Not seeing red

[Pltnmngl]

Are there any red cards that just don't see play, but should in Legacy?

[DrJones]

From the top of my head, I would say Orcish Lumberjack, Fork and War Elemental.

[Julian23]

Goblin Welder?

[ykpon]

Ruination, Mana Clash :smile:

[DrJones]

Also Gamble, and maybe Winds of Change, which is quite fun against those combo decks that mulligan multiple times.

[Finn]

Gamble in particular is so spicy good in Loam decks. You have to build them differently to take full advantage of it though, and my assumption is that nobody is willing to.

In general Red, the color is a bit weak these days since its classic benefits from direct damage that doubles as cheap creature hate is really weak against the big bitches that see so much play.

[Bryant Cook]

Flametongue Kavu, thanks 'Goyf.

[puppektion]

Does anyone play Grim Lavamancer anymore?

[Citrus-God]

Flametongue Kavu, thanks 'Goyf.

Remember those days where Werebear was so good, FtK would just shoot them down and shit? Aww... so classic.

Fledgling Dragon used to be good.

[humppa]

Does anyone play Grim Lavamancer anymore?

I do - in my goyfsligh. He's really great (maybe only in my meta, but still great for me :))

[THEchubbymuffin]

Burning of xinye.dec

It's actually not a bad deck. Its main problem is creatures that are 4/5 for 1G.

[chokin]

Mountain Goat.

But for serious, I think that Fling is ok in some decks. In Affinity, Atog+Fling can easily end games.

[Omega]

Fling is good until it meets a counterspell

Robert

[emidln]

Does anyone play Grim Lavamancer anymore?

I've heard talk from some japanese players about adding Grim Lavamancer to tempo thresh in order to improve the goyf on goyf situations as well as to deal with misc other stuff.

[kabal]

I've heard talk from some japanese players about adding Grim Lavamancer to tempo thresh in order to improve the goyf on goyf situations as well as to deal with misc other stuff.

Does not seem to synergistic with mongoose.

[emidln]

Does not seem to synergistic with mongoose.

I believe it replaces Mongoose on the theory that Mongoose is getting through less and less while Lavamancer is money against Survival Elves, Merfolk, the mirror, etc.

[Finn]

A turn 1 Lavamancer game 1 against some Merfolk builds requires a combination of 3 lords, a Vial, a counterspell, plenty of available mana, and a seance to win against. That phucker may be coming back if these neo-weenie decks continue to perform.

[Phoenix Ignition]

A turn 1 Lavamancer game 1 against some Merfolk builds requires a combination of 3 lords, a Vial, a counterspell, plenty of available mana, and a seance to win against. That phucker may be coming back if these neo-weenie decks continue to perform.

What happened to just wastelanding their only source of red and keeping them off their duals?

Granted he's a huge bitch and would be 100x harder to deal with than a lowly mongoose, but let's not blow this out of proportion.

[Mayk0l]

The best red card nobody plays is Ankh of Mishra, seriously

[Phoenix Ignition]

The best red card nobody plays is Ankh of Mishra, seriously

When all of the major threats of Legacy lie in the 1-3 land range, Ankh will almost always be too slow. It's terrible if you draw it late game, and only significantly hurts a few of the decks out there. This is one of those that would be playable if you make a deck around it, but if you're making a deck around an artifact, Ankh of Mishra is one of the last ones you should try.

And it honestly just doesn't fit in any deck. It's perfectly suited for a burn deck, but to get the most out of it you should be laying it turn 1. Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond don't really go with mono red, and if they do you would rather be playing Chalice.

[Finn]

@phoenix
That is true enough. My experience has been against goyfsligh. There are a lot of basic mountains in that. It was pretty ugly.

