[Deck] Dredge

[Gui]

@ Malakai:

Seriously, UW is about as good as a matchup can be.
Minimal interaction, even postboard, and no serious hate, what's not to love about the matchup.

I wouldn't say so, they can counter your draw spells, they can counter LED and PImp, they can STP your Ichorids and, postboard, Extraction + Snapcaster can be a pain. Maybe it's still easy pre-board, but they do interact.

[HokusSchmokus]

I wouldn't say so, they can counter your draw spells, they can counter LED and PImp, they can STP your Ichorids and, postboard, Extraction + Snapcaster can be a pain. Maybe it's still easy pre-board, but they do interact.

They interact much less than most of the major other decks. Both pre and postboard.
Snapcaster-extraction is about as standard as it gets regarding hate.
All the relevant cards I tested against: Snapcaster Mage, Extraction, Swords, Path,Relic, Crypt, Cage, O-Ring, Stifle, Boomerang, Shackles, Jace, Batterskull, Gilded Drake, Sea Drake, Echoing Truths, Psionic Blast and some other stuff.
From those, what UW usually has is Snappy+ Swords, path and Extraction, sometimes relic or cage.
Now, in terms of relevance, it is not much more than other decks have game 1 and are still no bad preboard matchups.
when about 4-7 cards come in, only cage being relevant( extractions only in multiples), while both path and sword are not actually that bad for you, I call it minimal relevant interaction, I am sorry.

[jares]

I have no problem with discussing why certain cards are suboptimal in a winning list, how those can be improved, whether some options are better in certain metas, etc. I have a problem with people who believe Moses came down from the mountain with the optimal 75-card Dredge list carved in stone tablets, that this list was revealed to the Chosen people, and that any deviation from this list (for which I still don't see a consensus) is blasphemous.

I also don't mind people discussing why certain lines of plays were bad. Hell, everyone saw it. I do have a problem when people try to dismiss all of their accomplishments and assume they played that badly through the entire tournament.
Yep, you got that right - anything that The Chosen Ones don't like is blasphemous, especially when you win with it! :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Also one thing to take note of about the upcoming new primer: it's going to take me a little bit of time to get in as much information as possible. So far it is going extremely well and there is a lot already done but I'd just like to point out again that Dredge is very subjective and open to interpretation. What one person feels is optimal another might not see it as being that way. I am really just simply covering the basics and fundamentals of the archetype as a whole and am going a little bit into some other variations of Dredge that exist.

Just be patient and I'll make it worth while.
I'll be looking forward to this :smile:

Cheers,
jares

[NewDredgePlayer]

Hi, I'm new to dredge and was wondering what you guys thought about the configuration below. I cut the cephalid coliseums and the dread return package in an attempt to make the deck more consistant.

Land 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Draw 12
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Dredgers 11
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Misc 25
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcoemoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
2 Entomb (golgari grave-trolls for the most part or faithless looting if LED is in play and there are dredgers in the graveyard/hand)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

[HokusSchmokus]

Hi, I'm new to dredge and was wondering what you guys thought about the configuration below. I cut the cephalid coliseums and the dread return package in an attempt to make the deck more consistant.

Land 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Draw 12
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Dredgers 11
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Misc 25
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcoemoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
2 Entomb (golgari grave-trolls for the most part or faithless looting if LED is in play and there are dredgers in the graveyard/hand)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
I think Coliseums are needed for a consistent dredge list.
Also, Entomb doesn't really do anything except binding mana and being too slow.

[joemauer]

Me thinks newdredgeplayer is trying to troll us with his 'new tech' of entomb.

We need to put links in the new primer where entomb has been discussed to death throughout this thread.
Oh and unmask while we are at it.

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't care. I like that we can count on someone to bring up entomb every 3 months, though;)

[Felidae]

After sweeping 4-0 with Idiotlife.dec and failing 1-3 with PSI in the last 2 weeks I decided to play LEDless Dredge in my weekly local tourney once again ( back to the roots I guess).


R1: Spiral Tide:
G1: He's on the play and starts with a Preordain, while I'm kinda greedy and start with a Carefull Study, in order to roll him over on turn 2 via Coliseum. Unfortunately he has the Force and then proceedes to kill me Turn 3.
Allthough I could have gone for DDD I doubt that the game would have ended in another way, as my only available dredgers where 2 Thugs and in my top 4 cards I had neither Therapy nor Moeba.

Sideboarding: None

G2: He mulligans and I kill him on turn two via Breakthrough, gg.

G3: We both have to mulligan and he leads with Ponder, while I start with a Study, discarding Troll and Imp in the process. On my 2nd turn I go for Coliseum and find allmost everything, except for Therapies, meh. But he doesn't have luck either, so he gets overwhelmed by Ichorids.

Still undefeated against Spiral Tide, sweet.


Round 2: The Gate

G1: He leads with Swamp, go, while I lead with a PImp. On his 2nd turn he destroyes my land with a Wasteland and casts a Innocent Blood, but after discarding Troll, Bridge, Bridge and Ichorid he looks a little sad and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: He trashtalked about him boarding 11 cards and how he would destroy me postboard...
+4 Claim +1 Ray of Revelation ( this guy allways runs a set Leyline and now he plays The Gate, so yeah.... guess this was a nobrainer) -1 Thug, -4 Looting

G2: I have to mulligan to 6 and he slams 3!!! Leylines on the table..... yeah good joke.

Sideboarding: -1 Darkblast +1 Looting ( I don't fear the turn 2 Bob on the play )

G3: I lead with a Putrid Imp, while he doesn't have a Leyline this time, but a turn 1 Thoughtseize, forcing me to discard my Natures Claim, however seeing the Coliseum in my hand made him kinda mad.
Long story short: I dump a good choke of my deck in my yard, pick his hand apart and thats all there is to say.

Afterwards he shows me the following: 4 Leylines, 2 Nihil Spellbomb, 3 Extirpate, 2 Infest... holy cow I guess I was really lucky to win this :S.

Round 3: Burn

G1: He's on the play and I keep a very lose hand: Citadel, 2 Breakthrough, Moeba, Troll, Study, Bridge. So my plan was simple: DDD and then go crasy turn 2 with Breakthrough. He leads with a Goblin Guide, reavealing a 3rd Breakthrough and on my turn I simply draw and discard Troll.
He goes for a turn 2 Hellspark and attacks me down to 13, revealing a Therapy with the Guide. I dredge for my turn and guess what: I don't find another dredger. sweet. So I had to discard the troll again.
On his turn he goes for a Figure of Destiny, recurring his Hellspark and attacks me down to 8 life, while his Guide reaveled a 2nd Troll.
So I finaly dredge into buisness and go for Citadell, Breakthrough, dropping to 5 life.
And then we have a big missunderstanding that leads to my victory, a pretty uncomfortable victory.

Here we go: I have 2 Moebaes, 3 Bridges and a single Therapy, while he has 2 cards in his hand.
I cast my Therapy, ask him whether or not my Bridge trigger resolves and then ask again whether or not Therapy resolves. He asked what he should do in response and I answer: "Fireblast". He thought that this was the card I wanted to name with Therapy and so he revealed his hand, containing 2 PoP. Ofc I was totaly confused, until I realized what just happend. We call a judge and he rules in my favor, as the Therapy was still on the stack when I said Fireblast and as we all know we have to name a card when the Therapy resolves.

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

So far I never used it, allthough I haven't had any situation where I wanted to use it ( i.e. playing against some jerk who really deserves some dirty trick like that), yet.

Well lets go back to the game. He topdecks a land, attacks with his team and I chump his Guide with my Moeabe and block his Figure with a token, leading to 3 more token, no Bridges and an allmost empty board on his side.
3 Ichorids later I bring him down to 3, leaving a lonely token behind to block his Guide. He doesn't draw Lava Axe and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: None

G2.: He starts with Mountain, Grafediggers Cage. My jaw nearly drops to the floor while he simply laughs his ass off.

Sideboarding: +2 Grudge +2 Chewer -1 Darkblast -3 Looting

G3.: He mulligans and I start with a Therapy on him, looking for Cage ( in order to win turn 2 with a PImp and a Breakthrough), he reveals a couple of brunspells and no real hate, draws for his turn, smiles and slams Cage on the table. Needles to say I don't find my hate and my lone PImp can'T race him ( who would have guessed).

