[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[poxy14]

If we're keeping in RR for the "gotcha" effect, then most likely we are sacrificing something else (be it countermagic, burn or SB tech).

RUG is so tight MD and the sb slots too should be carefully analyzed...anyone using DISMEMBERS...this might be the only slot for RR...


against verdict, liliana and terminus and x batterskull/ griselbrand and blockers
+ abrupt decay...which we have no answer MD


Until poxy comes with some test results on RR...
major testing will happen oct6, next big tourney here...
testing against a friend last night vs UWBg deathblade...only positives for this card once im able to untap to 2 lands, in which case i wasnt able to cast..it was ready still to be digested by FoW in crucial moments, that DISM cant do....test results to follow still

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played Thresh Can in our lgs with a not exactly brilliant result.


Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental



R1, Jay with Goblins.
g1: I knew what I stand against and I opened a hand with 2 Delver, 2 Mongoose, 2 Rainforest and one FoW or what. I kept it, decided to hold Lackey with Mongoose and fly him over with Delver. unluckily he had two Wastes and after a long and exhausting game he won.
sb: Out counters, in creatue and artifact removal plus Needles
g2+g3: Although I never seen any Rough, I won these games on the backs of very very tight play. Also, Jay had quite a bad luck and in g3 he ended with a set of Matrons in hand and no way to play them.


R2, Lenny with Mirror.
g1: He Stifled my Waste, them Wasted my Trop, Stifled my fetch, then revealed two Goyfs. That's all she wrote.
sb: I boarded incorrectly, maybe. I took out Forces and a mix of some crap, added REBs, Flus and Submerges. Maybe Flus should be kept in a box, but it's quite solid against Stifle. Also, 2 Blasts might be one too many...
g2: He flipped a Delver with Daze and as I was stuck on one land, I waited until i draw another, as i had important spells to resolve, lie a BS that could have moved me further. But this land never showed up, so I desperately tried Goose, BS and some else card and was hit by triple Daze, good game.


R3 Mat with UW Ctrl
g1: I mulled to four and beaten-and-bolted him down to five before he EOT ET for CB, already having SDT.
sb: out some removal and Goyf plus Ponder, a Daze or w/e, in Grip, Blats, Flus, Needles and Sulfur Elemental
g2: I cut him of mana and defeated him with a one-critter-per-wrath strategy, with the highlight of the match been EOT tapping three lands, playing the S. Elemental and saying "Resolves."
g3: Sadly I've lost this one, because RIP > Goyfs, but if I'd draw my sole KGrip, he'd be in a world of trouble. Nvm, because Mat, who was unlikely to reach the prizes, conceded to me in a very generous fashion. High five, man!


R4 Zee with Jund
g1: RUG > one Swamp. Stiflewaste rocks.
sb: I took Roughs (to stop DRS), Needles (to stop DRS and Lili), Submerges. I've seen Jitte in g1, but I decided to not board specifically for it, as I lacked place. I just hoped that Needle/Snare/Pierce would be enough.
g2+g3: I hardly remeber anything, butI know I made some small mistake when I didn't Waste his Bayou and after he played the 2nd Goyf (and my own abruptly decayed), it was all over for the side of good.


2-2


I wouldn't change anything in the above 75, but I really need to play better. Also, sometiems a bit more of a good luck would be really appreciated.

Not a bad evening at all, I didn't win anything, otoh I bought a japanese Wing Shards from one dude (who also bought a B/G fetch), sold a set of Tarns to second dude, got away a pretty beat Scrubland and a lp USea to a third dude (who also reserved two remaining Seas) and thrown three Carpets of Flowers unto a fourth dude, reducing the value of my evershrinking collection by some 412,5 USD. (412 USD counting the Wing Shards deal.)

[Barbed Blightning]

I've been running another sulfur elemental and one flex (sometimes ooze, loam or library) in place of your GY hate, BedDecks and never missed it. RIP and DRS have effectively scared dredge out of the format and reanimator is still favorable due to our plentiful countermagic and stifle. Otherwise, we have mirrored lists.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I've been running another sulfur elemental and one flex (sometimes ooze, loam or library) in place of your GY hate, BedDecks and never missed it. RIP and DRS have effectively scared dredge out of the format and reanimator is still favorable due to our plentiful countermagic and stifle. Otherwise, we have mirrored lists.
Yes, you're right and I'll finally cut the gy hate completely.
With the mere two cards it does nothing, and even against PiF combo, these cards are far from been bonebreaking. Yep, they stops PiF combo and Crypt also suppresses threshold, but a clever ANT pilot will sb his Chains of Vapor or Decay or w/e, maybe not for the second game, but definitley right after he sees one of the cards. As a double one-of this card does nothing against Dredge, because you need to play it asap and as long as you have one of them in thirty cards, you need far too much good luck to find them in time before Ichorid explodes.
Reanimator is extinct in our meta and I don't even fear that deck, it's either extremely unreliable or not really fast, at least when I look at the Tin Fins <-------------------------> Daze Reanimator scale.

Also, seems like I need to analyze my last tournaments and matchups, I think I'll start to make notes on the decks that were present. Because I can't remeber any other unfair deck than ANT (which in fact is not that unfair, they kill on turn3 and are not really fond of our Stifles, Wastes, Fows, Pierces, Snares, Dazes and Blasts), a deck that I played for years so I got quite an idea how to fight it.

I may keep one Surg. Extraction mainly for the "lol, you're trolled" factor when it disrupts opponents combo (e.g. removing countered IT or S&T), I may even consider the "good" old Waste-Extraction plan for the mirror (in this case I'd definitely play two Extractions), but other than that, there's hardly any reason to play a gy hate, esp. when there's not a single person piloting the Dredge/Reanimator deck AND I routinelly lose to fair decks.

I think that Clique is set in stone, the last card would be either a second Sulfele or maybe even 3rd Rough/Tumble. I'd appreciate the latter against Gobos, otoh, after Crypt+Cage removal, I think I should improve my PiF matchup (and it never hurts to up the chances against Show and Tell decks), so second Flusterstorm might it be.
Also, what's the correct number of Submerges? My R2 Mirror opponent played just two, saying that it's not that good card to warrant more than two slots - you want it once per game to force through the last points of dmg. I oppose this idea, as Submerge-and-fetch (to effectively "kill" the kritter) hardly ever happens, Submerge mostly just delays the Goyf/Delver; the card has also application in other mu, like Jund/k, Mav, whatever.
Because now I also think about Mind Harness/Threads of Disl. Yep, Threads are expensive, but unlike Harness, they can steal non-KotR utility creatures (read: Dark Confidant) and although Harness is cheaper to cast, the stolen Goyf has a cumulative upkeep whih is hardly a pro. (Otoh, KotR/DRS with a cumulative upkeep is not that painful, it kills fast or pays for itself.)

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I like the Ooze and LftL.

[Water_Wizard]

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I like the Ooze and LftL.

In the current meta, I don't like either.

Ooze saw its heyday when chants of "Grislebanned, Griselbanned" echoed throughout the halls of WOTC. Versus Reanimator, the plan was to survive turns 1-3 via counter-magic and then drop Ooze to lock the game down. Maverick and the mirror were also popular at this time, so Ooze provided benefits there. However, in the current environment, the drawbacks of Ooze (mana-intensiveness) do not outweigh its merits.

LftL is much the same. Historically, I ran LftL in the RUG sideboard. However, DRS, along with the current meta has decreased LftL's necessity.

Look at the current DTB:

Maverick - Runs DRS (produces mana and eats graveyards), Noble Heirarch, and has other ways to neutralize graveyards (Ooze, Bog).
ANT - unnecessary
Elves - unnecessary
Death and Taxes - helpful to rebuy lands and Wastelands to target Karakas and Port, although they will probably bring in RIP to combat Goyf and Mongoose
MonoU OmniTell - unnecessary
Miracles - unnecessary
Sneak Attack - unnecessary
RUG - helpful, although may be too slow (good for long games)
Team America - helpful, although they run DRS
Shardless BUG - helpful, although they run DRS
Goblins - probably unnecessary, as Vial and basic Mountains alleviate our Wastelands' effectiveness.
Jund - helpful, although they run DRS

In play testing, I found that LftL and DRS do not mix. They either use the DRS to eat the LftL or they use the DRS to produce mana to work around the Wasteland effect, eating all the lands that you have in your graveyard (so by the time you draw LftL, you have no lands to return).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I didn't think of LftL as a mean to recure Wastelands, but to fight the other Wasteland decks, mainly non-DRS ones like Gobos and RUG. Against RUG, basically one resolved LftL moves way further, because you brong back one more fetch to improve your future BS/Ponders, one Wasteland to annoy the opposing dude and one dual to play around Daze... wait, "to play" is enough.
Otoh, it's hardly stellar, just that I dislike to die without lands. RUG mirror is often time a garbage festival with each player struggling to do anything after they Waste and Stifle away their lands, Bolt their Delvers and watch in awe at each other while their Mongooses watch in awe at each other. Scooze and LftL break the mirror and are quite relevant in other mus. (Remember I gonna cut the gy hate.) Also, ain't that funny to exile in resp. the DRS targets? :smile:

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

I have been trying out various decks for the past few months. I did my rounds with American Delver, U/R Delver, Deathblade, and Shardless BUG. Recently my local meta has not been real advantageous for the Deathblade/Shardless type decks. So I made my way back to roots... RUG. Here is the list I ran and a short tournament report.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
1 Thought Scour
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
3 Submerge
2 Rough / Tumble

Chris with American Delver 2-0

In Game 1 I was able to Probe him early which allowed me to line all of my spells up very nicely. Game 2 I was able to get two lands with a Stifle and a Wasteland which kept all of my counters live. A Delver went all the way.


John with TES 2-0

Game 1 he missequenced a few cards on his combo turn which cost him the game. He could have made 12 Goblins off of an Empty if he played a slightly different line. But he didn't know what was in my hand and didn't have a Silence so I got there. In Game 2 I had all of the counter spells and a Delver/Goose tag team. They got there.


Mike with Dredge 2-1

I was really fast Game 1. Double Delver with Daze, Wasteland and a Bolt or two. I countered his fist discard attempt and then Wasted him off of land. The two Delvers made sure he didn't have lots of time to draw out of it. Game 2 he mulliganned to 4. I thought I had it in the bag. But I couldn't thresh my two Geese and he managed to get his engine online after numerous turns of doing nothing. Game 3 I was super fast and had a Surgical. I had turn one Delver with counter back up. I was able to Extract the only Dredger he discarded with the Extraction and then Wasted him off of land. I turn or two later I Wasted myself, Stifled my Waste and Dazed my Stifle to get Thresh for two Geese to make a lethal attack for 9.


Brendan with Manaless Dredge 0-2

I had zero interaction and died here... lol.


Ian with Burn 2-1

In Games 1 and 3 I was on the play, had a reasonable clock, and counter spells. Game 2 he was on the play and I was counter light.


I ended up 3rd out of like 18-20, which was good for $35 in store credit. The deck played pretty well. I was impressed with the singleton Probe. Prior to playing it, I was very skeptical of it. After seeing how impactful it was in my American Delver match up, I may give another a shot next week. The board might need a little work too... people at the shop constantly change what they are playing so it is hard to keep the sideboard consistent. At any rate, thanks for reading!

[Barbed Blightning]

@Sturtzilla: your list seems to be missing three cards. Spell pierce I assume?

How was the thought scour?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Congrats!
The Probe always amazes me, but as long a s it works for you, I won't argue with the result... :)

[Sturtzilla]

@Sturtzilla: your list seems to be missing three cards. Spell pierce I assume?

How was the thought scour?

You are correct. I also had 3 Spell Pierce. I amended the deck list in my previous post. As for Thought Scour, I boarded it out a lot. However the one or two games that I actually cast it, it was legit. We have been over this a good bit, but turbo-charging your Geese and Goyfs is a pretty big deal. Against the American Delver player I Scoured my self to power up a single Goose it was worth it. I didn't even get to stack first with a Brainstorm or Ponder to mill "dead cards." The simple ability to put three cards into the graveyard and to get a new card is great.



Congrats!
The Probe always amazes me, but as long a s it works for you, I won't argue with the result... :)

I am not going to claim that it is the best card for our flex slots. I was not really in favor of it before running the configuration posted above. I can see how 2-3 Probe can make combo and tempo match ups a lot easier. The combination of a replacement card, a card in our graveyard, and knowing the contents of your opponent's hand is pretty powerful. It also allows for very high velocity turns. Casting it for the 2 life keeps your mana free for counter spells, casting threats, or both.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played Canada for a 2:2 (or 3:1?) result yesterday. Report to follow right after I mop the floor. :rolleyes:


Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique

As you might see, I completely removed any sort of gy hate, as there is zero Reanimator in our meta, Sloshthedark's Dredge is not complete yet and PiF.dec I may kill without Crypt, while Flusterstorm and Clique works against ST combo.


R1, Vojta, D&T
g1: I dazed his Vial, played Mongoose and Goyf while he lacked anything interesting. On his 14 life he resolved SFM, found some equipment (was it Sword of Something and Something?) and immediatelly played it. I Pierced it, he payed with Ancient Tomb going down to twelve and hellbent. I top decked Bolt, got away the Mystic and my notes end there with him on four life.
sb: KGrip, Grudge, 2x R/T, 2x Needle, Sulfele, Clique (at least for g3); out: Dazes, Pierces, 2x FoW (with a general idea that Daze does nothing against deck with basics, Pierce doesn't stop eniugh cards, esp. as 5+ StP/PtE completely wrecks Goyfs and Fow may counter not only removal, but also creatures while been unconditional)
g2: Vojta's deck does what it has to do. Althoug I had triple threshed Mongoose at one point in game, it was not enough, esp. when my BS were not good enough and I was always stuck with something uselss. Seen few removal at all except for a turn1 Needle (Vial) was quite saddening, namely after a Wilt-Leaf Liege made it pretty hard for me to get rid of his future creatures. I attacked into Jitte-ed WLL, lost Mongoose in pocess but Bolted the dude, yet than a savage topdeck (SFM->BSK) saved Vojta and it spelled a doom for me. I conceded with him having 34 life, BSK, Jitte and some other powerful stuff.
g3: Ok, this time it was a complete opposite than g2. I started with Delver and flipped him with R/t. RiP was Snared, then yet another WLL showed up, which was promtply followed by Mother of runes, which was promptly followed by Needle. SFM's trigger I Stifled, then on my turn I once again Bolted the WLL and finished him with Rough that flushed away all his remaining creatures. Mongoose and Delver finished him and Vojta was quite annoyed which I do understand, as he lost to his bad luck than to anything else.
W, 1:0


R2, Martin (not Slosh), 5C_DRS
Slosh informed me what I stand against before the round started and he also told me to be positive about the matchup, as his namesake's deck has horrible manabase. With six removal main, I felt confident.
g1: I opened a hand with FoW and Waste, was there also a Stifle? Might be, as I felt I can't lose this one. I started with Mongoose, Forced his turn1 DRS. Lately we exchanged Wastelands. Martin was sitting on one mana, but then he drawn another land and tried QPM which I Dazed. GSZ I also Dazed. SCooze I Fowed. DRS I Forkedly Bolted. I won.
sb: 3x Submerge, 2x Needle, 2x Rough/Tumble; out Dazes and some mix of other counters, I think I kept 3 FoWs in. Although the plan is to choke his mana development, Daze does little on draw and I need space for all the removal.
g2: I started with Delver and he led with DRS which I Bolted. He Wasted my Trop, but I got another one, then I Wasted his Savannah and finally Wasted his Waste. On his seven life he played DRS out of Horizon Canopy, resolved. untap, upkeep, draw, tap Imbecile Abberation, Bolt head, gg.
Win, 2:0


R3, Aleš, D&T
g1:
18 20 Thalia
16 20
14 20
12 20
8 20 Mirran Crusader
I conceded
Basically this one was about him having Thalia and me having nothing. I Pondered into oblivion which is pretty hard when the spell costs two mana, while he put two more dudes into play (Needleguys naming Lavamancer).
sb: See above
Funny sidenote:
Some people commented that this is my horror matchup to which I respnded that it's not by far the worse. But then I thougt about it and admited that except for Dragon Stompy (an incosistent deck that sees no play) there's just Dredge that is similarly annyoing, but this deck is not only extinct since RiP, but it also suffers from "DazeWasteForcedrawdrawdrawdrawdiscardDazeconcede" syndrom. Been there, tried that, still selling my Dredge to Slosh.
g2: I Needled his Vial and then Roughed away Thalia nad SFM (BSK). Then we slowly built our manabase which in his case meant that he was accumulating Ports and lots of basics, while I struggled to not give away how I feel about his Wastelands. He exiled three Goyfs and made a board of SFM (Jitte), MoR and finally Mangara. Now I made an extreme brainfart and instead of playing the second Rough and Stifling MoR, I decided to use Stifle during his attack to either kill the SFM or force him to use MoR; he did the second, but then I mismanged the Rough and failed to win the game, as Aleš had all four Prots, cut me away from green with Wastes and in short completely outclassed and soundly defeated me.
L, 2:1


R4, Lukáš, Jund
So, after been defeated by his brother, Luke was my final opponent for that evening. Seen how he's on nine points, while there are several other guys who have the same six as I had, I decided to concede in Luke's favour. I imagined the situation when I kick him out of a top place (maybe even from the prizes at all), only to be the first one without prizes, and I was really sad of this picture. Also, Luke is a buddy of mine (ok, everybody in lgs is to some degree) so I couldn't bear the idea of the two of us standing in front of the cashdesk, both thrilled for our prospective collectible cardboard prizes... "and for the seventh and eighth place, we have this pretty Karoo and an amazing Incinerate. Lukáš chooses first." No, thanks.
We played for fun though, and lots of fun we had. Well, except that it wasn't distributed evenly amongst the target players and/or creatures.
g1: I'm like 95% sure Lukáš mulled to six. I Dazed his fetch->Badlands->DRS play. Next turn I Stifled his fetch leaving him on one mana; I also beat him with Mongoose in the meanwhile. He finally got another land and played Confidant. Next turn I played BS, Mongoose, Bolt (Bob) and Wasted his land. I Stifled his Waste and Pierced his LftL. On nine life Lukáš concedes staring at two threshed Gooses.
sb: 3x Submerge, 2x Rough, 2x Needle, maybe Grudge against Jitte; out: some mix of non-Stifle countermagic.
g2:
19 19 DRS
19 19 Bolt the DRS
19 19 Delver
19 17 Thoughtseize taking Stifle (keeping Snare and Submerge)
19 16 fetch, Bolt the Delver
19 14 Extraction (Delver)
19 14 Mongoose
19 12 FB in face (thresh), fetch Bayou, tap Mongoose
19 9 LftL (Snare)
19 8 fetch, Sylvan Library; tap Mongoose
19 5 Pernicious Deed (SPierce); tap Mongoose
19 2 Ponder, during it's resolution opponent conceded

Shame the starting fetchland, it'll be more stylish to finish on 20. A perfect game, indeed.
IL, 2:2

I wouldn't change a single one card in my list, except maybe for a Scavooze/LftL instead of Flusterstorm (or Blast?), as it's quite powerful in mirror. Not that I loked into any, but still.
Withh tight play and a bit of a good luck, D&T mu isn't unwinnable, though the odds are some 2:3 in their favor. I may consider some additional hate, after all, mirror ain't that important, as it¨s a coin flip pretty often. (Exagerrating, I know, but just a bit.) I did not face any combo, but with my sb I won't be intimidated.
And yes, I did not miss the gy hate, thanks for the tip!


After the tournament ended we've went to the pub with Slosh and ate some small evening dinner and got ourselves a lemonade. We've discussed Ebay-MKM-h2h-deals stuff a bit, but mainly we talked about the pimp topics. I once again came to a conclussion that all the pimp is overrated. Except for the petting time when I cuddle with my cards, I hardly ever acknowledge what kind of (un)pimp do I play. Also, except for the Jap. 4ED Bolts, which were commented on on two occasions as been very nice, ppl (again: including me) didn't take any care of what I play. With this in mind, and finally realizing that I really despise mixed languages, I decided to have a word with Slosh and listen to his advice on correct pimping process. (He's a great authority for me when it comes to all thing Magic, and I nigh always do as he tolds me, only to be dissapointed when I don't obey.) Slosh correctly detected the problem and then suggested two possible medications. Surprisingly, I was quite close with my intuitive slef-healing process, but it's always good to have a word with a specialist. In fact he came with two possible therapies to my malady:
1) To keep the deck as it is. As long as nobody cares, why should anybody care? Don't fix what isn't broken.
2) To go nigh-fully English, but to keep the nice asian stuff I have for years. Ironically these will be a playset of card in each color, cards that are symbolic for Thresh Can: the already mentioned Jap. 4ED Bolts, and then Chinese sets of Nimble Mongoose and Stifles. I don't have a heart to sell them after all those bolted BoPs/Bobs/DRS, fizzled Wastes, fetches, storm triggers and SFMs, and of course, after all the thousands of comabat damage dealt. Moreover, they are nice, while this can't be tsaid about the new-frame Chinese cards that use horrendous font, one that doesn't resemble handwriting at all, but is just a digicrap. (http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=http://magiccards.info/scans/cn/m12/73.jpg)

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff388/aleksandr4/rug_zps713ce885.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/aleksandr4/media/rug_zps713ce885.jpg.html)


BDP

[poxy14]

@beddeckspalyer: Good Job still! and these reports are very helpful to players who play this archetype. Thanks!

tomorrow's the tourney...
we have the same list, instead me playing 1izzet (supposed to be ripple) and 1 dismember...again im snareless..
i just want outright solutions to problems instead of having with me the counter i havent drawn i need at that moment..
lots of DRS/Dnt in my meta that's why im packing in 8 spot removals MD (4lightnings,2forked,1dismembr,1zzet)

on playtesting...
Reality Ripple is a good top deck especially midgame, as it can do a lot of things...
discussion wise it has lots of applications too..
but i conclude, it's nowhere near some of the great spells available still for our flex spots
namely f/ice, dismembers,chain lightnings or cantrips ...probes, scours..
if it cost less 1 mana, definitely a different story...or even when it costs 2 but with a draw, it'll be much better.
im not gonna play it tomorrow..

be posting back a report after the tourney.
GO RUG!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello poxy, I'm glad you find my reports helpful! :-)

Ok, so RR seems like it's no good enough. Nevermind, I'll try to not forget about the card in case I'll find a need for it in future.
I'm not sure if going Snareless is the right call, I remember having lots of troubles with the 4 SPierce build. Basically every opposing Goyf hurt me a lot, as I was unable to counter it and then any kind of removal was a 2for1, not talking about the fact that getting to double red (plus maybe other :1: to :2: mana to pay for the taxing counters) is not that easy in tempo mirrors where your first two duals have a life span of an infatryman crossing the no man's land on hot summer afternoon of 1916.

[Barbed Blightning]

With tight play and a bit of a good luck, D&T mu isn't unwinnable, though the odds are some 2:3 in their favor. I may consider some additional hate, after all, mirror ain't that important, as it¨s a coin flip pretty often. (Exagerrating, I know, but just a bit.) I did not face any combo, but with my sb I won't be intimidated.
And yes, I did not miss the gy hate, thanks for the tip!

Glad to help.

D&T is why I run 2 sulfur elemental. Snare is also great vs them and a third rough can also help the MU greatly.

I'm fooling around with a blue blast in my SB. Honestly, flusterstorm has been underwhelming for me

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Blue Blast? But why? Only things that come to my mind are Bolt, Pyroclasm, Lackey and Burning Wish.

[Tombstalker]

Sneak attack and blood moon?

Edit- oh wait duh its for forked bolt!
(forgot to add im not serious.. got interrupted by freshly made cookies)

[Barbed Blightning]

It also kills anything in burn, rite of flame, past in flames, BBE and random stuff like hunt master of the fells. I might just change it back to REB though; I just wanted to find a spot for my Korean FBB

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sneak attack and blood moon?

Edit- oh wait duh its for forked bolt!
(forgot to add im not serious.. got interrupted by freshly made cookies)

Thanks! How could I forget about Moon, esp. after I mentioned it in the "Good old-framed cards" thread! :eek:

[Blaze22]

Hey guys, today after some playtesting a question suddenly came to my mind: Why isn't preordain played in this deck? It is strictly worse than ponder and brainstorm in rug for sure, but isn't it still worth a couple of slots? I mean... it's still one of the best cantrips around, right? we must give it some credit: it raises the number of keepable hands, it can dig better than probe/scour if we're looking for a particular kind of card and it can pull ourself out of a brainstorm-lock just as much as a thought scour would do...