[Mayk0l]

When all of the major threats of Legacy lie in the 1-3 land range, Ankh will almost always be too slow.
I have no idea what you mean with slow. It comes down just as fast as a Chalice would. It comes down faster than Blood Moon does; and even though people get the chance to fetch a basic, Blood Moon is still considered powerful. It comes down turn 1 with a combination of any of the following: Land/Mox, Mox/Mox, Stompyland, Land/Spirit Guide, Mox/SG, etc.etc. Gripping it takes three mana, which is usually three lands, which, in Legacy, is 15 damage. Seems pretty neat for 2 mana.



It's terrible if you draw it late game
So is Trinisphere



and only significantly hurts a few of the decks out there.
You mean those few DTB decks? Like Zoo with only 12 fetchlands? Aggro Loam with 26 lands and ways of recurring them? Landstill with their solid manabase and complete lack of fetches? Or perhaps Goblins and Goyf Sligh, which obviously run no fetches whatsoever? Did I mention that Survival fetches too? Don't even get me started on Decks like Team America with their awesome manabase, or the Countertop decks (both the Tempo and the CBTop builds). The only deck I'd call it weak against is Merfolk.




And it honestly just doesn't fit in any deck.
How about, instead of looking into these forums for a deck to fit a card in, trying to build your own deck? I'm trying :)


you would rather just drop a Chalice
However badly you might want it, you can still only run 4 Chalices.

A red deck doesn't necessarily have to be a stupid Burn deck. Ankh could be fit into a red Stompy or a red Staxx deck in my opinion. (Again, a variant of, not necessarily the decks on this forum)

[MattH]

Goblin Welder takes this one in a cakewalk.

[puppektion]

I have no idea what you mean with slow. It comes down just as fast as a Chalice would. It comes down faster than Blood Moon does; and even though people get the chance to fetch a basic, Blood Moon is still considered powerful. It comes down turn 1 with a combination of any of the following: Land/Mox, Mox/Mox, Stompyland, Land/Spirit Guide, Mox/SG, etc.etc.

Decks running chalice like to power it out on turn 1: Stax, Stompy, Loam... They all use at least *some* acceleration, Stax and Stompy both have the T:2 lands, and Mox, Loam just has the mox. Saying that Ankh comes down faster than Blood Moon is just pushing it; Have you ever seen Dragon Stompy played?


Gripping it takes three mana, which is usually three lands, which, in Legacy, is 15 damage. Seems pretty neat for 2 mana.

How did you do that math?



A red deck doesn't necessarily have to be a stupid Burn deck. Ankh could be fit into a red Stompy or a red Staxx deck in my opinion. (Again, a variant of, not necessarily the decks on this forum)

Ouch. That's awfully narrow-minded of you to say. Goblins, Aggro Loam, Tempo Thresh, and Zoo all run red (some more than others), but by no means are a "stupid burn deck". Even Belcher is mostly red, and running 0 burn cards at all.

Red stompy probably wouldn't like to push it there; Ancient Tomb has a tendency to do damage to you as well, and most of the time you want to go for hellbent, which would entail playing your lands. Red stax wouldn't want to play it either, or else your Smokestack + Crucible synergy goes straight out the crapper.


And those are the thoughts that I was able to assemble into actual words.

-Jackson Puppek

[zulander]

P.S Ankh isn't red.

[Otter]

How did you do that math?

3x Fetch under Ankh is 15 damage.

Now obviously you won't always be on the play with a Tomb/City/SSG and they won't always draw triple Fetches, so he was putting out a bit of an extreme scenario. More seriously though, there's no denying that Ankh really hoses the hell out of Fetches, which are the format's staple lands. Strength vs Fetches is a desirable effect in red, because most decks playing against red really rely on their Fetches to go get basics out before a Bloodmoon hits. Now I'm not going to say that Ankh is the format-breaker that's around the corner, but I think it's definitely underrated.

I'm kind of curious to cook up a something in a Dragon Stompy shell that runs 4x Ankh and 4x Price of Progress. That could get interesting, though somewhat in conflict with a fast Chalice @ 2. *shrug* I wouldn't dismiss it offhand, there's a lot of potential for damage there.