Afterwards he shows me his boarding: +2 Cage and +2 Volcanic Fallout.... yeah sometimes you win against 9 (11) hate cards and sometimes you lose against 2(4).

Round 4: Combo Elves

G1: I start with a Study, hitting a PImp and another Study, while discarding Bridge and Imp. He simply leads with Llanowar Elf. On my turn I dredge, don't find another dredger, cast PImp, discard the lone Imp, cast my 2nd Study and fail to find another dredger once more. However I hit 2 Bridges and 2 Therapies, so I sac my PImp for a Therapy, taking 2 Glimpse from his hand and then flashback the 2nd one, taking a Sentinel, leaving him with a Cradle, a Dryad Arbor and a land.
He scoopes it up 2 turns later.

Sideboarding: +3 Fireblast +1 Darkblast, -1 Thug, -3 Looting

G2: One again he leads with a Llanowar Elf, while I had to mulligan down to 5 and lead with a PImp. He then goes for another 1 mana Elf, Heritage Druid ,Fauna Shaman. Pretty solid, however I have a 2nd turn Coliseum ( yeah a really good mulligan) and proceed to turn my deck upside down. 2 Therapies later he's left with an empty hand but he still topdecks a creature (well I guess this was fair , considering that ~65% of his deck are creatures) and survivals for.... Elvish Visionary!
No Ooze, no Loaming Shaman, just a simple Visionary, sweet.
Long story short: Ichorids and Zombies take him down.

Afterwards he told me that Ooze and Shaman were still in the mail, lucky me.


So yeah I'm a lucksack, but sometimes I'd rather be lucky than good ;).

so long

Felidae_

[Vandalize]

After sweeping 4-0 with Idiotlife.dec and failing 1-3 with PSI in the last 2 weeks I decided to play LEDless Dredge in my weekly local tourney once again ( back to the roots I guess).


R1: Spiral Tide:
G1: He's on the play and starts with a Preordain, while I'm kinda greedy and start with a Carefull Study, in order to roll him over on turn 2 via Coliseum. Unfortunately he has the Force and then proceedes to kill me Turn 3.
Allthough I could have gone for DDD I doubt that the game would have ended in another way, as my only available dredgers where 2 Thugs and in my top 4 cards I had neither Therapy nor Moeba.

Sideboarding: None

G2: He mulligans and I kill him on turn two via Breakthrough, gg.

G3: We both have to mulligan and he leads with Ponder, while I start with a Study, discarding Troll and Imp in the process. On my 2nd turn I go for Coliseum and find allmost everything, except for Therapies, meh. But he doesn't have luck either, so he gets overwhelmed by Ichorids.

Still undefeated against Spiral Tide, sweet.


Round 2: The Gate

G1: He leads with Swamp, go, while I lead with a PImp. On his 2nd turn he destroyes my land with a Wasteland and casts a Innocent Blood, but after discarding Troll, Bridge, Bridge and Ichorid he looks a little sad and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: He trashtalked about him boarding 11 cards and how he would destroy me postboard...
+4 Claim +1 Ray of Revelation ( this guy allways runs a set Leyline and now he plays The Gate, so yeah.... guess this was a nobrainer) -1 Thug, -4 Looting

G2: I have to mulligan to 6 and he slams 3!!! Leylines on the table..... yeah good joke.

Sideboarding: -1 Darkblast +1 Looting ( I don't fear the turn 2 Bob on the play )

G3: I lead with a Putrid Imp, while he doesn't have a Leyline this time, but a turn 1 Thoughtseize, forcing me to discard my Natures Claim, however seeing the Coliseum in my hand made him kinda mad.
Long story short: I dump a good choke of my deck in my yard, pick his hand apart and thats all there is to say.

Afterwards he shows me the following: 4 Leylines, 2 Nihil Spellbomb, 3 Extirpate, 2 Infest... holy cow I guess I was really lucky to win this :S.

Round 3: Burn

G1: He's on the play and I keep a very lose hand: Citadel, 2 Breakthrough, Moeba, Troll, Study, Bridge. So my plan was simple: DDD and then go crasy turn 2 with Breakthrough. He leads with a Goblin Guide, reavealing a 3rd Breakthrough and on my turn I simply draw and discard Troll.
He goes for a turn 2 Hellspark and attacks me down to 13, revealing a Therapy with the Guide. I dredge for my turn and guess what: I don't find another dredger. sweet. So I had to discard the troll again.
On his turn he goes for a Figure of Destiny, recurring his Hellspark and attacks me down to 8 life, while his Guide reaveled a 2nd Troll.
So I finaly dredge into buisness and go for Citadell, Breakthrough, dropping to 5 life.
And then we have a big missunderstanding that leads to my victory, a pretty uncomfortable victory.

Here we go: I have 2 Moebaes, 3 Bridges and a single Therapy, while he has 2 cards in his hand.
I cast my Therapy, ask him whether or not my Bridge trigger resolves and then ask again whether or not Therapy resolves. He asked what he should do in response and I answer: "Fireblast". He thought that this was the card I wanted to name with Therapy and so he revealed his hand, containing 2 PoP. Ofc I was totaly confused, until I realized what just happend. We call a judge and he rules in my favor, as the Therapy was still on the stack when I said Fireblast and as we all know we have to name a card when the Therapy resolves.

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

So far I never used it, allthough I haven't had any situation where I wanted to use it ( i.e. playing against some jerk who really deserves some dirty trick like that), yet.

Well lets go back to the game. He topdecks a land, attacks with his team and I chump his Guide with my Moeabe and block his Figure with a token, leading to 3 more token, no Bridges and an allmost empty board on his side.
3 Ichorids later I bring him down to 3, leaving a lonely token behind to block his Guide. He doesn't draw Lava Axe and we are off to game 2.

Sideboarding: None

G2.: He starts with Mountain, Grafediggers Cage. My jaw nearly drops to the floor while he simply laughs his ass off.

Sideboarding: +2 Grudge +2 Chewer -1 Darkblast -3 Looting

G3.: He mulligans and I start with a Therapy on him, looking for Cage ( in order to win turn 2 with a PImp and a Breakthrough), he reveals a couple of brunspells and no real hate, draws for his turn, smiles and slams Cage on the table. Needles to say I don't find my hate and my lone PImp can'T race him ( who would have guessed).

Afterwards he shows me his boarding: +2 Cage and +2 Volcanic Fallout.... yeah sometimes you win against 9 (11) hate cards and sometimes you lose against 2(4).

Round 4: Combo Elves

G1: I start with a Study, hitting a PImp and another Study, while discarding Bridge and Imp. He simply leads with Llanowar Elf. On my turn I dredge, don't find another dredger, cast PImp, discard the lone Imp, cast my 2nd Study and fail to find another dredger once more. However I hit 2 Bridges and 2 Therapies, so I sac my PImp for a Therapy, taking 2 Glimpse from his hand and then flashback the 2nd one, taking a Sentinel, leaving him with a Cradle, a Dryad Arbor and a land.
He scoopes it up 2 turns later.

Sideboarding: +3 Fireblast +1 Darkblast, -1 Thug, -3 Looting

G2: One again he leads with a Llanowar Elf, while I had to mulligan down to 5 and lead with a PImp. He then goes for another 1 mana Elf, Heritage Druid ,Fauna Shaman. Pretty solid, however I have a 2nd turn Coliseum ( yeah a really good mulligan) and proceed to turn my deck upside down. 2 Therapies later he's left with an empty hand but he still topdecks a creature (well I guess this was fair , considering that ~65% of his deck are creatures) and survivals for.... Elvish Visionary!
No Ooze, no Loaming Shaman, just a simple Visionary, sweet.
Long story short: Ichorids and Zombies take him down.

Afterwards he told me that Ooze and Shaman were still in the mail, lucky me.


So yeah I'm a lucksack, but sometimes I'd rather be lucky than good ;).

so long

Felidae_

Would you mind posting your list? I've dropped LED's as well, since I've started to lose to Artifact GY-Hate again.

This is my current list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

[jares]

Would you mind posting your list? I've dropped LED's as well, since I've started to lose to Artifact GY-Hate again.

