[single card discussion] Orcish Lumberjack

[DrJones]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cstd/36.jpg

There was some serious discussion about this card on the thread about underplayed red cards. It was starting to clutter that thread, so I thought it would be better to open this one for anyone interested in the potential of the orc.

I'll gather later all points given about this card on the other thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13714), just so you don't have to read it beforehand. But for now here's the link.

Good:

Crazy Acceleration. Allows for 5 mana on turn 2 by itself.
Cheap.
Generates any combination of R/G
Huge Tempo boost
Reusable
.... (to be filled)


Bad:

Summoning sickness
Weak body
Bad in multiples
card disadvantage
it's not a goblin
... (to be filled)

[Otter]

The card disadvantage seems like a huge obstacle to work around. If your massive play gets Dazed, Forced, or Plowed, they essentially go 3 for 1 and you are reaaaaaaaally screwed. Being down a land and left with a 1/1 guy that has no use unless you draw another giant threat seems like a mess. It also leaves you pretty badly open to mana denial, if you throw away one of your lands on turn two and they Waste your other one (or Stifle a fetch), that's probably game. It's hard to think of threats in R/G that are resiliant enough to go "all in" for. Here's a basic list of decent threats in R/G (feel free to contribute if I missed some):

Spellbreaker Behemoth -- Solid, solves Daze/FoW issues, but he's easy to Plow and not remotely assured of racing a Jitte, Goyf, Slogger, etc. On the other hand, he does make sure they can't counter your other threats, so maybe he is capable of racing.

Rumbling Slum -- Races better, but to be realistic, he seems pretty awful.

Deus of Calamity -- Still 3 for 1, but he's a hell of a beating if you can connect with him and he doesn't take shit from Goyf or Stalker.

Blastoderm -- If he doesn't get countered, he's pretty damn good. The only problem is, he can't go across for 20 on his own and I feel like a threat that you get to stick via Lumberjack really has to be capable of going the full distance. I could easily see someone tanking the three hits from him and then beating you over the head with Goyf before you can get a follow-up to stick.

Demigod of Revenge -- While he races nicely, you can't count on your opponents to play poorly and screw up their timing on countering him.

Lumbering Satyr -- Could be kinda techy as it owns against people playing Trops and you can throw away your own Forests to the Lumberjack. Not that appealing though, I think.

Arc Slogger -- He's a monster for sure, but I don't know how much you're guaranteed to have large quantities of Red to Shock with him if you are throwing lands to Lumberjack him out. It could work, but the concept of having a Slogger with only one land left in play doesn't seem that appealing.

Quagnoth (lol) -- Hey, it actually manages to solve the 3 for 1 problem!! However, he's really just not fat enough to tangle with Goyf and Stalker, so I don't think it accomplishes anything.

Kodama of the North Tree -- I'm really getting low on ideas here. He's interesting, but probably dies too easily to Goyf.

Natural Order >> Progenitus -- This seems decent, but you need a green dude to throw away. Messy.

None of these really strike me as resiliant or scary enough to go all-in with Lumberjack for them. Maybe Deus and Natural Order do, but that's it. This isn't to say that

[coraz86]

Maybe this is a stretch, but if you throw Lumberjack in a deck that's already running Survival and Anger, maybe you give the deck a combo-win in case the game stalls. (Imagine having this guy, a Rofellos, and a Banefire.) Could be a beating in any Legacy incarnation of the mono-red storm deck that was running around Standard a year or two ago, although I'm not sure what you'd have to do to that idea to make it better than ANT or Dragon Stompy or any other deck featuring combo/red.

[quicksilver]

Ah yes I remeber the first iteration of RGSA ran him, that didn't last too long. It would accelerate into turn two shivan wurms. However if they killed the wurm, or even the orc in response not only did you lsoe lots of card advantage but you also lost a lot of tempo advantage cause now you are a land drop behind (in addition to the loss fo card). Mana drain was still legal back then so it was the worst when they mana drianed your turn 2 shivan wurm, it was just game over. (Nothing like them mana draining into 3 decree of justice angel tokens while you only have 1 land out.)

so ya painful memories of orcish lumber jack. His drawback is just too much if you rplay gets stopped you lose both card advantage AND tempo, it's really really bad.

[Mordel]

I don't need to use the search button to be able to guess that there has already been a discussion about welder, but either way, welder seems like a more worthy card to brainstorm about.