P.S Ankh isn't red.

And the prize for the worst attempt to cover up "post +1" goes to. . .

[conboy31]

This is somewhat off topic, but I just two days ago I was thinking about the dearth of money red cards as I paged through my red binder. It is worth about 25% vs the rest of the colors.

There are so few red cards that are >10$. Especially when starter/3k are eliminated. I would guess it is partly a function of red cards not seeing a lot of play, but also that some of the cards are fairly weak or the design space which they were designated is not strong versus the metagame or other designs.

[puppektion]

I'm kind of curious to cook up a something in a Dragon Stompy shell that runs 4x Ankh and 4x Price of Progress. That could get interesting, though somewhat in conflict with a fast Chalice @ 2. *shrug* I wouldn't dismiss it offhand, there's a lot of potential for damage there.

Price of Progress in dragon stompy? I'd sooner rip out my intestines and use them as sleeves for Thresh.

But seriously, the 1R cost doesn't work well with the 8 T:2 lands you're running, those lands are also non-basic, and half of them are going to be hurting you in the first place. My fear would be less about the Chalice at 2 and more at the lack of synergy with everything else.


I do have to say, I would like to see welder make a comeback. I guess its days have passed as Belcher tech, but it's still powerful... Maybe someone'll come up with the right shell for it.

[Otter]

Price of Progress in dragon stompy? I'd sooner rip out my intestines and use them as sleeves for Thresh.

But seriously, the 1R cost doesn't work well with the 8 T:2 lands you're running, those lands are also non-basic, and half of them are going to be hurting you in the first place. My fear would be less about the Chalice at 2 and more at the lack of synergy with everything else.

It'd probably play incredibly suicidally, but I feel like Ankh needs to hit turn 1 if you're going to be playing it, which kind of locks you into Tomb/Traitors unless you want to use Chrome Mox or SSG, which I'm highly skeptical about. And once you're already playing those Tomb/Traitors, filling in in Dragon Stompy around it seems like the best choice. Price might be awful, but if you were racking up enough damage via Ankh, them dying before you do would be all that matters.

The, "Oops, you die!" potential is pretty high, which makes me interested in trying some games with it. It probably rolls over and dies over a large series of games due to probably even worst consistancy issues than regular Dragon Stompy, so I'm really rather skeptical. I still want to try it though.

[Mayk0l]

It'd probably play incredibly suicidally, but I feel like Ankh needs to hit turn 1 if you're going to be playing it, which kind of locks you into Tomb/Traitors unless you want to use Chrome Mox or SSG, which I'm highly skeptical about. And once you're already playing those Tomb/Traitors, filling in in Dragon Stompy around it seems like the best choice. Price might be awful, but if you were racking up enough damage via Ankh, them dying before you do would be all that matters.

The, "Oops, you die!" potential is pretty high, which makes me interested in trying some games with it. It probably rolls over and dies over a large series of games due to probably even worst consistancy issues than regular Dragon Stompy, so I'm really rather skeptical. I still want to try it though.


That's what I was thinking :)

[Finn]

Well you can beef up the consistency part by simply adding in some Zo Zu sauce. The question at that point becomes what do you do for the rest of the damage production. This is necessarily an aggro deck first and foremost after all. Bolts suck with double lands but are really good with ankh.

So you have to decide what the rest will look like in the early going or you are going to have some serious anti-synergy issues to face later. Considering howmuch Zo Zu sucks with double lands, I might take a slower controllish approach with old fashioned land destruction.

[MTG-Fan]

From the top of my head, I would say Orcish Lumberjack, Fork and War Elemental.

After reading this post, I checked out Orcish Lumberjack in magiccards.info for the first time. A red/green dark ritual at the cost of a land? Why is this not being played, seriously? There has to be a way to exploit this kind of mana accel?