This is my current list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
I've been trying to put together an objective analysis of why I prefer to go LEDless (so far), but up until now I haven't had the time to put things down. I'd also be interested to see how the Felidae's LEDless list is constructed.

Here's my list, for reference:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=620282&viewfull=1#post620282

My preferred sideboard inclusions have changed since I ran my list, particularly regarding the inclusion of Dread Return in the sideboard. Nothing is set in stone though (except the core, of course).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

So far I never used it, allthough I haven't had any situation where I wanted to use it ( i.e. playing against some jerk who really deserves some dirty trick like that), yet.

I find this interesting, because I've NEVER done this...

The way with which I usually do it is to not name a card at all, and wait for my opponent's confirmation that Cabal Therapy has resolved. Seems like there would be cases where these "tricks" would be useful though. :tongue:

Kind Regards,
jares

[NecroYawgmoth]

Out of curiosity: How often do you use dirty tricks with Therapy ( i.e. casting Therapy, then immediately announce something ( lets say Brainstorm), then wait if he casts the Brainstorm and then name a different card, or simply name a card and then ask "So does Therapy resolves?" while hoping that he will reveal his hand in the process)?

I sometimes mumble a cardname and pretend to think a bit before playing a Cabal Therapy, and then name something completely different but that's about it.



Would you mind posting your list? I've dropped LED's as well, since I've started to lose to Artifact GY-Hate again.

What? Artifact hate gets played again? :eyebrow: I only see Snapstraction everywhere. And rarely a Cage here and then.


@jares: You are the uncrowned king of doubleposts. :laugh:

[jares]

@jares: You are the uncrowned king of doubleposts. :laugh:
Sorry if these so-called "doubleposts" are seen as eyesores by some. I find it easier and more organized to respond to separate discussions... errr... separately. :laugh:

I'm actually just waiting for this zilla person to do something about it if indeed these doubleposts go against conventional netiquette. If that happens, then I would be the crowned king of doubleposts! :tongue:

Kind Regards,
jares

[NecroYawgmoth]

I personally don't care if you double, triple or even quadruple post. :laugh:

It's just something I noticed the last x pages. :tongue:

I just think it could annoy some user / mod because of the forum rules / netiquette, like you just said.

[HokusSchmokus]

I use this kind of therapy tricks every time I think it gives me an advantage. Which is less often then you might think. I already thought about using it every time whem I 'm at BoM to properly rep the dredge.

[Felidae]

@ Vindicate:
4 City
4 Mine
4 Coliseum
3 Citadell

4 PImp
4 Moeba
4 Ichorid
4 Troll
4 Imp
4 Thug

1 Darkblast

4 Bridge

4 Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Study
4 Looting

Side:
2 Grudge
2 Chewer
4 Claim
1 Ray
3 Firestorm
1 Darkbalst
2 Coffin Purge


@ Hokus:
Please take a photo of some french dude who is totaly pissed, due to this trick :D.

[Gui]

Me thinks newdredgeplayer is trying to troll us with his 'new tech' of entomb.

We need to put links in the new primer where entomb has been discussed to death throughout this thread.
Oh and unmask while we are at it.

Yeah, why not, let's discuss Entomb yet once more, again, since now it brings Faithless Looting as well... oh wai-

Hollywood, you there man? Be sure to put links to these discussions ^^

[HokusSchmokus]

@ Hokus:
Please take a photo of some french dude who is totaly pissed, due to this trick :D.

Well, that won't be better than last year, Timo told me he was asked if he played "the german deck", he obv. didn't know what to answer. He plays out bazaar, the guy sighed and explained that he was absolutely destroyed by two other germans this day with the same deck. Priceless.
If I take a photo though, it will be a french guy. I cannot express my hate for them just in words.

[igri_is_a_bk]

When I don't draw LED + Breakthrough/Looting, the card I want most in my hand is Putrid Imp. Why are you LEDless guys dropping Tribe for Looting? The advantage of not playing the artifact is that you're more conservative, and better tuned to face hate. If you don't play Tribe, I think you're using a strictly inferior LED version (without LED lol). Hopefully that makes sense.

Edit: I mean, just think about it. Right now, your deck isn't any better at fighting hate than LED and it's slower. Where's the advantage?

[joemauer]

When I don't draw LED + Breakthrough/Looting, the card I want most in my hand is Putrid Imp. Why are you LEDless guys dropping Tribe for Looting? The advantage of not playing the artifact is that you're more conservative, and better tuned to face hate. If you don't play Tribe, I think you're using a strictly inferior LED version (without LED lol). Hopefully that makes sense.

Edit: I mean, just think about it. Right now, your deck isn't any better at fighting hate than LED and it's slower. Where's the advantage?

They just saved $120++ by switching to LEDless!
They probably use Geico for their insurance company as well.

[HokusSchmokus]

Because you can still play 8(!!) fricking studies???
I mean, that's by far the best draw spell we have Oo

[igri_is_a_bk]

That's not the point of LEDless. You aren't trying to max out draw spells in that version.

What good turn one play do you have besides Putrid Imp in that version?

[jares]

Because you can still play 8(!!) fricking studies???
I mean, that's by far the best draw spell we have Oo
I agree with HokusSchmokus. Also, aside from the fact that increasing the number of Careful Study in the deck is a good thing, it's also worth noting that both Careful Study and Tireless Tribe serve two roles when included in the deck (Discard+Draw, and Discard+WarmBody, respectively). With the common denominator being the capability to discard, and based on what I want to achieve in my LEDless build, I prefer to have the extra draw cards (or "digging cards", in reference to the occasional need to search for anti-hate) in my deck.

That's not the point of LEDless. You aren't trying to max out draw spells in that version.

What good turn one play do you have besides Putrid Imp in that version?
I'm not sure of what you believe to be "the point of LEDless" is, but I don't base my builds on "maxing-out" on anything - so, in a way, I agree with you. :tongue:

To answer your question, I have found that playing Careful Study or Faithless Looting are very good Turn-1 plays (of course, like in any opening play, these considerations are subjective to the rest of your opening hand). I expect you to disagree with this (given that you were even asking this question), but I encourage you to look into it in testing and see for yourself.

Cheers,
jares

[igri_is_a_bk]

None of you understand what I'm saying? You are trying to build the deck like LED and in doing so are creating a worse version than either. I played the standard list without LED for 14 months and not once did I consider Careful Study the best card in the deck.

The point of removing LED would be to play a different version, with less conditional turn one plays. Right now, you haven't done that. You made your first turn significantly worse, in fact. You also hurt your g2 and g3 by trying to mirror LED's style.

I just can't wrap my head around your guys' thinking here.

[HokusSchmokus]

This is even more ridiulous than suggesting entomb. There is no way a dredge 12 card/ dig me to hate card is even slightly worse than tribe. Which does almost nothing on its own btw. And the point of LEDless dredge is to kill my opponent. What else? This can also be achieved with tribes but hey,why not speed my deck up a turn if I can.

[igri_is_a_bk]

This is even more ridiulous than suggesting entomb. There is no way a dredge 12 card/ dig me to hate card is even slightly worse than tribe. Which does almost nothing on its own btw. And the point of LEDless dredge is to kill my opponent. What else? This can also be achieved with tribes but hey,why not speed my deck up a turn if I can.

See, this is exactly what I'm saying. If you want to speed up your deck, play LED!

[HokusSchmokus]

See, this is exactly what I'm saying. If you want to speed up your deck, play LED!

So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.

Edit: on a sidenote, I realls think about not posting here anymore. Call ne an elitist,arrogant scumbag, don't care. I came here because this is a competitive forum, but in reality; all we do(exspecially in this thread)is argue over which suboptimal card choice is better, back that up with poor reasoning and some top8 finishes and move on to the next bad decklist. I'm really sick of it.
At Igri: nothing personal, I feel like that at least for 2 months now.

[jares]

See, this is exactly what I'm saying. If you want to speed up your deck, play LED!
I'm sorry that I haven't had the time to write down my analysis of why I've chosen to exclude LED from my list, but I fully intend to... when I become less lazy. :tongue:

At this point, I haven't read any objective justifications for any of the points that you've raised, so I'll just take it as subjective preference.

Cheers,
jares

[igri_is_a_bk]

So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.


