[Deck] WBR Borzhov Aggro

[badjuju]

Hey Source,

Pardon if this archetype has been done before, but browsing both deckcheck and these forums would say otherwise.

The Boros Orzhov Concept

The idea of the deck is simple enough. I was browsing through Zoo, Deadguy, and Fish variants when I wondered: hey, why isn't there a deck that features WBR? You get all of the fast, efficient creatures that white offers, followed by Bob and hand disruption from black, and the burn and reach from red spells. Top all of that off with Vindicate, a one card all-around answer for all of your problems as well as amazing sideboard options from both black and white.

The deck borrows a lot of the truisms of the RGW Zoo decks. You want to pack a quick punch full of threat density, followed by burn for the reach. What Borzhov sacrifices in aggro power (less efficient creatures, eg Tarmogoyf, Wild Nactl, etc.), it makes up for with powerful utility from the black cards (eg Dark Confidant and Vindicate). Also, the inclusion of black is a great help versus combo decks, an archetype that Zoo struggles with and Deadguy can't always race.


The Borzhov Crew

There are a ton of factors to consider when building the creature-base, and a lot of that has to do with metagaming. However, there are a few choices that I would have to mark as auto-include:

Dark Confidant
Honestly, probably one of the biggest motivators for the inclusion of black. I don't think I really have to say much about this guy - anyone who has had the pleasure of playing our dear friend Bob can attest to his ridiculousness. He is the glue that holds the deck together and the oil that keeps the parts working.

Serra Avenger
This gal is seriously one helluva creature. Not only is she extremely efficient, she carries the evasion that the deck needs to end games without hassles on the ground. Having vigilance is really just icing on the cake, enabling her to block smaller creatures from sneaking their way in.

Tidehollow Sculler
There have been widely mixed opinions about this guy, but I think he's absolutely awesome. The early disruption is great for crippling your opponent while putting him under pressure. This makes him a double-threat, effectively putting your opponent in difficult situations where he has to choose between creatures to kill and waste valuable tempo.

Grim Lavamancer
Unfortunately, one cannot exist with the other. Our big friend, Jotun Grunt, aches to play with the rest of the team, but I feel that Grim Lavamancer is a more well-rounded option. Not only does he serve as a consistent source of removal and damage, he also acts as a reach tool, allowing you to just dome damage when there are obstacles for your other creatures. I'm afraid the Grunt won't have enough food (also metagame dependent), but testing will show.

Mother of Runes
Is a godsend. Provides the defense and evasion the deck sorely needs. Because the deck is filled with "double value" creatures, like Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler, Grim Lavamancer, and Figure of Destiny, her ability to absorb removal (or block Goyf) is invaluable.

Figure of Destiny
After much thought, I've decided that this guy is superior to Isamaru or Goblin Legionnaire. Although he's a mana investment, he packs a great punch for his cost and can help solidify the deck's mid-game plan. The inclusion of Mother of Runes supports this choice.


The Borzhov Bench Warmers

Looking at these colors, there are so many more options to consider. Each creature has a unique and specific role, but I feel that the ones above are much more powerful than the ones listed below (for the maindeck, at least). The strongest candidates that you can argue for the maindeck are:

Mogg Fanatic (vs Dredge)
Figure of Destiny (over Isamaru)
Silver Knight (in an aggro-heavy metagame)
Spectral Lynx (in a beats-heavy metagame)
Jotun Grunt (in a GY heavy metagame)

Other possible considerations:

@1CC
Savannah Lions
Mother of Runes

@2CC
Withered Wretch
True Believer
Epochrasite
Soltari Priest
Ethersworn Canonist

@3CC
Hypnotic Specter
Kitchen Finks


The Borzhov Spellbook

This is the section that really separates Borzhov from Deadguy, Zoo, and Tarmoburn. The deck essentially takes all the best spells from the three decks, granting an insane package of removal, hand disruption, and burn.

Vindicate
Indiscriminate removal. Perhaps THE best removal spell in the game, since it solves any and all of your problems.

Sword to Plowshares
Cheapest removal spell in the slot. Although it does "go against the aggro game plan", Swords serves as an invaluable utility spell that removes blockers, troublesome creatures, and, in a pinch, a life-gain spell for yourself.

