

the only good milling card at this moment is brain freeze. mind funeral is okay, but when there is wasteland in the format, it's gonna be tough to get the right colors.

[ThatGuyThere]

the reason traumatize is bad not because it can hit yourself (misdirection or sort)

Actually, I meant it costs "a little extra" because you can choose to Traumatize yourself.

Priced much cheaper, that'd be a pretty powerful option.

[Otter]

I think this is the way to go is you need to lock the board/stop your opponent from hitting your life whilst you hit his library.

Thoughts?

My question would be, if you can lock the game down to this degree, why play a bunch of milling cards that pump enemy Goyfs, cheapen Tombstalkers, help out Ichorid, tutor for aggroloam players, etc? If you have the game majorly locked down to that degree, couldn't you win in any way you want?

Wouldn't you have a better deck if you cut out all the milling cards, adding some more hate and 2 Morphlings? I mean Morphling isn't even good and that sounds easier. . .

[sdematt]

Would it be easier? Yes, but that's not the point. The whole point is to mill the opponents deck as a win condition, but I do see what you're getting at. Although this is a strategy, other strategies are just plain easier.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

4x Mesmeric Orb + 2 Blessings could be a good start.
Add in some genesis, Witness, loam and flashback stuff.
I dont know if you could desing something competitive arround Mesmeric Orb, its more a casual card...

[DrJones]

Why would you want Blessings in there? I'm pretty sure the opponent would deck himself first if all your deck is focused on that purpose.

[Ch@os]

Just play stasis, the old lists without a winoption except "Howling Mine", its Powerstasis!

[Amber VII]

Thanks for all the replies. :laugh:

I realized that comparing Agro-Mill to Burn was a nonsensical comparison. You're right, burn is not a great deck to begin with (and quite uninteresting at that). Its strong suite comes from the fact that it plays a lot of redundant cards. Milling will likely never reach that point in Magic's lifetime. I merely suggested that Wizards should print more hyper-efficient milling cards similar to Glimpse the Unthinkable.

It's been pointed out several times that competitive combo mill decks do exist -- Painter's Stone and Solidarity. My premise is for library depletion decks to branch into other archetypes. This is more of a design theory. I believe library depletion represents one of the core pillars of Magic, without altering the game (ie Planeswalkers/Tribal Spells).

There were some interesting cards mentioned here that frankly, I didn't even know about. It may be possible now to create some type of casual extended deck which doesn't rely on old hat. I'll add to that later.

[Amber VII]

I always wondered why Wizards is so hesitant to print more/better mill cards. When you look at it, most decent mill cards tend to fetch high prices relative to their actual tournament play. Cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable, Traumatize, Grindstone (even before Painters Servant!), and Sanity Grinding -- cards that belong in the junk rare section somewhere -- all command a respectable price. I can only see this coming demand from the casual gaming crowd, which Wizards is suppose to be catering to.

Rather than wait for Wizards to print more efficient milling cards, I think a casual quasi-competitive aggro-mill deck can be made from cards we have available now. Here are some cards that caught my eye looking at this thread:

Sanity Grinding - Needs a deck built around it to maximize its use. Assuming a mana base of 24 lands (40%), that's 4 lands and 6 (blue) spells. Assuming two blue mana symbols per card that translates into 12 cards – which at best makes it a poor man’s Glimpse.

Memory Erosion – I wish the card cost 1U instead of 1UU and milled 4 cards per activation instead of 2. Still, it's a step in the right direction.

Screeching Sliver – This is more in line with what Tribal Mill could look like. I don't think Slivers fits into milling, but a Wizards deck could capture that essence. I always imagined dealing damage as physically assailing your opponent. However, a true Wizard seeks to dismantle his/her opponent from the inside out.

Drowner of Secrets – I really like this card. Are there enough Merfolks to make it work? The effect also seems underwhelming. If you're going to mill, I wish Wizards would implement a two card minimum.

Nemesis of Reason – Due to the mana cost, inevitable comparisons will be drawn to Traumatize. Traumatize usually mills about ~20 cards. It's a call on whether Nemesis of Reason will survive two combat steps.

Mesmeric Orb – My new favorite card. This could really serve to power new and existing milling strategies. The effect itself is subtle, but the card is priced well enough to have substantial impact over the course of the game. I would enjoy designing a deck around this card.