I'm on a posting frenzy, but my break is almost over so it'll have to end after this one.

Yes, absolutely. You definitely chose not play LED in order to be slower and better g2 and 3. How can that be argued otherwise?

What I'm saying, ultimately, is that I would consider there to be two variations of this deck that are best at what they do. First, the quadlaser list. Second, the list with 15 rainbow lands, 8 dorks and 4-of everything.

I believe if you play a deck that's in the middle of those two, you are choosing a build that isn't strongest at anything. So, again, I ask where is the advantage of those lists?

[jares]

So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.

Edit: on a sidenote, I realls think about not posting here anymore. Call ne an elitist,arrogant scumbag, don't care. I came here because this is a competitive forum, but in reality; all we do(exspecially in this thread)is argue over which suboptimal card choice is better, back that up with poor reasoning and some top8 finishes and move on to the next bad decklist. I'm really sick of it.
At Igri: nothing personal, I feel like that at least for 2 months now.
Count me in on feeling this way.

Frankly, I find The Chosen Ones to be the ones that are acting like elitists, etc., etc. I also feel that I've saturated the learning that I can gather from this forum since I started reading each of your posts to eventually join-in on the fun. Kudos to all that have consistently provided sound advice - I surely wouldn't have learned so much if it weren't for you! :cool:

Cheers,
jares

[K1w1]

This is even more ridiulous than suggesting entomb. There is no way a dredge 12 card/ dig me to hate card is even slightly worse than tribe. Which does almost nothing on its own btw. And the point of LEDless dredge is to kill my opponent. What else? This can also be achieved with tribes but hey,why not speed my deck up a turn if I can.

FKZ :D
Joking. But if you say THIS you can also play FKZ and try to win turn 1-2.

[jares]

I'm on a posting frenzy, but my break is almost over so it'll have to end after this one.

Be careful... you might dethrone me as the uncrowned king of doubleposts because of this frenzy. :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

I'm on a posting frenzy, but my break is almost over so it'll have to end after this one.

Yes, absolutely. You definitely chose not play LED in order to be slower and better g2 and 3. How can that be argued otherwise?

What I'm saying, ultimately, is that I would consider there to be two variations of this deck that are best at what they do. First, the quadlaser list. Second, the list with 15 rainbow lands, 8 dorks and 4-of everything.

I believe if you play a deck that's in the middle of those two, you are choosing a build that isn't strongest at anything. So, again, I ask where is the advantage of those lists?
I am a firm believer thad carddraw is better g2/3 than discard. Also even without looting I would not play Tribes over Firestorm.
Kiwi:: FKZ is a joke at what he does.

[Gui]

What I'm saying, ultimately, is that I would consider there to be two variations of this deck that are best at what they do. First, the quadlaser list. Second, the list with 15 rainbow lands, 8 dorks and 4-of everything.

I believe if you play a deck that's in the middle of those two, you are choosing a build that isn't strongest at anything. So, again, I ask where is the advantage of those lists?

I don't think there's a list with 15 rainbows. And I tought that running 11 rainbows already made lists more reliable against hate than using 8+LEDs.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I don't think there's a list with 15 rainbows. And I tought that running 11 rainbows already made lists more reliable against hate than using 8+LEDs.

Yeah, typo. I just meant 15 lands total.

[Izor]

So you deliberately chose LEDless to be slower? Why is it not good to speed up a deck,getting less dead draws, better ways to fight current hate and a stronger early.game in the process? Sure I can think of situations where tribe is better, but all of them are postboard.

Obviously, one does not choose to go LEDless in order to be slower. That argument does not make sense. One might do it in order to be more consistent.
Why do you get more dead draws with Tribe?
You also don't get better ways to fight hate in general. You get the chance to race Ooze and Snapcaster-Extraction, but you're more susceptible to all kinds of hate cards by default, because you discard your whole hand in one shot. I thought that was obvious.

I'll give you some situations:

- You have only one Dredger and don't waht to whiff on your first Dredge on turn one (say after you crack LED in resp to a draw effect)
- You need one more body for a Cabal Therapy in say a combo matchup, where it really matters to Therapy right now.
- If you don't have a draw effect in your hand, Tribe is miles better than LED in that it keeps your engine going while blocking their threats while LED will leave you without any ressources and chance of winning if your first Dredge doesn't hit more Dredgers or at least a Looting (which doesn't really get you anywhere without said Dredgers).



Edit: on a sidenote, I realls think about not posting here anymore. Call ne an elitist,arrogant scumbag, don't care. I came here because this is a competitive forum, but in reality; all we do(exspecially in this thread)is argue over which suboptimal card choice is better, back that up with poor reasoning and some top8 finishes and move on to the next bad decklist. I'm really sick of it.
At Igri: nothing personal, I feel like that at least for 2 months now.

I can understand your feelings about a lot of the content in this thread. Of course you're free to do whatever you want, but I wouldn't leave the discussion because of that.


EDIT: snap Eh, got a bit too hateful about things that are irrelevant to the discussion.


But this is an international forum. I'm not going to guess how many people in the world play this deck. You won't stop people from bringing up suboptimal card choices from time to time. If I'm new to this deck and have never played it before, I might think that Entomb is actually good. Many people who bring such cards up here are saying that they're looking for help with their build, they don't claim that they had an enlightenment that their list is the one and only way to go (this is much more the German style of thinking).



As of my personal thinking, I think that LED-Lootings is insane and I definitely want to play it. The thing is just that I will not play it unless I'm able to fit at least 14 lands in my main deck as well, and I haven't found any way to achieve this until now.

[HokusSchmokus]

Also you misunderstood me there. I am too tired and lazy to clarify now and I do not think its worthwhile. I don't quite see where you been hateful though.
Regarding the new people playing this deck: we desperately need a new primer to refer to imo. I am glad Hollywood works on this as discussions will hopefully be less tirering once the new primer is done.

[Felidae]

That's one of the reasons why I love this fourm - you can leave for a couple of hours and when you come back another pointless discussion has started.

So lets clear up some stuff.

First of all the biggest question: Why did I or anyone else chooses to paly LEDless Dredge over LED Dredge ?

Ofc I can only speak for my self and the answer is: I don't choose one version above the other, as I've played both of them and will continue to do so.
Playing in a local tourney with 16~22 people usually means that people will catch up with their sideboards pretty quick and that you'll face more hate, thus playing LEDless, which is in the better choice to fight diverse hate ( Leylines, Cages, etc.), seemed like the way to go.

Now playing in a monthly tourney ( 50+ player) is a hole different story. In those situations I'd allway choose to play LED Dredge, because it gives you the edge in certain games you wouldn't be able to win with LEDless Dredge ( well I don't think I told you anything new, but if we'd cut everything in this thread that has been said more then once we could easily delet over 140 pages :S ).

In the end it's allways a matter of the metagame and the personal preference.
And I actually doubt that you can't get your hands on a playset of LED if you want to play them ( c'mon someone allways has a set he could borrow you).

However what really made me mad is that you argue against Looting in LEDless Dredge in favor of Tribe.

Tribe has been outdated since Mental Misstep and since Maverick started to be popular.
If I had to cut Looting from my list ( lets ssay because they got banned, as this is the only scenario I could imagine where I wanted to cut them) I'd play the playset Firestorm again.

And allthough I'm sure that somewhere in this thread we have allready listed the reasons to run Looting and compared it to Tribe.... ah screw it, here we go again:

Looting:
+discard outled
+drawspell (enables wins faster / digs for hate)
+flashback

-no continuing discard outled

Tribe:
+continuig discard outled
+body ( good in the defense / beeing able to get saced for Therapy)

-obviously no drawspell



Now lets take in mind that the hate we face nowadays usually isn't artifact based ( if we ignore Cage for a while), thus continuing discardoutleds aren't as important as they used to be.

And with the biggest pluspoint gone there is now way you could bring up any argument that would made him better then Looting, period.


What good turn one play do you have besides Putrid Imp in that version?

Well lets see:
On the play
-Putrid Imp
-Study
-Looting
-Therapy
-passing the turn in order to DDD

On the draw
-Putrid Imp
-Study
-Looting
-Therapy
-DDD

[igri_is_a_bk]

Nobody is debating why you'd play one version over the other.