[C.P.]

After reading this post, I checked out Orcish Lumberjack in magiccards.info for the first time. A red/green dark ritual at the cost of a land? Why is this not being played, seriously? There has to be a way to exploit this kind of mana accel?

LED
Seething song
Dark Ritual
Moxen
ESG/SSG

are all better then it. If you want to play a midrange deck without the card disadvantage, Birds and Co. are better.

[rufus]

LED
Seething song
Dark Ritual
Moxen
ESG/SSG

are all better then it. If you want to play a midrange deck without the card disadvantage, Birds and Co. are better.

You forgot Tinder Wall.

I guess Dragonstorm is one of those cards that people keep trying to get to work.

[DrJones]

LED
Seething song
Dark Ritual
Moxen
ESG/SSG

are all better then it. If you want to play a midrange deck without the card disadvantage, Birds and Co. are better.Lol. You've obviously never played Orcish Lumberjack, haven't you?

[C.P.]

Lol. You've obviously never played Orcish Lumberjack, haven't you?

I did, although it was like 8 years ago. You've obviously never Developed mana in midrange deck, have you?

In Legacy, there are 2 general use for Mana acc. right now.

1. More immediate, one-shot acceleration. These are the ones you can find in storm combo and others, and gives you that one time mana to play 'You win' spell. Lumberjack is awful in this case, because most decks that does this are land light and needs that mana now.

2. Long term accerations. Lumberjack belongs here. This includes two mana lands, creature acc like birds, and Pseudo-Acceleration like Vial. These gives long term mana, and allows user to afford higher curve. Stompy decks and Stax are all about first turn plays, thus Lumberjack does not have place in such decks. That leaves midrange-ish decks that wants mana burst.


So, what midrange decks in legacy wants 3 mana over a land? And do this over and over so you would not have land? Because, if you will use it only once, I'm sure ritual effects are better.

[DrJones]

So, what midrange decks in legacy wants 3 mana over a land?
There is a misconception here, and that is that you assume Orcish Lumberjack provide 3 mana for a land, when it's actually 4 mana. A deck playing Lumberjack on turn 1 is practically guaranteed to get 5 mana on turn 2. Now, a deck that could benefit from that would be Red/Green Madness (which I think is superior to the more popular blue/green version). In that deck, I usually got ultra-explosive starts such as 2nd turn rancored/reckless charged creatures like Spellbreaker Behemots, blastoderm, karn or even molder slugs. Losing a land was of so little concern, I even played 4 fireblasts on top of it, and I actually beat many fully powered vintage decks like ST4CKS (4.000 dollars) with a cheapass deck of 60$, from which 55$ came from the four taigas, lol.

If the orc isn't used more, it's because it puts the mana curve on drugs, and to get the most of that crazy pattern you are forced to tailor the deck around it; In fact, you'll find that the main problem of the card is that the rest of R/G mana acceleration just can't match it, with only Timber Wall being almost as good, so there's the risk you end stuck with a 4-5cc card that you want to play on turn 2, but the mana is not there (and a 3cc card would be a waste of potential). Nothing you can't fudge with a Wild Mongrel or a Survival of the Fittest, but the risk is still there.

I'm biased here, of course. I wouldn't have mentioned the card if I wasn't conviced of its playability.

[Arctic_Slicer]

There once was a time when it was generally consider that red was the best color in legacy; now 2 years later it is generally considered the worst and it's all because of one creature named Tarmogoyf.

[ThatGuyThere]

So, what midrange decks in legacy wants 3 mana over a land?

Uhm, reuse the land? Loam, Crucible, Exploration?

Because the ability to flip on the "+3 mana" button is pretty awesome.

...of course, then, just like Welder, it's attached to an itty-bitty 1/1 body.

[C.P.]

Uhm, reuse the land? Loam, Crucible, Exploration?

Because the ability to flip on the "+3 mana" button is pretty awesome.