Any thoughts? :smile:

[Dzra]

Hey guys, today after some playtesting a question suddenly came to my mind: Why isn't preordain played in this deck? It is strictly worse than ponder and brainstorm in rug for sure, but isn't it still worth a couple of slots? I mean... it's still one of the best cantrips around, right? we must give it some credit: it raises the number of keepable hands, it can dig better than probe/scour if we're looking for a particular kind of card and it can pull ourself out of a brainstorm-lock just as much as a thought scour would do...

Any thoughts? :smile:

I would almost 100% play Preordain over Gitaxian Probe, but I'm not certain that more business isn't just better.

[cheerios]

Probe being is free is a huge factor.

[Barbed Blightning]

I personally prefer business over preordain, but if I had a hierarchy of tertiary cantrips, it'd be in this order:

Probe (Free, gives you info, and has small utility)
Thought Scour (acceleration for thresh, better at getting rid of garbage, can make a grudge cast able with two trops)
Preordain (does nothing new or better than brainstorm or ponder)?

[Blaze22]

I personally prefer business over preordain, but if I had a hierarchy of tertiary cantrips, it'd be in this order:

Probe (Free, gives you info, and has small utility)
Thought Scour (acceleration for thresh, better at getting rid of garbage, can make a grudge cast able with two trops)
Preordain (does nothing new or better than brainstorm or ponder)?

I hate probe, it makes you vulnerable to opposing topdecks and drawing multiples is awwwwful, I'll never play that card. I think it's wise to play that only if you're not familiar with the format. Otherwise, the bare informations it provides are not worth playing a 57/58 cards deck.
Personally I used to be a big fan of thought scour, I played 2 MD for a long time. It does amazing things, has synergies with lots of cards:

-mongoose
-brainstorm
-ponder
-delver
-submerge
-ancient grudge
- vs miracles/top/E. tutor
and even with compost and sylvan library if you play them!

but the fact is that scour alone is bad. 50% of the times I found myself forced to cast it blindly, just for the "draw 1" part and it feels so bad...
Preordain on the other hand is never excellent, but it's always mediocre at least. That's why I was suggesting to test it, we need our cards to be reliable in every spot!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Although I do understand the power of Thought Scour + Submerge, isn't the first card the first card to sb out?

[Lemnear]

I hate probe, it makes you vulnerable to opposing topdecks and drawing multiples is awwwwful, I'll never play that card. I think it's wise to play that only if you're not familiar with the format. Otherwise, the bare informations it provides are not worth playing a 57/58 cards deck.
Personally I used to be a big fan of thought scour, I played 2 MD for a long time.

In other words: you have no clue how to play with Probe or grasp it's power of free thinning your deck, feeding you Goose and Goyf for free while giving you information about how to play your hands in the face of now known upcoming threads.

The bolded sentence demonstrates that YOU are not familiar with the format or you would understand why it's a staple in a wide range of combo decks

[Blaze22]

Although I do understand the power of Thought Scour + Submerge, isn't the first card the first card to sb out?

I don't know... Personally I've never sided thought scour out, I like to put it into the "untouchable" category, along with delvers and the other cantrips, because it's still a cantrip! it can help finding our real sb cards and other stuff... it's never a dead card post board and usually there are worse cards to take out after sb, i.e. fow vs attrition matchups, burn spells vs combo etc.

[Barbed Blightning]

Preordain on the other hand is never excellent, but it's always mediocre at least. That's why I was suggesting to test it, we need our cards to be reliable in every spot!

Thing is, if you go with the 2-2-2 split (snare, pierce, forked bolt/tarfire/more burn) you'll have that reliability. Sure, you'll run into matchups where one or the other is bad (snare vs sneak, pierce vs goblins, forked bolt vs combo) but there are plenty of matches where all three are live (jund, shardless, blade).

Preordain just doesn't dig deep enough or have some synergystic benefit like probe and scour do. And, though I am not a fan of probe in this deck, I agree with Lemnear that the card is nowhere near "awful."

[Blaze22]

Ok, so yesterday I finished 2nd place in a local 32 players tournament with 5 rounds, this is my list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Tarfire
2 Thought Scour
1 Sylvan Library

1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn


SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Compost

I'll try to write a little report, please forgive my english if I make some mistakes, it's not my native language ;)

ROUND 1 vs Goblins:
G1: he plays 3 lackeys in the first 3 turns but I have double burn and then I play a couple of goyfs that quickly became a pair of "the abyss" for him, taking the game.
G2: I start aggressive with double delver and he could not find answers for them, instead he starts flooding the board with creatures but a timely rough is game.

The matchup felt really easy overall, he just could not connect with anything... goyf is huge here, make some math to stay away from incinerator range and it should be ok

SB plan:
-4 daze
-2 pierce
+2 rough
+2 ancient grudge
+2 sulfur elemental

1-0

ROUND 2 vs combo elves:
G1: very close game where I manage to put him on 3 life with active delver, but he eventually topdecks a behemot and with his 9 mana available I stare at the daze in my hand and cry... he swings for like 30 dmg
G2: I have answers to everything he plays, 2 bolts for 2 shaman, waste for bayou and cradle, later rough made a 3 for 1 and I was able to close the game with double goyf
G3: Very close game, I pierce his natural order turn 2, then I start putting pressure with delver/tarmo and he plays just a bunch of 1/1 that could not do anything. I pierce his zenith and natural order, then on his final turn available he has 2 cards in hand and a bunch of creatures down (one symbiote) he tries to resolve a glimpse of nature, I have a single active fow in hand and after a long thinking I decide to let it resolve, then he shows the bluff, because his other card was a natural order which gets countered :) gg

I don't like playing vs elves, it makes me really uncomfortable, they have some perfect draws that can win even through a rough and 2 bolts and they always seem so close to win in every spot... definitely not our best matchup

SB plan:
-4 mongoose
-4 stifle
-1 daze
+3 submerge
+1 pierce
+1 flusterstorm
+2 rough
+2 sulfur elemental

2-0

ROUND 3 vs jund:
G1: he's mana screwed, only able to play a thoughtseize and a confidant through the entire game...
G2: I keep a one lander with delver and nuts, but I could never find the second land even after 4 draw steps, a ponder/shuffled, a brainstorm and a scour to clean the garbage on the top... nice games!
G3: this game was nice and really close, we exchanged cards till a point where I no one had but lands in play, he was at 6 life though and I had already a bolt in hand. Topdeck war went as follows: i started with 4 lands and he probably did the same, then he peeled a goyf off the top, i drew a mongoose, he drew another goyf, I drew another mongoose, he drew silvan library, I drew third mongoose! then he drew confidant, played it and passed. with 2 goyf and conf on his side and 3 mongoose on my side i decided to go for it, cast rough to kill confidant, swing with the 3 nimble monsters to kick him in bolt range and close the game. yeah

usually jund is pretty easy for me, they can't really do much, their mana curve is too excessive to do anything and our stifles and gooses are golden.

SB plan:
-4 fow
-4 daze
+2 rough
+2 comopost (i never drew it though, but other times I did and it's a great great card)
+3 submerge
+1 pierce

3-0

ROUND 4 vs reanimator:
G1: he manages to reanimate a tidesprout tyrant on turn 2 through my daze and fow... I thoght it was game, but unexpectedly I could establish some kind of race with a 5/6 goyf and with the help of the reanimate life loss I put him on the ropes quickly. a stifle on a tyrant's bounce is enough to bring it home.
G2: I keep a hand full of disruption and a brainstorm but without threats, he goes for the conservative play, waiting for a full grip of counters before going off. that allows me to take my time to find a threat in the form of a delver and I start beating him down. he then tries to exhume an iona but i win the huge counter war, the next turn he tries another exhume which gets countered again by my last fow, leaving both with empty hands. from that, he was 3 topdecks away from the doom, he draws nothing relevant and neither I did, but it didn't matter.

reanimator is probably the worst of rug's combo matchups. it's so fast and has dazes and fows... it's really hard to stop them if they have the combo in the first 2 turns, but hey... it is possible so, never give up!

SB plan:
-4 mongoose
-2 bolts
+1 flusterstorm
+1 pierce
+1 reb
+1 pyroblast
+2 sulfur elemental

4-0

ROUND 5 vs... enchantress!!! :eek:
G1: I have the best hand of the entire day, and even though I lost the roll, i was able to kill him on turn 4 with active force in hand. t1 delver. t2 flip, play another delver waste him. t3 flip, swing, eot bolt. t4 swing + tarfire = 20 dmg
G2: I keep a mediocre hand that wasn't probably enough because he started really strong with wild growth t1, enchantress t2 which I answered with a rough, BLOOD MOON on t3 that gets dazed thank god... t4 presence that resolved and from there everyting went wrong... i had successfully set a 3 turn clock with delver and a 5/6 tarmogoyf but then a wild rest in peace appeared and that put him on a 6 turn clock... too many. furthermore he played an elephant grass that tightened my mana quite a bit, and because of that i could not play a single spell to help than that lone aberration... I eventually brought him down to 1 life but hey, that's not enough! helm of obedience came down and I was staring at my hand of fow, 2 sulfur elemental, sylvan library, goyf before conceding... bricks bricks bricks... damnit
G3: ...ok, here comes the story of the worst 15 minutes of my day. It's the final game of the final match. I start thinking: "I am favored in this matchup, i'm on the play, odds are with me, don't fuck up!!!" guess what... I fucked up so hard. I open with delver, he responds with fetch for basic plains and passes. I see a tropical with my delver trigger but a ponder allows me to set up my next turn pretty nicely. he goes turn 2 taiga + enchantress, "ok". it's my turn now, everything is going as expected. I flip my delver revealing a bolt, then fetch before the draw step to improve my draw. it is a pierce, not bad. I attack with the insectile aberration starting my race, then quickly tap 2 to cast rough killing the shrouded 0/1, then quickly drop wasteland on the taiga and pass. I was so exalted after that play that not even a noble hierarch could be as much. My opponent's turn, he goes forest into another enchantress, "ok". "oh wait..." I tilted. My blood freezes, I had force in my hand, but I already said ok, there were like 10 people spectating the game, i could not go back. well, after that i think I don't need to explain how i lost 4 turns later beaten by rip+helm again, with an overwhelmnig card advantage for him.

SB plan:
-2 mongoose
-2 bolt
-1 tarfire
+2 rough
+1 spell pierce
+2 sulfur elemental

4-1 2nd place

The list worked pretty well, thought scour proved itself as a great addition to our cantrips, I did lots of tricks with it that weren't mentioned in the report, like setting sorcery and creature on the top with brainstorm and then give +2+2 to goyf instant speed! Tarfire also did a great job, keeping my hungry goyfs always fat. S. library didn't do great last night, it was kind of a brick most of the times, but it usually is not... I think i'll give it a second chance I guess. 'till the next time, keep your delvers swinging! ;)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Nice report and congrats on your finish! I'd love to play 5-rounders, though they are a bit longer, as the four rounds are base, while anything with 6+ rounds takes basically whole day and this ain't what I want from my life.

I'm pretty surprised that you sb the Sulfur Elementals sooo often. I do understand the merits of been able to play at least bad threat instead of bad answer, and e.g. in your Gobos mu it's still better then SPierce, though the latter one may hit Vial or Relic/RiP.

Speaking of SulfEle: if you sb the card just to have a flash attacker, like in case of your Reanimator match, you can just as well play Vendilion Clique, a creature that not only flies over the Elves, but also messes the opponent's hand.

I like Compost and as I already wrote, I'd love to find place fro it, alas, there are other, less conditional cards. Imho Needle is at least on par with Compost, as it may stop DRS/Lili which are the main black threats, while been good against anything from Jitte to w/e.

Sylvan Library... Well, I'd love to play this card, esp. when I got nice Jap. 4ED BB, but guess what: I never find a place for it. See above for my reasoning on a "finite number of cantrips and filter spells that a particular deck may play".

I still can't fall in love with Scour, but if it works for you... I'm also not really sure if one of Tarifre is good, esp. when you sorceries' count is low (and you maylack the split dmg of FB), otoh, there won't be tribals before sorceries in any gy, so mqaybe it's fine to rely on the opponent (and your set of Ponders).

Good job!

[Vandalize]

Is Tarfire better than Forked Bolt (for those who tested both)? The split factor in Forked Bolt seems more appealing to me than growing Tarmogoyf.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Is Tarfire better than Forked Bolt (for those who tested both)? The split factor in Forked Bolt seems more appealing to me than growing Tarmogoyf.
I never tested it, so it's just a consideration, but more than the fact that FB might be split, I'd fear growing the opposing Goyfs with Tarfire. Other than that, Tarfire seems fine, becasue it (together with possible T Scour) may improve our tempo by as far as two (?) turns. After all, it hardly matters what exactly killed DRS as long as the road is free.

[Barbed Blightning]

Thing about sulfur elemental is that it isn't just a flash dude; it's weenie hate, something we need. Clique is combo hate primarily, something we already have. So I wouldn't say the two are interchangeable.

And Tarfire? I'd rather not risk the backfiring scenario with opposing goyfs. Plus forking damage is very relevant now.

[SansSerif]

@ Blaze22

Congratulations on your finish, and I
Appreciate the time you took to write a tournament report.

I did want to ask about your SB strategy with Sulfur Elemental. I am especially curious about you siding it in against reanimator, enchantress and elves. I'm guessing you did this because it cannot countered and to establish a quicker clock on your opponent. Do I have that right?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thing about sulfur elemental is that it isn't just a flash dude; it's weenie hate, something we need. Clique is combo hate primarily, something we already have. So I wouldn't say the two are interchangeable.

And Tarfire? I'd rather not risk the backfiring scenario with opposing goyfs. Plus forking damage is very relevant now.

There's a trouble with Elemental that it's a good hatebear against white weenies, while against other creature decks it's not that stellar; after all, he has p/t of 3/2, so it dies pretty easy. Clique, while dying to the very same creatures like elemental does, may fly over the ground stalemates while been similarly good during a blocking duty (ok, except for Lackey, etc. but this should be obvious). The added bonus of preventing BSkull to resolve and/or interrupting a combo chain is pretty powerful.
To put it more clearly: if you sb flash dudes so often, and if you got them not only for D&T mu, but also for other uses, you may consider adding/switching one Clique into your sb, as it's much better creature against Reanimator/ANT/Tress then Elemental. If your meta is infested with small white dudes, I wouldn't cut the Elemental down to one, but seen how you played 5 non-white matchups (with three of them been ground stalls and the remaining two been combo+Tress), there's hardly any reason to not play Clique. (Esp. against Elves, where you really need to fly and prevent NO; not so much against Goblins, where flying is huge, but toughness of 1 isnt...)

@ Tarfire discussion: Again, I never tried it, but the fact that I'm gathering courage to play the card for a few years must mean something... :smile:

[Blaze22]

Answering your questions about my card choices:

Sulfur elemental: I love this card, I side it in a lot usually because there are some matchups where mongoose is really bad (i.e vs fast decks and combo where it's too slow), so you want to side them out without lowering the threat count too much. Other than that, elemental wrecks white weenie and GW matchup so hard! I side them also vs goblins because you need to increase the number of creatures as much as possible, plus it can ambush their 1/1s or trade with an important warchief or piledriver. I know it's not the best sb card vs the ignorant green monsters, but as you said it's better than pierce for sure ;)
it's also very good vs combo because of its ability to enter eot leaving you mana open 100% of the time! oh and it's also great vs counterbalance... it can really mess up with the opponent's plan, surprise kill jace and it sneaks easily through the pesky enchantment, oh come on... the elemental is a freaking bomb!! :D

about the clique comparison... yeah vendilion sisters work better vs combo for sure, but our slots in sideboard are really tight, elemental provides more versatility being useful also in other matchups... I just like it more, but I could see him replaced with clique in a really unfair meta. probably it would have been better in my 5 pairings last night, but while walking throug the tables I saw lots of thalias and mother of runes around in GW decks, and a couple of WW as well so... I'll stick with the red dude for now ;)

Tarfire: I can proudly say I have tested every kind of secondary burn spell the deck can handle. I tired the classic forked bolt and chain lightning, but I also gave a shot to dismember, fire//ice, seal of fire and sudden shock (yeah, I did it, sudden shock dudes) and obviously tarfire. I have to say one thing first: instant speed is the nuts. I'd prefer even a 2 mana instant burn spell rather than a 1 mana sorcery. Tarfire seemed the best among the instants for me, given the low cost and the possibility to trick the opponent in different ways, expecially when coupled with thought scour (this is a fact, it happens more often than you could think!) Yeah, it grows opponent's goyf too but let's think about it: the only answers we have against a resolved goyf are a goyf of our own or a submerge, and in both cases the +1+1 is irrelevant so... let's tarfire that shaman everyone! :D

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Blaze22, thanks for your input.

The only thing I wanted to tell when comparing Elemental and Clique is that they are pretty similar in some way, though very distinct otherwise. While Elemental is easier to sneak through the counterwall (considering even C-Balance), Clique may send the annoying enchantment to the bottom, thus saving your future plays. Against hordes (namely non-white), Clique has the ability to fly over them, while Elemental, with it's double toughness and less constricting* mana cost, is a bit more versatile, mainly during blocks. It's quite obvious that Elemental's power against D&T is outstanding compared to Clique, but she may still fight the BSkull, which one Elemental hardly ever touches, as long as the SFM's toughness won't be errataed to 1. Karakas aside, I want two Elementals and one Clique against white decks every day.

*) It'll be interesting to analyze this aspect of the two cards. Yes, the one red in dude's manacost is a bit less prohibitive then that of Clique, and you may play it for Volcanic and two irrelevant lands. Otoh, all our "colored" lands produce blue, so it isn't impossible to have double blue available most of the time, and Clique might be played even in those unfortunate times when you're stuck on two Trops for whatever the reason.

In your place (depending on how many combo/control decks you've met or you expect), I'd find a place for one Clique, as it's a versatile, aggressive, evading creature with little to no drawback. (Yep, the 1UU cost can be hindrance and her legendary status is a liability, of course.) I wouldn't cut a single Elemental, that's sure.
Also, what' your opinion on Needle? I'm quite satisfied with it, though it doesn't make threshold and can be destroyed. But the mere fact that it stops several DRS/Lili/Mazes at once is pretty powerful.

Tarfire... I concede. :smile:
Fact is that as long as we don't have an answer for opposing Goyfs, it doesn't really matter how big are they. (Except when the +1/+1 that TF gives them may mean one less turn to dig out of danger.) And yes, Submerge doesn't really ask how big their Goyf is, it just removes them.

I need to force myself to try your build, but there are some one-ofs and cards I dislike (Im looking at you Thought Scour!) so for now I'll stick to my build. :laugh:

[Blaze22]

Hello Blaze22, thanks for your input.


Hey, thanks to you for the opportunity to talk about the deck and improve our strategies! ;)

I must say, I used to be a big fan of clique, I played it in every deck with blue really, I also played a couple in the maindeck of my merfolk (and it was amazing, no joke). And a while ago I tested it as a 1-of maindeck in rug! wasn't that good though... but yeah it's a great card, I could definitely try to add one in sb for testing, in addition to the elementals.
About its mana cost... I remember that sometime ago I was playing vs D&T, he wasted all of my green sources and I was left with a lone volcanic (getting always tapped in my upkeep by port) + 2 wastes. I eventually managed to play the elemental instant speed in my upkeep and win the game later, yeah it has been a great time :D Other than that, I can't remember any other cases where I could cast the red but not the blue flashy creature, so I don't think it matters a lot.



I need to force myself to try your build, but there are some one-ofs and cards I dislike (Im looking at you Thought Scour!) so for now I'll stick to my build. :laugh:
I have a lot to say about this. I think there is no "strictly better deck", even in the exact same meta. Card choices shoud be made, in the first place, according to how we really like to play. The efficiency of rug depends mostly on the player's skill and choices during the actual game, and the skill also depends on how much we are familiar with the deck interactions. i.e If a player is really aggressive, I can see him playing a version with 7 burn spells and less counters, and he'll probably do better than he would do with a more blue intensive version. I personally like the 1-of's, because I like having more options even with a little less consistency, so I'm playing them! I also like to do some tricks during the game, so thought scour and tarfire are the right cards for me :smile: On the top of that, you should really try them at least once, they worked so well in the last 2 weeks of playtesting that they're worth a try.

As a general rule though, I suggest everyone to use the cards that you're more comfortable to play with, because there's no card better than a correct decision. :cool:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Blaze22, I agree with everything you wrote!
I think I'll give a chance to the two cards. If only the Thought Scour illustration wasn't so stupid and fugly.

[Dzra]

I have a lot to say about this. I think there is no "strictly better deck", even in the exact same meta.

Dirty relativist. :cool:

I can see a case for Tarfire, especially if there aren't many opposing Goyfs in your meta. With all the Pyromancers running about though, Forked Bolt just feels like a safer choice (plus there's always the dream of swinging in with your two Goyfs, having their two Goyfs block, then post-combat Forked Bolting for the supreme taco). I do like Clique a lot though (usually from the SB).

[Blaze22]

If only the Thought Scour illustration wasn't so stupid and fugly.

haha it's true, that image is so unsettling :D it doesn't even make any sense! I mean, Traumatize has a softer image than that bloody crap, and it destroys half of your brain in one shot...

Oh God, talking about the sulfur elemental vs clique I completely forgot about a couple of games I did vs painted stone a while ago, where I was able to win with a resolved blood moon on the battlefield by beating with him!!! That little 3/2 never stops to amaze me... :wink:

[Mr. Crane]

Dirty relativist. :cool:

I can see a case for Tarfire, especially if there aren't many opposing Goyfs in your meta. With all the Pyromancers running about though, Forked Bolt just feels like a safer choice (plus there's always the dream of swinging in with your two Goyfs, having their two Goyfs block, then post-combat Forked Bolting for the supreme taco). I do like Clique a lot though (usually from the SB).

In this example, 2xblock one goyf and take damage, 2x1 against you....

[Barbed Blightning]

In this example, 2xblock one goyf and take damage, 2x1 against you....

Well, unless they are at a near-lethal life total

[ShiftyKapree]

What is your guys thought on Git Probe? I don't like the idea of bolting myself turn 1 but I also can see the benefits from seeing an opponents opening hand.

[Barbed Blightning]

What is your guys thought on Git Probe? I don't like the idea of bolting myself turn 1 but I also can see the benefits from seeing an opponents opening hand.

There has been discussion of the card for a while now, mostly bouncing between "it gives you info, makes your plays easier/more powerful, counts towards threshold" and "is terrible in multiples, is an awful topdeck, isn't necessary if you can identify your opponent correctly and you proper plays/role, and it (probe) cuts business like pierce, snare or non-lightning bolt removal."

It's your choice and, honestly, it doesn't even matter all that much. The other 54 cards in this deck are already locked in an will give you peak performance. Although, I can never see myself brainstorming to dig for a probe unless I needed thresh desperately.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

haha it's true, that image is so unsettling :D it doesn't even make any sense! I mean, Traumatize has a softer image than that bloody crap, and it destroys half of your brain in one shot...
So. True.




Oh God, talking about the sulfur elemental vs clique I completely forgot about a couple of games I did vs painted stone a while ago, where I was able to win with a resolved blood moon on the battlefield by beating with him!!! That little 3/2 never stops to amaze me... :wink:
I played a 4rounder in our LGS today and lost to ANT although I sided Clique. (Not that I seen it.) And I also lost to WBG deck as my Sulfur Elemental did not show up. I think I'll cut Clique now and add second Elemental.
Also, a friend of mine play Moon in ANT board. Says a lot about Clique vs. Elemental, doesn't it?

_________________________________

Dear moderators! I know that this is a DTB thread and as such, it has some standards, but I'd still wish to make an experiment.
Instead of writing a long, tedious reprot, I'd just hare my in-game notes. I think that everybody will understand them and in case this catches up, it may save a lot of future time (both mine and yours) and as a cherry on top, you won't be forced to read my "witty" Engrish essays...

Todays report:

The list:

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique


R1, Tom, Jund
Tom returned to tournament Magic after a short while, he even had some troubles with registration, as the last tournament he played in was a preview of some bit older edition... Weatherlight? Is it even a real edition?

Me Tom
20 19 fetch (Stifle!)
21 18 Grove, DRS
20 18 Mong, FB->DRS
19 17 Confi
19 17 FB->Confi
20 17 Goyf (Daze!)
21 14 Goyf (Daze!)
21 11 Waste->Trop (Stifle!)
21 8 Confi; Thoughtseize (Bolt!->Confi), taking SPierce
21 6 tap Mongoose, Bolt to head

sb: out 3-4 FoWs and 4 Dazes, in Roughs, Needles, Submerges and Clique (?)

Me Tom
20 20 DRS
19 20 Hymn (SPierce!)
18 20 my Goyf; Waste->Trop
18 20 DRS
16 20 Rough (DRS!->BS)
15 17 Waste->Trop
14 14 my Goyf
14 6 Delver; BB Elf->Thoughtseize, Tom conceded

Win. 1:0

Does it make any sense? If not, I may write the real report. But not tonight...
__________________________________

Edit:

Ok, seen how you're lost in the mess, I need to write a real report... :smile:

4 rounds in LGS, deck of choice Canadian Threshold.