[DrJones]

Bazaar of Wonders (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/55.html) ;)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Bazaar + Glimpse/Orb = poor mans countertop! :laugh:

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I always wondered why Wizards is so hesitant to print more/better mill cards.Limited. A turn three Glimpse in constructed knocks their library to 40, two thirds of what it was. A turn three Glimpse in limited knocks their library to 20, only half of what it was. Limited is a weaker, slower format than constructed and mill more effective on a small library. When can't guarantee consistent, significant pressure they have more time to mill you. With things like Glimpse the Unthinkable running around, they don't need constant milling, they can just hit you once or twice and let you bleed out.

[Alfred]

Limited. A turn three Glimpse in constructed knocks their library to 40, two thirds of what it was. A turn three Glimpse in limited knocks their library to 20, only half of what it was. Limited is a weaker, slower format than constructed and mill more effective on a small library. When can't guarantee consistent, significant pressure they have more time to mill you. With things like Glimpse the Unthinkable running around, they don't need constant milling, they can just hit you once or twice and let you bleed out.

Printing one or two great rare mill cards isn't going to unbalance limited.

[Maveric78f]

I'm not sure of what you say Sanguine Voyeur. I've never seen a limited format where the dominant strategy for winning a game was milling the opponent.

There could be a keyword for creatures: "erosion" by reference to "Millstone". this. Erosion would say :
"every time this creature deals damage to a creature, this creature controller puts that many cards from his library to his graveyard.
every time this creature deals damage to a player, he puts that many cards from his library to his graveyard."

It would be interesting imho.

Edit: The main problem of milling as it exists nowadays is that it's connected to a color. Poisoning is connected to green and black. There could be also an alternative way of winning with R/W and there would be the materials for a thematic set on alternative wins.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Printing one or two great rare mill cards isn't going to unbalance limited.And it doesn't. The one or two 'great mill cards' are rare, infrequent in limited. They're scarce enough to not hugely affect limited as a whole.
I'm not sure of what you say Sanguine Voyeur. I've never seen a limited format where the dominant strategy for winning a game was milling the opponent.They aren't common enough often for it to be a 'dominant strategy,' but it is a very viable option when you get the tools.

[Maveric78f]

I've seen it a bit in Ravnica, mainly thanks to Belltower Sphinx, which was a great wall for a limited deck. It could attack too, but it was less common. Glimpse was barely an argument in itself for the mill strategy.

[ThatGuyThere]

Limited. A turn three Glimpse in constructed knocks their library to 40, two thirds of what it was. A turn three Glimpse in limited knocks their library to 20, only half of what it was.

Solution - Relative mill. "Mill half the library", a la Traumatize.

Only, like, cheaper.

Or "Mill three cards for every 10 in the opponent's library", or something. Enough to matter in Constructed, but not really affect Limited.

...


Total side note - these would all be quite effective against Battle of Wits. :cool:

[DrJones]

Bazaar + Glimpse/Orb = poor mans countertop! :laugh:
It's actually quite strong if you stifle its comes-into-play ability, but now I remembered that it's symmetrical. Mmmm :confused:

[Team-Hero]

I used to have a mill deck but it didn't run exactly like a mill deck. I used stuff like Haunting Echoes (already mentioned in this thread), Cranial Extraction, and Extirpate. If you want milling to work, from my experience, you want to disect their deck as much as you can before you come in for the kill. Use a single Glimpse then Extirpate a win condition or Haunting Echoes ONLY the cards that are win conditions. Leave their Brainstorms, Fetchlands, Nonbasic Lands, Ponders, Force of Will (if you have discard), etc. I know it sounds strange, "leave cards in their deck when your running a mill strategy", but the main strategy is to make their deck completely unplayable. If, and only if they don't give up the match (I've had a lot of people scoop to a well placed Haunting Echo), then you can move in for the kill. That's where you pull all the stops and use Jace's limit break, Glimpse then Twincast, Circu - Dimir Lobotomist, Raven Guild Master, Forced Fruitation, etc.

My mill deck played 4x Hymn to Tourach, 6x Thoughtseize/Duress, 4x Damnation, 6x Diabolic Edict/Chainer's Edict, 4x Wasteland, and 2x No Mercy. My tactic was to:
1. Get the opponent on top-deck mode as soon as possible.
2. Capture control via Damnation, Diabolic Edicts, and No Mercy.
3. Land a Haunting Echoes or Forced Fruitation (after you Extirpate their enchantment removal).

I've also used Cabal Coffers and Psychic Drain to stay alive.

Hope this helped.

[Aleksandr]

I'm not sure of what you say Sanguine Voyeur. I've never seen a limited format where the dominant strategy for winning a game was milling the opponent.