Lumberjack is neat. I know that firsthand because I used to use them a lot, but the fact of the matter is that considering their requirement of forests and that to maximize their effect and the loss of lands for a temporary tempo boost, I don't really see them going beyond the realm of a good idea. I see them as being too strenuous of a card to try to maximize.

A card like welder on the other hand allows you to negate permission and can also fit into far cooler shells than some sort of midrange red and green deck. No one has mentioned this, but blood moons fuck with them. That doesn't seem great to me when I consider that I would definitely want to run moon effects in an R/G midrange deck.

Don't get me wrong here: I'm not saying finding a niche for them is impossible or anything, I just thing that when we consider the role that they fill as an accelerator, there are similar alternatives that could perform a similar roll that are tried, tested and true.

[Raider Bob]

Mulletus used to play this guy in his survival build, the problem is always there is just better stuff out there for the deck slot.

-1 Deck Slot if you play him as a one of, and if you want to drop him turn one for acceleration you would have a -4 deck slot. With deck space being the primary problem in most Legacy deck(With so many good cards deck space is at a premium)this guy has a I am just not good enough problem.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Wasn't there a strange Belcher list that used him a while back? Some sort of hybrid, if I recall...

[rufus]

I was thinking about this, and I wonder about the potential of running Lumberjack in some kind of Dragonstorm deck. A big problem that Dragonstorm has in legacy is that when you've accelerated into the 9-11 mana necessary to go off the storm count is typically sufficient for tendrils anyway, but Karrthus has reduced the nominally lethal copy count to 2-3 for Dragonstorm (Karrthus + Dragon Tyrant swing for 19 damage on the same turn.) As a consequence, Dragonstorm is much friendlier to banked acceleration (like the lumberjack) than the other storm cards.

[coraz86]

I like that idea. That might even be nice as a subtheme in a Dragon Stompy-ish control deck, or a CounterBurn kind of idea.
I smell a new/developmental deck here. I'll have to get on MWS next week and tinker a litle.

[DrJones]

I'm still trying ideas on MWS so I haven't been able to comment more, but here are some more suggestion of threats to consider.

Molder Slug: Another beast that can provide enough support for Contested Cliffs. Also, answers jitte and other troubling artifacts. Might be a bit slow.

Natural Balance: Not sure about this, but you get 5 lands from one and the drawback softens if the opponent doesn't run as many basics. The mana also comes untapped and ready for use on a 4-5cc card, and if lumberjack survives it would mean 8 mana next turn.

Weird Harvest: 2nd turn search for any 3 creatures. I'm not sure how useful this could be, but maybe there's a combo somewhere that might work with up to three creatures and no more than 5 g/r mana.

Alluren: I wonder if alluren players are interested in trying this one.

[MTG-Fan]

Remember those Tooth and Nail decks from Extended that would depend on maindeck anti-control measures like Xantid Swarm and mana acceleration in the form of UrzaTron to drop their uncounterable game-winning bomb (The Tooth and Nail combo)?

I want to make a R/G deck that runs stuff like Vexing Shusher and Xantid Swarm maindeck to protect big bombs faciliated by guys like Orcish Lumberjack and other forms of mana accel. Something that will completely prey on the Counterbalance decks that are so popular now.

Weird Harvest sounds interesting. Maybe something built around Chord of Calling? I forgot about Alluren, too.

[rufus]

Natural Balance: Not sure about this, but you get 5 lands from one and the drawback softens if the opponent doesn't run as many basics. The mana also comes untapped and ready for use on a 4-5cc card, and if lumberjack survives it would mean 8 mana next turn.

Natural Balance has pretty good synergy with land sacrifice effects. That includes stuff like Squandered Resources, Rain of Filth, and Mana Seism as well as the Lumberjack. The problem is that it's only plausible alternative land playing element seems to be new frontiers.

I find myself wondering about something that ramps something like this:

Turn 1:
Orcish Lumberjack/Tinder Wall

Turn 2:
4x Natural Balance/4x New Frontiers

Turn 3: (or 2 on a god draw)
4x Squandered Resources
4x Rain of Filth



Weird Harvest: 2nd turn search for any 3 creatures. I'm not sure how useful this could be, but maybe there's a combo somewhere that might work with up to three creatures and no more than 5 g/r mana.

It's *almost there* with Protean Hulk + ESG + Sac Outlet....
Edit:
With six mana (or an extra fetch) you can do (or with the LBJ in play):
Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite + Wild Cantor (+ ESG/SSG)

[deadlock]

I played against an G/R aggro deck utilizing Lumberjack a couples of days ago.
It used small mana pumper like Jack and elves to power out big creatures (these r/g 5/5 and 6/6 dudes, forgot the name).