R1, Tom, Jund
g1: I Stifled his fetch and on his next turn, Tom played DRS of Grove. I killed the shaman with Forked Bolt and played Mongoose. Tom summoned Dark Confidant, but I got another FB ready. He then played two Goyfs increasing my life total a bit with Grove, but as he was stuck on two lands and my hand was insane, I countered both Goyfs with Daze. He at least tried to Waste my Trop, but I Stifled it. I pressed with Mongoose, he put another DC into play and cast Thoughtseize. I Bolted DC in resp. and let the TS resolve, shocking Tom in process. Tap Mongoose, Bolt to head, onwards to game 2.
sb: sb: out 3-4 FoWs and 4 Dazes, in Roughs, Needles, Submerges and Clique (?)
Yep, pretty controllish approach. I need to stop DRS to apply my manadenial plan, also, Liliana is really bad, so the Needles. Roguh is generally good, as is Submerge. I keep one FoW as a safety button against w/e like Choke, Lili, Deed.
g2: Tom got DRS, on his next turn he played Hymn which I SPierced. Having Rough in hand, I decided to play Goyf to lure some more guys into play, and the second DRS showed up. I flushed them with Rough, Tom at least ate Brainstorm in response putting me to 16. Next turn he destroyed my Trop, but I still got my Goyf; it was followed by another one and then by Delver. Tom played Bloodbraid Elf and cascaded into Thoughtseize. i learned him he may send it to the bottom and save two life points, but no matter what, this was his swan song.
Win, 1:0


R2, Mat, ANT
I got pretty negative score with Mat, I'm not sure if I ever defeated him. To make it even more sad: he plays the deck for a while, while I played it for an eternity.
g1: I kept a mediocre hand, while he started with the infamous Probe plus Therapy. At least I had Brainstorm. Lately he found CRit with IT. I Bolted him eot, then on my turn I finally got Mongoose. Soemone played Brainstorm and Ponder. On his six life Tom played Phyrexian Gitaxian Probe seeing Daze, BS, FoW, Mong, Snare. He fetched and in resp. I BSed drawing L. Bolt and ending the game on spot.
sb: out some removal and A Mongoose or two, in Blasts, FLusterstorms, Roughs and Cilque, maybe even Elemental.
g2: Pretty fast game. I had amazing hand, but the GP, Dur, CT sequence ripped it apart. It wasn't too interesting after Preordain, CRit, LED, LED, AdN->DRit*3, CT, ToA
g3: Opening the hand with FoW and double BS, I expected to win. First Dur took BS, second Dur forced me to play the remaining BS; after that Mat took Fow. I was annoying him with Mongoose, but he played IT, pass. Expecting a trap, I let it resolve, he found another IT. I eot Bolted him and forced through the lat attack, lowering his life total to two. On his last turn Mat tried DRit that I Dazed, which he easily payed for having four or so lands. CT took my Snare and then I ceased to care.
Loss, 1:1
Note: I won't be siding the Roughs. Although I hat to lose to Gobos while knowing I got a perfect weapon against them, it has little to no meaning. As RUG basically starts at eighteen life and has fast enough clock to make the EtW plan dangerous after turn3+, they always kill me with ToA, not to mention i need to find the Rough post-EtW, as their Therapies get rid of the one I may held.


R3, Mira, Burn
Wow, a Lava Spike matchup! Who would not love some high quality Magic?
g1: He led with Grim which I forkedly bolted. Marauders were Fowed, Guide resolved. I can't tell much abotu the match. Mongoose held the Guide, Delver flied over it, then on his six life I tapped both my creatures. Delver died to Bolt, Guide heroically stood in front of Mongoose. Clever guy, he knew I got Bolt. No matter what, he did not topdekc anythng so I won with my hit points reduced to four by some of his nameless spells I was lazy to write down.
sb: Needle, Flusterstorms, Roughs, maybe some flash dude, out one FoW, one Delver, one Stifle and some other things IDK now, maybe one Ponder?
g2: Kingdom for a Hydroblast! I thought of double Needle and maybe I even took it, I can't tell now. After all it's good against both Lavamancer and Relic.
Mira plyed Grim and then suspend-played Rift Bolt, never running into Daze or anything. Then finally i was given a chance to Flus his Chain Lightning, the card did surprise him. I Pierced PoP, then I deliberately overextended into sweeper (he had few cards) and yes, my Mong and 2x Delver were hit by Flamebreak. I got Goyf out and then another one, then in resp. to 2nd PoP I fetched (voluntarily finding nothing which surprised my opponent) and Waste my Trop. I won on six life, sole Volc and double Goyf.
Win, 2:1


R4, Luke, WBG, highlight of the evening
I hadn't played with Lukáš for months, so I was bit nervous what should I expect.
g1: I mulled to five (M7: Volc, FoW, green monster and some non-cantrip stuff; M6: double Waste hand) keeping this lovely hand: Delver, fetch, fetch, dual, Waste. W/e, I won't go down to four.
Lukáš played IoK taking Delver, then his turn2 Sculler took the Mongoose I kept from Ponder. I conceded after turn3 Jitte.
sb: out counterspells, in creature and artifact removal. I should have played the g1 a bit longer, I'd knew about SDT and I'd took Needle.
g2: I Stifled his fetch, then I played Mongoose. His DRS was Bolted, then I played BS finding Stifle whenhe fetched again. Lukáš cocneded on four life, never seen any other land.
g3: Amazing game, Lukáš got Ling. Souls and it was enough. I was unable to find the Elemental, Delver was StPed once it flipped, even Batterskull showed up. I lost in a prety fast fashion without ever dealing one point of damage. At least I bolted DRS to increae my bolted DRS score, but well...
Loss, 2:2


OK, could have been worse. At least we've had some fun and we've chatted with Jakub (a buddy that also plays Thresh) and Slosh (the one you know) and we've had nice general discussion not directly related to the Legacy metagame.

I'l cut Clique and add Elemental, i also try to keep my sideboarding more reasonable.

Pros:
Other Luke willing to buy my USea.
Slosh deciding to not purchase a horrible, horrible deck. ("Man, I looked throguh it and I wanted to barf."
Cons:
The result.
Slosh not willing to improve my account by purchasing a horrible, horrible deck.


Cheers!
BDP

[MethadronGer]

First of all, I play Canadian since two months, so maybe I'm not the best player overall :-) I can't decide what I'll play. Everybody in Germany says you've to play Dismember to stop Goofy, Knight and Stalker. I tried it in four tournaments and it never had done it's job. So how necessary is this card? Is it worth to cut a Daze for playing it?
Next question, I play five burn spells tried Tarfire but I think I'll change it back to fire//Ice cause yesterday Tarfire pushed the op Goofy more than mine.
Last question my Sideboard ist like this:
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Rough / Tumble

I don't know what I like to play in the last slot. Yesterday I tried a second Dismember, I never needed. So I can't decide between Library and Life from the loam. I think library is much better in combo mus?
Thanks for helping me

[loop]

I've been playing 2 Cursed Totems in my sb for some time and have really been loving them. It's quite narrow but really effective against D&T, Maverick and Elves, which are not easy match ups.

Has anyone else tried it?

[Sasan]

First of all, I play Canadian since two months, so maybe I'm not the best player overall :-) I can't decide what I'll play. Everybody in Germany says you've to play Dismember to stop Goofy, Knight and Stalker. I tried it in four tournaments and it never had done it's job. So how necessary is this card? Is it worth to cut a Daze for playing it?
Next question, I play five burn spells tried Tarfire but I think I'll change it back to fire//Ice cause yesterday Tarfire pushed the op Goofy more than mine.
Last question my Sideboard ist like this:
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Rough / Tumble

I don't know what I like to play in the last slot. Yesterday I tried a second Dismember, I never needed. So I can't decide between Library and Life from the loam. I think library is much better in combo mus?
Thanks for helping me

definitely Loam should be your 15th card Knut. It is so strong now all people play with greedy mana bases. Cutting a Daze is crucial and not recommended. Cutting a Force and moving it to the SB is an ok move in a midrange/creature based meta. Your question what removal spell is the best is a tough one: Besides the four bolts there are no conventions. Many play Forked Bolt or Dismember, some love Tarfires. I adore Izzet Charm. My advice: If you have a good amount of Snares MD you do not need the anti Goyf card Dismember that much. And if you end wishing just more Bolts play Chain Lightning. It is the most flexible removal spell as dealing 3 damage to the face is so often game ending.

[Barbed Blightning]

I've been playing 2 Cursed Totems in my sb for some time and have really been loving them. It's quite narrow but really effective against D&T, Maverick and Elves, which are not easy match ups.

Has anyone else tried it?

Not as of yet; I am, however, running 2 pithing needle to similar effect. Has totem's 2 cmc ever been a problem?

[BKclassic]

I got 3rd @ approximately 40 person Die Hard Games GPT yesterday. Here is the list and a quick report:

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire

4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Sulfur Elemetal

Round 1: Death and Taxes
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and am easily able to dispatch the few threats he presents.
Game 2: I mull to 5 but am able to get back in the game when I catch a MoM and Thalia with Rough.
1-0

Round 2: TES
Game 1: I have to burn my only FoW on Silence and he is able to go off next turn.
Game 2: I have an early threat backed up by counter magic.
Game 3: I keep Mongoose, Ponder, Brainstorm 4 land hand and lose when cast Probe into Therapy on Brainstorm on his turn 1. TES often has to keep slower hands with mana sources and cantrips against us and it just feels so bad to mull hands with cantrips and fetchlands, but this was an obvious mulligan in retrospect.
1-1

Round 3: TPS
Game 1: He has discard spells to destroy my hand and the cantrips to set up a Past in Flames win.
Game 2: I land an early threat. My opponent makes me discard my FoW. He goes for a straight up Tendrils and I am able to Brainstorm up a Stifle.
Game 3: My opponent doesn't draw any discard and has to go off hoping I am on the Spell Pierce and not FoW plan since all he has is mana souces. He gets a lot of mana and hard casts a Tendrils for 14, but I have the FoW for the last card in his hand, Infernal Tutor.
2-1

Round 4: Miracles
Game 1: I grind him down to 1 while he has Rest in Peace and Helm of Awakening out. If I can just draw a Stifle (to hold of Helm for a turn so a Mongoose can swing in again) or Bolt I would of have won but I drew a Goyf instead.
Game 2: I don't remember too much, I probably attacked with cheap creatures and was able to limit his resources.
Game 3: We go to time because U/W Control always goes to time.
2-1-1

Round 5: TES
Game 1: I have a turn one Delver and he plays Gemstone Mine, Brainstorm which I Daze. I then Spell Pierce his follow up Ponder. Gemstone Mine is his only mana source so I waste that and it's an easy win from there.
Game 2: He goes off early hoping I am on the Spell Pierce plan but I have multiple FoWs for his Burning Wish.
3-1-1

Round 6: BURG Tempo
Game 1 and 2: I don't remember the specifics of how I won these games, but my opponent didn't seem to be running Goyfs of his own, so they were a major trump. Also BURG runs a ridiculous mana base that is easy to exploit. If you never find an answer for Deathrite Shaman, your in trouble, but otherwise RUG mostly trumps BURG. The reason why RUG Tempo is the best tempo deck is because it is the best in the tempo mirrors.
4-1-1

Top 8: Lands
Games 1 and 2: Going into this match I thought there was no way I could win since my opponent is running Liliana of the Veil in addition to Punishing Fire and was running Grafdigger's Cage over Surgical Extraction in the SB. My opponent's build proved to be a little clunky against RUG Tempo though, he needed to support UU for Tolaria West, BB for Liliana and had to run Grove of the Burnwillows as well. In game 1, I was able to Daze Life from the Loam a couple times since he had to sacrifice a land to Glacial Chasm and had other non mana producing lands like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith in play. Game 2 was basically more of the same, my opponent wasn't able to resolve Life from the Loam once.

Top 4: RUG Tempo Mirror
Game 1: I win when I am on the play like I am supposed to.
Game 2 and Game 3: I flood crazily in both of these games on fetchlands which was a bit tilting. In game 3 I probably could have one when I had 3 Fetchlands, 2 duals, and a Waste on the table to his Wasteland and fetchland. I should have Wasted his Waste and ate the card disadvantage since all I had was lands. This would have put him down a land, and when he top decked a land next turn, his Tarmogoyf would have still of been within Daze land. His Tarmogoyf would not have been a problem if I could draw anything besides Scalding Tarn, but alas, it wasn't to be.

I consider the main deck to be locked in stone and would not change it until a better burn spell is printed. I am cutting the 2nd Ancient Grudge from the sideboard and am going to have to consider my graveyard hate package. Unfortunately I never drew Young Pyromancer but I like the card in theory. I definitely consider Flusterstorm to be worse than Spell Pierce and Red Elemental Blast in the SB.

[Sasan]

@BKClassic: Pleade stop assuming that bUrg has a negative RUG Delver matchup. The person did not play a good list obviously- goyfless is a no go. So please make that statement only
if you have won a couple of matches versus a good list(see my
primer for that matter) ;-)

[BKclassic]

@BKClassic: Pleade stop assuming that bUrg has a negative RUG Delver matchup. The person did not play a good list obviously- goyfless is a no go. So please make that statement only
if you have won a couple of matches versus a good list(see my
primer for that matter) ;-)

I hear what you're saying but your BURG list is 4 colors and runs Taiga and doesn't run Gitaxian Probe, these are serious strategic set backs. I am not saying it's a 70/30 match up or anything, but RUG has the stronger strategic game plan for the tempo mirror, IMO.

[Sasan]

I hear what you're saying but your BURG list is 4 colors and runs Taiga and doesn't run Gitaxian Probe, these are serious strategic set backs. I am not saying it's a 70/30 match up or anything, but RUG has the stronger strategic game plan for the tempo mirror, IMO.

Perhaps you are right that RUG seems to have a better midgame than bUrg because of the Goyfs and the better mana base. But bUrg can have great tempo starts versus Canadian if Shaman stays unchecked for a few turns. In the end it comes down to player skill. An average RUG player loses to a good bUrg player. I did not have problems versus Canadian but I know that a lot of bUrg beginners have real problems beating Canadian. As bUrg has better matchups versus midrange decks it is overall a great tempo deck and I encourage all Canadian players to try it. In my opinion it is the best tempo deck for the current Shaman/Decay meta game. If that changes a bit Canadian can become the tempo deck to play again. But before we discuss this to the end let us perhaps agree on the fact that Canadian or bUrg are far better tempo decks than Patriot, Grixis and Team America.

[loop]

Not as of yet; I am, however, running 2 pithing needle to similar effect. Has totem's 2 cmc ever been a problem?

Well 2 manas in RUG is never really hard to achieve (especially for Totem which is colorless), it's having these 2 manas while keeping pierce / stifle mana up that's difficult. And in these match-ups I find you mostly want to be proactive anyway, so no I haven't had any issue with it's casting cost. Especially since it's such a bomb, it really turns games around, which seems worth the mana investment (like rough//tumble, for example).

[cheerios]

I played BURG vs RUG before and was able to win. Goyf isn't that scary when you have Abrupt Decay and Submerges. But I have to agree that RUG can easily cut BURG one of its colors. However, the match up is pretty even depending on draw and player skill.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played BURG vs RUG before and was able to win. Goyf isn't that scary when you have Abrupt Decay and Submerges. But I have to agree that RUG can easily cut BURG one of its colors. However, the match up is pretty even depending on draw and player skill.
Imho the matchup is about Stifle, Waste and burn. Once you'll cut BURG of lands and DRS, it shouldn't be hard to win. To accomplish this task... now that is quite a different story.

[Barbed Blightning]

Imho the matchup is about Stifle, Waste and burn. Once you'll cut BURG of lands and DRS, it shouldn't be hard to win. To accomplish this task... now that is quite a different story.

No quite so hard, IMO. Then again, I feel pretty experienced in the tempo mirror

[thecrav]

Taking a break from UW. Threw this together at the last minute: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/thrown-together-rug/

Was missing some stuff, so I threw in random one-ofs. Ended up doing well. 3-1, missing top 4 on tiebreakers

Round 1: W Staxx - Lost to hubris and not knowing what a couple cards did
0-1

Round 2: Maverick
Game 1: Wasteland and Well-timed counters keep him off mana for most of the game. He finally amasses enough blockers while he's at 6 life. Double bolt takes him down a couple turns later
Game 2: He scoops after missing a multiple triggers. (regular REL, so I'm not sure why?)
1-1

Round 3: Affinity
Game 1: He reaches critical mass and explodes before I do much
Game 2: Island > Delver > Go . He opens with a Mox Opal before playing land. Turns out his hand relied heavily on that opal and my daze blows him out. Won in the next few turns with little interaction
Game 3: He eats most of his board with Ravager to block and kill a Mongoose. Wasteland + Loam and the next turn he's got no mana producers. A 'goyf quickly comes down to make Ravager not matter.
2-1

Round 4: Death and Taxes
Game 1: I don't get going fast enough. Mom backs up a Mirran Crusader carrying a Jitte to beat me quickly
Game 2: I play pyromancer turn 2. I daze 3 times and bolt 2 moms. A couple of cantrips and my army is huge. He's done in a handful of turns.
Game 3: The biggest threat he plays is 3x Phyrexian Revoker. He later tells me he kept it in because nothing in his sideboard is good. There's three Rest in Peace in his board. I explain why that card is good against RUG.
3-1

I end up 5th. 4th place is my round 1 opponent. Oh well. We go out and have beers and burgers. A good time is had by all.

Thoughts:
The one-off pyromancer was actually pretty solid. Each time an opponent saw it, you could tell their game plan was changing. It also won one game against D&T. I'd probably move up to 2 maindeck, if only to exploit that.

Loam was similar - it won one game and definitely messed with a couple people's heads when I did it. The dredge ability also ended up making an opponent's crypt not matter

I've found most of the rest of the cards I wanted to be playing, so I'll likely play a similar-but-better deck next week.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thaks for report, thecrav!

I've played RUG in four rounds of swiss today.

The list was this:

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

No gy hate at all, and although I've noticed some combo decks, I stayed true to the 2 Sulfurs instead of SE/Clique split.


R1, Leoš, D&T
Is there a saying about ripped bags in English? No matter what, both are lgs are full of this deck, like if a bag of them ripped apart.
g1: For the course of a game, Leoš played Vial (Dazed), Wasted my only land (Trop) and then resolved Mom, StP and Mindcensor. I played Mongoose and Delver and unsurprisngly this wasn't enough. Sitting on zero lands and staring at the flash-parrot, I realized I may just as well go to post-board games.
sb: in KGrip, Grudge, Needles, Roughs and Sulfur Elementals. (Please, do me a favor and invent some reasonable shortcut for the guy.) Out Forces and Dazes.
g2: I opened a lovely seven:
Misty Rainforest, Misty Rainforest, Misty Rainforest, Misty Rainforest, Tropical Island, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt.
Would you keep this hand? :smile: I did not...
Mull to quite reasonable 6. Having nothing else to do on turn 1, I blindly Needled the Vial. Bad move, maybe, but when there's nothing else to do... Should I keep the Needle for an actual threat that shows up? IDK, I liked the possibility to use my otherwise dead turn and preemptively pinch the dangerous card. I had Bolt for MoR and yes, she showed up, so I got rid of it. I played double Brainstorm in resp.to Thalia, hopefully sending a misleading message that I dig for a counter. (In fact I had pretty reasonable hand, just that I needed to got rid of some stuff and when else than in resp to a tax-bear?). On my turn I played BS and Ponder, getting a Bolt in process. Thalia was solved, but another one was topdecked. I got Mongoose online and we started a race which I was winning in few turn. Then came Goyf. Then Fiend Hunter, but I had Stifle ready. Then my deck brought a second Goyf...
g3: MoR was Bolted once again. Vial resolved, so did Delver. Mirran Crusader ate Bolt, Jitte joined party, Delver ate Sunlance. I Grudged Vial to not fall into some trick. Leoš tapped my only green with Port, but I finally got Goyf online when I drawn another fetch. I Grudged Jitte, he in return Wasted my Trop and StPed Goyf. I got another one and soon it was all over for the rebels.
Win, 1:0.


R2, Karel, Nic Fit
Playing with a shopkeeper is always a "pleasure", but in fact we were hardly ever distracted today, except when he needed to go away and explain some ruling. Otoh, he's nice guy and he's really helpful and caring.
There's not much to tell about the abysmal matchup. Lets say I was never even a light year close to draw, not to mention win.
g1: He played Explorer, I tried Delver, hoping to race him. Therapy and Stryx later all was lost and I conceded on 14 life with a barely empty hand and completely creatureless battlefield.
Q: What's the basic idea behind our sbing in this mu? I start to think that the best approach is to say "bah, this doesn't matter " and leave the things as they are, maybe just add Needle for SDT and of course Submerges. Because the only thing that really matters is the Explorer's trigger. Either you prevent it and win in the short time frame when the opponent is trying to get to his mana, or you can't stop it and then you're doomed once the big stuff like Pernicious Deed or Grave Titan gets to play.
sb: I took out some mix of counterspells and added Submerges, Needles and even Pyroblasts (to fight the CA engine of Stryx, Jace, Shardless or 'Tral.)
g2: Again, there's not much to say. The most saddening thing is that Karel ended on four life, yet there was no chance how to get him even a bit more lower, once Grave Titan clogged the board.
But I'm not sad, this mu is like 30:70 for us, so it's no surprise I've lost.
Loss, 1:1.

R3, Jiří, Reanimator
Hm. Not the best idea to remove the gy-hate, true? :smile:
g1: I got Mongoose out, Jiří played Entomb. I let it resolve, but Dazed the Exhume. He Duressed me, taking something out; FoW? Three Careful Studies late he was still unable to do anyting, but it started to become obvious he uses suboptimal deck with shocks, painlands and even the Tainted Isle. On his twelve life I played FB to dome and once I Snared another Exhume, my Mongoose was much bigger in a moment. Opponent conceded on four life.
sb: out FBs, of course, then some less relevant cards so that there's space for Flusterstorm and Blasts.
g2: I mulled a no-lander and then a double-Waste. Oh, who would not love Tempo Thresh!? :laugh: I kept very nice hand, though, and I let the opponent play two Lotus Petals, pass. (He also mulled to five and he kept a no-lander, as he has more colored manasources and may win with them.) But I countered his BS played of LP with my Daze and he didn't have an untapped Island for his Flusterstorm...
We've done very little, I just tapped Mongoose over and over again. Then I finally got BS+Ponder and since then it was easy, as I finally got some couterspells. Jiří got a dual and played Duress with one mana open, but I played Daze which he Flusterstormed... Next turn I refilled my hand with blue counters and we finished the game with my opponent sitting on one land, while I had a grip of seven blue nasty counters.
Win, 2:1.

R4, Petr, Elves!
A buddy of mine.
g1: He played GSZ while I got Delver online. I had pretty bad hand (esp. because I mulled to 6), but having two Delvers and BS, I was positive. I FoWed Glimpse after a short thinking. (You should do it even if the opponent looks badly mana deprived, because they may sandbag Cradle and explode with it... like it happened to me despite the fact I didn't let the Glimpse resolve.)
Petr played Nettle, Birch, Symb, QPM and some random 1/1 elf very fast and he kicked me out of game, while beeing effectively already defeated: I had two flipped Delvers, but he had ten life, so even if I tore Bolt from the top, it still wouldn't be enough: I needed to draw BS and find TWO burn spells with it.
sb: No Submerges. The idea is that I don't have enough resources to play the spell; I won't win on1for1 basis. I need to stop Glimpse and then sweep the board, exactly in this order, so I took just Flusters and Roughs, out Dazes (on play), two Geese, then also Needles for g3, when I realized I want them for Symbiote/DRS.
g2+3 I have very little notes, mainly because it isn't easy to make any when the games are over sooo fast. I just remember washing away his whole team with a Rough. Two times. Symbiote was pretty annoying as always.
Win, 3:1


For my effort I won a credit of 300 CZK which is about 15 USD. I took a pause to think this out, then I've chosen my prizes:
2 Karoo Meerkat (Mir)
2 Swords to Plows (Ice Age)
1 BoP (4ED)


Nice evening!

[poxy14]

went second on a small tourney (2-1) i think it was atleast 12 players, 3 rounds...

G1 - vs UWR miracles...
1L: resolved entreat mid game selaed the game for me, wasnt able to draw anything that could slow him down...wastes/stifles...
2W: this was from bedecks, including 2 pithing needles in my sb has been doing wonders for me...now im not scared from a resolved top...
kept him away from building manas, stifled everything that will give him blue, he lost the game with a plians and a mountain...
3W: very grindy and it was a losing situation for me, until i was able to reb his vendilion (only threat at that moment) and pierce/pierce/izzet his last hurrah for an entreat vs my single mongoose...ftw!