Thoughtseize
Powerful hand disruption that is valuable in every matchup, especially combo.

Lightning Bolt
Most efficient burn spell. Cheap removal that doubles as dome damage, auto 4-of.

Lightning Helix
Another powerful burn spell, with the same function as Lightning Bolt, that helps to balance the life-loss caused by fetchlands, Bob, and Thoughtseize.


The Borzhov Dusty Shelf and Sideboard

I wanted to make room for these cards, but I just really wasn't sure if they belonged. You can make arguments for all of them, but chances are they'll depend on the metagame or end up in the sideboard.

AEther Vial
Umezawa's Jitte
Duress
Orim's Chant
Disenchant / Seal of Cleansing
Relic of Progenitus
Pyroclasm
Deathmark
Thorn of Amythest
Pithing Needle
Pyrostatic Pillar

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So this is what I have for a preliminary list, no testing yet:

Borzhov Aggro
by Yesmilord
09.05.11 - Version 1.2

// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Scrubland
1 [IN] Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [A] Badlands
1 [ARE] Plains
4 [A] Plateau

// Creatures (22)
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [LRW] Figure of Destiny

// Spells (18)
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
2 [CNF] Path to Exile

// Sideboard (still a mess. I'll worry about it after I get the MB down)
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [4E] Disenchant
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus


Comments, critiques, suggestions, bashes - everything is welcome!

[Joe_C]

there is definitely a reason to run chrome mox in here.....turn 2 vindicates, turn 1 dark confidants, opens up way too many good plays to be ignored.... Interesting list. Although green still has alot to offer "zoo" style decks i.e rancor, wild nacatl...

[badjuju]

there is definitely a reason to run chrome mox in here.....turn 2 vindicates, turn 1 dark confidants, opens up way too many good plays to be ignored.... Interesting list. Although green still has alot to offer "zoo" style decks i.e rancor, wild nacatl...

Is there?

The card disadvantage from Chrome Mox is too much a setback, and the deck gains very little benefit from speeding up a turn. It's the same reason why you don't see Tarmoburn or Zoo running Chrome Mox - the curve is already insanely low.

You might be right, and Zoo might still be a "superior" aggro deck, but this deck should do much better against combo solely based on the fact that it has cards like Tidehollow Sculler and Thoughtseize, and game 1 at that too. Compared to Tarmoburn, we lose out on more lethal burn like Price of Progress and Fireblast, but the deck has creatures that stick around longer with the evasion and utility that Tarmoburn does not have. Compared to Pikula, Borzhov focuses much less on resource denial and just dealing the beats. Put your opponent on double pressure by pumping out a faster clock while removing all threats in the way with cheap spells. Compared to RGb decklists (Tarmoburn splash Thoughtseize), this is probably the best argument one could make against this Borzhov. Green just has bigger, better creatures. Unfortunately, RGb lists cannot run Wild Nactl, Wooly Thoctar, nor Qasali Pridemage, but still has access to Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. My argument here is that running white allows you to play Jotun Grunt, which counteracts many GY strategies, and Vindicate, which is an all around answer spell that can deal with all sorts of shenanigans that fly your way.

Just some thoughts.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Awesome deck. I've been trying to figure out different ways to give Bob a slot in a zoo/burn-ish deck, and this just seems sick nasty.

A couple things I'd like to throw out there:
Goblin Legionnaire seems weak. It's not 'bad', it just seems like this deck has slightly too many 2-drops compared to good turn 1 plays, and the legionnaire is easily the one dude I would change for a good turn 1 play. Aether Vial seems awesome for this deck; it fills the 1-drop slot and helps pump out the creatures that you draw from confidant.

I like chrome mox as a 2-of, and I think it deserves to be tested. Just like Joe_C said, turn 1 confidant would dominate.

StP might be needed to get past ultra-aggressive goyfs and tombstalkers.

The changes I would make if I tried this deck:
+3 aether vial
+2 chrome mox
+2 StP
-4 goblin legionnaire
-1 isamaru
-1 serra avenger
-1 lightning helix

I could be completely off since I haven't tested the deck. Again, the decks looks quite cool :cool:

[badjuju]

Awesome deck. I've been trying to figure out different ways to give Bob a slot in a zoo/burn-ish deck, and this just seems sick nasty.