...of course, then, just like Welder, it's attached to an itty-bitty 1/1 body.

Also, if the deck runs Loam, Crucible, ETC, isn't manabond just better? Or Squandered Resources.

[DrJones]

Well, you can run loam or crucible in a deck with Orcish Lumberjack, but if the sole purpose of running them is to reuse the land, then you are doing the same mistake that those that included Circle of Protection: Black in their deck to prevent the damage from their Pestilence. You can't abuse a card with that mentality.
Think this way: if you build your deck well, you shouldn't worry AT ALL about that land. Take into account that a single activation is usually enough to put you way ahead of your opponent, so there's no fear of losing tempo. If any, you just add more lands to the deck.

[MTG-Fan]

If the orc isn't used more, it's because it puts the mana curve on drugs, and to get the most of that crazy pattern you are forced to tailor the deck around it; In fact, you'll find that the main problem of the card is that the rest of R/G mana acceleration just can't match it, with only Timber Wall being almost as good, so there's the risk you end stuck with a 4-5cc card that you want to play on turn 2, but the mana is not there (and a 3cc card would be a waste of potential). Nothing you can't fudge with a Wild Mongrel or a Survival of the Fittest, but the risk is still there.


This makes a lot of sense. The only reason I can see for its lack of popularity is that there is nothing that can match its raw power and thus it is hard to ensure consistency in a strategy that depends on 4-5 mana being available on the 2nd turn.

.

[irrelevant]

Goblin Welder takes this one in a cakewalk.

QFT

[Finn]

Re Lumberjack:

I remember this guy being a bombshell back in the day, but lemme ask you something about the Lumberjack in competitive Legacy. What are you going to use the mana for? Seeing as how the design is necessarily wanting to remain at 5 mana, what do you plan to land with that mana? If you said anything other than "2 Tarmos" or "A Tarmo and a Terravore" perhaps, or something quite similar, I'm here to tell you that the design is doomed to failure.

All I'm saying is that you can go packing some creature that costs 5 if you want. But it is not going to be enough better than a Tarmo that it will be worth having it sit dead in your hand in any game that you can't manage the 5 mana on turn 2.

[DrJones]

Re Lumberjack:

I remember this guy being a bombshell back in the day, but lemme ask you something about the Lumberjack in competitive Legacy. What are you going to use the mana for? Seeing as how the design is necessarily wanting to remain at 5 mana, what do you plan to land with that mana? If you said anything other than "2 Tarmos" or "A Tarmo and a Terravore" perhaps, or something quite similar, I'm here to tell you that the design is doomed to failure.Well, the only examples I can give are from the red-green madness build I had years ago, but here were some things I did with 5 mana on turn 2:

1. GG -> Mongrel: discard Arrogant Wurm. GGG -> Arrogant Wurm. Discard Anger -> Attack for 8 (this one was also doable with Lion's Eye Diamond)
2. GG -> Survival of the Fittest. G -> discard rootwalla to search rootwalla (repeat three times). Next turn use 4 mana to pump them.
3. R -> Kird Ape. R -> Reckless Charge. Then flashback of reckless charge or, if lucky, G -> Berserk. G -> Berserk

About 4cc+ cards, here are other ideas:

3. G -> 1cc green creature. GGGG -> Natural Order.
4. Jokulhaups/Obliterate, etc.
5. Knollspine Dragon/Broodmate Dragon
6. Deus of Calamity/Wort, the raidmother/Djinn Illuminatus?

Also, I think Reckless Charge should be played more in legacy.

[leander?]

I really like the idea of Madness with lumberjack. Do you have a decklist?

Curently I'm really liking this with Lumberjack:

1 Mountain
7 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Orcish Lumberjack
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Blastoderm
4 Spellbreaker Behemoth
2 Lumbering Satyr
4 Deus of Calamity

3 Fires of Yavimaya
3 Pandemonium
3 Saproling Burst
2 Banefire

[rufus]

Re Lumberjack:

I remember this guy being a bombshell back in the day, but lemme ask you something about the Lumberjack in competitive Legacy. What are you going to use the mana for?