G2 - vs JUNK
1w: was able to race him with delvers, 2 drs ate bolts and he had trouble getting to 3 manas, dazed his kotr the time he cast it.
2L: remove daze, pierce for more anti creature...stuff like rough, grudge (it was with sfm package), submerges...but then Lilli came...had no answer..
3L: was able to slow him down, and almost won the game with delvers when he resolved lingering souls...made my clock slow until he was able to estabilize with kotrs, he was down to 6, i had a bolt...wishing for a topdecked brainstorm for a second bolt...drew blank.....

G3 - Burg
1w: mulled to 5 drawing 2 fetches, 1 dismember, fow, delver....my opp. was so greedy he played a 1-lander usea to a drs, which was dismember on my turn, he again went for a 2nd drs which i fowed and passed the turn...i drew WASTELAND! that was it!
2w: i was able to get more manas, and killed every drs i saw..i already established board and had 2 roughs still in my hand..i think we're more manageable vs this deck, if we keep drs checked...he had goyfs too and a tombstalker which he wasnt able to cast...

i do really need to find a spot for a sulfur elemental..im just not comfortable without any sb vs gydecks...
my list:

stock rug:
18 lands
30 spells: included are the 1 of's (snare/forked/dismember/izzet = this card is awesome!)
12 crits: 3 goyfs/1 ooze

sb:
2 PNeedles
3 submerges
1 grudge
1 grip
2 rebs
1 pierce
1 clique
2 roughs
2 surgicals

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello poxy14, thanks for the blitzreport and I'm glad you find Needles helpful. Were you sbing them against Junk? They stop DRS and Liliana, plus they make KotR a bit less useful; you may also emergency pith the SFM if they go for BSK and then watch them tryin to build five mana to hardcast the Skull.

On the Sulfur Elemental: I deliberately decided to not use any gy hate and so far I don't miss it:
- Dredge is extinct.
- Reanimator is hardly ever played and you may still win with a well placed counterspell.
- PiF combo pilots may win with an IT chain, they may try fast AdN (though this is pretty dangerous after turn3) or they may bait/remove the Crypt with CRit/Chain of V., etc.; there are many, many possibilities.
- There's no Intuition.dec anymore.
- Waste+Extraction is not a good plan against mirror.
- Extraction against crucial spell (Goyf/IT/S&T/EtI/etc.) is quite a solid plan, but you need to counter it (or better said: get that card to their gy) first and then you need to extract it. This is two-cards combo at the very least, with Extraction doing very little on its own.

[poxy14]

[QUOTE=Bed Decks Palyer;758100]Hello poxy14, Were you sbing them against Junk?

i did, unfotunately i wasnt able to get any on that crucial g3...
vs that deck (junk) pithing needle is a monster! just too many targets...and that deck packs lots of hates too vs us..deeds, kotrs, drs, sfm...just TOUGH!

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, deed is generally bad vs us thanks to stifle; however, I do agree with the potency of needle vs Rock decks

[thecrav]

- Reanimator is hardly ever played and you may still win with a well placed counterspell.

Yes you can win with a counterspell, but Reanimator is hardly dead. Of the last 7 SCG opens, there have been 10 Reanimator decks top 16 - more than any other single archetype.

IMO, going into any eternal format without at least a couple pieces of GY hate is asking to get blown out

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes you can win with a counterspell, but Reanimator is hardly dead. Of the last 7 SCG opens, there have been 10 Reanimator decks top 16 - more than any other single archetype.
IMO, going into any eternal format without at least a couple pieces of GY hate is asking to get blown out
Wait, wait! Of course that I'm speaking of my own meta! :smile:
I don't need any gy hate in our lgs, otoh, if there'd be a bigger weekend tournament (say 40+ ppl), I would need to consider gy hate, as there would definitely be some Dredge or w/e. Otoh, the percentages of that decks (Reanimator/Dredge) would be still the same as in the case of Thursday's Legacies (read: 0-2 %) so there's hardly any reason to bother with them. Yes, you can't reliably rely on them been outclassed and forced to swob the lower tables, and yes, you may lose to them, otoh the nature of those decks (esp. Ichorid) is that even if you pack a small amount of hate (e.g. double Crypt or something similar), you may still lose without any chances.

So, my point is:
- as long as your meta doesn't warrant gy hate...
- ...and as long as those very rare gy decks may win through a tiny gy hate...
...there' no reason to clog your sb with a pair of anti-graveyard cards that (a) may be never used and you may lack other cards during your more usual matchups and (b) may not be enough even in the rare case you'll run into a gy based deck.



Well, deed is generally bad vs us thanks to stifle; however, I do agree with the potency of needle vs Rock decks
They play discard. Also, you need to "waste" your Stifles on early fetchlands' activation (or against opposing Wastelands), so that you keep the game in early stages and may win with your superior tempo. Also, singleton DRS may ruin your day as it shrinks your gy and most notably helps to get out of manascrew. Needle is another one-mana answer to DRS (though it is a waste, I'd rather keep it aganst Lili/Deed) and it stops multiples and future draws of them.

[Ziveeman]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWtWqR2CIAEMPuf.jpg

nemesis of identity 1UU
Merfolk rogue
When ~~ enters the battlefield, choose a player.
~~ has protection from chosen player (It can't be blocked, targeted, damaged, enchanted by a source controlled by this player)
3/1.

This new Merfolk seems really good in RUG Delver. Running 19 lands may be necessary to fit him in (or 7/7 or 6/8 fetch/dual split, but even as a 1 or 2 of, he attacks and blocks (if I understand the rules of 'protection from target player') really well. Also not vulnerable to GY hate.

[Isre Morn]

Once "Identity Nemesis" resolves against RUG, it's little hard to handle with it for us, too.
Beside manabase-wasting and countering our bolts, roughs and creatures (except delver flies over it) will cry for justice.

[Sasan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWtWqR2CIAEMPuf.jpg

nemesis of identity 1UU
Merfolk rogue
When ~~ enters the battlefield, choose a player.
~~ has protection from chosen player (It can't be blocked, targeted, damaged, enchanted by a source controlled by this player)
3/1.

This new Merfolk seems really good in RUG Delver. Running 19 lands may be necessary to fit him in (or 7/7 or 6/8 fetch/dual split, but even as a 1 or 2 of, he attacks and blocks (if I understand the rules of 'protection from target player') really well. Also not vulnerable to GY hate.

This. Although I do not know if RUG Delver wants a CC3 spell.

[cheerios]

Thresh can add Engineered Explosives back into the sideboard if this creature starts to pop up in deck lists.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Very unnecessary design and quite stupid card. We can't play it, but we need to be prepared for it. The best way how to fight it, is to destroy the opponent's lands, Pyroblast the card on stack or make it small (aka counter all the upgrades like Jitte, etc.)
I'm not glad to see this, but I also don't fear too much.

[Sasan]

It is time to up the number of Rebs or Pyroblasts in the SBs. Daze becomes better again after it lost some minor steam after the printing of Shaman. CC3 is good for us, with our mana denial package many many Identity Nemesis' will run into our Dazes.

We should not have fear. I think Maverick, Goblins, Jund or even DnT should get some headaches as I cannot see how on earth they will kill that creature (Wrath of God harms DnT and Maverick too much and the same goes for Golgari Charm in Dark Maverick builds. Jund's Lilli seems the only reasonable out).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It is time to up the number of Rebs or Pyroblasts in the SBs. Daze becomes better again after it lost some minor steam after the printing of Shaman. CC3 is good for us, with our mana denial package many many Identity Nemesis' will run into our Dazes.

We should not have fear. I think Maverick, Goblins, Jund or even DnT should get some headaches as I cannot see how on earth they will kill that creature (Wrath of God harms DnT and Maverick too much and the same goes for Golgari Charm in Dark Maverick builds. Jund's Lilli seems the only reasonable out).

Yep, it definitely looks like ourtempo strategy is our best tactic how to avoid the card by simply not letting it come to play.
Btw: D&T my start to pack Tariff.

[TheKingslayer]

It is time to up the number of Rebs or Pyroblasts in the SBs. Daze becomes better again after it lost some minor steam after the printing of Shaman. CC3 is good for us, with our mana denial package many many Identity Nemesis' will run into our Dazes.

We should not have fear. I think Maverick, Goblins, Jund or even DnT should get some headaches as I cannot see how on earth they will kill that creature (Wrath of God harms DnT and Maverick too much and the same goes for Golgari Charm in Dark Maverick builds. Jund's Lilli seems the only reasonable out).

Zealous Persecution is viable for Maverick.

[Barbed Blightning]

It's just a dude--and nothing too obscene at that. Essentially a 3/1 invisible stalker for three? Legacy is the format of 3/2 fliers for one, 4/5s for two and a 7/7 life linked, flying Yawgmoth's Bargain that costs between one and three depending on your deck.

He has none of the dimensionality of Deathrite or the beef of Emrakul to cause much of a warp in the format. Color me unimpressed

[trollking21]

It's just a dude--and nothing too obscene at that. Essentially a 3/1 invisible stalker for three? Legacy is the format of 3/2 fliers for one, 4/5s for two and a 7/7 life linked, flying Yawgmoth's Bargain that costs between one and three depending on your deck.

He has none of the dimensionality of Deathrite or the beef of Emrakul to cause much of a warp in the format. Color me unimpressed

Invisible stalker can't block most things profitably or survive damage based wraths (rough//tumble for us)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Invisible stalker can't block most things profitably or survive damage based wraths (rough//tumble for us)
This.
It'll be quite annoying if our Goyfs/Mongoses will be forced to stay at home all night long, on the other hand, it's still a three-drop in a Wasteland format, so yeah, it won't matter much.

[trollking21]

The only deck that will play and I'll be scared of it is merfolk. Simply because stifling them off of mana or wasting them may not stop them from landing him. I can't think of many other decks that really want him that badly.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Btw, is there any chance that this card could see play in RUG builds with Lavamancer instead of/side-by-side Mongoose?

[Sasan]

Without Shamans I do not think that RUG can play a three-drop and still maintain its gameplan. For example in many situations Wastelands must be used to cast True-Name Nemesis. So to sum it up: Never ever will RUG play this card main deck. Nimble mongoose might not be as good as that new guy but RUG never needed that much evasion and Nimble Mongoose has a decent strength, too. But True-Name can be a great sideboard card versus control, blade decks, DNT, Jund etc..In Germany we played 2 Troll Ascetics in the RUG sideboards as Decay decks were en vogue and it worked damn well. True Name is strictly better than Troll. So keep your eyes open for SB madness with that guy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Without Shamans I do not think that RUG can play a three-drop and still maintain its gameplan. For example in many situations Wastelands must be used to cast True-Name Nemesis. So to sum it up: Never ever will RUG play this card main deck. Nimble mongoose might not be as good as that new guy but RUG never needed that much evasion and Nimble Mongoose has a decent strength, too. But True-Name can be a great sideboard card versus control, blade decks, DNT, Jund etc..In Germany we played 2 Troll Ascetics in the RUG sideboards as Decay decks were en vogue and it worked damn well. True Name is strictly better than Troll. So keep your eyes open for SB madness with that guy.

Thanks for your input!

I'm surprised with the Troll Ascetic. And do you know why? Because I already thought about the card, namely due to omnipressence of Decay, but also because it was my favourite card and also I still got a Jap. one. But then I dismissed the troll as too expensive. I'm glad he worked for you! :smile:

[Sasan]

Yeah and note that Troll needed double green and 1g for regeneration. It was always tough to cast it. You had to play tight. True Name with only blue mana requirements and no regeneration cost is strictly better.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yeah and note that Troll needed double green and 1g for regeneration. It was always tough to cast it. You had to play tight. True Name with only blue mana requirements and no regeneration cost is strictly better.

Yep, Nemesis will be much much better. Shame that it has ugly illustration. (And is generally dully designed.)

[Barbed Blightning]

Nemesis could be decent vs control and maybe GBx. Not much else to say about the card.

Currently 5-1 at SCG Seattle. Only loss to punishing zoo

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Nemesis could be decent vs control and maybe GBx. Not much else to say about the card.

Currently 5-1 at SCG Seattle. Only loss to punishing zoo
Yep, hopefully we don't need to waste 250 bucks for a set of crappy Folk.
Lets us know how you finished! Good luck!

[Cenarius]

Is someone familiar with all the tempo lists (RUG Delver, UR Delver, Patriot Delver, Grixis Tempo & rUbg tempo, if I'm not forgetting something) that can possibly list pro's and con's of those lists?

Why would u pick one list over another?

[Pherion]

Is someone familiar with all the tempo lists (RUG Delver, UR Delver, Patriot Delver, Grixis Tempo & rUbg tempo, if I'm not forgetting something) that can possibly list pro's and con's of those lists?

Why would u pick one list over another?

One of the easiest ways to look at this is what the colors do:

Blue - control/cantrip
Red - burn/removal
Green - Smash!
White - Control/Critters
Black - Card Advantage

RUG - combines red, green, and blue to create a very efficient and versatile deck. The control is focused on mana denial through wastelands and stifles, with taxing counters playing a primary role. Red shows up as a splash for burn and sideboard. The burn provides reach and removal. Finally, green is there to end the game. Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose are some of the best creatures around.

BUG - drops red, and replaces it with black. This allows them to play a different kind of card advantage game - mainly discard. Most BUG tempo lists play a number of Thoughtsieze and Hymn to Tourach - both of which are good at generating card advantage. You still have Goyf, but many lists opt not to play Mongoose in favor of Tombstalker, which is a bomb that is difficult to deal with (unless you have a swords). Black also replaces the removal with things like Ghastly Demise, Disfigure, Dismember, etc, etc, etc....

UB - Dropping the green entirely, this deck focuses on trying to take your opponent out as soon as possible. I would venture to say this deck is closer to hard core burn with Delver's thrown in instead of a tempo deck. They don't many a lot of tempo plays, and mainly focus on getting the first few points of damage in with critters and finishing you off with a Pernicious Deed or 4 Bolts.

Grixis - I don't have much experiance with this one, so I can't really comment. I don't even recall seeing a tempo deck in these colors recently.

BURG - This deck is greedy ... if you are a Scrooge McDuck, go for it! Deathrites do an ok job fixing mana, but you can get hit hard by mana denial. The deck expands on RUG's normal game plan, and adds a few black cards ... manly deathrite. If you want to get wasted out, go for this deck. I just think it's too greedy.

Patriot! - You've dropped green from RUG and replaced it with white. This gives some interesting cards like Geist, Swords and Stoneforge. The cool thing about patriot is that it can go with an early game plan - slam a delver and protect it till they are dead. Or a long plan, stoneforge, control the board a bit with swords and bolt, etc. Geist provides a fantastic clock, and is beautiful for equipping swords to.

If I had to pick on, I'd go with RUG or Patriot, just because they fit my play style better. I've seen UR and BURG go places, but I feel they are just sub-par. BUG is just out. If you want to play BUG, pick up sharless agents and baleful strixes.

[Barbed Blightning]

Ended up 5-4 at the Seattle Open. Abysmal, barely made top 64. Two of our comrades took 1st and 6th, however.

List was standard, with two pierces, snares and forked bolts. Sideboard was:

3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 REB
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Cage (with Reanimator's resurgence and the presence of Dredge in the room, I opted for some hate)
1 Grudge
1 Grip

Matches went as followed

R1: Pox, 2-0

Both games he failed to understand that this deck DOES stifle fetchlands, leaving them uncracked even after having the play game two. I happily oblige, and both games Delvers and Goyfs rip him to shreds.

R2: MUD, 2-0

Game one he names construct on his cavern to slip in a Metalworker. He reveals two citadels, a Sundering Titan and a Blightsteel. He opts for titan, casts him with cavern mana and assumes I care about having lands in play. Nimble mongoose is happy to be threshed, and my Delvers attack over his big dumb robot, goose on blocking duty. He goes to play Colossus and I counter. Game two I waste him out of the game, with Grip and Grudge in my opening hand.

Pop Quiz: What is Sundering Titan's subtype (if he's using the Darksteel edition?)
Answer: Golem. Not even my opponent knew that.

R3: Shardless BUG, 2-0

Another brutal round of stifled fetchlands. Favorite moment: He casts thoughtseize, I bolt him. Reveal hand of nothing but lands. Thanks for the free time walk.

R4: Reanimator, 2-1

I'm starting to feel the caffeine drain out of me and I'm hitting the top players now. This guy ended up 13th. Not much to say about the games; 1 and 3 My delvers and countermagic killed him before he could resolve a reanimation effect. Game 2... well, Mr. Gitaxias is still very much a card.

4-0? Awesome start! I might actually make Top 8 today, and I haven't even played Legacy in two months. Little did I know...

R5: Shawn Yu, Punishing Zoo (7th place overall), 1-2

Shawn's super friendly (note: basically all of my opponents at the open were friendly; I think it's a regional thing, because East Coast Legacy players are more... intense) and he sets down a box with angel tokens. I stumble into the mind trick and keep a hand to fight miracles, not turn one wild nacatyl. Shawn beats the crap out of me game one. Game two I beat the crap out of him. Game three ("the first I've had today," he says) he plays a Knight and doesn't lose it to the submerge in my hand. Eventually, a series of top decked lands forces me to concede.

R6: Deadguy Junk, 2-1

Game two I accidentally switched my graveyard with my sideboard. Thank you, new sideboarding rules. Games one and three I beat him to death with delvers and goyfs. Fun fact: bitterblossom is a Tribal Enchantment. It's like Purina Goyf Chow.

5-1? Okay, still got a shot at it. Just need to win two and drawn into Top 8...

R7: Henry Romero, Affinity (4th place overall; good job, chief!), 1-2

"I prefer Modern over Legacy" he says. I'm skeptical, especially after he proceeds to explain to me how Modern consists of only six actual decks. This doesn't stop him from kicking my ass game one with Ravager and Skirge. Game two I finish with two Goyfs (5/6), two Delvers (flipped) and two mongeese (threshed) and a Bolt in hand, with him at 5 life. Game three he opts not to overextend into my Rough and he blows out my 1/1 goose on defense with a whipflare. Needle comes down too late and Plating/Ravager pummel me. Aside from a tendency to fastplay (maybe it was an intentional strategy, maybe it's just affinity, so whatever) Henry was super friendly and a great opponent.


R8: Reanimator, 0-2

Remember how I said Jin Gitaxias is a real card? Still is. Iona on Green game two with me struggling to find anything relevant to do is odd though; I'd think Blue for cantrips or Red for burn would be the better play. Also: NEVER TAKE OUT ALL OF YOUR BURN VS THIS DECK. I did, still regretting it.

So. I'm tilted at this point. I'm usually not tilty (I think) but I feel like I've lost only to myself or because of this deck's infuriating inability to fight back after getting behind.

R9: Deadguy Junk, 0-2

Only thing positivie to say here was my opponent. He was super forgiving of my shitty misplays, bitchiness and general lack of sportsmanlike conduct (never slamming him, just complaining about my deck, the game, etc.) He owns Time Vault Games (http://www.timevaultgames.com/) in Portland, OR. Check em out, in northwest is in dire need of more Legacy support.



So, that all happened. Honestly, I've gotten sick of the deck, though I have always been a Timmy so I doubt any Legacy deck is going to be very fulfilling. The upshot of this, though, is that I'm dropping RUG for the time being, probably for Reanimator since, you know, turn one Griselbrand. I'll still be raving about something here on occasion or will talk theory. But as far as playing is concerned, I'm through with this deck.

I will say this: fucking play Gitaxian Probe, as a three of. The information really is invaluable, especially with Pithing Needle, Stifle, what to dig up or shuffle away with Brainstorm/Ponder and probably a dozen other reasons. I know I've argued against it in the past, but all the top RUG decks as of late seem to be running it to full effect.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks for the report! Shame you did not make it to he Top 64! :mad:
So you're joining the dark side? You'll be missed!:frown:

[Barbed Blightning]

Thanks for the report! Shame you did not make it to he Top 64! :mad:
So you're joining the dark side? You'll be missed!:frown:

I made 60th, so I at the very least made my money back.

I mean, the "dark side" is all about perspective. Sure, we view combo as the bogeyman, yet this deck has been stifling fetchlands since damn near the dawn of the format. "Unfair" has more than one definition. Besides, it's not like I'm playing Omniscience; I just want to play Iona on Blue vs y'all turn one. :cool:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I made 60th, so I at the very least made my money back.

I mean, the "dark side" is all about perspective. Sure, we view combo as the bogeyman, yet this deck has been stifling fetchlands since damn near the dawn of the format. "Unfair" has more than one definition. Besides, it's not like I'm playing Omniscience; I just want to play Iona on Blue vs y'all turn one. :cool:

Oh, seems like I can't read! Congrats on your finish, then. It could be better, but it could also be worse.
Yeah, the Stiflewasteis quite unfair. We play our own version of Iona. :smile:

[Sasan]

Congrats to the good finish mate ;)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Played 4 rounds of swiss with Thresh Can in our lgs.

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

Never missed a gy hate slot. Never.


R1, Jiří, monoblack lowbudget deck
Hardest mu of all the decks I met. Thresh is notorious for been bad against all-basics, full-of-removal decks.
g1: I Snared Hymn. Next turn I played BS in resp. to Vampire Nighthawk finding nothing to neither counter it nor burn it; FB is one dmg too small. I FoWed another Hymn (pitching Stifle), then I played Mongoose and Pondered. On his 21 life (and my 15) the opponent played Nantuko Shade and attacked with Nighthawk, keeping no mana open; IDK what else he played. I FBed the Nanuk and played Delver and Mong. no.2, then I attacked with the first one. (It was threshed already, so having six power on board wasn't that bad, with a burn or two I may remove/race the Hawk.) On his next turn Jiří played Lashwrithe which I FoWed (Ponder), dazing him completely. (He's a beginner, so lots of my cards were complete surprise for him and I needed quite some time to explain some cards and/or interactions; also he was not really fast, but w/e.) I attacked for seven, but Jiří still refused to block and his Nighthawk was chewing away chnks of my life total and kept him quite high; we were 10-14 after my attack He played Liliana of the Dark Realms and found Swamp with her, then he pressed again and lowered my life to 8. On my upkeep I flipped Delver with FB,then I attacked with Mongoose to Lili and the rest of team went for the throat. I finished Lili with FB split and passed the trun. Jiří attacked with Nighthawk and I lost on my six life, as he played a megamaximal Consume Spirit (go search it, yeah, it's a Drain Life...) for all his available mana and I lacked any Pierce/Daze/Fow, of course. "It's the end," he informed me with spell on the stack, just if I did not know.
sb: I took out Stifles and some random card (FoW?), as he didn't even play Wastes (it was Super Series Super Budget deck), and took Ancient Grudge (equipment), Pithing Needles (Lili and Nanuk) and Flusterstorms (Hymn/Drain).
g2: I played Delver. It's lovely to play against non-Decay deck once again. I flipped the researcher with Bolt and played another Delver; on Jiří's turn I Dazed Doom Blade. On mynext upkeep I BSed and flipped the Delver with Bolt, then I attacked with both of them putting the opp. on 11 hp. He played Bad Moon which I let resolve. I attacked once more, lowering his life to five, then he played Nighthawk. I had a serious brainfart, because I Bolted it eot. Go figure why it did nothing... On my turn I drwn Needle, then I attacked into his deathtouch blocker sacrificing the Delver in process and doing zero dmg, because "lifelink, you idiot!" At least I played Goyf. I exchanged it for the Hawk on the next turn and as he was 3/4 due to Bad Moon, Jiří was still on five even though Abberation went through. He drawn and played Consume Spirit targeting the bug, but this time I had my Pierce at the ready, so the insect was able to attack the opponent again; I finished him with a Chinese 4ED BB Lightning Bolt.
Unbelievable game, I deserved to lose it, as i made mistake after mistake. I don't understand what do I do in a competitive setting if I can't manage such a simply interactions/abilities like Bad Moon bonus, lifelink dmg or Bolt and toughness of four.
g3: Jiří mulled to six. (I think that tt was the only mulligan my opponents have done for the whole tournament.)
He played Vault Skirge and passed, next turn he tried Lashwrithe of DarkRitual, thankfully I had FoW (and Ponder to pitch) whch once again completely perplexed him. I played Goyf, lately I played Delver, all the while the small Skirge was bringing me down to thirteen. Jiří played Nanuk once again and kept one mana and one card. I flipped Delver with an unknown card,then I attacked into Nanuk with my Goyf and bolted the dude in resp. to Dark Ritual. I was down to 11 life (with opponent on 13) when I finally found a (Forked?) Bolt for the Skirge. I tapped my team and the opponent scooped on his three life during my penultimate turn.
Basic_Lands.dec FT(nearly)W!
Win (not deserved), 1:0.