A couple things I'd like to throw out there:
Goblin Legionnaire seems weak. It's not 'bad', it just seems like this deck has slightly too many 2-drops compared to good turn 1 plays, and the legionnaire is easily the one dude I would change for a good turn 1 play. Aether Vial seems awesome for this deck; it fills the 1-drop slot and helps pump out the creatures that you draw from confidant.

I like chrome mox as a 2-of, and I think it deserves to be tested. Just like Joe_C said, turn 1 confidant would dominate.

StP might be needed to get past ultra-aggressive goyfs and tombstalkers.

The changes I would make if I tried this deck:
+3 aether vial
+2 chrome mox
+2 StP
-4 goblin legionnaire
-1 isamaru
-1 serra avenger
-1 lightning helix

I could be completely off since I haven't tested the deck. Again, the decks looks quite cool :cool:

Hm I'll give the inclusion of Vial a second idea, but still very against the Chrome Mox idea. Also, you just cut 7 creatures. I don't think the creatures are powerful enough by themselves to just cut them (they're no Tombstalker/Goyf combo), so the deck should stay a pretty aggressive weenie strategy, using about 20 two-power plus creatures.

@Legionnaire
Yea I had the same feeling when I was trying to shove him in the deck. I just felt like the deck was too creature light (at 19 creatures), so I took out the StPs and shoved him in. In retrospect, the StPs serve too important of a role to just remove. I think what I'll end up doing is putting in Figure of Destiny instead of Legionnaire and finding room for StPs.

@Creature Configuration
A friend and I were talking about possibly configuring the deck to be able to run Magus of the Moon. Considering the primary power of red, Magus could become a very valuable asset to the army. AEther Vial would obviously be a key player, but I'm still iffy on how this would shake up the mana base. What I DON'T want to do, however, is turn this into another Dragon Stompy, where I start shoving in Chrome Moxen and whatnot to get that speed. Since most of my creatures come in before the Magus in the curve, it shouldn't be a problem...and Vial could handle the rest.

[Sims]

The main reason to run Chrome Mox in Black-based zoo variants is Dark Confidant. Turn 1 Confidant will very quickly recoup the lost card and set you ahead in no time at all if it isn't answered. It very much depends on what play style you want to take with the deck, but I ran "Dark" 3/2 and home-brew BGW zoo decks and Chrome Mox rarely was a hinderance. The turn 1 possibilities of Confidant, Sculler/Fiend, Duress/Seize while holding StP, or even using a turn 1 Chrome to bait out a Force can be large reasons for it's inclusion.

It is a fine line to walk, but I wouldn't say that the disadvantage clearly outweighs the advantages. It has it's strengths and weaknesses, and can be a powerful tool in the right build.

[whosyourdaddy]

Did, you consider Sarcomancy? It's a nice 1cc drop and could take Isamaru's slot(it doesn't suck in multiples). You've got 4 Scullers to ensure you won't take to much dmg. I would go with something like 3/1 or 2/1 Sarcomancy/Isamaru split.

[badjuju]

The main reason to run Chrome Mox in Black-based zoo variants is Dark Confidant. Turn 1 Confidant will very quickly recoup the lost card and set you ahead in no time at all if it isn't answered. It very much depends on what play style you want to take with the deck, but I ran "Dark" 3/2 and home-brew BGW zoo decks and Chrome Mox rarely was a hinderance. The turn 1 possibilities of Confidant, Sculler/Fiend, Duress/Seize while holding StP, or even using a turn 1 Chrome to bait out a Force can be large reasons for it's inclusion.

It is a fine line to walk, but I wouldn't say that the disadvantage clearly outweighs the advantages. It has it's strengths and weaknesses, and can be a powerful tool in the right build.

Hey Sims,

Good insight. I guess I'll give Chrome Mox another chance, but I do feel the strategy needs to change a bit. I feel like Chome Mox would be more valuable if we were powering into deadlier plays, but the deck as it is right now takes a bit of a slower, consistent route (especially with Serra Avenger) rather than going balls to the wall. If I were to go Chrome Mox, I'd probably find room for Magus of the Moon. Not sure about Mesmeric Fiend - could take the deck in a completely different direction though.