Kamigawa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ok, maybe not "dominant", but rather "not uncommon"

[Darkenslight]

Here's a basic decklist that may or may not be viable:

Defence:
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 Cryptic Command
4 Plumeveil

Mill
4 Dreamborn Muse
3 Vision Charm
4 Memory Sluice
3 Memory Erosion
4 Sanity Grinding

Land:
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 USea
12 Island

Sideboard:
4 Trickbind
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Infest
1 Swamp

That looks somewhat viable to me; the cards essentially split into two categories in the main; defence and mill. The sole exception to this is MYstical, which gets most of the other nonland cards.

[jthanatos]

Lots of islands, but no shackles for defense cards? I know that plumeveil makes sanity grinding pretty painful, but shackles can just win games.

[Tacosnape]

Just for the record, decking has always been competitive. Top 8's of decent-sized tournaments have been made by everything from Solidarity to Painter Stone to Solitary Confinement locks to the occasional random Mesmeric Orb deck.

If the question is "Can decking be made competitive with bad cards," then the answer is probably either "No." or "Not yet."

[Otter]

Just for the record, decking has always been competitive. Top 8's of decent-sized tournaments have been made by everything from Solidarity to Painter Stone to Solitary Confinement locks to the occasional random Mesmeric Orb deck.

If the question is "Can decking be made competitive with bad cards," then the answer is probably either "No." or "Not yet."

I would say that the question is, "Can decking a viable strategy rather than a means to an end?" Solidarity really has no vested interest in dumping an opponent's library into their graveyard. Brainfreeze is simply the easiest way to win after generating a ton of blue mana. If WotC printed "UUU; Storm; Target player loses 2 life," people would probably play that instead of Brainfreeze as their kill. It wouldn't change the mechanism of the deck in the slightest, but it would no longer be a "decking" deck.

Or you could compare it to calling HulkFlash a Mogg Fanatic deck. Fanatic was just the means to the end, it really had very little to do with the core of the deck (as seen by the original kills of Disciples and 0 toughness artifacts or the Sliver kill). Defining a powerful engine by the specific cards it uses to kill seems kind of silly.

When one talks about "decking," I think the idea is that it is referring to the strategy that is first and foremost about putting an opponent's library into the graveyard, not the idea that Stroke of Genius is an effective way to kill someone when you have 80 mana floating in monoblue.

[Malchar]

But decking isn't really a "deck," it's just a way to win the game. That's like asking whether or not "doing damage" or "life loss" can be made competitive.

[Mayk0l]

Kamigawa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ok, maybe not "dominant", but rather "not uncommon"


Yeah, and that's saying a lot. Kamigawa T2, that must've been a blast.

[Aleksandr]

Or "revealing".

Is revealing a viable strategy? I'd like to build a deck around revealing.

a) I can play Goblin Game + all that terrible clash-cards
b) or maybe I can try Rituals into Belcher

Which deck would be more "revealing" one?
Which one would be better?

[Otter]

Yeah, and that's saying a lot. Kamigawa T2, that must've been a blast.

He's referring to limited -- in triple CHK draft you could build a U/W or U/R Dampen Thoughts deck if you picked one up early enough in the packs. It wasn't the top strategy, but it worked.



But decking isn't really a "deck," it's just a way to win the game. That's like asking whether or not "doing damage" or "life loss" can be made competitive.

My main point was that the topic was about using decking someone as the central focus of a deck, not, "The simplest way to end the game once you have large amounts of mana or storm, or your two-card Painter combo." Pointing out that Solidarity or Academy decks have won by decking people is not only obvious, but irrelevant to the actual topic.

Anyways, you are correct that decking isn't a "deck." But the strategy is so fundamentally different from most others that it warrants different discussion. If I'm deciding to use mill cards instead of a 'Goyf to kill you once I have relatively good control over the game, there had better be a good reason why. At the moment, I really don't see one and would conclude that there is no good reason to go with decking other than having extremely large amounts of mana or a solid storm count. And we don't actively ask whether or not "damage" and "lifeloss" are competitive, because they put up results. It's extremely obvious that chewing off 20 life is easier for most every archetype than chewing off 40-50 cards. To be serious, you ask whether or not "damage" is competitive every time you build a decklist that wins via creatures. Of course the answer is pretty much always yes, but that's the point. That's why it's worth discussing if the alternative is competitive, because it clearly fails to put up results in non-combo situations.

[Malchar]

There is an argument to be made that playing defense is easier than offense. For example, in 2D fighters, a defensive/reactive strategy is usually the best. I'm not too sure if it all translates to Magic, but if it does then decking could be a theoretical advantage. I would envision something like a heavy control stax deck that locks everything down and then proceeds to mill the opponent slowly. Specific decking cards aren't really needed. This strategy would just capitalize on the advantage of defense. Basically, you lock up the game and proceed to win by default, forcing the opponent to resolve something or get out of your trap so to speak. This is in contrast to the "burn" strategy, which would be the obvious alternative. At the end of the day, I just don't think that there are good-enough cards to pull this off outside of Standard or Limited.