R2, Lego, ANT
I haven't seen Legolas for at least two years, he said that he did not played Legacy for four years. He was surprised with the increased prices (thankfully he kept most of his money stuff), and we chatted a bit about both of us been haircut. (In fact we did not even notice and acknowledge each other; this also means that it must be no less than one year since we've met for the last time, as it was few weeks before last Christmas when i sold my hair.)
Ok, silly stuff aside...
g1: As I played till the turns, I did not know what I stand against. However a sequence of Delta (Stifle!), Badlands->Duress (Daze!), Wasteland->Badlands left my opponent very sad and me very confident. On his 18 Legolas played LP into IT into DRit finally leaving me in no doubt of what I stand against. I got a Goyf and attacked. Then I got another one and Dazed Lego's Ponder after this he scooped.
sb: out FBs and two Mongooses, in both REBs and F-storms.
g2 I kept a hand with FoW of which Legolas learned thanks to a GP. I played Delver, than on my next turn I Wasted his sole Volc keeping him off lands for the mosst of the pretty short game. He tried to Duress me with an LP, which I Dazed. I attacked him down to 15-12-9 and played Goyf, but now he finally found and instacracked fetch finding Island to play around Waste. He Pondered or w/e which I let resolve, cause I feared any n*LED+PiF absurdity. Then I reduced him to one life and passed. He drawn his final card and revealed a hand of 4 Drit, 2 LED and either 2 IT or IT+CT.
Good game. I like Stifle.
Win, 2:0.


R3, Jiří, ANT
So, second only to Slosh, this guy is The Storm Guy. Fine, I love toknow what I play against, but so did he, sadly.
g1: I kpet what was basically a mull to five: two lands, BS, Pierce, two Bolts and some blue stuff. Either way, I wans't willing to mull to Waste-only hand and thus I kept this risky hand although Jiří started. Otoh, I thought I have time enough to play at least Pierce, and even if Duresses me on turn1, he must choose between that and BS. No matter what, the game was pretty fast. I rode the Delver down to opponent's 16, when a Duress (found by a previous IT) cut me of Pierce (yep, my only counter for the whole game). In a desperate hope that he won't find the necessary cards fast enough, I played both my Delvers and kept the other Bolt (which I was unable to play). He ADNed from 13 and won.
sb: see above.
g2: We exchenged ponder and BS, then I Stifled his fetch. Trun later I Wasted his Volc and played Mongoose. I once again Stifled a fetch and since then it was qite easy: you know that your opponent is losing when he plays Preordain of LP. Jiří stared at the cards and mumbled something like "shame it's not any other land", then scried one card away and keeping Island. I Pondered and plyed Goyf to be a bit faster. Jiří BSed, I BSed eot. On his last life he tried DRit out of LP, but I Pierced it. "It's the end."
g3: Hm. Not nice... to be on draw. I Stifled a fetch, though. Then Jiří Pondered out of LP which I REBed. I also kept my usual fashion of Wasting a Volc on sight and played mongoose. Then Goyf. Jiří otoh kept his usual fashion of LP->Preordain. I BSed eot to find some more cards and then on my turn I knocked him from 11 to 4. (Guess what, dealing seven dmg is soo Threshold.) Jiří scooped with four LEDs in hand, some Ritual, an IT and no other land then Eye-Land, because Legacy is all about fetching basics doctrine. (Ok, I'm not serious - he had to take the basic.)
Win, 3:0


R4, Tom, UBGR
So here I am, reaching my very first prize in idon'tknowhowlong time.
Tom is a card shark of our lgs and he's also a Mr. Suitcase lending several decks on each T1.5 event. He made a good job of his hobby and at his age of 16 or so, I guess his monthly income is greater than that of mine. Not exactly a type of ppl I love, but well, I learned to like him after we've solved a question of "how you should behave towards a person that could be your father and that plays this children's pictorial game for a longer time that you're alive" several months ago.

Sidenote: Tom asked if I really sell my cards and why I don't keep adeck. I told him I'm really selling most of my stuff, but I will keep the RUG cause I believe I'd much rather pity I don't have anything than pity I have something. He also told me that it's not reasonable to cash out, because thanks to the nature of Legacy it's possible to maste one deck and win with it for years, thus this deck pays for itself and brings back prizes and blah blah. Instead of presenting him a certain instruction leaflet (http://imageshack.us/a/img96/4372/v3d7.jpg), I was in a mood for an adult education, so I told the guy that even if we assume that this is true for him, a small kid without other income and duties, it hardly ever may apply to me, as I effectivelly lose money on each tournament: count the gas, time lost, bought soda, etc. "Yep, but the prizes..." was the answer and that's where I became a bit impatient and quit the discussion with simple math example: there are 54 weeks in year, on foru of them there's no ourney due to whatnot, half of the remaining fifty you can't enter due to shiftwork, out of the 25 or so you may reach the prizes (not to speak of a win) in 1/3 of them at the very best (if you're really devoted to the game, format and deck), meaning that for the mere price of 30 thousands CZK you may annualy make some 5-10k crowns after a half-shift effort in a stinky playroom while your family/work awaits you and in case you need to transfer by a car you also spill bensin into sewers like there's no tomorrow.

Ok, onwards to the games!
We were the only ones with 9 points and there were two other guys at 7, so we decided to ID, because reasons reasons "auxiliary rating" reasons reasons. We still played for the better price, though.
g1: I played Delver, he played Delver, I Bolted his Delver, but then I was StifleWasted of lands. He Bolted my Delver. Then he played DRS and countered My FoW attemp after which I scooped. "But why did you scoop so fast?" Because, my child, I had no lands in play, starred at DRS, had a nigh-empty hand and needed to win two more games.
sb: Bah, I think I completely let down the whole match no later than this moment. I remember I sbed something completely silly and I did not even took the R//T and Needles to stop the DRS at any cost. How I wished to win agianst his superior mana and tempo is beyondmy understanding, but w/e, we already split and the prizes were sure, weren't they?
g2: DRS I Dazed. Then soemoene played Delver. I somehow Wasted his land, but then he Wasted my Trop. I played Mongoose and Delver, but these were no match for a Nihil Spellbomb and Goyf and Delver and DRS*2. Also, my Submerge was Pyroblsted. I took him down to 8, but after I lost the Delver I scooped. No matter what, I was on foru life.
Loss, 3:1.


We moved to the cashdesk and looked throguh the pile of prizes: Scrubland, Vindicate and Mushroom Agent; really a cards I don't need at all, esp. as I either just sold them, don't have a deck to use them or simply don't care of their existence. Thankfully the two 7 points guys just jumped above us - says a lot about IDs and all the ordinary tournament wisdom - so we were out of prizes (at least me, which hardly ever hurts, as I lost the match).

I jumped into the car and went for the nightshift, effectiverlly losing hundreds of crowns on gas and missing hours. Here are your prizes, dude.

Pros:
the deck
barmaster laughing at my R4 opponents and agreeing with my words, all of them.
MVP: Stifle

Cons:
money lost
BURG mu
LVP: Sulfur Elemental! Surprising, as it was pretty powerful the last time. Where were all those men with D&T?


I wouldn't change a single card in a deck.

Also: My favourite Force of Will (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvxYOYGjVaw) art.

[Barbed Blightning]

How did bolt not kill nighthawk? It's a 2/3. And how did you play goof under a Moon?

EDIT: oh wow. Bad Moon? Seriously?

[DarkJester]

How did bolt not kill nighthawk? It's a 2/3. And how did you play goof under a Moon?

EDIT: oh wow. Bad Moon? Seriously?

It was a Bad Moon, not a Blood Moon. This should answer both of your questions. :tongue:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Seriously. Bad Moon.

[DragoFireheart]

A Merfolk deck resolving a TNN against us is almost close to game over. Between vial and cavern, they can do this easily enough.

How does RUG handle a resolved TNN?

[MethadronGer]

A Merfolk deck resolving a TNN against us is almost close to game over. Between vial and cavern, they can do this easily enough.

How does RUG handle a resolved TNN?

Just be faster than TNN, there's no way to handle him if it's resolved.

[DragoFireheart]

Just be faster than TNN, there's no way to handle him if it's resolved.

He stops Gofys and Geese with infinite chump blocks. I don't think trying to go faster is a solution.

[MethadronGer]

He stops Gofys and Geese with infinite chump blocks. I don't think trying to go faster is a solution.

Sure but what option you have in our colors? There is no Terminus, or wrath effect. You have no cheap global bounce and red only does damage that will prevented.

[DragoFireheart]

Sure but what option you have in our colors? There is no Terminus, or wrath effect. You have no cheap global bounce and red only does damage that will prevented.

I guess we now have a good idea of where this deck is going in the future meta.

[MethadronGer]

First of all how mutch impact will TNN have, if it only will be played in Merfolk I think we don't really need a solution for it. If it will have more impact we'll have to do some tricks like red leyline and rough.

[ShiftyKapree]

How is TNN a problem, can't we just stifle it?

[DragoFireheart]

First of all how mutch impact will TNN have, if it only will be played in Merfolk I think we don't really need a solution for it. If it will have more impact we'll have to do some tricks like red leyline and rough.

Roughe/Tumble does nothing to TNN.

The red Leylines are completely worthless.




How is TNN a problem, can't we just stifle it?

No. It's ability is not a triggered ability. It's similar to Cavern of Souls mechanics wise.

[MethadronGer]

Red leyline says damage can't prevented rough didn't target so why it doesn't work?

[MethadronGer]

Caverns says "as" that's not a legal target for Stifle. TNN says "when" normally I can Stifle trigger that starts me "when".

[MethadronGer]

Can't edit my posts with this app. Sorry for three posts. TNN has a "as" trigger so no Stifle.

[DragoFireheart]

Red leyline says damage can't prevented rough didn't target so why it doesn't work?

1. You're burning a few slots just to make so our non-targeted burn CAN damage it. CA is in a way already 2-1ing ourselves to deal with one card. Because of the way Leylines works, if you run too few you won't have it in the opening hand. Too many and they will clog up your draws later on.
2. The Leylines are such an awful top-deck for this deck.
3. Too many Lords can foil this plan.
4. You still have to resolve the non-targeted burn spell.
5. Echoing Truth (which they do maindeck)

[MethadronGer]

I didn't say my suggestion is good, it's just a thought how you can handle TNN. Maybe there's a non targeting global burn spell with can't prevented? I didn't found one.

[MethadronGer]

What about Llawan, Cephalid Empress? OK it costs four but if it resolves it's GG for us.

[DragoFireheart]

Maybe there's a non targeting global burn spell with can't prevented? I didn't found one.

I couldn't find one either.

It's frustrating because red is usually a good color choice to fight blue decks sideboard wise.

You could be cute and try a combat trick. Swing into the player with a Goyf, hope he blocks it with TNN, and then cast Skullcrack.


What about Llawan, Cephalid Empress? OK it costs four but if it resolves it's GG for us.

Heh. Good luck resolving it against Merfolk with our manabase and their Wastelands/Stifles (Does Merfolk still run Stifle?). Though if it does resolve it's GG for us.

EDIT: Ather Vial still allows them to put a merfolk into play though.

[MethadronGer]

Merfolk won't put more than two counter on their vial. Maybe just add one REB more to the board. I'm not really afraid of TNN at the moment

[Barbed Blightning]

Merfolk is just one deck though. People belaboured over how Deathrite and RIP were going to kill RUG and look: still going strong. I doubt that one card alone will kill this deck.

Something more problematic would be blade decks picking him up, or other tempo decks. We could always run more REBs or TNNs of our own; time will only tell if this guy accumulates popularity.

However, it's folly to think Fish wouldn't tick their vial up to 3 to flash is a trump card vs us

[trollking21]

With all this talk of TNN has anyone thought of changin our testier base to
4 delver
4 Deathrite
2 TNN
2 goyf
Or even a full 4 TNN it enables us not to be neutered by graveyard hate and have a reliable way to close out the game much the same way that mongoose does but better.
Or is my theory crafting flawed?
I do think that TNN is not doable in RUG without deathrite

[MethadronGer]

I don't like this idea. Mongoose costs 1 TNN costs 3. What do you do when your DRS gets blasted or you don't have lands in your GY? That's the point of Mongoose and Goofy they don't need lands in GY.

[Purgatory]

I think running 2 TNN might be possible even without Shaman, Thresh has had CMC 3 spells before (Clique, Rushing River etc.).

I'm gonna go ahead and grab one or two and test them, maybe with a 19th land.

[lordofthepit]

True-Name Nemesis should be compared to a one-sided blue Sulfuric Vortex that also blocks like a champ in aggressive matchups. Sure, it has some vulnerability to various creature sweepers, but it's probably harder to remove than Sulfuric Vortex is. I'm not sure this is the right deck for it, but I'm certainly going to test it here (and in almost every blue tempo or Blade deck I try).

[trollking21]

]
True-Name Nemesis should be compared to a one-sided blue Sulfuric Vortex that also blocks like a champ in aggressive matchups. Sure, it has some vulnerability to various creature sweepers, but it's probably harder to remove than Sulfuric Vortex is. I'm not sure this is the right deck for it, but I'm certainly going to test it here (and in almost every blue tempo or Blade deck I try).

He survives any damaged based sweepers like pyro clams or rough // tumble so really only p-deed supreme verdict and terminus get him I think.

[DragoFireheart]

]

He survives any damaged based sweepers like pyro clams or rough // tumble so really only p-deed supreme verdict and terminus get him I think.


Supreme Verdict
Terminus
Golgari Charm
Liliana of the Veil
Toxic Delgue


These are some cards that can nuke TNN.

[Cenarius]

Went 3-1 at Legacy warm-up at Grand Prix Antwerp with UGR Delver.

Mainboard with 3 Probe, 1 Forked Bolt.

Sideboard:

1 Divert
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Life from the Loam
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (my old buddies from way back)

Matchups:

2-1 UGR Delver
0-2 Shardless Bug
2-1 Shardless Bug
2-0 Miracle Control

MVP of the day: Nimble Mongoose, honorable mention is Probe.

Things I would change: play more Divert. I wanted to play 3, but eventually played 1. I would cut the Flusterstorms.

Things I did not like about UGR Delver: Once you get behind it's really hard to come back in the game, that's mainly because of Lightning bolt, compared to actual removal. I still believe Lightning Bolt are win-more.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Went 3-1 at Legacy warm-up at Grand Prix Antwerp with UGR Delver.

Mainboard with 3 Probe, 1 Forked Bolt.

Sideboard:

1 Divert
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Life from the Loam
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (my old buddies from way back)

Matchups:

2-1 UGR Delver
0-2 Shardless Bug
2-1 Shardless Bug
2-0 Miracle Control

MVP of the day: Nimble Mongoose, honorable mention is Probe.

Things I would change: play more Divert. I wanted to play 3, but eventually played 1. I would cut the Flusterstorms.

Things I did not like about UGR Delver: Once you get behind it's really hard to come back in the game, that's mainly because of Lightning bolt, compared to actual removal. I still believe Lightning Bolt are win-more.
Grats on the finish! Have you won anything?
What would you recommend instead of Bolts? I'm really surprised by this idea, I find the Bolt extremely important.

[Cenarius]

Grats on the finish! Have you won anything?
What would you recommend instead of Bolts? I'm really surprised by this idea, I find the Bolt extremely important.

I won 3 boosters and a bye for the legacy championship on sunday. But I couldn't play in that tournament since I went day 2 at the Modern (main) event. If I would not make it to day 2, I would have played a different deck (more of that later).

I would recommend a list that plays actual removal instead of Lightning Bolts. I ran a list, back in the days, with:

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember/1 Smother (can't remember).


To be honest, I had literally no idea what to play for the 'small' tournament. Since there are like a billion options for tempo-decks. U only have 12-14 slots for creatures, though 12 is probably my maximum. With creatures like Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose, Delver of Secrets, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Young Pyromancer and what not, to choose from. I simply decided to try the old list (kinda for old sake) since I knew it would be ok.

I really think that Shardless BUG is good, it just plays several bad cards to not make it a better deck. Or maybe just a BUG tempo/team america list would be my choice if I play a legacy tournament.

[cheerios]

@Cenaruis

The bolts are really good for killing walkers and can close games when opponents are really low on life. I played BUG and missed my bolts.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

There's a trouble with the Boltless lists that cheerios described. Otoh, the non-Decay decks suffer of opposing Goyfs. Mabye BURG is the tempo deck to choose, otoh, I dislike it's horrendous manabase and the fact that it's a USD 2000 monstrosity that dies to Forked Bolt.

[Will_L]

There's a trouble with the Boltless lists that cheerios described. Otoh, the non-Decay decks suffer of opposing Goyfs. Mabye BURG is the tempo deck to choose, otoh, I dislike it's horrendous manabase and the fact that it's a USD 2000 monstrosity that dies to Forked Bolt.

BURG doesn't die to Forked Bolt.

RWU delver is the best tempo deck to be playing atm. Grixis delver is another good choice but if you don't stick Pyromancer then you are leaning really hard on Delvers to win you the game.

Sorry for the OT but I really wanted to hear what you meant about FB being good against BURG?

[Tormod]

BURG doesn't die to Forked Bolt.

RWU delver is the best tempo deck to be playing atm. Grixis delver is another good choice but if you don't stick Pyromancer then you are leaning really hard on Delvers to win you the game.

Sorry for the OT but I really wanted to hear what you meant about FB being good against BURG?

I'm playing burg, and I'm interested too on what he mean by folds to forked bolt.

re: UWR Delver, it really isn't a tempo deck at all. it does a good job of intimidating the RUG plan when its opening hand is delver, daze, fetch, brainstorm but the decks is midrange. But STP contradicts the tempo plan, after delver, the decks is severely lacking in cost efficient threats. 4 Daze + 3-4 wastelands its easy to have geist stranded in hand.

[Sasan]

The statement is false.

RUG has 8 creatures that do not die to Forked Bolt (Goyfs and Mongeese).

We have 6 ones (4 Mongeese and 2 Goyfs).

Assuming that no RUG list plays more than one Forked Bolt it makes no sense at all on a mathematical base that bUrg dies more to Forked Bolt compared to RUG Delver itself. That are nuances. In exchange we get Deathrite Shamans and Decays - answers for opposing Mongeese and Goyfs from RUG - so I think the matchup is more than even. We are ahead in that matchup. I could also say: Why play RUG Delver, when everything dies to Decay :-P That would be the same level of false statement.

@UWR: As the new lists play Stoneforge and Equipments there is no way that Patriot can be qualified as a tempo deck. It is a midrange deck with worse control elements than Esper Blade/Death Blade and a tempo deck with worse tempo elements - Swords to Plowshares, 3-drops. So it is an interesting hybrid deck. It has good results. So you can play that deck and have success with it. But do not call it a tempo deck.

[Will_L]

The statement is false.

RUG has 8 creatures that do not die to Forked Bolt (Goyfs and Mongeese).

We have 6 ones (4 Mongeese and 2 Goyfs).

Assuming that no RUG list plays more than one Forked Bolt it makes no sense at all on a mathematical base that bUrg dies more to Forked Bolt compared to RUG Delver itself. That are nuances. In exchange we get Deathrite Shamans and Decays - answers for opposing Mongeese and Goyfs from RUG - so I think the matchup is more than even. We are ahead in that matchup. I could also say: Why play RUG Delver, when everything dies to Decay :-P That would be the same level of false statement.

@UWR: As the new lists play Stoneforge and Equipments there is no way that Patriot can be qualified as a tempo deck. It is a midrange deck with worse control elements than Esper Blade/Death Blade and a tempo deck with worse tempo elements - Swords to Plowshares, 3-drops. So it is an interesting hybrid deck. It has good results. So you can play that deck and have success with it. But do not call it a tempo deck.

Ahh yes, I was not a fan of that innovation, I agree that SFM is not a good fit for tempo and is very often too slow. I am basically playing another Spell Pierce and some Chain Lightnings in place of SFM. The rest of the deck is very similar to other UWR Delver lists that have been placing.

I disagree that UWR isn't a tempo deck. I don't think Geist and StP are enough to stop it from being tempo. You have a very similar game plan (as SFMless UWR delver) to other Delver decks but you trade the speed and efficiency of RUG for not being GY dependant and for having 8+ removal spells. Any deck that plays 4 stifle, 4 waste, 4 daze and a ton of free/cheap counters is a tempo deck in my mind.

[Sasan]

Ahh yes, I was not a fan of that innovation, I agree that SFM is not a good fit for tempo and is very often too slow. I am basically playing another Spell Pierce and some Chain Lightnings in place of SFM. The rest of the deck is very similar to other UWR Delver lists that have been placing.

I disagree that UWR isn't a tempo deck. I don't think Geist and StP are enough to stop it from being tempo. You have a very similar game plan (as SFMless UWR delver) to other Delver decks but you trade the speed and efficiency of RUG for not being GY dependant and for having 8+ removal spells. Any deck that plays 4 stifle, 4 waste, 4 daze and a ton of free/cheap counters is a tempo deck in my mind.

Without Stoneforges I agree that UWR is a tempo deck. The new versions are too far away from the tempo plan.

[Cenarius]

What I find weird, is that around 1/4 of the metagame is Delver. Yet, there is no discussion about what list is better (for which metagame), people simply put together lists with roughly the same cards and get roughly the same results. I just don't get that.

For example, against Shardless BUG. I found out that Tarmogoyf and Delver were practically useless. Strix and Decay are really hard to play against. That matchup is probably pretty bad for the Delver player.

And when I'm looking at the Shardless BUG list, I see a better use of Deathrite Shaman than when they're play at bUrg Tempo. To be honest, I think you (anybody) have to make a choice between Delver and the one-mana planeswalker (Deathrite Shaman).

I will choose Deathrite Shaman over Delver for the next tournament.

[Barbed Blightning]

What I find weird, is that around 1/4 of the metagame is Delver. Yet, there is no discussion about what list is better (for which metagame), people simply put together lists with roughly the same cards and get roughly the same results. I just don't get that.

For example, against Shardless BUG. I found out that Tarmogoyf and Delver were practically useless. Strix and Decay are really hard to play against. That matchup is probably pretty bad for the Delver player.

And when I'm looking at the Shardless BUG list, I see a better use of Deathrite Shaman than when they're play at bUrg Tempo. To be honest, I think you (anybody) have to make a choice between Delver and the one-mana planeswalker (Deathrite Shaman).

I will choose Deathrite Shaman over Delver for the next tournament.

Really? Because I was curbstomping shardless BUG when I was playing RUG. They can't handle goose and their mana is quite vulnerable, esp without shaman. It's not always a cakewalk, but Delver/Goyf and the rest of the deck are hardly "useless." Then again, 2 snares and forked bolts did a lot of work.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

BURG doesn't die to Forked Bolt.

...

Sorry for the OT but I really wanted to hear what you meant about FB being good against BURG?

"Kill the Shaman! Kill him! Kill him now!"

[Sasan]

"Kill the Shaman! Kill him! Kill him now!"

What a flawed explanation of the merits of Forked Bolt versus bUrg. You did not answer my arguments. The matchup comes down to the following point: Can RUG screw bUrg? If yes, RUG has a fair chance to win. If not RUG will lose definitely. I do not know how one can say that the matchup is far in favor of RUG lists with a one-off Forked Bolt. It is at least even. I think it is in favour of bUrg.

[trollking21]

Hey guys some of us are adventurous and run TWO forked bolts. That's right 2!! My flex slots 3 pierce 2 forked 1 snare and I like it a lot. I don't have any experience against BURG variants though. The only cards they splash for a abrupt and shaman right?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What a flawed explanation of the merits of Forked Bolt versus bUrg. You did not answer my arguments. The matchup comes down to the following point: Can RUG screw bUrg? If yes, RUG has a fair chance to win. If not RUG will lose definitely. I do not know how one can say that the matchup is far in favor of RUG lists with a one-off Forked Bolt. It is at least even. I think it is in favour of bUrg.

:headdesk:

First of all, I know that it may sound unreal, but there are people who either tweak their deck according to their metagame, and/or who play more removal to specifically address the most annoying creature RUG may run into.
I, for one, play two Forked Bolts main, and pretty often side in Needles to really have my turn1 or turn2 answer to DRS (and Liliana) which singlehandedly and completely invalidates our tactics.
So basically instead of putting words in my mouth like you've done with a statement "I do not know how one can say that the matchup is far in favor of RUG lists with a one-off Forked Bolt." that I never said, you'd be much more better of if you just take a trip back one or two pages and look through any of my reports - and at the very least check the decklist to note that I play two FBs specifically because of DRS - and that I admit that it's pretty hard matchup that is nigh always decided by our (in)ability to get rid of their DRS that works as a wincon, threshold suppresor and most notably as a way how to circumvent our mana denial plan.
If you can't handle the DRS, you will lose, cause all of your cards are worse compared to that of BURG, so you need to stop the opponents from playing them. And because DRS fixes and acceleates their mana... wait, isn't it obvious where I'm heading?