In theory, something like Dragonstorm would be pretty compatible with him. The storm count doesn't have to be huge , and the deck can run a bunch of other relatively color-agnostic acceleration.

[Forbiddian]

There is a misconception here, and that is that you assume Orcish Lumberjack provide 3 mana for a land, when it's actually 4 mana. A deck playing Lumberjack on turn 1 is practically guaranteed to get 5 mana on turn 2. Now, a deck that could benefit from that would be Red/Green Madness (which I think is superior to the more popular blue/green version). In that deck, I usually got ultra-explosive starts such as 2nd turn rancored/reckless charged creatures like Spellbreaker Behemots, blastoderm, karn or even molder slugs. Losing a land was of so little concern, I even played 4 fireblasts on top of it, and I actually beat many fully powered vintage decks like ST4CKS (4.000 dollars) with a cheapass deck of 60$, from which 55$ came from the four taigas, lol.

If the orc isn't used more, it's because it puts the mana curve on drugs, and to get the most of that crazy pattern you are forced to tailor the deck around it; In fact, you'll find that the main problem of the card is that the rest of R/G mana acceleration just can't match it, with only Timber Wall being almost as good, so there's the risk you end stuck with a 4-5cc card that you want to play on turn 2, but the mana is not there (and a 3cc card would be a waste of potential). Nothing you can't fudge with a Wild Mongrel or a Survival of the Fittest, but the risk is still there.

I'm biased here, of course. I wouldn't have mentioned the card if I wasn't conviced of its playability.

Ok, first of all, YOUR math is wrong. How does Orcish Lumberjack add 4 mana? It says sac a forest for 3. Are you counting tapping the land?

That's the same logic that people say Dark Ritual adds 3 or that Arcane Denial is card parity because you draw 2 cards anyway. It's simply the wrong way of looking at the game, and you'll end up with the wrong conclusion every single time.

Orcish Lumberjack takes 1 to put into play and then later on lets you convert a forest into 3 mana, giving you +3 mana.




Here are some problems with Orcish Lumberjack:

#1: Primarily it gives card disadvantage. I could easily justify saccing a land for 3 mana (if I could do that easily, I would in every single deck I can think of), but a lot of people forget that you also invest in the Orcish Lumberjack himself.

If you only plan on using it just once for critical second turn, you have to really question the strength of that play, since whatever card you stick out has to go at least 3:1 (one for the forest, one for the Orcish Lumberjack (woot for a 1/1), and one for the card you cast).


Which brings us to:

#2: There just aren't ANY good 5 or 6 drops that are playable in Legacy in green or red, especially when you count the fact that more than half the games are going to be played without an Orcish Lumberjack. Just on theoretical limits, we've already established that it has to be about on the level of 3:1 to be worth it at all. With the prevalence of countermagic and cheap 1:1 removal, I don't see that happening.

Note the criteria: It has to be about on the 3:1 power level for 5-6 mana, AND it has to be playable without the Orcish Lumberjack since half the games you won't be seeing a Lumberjack anyway.

I'd go so far as to say that no card exists that fits those criteria, let alone the multiples you'd need (probably you'd need 8-12 cards in the deck that could do that) to justify running 4 Lumberjacks. And even if cards existed to make such a deck exist:

#3: There's countermagic. You're stuck playing Green/Red in what is now pretty much a combo shell. Even if you think you're some aggro deck: You're not. If your bomb gets Dazed, Swordsed, Forced, whatever, you're down 3:1 or 3:2 and you don't have enough lands to try again, probably.

Basically you're a combo deck and you're running the two worst possible colors for gathering and protecting a combo.