[ACMaverick]

What about Hellspark Elemental? He's been pretty good from what I've seen. Also tempting would be Anthemancer, but I'd only want him in a loam/landstill/43 land heavy meta.

[badjuju]

What about Hellspark Elemental? He's been pretty good from what I've seen. Also tempting would be Anthemancer, but I'd only want him in a loam/landstill/43 land heavy meta.

Anathemancer sounds cool, but you're right - it only works in certain metagames. Once again, I think this archetype is super-flexible due to the wide range of utility creatures available to Borzhov.

Here are three new decklists that I've come up with.

-I'm choosing to try Mother of Runes. She seems like a perfect fit for protecting the overvalued creatures and providing a pathway for beats.
-After some discussion with a friend, we think that Figure of Destiny probably > Isamaru and Goblin Legionnaire. Mother of Runes reinforces this decision.
-I chose to stick in some Swords to Plowshares for MD answers to overly large goyfs game 1.
-Are Thoughtseize and Duress interchangeable in this deck? There's already a lot of pain from 8 fetchlands and Bob, but is it worth it to be able to snatch a Goyf both on the play and on the draw? Testing will tell.

Borzhov Aggro (Vanilla Update)

// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [MI] Mountain
1 [IN] Swamp
4 [A] Plateau
4 [U] Scrubland
2 [A] Badlands

// Creatures (22)
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [UL] Mother of Runes

// Spells (18)
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [US] Duress
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix


Borzhov Aggro (Vial Variant) <----I'm digging this list.

// Lands (19)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [A] Badlands
4 [A] Plateau
4 [U] Scrubland
1 [IN] Swamp
1 [ARE] Plains
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures (21)
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells (20)
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [US] Duress
2 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [A] Lightning Bolt


Borzhov Aggro (feat. Chrome Mox)

// Lands (17)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Badlands
2 [IN] Swamp
2 [A] Plateau
2 [ARE] Plains
2 [U] Scrubland

// Creatures (20)
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny

// Spells (25)
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte



Lists are untested, just throwing up some variants. I do feel like the Chrome Mox version is a tad spell heavy (especially with the redundancy of Swords and Vindicate, both of which don't actually deal damage). Probably going to take one out to add in more creatures (20 is a bit shy of what I'd like to have).

Thoughts?

[ACMaverick]

I really like the third list, it seems like it has the potential to be really explosive. I also only like Serra Avenger with Vial, as I don't like waiting to drop her on turn 4 if she's the only creature in your hand. Maybe I could see her as a 2 of or something in the lists without vial.

Speaking of providing a path to beat with Mother of Runes, what about Keldon Marauders at the two drop spot? I also miss wasteland and price of progress, both which I've seen just win games.

Another proven power card in black is hymn to tourach, but that costs BB and is probably a pain in this deck with figure.

[ssilver]

Jotun Grunt, good against everything, and you have enough stuff to keep it alive (cept for the antisynergy with Lavamancer), plus its big enough for goyf during the early game.

Edit:

"I'm still not entirely sold on Figure of Destiny either. He becomes kinda mana intensive and causes conflict in the early plays."

He is mana intensive, but he is insane in the middle game, forces control to deal with him, and laughs at Merfolk. Also the ability to bluff with him should not be overlooked (attacking with enough mana to pump, and getting in for just 2 damage). He will usually be a 2/2, and go to 4/4 when you've emptied your hand. His flexibility is amazing.

[badjuju]

I really like the third list, it seems like it has the potential to be really explosive. I also only like Serra Avenger with Vial, as I don't like waiting to drop her on turn 4 if she's the only creature in your hand. Maybe I could see her as a 2 of or something in the lists without vial.

Speaking of providing a path to beat with Mother of Runes, what about Keldon Marauders at the two drop spot? I also miss wasteland and price of progress, both which I've seen just win games.

Another proven power card in black is hymn to tourach, but that costs BB and is probably a pain in this deck with figure.