Good luck defeating any DRS.dec without those aditional removal slots.

And to prevent any other futile arguments and another straw man burning: I'm still not saying that the mu is in our favor, and I'm still not saying that killing the elf is an auto-win.

[Sasan]

Your answer is now laid down in a rational and understandable way. It is a far better post than your one liner. That is a better base for discussions.

[Dzra]

I'm still not saying that killing the elf is an auto-win.

I'd probably go so far as to say that not killing (or otherwise incapacitating) Deathrite comes pretty close to an auto-lose.

Regardless, all this talk of RUG vs bURg doesn't seem as helpful as how both decks fair against the rest of the field. For example, I feel like bURg is much more disadvantaged against UWR Delver, but has a better MU against Shardless.

[Purgatory]

I've been running what seems to be popular in American lists right now, 2 Pierce, 1 Dismember and 3 Gitaxian Probe.

So far I really like probe.

[Sasan]

Beware of the fact that SCG Legacy opens are full of combo decks lateley. Playing less removal and more cantrip like cards (Probes) helps there. But I do not know how Jacob Wilson can survive in a midrange meta with his cutting of too much removal and without Snares.

[cheerios]

Probe builds are pretty resilient versus midrange decks based on my experience. What I don't understand is how Jacob Wilson sideboards.

[Sasan]

But why is that so? I don't get it.

[cheerios]

The information that the probes provide are a huge help in deciding whether you can overextend, play your delver or just pitch it to FOW, knowing which creatures to counter or bolt etc. Maybe it's just player preference that some players are comfortable with real counters and actual removal while others would rather know which cards to play around. Besides the information, probe builds have a faster clock than non-probe builds due to reaching threshold faster.

[Milen]

4 Rounds of Legacy

Deck:
// Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Curse Totem
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Grafdigger's Cage

R1, UR Budged Standard Deck
I felt bad for the guy as this was one of his first tournaments in Legacy. Although RUG is a not the worst matchup for him, compared sneak & show etc. Anyway I did not see too much from his deck but he was playing Frostburn Weird, Goblin Electromancer, Nivix Cyclops, Spellheart Chimera, Thoughtflare together with some burn and counters.
g1: Mongoos was stopped by a Frostburn Weird but Delver got me all the way together with some burn for reach.
-2 Probes
+2 Totems (I was thinking about Frostburn Weird), now that I think about REB would have have been way better
g2:
He had a 6/3 Spellheart Chimera which I did not have any burn for but Goyf and two Mongoose were able to finish the game once FB and Bolts cleared the way from Goblin Electromancer and Frostburn Weird.
Win, 1:0.

R2, Sneak & Show
g1: my Probed saw a hand with 2 Show&Tell, 2 Fow, Emrakul, Petal, 1 Land while I only had only a Daze and FoW. I get a goose in play but by turn 3 he has found a Sol Land and Spell Pierce.
-2 FB
-2 Bolts
+2 REB
+2 Flusterstrom
g2: I have a fast Delver, followed by 2 Goose. He is stuck on a single Volcanic Island for a while and searches for other lands. Finally he play and Ancient Tomb, I decide to wasteland his color source which was a mistake as he draws blindly a another one and plays S&T. I am unable to stop the S&T with my FoW pitching Stifle (the only blue card in my hand), as he had FoW. He drops a Griselbrand with 15 Life and draws 7. Unfortunatly I cant not race a 7/7 life linker even with 9 power on the table.
Loss, 1:1.

R3, UR Delver
g1: Play a Delver, during my upkeep I try to flip it with BS but it gets Dazed, luckly it flips blidnly. During his turn he tries to bolt my Delver but I but thanks to a Daze and a FoW it stays. The whole game is protect the delver. Lavamancer try to come into play but FB saved me twice.
-2 Probes
+2 R/T (Had also seen Young Pyromancer)
g2: The deck does what it does, Mongoose come down quick and start the beating, floowed by a Goyf which he can not deal with. He has a couple of bad draws before scooping.
Win, 2:1


R4, BUG Delver
g1: Do not remember what happened exactly but in involved active DRS, with no bolts in my hand.
-2 Probes
-2 Spell Pierce (g1 had two in hand while he was dropping creature after creature)
+3 Submerge
+1 R/T
Maybe should have brough in the Curse Totem vs the shaman.
g2: Misplayed my BS early in the game forcing my self to crack multiple fetches. I drew a lot of lands, including wasteland but my Goyf was snared, so I did not have a clock. He managed to find a Delver and flip with after a few turn while I still had no action. Finally Mongoose showed uo up, but it is hard to catch up with the delver. Once I find a Delver and set it to flip the following turn, he has a Disfigure for it and I have no time to find an answer.
Loss, 2:2.

Vs Sneak&Show make sure u have multple counters and a fast clock, wasteland Sol Lands and not color lands. Vs BUG Delver kill that shaman asap.
Also not misplay the BS and force yourself to crack multiple fetches, while you have land in your hand.
Maybe:
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Spell Snare (Against those goyfs, cause I can not dela with the once they are online).
But then it feel awfully random with only one of each. Dont want to remove the probes as I rather have a probe in hand than a Spell Snare which I might not be able to use at all.
More practice needed as I have not played Magic for at least 1.5 months.

Cheers,
Milen

[Purgatory]

I'm not sure Wasting his Volcanic was such a bad play vs Sneaky Show, but it depends a lot on what he has on hand. I did some testing against the deck yesterday and found Probe to be really good against it, for obvious reasons. Most of the games were won through a combination of Wastelands and soft counters. Information is key here, twice I managed to strand a bunch of cantrips in his hand, resulting in funny plays like Petal into Ponder into shuffle, pass.

[xfire]

Hey guys, played in a GPT this past weekend with 21 players 5 rounds of swiss with top 8. Took down a 2nd place finish with what is my favorite deck of legacy RUG. My list is below, i don't have a tournament report, sorry for that, just a comment on a few cards that this thread seems to be focused on lately. I play three probes, i think this card is the stone nuts, it provides so much valued information to develop lines of play knowing what my opponent it attempting to do. While there is the fact that drawing more than one to two in a game can be less than desirable, i don't think that its all that bad because the card can be FoW food and i have found that even though i may know most of their hand the chance to see how their draws have been and the lines they chose based on the new cards now seen is well worth it. I know some people don't like the card but i think that three is the right number for the deck, that way there is a higher chance of having the card in the early turns where is provides the most value. My second thought is that this deck should have 6 burns spells in it now to deal with the T1 DrS play, a post early said it could be one of the more powerful things and could be FoW worthy and i couldn't agree more. The decks that are cropping up with DrS are very attrition based and i think that cutting one FoW from the main deck is the way to move. There are some thoughts that this is bad since it reduces the combo match up game one, i don't think it is that detrimental to the deck; in my experience i rarely want multiple FoWs in my hand G1 blind due to the card disadvantage even in combo, i think that spell pierce and daze along with our fast clock are enough to force combo into these cards. FoW is the sacred cow and it needs to be cut, i feel that the 4th slot is better filled with something proactive such as burn or even a creature. It does eat up a side board slot but having a streamlined main deck that is focused on proactive cards feels better to me than the warm comfy feeling on knowing i have four FoW. The last thing i want to talk about and hopefully spark some useful debate on is my sideboard jace, its so greedy on the mana for this deck but in the grindy attrition games where i bring the card in i have very often hit four or more mana due to life from the loam or just flooding out. In these matches often there is a point where my opponent is not fully stabilized but is pushing the door closed on me and i think having a card like jace to blow open that "door" and provide a real late game top deck that is high value can add another layer of attack that this deck needs. Three games now i have cast this card, two in the GPT and one on MODO, my first time was in the swiss playing against shardless BUG. The board state is his underground sea and bayou are tapped, and he has a goyf, my board is four lands goyf gose with him at 10 life and me in top-deck mode. I rip jace, slam it on the table bounce his dude and bash in, he draws doesn't find a way to deal with my board and scoops for the match. The second time i cast it was against UWR delver, i have a gose and five mana thanks to Loam the past few turns, i know his hand is plow, fetch, pyroblast thanks to probe. Im just waiting on another blue card for FoW food to force jace in, i peel it slam jace and proceed to bury him in card advantage with a permanent that is not to easy to handle on top of my not to easy to handle threat. I haven't lost a game where i cast jace yet, though i was in an ahead position each time i cast it, it was during that almost getting behind point where as i said the door is not closed but im close to losing the advantage. Also have any of you guys tried young pyromancer yet, so far in my testing of that card it has been awesome, i cant say enough good things about it. In tempo matches where a few cantrips and battles over them can add up to additional points of damage through tokens is amazing and against combo i would rather be casting this card than gofy. I think that even though gofy himself is bigger, young pyromancer can generate more damage over time. Well thats it, if you read this whole thing i thank you alot lol, let me know what your thoughts on the direction of the deck are and my card choices.

2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Zuran Orb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Force of Will
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast

[deadend]

Hey guys, played in a GPT this past weekend with 21 players 5 rounds of swiss with top 8. Took down a 2nd place finish with what is my favorite deck of legacy RUG. My list is below, i don't have a tournament report, sorry for that, just a comment on a few cards that this thread seems to be focused on lately. I play three probes, i think this card is the stone nuts, it provides so much valued information to develop lines of play knowing what my opponent it attempting to do. While there is the fact that drawing more than one to two in a game can be less than desirable, i don't think that its all that bad because the card can be FoW food and i have found that even though i may know most of their hand the chance to see how their draws have been and the lines they chose based on the new cards now seen is well worth it. I know some people don't like the card but i think that three is the right number for the deck, that way there is a higher chance of having the card in the early turns where is provides the most value. My second thought is that this deck should have 6 burns spells in it now to deal with the T1 DrS play, a post early said it could be one of the more powerful things and could be FoW worthy and i couldn't agree more. The decks that are cropping up with DrS are very attrition based and i think that cutting one FoW from the main deck is the way to move. There are some thoughts that this is bad since it reduces the combo match up game one, i don't think it is that detrimental to the deck; in my experience i rarely want multiple FoWs in my hand G1 blind due to the card disadvantage even in combo, i think that spell pierce and daze along with our fast clock are enough to force combo into these cards. FoW is the sacred cow and it needs to be cut, i feel that the 4th slot is better filled with something proactive such as burn or even a creature. It does eat up a side board slot but having a streamlined main deck that is focused on proactive cards feels better to me than the warm comfy feeling on knowing i have four FoW. The last thing i want to talk about and hopefully spark some useful debate on is my sideboard jace, its so greedy on the mana for this deck but in the grindy attrition games where i bring the card in i have very often hit four or more mana due to life from the loam or just flooding out. In these matches often there is a point where my opponent is not fully stabilized but is pushing the door closed on me and i think having a card like jace to blow open that "door" and provide a real late game top deck that is high value can add another layer of attack that this deck needs. Three games now i have cast this card, two in the GPT and one on MODO, my first time was in the swiss playing against shardless BUG. The board state is his underground sea and bayou are tapped, and he has a goyf, my board is four lands goyf gose with him at 10 life and me in top-deck mode. I rip jace, slam it on the table bounce his dude and bash in, he draws doesn't find a way to deal with my board and scoops for the match. The second time i cast it was against UWR delver, i have a gose and five mana thanks to Loam the past few turns, i know his hand is plow, fetch, pyroblast thanks to probe. Im just waiting on another blue card for FoW food to force jace in, i peel it slam jace and proceed to bury him in card advantage with a permanent that is not to easy to handle on top of my not to easy to handle threat. I haven't lost a game where i cast jace yet, though i was in an ahead position each time i cast it, it was during that almost getting behind point where as i said the door is not closed but im close to losing the advantage. Also have any of you guys tried young pyromancer yet, so far in my testing of that card it has been awesome, i cant say enough good things about it. In tempo matches where a few cantrips and battles over them can add up to additional points of damage through tokens is amazing and against combo i would rather be casting this card than gofy. I think that even though gofy himself is bigger, young pyromancer can generate more damage over time. Well thats it, if you read this whole thing i thank you alot lol, let me know what your thoughts on the direction of the deck are and my card choices.

2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Zuran Orb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Force of Will
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast


1st grats on your 2ed place also some more spaces would be nice very hard to read all that lol. i would also like to try young pyr. in the main or sb it looks like a good addition to the deck

[why]

I've noticed that RUG delver is a deck with fourteen lands (where Wasteland is really just a zero-mana strip mine- I can't remember ever tapping it for mana). It's probably an awful idea, but what would Delver look like if you removed the mana denial component (Stifle, Wasteland)?

I'm imagining something like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Chain Lightning
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

I'm mentioning this as a thought experiment and because I'm building another deck with Wasteland and want to keep some version of Delver built. Is this the right amount of land for this deck? I realize I'm adding two 2-mana spells, but that's not that much- the curve can't be that far off.

This makes me really question the curve of UR delver decks, which is the other thing I was thinking of doing with this cards. The standard lists have a similar curve as the above and run as many as 19 lands that produce mana. They wont have Stifles or Wastelands due to two Price of Progress and Goblin Guide ruining those plans. This includes some versions that play 4 Young Pyromancer and 2 Price of Progress as the only spells that cost above one mana. Those decks also have some added resilience to Wasteland! Should those decks be cutting 3-4 lands, or is there something I'm missing?

[karaxu]

Cutting wasteland and just playing with 14 lands because this deck is virtually only "14 lands" is wrong.

Wasteland enables you too keep the board state in a low mana count in which helps you dictate the tempo for the game.
Wasteland is what lets you get away with playing "14 lands".

And it does tap for mana, helps you cast tarmogoyf, hardcast daze or FOW at times and stuff out of the SB.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello xfire! Thanks for your ideas!
I can't tell much about Jace. At four mana, it's so counterintuitive for our deck, otoh, I completely agree with your reasoning. Esp. when you play Loam and thus are much more able to get to midgame (and those necessary four lands) and simultaneously keep the opponents in the early gamy (as they struggle against recurring Wastelands).

Cutting Wasteland and Stifle is not a completely bad idea, but you lose the main power (or abandon the main tactic) of RUG and change the deck into something else, be it UR Delver Burn, or Moon Thresh or w/e. To put it frankly - you can't play a fair deck in Legacy, you need to be unfair and as the metagame is saturated with fetch->nonbasicland decks, Stifle and Waste ar the cards that make Thresh Can so strong choice.
Also, Waste taps for Goyf, to pay for the opposing taxing effects, etc. I wouldn't cut it, the only thing I'd ever consider is adding of a nineteenth land, which surprisingly does not need to be blue 100%.(In fact I may see anything from Island for turn1 cantrips unnafected by opposing Waste, a Forest to cast our threats, a Taiga to have either red andd green available and to dodge Choke/Extirpate.)
I guess that playing without Snare is wrong, because not having a single answer to Goyf/Ooze (and having just liited number of cards against to some extent to SFM, Confidant, Snappy, Jitte, Sylvan Library, etc.) is wrong. But I may be wrong... :)
I'm still not sure about Probe and maybe I really need to test it finally. What I dislike about it is that it forces "real" cards out of the deck and esp. with the omnipressence of DRS, I really, really ,really want mysixth Bolt. I understand the reasoning behind cuttng of FoW (namely now when Decay changed how we may or may not protect our creatures), so maybe a 3/2/1 split of FoW/GP/FB or even FoW/GP/Clique might be viable. The first one is good if your main concern is DRS, the other one is good if your main concern is combo/control or overload of creatures against opposing removal. moreover, Clique flies and thus avoids stalls; it also surprise kills Jace/Lili/players.

[Hisa]

So, I've been birding this thread for a while and I figured I should make a contribution.

I was hot on this deck ages ago, before and right after delver got printed. I bounced off onto High Tide and Hive Mind and some other stuff. I ended up back at Canadian Thresh because of how streamlined the deck is. Lots of agro / tempo decks have been jamming cutesy stuff (snapcaster, DRS, Young Pyromancer), while this deck strips away that fakakta bullshit and executes with no frills. Delver, Goose, Goyf, resource denial and reach.

Anyway, I decided I was going to go to GP DC because legacy GPs are super fun and DC is a reasonable distance from me. I started playtesting pretty intensely about two months ago, starting with one of the lists Pikula t8ed with at an SCG Open.

My list:


4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

SB

3 Submerge
2 Rough Tumble
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Life From The Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt


I played in a twenty-ish person GPT last Saturday.

RND 1: Agro Loam
g1: He messes up a Devastating Dreams and goose / threshold and I win off it.
g2: I counter his Countryside Crusher and submerge his Knight of the Reliquary and win.
WIN

RND 2: ANT
g1: I paris to six, and keep a hand with not enough disruption and lots of pressure. He has tons of time to win, and loses the game with 19 mana in rituals / Lion's Eye Diamonds in his hand and no tutor.
g2: My hand is bonkers, he has no chance
WIN

RND 3: Jund
g1: He doesn't play around anything with his goyfs, which is good for him, because I can't deal with them.
g2: I keep a hand that is good against creatures (submerge, rough, other red spells) and he is on the Punishing Fire and Liliana of the Veil plan. I can't find a goose before I get murdered.
LOSS Note: This match hasn't actually been that bad for me in playtest

RND 4: Death and Taxes
g1: I win on the play by flying over his dudes before he can get a batterskull active.
g2: I lose in a game that is not really close.
g3: I finish the game at 19. Sulfur Elemental three for ones him.
WIN

T8: Shardless BUG
g1: I win on the draw in a close game. Abusing BUGs shitty lands and light removal suite is the key to this match.
g2: He has 2 goyfs and I can't find submerge.
g3: WARNING: Bad beats story. -- I look at my hand (2 Delver, Bolt, Ponder, Volc, Waste, Fetch) and know I'm going to win. I play volc delver pass. He plays bayou DRS. Delver doesn't flip (1), I draw a delver, waste, bolt attack. He plays a land and passes. Delver doesn't flip (2) I play fetch, Delver Delver, swing 1. He plays land, Baleful Strix, passes. Delver doesn't flip (3) I attack, he trades strix for a delver. I ponder, shuffle, pass. -- The game progresses, my delvers finally flip in the fifth try (showing a stifle). I have two flipped delvers, three cards (including the stifle) in my hand. He has DRS and three untapped lands. I attack, he goes "... You have a stifle in your hand, oh crap". He brainstorms, hits abrupt decay, goes to 3. On his turn he attempts to volrath's stronghold a strix on top of his deck. I stifle. He stares at his board for a while, taps two lands and DRS casts a Shardless Agent with 1 Abrupt Decay as his out (I have a daze for strix). Obviously he hits it. Game goes downhill from there, including and Extirpate on my volc in a play I should have read.
LOSS

I'm really happy with the list, though I need to work on the sideboard. There are some matches I feel like a dog in, but they mostly get way better post board (I'm 14-4 in post board matches vs the Maverick that won the GPT). This week I need to test a lot of Delver mirrors, because I haven't played it nearly enough and I need to get the sideboard the way I want it.

On that note, what, besides Life from the Loam, is good in the mirror?

[Water_Wizard]

On that note, what, besides Life from the Loam, is good in the mirror?

Generally, running the 19th land and Submerges from the board is enough.

If you want to go one step further, run Life from the Loam.

If you want to go even further, run Mind Harness and/or Threads of Disloyalty.

Dismember is also good for killing opposing Goyfs.

Tormod's Crypt can shrink their Geese. Wasteland/Surgical can take them off a color, but it's cute. For that reason, people were running a Taiga about a year ago when RUG was very popular.

[Exuberance]

Curfew is probably the only realistic answer to True-Name Nemesis, and even then, it will probably always be difficult to set up a board state where TNN is their only creature, AND you have counter magic for when it comes back down. Seems pretty rough. Aberration or bust, then? Alternatively, play many, many Tarmogoyfs.

EDIT: Oh wait, I suppose that Engineered Explosives is an out, albeit a slow one.

[SirTylerGalt]

Curfew is probably the only realistic answer to True-Name Nemesis, and even then, it will probably always be difficult to set up a board state where TNN is their only creature, AND you have counter magic for when it comes back down. Seems pretty rough. Aberration or bust, then? Alternatively, play many, many Tarmogoyfs.

EDIT: Oh wait, I suppose that Engineered Explosives is an out, albeit a slow one.

You can also cast Skullcrack when a TNN blocks one of your creatures. That way, since damage can't be prevented, the TNN will die to combat damage, even though he has "protection" from you :)

[BKclassic]

Just to comment on a few topics:

-I haven't tried Jace yet but it seems like it could be pretty good, especially with Life from the Loam in the SB. It seems exciting to turn the tables and play a card that's a blowout in the midgame instead of losing to cards like Jace. While the versatility of Jace can't be denied, Sylvan Library seems like a similar effect for much less mana.

-It is irritating Jace doesn't deal with True-Name Nemesis, but I think TNN is mostly going to be a bust. It seems like the card could fit into BUG Delver and Mefolk, but that's about it.

-I think Xfire's list is pretty much perfect except I would find it hard to justify running Zuran Orb before Grafdigger's Cage.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Hisa, thanks a lot for the report! It's sad that you've lost to bad luck in R4, but well, that's Magic... :frown:
Water_Wizard is right about the sb cards, I can't remeber anything else that one can use for the mirror. But sadly these cards are too narrow and I wouldn't play them unless my meta would be 50%+ of RUG. Also, REB is pretty powerful, but that's obvious, am I right?

[Purgatory]

Played the stock list (3 Probe, 2 Pierce, 1 Dismember in the flex slots) to a 3-0-2 finish today.

Match 1: Hive Mind.
Apparently he borrowed the deck from someone, haven't seen this one in a long time. I put loads of pressure on him game one, he manages to resolve SnT into Hive Mind with me having lethal on the board, and he goes Probe->Blue Pact. He is out of gas and I have the Stifle and swing. Game two he plays Red Pact to kill a Goyf of mine, my only threat and after a Flusterstorm war, I manage to Stifle his only way of getting red mana.

Match 2: UWr DelverBlade
I win game one easily by wrecking his manabase. Both the other games are grindy as all hell but Mongoose is great. I lose game two with lethal on board, and I grind out game 3 with a Mongoose and no less than three Goyfs.

Match 3: Elves!
Don't remember much of game one, but he drew Progenitus off the top on his first draw step. I fly over his elves for lethal with two Delvers with him able to take me to one the turn before. I board 3 Submerge and 2 Roughs and in game two I draw all four bolts and two Submerges.

Match 4,5 ID

QF: Lost two rather uninteresting games to OmniShow, I played poorly and drew poorly. Not much to say.


My sideboard:
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Interesting sb, I see you are ready for LD and you really don't wanna lose to gy based decks. Were the three slots needed? Was the room full of Dredge/Reanimator/PiF?

[ShiftyKapree]

If you guys were going to be playing in Grand Prix DC tomorrow, what you play in your sideboard?

[Sasan]

Here we go:

Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough // Tumble
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Submerge

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you guys were going to be playing in Grand Prix DC tomorrow, what you play in your sideboard?

I never been to GP, but I expect that one can't play there without GY hate. :frown: Thus my usual sb would need some tweaks...

2 Rough/Tumble (humans, merfolks, zombies, goblins and elves)
3 Submerge (Goyf/KotR fights)
1 Krosan Grip (CBalance, BSkull)
1 Ancient Grudge (equipments, Shardless, occasional Affinity/Chalice)
1 Flusterstorm (S&T, combo in general)
2 Pyroblast (dtto + Delver.dec and Folks/U control)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (grave based decks + PiF combo)
2 Pithing Needle (mostly for DRS, Liliana and SDT, good against random stuff like Maze or Port)
1 Sulfur Elemental (white creature decks and attrition wars)

I'd love to squeeze on LftL somewhere. I hate to lose to Pox. It's good in mirror, too.

[Tormod]

If you guys were going to be playing in Grand Prix DC tomorrow, what you play in your sideboard?

1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 REB
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Rancor
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Gilded Drake
1 Pithing Needle

[Bed Decks Palyer]

1 Rancor


:confused: What am I missing?

[Tormod]

:confused: What am I missing?

You bring it in vs TNN to push the damage race so blocking your goyf is unprofitable. Its an answer that adds to the tempo strategy, vs having to use cards to deal with TNN that cost you tempo.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You bring it in vs TNN to push the damage race so blocking your goyf is unprofitable. Its an answer that adds to the tempo strategy, vs having to use cards to deal with TNN that cost you tempo.
Oh so. What I realized is that it's a good card for Goyf vs. Goyf stalls. Sounds reasonable.
However, I fear that our mere eight creatures might be too low for Rancor, not to mention the usual danger of two-for-one ourselves.