Now to use the Dragonstorm idea, such a deck could add 4 Burning Wish and a Dstorm in the sb to make it even jankier :cool:

[Maveric78f]

When I came back to magic during Kamigawa (after leaving it at Exodus), I used to play a jank sneak attack deck that could play the creatures if ever it did not find the sneak attack (I played the 7/7 trample wurm, Kokusho, ...).

Now, I can say it was really bad but Lumberjack was clearly the MVP.

[hi-val]

I'd really like to see Jack in a R/G Fatties Aggro deck that ran Greater Good as well. I think the Enchantment is the thing that could push the deck into respectability and you can eat anything that gets destroyed for more fatties. A turn-2 Demigod or Deus of Calamity looks pretty fresh off Jack.

[Forbiddian]

Here are some problems with Orcish Lumberjack:

#1: Primarily it gives card disadvantage. I could easily justify saccing a land for 3 mana (if I could do that easily, I would in every single deck I can think of), but a lot of people forget that you invest in the Orcish Lumberjack as well.

If you only plan on using it just once for critical second turn, you have to really question the strength of that play, since whatever card you stick out has to go at least 4:1 (one for the forest, one for the Orcish Lumberjack (woot for a 1/1), one for the card you cast, and one more to make it worth it). Pretty much it needs to win the game.


Because of the raw power that has to come from the card you're casting, it had better be ridiculously broken (and probably uncounterable, as getting it Forced/Daze is an unmitigated disaster).

I believe that forces you to play with some sort of combo shell: Your goal is to resolve an extremely powerful card that can win the game.

Unfortunately, Green and Red are the absolute WORST colors to defend a combo. Look at Fetchland Tendrils, the staple combo deck for resiliency and protection of the combo elements. The standard build runs: Black, Blue, and White.




Orcish Lumberjack is a terrible card that won't see play. Someone feel free to prove me wrong, but it's way too much to risk to stick some dumb 5cc (non-Ad Nauseum) card onto the stack on turn 2. It's way too much to give up your first turn, a land drop, and three cards for something that doesn't win the game in color.

@ specific cards:

Turn 2 Deus of Calamity (or any other creature): Lol. Ok, so you pass your turn two (if on the play) with 4 cards in hand, Orcish Lumberjack, one land, and Deus of Calamity. Your opponent casts: Force of Will, Daze, Swords to Plowshares, Snuff Out, etc. etc. leaving you with nothing, GG (and this is one of the better plays?)

There's nothing else, really. NO --> Pro has huge problems (they Force and you lose EVERYTHING, and it's hard to get a green guy out). Orcish Lumberjack is Mons Goblin Raiders with a different creature type.




EDIT: I think it might be more useful to try to fuel out a 10-11cc play (as we can write off the second turn broken crap since countermagic and swords ruin you), but since 10-11cc plays have been completely unsuccessful in the past, there's no indication that they'd be more practical with this delayed red ritual.

Food Chain Goblins is not played much anymore and it seems superior.

[MTG-Fan]

If you want to go the "big game-winning spell" route, you can play guys like Vexing Shusher or Xantid Swarm MD to protect your combo and make use of all that extra mana.

I think there's a deck to be made with MD anti-control elements that tries to resolve a big spell to win the game. Something like Eureka, or Natural Order, with mana accel and the aforementioned protection.

[rufus]

Unfortunately, Green and Red are the absolute WORST colors to defend a combo. Look at Fetchland Tendrils, the staple combo deck for resiliency and protection of the combo elements. The standard build runs: Black, Blue, and White.

Honestly, there's not a whole lot that prevents a combo deck from playing RGU or RGB, even if it reduces the number of basic lands the deck wants to play.



@ specific cards:
Turn 2 Deus of Calamity (or any other creature): Lol. Ok, so you pass your turn two (if on the play) with 4 cards in hand, Orcish Lumberjack, one land, and Deus of Calamity. Your opponent casts: Force of Will, Daze, Swords to Plowshares, Snuff Out, etc. etc. leaving you with nothing, GG (and this is one of the better plays?)

You're assuming no additional acceleration, which seems a bit strange. I'd expect a deck with Orcish Lumberjacks to feature other acceleration for a variety of reasons, so 6-9 mana (which does allow game-winning plays) is more reasonable.


Food Chain Goblins is not played much anymore and it seems superior.
Goblin Recruiter got banned, just because of that deck. That's why it isn't played anymore. Hardly a fair comparison.