At this point, the list is starting to get really tight. I like Keldon Marauders, but I don't know if he's the best fit in the slot. I'd definitely consider him for the third decklist though, where speed is more important. Price of Progress might hurt us just as much as it hurts them, so I'd rather not. Wasteland is near impossible to run. We need all the colored resources we can get to run our deck smoothly. Hymn to Tourach belongs and will stay in Eva Green and Deadguy. This deck's spellbook focuses on quick and efficient ways to deal with obstacles so that the beats can get through, be it Swordsing an opposing creature, ripping it right out their hand with Thoughtseize / Sculler, burning a block away with a Lightning Bolt, or Vindicating problematic enchantments.


Jotun Grunt, good against everything, and you have enough stuff to keep it alive (cept for the antisynergy with Lavamancer), plus its big enough for goyf during the early game.

If testing shows that I have enough food for it, I think Jotun Grunt can replace Lavamancer (maybe).

I'm still not entirely sold on Figure of Destiny either. He becomes kinda mana intensive and causes conflict in the early plays.

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(to avoid double posting)




"I'm still not entirely sold on Figure of Destiny either. He becomes kinda mana intensive and causes conflict in the early plays."

He is mana intensive, but he is insane in the middle game, forces control to deal with him, and laughs at Merfolk. Also the ability to bluff with him should not be overlooked (attacking with enough mana to pump, and getting in for just 2 damage). He will usually be a 2/2, and go to 4/4 when you've emptied your hand. His flexibility is amazing.

You're probably right. He's the kind of gas the deck needs to pull through the mid-game win.

[Patrunkenphat7]

The more I look at these lists, the more I feel that decks like The Rock and Eva Green are strictly better. What makes this deck more powerful than them? I would really like to see this deck work.

[badjuju]

The more I look at these lists, the more I feel that decks like The Rock and Eva Green are strictly better. What makes this deck more powerful than them? I would really like to see this deck work.

To be honest, I don't have a clear answer for you.

I've already had multiple discussions with various players about this list versus Eva Green / Rock and the only thing I can say is that it's just a different style of play. The BGx lists generally have more hand disruption (Hymn to Tourach), resource denial (Sinkhole / Wasteland) and fatter creatures (Tarmogoyf / Tombstalker), but all I can really say is that Borzhov is a turn faster in the curve, has a lower average CC (1.6), has burn that doubles as both removal and reach, and is able to support great utility creatures such as Jotun Grunt.

So to sum it up:
I just think of my deck as two words "cheap" and "efficient" with a tad of flexibility. You can control the board with your slew of removal, or bum rush against certain archetypes should need be. The curve of Borzhov is a turn faster than Eva Green, and the spells cheaper overall, but Eva Green hits harder, both spell and creature-wise. Eva Green just doesn't give a crap and bulldozes through its matchups. Rock has more utility, but is much slower than both.

EDIT:
Food for thought - Terminate > StP in here?

[ssilver]

One mana vs. 2 specially BR is improtant, seeing as you could be dropping a lightning bolt, a Figure, or other goodies with that mana.

I have a hunch that Path could be what this deck is looking for, as it doesn't really care about how much mana you have, but it does care about how much life your opponent has.

[badjuju]

One mana vs. 2 specially BR is improtant, seeing as you could be dropping a lightning bolt, a Figure, or other goodies with that mana.

I have a hunch that Path could be what this deck is looking for, as it doesn't really care about how much mana you have, but it does care about how much life your opponent has.

Yea, I'm just trying to think of all the ramifications of granting your opponent an extra mana-source. Maybe as a 2-of, Path won't be such a bad thing, since it's mainly there to get rid of impossible-to-deal-with fatties. So many things to test! I'll get around to it this weekend for sure.

[nix]

EDIT:
Food for thought - Terminate > StP in here?

i would go with snuff outover STP , because:
1. Its free, and tempo is very important in this deck.
2. You lose life 4 instead of your opponent gaining 1-5 life

you losing life is much better because they dont get extra time.

snuff out basically makes a creature hit yuo once, but it doesnt get to use any special abilities, and it also cant block.

[Esper3k]

i would go with snuff outover STP , because:
1. Its free, and tempo is very important in this deck.
2. You lose life 4 instead of your opponent gaining 1-5 life

you losing life is much better because they dont get extra time.

snuff out basically makes a creature hit yuo once, but it doesnt get to use any special abilities, and it also cant block.

While I'm a big fan of Snuff Out (I love playing Eva Green), I'm not sure it's necessarily good for this deck.