[Tormod]

Oh so. What I realized is that it's a good card for Goyf vs. Goyf stalls. Sounds reasonable.
However, I fear that our mere eight creatures might be too low for Rancor, not to mention the usual danger of two-for-one ourselves.

4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm says we can

[Purgatory]

Interesting sb, I see you are ready for LD and you really don't wanna lose to gy based decks. Were the three slots needed? Was the room full of Dredge/Reanimator/PiF?

It's Sweden, so there's always a number of combo decks in the room. I didn't see any Dredge, but a couple of Reanimators. Extraction doubles as funny hate for the OmniShow decks that runs Intuition.

I failed in the main event, going 4-2 and missing T8, but it was fun nonetheless. The decks feels really solid.

My two losses were vs 4C goodstuff.dec, where I failed to draw the proper amount of Bolts for his elves and Wasteland, and my second loss was against Shardless, where I think I made some mistakes and he had great cascades at time which tighter tipped the scale to him.

But hey, I won the Modern tournament the same day and got a whole bunch of Theros packs which me and my mates minimaster'd while we waited for the T8 to play :smile:

[personalbackfire]

I went 7-2, getting knocked out of contention in rd 7, of Legacy Champs yesterday.
My loses were to Death & Taxes and TES.

Maindeck was pretty standard but I played 3 Stifle and 3 Pierce, with 3 Probe, and 1 Fire/Ice.

My board was:
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Sulfur Elemental

I'm planning on playing this at GP DC but might switch a few cards. I'm thinking of upping the Pyroblasts to 3 in the board over the Flust to help deal with True Name Nemesis. I'm also thinking of adding a Krosan Grip to help against Counterbalance.

Other thoughts, that would need testing, is playing 1 True Name main, and 1 in the board, though I'm not sold on him yet in this deck.

[ShiftyKapree]

I think my current sideboard for this deck if I decide to run it at Grand Prix DC would be 1 Life from the loam 4 submerge 2 REB, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Rough/tumble, 1 Zuran Orb, 3 Surgical Extraction. Debating on 2 Cursed Totems as well. I'm debating on this and Shardless Bug. The Zuran Orb is there for mostly burn and control matchups with the one Life from the loam.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think my current sideboard for this deck if I decide to run it at Grand Prix DC would be 1 Life from the loam 4 submerge 2 REB, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Rough/tumble, 1 Zuran Orb, 3 Surgical Extraction. Debating on 2 Cursed Totems as well. I'm debating on this and Shardless Bug. The Zuran Orb is there for mostly burn and control matchups with the one Life from the loam.

I'm a great fan of Needle. Seriously, your turn1 answer to DRS that works as a Liliana hoser? I take two. :smile:

[HammafistRoob]

Anybody see the SCG coverage of Andrew Murch against Eric Froelich on ANT? I believe Andrew punted hard by never casting the Flusterstorm in hand, did I miss something?

[BKclassic]

I went 7-2, getting knocked out of contention in rd 7, of Legacy Champs yesterday.
My loses were to Death & Taxes and TES.

Maindeck was pretty standard but I played 3 Stifle and 3 Pierce, with 3 Probe, and 1 Fire/Ice.

My board was:
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Sulfur Elemental

I'm planning on playing this at GP DC but might switch a few cards. I'm thinking of upping the Pyroblasts to 3 in the board over the Flust to help deal with True Name Nemesis. I'm also thinking of adding a Krosan Grip to help against Counterbalance.

Other thoughts, that would need testing, is playing 1 True Name main, and 1 in the board, though I'm not sold on him yet in this deck.

How was Fire/Ice?

[matunos]

It is irritating Jace doesn't deal with True-Name Nemesis, but I think TNN is mostly going to be a bust. It seems like the card could fit into BUG Delver and Mefolk, but that's about it.


I predict TNN will replace Geist of St. Traft in many UWR Delverblade lists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I predict TNN will replace Geist of St. Traft in many UWR Delverblade lists.

Geist is faster. It needs an open road, but then it's a three to four turns clock.
TNN is slower, it's a six turns clock at the best, otoh it doesn't care of what's standing in its way.
I'm not sure if the cards are 100% interchangeble.

[Sasan]

RUG has won the SCG Open LA and has proven that it has a staying power. No need to worry about TNN.

The event coverage of the Eternal Weekend sums it up in a great way:

"...Potentially a powerhouse, True-Name Nemesis is going to be one of the biggest question marks this tournament. It is extraordinarily resilient, susceptible to only global removal spells and sacrifice effects. From the moment it hits play, it is a virtual Lightning Bolt a turn, which is capable of quickly ending games. That said, it's also a creature, and one that costs three, to boot. In Legacy, when people tap three mana for a creature, it's usually Griselbrand or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Paying three mana for something that doesn't effectively end the game on the spot is a risky proposition, yet True-Name Nemesis still has people buzzing.

In the proper shell, the card can be absolutely devastating. So far this weekend, I have seen it in Stoneblade, Shardless BUG, and, of course, Merfolk. It serves as a wonderful clock for control decks, ending the game in short order once the game has been locked up...


Lebedowicz also tested out the newest addition to Legacy: True-Name Nemesis. It has been quite a divisive topic thus far this weekend, as it seems just a touch too slow in many matchups to really shine. It has been taking the place of two-drops for much of the weekend, which has led to more than one lost match. As Hall-of-Famer Randy Buehler said during his commentary, "If you aren't impacting the board on turn two, it's really hard to win in Legacy."..."

Conclusion: Do not bellieve the hype!

[Purgatory]

I think TNN will be awesome in the right shell, probably with Deathrite, but especially with Stoneforge Mystic.

I lost to it this weekend, when it was played in a 4c shell with the usual suspects, and the games I lost were games where I both failed to draw Wastelands before he hit 4 mana, and landed TNN + equipment.

[lavafrogg]

RUG is way too good. Everyone is hyping TNN and UWR Delver and it just flies under the radar to a huge win. Best deck in the format.

[Sasan]

Yep RUG and bUrg are the best decks in the format :)

[lavafrogg]

Yep RUG and bUrg are the best decks in the format :)

I disagree on bUrg being on the same page as RUG. I would put bUrg with all of the other tier one decks that exist it is super greedy and doesn't have nearly enough upside over a standard RUG list.

[Sasan]

I disagree on bUrg being on the same page as RUG. I would put bUrg with all of the other tier one decks that exist it is super greedy and doesn't have nearly enough upside over a standard RUG list.

Perhaps I can prove you wrong. Have you tested bUrg? It has a far better midrange matchup and a bit better combo matchup than RUG. If you like we can play some games on cockatrice. The argument that the deck is greedy is not true - only on paper it looks greedy. But I agree that both decks share the same core and are brothers in that sense. It is probably the best to not start an off topic here.

[lavafrogg]

True story, I will pm you a response when I get to a computer later tonight. My phone just won't cut it and this is not the place for discussion on bUrg.

[ShiftyKapree]

I'm a great fan of Needle. Seriously, your turn1 answer to DRS that works as a Liliana hoser? I take two. :smile:

I don't think needle is that great because when you needle a des it's most likely gonna follow up with an abrupt decaay.

How is everyone's feelings on Git Probe over Forked Bolt? Idk how I feel about playing it, if I do I'm def switching fetch lands in to look like I'm playing storm to take them off guard

[SirTylerGalt]

I don't think needle is that great because when you needle a des it's most likely gonna follow up with an abrupt decaay.

How is everyone's feelings on Git Probe over Forked Bolt? Idk how I feel about playing it, if I do I'm def switching fetch lands in to look like I'm playing storm to take them off guard

They don't always have Decay, and I'd rather have them Decay my Needle than my Goyf / Delver :)

I brought in my 1-of Pithing Needle against BUG at the BoM 9 Trial on Sunday (I was playing UWr Stoneblade). He had two useless Deathrite Shamans for 4-5 turns. He then played a 3rd one, and I just destroyed them all (and the Needle) with an E.E. during my next turn (in case he had Abrupt Decay :) ).

[Purgatory]

How is everyone's feelings on Git Probe over Forked Bolt? Idk how I feel about playing it, if I do I'm def switching fetch lands in to look like I'm playing storm to take them off guard

I played this list this weekend in two different sanctioned tournaments with ~35 and ~50 players respectively:

8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember


Sideboard is posted above, but I switched around some stuff for the second tournament, and here's how I did:

Round 1 - 4c Goodstuff.dec
Game one he Probes me turn one, lays a Tundra, Ponders and shuffles. I Probe back and see a hand full of goodies (Swords, Stoneforge, Spell Pierce etc.) but only an Underground Sea, so I Waste him (my hand was 2 Wasteland, fetch, Delver, Stifle, Ponder and something irrelevant). He plays the Sea and I waste that too and by the time he draws a fetch I have a flipped Delver in play and a Stifle on hand. In games two and three, however, I fail to draw a single Wasteland and he just plays TNN and kills me with equipment.

Round 2 - 12post
Game one he just plays lands, a needle for Wasteland and then casts Emrakul circa turn six. I have nothing on that. In game row and three he draws rather poorly, he takes a mulligan to five in game three, and my creatures kill him before he can do anything. Wastelands and Pyroblast keep him from getting Titans into play. Probes were excellent, letting me know when to hold up Spell Pierce mana etc.

Round 3 - GWb Maverick
He resolves two knights in game one and just wins, but I control both his manabase and his creatures in games two and three. Pretty close games, but Delver kills him in both games after I bolt the Scryb Ranger.

Round 4 - Shardless BUG
I lose in two games and they're both really grindy, which obviously favours him. He has Liliana all the time and I see no bolts, and he does ridiculous things like playing Baleful Strix and drawing another Baleful Strix, and cascading into Abrupt Decay blindly for my 6/7 Goyf. My opponent played really well, so I'm not bitter, but I think the matchup ought to be fairer than the games were.

Round 5 - 12post
Since I'm X-2, I'm out of contention, but my opponent is paired down and on X-1-1, and still in the running. We play anyway, and the match is similar to the one I played against 12post earlier. I lose game one to Spaghetti Monsters and then win game two on Wasteland on Cloudpost and Stifle on Expedition Map, and another Stifle on Eye of Ugin, which otherwise would let him stabilise. Game three, he mulligans once or twice and it's not really close. His first two lands, both Cloudposts, are Wastelanded, which buys me a lot of time. With lethal on the board, I scoop to him anyway, since I can't T8 on X-2, and he is a familiar face and a nice guy.

Round 6 - Jund
Norwegian player who almost stabilises against me game one, but I have a flipped Delver and two bolts who make the Elf irrelevant. In game two, he mulligans to five, but lands a Sylvan Library turn two, which I can't do anything about. He tries to LoamWaste me out of the game, but I have enough soft counters and Goyfs to kill him before that happens.


Overall, a 3-3 result (or rather 4-2) is far from impressive, but it was the culmination of a long weekend of playing Magic, and I don't blame the deck at all. Probe was great against almost everyone, since at worst it's a free card for Threshold, a +1/+1 for Goyf and lots of information. It was at its peak against the OmniShow and Hive Mind decks I faced on Friday though.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

on Needle: Yes, I'd much rather see the Needle decayed than my Goyf. Also, once the DRS is pithed it's much more easier to keep them of Decay mana, or at least severely hamper their ability to play at your pace and just fly/trample them over beofre they stabilize.

@ Purgatory: Thanks for the report!

[PhanTom_lt]

Finished 32nd in main event of BoM with RUG Delver. Pretty amazing event, had lots of fun, awkward and amazing rules interactions, got to get crushed on camera vs Pierre Somen, but didn't mind much, the matchup is really hard. Really looking forward to the next one. I'll probably write a report after getting some rest.

[Sasan]

Finished 32nd in main event of BoM with RUG Delver. Pretty amazing event, had lots of fun, awkward and amazing rules interactions, got to get crushed on camera vs Pierre Somen, but didn't mind much, the matchup is really hard. Really looking forward to the next one. I'll probably write a report after getting some rest.

Great. I saw your match versus Pierre and I think you had some underwhelming draws, so the matchup is not thaaat bad as it looked on camera.

Has anyone heard of Jacob Wilson and his approach to the new TNN meta? I only saw that he runs Force Spike in the slot of Fire/Ice now.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Force Spike is pretty interesting, but I fear that five Daze effects might be far too many.

[Hisa]

Great. I saw your match versus Pierre and I think you had some underwhelming draws, so the matchup is not thaaat bad as it looked on camera.

Has anyone heard of Jacob Wilson and his approach to the new TNN meta? I only saw that he runs Force Spike in the slot of Fire/Ice now.


He was testing Force Spike in a ChannelFireball video. He also brought in Clique in a match where he also cut two wastelands. OTOH it worked, so what do I know.

[KobeBryan]

How useful are diverts in the spell pierce slots?

what about spell snare? how useful is that.

[Sasan]

Spell Snare is highly underplayed. It deals with all problem cards of the format that are a pain in the ass in game 1. Definitely better than Force Spike.

[KobeBryan]

Thanks

I'm running the standard deck with 2 forked bolt and 2 spell snares

my sideboard is as follows

3 diverts
2 sulfur elemental
1 grafdiggers
2 pyroblasts
3 submerge
1 life from the loam
2 rough //tumble
1 ancient grudge

1. DO you guys think its a good idea to run 2 sulfur elementals since I already have 2 forked bolts in md?

2. Do you guys think i should run the 3 diverts. I just can't seem to beat BUG decks.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I tried Diverts for a tournament or two and I was so unsatisfied that I never returned to them. You can't see them in any decklist, so it seems they're crappy. For Divert to work, you need it in your opening hand, it's too late trying divert something when they have several open mana. This means you need three slots devoted to the card which even may not be that back breaking, cause paying :2: is not completely impossible.
Otoh, diverting Thoughtseize, Hymn or Decay is sweet, but then, what are you going to cut for it? I'd go as far as to sb out all the FoWs (and maybe Dazes) with the idea that all the cards I draw are either threats (creatues or Bolts), answers that immediatelly affect the board state (Submerge, Rough, Needle, Elemental, w/e) or at least they're "counters" that bring CA (like in case of diverting Hymn) and keep the opponent of balance and directly threaten their permanents (diverting Decay).
But still - Divert is bad, imho. And there must be a reason why nobody plays the card.

[Purgatory]

Spell Snare is highly underplayed. It deals with all problem cards of the format that are a pain in the ass in game 1. Definitely better than Force Spike.

Which are these "problem cards" you're referring to? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely asking.

[Isre Morn]

@ TNN: cements itself in Stoneforge-lists and Merfolk (lord-effects)

I don't like Spell Snare preboard atm. I often had times where it clocked up my hand in games, where i had no use/target for it - so i shifted to the gitaxian-build, where i'm pretty happy so far with. Of Cource I see the advantages against all the typical meta-problemcards. All told it's a metacall or individual player's preference choice - but never dead so far like divert. This card's benefit is just to narrow for occupying SB-slots imho.

@ 2x Sulfur Elemental:
I would only run two copies if D&T is hyping the environment. One copy is duty, it just beats Maverick, D&T, Ling.Souls so sweet.

@ PURGATORY based on SpellSnare:
Stoneforge, Bob, Goofy, RiP, Thalia, Ooze, gaddock teeg, Counter Balance, Baleful Strix are the vip common cards to mention. list can be widen out.

[hiski]

Which are these "problem cards" you're referring to? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely asking.
Stoneforge Mystic, Rest in Peace, Dark Confidant, Goyf and Counterbalance are very good targets. I think Deathrite Shaman has changed the metagame from casting cost 2 threats into casting cost 3 and 4.

[Sasan]

@ TNN: cements itself in Stoneforge-lists and Merfolk (lord-effects)

I don't like Spell Snare preboard atm. I often had times where it clocked up my hand in games, where i had no use/target for it - so i shifted to the gitaxian-build, where i'm pretty happy so far with. Of Cource I see the advantages against all the typical meta-problemcards. All told it's a metacall or individual player's preference choice - but never dead so far like divert. This card's benefit is just to narrow for occupying SB-slots imho.

@ 2x Sulfur Elemental:
I would only run two copies if D&T is hyping the environment. One copy is duty, it just beats Maverick, D&T, Ling.Souls so sweet.

@ PURGATORY based on SpellSnare:
Stoneforge, Bob, Goofy, RiP, Thalia, Ooze, gaddock teeg, Counter Balance, Baleful Strix are the vip common cards to mention. list can be widen out.

I want to add Chalice=1 and Hymn.
I agree on Divert. It is never in your hand when you need it. Sometimes you need a specific boardstate for it to work (for example a creature that can take the decay).

[Blaze22]

1. DO you guys think its a good idea to run 2 sulfur elementals since I already have 2 forked bolts in md?

2. Do you guys think i should run the 3 diverts. I just can't seem to beat BUG decks.

1. Sulfur elemental is a great card, I would never play less that 2 copies! it comes in against a LOT of decks

2. I tested with both divert and misdirection and I must say the latter is way better. I used to play a couple in side for a long time, they're pretty nice against bug. being able to redirect discard spells, removals and ancestral visions is big game against them! but if you're really struggling against bug lists I suggest to play 2x Compost in side, I tested them and they're superb.



Oh btw, last night I attended at the usual 30+ people monthly local tournament and this time I managed to finish undefeated 5-0 and 1st place, winning an off-centered tropical island!!! :cool:

My matchups were: 12post, BUG delver, UW feat. true-name nemesis (!!!), All spells, and Sneak & show in the finals. Sadly I have no time to write a full report this time, but all I can say is: thought scour is the best flex-slot card ever for this deck, I finally accomplished my dream of submerging a goyf and scour it away, and it has been game-defining. :wink:

I changed my list a bit from the last time, replacing the main deck sylvan library with a snapcaster (it behaved very well!) and cutting 2 compost from sb for 1 needle (awesome) and 1 life from the loam (I've never actually drawn it, but i guess it would have been nice). If you have any questions about this event/card choices I'll be glad to answer! ;) RUG rules!!!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ Blaze22: Congrats on your finish!

[Sasan]

Congrats :)

A suggestion somehow: The reason I run Izzet Charm in the flex slot is that it is a Thought Scour, Spell Pierce and Removal tool in one freaking card. Perhaps you can try Izzet instead of your one-off Thought Scour.

[Blaze22]

Congrats :)

A suggestion somehow: The reason I run Izzet Charm in the flex slot is that it is a Thought Scour, Spell Pierce and Removal tool in one freaking card. Perhaps you can try Izzet instead if your one-off Thought Scour.

Thank you! :)
I acutally play 2 copies, my flex slots are:

2x thought scour
1x snapcaster mage
1x tarfire

About the izzet charm, yeah some time ago I thought it could be nice, but 2 mana seemed a lot compared to 1, so I didn't test it... but I could definitely try it now, perhaps in place of a scour... at that point though I would also replace a pierce with a snare, 'cause izzet acts as a second pierce... yeah I'll give it a shot this week!

[Sasan]

Thank you! :)
I acutally play 2 copies, my flex slots are:

2x thought scour
1x snapcaster mage
1x tarfire

About the izzet charm, yeah some time ago I thought it could be nice, but 2 mana seemed a lot compared to 1, so I didn't test it... but I could definitely try it now, perhaps in place of a scour... at that point though I would also replace a pierce with a snare, 'cause izzet acts as a second pierce... yeah I'll give it a shot this week!

Good idea ;)

What is your list?

[Blaze22]

Good idea ;)

What is your list?

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire

1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

It worked pretty well so far :)

[Sasan]

Ok you are not on the Jacob Wilson/Probe hype train. I wondered how you magaged to have that much flex slots. This explains it.

[Blaze22]

Ok you are not on the Jacob Wilson/Probe hype train. I wondered how you magaged to have that much flex slots. This explains it.

hahaha you're right, as I stated earlier somewhere in this forum, I think probe is not optimal in this deck for a number of reasons:

1. unlike the other decks that play it we have no added value like cabal therapy, young pyromancer or the fact that we're actually winning that turn (like combo's)

2. we're not the only ones to receive informations, the opponent receives them too because he knows that we know some of the cards in his hand. He will eventually draw a number of cards and at that point he'll be able to exploit the fact that we only partially know his hand and gain strategic advantage.

3. The life loss is actually non-irrelevant! *

4. The card cantrips and has such a little effect that it's like playing with a 57 cards deck. this actually destroys the tight math beneath our deck, because in proportion it's like playing with 19 lands instead of 18, and so on...


*I just managed to survive an emrakul attack at 2 life after a couple of fetches and a force and I eventually won the game. imagine that scenario in a probe-game...

[Sasan]

hahaha you're right, as I stated earlier somewhere in this forum, I think probe is not optimal in this deck for a number of reasons:

1. unlike the other decks that play it we have no added value like cabal therapy, young pyromancer or the fact that we're actually winning that turn (like combo's)

2. we're not the only ones to receive informations, the opponent receives them too because he knows that we know some of the cards in his hand. He will eventually draw a number of cards and at that point he'll be able to exploit the fact that we only partially know his hand and gain strategic advantage.

3. The life loss is actually non-irrelevant! *

4. The card cantrips and has such a little effect that it's like playing with a 57 cards deck. this actually destroys the tight math beneath our deck, because in proportion it's like playing with 19 lands instead of 18, and so on...


*I just managed to survive an emrakul attack at 2 life after a couple of fetches and a force and I eventually won the game. imagine that scenario in a probe-game...

This. Here in Germany no one understands the Probe hype due to the reasons you stated.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Also, it's really nice to have that information on opponent hand... esp. when they lay down DRS/Hierarch/MoR and you just stare at Probe knowing that there are just four bolts in your deck and that on their next turn they'll get out of manascrew... :rolleyes:
I don't like Snareless builds. Not having a single card against Goyf, and be limited in how you may fight Ooze, Confidant, SFM, SCM, RIP, IT, LDV, BW, CB, CotV, w/e is not the way I love to play. I'd never leave my house without at least one Snare... and I even tried 4-Pierces-0-Snares build to crush the combo/control meta and it was awful. Cause know what - I met three Goyf.dec in a row.

[Purgatory]

Also, it's really nice to have that information on opponent hand... esp. when they lay down DRS/Hierarch/MoR and you just stare at Probe knowing that there are just four bolts in your deck and that on their next turn they'll get out of manascrew... :rolleyes:
I don't like Snareless builds. Not having a single card against Goyf, and be limited in how you may fight Ooze, Confidant, SFM, SCM, RIP, IT, LDV, BW, CB, CotV, w/e is not the way I love to play. I'd never leave my house without at least one Snare... and I even tried 4-Pierces-0-Snares build to crush the combo/control meta and it was awful. Cause know what - I met three Goyf.dec in a row.

This is the reason why I played Dismember as my fifth removal.

I agree with all the points above, and I'm not saying Probe is god's gift to RUG, but it did over perform in the two small tournaments that I have tried it in. The information and the Sorceryness of it was awesome.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This is the reason why I played Dismember as my fifth removal.

I agree with all the points above, and I'm not saying Probe is god's gift to RUG, but it did over perform in the two small tournaments that I have tried it in. The information and the Sorceryness of it was awesome.

I'd still play at least one Snare even if I'd use Dismember.
Dismember doesn't stop RiP, IT or similar stuff. It kills dudes for the loss of four life.
Snare doesn't kill resolved Goyf and can't be played of Wasteland.

[hiski]

The main question behind Spell Pierce or Snare is that what does Snare counter that Pierce will not and vise versa.

I personally prefer Pierce because it fights combo decks very nicely and is good at protecting our beaters.

Snare on the other hand handles enemy Goyfs well and other problematic creatures. Snare is also average top deck when you don't have any beaters on the table and you're digging for them. Pierce is kind of terrible when you don't have clock on the battlefield/in your hand.

Neither one of then can't deal whtg Deathrite Shaman or Arupt Decay which is very sad.

[Sasan]

If you can live without Probes try my list that is tuned for the expected new meta.

It has a chance versus everything.



Deck: Sasans Canadian.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells:31
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Izzet Charm
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough // Tumble
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Submerge



3 Goyfs is the right number as you do not want to lay it down prematurely. Skilled players know when to drop their Goyfs. I have 3 Snares and 2 Pierce effects, 7 removal spells and a diverse sideboard. If needed he 12th creature comes from the board (TNN).

[lavafrogg]

God I love that izzet charm.

What are you aiming to kill with the dismembers? I have always found them to be a good board card if you are into that kind of thing. What is the advantage over forked bolt, fire ice or even more izzet charms?

[Ziveeman]

God I love that izzet charm.

What are you aiming to kill with the dismembers? I have always found them to be a good board card if you are into that kind of thing. What is the advantage over forked bolt, fire ice or even more izzet charms?

Opposing Tarmogoyfs mostly. I did kill a Griselbrand with it once too :D

[Sasan]

Batterskull token:

A highly recommended play :-) and no one uses Dismember in that way. Plus: Goyf, Tombstalker, Shaman, Thalia..all creatures of the format that FB cannot hit. But if you are afraid of the life loss and only 3 Goyfs in the list you can beef things up by playing 1 Dismember and 1 Tarfire.