[Silent Requiem]

I would say that the question is, "Can decking a viable strategy rather than a means to an end?" Solidarity really has no vested interest in dumping an opponent's library into their graveyard. Brainfreeze is simply the easiest way to win after generating a ton of blue mana. If WotC printed "UUU; Storm; Target player loses 2 life," people would probably play that instead of Brainfreeze as their kill. It wouldn't change the mechanism of the deck in the slightest, but it would no longer be a "decking" deck.

...

My main point was that the topic was about using decking someone as the central focus of a deck, not, "The simplest way to end the game once you have large amounts of mana or storm, or your two-card Painter combo." Pointing out that Solidarity or Academy decks have won by decking people is not only obvious, but irrelevant to the actual topic.



What you say is true, but not necessarily relevant. Depending on the player, Solidarity may be viewed as a "decking" deck, or as a "storm deck that happens to deck the opponent". None of this changes the fact that Solidarity does in fact win by decking an opponent, or that winning via decking is viable.

What you will notice is that the sucessful decking decks tend to deck all at once (Solidarity, Painter, etc), and this is because there are many decks out there that WANT to put cards in their graveyard. A howling mine deck, for example, is asking to be put down by a reanimator/flashback/etc deck.

Given that the decking has to happen all at once, these decks will almost always revolve around some kind of combo, be it storm or an actual combo.

-Silent Requiem

[rufus]

Specific decking cards aren't really needed. This strategy would just capitalize on the advantage of defense. Basically, you lock up the game and proceed to win by default, forcing the opponent to resolve something or get out of your trap so to speak. This is in contrast to the "burn" strategy, which would be the obvious alternative. At the end of the day, I just don't think that there are good-enough cards to pull this off outside of Standard or Limited.

Solitary Confinement in Enchantress.

[Otter]

What you will notice is that the sucessful decking decks tend to deck all at once (Solidarity, Painter, etc), and this is because there are many decks out there that WANT to put cards in their graveyard. A howling mine deck, for example, is asking to be put down by a reanimator/flashback/etc deck.

Given that the decking has to happen all at once, these decks will almost always revolve around some kind of combo, be it storm or an actual combo.

-Silent Requiem

Don't get me wrong -- I completely agree that it's a terrible strategy unless it happens all at once or in a few other rare situations. It's just that the original post of the thread clearly stated that the entire point of the topic was to discuss other applications of decking besides storm and painter. So while my side of the argument is that there aren't any viable competitive reasons to deck someone other than storm, painter, and the occasional boring matchup with Chantress or landstill mirror, I think people could contribute somethinga bit more relevant than mentioning that Solidarity wins by decking, which as has been acknowledged since post one. *shrug* I'll drop the point though, not worth going into further.

[MULocke]

I have just one word for this thread:


Solidarity.


Milling actually used to be the best combination strategy in this format, and it was a tier 1 deck at one point (in the days before goyf). It's still an okay deck, just the combination of goyf and counterbalance has made the deck less good. The problem is that if you try to control the game and win via decking attrition (UB control, etc), you're much better off just playing a Morphling and riding it to victory, as that requires only one card to win the game. Brain freeze is the same was (it requires only the brain freeze to deck someone), just you have to build combo instead of control.

[Anusien]

JP Meyer's Theorem of Viability Inquiry: "If you ask to ask if a deck is viable, the answer is no."
Anusien's Corollary of Question Threads: "Any thread that asks a question can be answered with 'No', unless that thread is specifically created to defy this rule."

[DrJones]

Why am I under the impression that the best 'one-shot' milling deck in the format will be 250 cards, and include cards like Thought Lash and Crumbling Sanctuary?

[jimirynk]

Painter servant/grindstone?
Thread beaten?:eek:

[ParkerLewis]

I have just one word for this thread:


Solidarity.


Painter servant/grindstone?
Thread beaten?:eek:


I have just one word for you : RTFOP. Reading is tech.

[Nihil Credo]

[x] Serious answers have been given to the OP's satisfaction
[ ] Thread talk centred on Legacy
[ ] More serious posts than sarcastic or pointless ones
[x] Large number of one-liners
[ ] Funny
[ ] Relevant
[ ] Posters are reading the thread before replying
[x] Would not look out of place in [insert {shitty|any other English-language} Legacy forum here]
[x] LOCKED