As for Tribe, I don't care if you think Looting is better. I will forever appreciate your post though. You spent a lot of time, and I didn't even read it after the first line.

[Michael Keller]

You all realize that a new primer is in the works, right? If you don't feel like posting in here - don't. But if you're going to make intelligible and productive conversation - which I highly recommend and encourage - then everyone needs to get the sand out of their vaginas and try to relax.

[NecroYawgmoth]

You all realize that a new primer is in the works, right? If you don't feel like posting in here - don't. But if you're going to make intelligible and productive conversation - which I highly recommend and encourage - then everyone needs to get the sand out of their vaginas and try to relax.

I can't wait.

I alwas feel happy, when I have some GOOD Dredge-stuff to read.

Hurry on. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[HokusSchmokus]

Nobody is debating why you'd play one version over the other.

As for Tribe, I don't care if you think Looting is better. I will forever appreciate your post though. You spent a lot of time, and I didn't even read it after the first line.

So you are in an argument, ask a question that indicates the reason fir your choice, somebody makes an effort to articulate his thoughts and answers your incredibly stupid question and you react to that by not only ignoring his answer but also insult his efforts by making it sound ridiculous? You,sir, are the most insulting person I witnessed on this forums so far,aside from naziperm maybe. I currently rage on so many levels,it isn't even funny anymore. I find this incredibly rude. It's a slap to the face and it didn't even affect me directly. If you don't care,don't bring this issue up.

@Hollywood didn't wanna seem like a diva. Looking forward to the new primer

[igri_is_a_bk]

Everyone's all like...

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/L7sq3.gif

I genuinely don't care about Looting vs. Tribe. It's a non-issue for me, personally, because I use LED.

[Izor]

I don't quite see where you been hateful though.

Not hateful towards you or anyone specific in these forums :laugh:

I was just drifting away from the topic and thought it was irrelevant to the discussion.



The one thing that we should learn from it is that there is no one best build. Whether LED vs LEDless or Tribe vs Lootings in LEDless or whatever, as long as you know what you're doing and why you're doing it, you're fine.

[jares]

The one thing that we should learn from it is that there is no one best build. Whether LED vs LEDless or Tribe vs Lootings in LEDless or whatever, as long as you know what you're doing and why you're doing it, you're fine.
There we go. :laugh:

Amidst all the opinions floating around, the best we can do in a discussion is to properly present our arguments by providing the solid reasoning for it. If people still disagree, then we can all agree to disagree and wish each other well. :wink:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

As for Tribe, I don't care if you think Looting is better. I will forever appreciate your post though. You spent a lot of time, and I didn't even read it after the first line.
I just noticed that, if you were responding directly to Felidae in your post, then you surely wouldn't have been able to respond in the following way if you indeed ignored the rest of the post after reading just the first line:

Nobody is debating why you'd play one version over the other.
Try reading Felidae's post again, as I believe that it answers most, if not all, of your questions.

Cheers,
jares

[ivanpei]

Ever since I tested led-faithless, there's no argument, ledless is obsolete. The power of the combo is just insane and there is no way I'm going back to ledless. Want to fight hate better? Play some extra Rainbows in the board to help cast claim/chain.

For those who don't play LED because you don't have them, sorry bro. You're missing out.

[jares]

Ever since I tested led-faithless, there's no argument, ledless is obsolete. The power of the combo is just insane and there is no way I'm going back to ledless.
More of the same subjective argumentation. Nothing new - in fact, it's becoming more common. I guess that, at the end of the day, we are all entitled to our opinion.

For those who don't play LED because you don't have them, sorry bro. You're missing out.
The availability of a card should NEVER be a consideration when evaluating things at a competitive level. I suggest that, moving forward, we assume that the availability of a card is NEVER a factor - I expect this assumption to save us time and text.

Cheers,
jares

[AEnesidem]

Ever since I tested led-faithless, there's no argument, ledless is obsolete. The power of the combo is just insane and there is no way I'm going back to ledless. Want to fight hate better? Play some extra Rainbows in the board to help cast claim/chain.

For those who don't play LED because you don't have them, sorry bro. You're missing out.

What's happening on this page?

Some people are just checking IF LED is really the way to go and is not just a hype. That's a good thing, cause they objectively check instead of posting useless biased comments that add nothingto the conversation. And BTW gold lands+ chain/claim don't help against crypt/relic.

I understand igri's point. What he meant, and what i feel the others didn't really understand well is: (tell me if i'm wrong)
if you are playing ledless with lootings instead of tribe, aren't you just playing a slower dredge deck due to the absence of LED?
He just meant to say that for him the whole point of playing ledless is having tireless tribe to fight artifact hate.
i don't know why he got all rude isntead of explaning what he meant though.

anyway, Have been playing a quadlaser oriented list and i have been putting up some decent results. I am probably going to take it to the Belgian legacy cup qualifiers and i'll post results afterwards. The quadlaser list takes away a lot of the randomness of dredge which is exactly what it needs. I played a small tournament at my LGS. I ended 3-1 i lost to a pro player with a UG infect brew :/. The other dredge player played the more combo oriented version and seemed to perform poorly.

[Izor]

Ever since I tested led-faithless, there's no argument, ledless is obsolete. The power of the combo is just insane and there is no way I'm going back to ledless. Want to fight hate better? Play some extra Rainbows in the board to help cast claim/chain.

For those who don't play LED because you don't have them, sorry bro. You're missing out.

For those of you who don't add anything relevant to the discussion by not giving any arguments, sorry bro. You're missing out.

I've owned a playset for... er... four years? I just eschew it at the moment because of consistency and smoothness issues (yes, even with the German 4-off list).



LEDless with Lotings over Tribe is by no means a strictly inferior version of LED. That list still features what I consider one of the most important things in a Dredge deck: 15 lands. Also, why is it Lootings OR Tribe? I play 3 of each in my LEDless build, which is in my own expierience the best Dredge build I've ever played in my life. At least until someone shows me a reliable LED list with 14 lands.

[Final Fortune]

I think justifying Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe as defense against Tormod's Crypt etc. is incredibly loose reasoning, and while I wont argue Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe reduce the impact of Tormod's Crypt etc. the time they buy, followed by a clock, is still a threat. Saying Nature's Claim doesn't help vs Tormod's Crypt etc. is beyond retarded, removing the hate is always going to be better than trying to play around it with Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe because you're A) reliant on holding a second Dredger to be able to play around it at all and B) always subject to when he chooses to activate his hate. Even LEDless Dredge ~2010 used Ancient Grudge specifically against Tormod's Crypt, when Tormod's Crypt was the only relevant graveyard hate in the format and Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe's added resiliency was a significant boon. In 2012, with Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre, Grafdigger's Cage in addition to the Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progentius/Nihil Spellbomb effects, as well as the occassional Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, whatever the Black Trap is called and Wheel of Sun and Moon the effectiveness of LEDless Dredge is significantly less now than it was then because you can't predict the opponent's hate.

As much as admire Jares' dogged open mindedness, the problem is that a lot of people are testing Dredge now that never played Dredge then and they're either ignorant of why the deck was built the way it was or they are possibly playing in a metagame with an underdeveloped SBing strategy vs Dredge as a whole.

The simple argument is that LED allows you to win games that no other card can allow you to win when facing decks like Storm, Reanimator or even Elves, while Tireless Tribe only helps slightly vs hate that may not even exist in your opponent's SBs. I'm also thoroughly unconvinced Tireless Tribe is any more consistent than LED after the printing of Faithless Looting, so even that argument is outdated. I don't think Tireless Tribe is necessarily a bad card, but it seems like SB material to me at best.

Edit: Also I don't think you guys should be narrowing your argument to Tireless Tribe vs Faithless Looting, if you're looking for space Breakthrough vs Faithless Looting isn't a given.

[NecroYawgmoth]

The availability of a card should NEVER be a consideration when evaluating things at a competitive level. I suggest that, moving forward, we assume that the availability of a card is NEVER a factor - I expect this assumption to save us time and text.