[Blitzkreuz]

Hey Guys, I am following this thread for quite a while and enjoy reading it daily (btw thx to beddecksplayer for the idea with needles in the sb, my opponents were so surprised in the tournees I attended ;) )

So every once in a while I come in a situation like this:

You have the perfect Hand, like Stifle, Delver, Force, Bolt, 1 random card and a Ponder plus exactly one Land.

It is the first game against my opponent and I dont know what he plays. Would you keep it? And if, would you play Delver turn 1 or ponder for the hope of another Land.

Everytime I am in a situation like that, I keep the hand with the most strange feeling and fear of a opposing turn 1 Wasteland. Furthermore I always start with a Delver, because i think creating Tempo is important.

How would you guys decide?


Regards,
Blitzkreuz

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey Guys, I am following this thread for quite a while and enjoy reading it daily (btw thx to beddecksplayer for the idea with needles in the sb, my opponents were so surprised in the tournees I attended ;) )

So every once in a while I come in a situation like this:

You have the perfect Hand, like Stifle, Delver, Force, Bolt, 1 random card and a Ponder plus exactly one Land.

It is the first game against my opponent and I dont know what he plays. Would you keep it? And if, would you play Delver turn 1 or ponder for the hope of another Land.

Everytime I am in a situation like that, I keep the hand with the most strange feeling and fear of a opposing turn 1 Wasteland. Furthermore I always start with a Delver, because i think creating Tempo is important.

How would you guys decide?


Regards,
Blitzkreuz
Hello Blitzkreutz, welcome onboard! :)

I like the Needle and I'm a big fan and proponent of it. Nice thing is that it stops several DRS at once and unlike removal, it stops their future draws. Bad thing is that it may be removed, but well... better Needle than Goyf as we all agreed. ;)

On your question - it's pretty hard to tell, but I'd definitely wouldn't lead with Delver.
Either you keep Stifle mana ready for Waste/fetch, or you should immediatelly Ponder for another land.
Delver alone does very little in this scenario, and if they'll cut you of your only land, the game will be over pretty fast.

[Sasan]

Turn 1 Land --> find land and start your game on turn 2

[Blitzkreuz]

Thanks for the fast replies :)

But you two would definitely keep such a hand? Even at the risk of finding no further Land with Ponder?

[Sasan]

Yep as RUG Delver nearly always wins if you can keep
the full hand without mulligans. RUG Delver is not a mulligan friendly deck. Your cantrip action will get you a good hand. So unless the starting hand is not 4 lands or no lands always keep if it is 1 land plus cantrip or 2 lands. Even the 4 land hand can be kept if you have cantrips in your opener.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Also, mulliganing away such a pretty seven just to open a Wasteland-only or zero-cantrip hand? No thanks, never! :smile:

[deadend]

has any thought of running 1 of each blue fetch land and 4 wooded foothills to play a kind of mind game with people? just a thought

Capitalization and punctuation are required when posting on these boards. Please use them in the future. Thanks. -zilla

[Bed Decks Palyer]

has any thought of running 1 of each blue fetch land and 4 wooded foothills to play a kind of mind game with people? just a thought
Depends.
If you play solely in lgs where everybody knows you, it won't help. For a bigger tournament you may try it, because it doesn't hurt. "Strand, go" or "Foothills, go" is the least Stifle-telegraphing opening ever* and with Foothills you may even trick them into thinking that you're piloting Jund, Elves/Goblins/burn... or even Zoo.
But mostly this doesn't matter. Ppl are used to these tricks.

*) Except for Swamp, One With Nothing, go. This leaves no doubt that you're not going to Stifle anything.

[Tormod]

has any thought of running 1 of each blue fetch land and 4 wooded foothills to play a kind of mind game with people? just a thought

Every combination of fetches have been conceived to give the RUG player an edge. But since this is the Tempo deck, the jig is up real quick with Turn-1 Delver, Mongoose or stifle (Thresh's best three turn-1 plays)

[Blaze22]

Thanks for the fast replies :)

But you two would definitely keep such a hand? Even at the risk of finding no further Land with Ponder?

The hand is definitely a keep, and I would start with fetch for volcanic - delver. If RUG does not apply pressure, it's a dead man walking. I'd rather take the risk of being wasteland-locked for some turns than have the certainty of lose a full turn of pressure.



has any thought of running 1 of each blue fetch land and 4 wooded foothills to play a kind of mind game with people? just a thought

If you look at my list (I posted it earlier today) you'll notice that it's exactily as you suggested :D

me: wooded foothills, go.
him: fetch, crack...- BAM, stifled into game 2. it happens sometimes, and it feels soooo nasty :D

Btw mind tricks and stuff are the sub-theme of my RUG, as I play 2 thought scour, a snapcaster and a tarfire to surprise the opponent in addition to the off-color-fetchlands trap that I could never miss ;)

[deadend]

If you look at my list (I posted it earlier today) you'll notice that it's exactly as you suggested :D

me: wooded foothills, go.
him: fetch, crack...- BAM, stifled into game 2. it happens sometimes, and it feels soooo nasty :D

Btw mind tricks and stuff are the sub-theme of my RUG, as I play 2 thought scour, a snapcaster and a tarfire to surprise the opponent in addition to the off-color-fetch lands trap that I could never miss ;)

ah sorry i missed your post XD and on another note i do tend to change places on were i play so only a few people know what i'm playing and there people who don't tell others whose playing what so that's all ways good. I was just surprised more people at bigger events don't do it like you said in the quote it can be pretty bad to go foothills in to stifle also this line of play can make them think your playing a weird home brew. so it can just mess with there mind and they have to over think what you might be playing

[KobeBryan]

1. how do you guys beat BUG decks?

Whats the best way to SB against it with a standard deck, with spellsnare and forked bolt.

The only way i can win is if i deny mana with stifle and wastelands and loam.

2. whats the best way to board against Miracles?

[deadend]

how do you guys beat BUG decks?

Whats the best way to SB against it with a standard deck, with spellsnare and forked bolt.

The only way i can win is if i deny mana with stifle and wastelands and loam.

kill/counter there drs/wasteland there lands/stifle there fetchlands or cascade tiggers and the last counter on a suspend ancestral vision

Capitalization and punctuation are required when posting on these boards. Please use them in the future. Thanks. -zilla

[thecrav]

stifle there fetchlands or cascade tiggers and the last counter on a suspend ancestral vision

I assume you know this, but for those who don't, be careful about how you do this.

Stifling the last counter coming off will only delay the draw for a turn.

Instead, stifle the trigger that allows it to be played, leaving it forever exiled.

[ShiftyKapree]

Batterskull token:

A highly recommended play :-) and no one uses Dismember in that way. Plus: Goyf, Tombstalker, Shaman, Thalia..all creatures of the format that FB cannot hit. But if you are afraid of the life loss and only 3 Goyfs in the list you can beef things up by playing 1 Dismember and 1 Tarfire.

Playing 1 Dismember and 1 Tarfire would be counter productive in using the Dismember on a Goyf

[Sasan]

That is right. Although I don't know if that anti-synergy happens too often. But yeah two Dismembers and a Izzet are perhaps the way to go when it comes to removal spells.

[Milen]

You have the perfect Hand, like Stifle, Delver, Force, Bolt, 1 random card and a Ponder plus exactly one Land.
It is the first game against my opponent and I dont know what he plays. Would you keep it? And if, would you play Delver turn 1 or ponder for the hope of another Land.
Everytime I am in a situation like that, I keep the hand with the most strange feeling and fear of a opposing turn 1 Wasteland. Furthermore I always start with a Delver, because i think creating Tempo is important.
How would you guys decide?


It is situations like this that probe really shinnes, yes it does not happen always. But just the information would let you know exactly how to play, instead of a sub-optimal play that you just picked on a hunch. Does he have fetches or wasteland? Does he Bolt to remove you delver on turn one? etc

[SirTylerGalt]

has any thought of running 1 of each blue fetch land and 4 wooded foothills to play a kind of mind game with people? just a thought

Mike Flores has: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26627_Five-With-Flores-Friday-Five-Wee-Ways-To-Win-More-Games.html :cool:

[Blitzkreuz]

It is situations like this that probe really shinnes, yes it does not happen always. But just the information would let you know exactly how to play, instead of a sub-optimal play that you just picked on a hunch. Does he have fetches or wasteland? Does he Bolt to remove you delver on turn one? etc

That is right, but I purposely didn't meantion having one in my opening hand, not because I don't play them, in fact I am trying them out, but I am not sure about em, but because I didn't want to start another argument about probe. I think it is said enough about it and everyone has to think for himself if you want to play it.

[Milen]

That is right, but I purposely didn't meantion having one in my opening hand, not because I don't play them, in fact I am trying them out, but I am not sure about em, but because I didn't want to start another argument about probe. I think it is said enough about it and everyone has to think for himself if you want to play it.

Fair enough, we are all on the same page.
As to answe your question, there is probably no right answer. Looking at other people playing RUG Delver on stream etc (especially Jacob Wilson) I would probably start with the delver, RUG is after all a Tempo deck, without a clock there is no tempo. Also he can not deal with both our permanents in one turn anyway, he can either waste land or kill the delver.

[Purgatory]

Fair enough, we are all on the same page.
As to answe your question, there is probably no right answer. Looking at other people playing RUG Delver on stream etc (especially Jacob Wilson) I would probably start with the delver, RUG is after all a Tempo deck, without a clock there is no tempo. Also he can not deal with both our permanents in one turn anyway, he can either waste land or kill the delver.

I used to play conservatively too, but lately I've been leaning more towards the blind Delver. After all, Wastelanding me isn't that attractive turn one, since I have a Delver. Removal is bad, of course, but with the Ponder one can find more threats.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I used to play conservatively too, but lately I've been leaning more towards the blind Delver. After all, Wastelanding me isn't that attractive turn one, since I have a Delver. Removal is bad, of course, but with the Ponder one can find more threats.
Depends. If they have no removal, they may decide to Waste you as clever opponents know that RUG plays just fourteen lands. Otoh, losing a turn1 with Waste only to see the opponent untap, upkeep, flip, draw, attack for 3, Trop, Mongoose, go... it's quite bad, isn't it?

[PacificPoem]

Fair enough, we are all on the same page.
As to answe your question, there is probably no right answer. Looking at other people playing RUG Delver on stream etc (especially Jacob Wilson) I would probably start with the delver, RUG is after all a Tempo deck, without a clock there is no tempo. Also he can not deal with both our permanents in one turn anyway, he can either waste land or kill the delver.

Ironically, against a good Tempo player (if that's what the opponent turned out to be on, otherwise maybe tribal or Taxes), turn 1 Pondering in this situation on 1 land may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. The opponent could then freely Waste your single land without any loss to tempo and with a some percentage chance that they just got a free win, based on the fact that their opponent just played a cantrip rather than a threat or keeping up disruption. However, if you played a turn 1 Delver, it would be mostly wrong for your opponent to Waste you, as you generally should not Waste at the expense of advancing your board or card quality when you are behind. Then again, the complicating factor is if it is actual RUG and they may be able to Probe you, see your tenuous situation, and Waste you anyways. That all being said, I'd generally play Delver turn 1 in this particular situation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd generally keep Stifle mana.

[Blitzkreuz]

I'd generally keep Stifle mana.

But if we are still in the scenario which I described earlier, would you then play land and hold it open for stifle and hope you draw another land soon?

Or did I misunderstood your statement and you refered to a more general szenario?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

But if we are still in the scenario which I described earlier, would you then play land and hold it open for stifle and hope you draw another land soon?

Or did I misunderstood your statement and you refered to a more general szenario?

I'd fetch immediatelly for Trop (because it plays Mongoose and if we draw Waste, it may play Goyf), then I'd keep Stifle open for fetch/Waste. On my second turn I'd draw a land like a champ and tap it for Delver with keeping the Stifle mana still open.

Now, less happy times may come.
1) Lets say I keep Stifle open and they lead with non-fetch land and play something. They have their turn, we lost it, but I still may cantrip on turn2 for a 2nd land. (Worst scenario been Thoughtseizing Ponder.)
2) They may lead with Waste and Waste us during upkeep. Now I Stifle the Waste. I've lost turn1, they've lost turn1 and I lost half of a turn2, but I still got my land. Depending on what I draw (it may be blank, of course) I'm either in game... or I'm not. Otoh, I don't think they draw a 2nd Waste.
3) They fetch, I Stifle. Then on my turn if I draw blank, I play cantrip to get to lands and stay in game. They lost turn1, I lost turn1+2 but I'm in game and they are one mana behind. In case I draw land out of Ponder, I play Delver. (So I did not even completely lost turn2.) Note how in this scenario you've Stonerained their land than Time Walked them, you also improved your board position to two lands and a threat, simultaneously made it more difficult to kill your Delver (because without mana they might not play Decay), all for the mere cost of one (ok, maybe three, but w/e) dmg.
4) They fetch, I Stifle. Then on my turn if I draw useful card, I play accordingly. (I may consider still not playing Delver if it helps, lets say I draw another Stifle.)
5) They fetch in my upk, I Stifle. Nothing changed, we both lost turn but they lost a land, too. Depending on what I draw... but ok, it's obvious, isn't it?

Basically I'd shy to play "Delver, go", because I remember the games when I got myself out of initial flood or w/e, but you cannot reliably play Delver and hope to tap it SEVEN times. If I'm in game, I'm still not defeated, but without mana I'm pretty doomed. Also, good luck playing Daze without Islands.

Lets say I'd play the Delver, they Waste my land and over the course of few next turns completely kick me out of game with Stiflewastegoyfgoyfgoyfanything. They'd definitely draw a bolt somewhere in the process, or they may even ignore the Delver as long as I'm out of the game just trying to race them with my mere flyer. That's where and when they just start dropping the creatures and overrun me in pretty fast fashion, because double 4/5 are faster then one 3/2 no matter how you put it. Also, they may throw their Delver in our path, etc.
Otoh, if you cut them of mana via Stifle/Waste, you may still tap for the Delver a turn later when it is safe of Bolt and/or when they can't follow it with anything else and run into Daze or w/e.

Btw, I'm not that erect from turn1 Delvers. Ppl often act like there's no other turn and the whole "turn1 threat" doctrine is not really useful. We are not some Savannah Lions 93/94 aggro and we simply cannot win with one Delver. And I rather waste my first turn and waste the three dmg then be wasted out of game.

What am I missing?

[Blitzkreuz]

I think you are right. If you dont want to play first turn delver, then holding up stifle mana is maybe the better line of play instead of pondering instantly.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think you are right. If you dont want to play first turn delver, then holding up stifle mana is maybe the better line of play instead of pondering instantly.

Thanks, I also hope I'm right. And an interesting thing just came to my mind...

1) Lets say I keep Stifle open and they lead with non-fetch land and play something. They have their turn, we lost it, but I still may cantrip on turn2 for a 2nd land. (Worst scenario been Thoughtseizing Ponder.)
Imho this is an exact way how to lose the game, because if they Seize/Duress our Ponder and force us to be stuck on one land (with our only threat postponed for a turn), we might be unable to come back. I still risk this, because:
- it doesn't matter how we lose, because loss is a loss, but at least the other lines of play keep us in game, while running into Waste and then losing with no way to play our cards is humiliating and frustrating
- it needn't to happen, after all there are other scenarios how the game might end
- and finally: it's just a g1 against unknown opponent in a format:fetchlands. I'd rather take the risk and try to blow them out with Stifle, then lose a painful death without lands, moreover no matter what, we'd still have two games to change the final result of a match, and more moreover, I'd rather believe in my deck's capability to hold the head high, than again lose to one stupid Waste.

[Purgatory]

I'd fetch immediatelly for Trop (because it plays Mongoose and if we draw Waste, it may play Goyf), then I'd keep Stifle open for fetch/Waste. On my second turn I'd draw a land like a champ and tap it for Delver with keeping the Stifle mana still open.

Now, less happy times may come.
1) Lets say I keep Stifle open and they lead with non-fetch land and play something. They have their turn, we lost it, but I still may cantrip on turn2 for a 2nd land. (Worst scenario been Thoughtseizing Ponder.)
2) They may lead with Waste and Waste us during upkeep. Now I Stifle the Waste. I've lost turn1, they've lost turn1 and I lost half of a turn2, but I still got my land. Depending on what I draw (it may be blank, of course) I'm either in game... or I'm not. Otoh, I don't think they draw a 2nd Waste.
3) They fetch, I Stifle. Then on my turn if I draw blank, I play cantrip to get to lands and stay in game. They lost turn1, I lost turn1+2 but I'm in game and they are one mana behind. In case I draw land out of Ponder, I play Delver. (So I did not even completely lost turn2.) Note how in this scenario you've Stonerained their land than Time Walked them, you also improved your board position to two lands and a threat, simultaneously made it more difficult to kill your Delver (because without mana they might not play Decay), all for the mere cost of one (ok, maybe three, but w/e) dmg.
4) They fetch, I Stifle. Then on my turn if I draw useful card, I play accordingly. (I may consider still not playing Delver if it helps, lets say I draw another Stifle.)
5) They fetch in my upk, I Stifle. Nothing changed, we both lost turn but they lost a land, too. Depending on what I draw... but ok, it's obvious, isn't it?

Basically I'd shy to play "Delver, go", because I remember the games when I got myself out of initial flood or w/e, but you cannot reliably play Delver and hope to tap it SEVEN times. If I'm in game, I'm still not defeated, but without mana I'm pretty doomed. Also, good luck playing Daze without Islands.

Lets say I'd play the Delver, they Waste my land and over the course of few next turns completely kick me out of game with Stiflewastegoyfgoyfgoyfanything. They'd definitely draw a bolt somewhere in the process, or they may even ignore the Delver as long as I'm out of the game just trying to race them with my mere flyer. That's where and when they just start dropping the creatures and overrun me in pretty fast fashion, because double 4/5 are faster then one 3/2 no matter how you put it. Also, they may throw their Delver in our path, etc.
Otoh, if you cut them of mana via Stifle/Waste, you may still tap for the Delver a turn later when it is safe of Bolt and/or when they can't follow it with anything else and run into Daze or w/e.

Btw, I'm not that erect from turn1 Delvers. Ppl often act like there's no other turn and the whole "turn1 threat" doctrine is not really useful. We are not some Savannah Lions 93/94 aggro and we simply cannot win with one Delver. And I rather waste my first turn and waste the three dmg then be wasted out of game.

What am I missing?

I like your way of thinking. How would you play it if, for example, the opp goes fetch, pass and you blank the draw step?

[KasumiFox]

I'd fetch immediatelly for Trop (because it plays Mongoose and if we draw Waste, it may play Goyf), then I'd keep Stifle open for fetch/Waste. On my second turn I'd draw a land like a champ and tap it for Delver with keeping the Stifle mana still open.

Now, less happy times may come.
1) Lets say I keep Stifle open and they lead with non-fetch land and play something. They have their turn, we lost it, but I still may cantrip on turn2 for a 2nd land. (Worst scenario been Thoughtseizing Ponder.)
2) They may lead with Waste and Waste us during upkeep. Now I Stifle the Waste. I've lost turn1, they've lost turn1 and I lost half of a turn2, but I still got my land. Depending on what I draw (it may be blank, of course) I'm either in game... or I'm not. Otoh, I don't think they draw a 2nd Waste.
3) They fetch, I Stifle. Then on my turn if I draw blank, I play cantrip to get to lands and stay in game. They lost turn1, I lost turn1+2 but I'm in game and they are one mana behind. In case I draw land out of Ponder, I play Delver. (So I did not even completely lost turn2.) Note how in this scenario you've Stonerained their land than Time Walked them, you also improved your board position to two lands and a threat, simultaneously made it more difficult to kill your Delver (because without mana they might not play Decay), all for the mere cost of one (ok, maybe three, but w/e) dmg.
4) They fetch, I Stifle. Then on my turn if I draw useful card, I play accordingly. (I may consider still not playing Delver if it helps, lets say I draw another Stifle.)
5) They fetch in my upk, I Stifle. Nothing changed, we both lost turn but they lost a land, too. Depending on what I draw... but ok, it's obvious, isn't it?

Basically I'd shy to play "Delver, go", because I remember the games when I got myself out of initial flood or w/e, but you cannot reliably play Delver and hope to tap it SEVEN times. If I'm in game, I'm still not defeated, but without mana I'm pretty doomed. Also, good luck playing Daze without Islands.

Lets say I'd play the Delver, they Waste my land and over the course of few next turns completely kick me out of game with Stiflewastegoyfgoyfgoyfanything. They'd definitely draw a bolt somewhere in the process, or they may even ignore the Delver as long as I'm out of the game just trying to race them with my mere flyer. That's where and when they just start dropping the creatures and overrun me in pretty fast fashion, because double 4/5 are faster then one 3/2 no matter how you put it. Also, they may throw their Delver in our path, etc.
Otoh, if you cut them of mana via Stifle/Waste, you may still tap for the Delver a turn later when it is safe of Bolt and/or when they can't follow it with anything else and run into Daze or w/e.

Btw, I'm not that erect from turn1 Delvers. Ppl often act like there's no other turn and the whole "turn1 threat" doctrine is not really useful. We are not some Savannah Lions 93/94 aggro and we simply cannot win with one Delver. And I rather waste my first turn and waste the three dmg then be wasted out of game.

What am I missing?


Since your only cantrip is sorcery speed, I guess there's no way to just sit on stifle and hope a land comes from the top next turn. Are you gonna do that the turn after as well if you draw another spell? And if he just play a basic or dual land?

When you play Delver, even if you are wastelanded, there is two good situations next turn:
1- Delver flips and you start pressuring his life points.
2- Draw land and play cantrip to either flip Delver next turn and get another land.

If they don't play wasteland on turn 1, which is more reasonable, you are pretty fine anyway.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like your way of thinking. How would you play it if, for example, the opp goes fetch, pass and you blank the draw step?

Depends on if his fetch resolves.



Since your only cantrip is sorcery speed, I guess there's no way to just sit on stifle and hope a land comes from the top next turn. Are you gonna do that the turn after as well if you draw another spell? And if he just play a basic or dual land?

When you play Delver, even if you are wastelanded, there is two good situations next turn:
1- Delver flips and you start pressuring his life points.
2- Draw land and play cantrip to either flip Delver next turn and get another land.

If they don't play wasteland on turn 1, which is more reasonable, you are pretty fine anyway.
I think I already wrote about this situation in one of the above posts. Basically I'm unwilling to lose to Waste, I'd much rather take my risk and try to outplay the opponent once I get to lands on turn2.
I'd hesitate to play Delver and deal one dmg, when I may Stifle their fetch, Ponder into land and then play Delver on turn two with 1) their fetch Stifled, 2) my land saved, 3) Delver played, 4) top ready to flip.
Ok, this might not happen, but I still don't see much trouble in this line of play. If they start with basic/dual, yeah, this happens and what? So we'd be having a Delver in play, and?

[Purgatory]

Sorry, I was unclear - what if the opponent just drops a fetch land without cracking it, passing and you whiff the draw step? Do you still pass with Stifle mana, in which case the opponent can just drop a second land and play a one drop anyway, or do you Ponder/Delver?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sorry, I was unclear - what if the opponent just drops a fetch land without cracking it, passing and you whiff the draw step? Do you still pass with Stifle mana, in which case the opponent can just drop a second land and play a one drop anyway, or do you Ponder/Delver?

Sadly, this time I'll definitely need to play something. And it'll be Ponder (if my fetch resolves, ofc), because it may find another land. If I'd feel save of Daze (lets say he plays some silly non-blue fetch like Heath or somthing like that), I'd think about tapping the second land - if I'll get it - for the Delver, esp. if he fetches in resp. to Ponder.

[trollking21]

Against decks where waste landing them isn't a very attractive option, like shardless BUG or maverick has anyone tried siding in 3 cost threats like clique or or TNN

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Against decks where waste landing them isn't a very attractive option, like shardless BUG or maverick has anyone tried siding in 3 cost threats like clique or or TNN
I quite often side in Sulfur Elementals.

[ShiftyKapree]

So do we now play Llawan in the sb now as a one of or two with the rise of TNN and merfolk making a comeback

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So do we now play Llawan in the sb now as a one of or two with the rise of TNN and merfolk making a comeback
I'm not sure. Frankly, there's something disgusting in loss against Folkz, but well, Llawan is horrible and at four mana, it needn't to resolve. Also, Vial circumvents Llawan.

[ShiftyKapree]

I'm not sure. Frankly, there's something disgusting in loss against Folkz, but well, Llawan is horrible and at four mana, it needn't to resolve. Also, Vial circumvents Llawan.

I'm using it in the u/w stoneblade list that's what I'm worried about with Tnn steam rolling my face