Snuff Out doesn't deal with 1 of the two creatures that this deck seems to have issues with (Tarmogoyf & Tombstalker). Also, it's really painful when you flip it from Dark Confidant.

Those two reasons would be why I'd say no to Snuff Out.

I do think the Path to Exile over Swords is very interesting. I think that idea would be very cool with the Magus of the Moon build, where people are likely fetching out their basics really early against you so when you PtE them, they might not have any basics left in the library to get. Conversely though, it could backfire if they DO have basics left and you have Magus in play.

[badjuju]

I know it's not much of a sample size, but a friend and I got together during a break and played 10 pre-board games - Eva Green (w/ Bob, sans Pulse) vs Borzhov Aggro (the updated vanilla list from the OP).

Games came down to the wire, but I won 7 of the 10 pre-board games. I won't sweeten things up though - Bob was treating me MUCH better than he was treating my friend (though the relatively low CC of Borzhov helps a lot). More on this after I address some of the posts above, since it's all related.

@ Swords vs Terminate vs Snuff vs Path

I would agree to count Snuff out. The deck is already very painful with the fetchlands, Thoughtseize, and Bob (even the longer games I do win, I've dealt at least 5-7 damage to myself to get there). Swords was actually very counter-productive today. I've realized that, due to Lavamancer, I can actually burn most threats down. Even when my opponent cast Tombstalker, I just EOT bolted+Lavamancered it. When I had swords however, I actually scratched my head. Letting my opponent gain 4-6 life by swordsing a goyf or stalker was a really big setback. I never used swords on my own creatures today, even though I thought about it a few times, mainly because my creatures are so puny that it doesn't even matter. Path of Exile would have been perfect against Eva Green, cause I usually won't need to use that kind of removal till a threat that I can't burn hits the table, and by then the extra basic is near irrelevant. I would still consider Terminate too though - it's just a very good card overall, and as a two-of it acts a lot like a Path to Exile would late game. However, I do agree that sometimes I can get stuck on lands, especially if there's any resource denial going on.

A few other notes...

- I was actually pretty surprised at how well my creatures played today. I was never dissatisfied with any of them, and the two that really performed superbly were Grim Lavamancer and Mother of Runes. However, between Tidehollow Sculler, Grim Lavamancer, and Dark Confidant, I sometimes had a board full of 2/2s that didn't want to attack because they were too valuable if left alive - which is actually fine. I've realized that this archetype can afford to sit around and draw into enough removal to clear the path. Creatures like Figure of Destiny and Serra Avenger really pulled through the damage.
- I've finally realized why I like this deck more than Deadguy. It's all in the burn. There were times when my friend would draw Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach or even Duress late game, he would just sorta sit there and do nothing with it. With Borzhov, every topdeck I make is a potential threat or a way to remove opposing threats OR just toss it to the dome.
- I originally wanted to up the number of fetchlands, but after seeing how damage I was inflicting on myself, I think I'll reconsider. I almost always had enough food for lavamancer to do his job, so I'm not too worried about it.
- I don't usually play aggro in Legacy, but it seems like the games where I didn't have Bob, I was just really dry at times. Luckily my creatures are amazing enough by themselves to stall time, but I still wish there was some way to keep the engine running sometimes. Looking at other similar lists on deckcheck, there is no answer to this problem - the choice of card quality over card advantage.
- If I were to make any changes, it would probably be to add more burn or maybe Jitte. Needs a little more punch.

I understand that this is just ONE matchup and that my sample-size was small as hell, but I was seriously pleased with the deck's initial performance. It would also seem like Eva Green would be slightly in my favor, since I can so easily take care of his threats with my truckload of removal spells and Eva Green's resource denial hurts me a lot less than it does other archetypes.

Will do more testing this weekend, keep the ideas flowing guys. For now, -2 StP +2 Path.

[ssilver]

I have been having trouble getting to three lands, and am adding +1 something, probably a plains (LD sucks without a vial or confidant in play). From what I have been running into lifeloss wise Running snuffout MD, I really don't think its what this deck is looking for. My games might have been odd though.

[Carabas]

Could Augury Adept have some use in here? It works like a second confidant, and could gain you back some of the life you lose yourself.