[Mordel]

I know what you're getting at, Forbiddian and agree with you, but I don't really agree with this:

Unfortunately, Green and Red are the absolute WORST colors to defend a combo. Look at Fetchland Tendrils, the staple combo deck for resiliency and protection of the combo elements. The standard build runs: Black, Blue, and White.

because while the cards only take up a total of five or so slots, pyroblast and a grip are awesome protection pieces for DDFT.

[GGoober]

This could be really cute with Harvest Wurm. Accelerate into Harvest Wurm and return the land card to your hand and play out more spells. But that would amake a R/G Berserk Stompy deck too cute to be viable. The deck would probably burn out of cards. The only reason I see playing this card is in some Belcher variant, but Tinder Wall is strictly better.

[Forbiddian]

I know what you're getting at, Forbiddian and agree with you, but I don't really agree with this:

because while the cards only take up a total of five or so slots, pyroblast and a grip are awesome protection pieces for DDFT.

I didn't say they were totally useless, I said they were the worst. Kgrip and Pyroblast don't compare favorably to Orim's Chant or Ponder or Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, and Tendrils of Agony.




Goblin Recruiter got banned, just because of that deck. That's why it isn't played anymore. Hardly a fair comparison.

No, it's a totally fair comparison. Goblin Recruiter got banned. Guess what? Food Chain Goblins is STILL BETTER than Turn2DeusofCalamity.dec or whatever other crap you have in mind for Orcish Lumberjacks to fuel out. The reason FCG is not played: It's simply not viable anymore. Guess what my point was about Orcish Lumberjack?




You're assuming no additional acceleration, which seems a bit strange. I'd expect a deck with Orcish Lumberjacks to feature other acceleration for a variety of reasons, so 6-9 mana (which does allow game-winning plays) is more reasonable.

Why would I possibly run that crap, then, when I could win the game for 3BB? I'm serious, that's terrible reasoning: "There's nothing good enough at 5cc, so let's just go higher! Eventually we'll find something viable!"

First of all, name a card that's as good as Ad Nauseum for red or green under 9 casting cost. (I can't think of anything that costs even 9 or 10 that would win the game from red or green single-handedly if resolved. The closest I've got for you is Kaervek's Torch.) Second of all, imagine how much easier your life would be if instead of paying 9+, you only had to pay 5. Ok, last, imagine instead of playing Red and Green, you played Black and Blue and White. Wow, your deck rocks now!



The best use for Orcish Lumberjack: IRL Firewood. Hopefully Toothlicker Harj, orcish captain can appreciate the irony

[Malchar]

This card hardly warrants the creation of a new archetype. The main deck that this card should be considered for is Dragon Stompy. The only problem is that it doesn't have haste. It's useless for pulling off a cute turn one play. After that, it's still useless because it costs 1, so you end up turning it off with Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere. Other than that, it's not a bad card. Card disadvantage is hardly an issue. It goes without saying that any deck that would use this card isn't interested in card advantage. It's quite comparable to Simian Spirit Guide except that this card is slower to start but keeps on adding mana. Also, a 1/1 body for 1 isn't too bad in a Stompy build with equipment floating around. Anyway, I'm not particularly excited about this. Goblin Welder is definitely more underplayed than this guy.

[MTG-Fan]

Could that new "Golden Lotus" card be just what we needed to give the Orcish Lumberjack strategy some consistency?

It basically gives you 3 Orcish Lumberjack effects in one shot (3 mana for each of 3 sac'd lands)... so between 4 Golden Lotus and 4 Lumberjack you can ensure some crazy mana by turn 4-5?

[Forbiddian]

Could that new "Golden Lotus" card be just what we needed to give the Orcish Lumberjack strategy some consistency?

It basically gives you 3 Orcish Lumberjack effects in one shot (3 mana for each of 3 sac'd lands)... so between 4 Golden Lotus and 4 Lumberjack you can ensure some crazy mana by turn 4-5?

Lotus = Requires tons of land for a huge (9+ mana) turn 5 play.
Lumberjack = Requires 1-2 land for a 5-6 mana turn 2 play.
Terrible synergy with each other.

How is this similar?

[GreenOne]

a good things you can drop with Lumberjack are planeswalkers. Burn spells are not that present in the meta, pernicious deed can't affect them and usually neither EE. We're not in the tur 1 lackey meta of soe years ago, so probably you won't see a good powered creature unless there's a goyf on turn 2. You also get to chumpblock the creature with your lumberjack to save the planeswalker for a turn.