Actually, it has to be a lot better than 3:1. Nobody would pay: R, 1/1, During your next turn's mainphase, pay 2 and sacrifice a land to draw 2 cards. That card is awful. Even 4:1 is probably not good enough given the risk that your opponent can just counter. We're looking at something that has to be 5:1 or just win the game immediately.

#3: Almost forgot to mention: The lumberjack requires huge investment beyond the card disadvantage. You give up a land, not from hand, but from in play (The land drop is incredibly important, a land in hand is not nearly as valuable as a land in play). Also, you invest your turn 1 in an Orcish Lumberjack. I don't have to explain how critical turn 1 is in Legacy and how crappy a 1/1 vanilla is. You better count on using the ability, which gives ridiculous land constraints.

#4: A small side-effect, but Orcish Lumberjacks are also BS-dead in multiples or off the topdeck (which happen about half the time).



But the bottom line is this: Orcish Lumberjack requires you to play a fucked up deck. The deck has to curve out to 5-7, and it has to be prepared for the lategame and capable of stalling until the late game if it doesn't see a Lumberjack, but the deck also has to not care about sacrificing lands in order to make a bombtastic early game play. So it'd be like a 22+ land Red/Green control deck that also is a 14-land combo deck.

Although Orcish Lumberjack in theory could be good, it's impossible to abuse with the current card material.

There are no Red/Green 5-6 cc cards that net 4:1 or win the game (has to be better than 3:1) early game and are also extremely strong late game. Let alone a deck that could support the ridiculous land transition.


And even if that card existed, enter 3BB Ad Nauseum, which is better in a better color.


The only card I could possibly think it would fit in is Goblins, which has the high CC guys and the ability to throw meat through the breach and actually take advantage of having a 5-drop on turn 2.

The problem is: Goblins is ridiculously land hungry anyway and can use the endgame lands, Orcish Lumberjack is not a Goblin, and Goblins doesn't have any cards that are screaming, "Cut me! I suck!" Whatever gets cut from Goblins is going to be a pretty solid card, so it's more than likely that the transition isn't worth it. Also, Goblins doesn't want to skip its first two turns. If the SGC gets forced, Goblins has already lost.

[DrJones]

Forbiddian: Even though I would love to reply properly to your comment, I'm start wondering if it would be better to move all this discussion about orcish lumberjack to its own thread.

[Captain_Morgan]

Terminate, probably one of my favorite cards I rarely get to use these days. Then there's the decline of certain color combinations or ones that never got to take off like U/R and B/R.

[wizmentor]

Orcish Lumberjack allows turn 2 progenitus (via Natural Order).

T1: fetch/taiga/OL
T2: forest/birds (any 1cc green dork)/tap OL,sac forest for GGG/tap taiga/Cast Natural Order for Prog.

It's kind of sexy. Of course
T1: land/birds
T2: land/Remove ESG/Natural Order for Prog.

also works.

[keys]

Without permission/discard, a "turbo order" style deck isn't going to be very good.

[DragoFireheart]

Orcish Lumberjack allows turn 2 progenitus (via Natural Order).

T1: fetch/taiga/OL
T2: forest/birds (any 1cc green dork)/tap OL,sac forest for GGG/tap taiga/Cast Natural Order for Prog.

It's kind of sexy. Of course
T1: land/birds
T2: land/Remove ESG/Natural Order for Prog.

also works.

And how often are you going to get this 3 card combo?

[wizmentor]

Without permission/discard, a "turbo order" style deck isn't going to be very good.


And how often are you going to get this 3 card combo?

obviously, both of these questions/comments depend on the deck you are building. I was merely pointing out that there was a situation where the card in question could be useful.

Can either of you come up with another?

[DragoFireheart]

Can either of you come up with another?

Another combo? What? Why would I suggest another combination?

I'm not really interested in Lumberjack. Sure, he's cool in causal play to power out a turn 2 Shivan Dragon with the help of Timber Wall, but he leaves open too much card disadvantage.