[badjuju]

I have been having trouble getting to three lands, and am adding +1 something, probably a plains (LD sucks without a vial or confidant in play). From what I have been running into lifeloss wise Running snuffout MD, I really don't think its what this deck is looking for. My games might have been odd though.

I haven't had problems with mana. I'm actually flooded with mana most the time. Even when I played vs Eva Green I could still pretty much always cast my spells without problem.

Also, try Path to Exile and tell me how it works out for you.


Could Augury Adept have some use in here? It works like a second confidant, and could gain you back some of the life you lose yourself.

I like the idea, but we're a bit tight on space and she's a bit high on the curve. I would like to try her though, cause she has two points that counteract the problems of the deck - I just wish she didn't cost so much to play >.<

[eq.firemind]

Nice deck, Yesmilord!
I've enjoyed a lot playing it in MWS.

Some thoughts:

I'm not very pleased with Serra Avenger in no-vial version 'cause turn 4 can be too late.

I think about Sygg, River Cutthroat as some additional card advantage. His :b::b: can be a trouble and 1 power is not good for aggro deck, but I'll try to fit him in Vial version.

IMHO Lightning Helix's lifegain is enough to feel comfortable with Bob/'seize/fetches, so dudes like Augury Adept are unneeded here.

[nix]

[QUOTE=Esper3k;343806] (Snuff out is) really painful when you flip it from Dark Confidant.
[QUOTE]

i forgot aout that. and even if you dont flip it to the bob, youre gonna lose the life anyway, and make it so you might as well have.

the two choices in my mind now are pte and terminate, with snuff out and stp in the background, because the life swings caused by them seem to be too painful to bear.

im still unsure whether to run pte or terminate though.

terminate:
1. Costs 2
2. only puts the creature in the yard (can be recurred pretty easily)

PTE:
1. Costs 1
2. RFGs the creature (it wont come back)
3. Puts your tempo at a sometimes pretty significant disadvantsage. It lets your ooponent cast all sorts of mean stuff a turn earlier. (humility, wog, deed, tombstalker)
or if they are playing an aggro deck, they can just have bigger, better creatures than you.

it seems like a pretty close fight, and i honestly dont know which one i would go with. but maybe ive helped you to make a good decision.

[Patrunkenphat7]

If you want to add more cards to help the draw engine, mask of memory seems quite good in this deck.

[Esper3k]

Just on your PTE point of letting your opponent cast stuff a turn earlier - in the specific example of Tombstalker, I think they'd be able to cast the same turn anyways (when comparing PTE vs Terminate).

Here's the two situations:

1) You Terminate their creature - they get +1 card in the Graveyard, which they can now Delve with.
2) You Path to Exile their creature - they get +1 Land, which they can now use to cast the Tombstalker.

Fundamentally, in the case of opposing Tombstalkers coming out faster, I don't see terribly much difference between Terminate and PTE.

PTE's drawback is of course worse since they get a recurring source of mana, but for Tombstalkers, I think it's about the same.

[ssilver]

Mask of Memory is Terrible. You only get the cards if you deal damage to an opponent, which means you want it on creatures with evasion, which none of our creatures have. Every slot in the deck needs to be dedicated to providing fast cheap beats or clearing the way for the fast cheap beats. Mask of Memory does neither. The only cheap equipment that achieves this is Jitte, and even then you need four mana total to play and equip it.

[badjuju]

@Path to Exile

If you guys read what I wrote earlier, I think Path is probably the better choice overall. Why? Your burn serves as adequate removal early on. You're running Path as a 2-of for situations where you need to get rid of a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker; you're not running it as a 4-of "perfect removal" spell. In my experience, I can even just burn out opposing goyfs and stalkers thanks to Lavamancer. It might be card disadvantage, but at least the option will always be there, especially against decks like BG that only have 16 threats (and only 2 of them that can't usually be burnt out). By the time you'll need to cast Path, the extra land should be irrelevant, though within the first few turns, Path is pretty terrible.

@Serra Avenger

I've actually had no qualms with her. She provides the solid damage and evasion the deck sorely needs. Yes, only being able to play her on turn 4 is a bit of an annoyance, so maybe the list should drop her down to 3 and bump something else to 4? Maybe Figure? Although I don't really want 4x Figure either, since he's so mana intensive early game. Any thoughts on this?