What you say here is obviously totally right. The problem is, that LED is more than any other card in other deck threads here is a money-factor for some people. You see this in the past of the Dredge-thread. xx people were saying that LEDless is better, but they never owned or played with LEDs. It's different if someone is saying LED is bad, becasue he has played with both versions often enough by telling you so, or just says LED is bad, but he never played them. I never owned any LEDs and I said in the past multiple times that LED-Dredge is worse than LEDless. Nowadays I still don't own any LEDs and I am saying that LED-Dredge is better thanks to Looting.



At least until someone shows me a reliable LED list with 14 lands.

Out of my head: german Quadlazer list -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Ichoird, +2 Tarnsihed Citadel?

[Felidae]

@igri_is_a_bk:
If AEnesidem is right then I really missed your point.
As long as any of us keeps winning with the list he likes the most I don't see much reason to talk about this any further.

[Final Fortune]

I don't really have mana issues pre-board with Quad Lazer, are you SBing Tarnished Citadels post-board to support your answers and Faithless Looting? You can probably board an Ichorid and a Golgari Thug to play the 2 extra lands MD, but really the only cards you should have trouble resolving are Putrid Imp and Cabal Therapy. If you choose to draw game 1 as a default, you don't really need to be able to cast Putrid Imp that often and Cabal Therapy always has its alternate casting cost.

That aside, do you guys who are playing the Dread Return/Flayer killer need Bridge from Below in your deck to pull it off? I was thinking it might be interesting to trade between the combo kill and the bridge engine in the SB, but I have no idea how that'd functionally work out.

[joemauer]

I kinda agree with Final Fortune on this one.

LEDless was made obsolete when people started playing maindeck oozes and complete random out of the board. Winning turn one or two is sometimes better than trying to fight who knows what kind of hate that was brought in.

[Klazam]

Taking out the Bridges for anything kills Dredge. the bridge engine is one of the most powerful things that dredge has to offer.

[AEnesidem]

I think justifying Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe as defense against Tormod's Crypt etc. is incredibly loose reasoning, and while I wont argue Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe reduce the impact of Tormod's Crypt etc. the time they buy, followed by a clock, is still a threat. Saying Nature's Claim doesn't help vs Tormod's Crypt etc. is beyond retarded, removing the hate is always going to be better than trying to play around it with Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe because you're A) reliant on holding a second Dredger to be able to play around it at all and B) always subject to when he chooses to activate his hate. Even LEDless Dredge ~2010 used Ancient Grudge specifically against Tormod's Crypt, when Tormod's Crypt was the only relevant graveyard hate in the format and Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe's added resiliency was a significant boon. In 2012, with Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre, Grafdigger's Cage in addition to the Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progentius/Nihil Spellbomb effects, as well as the occassional Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, whatever the Black Trap is called and Wheel of Sun and Moon the effectiveness of LEDless Dredge is significantly less now than it was then because you can't predict the opponent's hate.

As much as admire Jares' dogged open mindedness, the problem is that a lot of people are testing Dredge now that never played Dredge then and they're either ignorant of why the deck was built the way it was or they are possibly playing in a metagame with an underdeveloped SBing strategy vs Dredge as a whole.

The simple argument is that LED allows you to win games that no other card can allow you to win when facing decks like Storm, Reanimator or even Elves, while Tireless Tribe only helps slightly vs hate that may not even exist in your opponent's SBs. I'm also thoroughly unconvinced Tireless Tribe is any more consistent than LED after the printing of Faithless Looting, so even that argument is outdated. I don't think Tireless Tribe is necessarily a bad card, but it seems like SB material to me at best.

Edit: Also I don't think you guys should be narrowing your argument to Tireless Tribe vs Faithless Looting, if you're looking for space Breakthrough vs Faithless Looting isn't a given.

So i am beyond retarded for not needing nature's claim to win against crypt/relic?
Do you side in nature's claim against crypt/relic?
cause to be honest i never did that, i even stopped sideboarding ancient grudge because i could win without it. Not that i don't have a hard time beating artifact hate but i don't see how dilluting my deck and trying to draw a nature's claim will win me that game.

[Final Fortune]

There's a difference between the deck not needing Nature's Claim to defeat Tormod's Crypt and Nature's Claim not helping the deck defeat Tormod's Crypt at all, the second statement is idiotic. Having answers vs the opponent's hate increases your win percentage against said hate, usually I'll board in Nature's Claim for Lion's Eye Diamond game 3 once I'm certain the opponent is using strictly Tormod's Crypt effects.

[jares]

As much as admire Jares' dogged open mindedness, the problem is that a lot of people are testing Dredge now that never played Dredge then and they're either ignorant of why the deck was built the way it was or they are possibly playing in a metagame with an underdeveloped SBing strategy vs Dredge as a whole.

I don't think that this will ever go away - we'll always have new players discover this archetype from time to time. I was personally fortunate to have learned a lot from this forum when I started thinking competitively, and we can only hope that the newer players would be able to do the same.

As a friend once told me, "the trick is to sift through the stones and find the gems". Having said that, I feel that the problem isn't that we're getting new players and dealing with their ignorance - I think that the problem is that we're throwing too many stones around, and burying the gems in the process. If you haven't noticed, we rarely get anywhere with any of the discussions anymore.

I hope that the new primer would be able to help with these concerns.

Kind Regards,
jares

[igri_is_a_bk]

I think some of us are too concerned with direct empirical data as proof. We have to start appreciating each others' experiences, because Magic is such a high variance game and that is multiplied by the fact we play the most open format. The luxury of "x should mean y" is far from true, and I think we know that, so let's avoid theory crafting for a while and just discuss what we actually experience.

I was trying to help the non-LED players by suggesting they stick to Tribe, instead of Looting. My (literally) over a year of experience with the deck has shown me how good he really is. If that's not how you feel the deck is best, don't do it. We don't have to argue something if we're just gonna entrench ourselves in our original positions.

For this next question, I don't want people to think I'm asking aggressively, but nobody has answered it yet. How is the LEDless version that tries to play exactly like LED not an inferior build? To me, that's the question that needs to be answered. The answer, "It doesn't." isn't gonna work for me, because it really does. Think about it for a sec.

@Izor - I posted a 14 land LED build like the day Looting was spoiled. I think I even claimed that we'd have to increase the gold land count for it to work. That turned out to be not so true though.

[Izor]

Out of my head: german Quadlazer list -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Ichoird, +2 Tarnsihed Citadel?

This is probably the best way to do it, yes. Although half a year ago, I'm sure people would have told you to cut anything but PImps from this deck, no matter what.


I don't like sideboarding lands. This deck's mana base works a bit differently from other decks mana bases. While other decks have to consider how many lands they want to draw until turn X, and calculate a quotient that can be representative for the number of lands they'll need to run, this isn't quite the case in Dredge. This deck's mana base is solely built to just draw A land, because that's all we need to operate .At the same time, we desperately need it or we won't be operating at all.

The number of lands in this deck wants to give us the best possible chance to open with at least one. The situations pre and post board aren't actually that different. I want that chance all the time, not only post board. LED Dredge mulligans more frequently than my current LEDless build. I won't take LED over LEDless to a tournament until I have fixed that. My LEDless build has never had any major trouble against Scavenging Ooze or Extraction, but it just loses fewer games to random mulligans to 4.

[NewDredgePlayer]

For those of you who don't add anything relevant to the discussion by not giving any arguments, sorry bro. You're missing out.

I've owned a playset for... er... four years? I just eschew it at the moment because of consistency and smoothness issues (yes, even with the German 4-off list).



LEDless with Lotings over Tribe is by no means a strictly inferior version of LED. That list still features what I consider one of the most important things in a Dredge deck: 15 lands. Also, why is it Lootings OR Tribe? I play 3 of each in my LEDless build, which is in my own expierience the best Dredge build I've ever played in my life. At least until someone shows me a reliable LED list with 14 lands.

How about 4 Gemstone, 4 City of Brass, 4 Tarnished Citadel, 2 Cephalid Coliseums? LED is a careful study in disguise for the most part so cutting back on draw is ok. I'm actually playing zero coliseums (mulligans suck), 12 rainbow lands and I am not mulling nearly as much as before. Of course its less explosive but them are the trade offs.

[NewDredgePlayer]

Me thinks newdredgeplayer is trying to troll us with his 'new tech' of entomb.

We need to put links in the new primer where entomb has been discussed to death throughout this thread.
Oh and unmask while we are at it.

Troll? no. If I was trolling I'd talk about how Joe Mauer, the baseball player, is single handedly killing the twins. He was injured for a large part of 2011 and played crappy when he did play. Not to mention his huge contract makes it harder for the Twins to get quality free agents :smile:

Like I said I'm new to dredge and I wanted to make it more consistent. The deck mulls better than most decks but it doesn't mean I want to mull ALL the time. Entomb makes the deck more consistent so I wanted to give it a shot. I'm not saying its the right move but its worth trying since I've never played with entomb dredge before.

So far, just gold fishing I mull noticeably less and the deck is about a turn slower (cephalid coliseums are gone too). Is consistency worth the slower deck? I dont know yet, but it's one question I hope to answer soon.

[NewDredgePlayer]

What kind of hands would you guys keep (decklist doesnt matter)?

For example I would keep any hand with

Hand A:
1 or more Rainbow Land(s)
1 or more Discard Outlet(s)
1 or more Dredger(s)

Hand B:
1 or more Rainbow Land(s)
2 or more Draw Spell(s)
1 or more Dredger(s)

Hand C:
1 or more Rainbow Land(s)
1 or more LED(s)
1 or more Faithless Looting
1 or more Dredger(s)

[joemauer]

Troll? no. If I was trolling I'd talk about how Joe Mauer, the baseball player, is single handedly killing the twins. He was injured for a large part of 2011 and played crappy when he did play. Not to mention his huge contract makes it harder for the Twins to get quality free agents :smile:


When you can hit home runs like me, then you can trash talk me all you want.

[Que]

When you can hit home runs like me, then you can trash talk me all you want.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

[jares]

I think some of us are too concerned with direct empirical data as proof. We have to start appreciating each others' experiences, because Magic is such a high variance game and that is multiplied by the fact we play the most open format. The luxury of "x should mean y" is far from true, and I think we know that, so let's avoid theory crafting for a while and just discuss what we actually experience.

I second this motion, with emphasis on appreciating "each other's experiences". I believe that the point of this whole forum is having the benefit of learning from each other's victories - and especially from each other's mistakes.

What we need to be cautious about, though, is treating our own experiences as absolute. Until the time comes where "the luxury of having X to mean Y" is in our laps, we should continue to keep an open mind and appreciate each other's experiences.

As for what is absolute, I believe that we all understand how this is defined, and we should continue to keep ourselves grounded on what is unquestionable while maintaining a healthy discussion of what is subjective.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Like I said I'm new to dredge and I wanted to make it more consistent...

...So far, just gold fishing I mull noticeably less and the deck is about a turn slower (cephalid coliseums are gone too). Is consistency worth the slower deck? I dont know yet, but it's one question I hope to answer soon.
I've noticed that the word "consistency" is mentioned a lot in these forums, and, more often than not, the claim of consistency is not properly supported.

For the purposes of card-gaming, I've found that "Consistency" is defined by the frequency with which a certain event can take place given a finite number of sample instances. Shown below is an example:

"Dredge is able to consistently win Game 1."

Note that the above statement does not state that Dredge will always win Game 1 - it simply means that Dredge will often win Game 1. What we really want to find out, though, is "how often" Dredge is able to win Game 1. Shown below are examples of how we should state our claims of consistency:

"Dredge is able to win Game 1 with a consistency of 75%."
"Dredge is able to win against Leyline of the Void with a consistency of 5%."

Note that both high and low levels of consistency are shown in these examples.

In summary, I find that it's not enough to just say that "this configuration is more consistent" - we have to have a numerical basis for what we want to refer to as "consistency". Otherwise, the best we can do is to state that we "feel" like this or that is consistent - and the good thing about that is that no one can argue with you about something that is subjective to your experience.

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[NecroYawgmoth]

@igri_is_a_bk: The thing is that Careful Study was like the BEST card in LED-less, and now we have 8. And you seriously want to play Tribes over another Study-Effect. We don't life in an era where every gravehate is Crypt and Relic this is why Imps and Tribes got a lot weaker.

@Izor: Like I said above:Half a year ago not everyone was playing the Snapstraction train. Imos got worse with the new hate, because they are better against Crypts / Relics than against Extractions.

@NewDredgePlayer: In all seriousness... Where does the deck get more constant with Entombs?

@jares: You just got beaten by a triple post from NewDredgePlayer. =P :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Michael Keller]

Running the pimp ice-train all the way to the Baltimore Legacy Open on Sunday:

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2 [TO] Ichorid
1 [M12] Flayer of the Hatebound

// Spells
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
3 [TO] Breakthrough
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Ichorid
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [TO] Breakthrough
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [DKA] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [OD] Coffin Purge

I'm running Nature's Claim over the Chain spot as a definitive solution to permanent-based hate. Coffin Purge fills the role of dealing with annoying garbage like Life from the Loam and its targets, in addition to fighting other graveyard strategies. Chain to me doesn't really solve many answers (to me) that Claim can't already handle outside of Show and Tell decks, and by the time they get a chance to swing with anything you should already be grinding your gears.

Also, I am still sticking with twelve dredgers, as I feel that is the correct number. That Darkblast has won me several rounds in the last few weeks and it's ace against a lot of the format's prevalent creatures. It's also a proactive card that can dredge and put itself into the graveyard - something functionally that is incredibly important over the fourth Thug, which sits in your hand. At least Darkblast gives you the out you need to start dredging. The card is sick-good right now.

Paradise over Citadel. Lightning Bolt is everywhere at the moment and I'm not having three more damage on my plate when I already have to deal with other shit. I never forget to throw back a Chain Lightning if I have mana up - a play that has threatened victory over several players in recent weeks due to critical misplay. Paradise can make awkward situations with Coliseum, but that is something I've learned to accept and play around correctly, and it is rarely - if ever - an issue.

The fourth Breakthrough sits waiting in the sideboard for the Combo match-ups, including the Therapy which also comes in for Control. A big part of me wants to main-deck the Iona over Flayer, as I fully expect a lot of High Tide at this event. Granted, Flayer is damage on site and can threaten lethal, but Iona can virtually be just as good in the match-ups where you'd wished you had her instead.

Ray of Revelation gives you inevitability against problematic enchantments, which is also where Flayer shines (against cards like Elephant Grass, Moat and such). The list is incredibly powerful and I've been tweaking it now for some time, and I don't plan on coming home unless it's with that trophy.

[jjjoness']

With only 2 DR, how often do you find yourself in the situation where you want to flay your opponent, but can't reanimate the big troll?

[jares]

@NewDredgePlayer: In all seriousness... Where does the deck get more constant with Entombs?
I think that what he might mean by that is that Entomb increases the redundancy of certain components of the deck, which is, in all fairness, something that does add to a deck's consistency. The point that might get overlooked here, though, is that the value of all the other cards that we cast for one mana is that much more significant when compared to what Entomb brings to the table.

Honestly, I haven't had the chance to really test Entomb extensively, but just based on what I can project right now, I would probably agree that mulligans would be lessened with its inclusion, but at the cost of making underwhelming and unreliable lines of play much more common (with "underwhelming" being subjective) depending on what you would actually cut to make space for it.

I'll try playing around with it just for kicks. :wink:

@jares: You just got beaten by a triple post from NewDredgePlayer. =P :laugh::laugh::laugh:
T-T-T-Triple Post! :eek:

NewDredgePlayer, I dub thee the new uncrowned king of multi-posts! :tongue:

I'm sure that I have quadruple posts somewhere though... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Also, I am still sticking with twelve dredgers, as I feel that is the correct number. That Darkblast has won me several rounds in the last few weeks and it's ace against a lot of the format's prevalent creatures. It's also a proactive card that can dredge and put itself into the graveyard - something functionally that is incredibly important over the fourth Thug, which sits in your hand. At least Darkblast gives you the out you need to start dredging. The card is sick-good right now.

I have also been very happy ever since I decided to go with 12 Dredgers instead of 11, but I haven't had the chance to play Darkblast competitively, as it has proven to be somewhat questionable during testing. The main point that I really like about it is that it can get itself in the graveyard (how I wish they would print a dredger with Cycling, haha :laugh:), but otherwise, I haven't had much appreciation for its utility. Could you expound more on this and enlighten me? As of the moment, I'm considering having it in the sideboard as the 13th Dredger, as I've been able to clear-up some SB space for flex slots.

Also, I noticed that you're not running too much graveyard hate, and it worries me that this might cause some problems when you run into Reanimator or the mirror.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

With only 2 DR, how often do you find yourself in the situation where you want to flay your opponent, but can't reanimate the big troll?

A lot, I tried it for awhile to see what the DR/Flayer package was about and quickly added the 3rd DR.

@Izor

If you don't like SBing lands, then you'll never be able to play Lion's Eye Diamond. The entire point of Lion's Eye Diamond is that it gives you a chance vs. Storm, Reanimator and other ~T3 combo decks without having to commit SB space to specific hate across multiple matchups. In reality those two lands are saving space on cards like Mindbreak Trap or Faerie Macabre etc. because Lion's Eye Diamond is doing the work for you pre-board.

Also, it's not hard to add another land or two, you can trade consistency in Dredgers by SBing a Golgari Thug for a land and you only "need" 3 Ichorid MD. Cutting a Pimp is a pretty interesting idea also, that card is so incredibly lackluster and it only really serves to set up Cephalid Coliseum for turn 2.

@random

Speaking of Cephalid Coliseum, Another potentially odd idea I thought of while skimming thru' the old Dredge threads is Lotus Petal for speeding up Cephalid Coliseum activations, anybody tried 1 shot mana in the deck?

[HokusSchmokus]

Hollywood, Y U NO PLAY 4 THERAPIES?

Srsly though, is there a reason?

[Final Fortune]

Hollywood, Y U NO PLAY 4 THERAPIES?

Srsly though, is there a reason?

People seem to have completely forgotten which cards actually win games in favor of "danger of cool things" Dread Return packages. You can't play that non-sense unless you cut good cards for it, there's no space.

[Godmode]

3 DR it's the way to go playing the Flayer. 2 will slow you down if you don't have the 2nd one to return the troll for the kill and that turn might be key in some MUs...

[joemauer]

@Hollywood: With only two dread returns I would run Sun Titan or Iona as your target.

I also think the fourth Cabal Therapy would be nice to squeeze in your deck. I believe four Cabal Therapies are better than any dread return package against all combo decks.

[jjjoness']

People seem to have completely forgotten which cards actually win games in favor of "danger of cool things" Dread Return packages. You can't play that non-sense unless you cut good cards for it, there's no space.

While I couldn't agree more, I'm not entirely sure if Flayer falls into that category.
To me it seems like it is somewhat a compromise between being able to race combo (which FKZ does better) and turning off aggro. It's almost the same as FKZ, with the difference that you need two DR to win. Against aggro it is better than FKZ imho. You don't need bridges to get it going (although one makes things way easier) and flaying your opponent works, no matter how stalled the board is.

That being said, I would not run Flayer with only two DR, which makes it arguably worse than FKZ.

[joemauer]

That being said, I would not run Flayer with only two DR, which makes it arguably worse than FKZ.

I would not run FKZ without three dread returns and a Sphinx, elsewise you won't really get value out of your FKZ either.

[Michael Keller]

Thank you all for your feedback. Most all of the points you've brought up I've taken into consideration. I have Sun Titan in the Flayer's slot. He was in my build just recently after I cut him, but on second thought I can see why he operates better under double-DR as opposed to triple-DR.

Additionally, I do run a set of Therapies, but one in my board for Combo and Control. The deck is already lightning-fast enough where having four Therapies sometimes isn't necessary, especially with fewer Ichorids. It just wins games flat-out like it should, and as you all know lists can be tight. Two of the deck's recent highest performances played only three Therapies - relegating one to the board. Game one I feel as though four is just a little much, because those are games we win anyways.

Is it really worth trying to squeeze it in? Perhaps, but to be honest I've found that three is all I generally have used by the time game one ends. If an opponent lets a Breakthrough or another draw spell resolve, what else really matters where three Therapies aren't enough?

Also, Darkblast as I mentioned is really good here. Its utility can be huge and it places itself into the graveyard, which is actually very important. I've seen some lists run ten to eleven dredgers, and I'm running twelve, so that's more consistent from a dredging standpoint.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Michael Keller]

I'll make sure to give live updates tomorrow throughout the day - no matter what.

[Michael Keller]

I'll make sure to give live updates tomorrow throughout the day - no matter what.

Keeping the dream alive...5-1 at SCG: Baltimore.

[NewDredgePlayer]

Keeping the dream alive...5-1 at SCG: Baltimore.

Nice! Hopefully we can see you in top 8.

[Kage]

I believe Hollywood's on camera now! He just won game 1 on turn 2 :)

[Lt. Quattro]

Did I just see some guy playing dredge against maverick and forget to put 2 narcomoeba?

[AEnesidem]

Did I just see some guy playing dredge against maverick and forget to put 2 narcomoeba?

yeah apparently, i can't think of any reason not to pit them into play. But he would have won either way i guess.

[Lt. Quattro]

yeah apparently, i can't think of any reason not to pit them into play. But he would have won either way i guess.

Yeah I also saw, but I was hoping I would see some tight technical play since I'm missing some of that in my life.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I believe Hollywood's on camera now! He just won game 1 on turn 2 :)

Nope... Hollywood is Michael Keller and he is 6-2 right now =(

Hollywood also always says that he plays really really tight, so he wouldn't miss 2 Narcomoeba-triggers.

[AEnesidem]

Nope... Hollywood is Michael Keller and he is 6-2 right now =(

damn : ( so no feature match or top 8, or does he still have a chance

[Michael Keller]

Finished 7-2. Waiting for seed, but made Top 16. 262 people.

[AEnesidem]

Finished 7-2. Waiting for seed, but made Top 16. 262 people.

are you playing the exact same list you posted a while ago? with flayer and 2 dr's?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Why didn't he cast Breakthrough instead of Looting? He had the LED to pay for Thalia. :eyebrow:

[AEnesidem]

Why didn't he cast Breakthrough instead of Looting? He had the LED to pay for Thalia. :eyebrow:

i don't think he can pay that with led
the extra cost of thalia has to be payed at the same time as the original cost if i'm right

[igri_is_a_bk]

i don't think he can pay that with led
the extra cost of thalia has to be payed at the same time as the original cost if i'm right

Oh yeah, that's true. I was gonna say, why would you not dredge two more times? Thanks.

[Michael Keller]

I cut for Sun Titan...just awesome. Aside from that, I believe so. Waiting for final standings.

[Michael Keller]

I cut for Sun Titan...just awesome. Aside from that, I belive so. Waiting for final standings.

13th!

[joemauer]

Congrats on making the top 16. Can't wait for a report.

[Michael Keller]

Just got home. Nope, that wasn't me on camera.

At any rate, I'll be sure to get to work on the report a.s.a.p.

[jares]

Just got home. Nope, that wasn't me on camera.

At any rate, I'll be sure to get to work on the report a.s.a.p.
Congrats! Looking forward to your report. :smile:

Cheers,
jares

[gamer4life]

13th!

Thought i reckonized that list. CONGRATS DUDE

[jares]

I rediscovered something cute:

Offalsnout

It works somewhat like Coffin Purge, but instead of having Flashback, it gets to feed Ichorid, and can trigger Bridge from Below at instant speed. In the worst case, it can always be a warm body for three mana. :tongue:

It probably won't make the cut, but it's there alongside the other Evoke Dorks just in case it becomes useful.

Cheers,
jares

[Kage]

So another 2 suboptimal Dredge version make top 16 in a large event. Maybe it's time to accept that LED is the way to go?

[HokusSchmokus]

So another 2 suboptimal Dredge version make top 16 in a large event. Maybe it's time to accept that LED is the way to go?

That's Hollywood^^ and to be fair, his ,ist looks way better than those of prosak etc.
Edit: also, nobody really questions that LED is the way to go...

[AEnesidem]

So another 2 suboptimal Dredge version make top 16 in a large event. Maybe it's time to accept that LED is the way to go?

another suboptimal poster makes its appearance.

LED has been accepted as the way to go already some time ago. And before you judge and say "suboptimal" post some of your results with your list.

[Di]

New thread on Dredge now opened, so please continue that discussion here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Updated-Primer-Dredge)