[nix]

PTE's drawback is of course worse since they get a recurring source of mana, but for Tombstalkers, I think it's about the same.

you are 100% correct, sorry

@ Serra avenger
4x would be good if you are running aether vial, but if yuore not running vial, keep it at 3.

im not sure wat to replace it with though. Maybe mom#4?

[Phantom]

I think you're off in the wrong direction here. You take the aggressiveness of red, supplement it with the disruption of black, and negate that aggressiveness and speed with the control element of white. Or you take the disruption of black, supplement it with the control of white, but then add the aggressiveness of red? You're pulling the deck in opposite directions.

You can't compete on the aggro control midrange spectrum. Your creatures are smaller, your disruption worse, and your sources of card advantage/quality more fragile.

Basically, I think you should either go the aggressive route, which consists of dropping white and adding green (think Goyf Sligh + Confidant and Thoughtseize). Or you can go the other way and drop red for green and try to compete in the aggro control world with either a weenie or mid range rock build.

[badjuju]

I think you're off in the wrong direction here. You take the aggressiveness of red, supplement it with the disruption of black, and negate that aggressiveness and speed with the control element of white. Or you take the disruption of black, supplement it with the control of white, but then add the aggressiveness of red? You're pulling the deck in opposite directions.

You can't compete on the aggro control midrange spectrum. Your creatures are smaller, your disruption worse, and your sources of card advantage/quality more fragile.

Basically, I think you should either go the aggressive route, which consists of dropping white and adding green (think Goyf Sligh + Confidant and Thoughtseize). Or you can go the other way and drop red for green and try to compete in the aggro control world with either a weenie or mid range rock build.

You make a solid argument, but I would like to make a few points myself.

It's hard to make clear-cut comparisons between the different archetypes when there are so many factors to consider. The key point of Borzhov is in its card quality to mana cost ratio. The deck takes the best points of all three colors and merges them into one. Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, and Thoughtseize could all potentially do the same thing, but the over-redundancy allows for flexibility: burn that serves as removal also serves as lethal dome damage, the addition of black pinpoints to remove very specific threats that the deck couldn't otherwise handle with its cheap answers, and white with creatures that are weaker in a power/toughness sense, but come with abilities that supplement the overall gameplan. This argument has to be modified when addressing various archetypes that Borzhov is being compared to, but these points remain the same.

This deck CAN compete with the aggro control spectrum because of the amount of removal that is present in the deck. They just can't keep a threat on the board for very long, especially if they run less of them than this deck. The disruption in the deck isn't worse, there's just less of it. The deck doesn't rely at all on resource denial, but rather just pinpoint hand disruption to deal with specific, troublesome threats that can't be handled by the burn (or even Vindicate at that). The only card quality that suffers is creature size, but that's unavoidable with the absence of green. What the deck aims for is to play the cheapest efficient creatures of each color, and let the removal clear a pathway for the rest. I'd argue that the card quality here is much higher than most aggro decks when you see Borzhov in a larger context and how the flexibility allows the deck to do what it does best.

So what can this deck do that the other aggro and aggro control archetypes can't do? In short, it sacrificed the brute strength of green for the flexibility that white offers. Borzhov is ALL business. Every card in the deck says: damage or removing something that prevents me from doing damage. There are no pre-emptive resource denial strategies nor balls to the wall aggro that might run out of gas at any moment. There is a serious consideration of dropping cheap threats that have insane utility, snatching game-winners out of your opponent's hand, and burning the rest - be it opposing creatures in the aggro matchup or straight to the dome in all others. Lastly, the card cost to quality is insane in this deck. Everything is so cheap - I never have to choose between playing a threat and removing a threat, because I can usually do both.

I'm not saying you're wrong in any way, and I do agree that the omission of green certainly hurts the power and speed of the deck, but what I am trying to say is that decision my not necessarily be a faulty one. I am open to all criticism and advice, but I take everything with a grain of salt at this point, both because I have not thoroughly tested this archetype with the gauntlet, nor has anyone else (that I've come across).

Thanks for chiming in though, I don't think I could push the deck forward if people didn't question the validity of this archetype. :smile: