[Deck] Dredge

[ScatmanX]

Does anyone still plays Firestorm in the Sideboard?
I haven't seen it lately... Is it bad now?

[TheSleeper]

I <3 Firestorm personally. Works as a discard outlet against countermagic, moon effects, chalice, can take out their dudes/deal damage. Can't see a reason not to run it.

[ivanpei]

Thanks Izor, I just tested the LED builds and its pretty bad vs blue. You need a god hand to really make it go busted (Ie land + draw + led+ dredger). Which is pretty difficult to come by as you are shaving land, draw (no carefuls) and dredgers. Usually you draw 3 of the 4. I almost always mull hands without a dredger, but I can live with out 1 of the remaining 3 (LED, land, draw). Of those 3, missing the LED is the least painful which gets me to wondering why I have to play crap like LED anyways? I'm solidly on the non-ledlists now. Against combo/fast decks, I don't understand why non-sphinx targets are good (Ie Iona, FKZ etc). Against storm, if I DR a sphinx I flip like 15-16 cards on average netting me 1 or more therapies usually. I then use the therapies to go to work on my opponent's hand, taking out the card that will kill me the next turn while netting myself plenty of zombies. I then kill them with ichorids + zombies the turn after.

In what situation are the other targets better than sphinx? You can deny with Iona, but sphinx + flipped therapies does the same thing AND kills next turn. FKZ, "might" kill when you DR it, but if you didnt hit that many bridges, it "might" not get there too. Terastodon I understand because thats an out to moat, propaganda, hunting grounds etc. Stuff like ancestors chosen is also iffy to me because if I DR a sphinx, I can use the zombies to block, and the therapies to nuke the burn out of zoo's hand. Thanks in advance for the explanations.

[sa17dk]

Thanks Izor, I just tested the LED builds and its pretty bad vs blue. You need a god hand to really make it go busted (Ie land + draw + led+ dredger). Which is pretty difficult to come by as you are shaving land, draw (no carefuls) and dredgers. Usually you draw 3 of the 4. I almost always mull hands without a dredger, but I can live with out 1 of the remaining 3 (LED, land, draw). Of those 3, missing the LED is the least painful which gets me to wondering why I have to play crap like LED anyways? I'm solidly on the non-ledlists now. Against combo/fast decks, I don't understand why non-sphinx targets are good (Ie Iona, FKZ etc). Against storm, if I DR a sphinx I flip like 15-16 cards on average netting me 1 or more therapies usually. I then use the therapies to go to work on my opponent's hand, taking out the card that will kill me the next turn while netting myself plenty of zombies. I then kill them with ichorids + zombies the turn after.

In what situation are the other targets better than sphinx? You can deny with Iona, but sphinx + flipped therapies does the same thing AND kills next turn. FKZ, "might" kill when you DR it, but if you didnt hit that many bridges, it "might" not get there too. Terastodon I understand because thats an out to moat, propaganda, hunting grounds etc. Stuff like ancestors chosen is also iffy to me because if I DR a sphinx, I can use the zombies to block, and the therapies to nuke the burn out of zoo's hand. Thanks in advance for the explanations.

Maindeck DR targets are so unnecessary. You came to the right conclusion. I used to run fancy stuff like Iona maindeck and I realized that they were all unneeded. Sure, they make you feel safer, but they are unnecessary:

Against Goblins you dont need Iona because they'll bring in shit via Lackey and Vials and a swinging 15/15 Troll is gonna wipe their board or kill them.
Against Merfolk, if you're resolving a Dread Return, you're winning. It also doesnt help that they can double block your Iona with two 5/5 Coralhelms and survive combat with a 4/4 Coralhelm leftover. If you're swinging with an enormous Troll, however, their board gets wiped just like in the Goblins case or they lose.
Against Storm, it's better to race them with a fat Troll or rape them with Cabal Therapy.
Against Control, if you're resolving a Dread Return, you're winning. Sure, you dont have cute stuff like Iona naming white to block Swords, but then you just swarm them instead with the 2/2's you just got and Ichorids next turn.
Etc.

Another example of a successful list without maindeck DR targets http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37949

Also, 3 Ichorids are fine. I ran 4 for the longest time then went back to 3 because I saw them in my opening hand too much. I'm running the same list as in the link I just posted, except I'm using a 15th land over the 4th Ichorid.

[ivanpei]

Yeap I run the exact same MD list. I'll test the 15th land, seems good. My sb looks like this:

4 Chain
4 Grudge
3 Firestorm
1 Ray
1 Sphinx
1 Terastodon
1 Dread Return

IMO the Sphinx is the best target if you want to wreck fast decks like storm combo. Dredging 15/16 cards to wreck their hand with therapies is ideal. Sphinx can also find Terastodon when you are playing against lock down decks like enchantress/stax etc. I prefer Sphinx over ancestors chosen because of the reasons I've mentioned above.

[Bischof]

Does anyone tests Darkblast in the Maindeck? Last Sunday on a Tournament i stand after 7 Rounds 2/5/0...
My opponents:
- Big Zoo (lost 0/2)
- Zoo (lost 0/2)
- Merfolk (won 2/0)
- Enchantress (lost 0/2)
- Affinity (lost 0/2)
- Merfolk (won 2/1)
- Eva Green (lost 1/2)

Big Zoo/ Zoo:

Both games i lost against Grim Lavamancer... (!!!)

Merfolk:

Easy games.

Enchantress:

It's realy hard to win against Elephant Grass and Game 2 against Wheel.

Affinity:

The Affinity Guy played Maindeck 3 Relics... No Chance against Sac effects of Atog and Ravager.

Eva Green:

He played Jailer an i had so answers to it...


The thing i mean is, that Darkblast could win against Lavamancer and Jailer. But i haven't test Darkblast. Does anyone else?

(sry for my poor english)

[Izor]

Thanks Izor, I just tested the LED builds and its pretty bad vs blue. You need a god hand to really make it go busted (Ie land + draw + led+ dredger). Which is pretty difficult to come by as you are shaving land, draw (no carefuls) and dredgers. Usually you draw 3 of the 4. I almost always mull hands without a dredger, but I can live with out 1 of the remaining 3 (LED, land, draw). Of those 3, missing the LED is the least painful which gets me to wondering why I have to play crap like LED anyways? I'm solidly on the non-ledlists now. Against combo/fast decks, I don't understand why non-sphinx targets are good (Ie Iona, FKZ etc). Against storm, if I DR a sphinx I flip like 15-16 cards on average netting me 1 or more therapies usually. I then use the therapies to go to work on my opponent's hand, taking out the card that will kill me the next turn while netting myself plenty of zombies. I then kill them with ichorids + zombies the turn after.

In what situation are the other targets better than sphinx? You can deny with Iona, but sphinx + flipped therapies does the same thing AND kills next turn. FKZ, "might" kill when you DR it, but if you didnt hit that many bridges, it "might" not get there too. Terastodon I understand because thats an out to moat, propaganda, hunting grounds etc. Stuff like ancestors chosen is also iffy to me because if I DR a sphinx, I can use the zombies to block, and the therapies to nuke the burn out of zoo's hand. Thanks in advance for the explanations.

What you said is the basic reason LEDless builds perform better than LED on average currently.

As far as maindecked Dread Return Targets are concerned it is for sure a personal preference whether to run some or not and how many. The most consistent build will only contain 2 Dread Returns and no Targets. While I will usually also use a build with optimal consistency I cannot deny that maindecked Dread Return Targets are way better than Grave Troll. A 20/20 regenerating Troll is not half as good ad a 7/7 Flyer that locks your opponent out of a color, thats just a fact. And a Target that finishes your opponent off by giving your Zmbies Haste and +1/+1 is also better. People say that no opponent can win through a turn 2 15/15 Grave Troll with 7 Zombies. Well, this happens more often than one would expect; Sword the Troll, EE the Zombies for example. But these are only marginal cases. There are indeed some matches only Iona would be able to win for you, like Stax, UW Landstill, Enchantress and Lands. Trolls will often fail here. Combo is also an example. I have lost so many games against Combo that went off while I had 2 big Trolls on the field. One FKZ or Iona would have won the game in those situations.
Sphinx is a Deep analysis that doesn't cost mana and it is great at finding your FKZ or Iona. Even if one doesn't find it, Sphinx will at least give you some extra Zombies and Therapies. The problem with it is the fact that it absolutely depends on Bridges. So against a deck like Affinity, which is able to nuke your Bridges whenever they want with Ravager Sphinx doesn't really do much. That dependency on Bridges is also true for FKZ. Additionally FKZ usually relies on Sphinx as well, because a FKZ alone will rarely win on turn 2 or 3.

Don't get me wrong, I usually don't use DR targets myself main. But there is no denying that they are really good, much better than Troll in most situations. The only reason not to run them is a very important one: we don't have slots for them.
So I think one can't simply say that Dread Return targets are completely useless. They aren't. The right phrase would be: Dread Return Targets don't warrant the consistency loss. Or you say they DO warrant the consistency loss. Then you are one of the people that run some DR Targets main. It's all about weighing power against consistency.

@ Darkblast: Two main reasons not to run it over Thug: It's not a creature, thus can't be eaten by Ichorid and it only dredges 3 instead of 4. So we can't really afford to drop Thug for it. What could be done, however, is cut one Thug for one copy of Darkblast. This will usually be enough to combat Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs. But it won't be enough against Jailer. Lavamancer... well this is not really a card Dredge should fear too much.

[Bischof]

The most consistent build will only contain 2 Dread Returns and no Targets.

I agree because the probability to have some targets like Iona or FKZ in your opening hand is at zero. But i play with LED and as DR targets i run Eternal Witness and FKZ. I think the EW is realy nice target. You can get Breakthrough, LED, Coliseum etc. This is very nice.


@ Darkblast: Two main reasons not to run it over Thug...

Your explanation about the Ichorid targets is completely right. But i thought that Dredge 3 or 4 is imo not relevant. But as i've said, i didn't tested it.


Normaly i play the LED version, but i think that i will run the LEDless built at the Legacy Sideevent at GP Bochum. But are 4 Tireless Tribe realy necessary? Do u think that i can cut one and put an Eternal Witness in this Slot?

[Izor]

Your explanation about the Ichorid targets is completely right. But i thought that Dredge 3 or 4 is imo not relevant. But as i've said, i didn't tested it.


Normaly i play the LED version, but i think that i will run the LEDless built at the Legacy Sideevent at GP Bochum. But are 4 Tireless Tribe realy necessary? Do u think that i can cut one and put an Eternal Witness in this Slot?

The Dredge 4 instead of 3 does matter, even if it doesn't seem like much. Darkblast is playable, but usually Thug is the right choice.

Without LED you need something to get your hand into your grave as fast as possible. Breakthrough shouldn't be used as a discard outlet, so there are only PImp, Study and Therapy. Therapy is of course only an emergency solution as you will want to aim it at your opponent if possible. Study is great, but only gets 2 cards into your grave. So in the LEDless build you will notice that PImp is your absolute favorite discard outlet. With Tribe you have the possibility of playing PImps 5-8. You couldn't wish for more.
Then, cutting the 4th Tribe for a DR Target again belongs into the discussion consistency vs main DR Targets. I would personally never cut the 4th Tribe if i can avoid it, I'd rather cut the 4th Study or Ichorid.

[ivanpei]

Thanks Izor, I don't doubt that targets are necessary in some situations, I'm just wondering why people run iona instead of sphinx when IMO, sphinx is better in alot more situations. I see that Iona is sometimes better for slow-rolling and not being too dependent on bridges. That's a new revelation for me.

I'm not sure if the 9th/10th rainbow lands have been discussed before. Obviously missing land drops with paradise is quite relevant compared to the pain from tarnished. However I can see that you really only need to make the 2nd land drop in the following situations:

1. You have tribe/imp and you want to play a rainbow land T1 and cephalid colliseum T2
2. You want your turn 2 play to be protected from daze
3. You want to cast 2 spells on turn 2

I can see Situation 2 being very common. Situation 1 can sometimes pop up and situation 3 is quite rare (land + discard outlet + dredger + double draw spells). However my question is: Is the pain worth it every time you draw tarnished to cover for the above 3 situations. Against blue obviously the pain is irrelevant, however I can see the advantages of the speed vs combo. However considering how aggro infested the meta is right now, do you think playing undiscovered paradise is a better call? Just in case the life is important when facing zoo or goblins. I usually tap a land for mana roughly 2 times per game (sometimes 3 times). Which may cause 6-9 damage when using tarnished.

I've lost a couple of games due to this. So is the damage worth it? IMO I'm thinking twice about playing tarnished. I might try undiscovered paradise and see if the missed landdrop affects me much. Daze is being dropped in alot of lists so situation 2 might not be as common as before.

[sa17dk]

Im testing a 15 land set-up right now:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

I definitely believe that at least 2 Tarnished Citadels is the right way to go. I hate the damage sometimes too, but it's a necessary evil. On the other hand, I think 3 Citadels might be the threshold for too much damage, which is why Im running Undiscovered Paradise over the 3rd.

[Bischof]

I think that Underground Sea would do his work too. Instead of the Paradise i mean. The only thing not to run it is that you can't use it to cast Tribe, Grudge and Firestorm. But the other spells and activated abilities can play/activated by u or b. With the Paradise you're not able to activate Coliseum in the 2nd Turn if you played PImp 1st Turn. With U-Sea you can. You can also cast Breakthrough, Study, PImp and so on.
I'm not a fan of the Paradise...

[sa17dk]

The fact that you cant cast Tribe, Grudge, Firestorm, and sometimes Ray is EXACTLY the reason why Underground Sea isnt used.

Getting Tribe or Pimp on the field is THE best thing for the deck. Without a rainbow land you can only cast half of those crucial 8 cards. Resolving Tribe or Pimp is far more significant than being able to cast Careful Study or Breakthrough because Tribe and Pimp maintain your dredging while Careful Study and Breakthrough cant sustain you unless you continuously chain into more of them. In games 2 and 3 having both red for Grudge and Firestorm and the W/B for Tribe and Pimp is insanely crucial.

Which of these two hands would you rather have:

Tireless Tribe, Undiscovered Paradise, Cephalid Coliseum, Dredger, Careful Study.

or

Tireless Tribe, Underground Sea, Cephalid Coliseum, Dredger, Careful Study.


You dont want to take chances and rely on the weakest card in the deck to be your only discard outlet.

[Bischof]

1. You said the same that i said the post before...
2. I don't play Firestorm.
3. Paradise is definitely bad without Bloodghast.
4. Dredge is playable with u-Sea.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37973

It's not nessessary to play grudge. Unusual, but a nice list!

[GoldenCid]

Well....this is all about LEDless?? >:(

Some considerations about targets...I will not talk about iona and FKZ which wins games alone but about sphinx and E. witness!

Please stop overstime sphixs is good, really good, but E. Witness is insane. Did you noticed that??
It's very versatile since you can choose what retrieve to go off...Breakthrought (awesome), colisseum or even LED (if you have DA in yard or a colisseum + DA, this last one in yard). The only situation where witness is "useless" is when you are manaless (no lands, no LED in play) and you can't go off that turn.

[ivanpei]

Hmm I'm actually prefering undiscovered paradise right now as the rainbow lands 9-10. The bounce has rarely affected my tempo and really saved me alot of pain when racing. The bounce to hand has also been useful as a discard outlet. It's really useful to bounce it back to hand when you want to pitch something if your initial discard outlet gets forced. Food for thought.

[lotriderm]

I run 15 lands with 2 Undiscovered Paradise and 1 Tarnished Citadel. Like what ivanpei said, the life is important during a race with aggro.

I have a question regarding my list. I have no maindeck DR targets and a very standard list. Is it better to have 3 DR and 3 Careful Study or 2 DR and 4 Careful Study. I am also running 4 Ichorids but I think I will like to keep them as a 4 of.

[ivanpei]

I think 2 undiscovered, 1 tarnished is the best option for land configuration too. Ive noticed careful to be a pretty good card though it's not busted nuts like breakthrough. IMO careful 4 is more important than dread 3. I have my 3rd dread in the board along with the targets. Ichorids are the best cut if you are trying to shave for the 15 th land. I haven't had much trouble with mana using 14 lands though. I'll see how the 15 land configuration works.

[lotriderm]

The only time I struggled with mana with 14 lands is when I'm mulling a lot. I'm often mull down to 5 or something with no lands and can't get my dredgers into the yard. With 15 lands, I mull more aggresively and I seem to get a land and an outlet pretty often when I'm at 5 or even 4 cards sometimes.

[ivanpei]

I'm still not sold on the 15th land though. I found that what I really wanted was the 13th draw spell. The problem I usually encountered with opening hands was not the lack of land, its the lack of dredger + draw+ discard outlet + land combo. Lets have a look at the breakdown:

Land -14
Discard outlet - 12 (4 Tribe, 4 PImp, 4 Careful)
Draw- 12 (4 Cephalid, 4 Careful, 4 Breakthrough)
Dredgers- 12 (4 Troll, 4 Stinkweed, 4 Thug)

I only keep at least 3 of the 4 above. Usually its Dredger + discard outlet+ land. I love careful because it can dig for dredgers/land (assuming you have cephalid as your only land)/ 2nd draw spell (breakthrough, cephalid). I never dislike seeing a hand with careful. However I think the deck can use a 13th draw spell instead of the 15th land IMO. What do you think is the best? Brainstorm?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Did anyone see the deck that top 16'ed at the Star City games legacy open? It is crazy stuff. I still prefer more conventional builds, but it's interesting to look at nonetheless. I am guessing he is running that weird manabase to make it more wasteland resistant. Hapless Researcher is a cute discard outlet when you don't have any W producing lands. The SB looks really weird with way too many DR targets. I think overall the list seems really wonky and being more wasteland resistant is the only real plus I can see.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35412

[ivanpei]

No breakthrough? Now that heresy. I think 5 coloured is seriously the only way to go. Hapless seems too underpowered to me IMO. I much prefer tribe anyday, T1 tribe and pitching my dredger over the first few turns while blocking is very strong. What about brainstorm? I find playing 1/2 brainstorms along side careful, breakthrough and cephalid coliseum seems plausible.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

No breakthrough? Now that heresy. I think 5 coloured is seriously the only way to go. Hapless seems too underpowered to me IMO. I much prefer tribe anyday, T1 tribe and pitching my dredger over the first few turns while blocking is very strong. What about brainstorm? I find playing 1/2 brainstorms along side careful, breakthrough and cephalid coliseum seems plausible.

Yeah the lack of breakthrough is very weird. I was thinking in his weird build FoW could be good sideboard tech with the crazy amount of blue cards he is running... But yeah, I don't think the more secure manabase is worth all the sacrifice.

[Parax]

I really do not think that 5 color land is really needed. Basically i'd run down to three colors. Blue black and white. You need the white for tireless tribe. As far as the green and red, how often do you honesly hard cast a Troll or FKZ. These cards aren't really in here to be casted but for Dread Return.

If you want to go down to 3 colors i think its feasible.

[Heroix]

If we drop the 5 Colors Lands, how else are we going to fire off Ancient Grudges or Firestorms without G/R. Without it, there's no way to fight the sideboard hate.

[frogboy]

re: 14 land: the Cephalid Coliseums are U: Draw three, discard three that sometimes help you play around Daze. They don't cast Imp, Tribe, Grudge, Ray, or Firestorm, and you want to be careful about assuming that you can lean on them for mana.

[Izor]

If we drop the 5 Colors Lands, how else are we going to fire off Ancient Grudges or Firestorms without G/R. Without it, there's no way to fight the sideboard hate.

*Adding Nature's Claim and Ray of Revelation to this list*

Really, I can at least see why people would want to run a U/B mana base only (tapping lands for mana doesn't always do 1-3 damage and your lands don't die after the 3rd usage). One can use Underground Sea and other duals who provide all colors you need.
This isn't the case with a 3 colored mana base. You will ALWAYS need at least 2 lands in order to have access to all 3 colors. Also, if your opening hand only provides duals themselves but no Fetchies you will almost always not have access to at least one of the 3 colors.
So either stay with 5 colored (which I would strongly advise) or go UB only.

Also, Frogboy is right. One can't just count 4 Coliseum, 4 Cities, 4 Gemstones, 2 Tarnished as 14 lands, because Coliseum can't cast the majority of spells. So those 14 lands are in practice only 10, which is why most people would play the 15th (11th) land over the 13th draw spell. I would even play it over the 12th Dredger.

[Litorers]

While the T16 list has a lot of wacky bits, stifle seems like really good sideboard tech, countering Faerie macabre, artifact hate, and all sorts of other random activated abilities.

It's also castable through cephalid coliseum, but you do need to have a mana open....
Seems to me most opponents just wouldn't expect it out of dredge.

[lotriderm]

For people running 4 Ancient Grudges in the side:

Do you ever feel like 4 is too much sometimes? Because I've been getting stuck with multiple Ancient Grudges and no targets after I blow up their first piece of hate. Maybe 3 would be better?

[sa17dk]

No 4 is better. The only reason you blew up their first piece of hate is because you ran 4 grudges and saw one early. I'd rather have extra grudges than not have one at all and stare at the Tormod's Crypt that will ruin my day.

[ButtholeMcGhee]

re: 14 land: the Cephalid Coliseums are U: Draw three, discard three that sometimes help you play around Daze. They don't cast Imp, Tribe, Grudge, Ray, or Firestorm, and you want to be careful about assuming that you can lean on them for mana.

I dont' understand why people don't run more lands. Coliseums don't produce non-Blue mana, and this deck needs 15 or 16 lands to cast it's spells. Especially the off-color ones.

[Dm225]

This is what I'm currently running.

Creature

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

Enchantment

4 Bridge from Below

Sorcery

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

Land

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard

1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ray of Revelation

I'm pretty set on the main but the side is questionable to me. This is what I was considering for the sideboard.

-1 Ancestor's Chosen
-1 Sadistic Hypnotist
-4 Ray of Revelation

+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+1 Terestadon
+4 Firestorm

I just can't think of a situation where I would board in Ray of Revelation instead of Chain of Vapor? Am I wrong or is this the general consensus?

[frogboy]

No 4 is better. The only reason you blew up their first piece of hate is because you ran 4 grudges and saw one early. I'd rather have extra grudges than not have one at all and stare at the Tormod's Crypt that will ruin my day.

If they don't have a Crypt aren't you just obliterating them?

edit: I board in Ray against Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm also not real sure why there's an Iona in your board.

[ButtholeMcGhee]

If they don't have a Crypt aren't you just obliterating them?

edit: I board in Ray against Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm also not real sure why there's an Iona in your board.

This deck usually does well if your opponent doesn't have Crypt. And Ray is not only good against Wheel of Sun and Moon, it also can remove Leyline of the Void. Which can be a problem.

[Dark Ritual]

Along with moat. Seriously, if you aren't running ray of revelation in your SB you are doing something wrong it deserves at least 2 slots. Also blows up troublesome enchantment's and can set back enchantress players a lot if you blow up their enchantress's presence or even better kill confinement then swing FTW.

[CabalTherapy]

I thought that we disuss the LED build here. These lists with enormous nummbers of lands xD don't run the diamond.
The other thread is still in the Established Decks forum.

[frogboy]

I thought that we disuss the LED build here. These lists with enormous nummbers of lands xD don't run the diamond.
The other thread is still in the Established Decks forum.

There are two options; we can either just have one Dredge thread in this forum, or we can put both of them in here. We decided not to clutter the forum with two Dredge threads, but if there starts to be a ton of overlap that can change

[CabalTherapy]

There are two options; we can either just have one Dredge thread in this forum, or we can put both of them in here. We decided not to clutter the forum with two Dredge threads, but if there starts to be a ton of overlap that can change

Ok, I understand. I just wanted to ask. So let's move on.

[maxflow2]

I thought that we disuss the LED build here. These lists with enormous nummbers of lands xD don't run the diamond.
The other thread is still in the Established Decks forum.

On that topic, how the heck do those LED lists with only 12 lands expect to be able to cast Putrid Imp consistently off of only 8 black sources? There's only about a 2/3 chance you see one of those in your opening hand.

[SHABOOGS]

Casting PImp is just one of many ways to get your dredgers to the yard. With LED, you can live with land, draw spell, dredger and LED (play land, play draw spell, in response crack LED and start dredging). Ever since I switched to the LED build I've been less reliant on a resolved PImp/Tribe as a discard outlet compared to when I was using the non-LED build.

[drocker23]

I have no idea if my post is way too far down to even be seen, but Iona is the BEST possible target for dread return in the legacy format. Iona = win.

[Izor]

I have no idea if my post is way too far down to even be seen, but Iona is the BEST possible target for dread return in the legacy format. Iona = win.

I agree that Iona is an incredibly good card. The question is whether Dredge needs her in order to win. The problem is that the main board is already very tight and we usually won't be able to dedicate too many main deck slots to DR Targets (I think not more than 2). In a metagame with several Lands and Stax I would probably include Iona main, for she is the only way we can win those matchups preboard. Her utility against combo, her independance on Bridges (which is her main selling point over FKZ) and the factz that she just wins against monocolored decks loke Mono Black or Burn are always useful. If the metagame is rather control-heavy and/or contains lots of multicolored decks (Bant, Zoo, etc) I wouldn't play her. Grave Troll will mostly do the same but he is not a dead card in the opening hand.

[Bozon]

What do you think of this (french) list in the U.S.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair

4 Bridge from Below

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage

SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Nature's Claim

Why you don't play Bloodghast?

Please give me your comments and your reviews.

[Izor]

What do you think of this (french) list in the U.S.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair

4 Bridge from Below

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage

SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Nature's Claim

Why you don't play Bloodghast?

Please give me your comments and your reviews.

We don't play Bloodghast because Ichorid is so much better. Also, running both requires too many slots and will harm the consistency of the deck. Additionally, Bloodghast completely ruins the whole mana base (4 Undiscovered Paradise and 2 Darkmoor Salvage are just so incredibly bad).

This list doesn't play Tireless Tribe and only 8 gold lands (4 of which are Paradises), so the list must be extremely inconsistent.

[SHABOOGS]

I tried a non LED bloodghast/ichorid build in the past and it seems to work just fine. I tried it in a 30ish player tourney and I landed 5th place (went 5-1 in the swiss). I'm currently testing a LED based bloodghast/ichorid build and thru various playtest and goldfish sessions (I've been testing it for 3 months now) and a few small tourneys as well and it seems consistent enough (pre and post board). I'm gonna use that build in a major legacy tourney this weekend and see what happens.

EDIT: I forgot to ask, how's the MU against survival decks these days? I've only come across 3 survival decks (2 retainers, 1 vengvine) in the past 4 months but I've lost to all three of them.

[Bozon]

We don't play Bloodghast because Ichorid is so much better. Also, running both requires too many slots and will harm the consistency of the deck. Additionally, Bloodghast completely ruins the whole mana base (4 Undiscovered Paradise and 2 Darkmoor Salvage are just so incredibly bad).

This list doesn't play Tireless Tribe and only 8 gold lands (4 of which are Paradises), so the list must be extremely inconsistent.

Ichorid can return with Bloodghast, but not with Tireless Tribe. Bloodghast's Landfall is just enormous with Undiscovered Paradise and Darkmoor Salvage, its recursive effect, deck depends therefore less Bridge from Below.

Tireless Tribe is nothing more than a white Putrid Imp bad! This is really poor. You are afraid of taking mulligans?!!

[lotriderm]

But with only Putrid Imp as your discard outlet, if you mull once or twice, the chances of having land and Imp are pretty low so you can't DDD either at that few cards.

[Mizeri]

Unmask, lions eye diamond, cabal therapy? Those still make you discard enough usually.

[sa17dk]

Unmask, lions eye diamond, cabal therapy? Those still make you discard enough usually.

That's terrible. You want to be aiming your Unmask and Cabal Therapy at them. Using them as a discard outlet should only be a last resort.

[Izor]

Ichorid can return with Bloodghast, but not with Tireless Tribe. Bloodghast's Landfall is just enormous with Undiscovered Paradise and Darkmoor Salvage, its recursive effect, deck depends therefore less Bridge from Below.

Ichorid being able to eat Bloodghast is not an argument, as you will never want to remove Ghast for Ichorid, will you? You want to remove creatures, that don't do anything in your graveyard, like Putrid Imps or redundant Dredgers.
True, Bloodghast's landfall is enormous with Paradise and Salvage. Maybe you didn't read my post? That's just the point; Paradise and especially Darkmoor Salvage are just crap. And Bloodghast needs them in order to work...
And you have to explain why Bloodghast depends less on Bridges than Ichorid. If you mean the fact that Ichorid dies each turn and makes tokens only if you have Bridges... well that doesn't show that Ichorid is dependant on Bridges, but that it has the bonus to auto activate Bridges each turn if you have some.


Tireless Tribe is nothing more than a white Putrid Imp bad! This is really poor.

Putrid Imps 5-8 is just awesome, not poor. It doubles your chances to have one permanent discard outlet in your opening hand,l which is great. It can't be removed for Ichorid, which is the only real disadvantage in comparison to PImp. But don't overlook Tribes' selling points: It blocks away Tarmogoyfs, KotRs and many other big creatures like a champ.


You are afraid of taking mulligans?!!

Yes, I am. You tell me that you aren't? Mulligaining into oblivion is the most common reason Dredge loses, especially game 1.

[frogboy]

Tireless Tribe is the best card in the deck.

Bloodghast can't beat a Kird Ape.

[maxflow2]

I've tried playing a few brews without Tribes and with Bloodghasts + Ichorids similar to the above list. At least when I was experimenting, since the deck was very lacking in discard outlets (Cabal Therapy is poor, and you often want to use Careful Study to dredge), I tried choosing to draw some games with the plan of discarding at the end of turn as my main discard outlet. It worked okay and I found myself mulling to 6 a lot less, but when I did have to mull it was that much worse because I was that much further from hitting 8 cards in hand to discard. That and the additional difficulty of casting Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim off of only 8 sources of green made me drop the list. You really only want to extra graveyard dudes post sideboard anyway when you're forced to dredge slowly.

[ButtholeMcGhee]

Tireless Tribe is the best card in the deck.

Bloodghast can't beat a Kird Ape.


I agree completely. I originally couldn't find room for four Tribes with the 15 lands and Careful Studies being untouchable. But they were just so good in testing, that I found the extra two slots buy cutting a dredger and an Ichorid. The Tribes are better anyway.

I found Bloodghast not too bad when run along with Realm Razer.

[CabalTherapy]

If you are playing without LED and with 15 lands, 4 Tirbes are perfect.
This card stops aggro in a brilliant way. It is the best one drop agains Goblins and in the LEDless version way more
better than the Imp.

[SHABOOGS]

I've tried playing a few brews without Tribes and with Bloodghasts + Ichorids similar to the above list. At least when I was experimenting, since the deck was very lacking in discard outlets (Cabal Therapy is poor, and you often want to use Careful Study to dredge), I tried choosing to draw some games with the plan of discarding at the end of turn as my main discard outlet. It worked okay and I found myself mulling to 6 a lot less, but when I did have to mull it was that much worse because I was that much further from hitting 8 cards in hand to discard. That and the additional difficulty of casting Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim off of only 8 sources of green made me drop the list. You really only want to extra graveyard dudes post sideboard anyway when you're forced to dredge slowly.I also choose to draw all the time even if I win the die roll and just use the clean up step to discard my dredger so that I won't have to look for PImp in my opening 7. I just look for land, gas, dredger in my opener and DDD for one or two turns before casting my draw spell to dredge and win. I also hate it when they kill your PImp and can't continue dredging on the next few turns coz you have 4-5 cards in your hand (that is, if you don't dump all of it in response to killing PImp - but that's even worse in most cases). And choosing to go 2nd gives you an idea of what deck they're playing based on how they play their first turn so you can adjust accordingly (with the exception of combo decks of course).

[Izor]

I also choose to draw all the time even if I win the die roll and just use the clean up step to discard my dredger so that I won't have to look for PImp in my opening 7. I just look for land, gas, dredger in my opener and DDD for one or two turns before casting my draw spell to dredge and win. I also hate it when they kill your PImp and can't continue dredging on the next few turns coz you have 4-5 cards in your hand (that is, if you don't dump all of it in response to killing PImp - but that's even worse in most cases). And choosing to go 2nd gives you an idea of what deck they're playing based on how they play their first turn so you can adjust accordingly (with the exception of combo decks of course).

Against blue decks, that try to counter your discard outlets this is the only right way to go. But that strategy shouldn't always be applied. Against decks without counters you'll rather have a turn 1 Tribe/Imp. This allows Coliseum activations on turn 2, playing around daze turn 2, Breakthrough x=1 on turn 2 and other things. Most importantly it allows you to drop your entire hand at any time you want. With the DDD startegy your whole hand is pretty dead, which is not nice with Dread Return, Bridge or Ichorid in your hand. Also, PImp can swing for 2 with evasion while Tribe blocks everything away. Apart from that they are C.Therapy/Dread Return food.
The chance that your opponent removes your Imp/Tribe and you don't hit any Dredgers in the subsequent Dredges is pretty low, it practically never happens. Actually the chance that your opponent uses a discard Spell like Duress or Thoughtseize in order to rip your Draw spell, while simultaneously preventing your next End Step discard is higher.

[sa17dk]

Against blue decks, that try to counter your discard outlets this is the only right way to go. But that strategy shouldn't always be applied. Against decks without counters you'll rather have a turn 1 Tribe/Imp. This allows Coliseum activations on turn 2, playing around daze turn 2, Breakthrough x=1 on turn 2 and other things. Most importantly it allows you to drop your entire hand at any time you want. With the DDD startegy your whole hand is pretty dead, which is not nice with Dread Return, Bridge or Ichorid in your hand. Also, PImp can swing for 2 with evasion while Tribe blocks everything away. Apart from that they are C.Therapy/Dread Return food.
The chance that your opponent removes your Imp/Tribe and you don't hit any Dredgers in the subsequent Dredges is pretty low, it practically never happens. Actually the chance that your opponent uses a discard Spell like Duress or Thoughtseize in order to rip your Draw spell, while simultaneously preventing your next End Step discard is higher.

Exactly.

There's no reason why you should be going for the DDD plan against non-blue decks. Against blue decks it's worth it to trade speed for the uncounterable dredger-discard. Against other decks you should be going out there and smashing their face.

It's also worth mentioning that your strategy wont work all the time. If you decide to draw and they go turn 1 Relic, they'll just use the tap ability and make you cry.

[Bozon]

True, Bloodghast's landfall is enormous with Paradise and Salvage. Maybe you didn't read my post? That's just the point; Paradise and especially Darkmoor Salvage are just crap. And Bloodghast needs them in order to work...

Ok, it will I do receive not agree on this point.

And wath you do after three PtE, StP, Relic or Tormod's when you have two or three Icho, FKZ or Iona removed? You loose!

[kicks_422]

You smash face with the Zombie tokens you already should have if you're a decent player.

Seriously, stop it.

[frogboy]

Ok, it will I do receive not agree on this point.

And wath you do after three PtE, StP, Relic or Tormod's when you have two or three Icho, FKZ or Iona removed? You loose!

Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.

[Bozon]

Bloodghast can't beat a Kird Ape.

Precisely with BfB and U Paradis this is combo. Bloodgast vs Kird Ape make one or too 2/2. Before the next Landfall.

[kicks_422]

Bloodghast can't block.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.

But not before the PImp carts Narcomoeba around town.
It was an abusive relationship, I recall.
Bashing in with a 2/2 flyer sometimes takes it all.

[SHABOOGS]

The chance that your opponent removes your Imp/Tribe and you don't hit any Dredgers in the subsequent Dredges is pretty low, it practically never happens.This isn't entirely true in my case. One dredger in the yard with no discard outlet and praying to hit another dredger in your draw step does happen but I'd rather have a permanent discard outlet (clean up step) and one dredger to consistently dredge every turn.


Actually the chance that your opponent uses a discard Spell like Duress or Thoughtseize in order to rip your Draw spell, while simultaneously preventing your next End Step discard is higher.Again, this isn't true in my case since I don't see a lot of black in the meta these days.

It's not that I don't want to play PImp. I just want to make sure that I don't throw away my only discard outlet when I play him so I try to figure out what my opponent is playing and see if he/she has some sort of removal or counter magic by going second. I'm just saying that dredge can live with an opening 7 that doesn't have PImp/Tribe.


It's also worth mentioning that your strategy wont work all the time. If you decide to draw and they go turn 1 Relic, they'll just use the tap ability and make you cry.I usually respond with land, nature's claim in this scenario.

[maxflow2]

Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.

This amused me. Probably because I've won far too many games against opponents who mulliganed aggressively for Leyline this way.

[Izor]

One dredger in the yard with no discard outlet and praying to hit another dredger in your draw step does happen but I'd rather have a permanent discard outlet (clean up step) and one dredger to consistently dredge every turn.

It's not that I don't want to play PImp. I just want to make sure that I don't throw away my only discard outlet when I play him so I try to figure out what my opponent is playing and see if he/she has some sort of removal or counter magic by going second. I'm just saying that dredge can live with an opening 7 that doesn't have PImp/Tribe.

I usually respond with land, nature's claim in this scenario.

Okay, I see what you mean. Of course I don't know your metagame. So if there are a lot of blue FoW decks it is probably okay to simply choose to draw in order to scout for blue decks and evade counters on your discard outlets. Also, the absence of black Discard spells is good news for DDDing.
Still I think that against decks of which you know that they don't have FoW/Daze, you should always cast your PImps, Tribes and Studies turn 1. It is right that there might occur a situation in which your opponent removes your outlet and you have do bin your hand but don't find any other Dredger. That's unlucky, but extremely rare. Actually I've rarely seen my opponent cast their Swords tPl or Path to Exile at my discard outlet. You should try to imagine their position: I could remove that Imp now but he'll drop his whole hand in response anyway and how high are my chances that he doesn't find (or already has) another Dredger. I better keep my Swords for an Ichorid, Grave-Troll, FKZ, Iona or whatever... And that's exactly what happens most of the time, at least from my expierience.
I see that the DDD strategy is quite reliable but the tempo loss is not worth it against non-blue decks.

But you're definitely right that Dredge can live with an opening 7 that doesn't have a discard outlet.

[SHABOOGS]

A friend using Ichorid won a big tourney last weekend. 114 players competed for a Mox Jet and he came out on top. I dropped out from the top 16 when I lost the last round to Zoo. Here are the photos of the event (with top 8 decklists): http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/album.php?aid=45734&id=112843112063473

[Zappa]

Hey guys I am going to a different area to play magic this week, but there's 1 match up I wanted to inquire about, as I am very unfamiliar with the match up. In case I fight against a Vengevine survival deck, can anyone let me know what to expect? Is this a match that I need a very aggressive hand? Or can is this something I can slow play as well? What usual hate should I expect? Thanks, I haven't fought the deck before so I am unfamiliar with it, but from what I've been hearing/reading it seems to be popular, so I wanted to be prepared and have an idea what to expect.

By the way, I play Non-LED dredge, with 15 lands, 11 dredgers, and 1 MD reanimation target.

[ivanpei]

I think you would expect to see faerie macabre after board. Once they have survival online, you've lost. They can recur macabre if they run emrakul SB as well, giving them unlimited gravehate once they get going. I would prefer to go off fast and not slowroll.

@ Shaboogs, wow thats a huge turnout! You guys must have a huge legacy scene! I actually have a friend in KL who is from the the Philippines and I play legacy with him (Owen). If only we can fly there to play. Maybe during the next GP Side event!

[SHABOOGS]

I think you would expect to see faerie macabre after board. Once they have survival online, you've lost. They can recur macabre if they run emrakul SB as well, giving them unlimited gravehate once they get going. I would prefer to go off fast and not slowroll.

@ Shaboogs, wow thats a huge turnout! You guys must have a huge legacy scene! I actually have a friend in KL who is from the the Philippines and I play legacy with him (Owen). If only we can fly there to play. Maybe during the next GP Side event!This was the 2nd largest turnout here in the Philippines this year (1st was the legacy side event at GP Manila with 127 players). It was nice to see Dredge winning such a big tournament here. Owen? Is he also known as owenz in the web? We know each other if he's the same guy.

[Izor]

Hey guys I am going to a different area to play magic this week, but there's 1 match up I wanted to inquire about, as I am very unfamiliar with the match up. In case I fight against a Vengevine survival deck, can anyone let me know what to expect? Is this a match that I need a very aggressive hand? Or can is this something I can slow play as well? What usual hate should I expect? Thanks, I haven't fought the deck before so I am unfamiliar with it, but from what I've been hearing/reading it seems to be popular, so I wanted to be prepared and have an idea what to expect.

By the way, I play Non-LED dredge, with 15 lands, 11 dredgers, and 1 MD reanimation target.

In order to answer this it would be nice to know what that one DR Target is. If it is Iona, that will definitely give you a good shot against VengeVival, for she stops their whole engine and simultaneously blocks away flying Vengevines.

Generally it will be very hard to win by slow rolling. Against landstill and the like you can do that without fearing much, for they don't have a clock. 3 flying Vengevines on turn 2, however, I would dare to say that is a clock.

At that point one has to differenciate, because your chances and strategy depend largely on the colors they play.

There are several lists around by now, that don't run blue any more. Against those you should just play as fast as you can and try to win as fast as possible.
Against lists with blue, you'll face pretty much the same problems as against Merfolk or Reanimator. You don't want to have your only discard outlet countered but slow rolling by DDDing could be too slow against their clock. Having multiple discard outlets in your opening hand will increase your chances to resolve one. For instance, if you are on the play and have two discard outlets and two lands in your opener, I would be aggressive and play them. In that scenario they will need 2 Force of Will plus pitch cards in order to counter your outlets, which is very unlikely. If you're on the draw, Daze is a much bigger threat and it could be a better strategy to start slowly by discarding a Dredger in your first Cleanup step.

Hate:
As stated above, Faerie Macabre will be a common threat. Most lists with Survival use her because they can tutor her up. Apart from that the usual hate artifacts Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus should be the most common hate pieces. Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer are off-color, so they should be rare (note however lists with a black splash could run Yixlid for the same reasons as Macabre: Survival can search for it).
All in all, Nature's Claim would be a great anti-hate card, hitting Survival, Crypt, Relic as well as Leyline and Wheel of sun and Moon. But Grudge, Needle, Chain of Vapor or whatever you run should work as well as soon as you know what your opponent has.

EDIT: As far as Dread Return targets are concerned it should be noted that Iona is probably your best bet against VengeVival. Especially non-white lists which don't have Swords to Plowshares will have a really tough time getting past her. Iona is strictly better than Grave Trolls here because she can block flying Vengevines and because it will be quite hard to actually recur Vengevines without green spells (no Rootwallas, no Noble Hierarchs, or no Survival at all if they don't have it yet).

[Hopo]

If you are discussing a single Dread Return target against vengevines, it would be Blazing Archon. Of course, white lists have removal, but this is the problem with Iona as well: if you name green, they remove it, if white, they cast green stuff and win. UG lists have pretty much nothing to stop any of your targets.

[Izor]

If you are discussing a single Dread Return target against vengevines, it would be Blazing Archon. Of course, white lists have removal, but this is the problem with Iona as well: if you name green, they remove it, if white, they cast green stuff and win. UG lists have pretty much nothing to stop any of your targets.

That is correct, Archon is awesome against them. But as I was also talking about game one, when a Dredge player won't have any Archons and due to the fact that Blazing Archon is very rare, even in the sideboard, I talked about Iona.
And as you say it depends on their colors. UG can't win through Iona on green at all. GW doesn't have counter spells, so you can just play aggressively and your clock should be faster than theirs. So from my expierience the biggest problem will be lists that run UGW, for they have access to counter spells as well as white removal. But those lists are pretty rare as far as I know...

[Zappa]

@Shaboogs

Regarding the DDD plan by going 2nd. Are you doing this game 1 or 3? I once tried to DDD on game 3 against MUC since they like to counter my discard outlets, however, seeing a Relic on turn 1 backed with counters from them is just... ugh.

EDIT: I mentioned game 1 coz I don't know if you're like me who likes to spy on people after ending your matches quickly. So it's possible you know what you're against game 1.

[SHABOOGS]

I choose to go 2nd almost all the time (with going against storm/belcher as the only exceptions). going 2nd also nets me 1 more card which could help me improve my opening hand in addition to being able to go the DDD route. The DDD route does change post board depending on what kind of hate they bring in but getting them to go first gives me an idea on what kind of hate they have and how I can deal with them. I also like to look around and watch other people's matches whenever I finish my matches quickly so that I can get an idea of the tournament meta.

[frogboy]

Being on the draw against Zoo or whatever is pretty awful.

Also, what if you, like, mulligan?

[SHABOOGS]

Could you elaborate how awful it is going on the draw against zoo in your case? I've had no problems with zoo being on the draw (pre and post board). From my experience, you only lose to zoo if you kept a slow hand. You can DDD on your first turn then breakthrough, CC and/or DA+LED on the next (if you hit a dredger or two) and win. If I mulligan, I obviously drop the DDD plan and look for a better opening hand.

[Anusien]

Could you elaborate how awful it is going on the draw against zoo in your case? I've had no problems with zoo being on the draw (pre and post board). From my experience, you only lose to zoo if you kept a slow hand. You can DDD on your first turn then breakthrough, CC and/or DA+LED on the next (if you hit a dredger or two) and win. If I mulligan, I obviously drop the DDD plan and look for a better opening hand.
You must be very very lucky to always get "Dredger + Cephalid Coliseum + Breakthrough + other land" hands without mulliganing.

[SHABOOGS]

You must be very very lucky to always get "Dredger + Cephalid Coliseum + Breakthrough + other land" hands without mulliganing.Sorry for the typo there. What I meant to say was you can drop a land and cast breakthrough or drop cephalid coliseum and LED and activate cephalid coliseum with LED or drop LED, activate it and flashback deep analysis on your second turn. Of course there are times when you can perform 2 of those draw effects mentioned. Although I don't always get "Dredger + Cephalid Coliseum + Breakthrough + other land" hands and this is just based on my experience but I get a hand with "dredger, coliseum, and LED" more often than I should so going second also helps me reach threshold to make the LED+CC on the first turn possible (but I still DDD on the first turn).

[frogboy]

you must be fortunate to always draw Breakthrough/Study/Colisem/LED+Deep is Anusien's point, I think. And to never mulligan when the discard step is your only outlet.

[SHABOOGS]

Most decklists does have at least 10 or more of each component (land, dredger, draw effect) so having one of each in an opening hand should be consistent enough (at least consistent enough in my experience with the deck). Having a permanent discard outlet in your opening 7 is a bonus when your going second since you have the clean up step as an uncounterable discard outlet for your dredger.

[ivanpei]

I usually only choose to draw when going against slow blue with heavy counters (force in particular). However now I'm starting to doubt that option since I play firestorm postboard. I think being on the play and finding a better hand is more important than choosing to draw and pitching during the discard step. Being on the draw opens you up to crap like daze, spell pierce which are a pain. Mulliganning is very important and common when playing this deck. Choosing to draw IMO is not a very good idea in 90% of cases.

[Anusien]

Most decklists does have at least 10 or more of each component (land, dredger, draw effect) so having one of each in an opening hand should be consistent enough (at least consistent enough in my experience with the deck). Having a permanent discard outlet in your opening 7 is a bonus when your going second since you have the clean up step as an uncounterable discard outlet for your dredger.
It's far far far less than 50% to have one of each with 10 cards for each role. I actually did the math at one point.

[frogboy]

Most decklists does have at least 10 or more of each component (land, dredger, draw effect) so having one of each in an opening hand should be consistent enough (at least consistent enough in my experience with the deck). Having a permanent discard outlet in your opening 7 is a bonus when your going second since you have the clean up step as an uncounterable discard outlet for your dredger.

Multivariate hypergeometric distribution gives you a probability of .49 that you will draw one or more lands, one or more dredgers, and one or more draw spells when you have twelve lands, twelve dredgers, and twelve draw spells. With ten of each, p=.36.

Consider buying lottery tickets.

[SHABOOGS]

If you add the 8 discard outlets in the mix then it'll be p<.36 which means that it's more difficult to look for a discard outlet compared to the other components in your opening hand which is why I prefer to go second most of the times.

[keys]

Have you guys ever played an LED version with 14+ lands? It's far easier to assemble Breakthrough/Careful Study -> crack LED in resp -> dredge. Not only that, but the ability to just hard cast creatures is extremely useful and underutilized IMO.

I'm playing 11 Dredgers, 6 draw (4 Breakthrough, 2 Careful Study) + 2 Deep Analysis, and 14 land (2 Citadels) and it's a lot more consistent than the typical 12 land setup, while also retaining the explosiveness of LED.

I still have room for 3 Ichorid, 2 Dread Return (3 would be best, but it's fair sacrifice), FKZ and Sphinx.

My SB has Tribes and the 4th Ichorid, so I can pretty easily transition into LEDless dredge for game 2 on the draw.

[ivanpei]

Sorry keys, I am a firm believer of non-led but 14 lands + led seems much better. If you need the speed in a combo-ish meta, I think your list looks very solid.

Ok just observations, I play the standard non-led lists with 4 of everything expect with 15 lands. I followed everyone's advise and cut an ichorid for the 15th land but I've noticed that dread return is a better cut. With just 3 ichorids, I can rarely flashback dread return (I run 2). I use my dudes to flash cabal therapies first and I rarely have enough to get out a dread return. And when I actually do flash it back for a golgari grave troll, it usually feels "win more". So is playing the 4th ichorid and just 1 dread return MD a good idea? I have the 2nd dread return in the board along with 2 targets. Cheers!

[sa17dk]

I personally prefer Iona and FKZ, but if I had to run FKZ + Sphinx/Witness, I would run the Witness.

Anyways, so I've been trying to build a list that combines the best of both worlds as I've been constantly switching back and forth between LED and non-LED dredge. I like the explosiveness of the LED builds, but I also like the increased land count of the LED-less versions. The biggest problem I had with the LED build was that I would get hands with LED, Breakthrough, and a dredger, but no land to actually cast the Breakthrough. The other problem was getting hands without LED. When that happens I'm basically playing a shittier version of non-LED dredge cause the deck runs less lands, no Tribes, and dead DA's. As a result, when I dont have LED the rest of the hand/other hands tend to be less keepable.

Thus, I want a hybrid build that would incorporate the following in the MD (in addition to all the other normal dredge stuff of course):

2-3 Tireless Tribes
3-4 LED
2 Deep Analysis
14 Lands

The hard part is figuring out what to cut. I'm probably going to have to cut all the other cute maindeck DR targets (e.g. Iona). Many people have already advocated cutting cute maindeck Dread Return targets because theyre not needed. Results seem to agree: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37949. I'm not sure that FKZ is really even needed at all except in the combo matchup. I mean, imagine it's game one, and you manage to do the whole LED + Breakthrough + Deep Analysis bullshit on turn 1. Now you've basically dredged your entire deck and have a million zombie tokens. Realistically, what's going to stop you? Very few decks - with the exception of decks like Enchantress - can do anything about it.

This is the preliminary list I've been thinking of:

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
3 Tireless Tribe

Enchantments:
4 Bridge from below

Artifacts:
4 Lion's eye Diamond

Sorceries:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

Lands:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

This was from a while back when I was tinkering with a stable LED hybrid.

[Zappa]

In order to answer this it would be nice to know what that one DR Target is... *snip*

I don't know how I totally missed your post while I posted. But anyways, I played 4 rounds of swiss, having a 3-1 record. Losing my 3rd match vs Survival deck. I totally didn't have any experience playing against it. It's unfortunate that I did not see your post, when it's the very top of this page. I would have had changed my main decked dread return target, and followed your advise had I seen it. Iona is normally my DR target, but I wasn't so sure at the time so I took her out.

Here's the list that I had at the time.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

1 Darkblast

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Angel of Despair



Sideboard:
2 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen


I won against Merfolk, then won against Zoo, lost against survival deck with vengevines, and almost lost against a BW Leyline/Helm of Obedience that had main decked Leyline and Bojuka bog and he even had tormod's crypt in the sideboard, and he apperantly had a main decked Moat which he told me he was hoping to see... what the heck.

[GoldenCid]

Sorry keys, I am a firm believer of non-led but 14 lands + led seems much better. If you need the speed in a combo-ish meta, I think your list looks very solid.

Ok just observations, I play the standard non-led lists with 4 of everything expect with 15 lands. I followed everyone's advise and cut an ichorid for the 15th land but I've noticed that dread return is a better cut. With just 3 ichorids, I can rarely flashback dread return (I run 2). I use my dudes to flash cabal therapies first and I rarely have enough to get out a dread return. And when I actually do flash it back for a golgari grave troll, it usually feels "win more". So is playing the 4th ichorid and just 1 dread return MD a good idea? I have the 2nd dread return in the board along with 2 targets. Cheers!

If you are running as DR target just the GGT 2 DR is enought. Rely on your 4 ichorids. I always say: "never less than 4 ichorids".

[Izor]

If you are running as DR target just the GGT 2 DR is enought. Rely on your 4 ichorids. I always say: "never less than 4 ichorids".

This is in my opinion a matter of preference. I understand why people want to run 4 and it certainly has its benefits. For me, however, 3 has always been enough. 3 is usually enough to win a game through DDDing without ever playing a land or casting a spell (which happens quite often against Stax and the like). 3 is also enough to flashback the Dread Returns whenever one wants. In fact, I've never had difficulties with that, even if I didn't reanimate any Ichorid in my Upkeep. 3 Ichorids, 8 discard Dorks, 4 Moebas in conjunction with 4 Therapies and 4 Bridges should always be enough. Also, I've very often had situations when I just had as many black creatures in my graveyard as I had Ichorids. And then I always found that the 4th would be too much. Generally, at that point when you start feeding one Ichorid to another quite often, I think the 4th is too much. And the last point that made me run 3 is the fact that it's one more dead card in your opening hand.

I think one can compare the 3 Ichorid vs 4 Ichorid issue to the Dread Return problem. 3 is definitely better, bacause it basically halves the chance that you don't hit one after resolving Breakthrough on turn 2. But as we don't necessarily need to play DR in order to win and as it's also a dead card in the opener, many people are satisfied with 2. The only instances when I really miss the 4th Ichorid is when one or two get Sworded or Pathed.

@ Zappa: Congratz for a good finish. Yes, it might be that Iona could have saved you the match against Survival and it would probably have been the better option over Angel, for you didn't face a problematic permanent from what I read in your post. But anyway, after the tourney it's always easy to claim what should have been different and also, VengeVival is simply a damn good deck (although I believe that the Dredge matchup belongs to their worse).
And I really like your list, it's almost the same as I use to run. I think, however, that the 4th Tribe could help you (also against VV if they don't have Wonder). You don't have room for it?

[Zappa]

I could probably take out a land for the 4th tribe, but running 15 really satisfies my comfort level. I could take out the darkblast, but I've come across several scenarios where it is just nice to have access to when I can. I could take out the 1 MD dread return target, I mean yes, I can agree that GGT is enough to win games. However, I feel that the deck will do indeed get a little more consistency, at a cost of power (Iona simply wins games). But it is just not something I feel comfortable doing, it's all about balance for me, and deck is consistent enough with just 1. The only thing left for me to consider is the breakthrough or the careful study. However, majority of my matches I tend to board out breakthrough, as I favor careful study. But breakthrough is my favorite card on game 1s however. So at the moment I am at a loss, what to take out for the 4th, but I am comfortable with my current set up though.

Vengevine matchup was hard, but I think I could have won that match, had I played things differently. But no point thinking about it now. Final match though against that helm deck was a nightmare. I was glad for running 15 lands, and being able to cast and just swing with Imps and narcomoebas.

Well atleast I got some experience playing against survival, I saw quite a bit of players too playing with it, just some people uses red. I guess it's the flavor of the month.

[SHABOOGS]

This was from a while back when I was tinkering with a stable LED hybrid.I just started testing a similar build with -1 Ichorid, +1 Iona coz I think GGT sometimes isn't fast enough in an aggro infested meta and it looks good on paper since it has 11 dredgers, 11 discard outlets, 10 draw effects, and 10 rainbow lands.

[Ian]

Hi everbody

I'm new to this site and I need some help...
Can anyone show me the best Ichorid deck for the moment? And maybe give some advice about other decks?


My regards

Ian

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hi everbody

I'm new to this site and I need some help...
Can anyone show me the best Ichorid deck for the moment? And maybe give some advice about other decks?


My regards

Ian

The best Ichorid deck depends on your meta. And for other decks, knowledge is key. Read other DTB or Established threads.

[SHABOOGS]

Question: What DR target would be the most effective in todays meta that's infested with survival decks? I don't think Iona (on green) can slow down Survival anymore coz I noticed they bring other non green creatures like memnite, shield sphere, shrieking drake, etc. in their 75 so that they can trigger vengvines. I even saw Gilded Drakes and Waterfront Bouncers in some lists during last weekend's legacy tournament.

[nothix9]

Question: What DR target would be the most effective in todays meta that's infested with survival decks? I don't think Iona (on green) can slow down Survival anymore coz I noticed they bring other non green creatures like memnite, shield sphere, shrieking drake, etc. in their 75 so that they can trigger vengvines. I even saw Gilded Drakes and Waterfront Bouncers in some lists during last weekend's legacy tournament.

I think its time for a 2nd turn terastodon. stax are also getting back on the meta. I was a defeated by a rouge blue bulls hit deck that packed a propaganda game 1.

[SHABOOGS]

It's kinda difficult to pull off a 2nd turn rasta don on a consistent basis. Plus they have Fauna Shaman (which rasta don can't touch) as survival copy #5-8. I'm looking for a DR target that can turn things around (against survival) on the 3rd or 4th turn (If such a creature does exist). I dropped Iona in the hybrid list (simillar to sa17dk) that I am currently testing for Reveillark (coz I really can't think of any other creature at the moment).

[nothix9]

It's kinda difficult to pull off a 2nd turn rasta don on a consistent basis. Plus they have Fauna Shaman (which rasta don can't touch) as survival copy #5-8. I'm looking for a DR target that can turn things around (against survival) on the 3rd or 4th turn (If such a creature does exist). I dropped Iona in the hybrid list (simillar to sa17dk) that I am currently testing for Reveillark (coz I really can't think of any other creature at the moment).

yah i agree its kinda hard. but i think our option is we just force to be faster or shut it down there and there. we need to have answer that can do those things once we dr. Im thinking of angel of despair, terastodon, blazing archon, iona on green. are they really that consistent on a turn 2 survival.

[mkushrom]

What about the Sphinx of the Steel Wind? Big, with Vigilace, Flying and Lifelink, al proGreen. Simply great VS Vengevines if your opponent has no removal in his hand... or we have an Iona

[Izor]

Targets like Sphinx of the steel Wind could be good against VengeVival, but I don't think that such a creature should be used in Dredge at all. A creature has to have a certain effective ability in order to be played. Creatures that are just bombs only take away our important slots.
Permanent destroyers like Terastodon and Woodfall Primus are rather efficient and you can still therapy away the remaining Survivals and Fauns Shamans from their hand.
Blazing Archon can abvioisly buy you some time but I'm not sure if it can win for you in the end.

So for me Iona is still the best bet. She's a 7/7 Flyer, who will certainly race a significantly slowed Survival engine. Even IF the Survival deck runs Memnite and other non-green creatures, those will never be enough to recur VVs more than once after Iona enters the field. Lists that run Withe for removal will have less problems against Iona of course.

Generally, if you know you're up against Survival of any sort, just try to get your hands on Cabal Therapy. Without Survival, a Survival deck becomes a mediocre Aggro deck at best, especially the VV builds. If you get the chance you can also Therapy away Fauna Shamans, but I don't think that Fauna Shamans would be able to race our clock like Survival can. So as long as they don't topdeck like an idiot after Therapy, you shuld race them.

[IrishLegend]

I havent been playing dredge as long as some of you guys. But would Leyline of the Void help in the survial matchup?

[SHABOOGS]

yah i agree its kinda hard. but i think our option is we just force to be faster or shut it down there and there. we need to have answer that can do those things once we dr. Im thinking of angel of despair, terastodon, blazing archon, iona on green. are they really that consistent on a turn 2 survival. Well, most of them tend to mulligan into survival.


So for me Iona is still the best bet. She's a 7/7 Flyer, who will certainly race a significantly slowed Survival engine. Even IF the Survival deck runs Memnite and other non-green creatures, those will never be enough to recur VVs more than once after Iona enters the field. Lists that run Withe for removal will have less problems against Iona of course.

Generally, if you know you're up against Survival of any sort, just try to get your hands on Cabal Therapy. Without Survival, a Survival deck becomes a mediocre Aggro deck at best, especially the VV builds. If you get the chance you can also Therapy away Fauna Shamans, but I don't think that Fauna Shamans would be able to race our clock like Survival can. So as long as they don't topdeck like an idiot after Therapy, you shuld race them.Iona on green can slow them down but I think the window created by Iona for dredge to win nowadays just got smaller. Yes, It'll be hard for them to recur VVs more than once but I think they won't need to recur them more than once to win. They can survival up all 4 Vengvines EOT and just cast memnite+shield sphere or memnite+shieking drake on their turn and race you from that point. Plus if they have waterfront bouncers and gilded drakes they can just bounce Iona (On Green) or even worse, use her against you. I've also seen lists with Quiron Ranger which speeds up the Fauna Shaman engine. The good thing here is that because they put in more utility creatures, they have less countermagic to stop you so yeah, early CT on Fauna/Survival will be enough to win you the game (unless they top deck another copy of course).


I havent been playing dredge as long as some of you guys. But would Leyline of the Void help in the survial matchup?For me, I'd rather board in Pithing Needles, Nature's Claim, or Ray of Revelation than LoTV against survival. I'm not a fan of LoTV as a sideboard card for dredge since you 1) need it in your opening hand (which means adding another component to look for in an opening hand) and 2) can't cast it when you draw it (which makes it a dead card).

[Izor]

For me, I'd rather board in Pithing Needles, Nature's Claim, or Ray of Revelation than LoTV against survival. I'm not a fan of LoTV as a sideboard card for dredge since you 1) need it in your opening hand (which means adding another component to look for in an opening hand) and 2) can't cast it when you draw it (which makes it a dead card).

I totally agree.

Nonetheless, the answer to the initial question is: Yes, of course does Leyline help against Survival decks. They will rarely be prepared for it, so it should be able to win you games on its own.
But as Shaboogs said, it's very risky to take that route. Dredge already has certain requirements for its oprning hand, so having to mulligan into Leyline will more often than not leave you with a really bad hand in the end. So it's really only worth boarding Leyline if it will win you the game on its own, so if you don't need a really fast hand to back it up (like for example in the mirror, against Cephalid Breakfast or against Reanimator). Against Lands or Threshold, however, against which most decks will usually board their grave hate, boarding Leyline with Dredge might be a bad idea, because the necessary mulligans couldl actually slow you down more than your opponent.
So you should only board Leylines against VengeVival if you're sure you can afford the mulligans (or if you feel extremely lucky). Apart from that, versatile things like Nature's Claim will help just as much (if you remove Survival directly after it comes into play, your opponent will probably never get the chance to use it).

[SHABOOGS]

Sorry, I forgot to answer the question and I agree with what Izor said. But I'd like to add, if you plan on running LoTV, just be mindful of trygon predators in the survival's 75.

[Careve]

I don't know how I totally missed your post while I posted. But anyways, I played 4 rounds of swiss, having a 3-1 record. Losing my 3rd match vs Survival deck. I totally didn't have any experience playing against it. It's unfortunate that I did not see your post, when it's the very top of this page. I would have had changed my main decked dread return target, and followed your advise had I seen it. Iona is normally my DR target, but I wasn't so sure at the time so I took her out.

Here's the list that I had at the time.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

1 Darkblast

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Angel of Despair



Sideboard:
2 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen


I won against Merfolk, then won against Zoo, lost against survival deck with vengevines, and almost lost against a BW Leyline/Helm of Obedience that had main decked Leyline and Bojuka bog and he even had tormod's crypt in the sideboard, and he apperantly had a main decked Moat which he told me he was hoping to see... what the heck.


Could you or anyone else write your general sideboarding strategy against several typical archetypes? I just began playing dredge with the same MD, and while playing dredge itself is clear to me, I really have little idea what can be taken from MD in sideboarding process and keep the right balance of discard outlets, dredge cards, etc.

[Izor]

Could you or anyone else write your general sideboarding strategy against several typical archetypes? I just began playing dredge with the same MD, and while playing dredge itself is clear to me, I really have little idea what can be taken from MD in sideboarding process and keep the right balance of discard outlets, dredge cards, etc.

In general, the cards that can be cut from the main deck when sideboarding are: Ichorid, Careful Sudy/Breakthrough, Golgari Thug, Cabal therapy, Tarnished Citadel, all maindecked Dread Return targets and maybe a Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe or two. The rest of the deck should be left untouched in order to keep consistency. Which of the above-mentioned cards and in what numbers you should take out depends on what deck you're playing against and on what you want to board in. Some examples:

Against Combo (ANT, TES, DDFT,...):
Here I would take in everything that could be relevant in your board. Chosen and Unmask for your specific list should definitely come in. What you can cut are Ichorids, for they're much too slow against that opponent. Ancient grudge can also come in handy, because you can force them to sac their LEDs whenever you want. So for your list I would probably board something like:
+1 Ancestor's Chosen, +2 Unmask, -1 Angel of Despair, +3 Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim; -3 Ichorid, -1 Darkblast, -1 Tarnished Citadel

Against Aggro (Zoo, Merfolk, Bant, Goblins, Survival, Death and Taxes, White Weenie, ...):
Firestorm and Chosen are your best friends here. Also you should board according to their hate, so generally either 4 Nature's Claim or Ancient grudge. What can be cut are an Ichorid, some Dredgers, Careful Studies and Angel of Despair. Ichorid is not that important against Aggro for he's rather slow. Against non-blue Aggro a Cabal Therapy can also go out. So:
-1 Angel of Despair, -4 Careful Study, -1 Ichorid, -1 Cabal Therapy, -2 Golgari Thug; +4 Firestorm, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, +4 Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim (always Claim against Survival. And Claim if you expect Leyline of the Void or Wheel of Sun and Moon. Otherwise, take Grudges)

Against Control (Landstill variants, Slower CounterTop variants, Mono-U Control,...)
You want to concentrate on beating their hate here, for you will usually win easily as soon as you got rid of it and got your engine going. So I would board in a combination of Grudges, Claims and Ray of Revelation. Which ones you should take of course depend on what kind of hate they have, but against basically all control decks, 4 Grudges are a house. Nature's Claim should complement or replace grudges if you expect things like Humility, Propaganda as well as Leyline and Wheel again. As I said it depends a lot on different aspects. But roughly:
-4 Careful Study, -1 Darkblast; +4 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ray of Revelation (Landstill, CounterTop) or +4 Nature's Claim, +1 Ray of Revelation (MUC)

Other decks:
Against field locking (control)- decks like Lands, Stax or Enchantress you would really love to have Terastodon or Woodfall Primus over Angel of Despair. Anyway, definitely take in all the Nature's Claims and complement them by one or two Ancient Grudges and/or Ray of Revelation. Careful Studies and a Darkblast should go.

Remember that those were only rough ideas. Other people might board otherwise and certain matchups might require specific strategies, which I didn't mention for I only grouped the most common deck archetypes together.

[Izor]

Accidentally double-posted, Sorry for that.

[Zappa]

Have had plenty of practice against survival now. I don't know, I do not find that match up all that hard at all anymore. My loss from back then was just due to me not having absolutely any experience playing against it. But for me, I find Cabal Therapy and Unmasks to be enough, though it does dilute the deck a bit since I'm adding Nature's Claim as well. However, instead of replacing specific cards that I normally take out. Since I am bringing in more cards than usual, I tend to take out certain pieces, in order to keep a consistent ratio of the pieces. Like land/outlet/draw/dredger. Some lists that runs blue can be annoying with their brainstorm response though.

[Anusien]

Vengevines don't seem to be a problem at all. Most Survival decks only have Jitte to remove your bridges, and they can't 20 you. So it seems really easy to get to a point where you have enough flying blockers and whatnot to not get killed, then swing back for lethal. You get to a point where they can never attack, so you just keep making Zombies with Ichorid.

The problem card is Necrotic Ooze.

[DragoFireheart]

UG lists have pretty much nothing to stop any of your targets.

This is highly incorrect as many verisons maindeck either Waterfront bouncer or Man-O'-War main.

[Izor]

This is highly inccorect as many verisons maindeck either Waterfront bouncer or Man-O'-War main.

That's right, some lists play those in order to remove problematic creatires like DR targets. Nonetheless I think that Dredge is definitely one of the few decks out there that has a pretty good matchup against vengevival. With Vengevivals everywhere, dredge should definitely be strong in the metagame.

The best strategy still is discarding their Survival. If you magane that and have gas in your hand, it's pretty much over. Fauna Shaman is much too slow to handle Dredge's speed. In my expierience the best play against survival decks is: turn 1 Discard dork, turn 2 Therapy on Survival + flashback Therapy on Fauna Shaman. You don't always have a Therapy, of course. But if you have it, it's great.

And yes, Necrotic ooze combo can be annoying. Luckily that Ooze thing requires 4 mana, 2 of which have to be black (remember that Noble Hierarch doesn't produce black). So the earliest chance for them to have the combo together is turn 3, which is still pretty fast. But if we can pull of a FKZ win or an Iona on turn 2 we are still faster.

Another good thing is the fact that they will not have everything that harms you at the same time. Ooze lists are usually non-blue, thus don't have countermagic, and vice versa.

[Parax]

Is there ever a reason to play all four dread returns? Right now i'm playing 3 and wondering if there should ever be a reason for me to play a fourth either main or in the side.

[jandax]

Flex slots are very few, three seems to be the right number because of the ratio of DR targets (sans trolls). Usually, FKZ or Iona are the prime targets, again GGT's are fine targets in given situations, but a fourth DR is too much. I wouldn't cut a therapy or DR target for it, nor would I cut a discard outlet or draw source. Normally I'm greedy but I wouldn't

[DragoFireheart]

That's right, some lists play those in order to remove problematic creatires like DR targets. Nonetheless I think that Dredge is definitely one of the few decks out there that has a pretty good matchup against vengevival. With Vengevivals everywhere, dredge should definitely be strong in the metagame.

The best strategy still is discarding their Survival. If you magane that and have gas in your hand, it's pretty much over. Fauna Shaman is much too slow to handle Dredge's speed. In my expierience the best play against survival decks is: turn 1 Discard dork, turn 2 Therapy on Survival + flashback Therapy on Fauna Shaman. You don't always have a Therapy, of course. But if you have it, it's great.

And yes, Necrotic ooze combo can be annoying. Luckily that Ooze thing requires 4 mana, 2 of which have to be black (remember that Noble Hierarch doesn't produce black). So the earliest chance for them to have the combo together is turn 3, which is still pretty fast. But if we can pull of a FKZ win or an Iona on turn 2 we are still faster.

Another good thing is the fact that they will not have everything that harms you at the same time. Ooze lists are usually non-blue, thus don't have countermagic, and vice versa.


I completely agree with you. This deck along with Storm should be able to stomp SotF decks easily. We are simply too fast for them.

[GGoober]

Im starting to repick this deck again, just a curious question since Bloodghast has been discussed before, I know that Ichorid > Bloodghast in consensus, but observing most Ichorid lists with 15 lands, I feel that Tarnished Citadels are pushing the border of being playable/unplayable.

My proposed thought was playing about 14 lands for non-LED dredge:
4 Cephalid coliseum
4 City
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise (not too bad since it is waste-immune when you pass the turn, this deck only needs up to 2-lands to function)

Would a package of 4 Ichorid + 2 Bloodghast improve consistency with creatures coming back every turn to feed your bridges? Paradise will trigger with Bloodghast pretty easily.

I've seen this idea being explored (Ichorid/ghast hybrids) but I'm wondering if there's still any discussion/strength in Bloodghast or has it been entirely dismissed?

[CabalTherapy]

Do you guys think that this list http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfia75iaoIoI is still playable in today's meta?

It is maybe one of the fastest lists I ve ever played.

[Bane of the Living]

I have completely lost track of legacy in the past two years.

Is Chalice of the Void no longer a format defining card? I play in a small circle of friends and many of which advocate Pithing Needle for the anti-Survival plan. Both Needle and Chalice are amazing against a dredge deck who's only discard outlets are 1 drops with activated abilities.

I could never see myself playing without LED. The card is great even as a One With Nothing but when it combos with Deep Analyis or Breakthrough it can lead to the degenerate wins this deck was established for.

[Pltinum]

Im starting to repick this deck again, just a curious question since Bloodghast has been discussed before, I know that Ichorid > Bloodghast in consensus, but observing most Ichorid lists with 15 lands, I feel that Tarnished Citadels are pushing the border of being playable/unplayable.

My proposed thought was playing about 14 lands for non-LED dredge:
4 Cephalid coliseum
4 City
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise (not too bad since it is waste-immune when you pass the turn, this deck only needs up to 2-lands to function)

Would a package of 4 Ichorid + 2 Bloodghast improve consistency with creatures coming back every turn to feed your bridges? Paradise will trigger with Bloodghast pretty easily.

I've seen this idea being explored (Ichorid/ghast hybrids) but I'm wondering if there's still any discussion/strength in Bloodghast or has it been entirely dismissed?


I was wondering the same thing about bloodghast. But as for undiscovered paradise goes, it's not waste-immune as it returns to your hand at the beginning of your untap step. To me it seems kind of weird to play 2 paradise and 2 bloodghast, if I would do it I would put 4 of each.. Just test and play it? Then play it in a tournament and see how it turned out.. The more I think about it, the more I think that it isn't a stellar idea. (but I'm too new to dredge to give you a wise and intellegent answer :), those we're my 2 cents)

[GoldenCid]

I have completely lost track of legacy in the past two years.

Is Chalice of the Void no longer a format defining card? I play in a small circle of friends and many of which advocate Pithing Needle for the anti-Survival plan. Both Needle and Chalice are amazing against a dredge deck who's only discard outlets are 1 drops with activated abilities.

I could never see myself playing without LED. The card is great even as a One With Nothing but when it combos with Deep Analyis or Breakthrough it can lead to the degenerate wins this deck was established for.

Do not forget that breakthrought can play around chalice @ 1 just playing X = 1. It's an amazing discard outlet.

[Sunsatzu]

Do you guys think that this list http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfia75iaoIoI is still playable in today's meta?

It is maybe one of the fastest lists I ve ever played.

it all depends on how much blue is in your meta. winning turn 1 has not been neccessary for a long time, and non-LED lists with FKZ still win often on turns 2-3. my rule when running any combo deck is not to win the earliest turn possible, just the turn before my opponent can possibly kill me.

[Ozymandias]

I played the following list to a 3-1-1 swiss, top 4 finish at knight ware yesterday.

Mainboard:
Creatures :
1 Terastodon
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Stinkweed Imp

Others :
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

Lands :
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

60 Cards

Sideboard:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen

15 Cards

I beat burn 2-0 (Iona turn 2 both times), B/G/w gate/evagreen/Dark Horizons hybrid 2-1 (Got locked under his own persecutor one game!), and Merfolk 2-0 (he mulled to 5 G2). I lost round 4 to Vial Knights by getting hugely unlucky, but I was still able to draw into t8, where my opponent scooped to me, and then we split t4. So yay I guess.

[mossivo1986]

What are the merits of running terrastidon and or iona

[Hitman82]

Terastodon destroys lock pieces but Iona is just a waste of a slot.

[Dembones]

Terastodon destroys lock pieces but Iona is just a waste of a slot.

What lock pieces are you worried about when playing dredge? Just curious, haven't played legacy in some time, and I was thinking about picking this back up.

[GoldenCid]

What lock pieces are you worried about when playing dredge? Just curious, haven't played legacy in some time, and I was thinking about picking this back up.

He must be referring to things like moat or solitary confinement i think which doesn't justify the maindecking of terastodon. I think that ozymandias deck is suboptimal: 10 dredgers, 14 lands, 3 DR and just 2 (terastodon and iona) DR targets make a bad combination. Why Lion's Eye Diamond is not included in the list???

[SHABOOGS]

What lock pieces are you worried about when playing dredge? Just curious, haven't played legacy in some time, and I was thinking about picking this back up.Against Lands.dec, you wanna destroy stuff like Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle of Pendrell Valle. Against Stax.dec, you pretty much wanna destroy those annoying artifacts that prevent you from casting spells. Against Enchantress.dec, you need to deal with Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinment. And against various control decks, You wanna get rid of Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Moat, Humility, Dueling Grounds, etc.

[Hitman82]

What lock pieces are you worried about when playing dredge? Just curious, haven't played legacy in some time, and I was thinking about picking this back up.

I don't play the card at all. I was just answering his question. I could understand if someone wanted to bring it in to handle a deck with a lot of problem non-creature permanents.


Against Lands.dec, you wanna destroy stuff like Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle of Pendrell Valle. Against Stax.dec, you pretty much wanna destroy those annoying artifacts that prevent you from casting spells. Against Enchantress.dec, you need to deal with Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinment. And against various control decks, You wanna get rid of Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Moat, Humility, Dueling Grounds, etc.

Terastodon doesn't stop Humility. It triggers when it comes into play. If it comes into play, Humility makes it a 1/1 without abilities so it doesn't trigger. If it said, "As Terastodon comes into play.....", it would be different.

[SHABOOGS]

Yes, you're correct about humility. I was typing problematic cards for dredge and missed that. My bad.

[GoldenCid]

Against Lands.dec, you wanna destroy stuff like Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle of Pendrell Valle. Against Stax.dec, you pretty much wanna destroy those annoying artifacts that prevent you from casting spells. Against Enchantress.dec, you need to deal with Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinment. And against various control decks, You wanna get rid of Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Moat, Humility, Dueling Grounds, etc.

With the exception of elephant grass the rest of the cards you mention are a bit slow to make its effects. Chasm and tabernacle must be in the hand of your opo before turn 2-3 when the can tutor them with tolaria west which of course it has to be in hand too. Moreover glacial chasm is the most anoying card tabernacle does nothing if you go off (i play zealot) the next turn.
Confinement, propaganda, moat and so on are slow cards and you can deal with them with your therapies. In sume i think that terastodon is a good side card against this deck that aren't highly played, they are played off course but not with a frecuency that justify running terastodon maindeck.

[SHABOOGS]

Placing Terastodon/Woodfall Primus MD would be a meta call but for the most part it deserves a slot in the sideboard for decks that pack those types of cards. During post board games when you have GY hate to deal with as well, we are forced to play a little more conservatively. Which in turn gives them a chance to play those annoying cards that we also have to deal with.

[Izor]

Confinement, propaganda, moat and so on are slow cards and you can deal with them with your therapies. In sume i think that terastodon is a good side card against this deck that aren't highly played, they are played off course but not with a frecuency that justify running terastodon maindeck.

If it was only that easy. On paper we might be tempted to think everything above 2 mana should be too slow against us and won't survive a 2nd turn kill or a 2nd turn Therapy package. As Shaboogs pointed out above, that's unfortunately wrong. Dredge is a very frail deck and won't always have access to the perfect goldfish hand. Also, post board, when cheap hate cards come in it will be a lot easier for our opponents to survive until turn 3-4 to drop their hate permanents.

That's why Dredge requires to have a permanent removing DR target in the sb (Woodfall or Tera). Packing thise maindeck shouldn't be the best option, but in specific metagames it might be good.

[CabalTherapy]

I went 2-0-2 in a local tournament yesterday.
The deck performed very well.

1-1 against Zoo (time)
2-0 against Goyfsligh
2-0 against Mighty Quin
draw against GW VengevineMadness

http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiaiaN4vd

[EternalDragon09]

i have been testing this deck alot recently got a list compelled and it has been pretty consistant thoughts comments are all welcome and appreciated.

1 cephalid sage
1 FKZ
4 troll
3 thug
4 ichorid
4 narcomeoba
4 putrid imp
4 stinkweed
2 tireless tribe

4 breakthrough
4 careful study
4 cabal therapy
3 dread return

4 cephalid collesium
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
1 undiscovered paradise
1 tarnished citadel

[Hitman82]

Placing Terastodon/Woodfall Primus MD would be a meta call but for the most part it deserves a slot in the sideboard for decks that pack those types of cards. During post board games when you have GY hate to deal with as well, we are forced to play a little more conservatively. Which in turn gives them a chance to play those annoying cards that we also have to deal with.

I don't like sideboarding Dread Return-able creatures to handle my problems since most decks bring in cards to interact with my graveyard. I've really liked Nature's Claim for dealing with problem permanents, along with Chain of Vapor and good mulliganing.

[CabalTherapy]

1 cephalid sage
2 tireless tribe


Sage is crap.
Tireless Tribe is a monster, when you are playing against Zoo/Goblins/Goyfsligh...
It is very mighty to play Tribe first. So plz play 4 of them.

[frogboy]

If it was only that easy. On paper we might be tempted to think everything above 2 mana should be too slow against us and won't survive a 2nd turn kill or a 2nd turn Therapy package. As Shaboogs pointed out above, that's unfortunately wrong. Dredge is a very frail deck and won't always have access to the perfect goldfish hand. Also, post board, when cheap hate cards come in it will be a lot easier for our opponents to survive until turn 3-4 to drop their hate permanents.

That's why Dredge requires to have a permanent removing DR target in the sb (Woodfall or Tera). Packing thise maindeck shouldn't be the best option, but in specific metagames it might be good.

So you played an outlet on turn one, dredged on turn two, and you don't have a Therapy in your hand or yard, nor a Coliseum, Breakthrough, or Study, and your opponent is a psychopath and has Confinement or Propaganda or Moat in his maindeck, and has it on turn three? This is a frequent occurence? Really?

[sa17dk]

I went 2-0-2 in a local tournament yesterday.
The deck performed very well.

1-1 against Zoo (time)
2-0 against Goyfsligh
2-0 against Mighty Quin
draw against GW VengevineMadness

http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiaiaN4vd

Did you miss Firestorm at all?

[Izor]

So you played an outlet on turn one, dredged on turn two, and you don't have a Therapy in your hand or yard, nor a Coliseum, Breakthrough, or Study, and your opponent is a psychopath and has Confinement or Propaganda or Moat in his maindeck, and has it on turn three? This is a frequent occurence? Really?

Actually, no. It's not a frequent occurence. That's why I said that in my opinion we should have a permanent destroyer in the SB, not MB. Against Stax, Enchantress and Lands we simply need it. Those three decks I just mentioned actually do frequently have Propaganda effects by turn 1 or 2 (possibly supported by turn 1 Chalice @1).

Against other decks with such permanents we will usually be fast enough pre board and have access to Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim post board anyway, so we don't really need Tera here.

[CabalTherapy]

Did you miss Firestorm at all?

Honestly: Not.
Even against Zoo and Sligh I didn't miss it once.
I was very surprised that this board also performed well.
Returning Chosen against Sligh in the second game for over 30 life is just too sweet.

[PaRa]

I played following list 2 weeks ago and went 5:1 finishing 2nd out of 54 players.

4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
4 Bridge From Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
3 Tireless Tribe
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation

The list was really solid and i was forced to mulligan not very often.

The games where against:

Round 1: The Gate 2:0
Round 2: UGB Tempo 2:1 or 2:0 can't remember
Round 3: Deadguy 2:0
Round 4: The Gate: 2:1
Round 5: Lands 0:2
Round 6: Infect 2:0

The split Iona/Terastodon performed very good for me. Each one won me a game

I boarded in the Firestorm's only against Infect but they where not relevant at all...I'm really not sure about this slot..

[Ozymandias]

So you played an outlet on turn one, dredged on turn two, and you don't have a Therapy in your hand or yard, nor a Coliseum, Breakthrough, or Study, and your opponent is a psychopath and has Confinement or Propaganda or Moat in his maindeck, and has it on turn three? This is a frequent occurence? Really?

More than you would think. I regularly mulligan to poor hands with land, outlet, dredger, and often miss with the first blind Therapy. There are other problem permanents out there too, like Tabernacle and Chalice from lands, or Ghostly Prison from Stax, or Ensaring bridge from decks with enlightened tutor. Also, because Legacy is a format of fringe decks, so I would rather sacrifice the one MD slot to The Don then just be cold the first time an opponent drops a problem permanent.

[I am the brainwasher]

I agree with not playing Firestorm in sideboards, I played Sickening Dreams(Oh boi, extended WAS fun at a time) as an replacement in the sb to get an impression of the possibilities of the card, but I seldom liked it, even if it would have been a "real" Firestorm.

I wanted to touch another point (again?)
I play the same list as CabalTherapy (that one he linked on his last threads), just -:1: Thug, +:1:Darkblast and Chain of Vapor in the sb instead of Natures Claim (simply because I have only a single copy of that Claim:laugh:).
Dredge is not my 1st/pet deck, but I always loved it and was thinking about playing it on the next Tourneys I could reach and here starts the problem. I havent played many games for quite a time with this deck and I would be pleased to hear what the boarding plans are. I used to play this deck rather good, but I really dont want to stick just to my intuition and experience.

Long talk, short story, what are the boarding plans against: MERFOLK (Mono-U)
Zoo (Aggro-Naya, or Big-Zoo)
VENGE-VIVAL (G/W and U/G-Madness, maybe BANT-Survival)
TES/ANT
GOBLINS
STAXXX/LANDS
(NO-)ELVES
UGb/Can - THRESH

I know that those explanations are not a piece of cake, but I would be very pleased if more experienced players could help me out, thank you

[Izor]

I 2 weeks ago and went 5:1 finishing 2nd out of 54 players.

The split Iona/Terastodon performed very good for me. Each one won me a game

I boarded in the Firestorm's only against Infect but they where not relevant at all...I'm really not sure about this slot..

Congratz for a very good finish.

I also used to run a Tera main but over time I decided to go back to max consistency. The Tera was often handy to have, but it rarely won the games for me it was supposed to win for me. (See: You run it but lost against lands).

And on the Firestorm Topic. Well, this card is insanely good in this deck. But like some of you I have also noticed that whenever I Firestormed away my opponent's board, I could've just gone off and win the game with 10 Zombies and a Troll instead. Boarding in Firestorms usually requires me to board in (and out) like 6-8 cards, because I also want to be prepared for their hate. And I always wonder if I wouldn't be better off leaving Careful Studies in for the raw power after blowing up their hate, instead of being reactive with Firestorm.

[SHABOOGS]

Just got home from a legacy tourney that had a 66 player turnout. I finished 1st at the end of the swiss with a record of 5-1 using the list below. The top 8 decided to split the prize so no playoffs occured.

Mainboard:

//Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

//Spells
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

//Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below

//Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ray of Revelation

Here's a quick report of my matchups:
Round 1 vs NO Bant (2-0) - MVP: Iona
Round 2 vs UG Survival (0-2) - Notes: Cabal Therapy on Survival misses on both games. Mulled to oblivion on game 2 (Yes, it does happen)
Round 3 vs Faeries (2-1) - MVP: Iona Notes: Mulled to oblivion on game 2 (But it shouldn't happen too often!)
Round 4 vs High Tide (2-0) - MVP: Iona
Round 5 vs Dredge (2-0) - Notes: Won the die roll on game 1 and won on the 2nd turn (We both had ideal opening hands) and no hate found on game 2
Round 6 vs GW Survival (2-0) - Notes: Turn 2 Iona lock on game 1 and Cabal Therapy on Survival gets 3 copies on game 2!

As for Firestorm, I only boarded it against my match with UG Survival and I didn't see it during game 2. But I think it still deserves a slot in my 75 since it's much more easier to kill hate bears with it compared to the Darkblast tech. Then again, I just got my firestorms last month so I guess I should test it some more.

[Izor]

Just got home from a legacy tourney that had a 66 player turnout. I finished 1st at the end of the swiss with a record of 5-1 using the list below. The top 8 decided to split the prize so no playoffs occured.

Here's a quick report of my matchups:
Round 1 vs NO Bant (2-0) - MVP: Iona
Round 2 vs UG Survival (0-2) - Notes: Cabal Therapy on Survival misses on both games. Mulled to oblivion on game 2 (Yes, it does happen)
Round 3 vs Faeries (2-1) - MVP: Iona Notes: Mulled to oblivion on game 2 (But it shouldn't happen too often!)
Round 4 vs High Tide (2-0) - MVP: Iona
Round 5 vs Dredge (2-0) - Notes: Won the die roll on game 1 and won on the 2nd turn (We both had ideal opening hands) and no hate found on game 2
Round 6 vs GW Survival (2-0) - Notes: Turn 2 Iona lock on game 1 and Cabal Therapy on Survival gets 3 copies on game 2!

As for Firestorm, I only boarded it against my match with UG Survival and I didn't see it during game 2. But I think it still deserves a slot in my 75 since it's much more easier to kill hate bears with it compared to the Darkblast tech. Then again, I just got my firestorms last month so I guess I should test it some more.

Congratz for the finish.

Your repeated MVP: Iona statement underlines what I feel about her at the moment. She just wins games. Even against Bant and Faeries, which many people claim that she doesn't do anything against, because they have more than one color. The statement 'A Troll would have got the job done as well' just isn't right in most occasions, at least in my expierience.

And Firestorm, I still don't know. It's so good, but the very fact that it mostly forces me to board in and out at least 7 cards is annoying...

[SHABOOGS]

Well, in my experience at that tourney at the very least, there were times (these were turns 2 to 4) when I didn't have enough bridges in my yard to reanimate a large GGT and 6 or more zombies, or I didn't have enough creatures and had to split one creature just to successfully flashback DR. Instead of just waiting for a couple more turns to build an army, I reanimated Iona and got 0-3 zombies in the process and it pretty much had the same effect of a large GGT and an army of zombies. I even won with Iona against dredge on game 1 because I named blue when I reanimated her so that he couldn't cast Breakthrough and start a race.

[(nameless one)]

Hey SHABOOGS, how was Flame-Kin Zealot on the main? Was he actually relevant? We almost have the same MD, except I have a 3rd Citadel instead of FKZ. I might borrow use the same SB as you have since I am still working on that.

Also, why no Leyline of the Void on the side?

[GoldenCid]

Sage is crap.


Agree. Run Witness instead.


I don't like sideboarding Dread Return-able creatures to handle my problems since most decks bring in cards to interact with my graveyard. I've really liked Nature's Claim for dealing with problem permanents, along with Chain of Vapor and good mulliganing.

Why not?? If you think about it, at least in my case, creatures deals with other pernaments besides hate permanents: Tetastodon, Empyrial Archangel. Moreover they force your opo to active they hate (crypt, relic) prematurelly as well as flashback spells (Ancient grudge) it isn't so relevant if you loose your critter because it won't be the only respose to their hate and then you will go off more safely.

[SHABOOGS]

Hey SHABOOGS, how was Flame-Kin Zealot on the main? Was he actually relevant? We almost have the same MD, except I have a 3rd Citadel instead of FKZ. I might borrow use the same SB as you have since I am still working on that.

Also, why no Leyline of the Void on the side?In that tournament, FKZ didn't show himself too often since I didn't have a Sphinx or Sage to dredge what's left of my library after dredging with a draw spell. I think I only reanimated him once or twice in that tournament. I had very crappy dredges in that tournament: Not enough bridges for a lethat zombie army or not enough creatures to flashback DR. Which is why Iona became my MVP that day. I've never been a fan of Leylines in the Dredge 75 simply because you can't use it if you draw into it or if it gets bounced. I'm not saying that Leyline is bad in the Dredge SB, it's just my personal preference to fight Leylines in the mirror.

[GoldenCid]

not enough creatures to flashback DR. Which is why Iona became my MVP that day.

Running only 3 ichorids could be he cause of this.

On the other hand i agree with the comment about leyline.

On the other other hand...i'm a bit sad that this thread has became into ledless dredge!

[(nameless one)]

What about Coffin Purge as a means of gravehate?

[frogboy]

Your repeated MVP: Iona statement underlines what I feel about her at the moment. She just wins games. Even against Bant and Faeries, which many people claim that she doesn't do anything against, because they have more than one color. The statement 'A Troll would have got the job done as well' just isn't right in most occasions, at least in my expierience.

People say this a lot and never give specific examples. I'm not sure if the comment about naming blue in the Dredge mirror is a troll or not, but if you're ever in that situation, it's pretty damn hard to beat Iona if you can't ever cast Dread Return.

My experience is that Sphinx of Lost Truths is superior to Cephalid Sage because I frequently want to discard three cards after reanimating Sphinx.

Coffin Purge costs mana. Paying mana for spells is very 2002.

[SHABOOGS]

People say this a lot and never give specific examples. I'm not sure if the comment about naming blue in the Dredge mirror is a troll or not, but if you're ever in that situation, it's pretty damn hard to beat Iona if you can't ever cast Dread Return.Now that I think about it, you're absolutely correct. I should have named black instead of blue and then flashback-ed cabal therapy to get his breakthrough. Good thing he scooped after I played Iona. Live and learn, right? Hehe

[stasis]

Now that I think about it, you're absolutely correct. I should have named black instead of blue and then flashback-ed cabal therapy to get his breakthrough. Good thing he scooped after I played Iona. Live and learn, right? Hehe

Blue: keep them of bounceing here and there drawing (slowing them down)
black: keep them of Dread returning a Iona or worse.
Think either is ok, but I would pick blue. Though i dont play Iona and i play dredge only in vintage.

[chags]

On the note of vintage dredge, what do you guys think about Leyline of Sanctity in the sb? It flat out stops relic of progenitus, tormod's crypt, bojuka bog (one of the only answers to this one), Wheel of Sun and Moon (a very hard sb card to beat as well).

It doesn't stop Leyline of the Void and it certainly has to be in your opener but I'm still holding some chain of vapors in my sb as the catch all. I pulled some ancient grudges from my sb for the sanctitys . The sb I've been playing around with looks like this:

4 Leyline of Sanctity (testing)
3 Leyline of the Void (mirror, survival, madness)
3 Chain of Vapor (catch all)
1 Ancestor's Chosen (self explanatory?)
1 Terastodon (random trouble permanents like moat)
2 Ancient Grudge (still necessary for trinisphere and chalice of the void)
1 Rey of Revelation (just in case)

I run LEDless and my build looks like the following: I'm considering dropping the 3 golgari thug for a 1 of darkblast since I am running 3 ichorid but I have also considered dropping FKZ since he is less good without Sphinx of Lost Truths and in place bringing back the 4th Ichorid. Thoughts? I apologize for not tagging my deck, I'm new to the site and still learning my way around.

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel

Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

[(nameless one)]

I keep seeing Leyline of Sanctity. What is it for exactly? Counter gravehate?

[frogboy]

Leyline of Sanctity stops Relic's tap ability, but Relic's 1: nuke all yards ability does not target.

[chags]

@(nameless one) Relic of progenitus and Tormod's crypt are the most popular forms of hate I see and both come in on turn 1 so the fastest way to stop them is a turn 0 leyline, theoretically. It also is very strong against combo decks like storm and belcher. There are quite a few other cards that being unable to be targeted would be a huge boon against as well but it may not be an important sb card in those matches.

Frogboy the relic point considered would you prefer ancient grudges, chain of vapors, or leyline of sancicty? a combo of all 3 perhaps? With dredge I don't generally want to side in more then 4-5 cards against any given match up or I find the deck becomes too watered down so ideally I'd like to only depend on one of those 3 options for any given match.

Chain of vapor
Pros:
A catch all
Probably the easiest mana cost to hit in the deck
Instant speed
Cons:
Only buys a turn against most cards which seems a lot better for the LED version then this one

Leyline of Sanctity
Pros:
Halts some cards that would not normally have an answer such as bojuka bog
Protects against more then just hate (oh hi storm combo and belcher)
Comes in for free*
Cons:
if bounced it is practically uncastable
does not fully stop relic and can't stop many sb hate cards like faerie macabre, extirpate, leyline of the void

Ancient Grudge:
Pros:
can be dredged
can hit problem cards outside of hate (chalice and trinisphere)
can potentially kill two problem cards before being used up
Cons:
only hits artifacts

Perhaps Nature's Claim deserves the spots of ancient grudge but I really like that I can dredge into my grudges and don't have to slow down my plan A to get them in hand if they aren't in my opener. Anyone have thoughts on this? I've been an avid dredge player for quite some time but have taken a break from legacy so perhaps some of my analysis and judgment of cards is behind the times, if so please enlighten me.

*if you aren't putting leyline in on turn 0 it probably is never seeing play.

[GoldenCid]

1 Ancestor's Chosen

I'd test 1 Empyrial archangel instead.

[chags]

Hrm I suppose Empyrial Archangel seems pretty solid I'll test it.

[Izor]

Blue: keep them of bounceing here and there drawing (slowing them down)
black: keep them of Dread returning a Iona or worse.
Think either is ok, but I would pick blue. Though i dont play Iona and i play dredge only in vintage.

I don't agree. It should always be black. Your opponent won't be able to play DR, but he will also not be able to cast Therapy. Thts again means that he has practically no ways to get his Bridges active, so he can't build up a board. If you can Therapy away Breakthrough or Study, always name Black.

[Kunfuzed]

I thought it was interesting that in today's Ideas Unbound by Max McCall on StarCityGames.com, he says,


Dredge:
Can't win, but it's a well-known fact that Dredge sucks, and no one plays it, so no worries!
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20712_Ideas_Unbound_The_Next_Evolution_in_Legacy_Beatdown.html

Leading up to this, he doesn't even mention Dredge in his matchup analysis of Tendrils.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20528_Ideas_Unbound_The_Process_Of_Actually_Killing_Someone_On_Turn_One.html

But 9 months ago, he said,


If you are not playing Dredge in Legacy, you are doing it unbelievably wrong.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18948_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Dredge.html

What has changed? Has Survival's dominance (or some other recent metagame shift) really taken Dredge from great to horrible? Or does he just speak in ridiculous extremes?

[Rune]

sarcasm
noun - the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

[Ozymandias]

The problem with Dredge is that most people hate playing against it and hate playing it, so there's an actual gentleman's agreement not to bring Dredge out, even moreso than Storm Combo, which is no longer the subject of the agreement because people are whipping survival out all the time, which can never be the subject of a gentleman's agreement for reasons I don't understand. Maybe because it's green.

That said, I have the following hybrid LED/LEDless list:

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel

Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Terastodon
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Deep Analysis

Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

The idea here is that you don't actually need FKZ in LED dredge if you are casting 2-3 therapies and bringing out a 12/12 troll t1, and that running out a countered 1-drop discard outlet is not as miserable if you can back it up with a 0-mana discard outlet. The SB is in flux, but contains

1 Tireless Tribe
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor

at the moment.

[chags]

I understand what you're trying to do here but with only one deep analysis LED hardly seems like the smash it is in the LED version of dredge. I also don't really like the lack of FKZ AND Iona, I'd keep at least one of them. My feeling on MD fKZ is that when I tested dredge without reanimate targets I could still combo out into grave trolls but by turn 3 that did not always guarantee a win. Dredge has to win game one, that is just how it is for us, if we lose game one then we lose the match. FKZ makes it much more likely for us to take game one by allowing us to play more like a combo deck. At the very least Iona generally wins games more often than Terastodon's ability is useful imo.

[Zappa]

I was wondering what is the best course of action on this scenario.

It is game 1, and you find yourself playing the mirror. Both of you have a discard outlet online. Opponent, however, already has some bridge from below on his graveyard as well as some dredgers. You on the other hand, does not have a single bridge form below, but you just dredged and managed to hit a cabal therapy. You are running the non-LED version, and it is unknown which version he is running, if that matters.

I came across this situation before, but I wanted to know what others would do in this case. Would you risk losing your permanent discard outlet in order to nail his bridge from below, and hope to come across more dredgers? Or would you pass the turn (could get ugly), and wait until you get your own bridge? He wont have a bridge if you flashback therapy, however this leaves his side with a discard outlet while your side has none.

Would the decision be any different if there's an Ichorid present in either graveyard? Or if he has more bridges instead? I rarely come across mirror, but wanted some insights on what would be the more recommended play.

Thanks.

[GoldenCid]

I understand what you're trying to do here but with only one deep analysis LED hardly seems like the smash it is in the LED version of dredge. I also don't really like the lack of FKZ AND Iona, I'd keep at least one of them. My feeling on MD fKZ is that when I tested dredge without reanimate targets I could still combo out into grave trolls but by turn 3 that did not always guarantee a win. Dredge has to win game one, that is just how it is for us, if we lose game one then we lose the match. FKZ makes it much more likely for us to take game one by allowing us to play more like a combo deck. At the very least Iona generally wins games more often than Terastodon's ability is useful imo.

Completely agree!!!

[sadakiyo]

@Zappa : If I were you, I would first look at how many bridges my opponent have. If there is only 1 bridge in his GY, I will pass the turn.
If he has 2 or more bridges, I would look at my hand. Do I have BT or CS to go crazy next turn? If yes, I would first discard cards other than those 2 using your discard outlet, and then cabal therapy him naming BT.
He will lose 2 or more bridges and if you get lucky with cabal therapy, you can slow him down significantly.

The decision will off course be different if both already have ichorid in yard. But if you have to wait for another turn to wake ichorid up, I would still flashback cabal therapy and remove his bridge.

[GoldenCid]

Going back in my "carrieer" with dredge y noticed that 1 of the things i pray for in the the opnening hand is a land. A rainbow if possible but a land (coliseum does the thing with LED). A rianbow to play imp, tribe or therapy turn 1 or a coliseum to go off with LED and DA.

Actually i'm running this list:

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask


The list is pretty solid but i want to improve a bit more my first 7s. I want to add just 1 Tarnished citadel to the build in exchange of a Dread return as a main target. It's slightly antisynergistic with unmask but it's the only card i'm not really (just a bit) to cut in exchange of a land.

And yes...Chosen conviced me more than empyrial.

[Izor]

Going back in my "carrieer" with dredge y noticed that 1 of the things i pray for in the the opnening hand is a land. A rainbow if possible but a land (coliseum does the thing with LED). A rianbow to play imp, tribe or therapy turn 1 or a coliseum to go off with LED and DA.

Actually i'm running this list:

[List]

The list is pretty solid but i want to improve a bit more my first 7s. I want to add just 1 Tarnished citadel to the build in exchange of a Dread return as a main target. It's slightly antisynergistic with unmask but it's the only card i'm not really (just a bit) to cut in exchange of a land.

And yes...Chosen conviced me more than empyrial.

I definitely see where you're coming from.

A Land is basically a must-have, except in some rare occasions if you're on the draw and plan on taking the DDD route for the entire game. Indeed, most times that I mulligan into oblivion (and hell, that doesn't occur that often), it's because I can't find a land in each consecutive hand I draw.

Only thing is, I'm not sure whether that problem can be solved in your list. As far as I see you play a LED build that is already geared towards consistency as much as possible. You already play 2 Tribes, you already cut down Deep Analyses to 1, you only play 2 DR Targets and you even cut a Coliseum for a Paradise for rainbow mana fixing (I would personally never cut Coliseum in my life). So the question that arises is: If you still want to play more rainbow lands and feel you need more consistency, don't you think you should play LEDless? I know that you said above that you don't want this thread to be LEDless, but in my eyes, that would be the logic consequence for you.

The wish for more rainbow lands and for more consistency was the very reason the LEDless build has ever been invented. The only advantage LED builds have is their chance to win at turn 1 with LED + Draw spell + Deep Analysis + DR + DR Target. So if you still want to keep those shenanigans, I don't thing you can cut DRs, in fact I even think that 1 Deep Analysis and 2 DR targets are barely enough for it. If you manage to crack LED in resp to Breakthrough on turn 1, the only reason you play LED at all, you don't want to end up fizzling because you couldn't find an Analysis or DR for the win. If you don't manage that on turn 1, there's no reason to keep LED at all.

Please, don't get me wrong. Playing LED is absolutely fine, as is trying to get some consistency out of an LED build. But I think that if you still want more consistency than your current build provides, you should maybe try LEDless instead.

EDIT: Apart from proposing LEDless to you. If you want to keep this build but still want to play one more rainbow land, I would cut Ichorid, not DR. As I said, with only 1 DA you're not guaranteed to dredge into at least one copy of DR on turn 1, so I think it's essential. Ichorid is only helpful outside of turn 1, where LED builds are strictly worse that LEDless anyway. So I think the 4th Ichorid would be my first cut.
By the way, I would also change your Paradise to another Tarnished. Paradise is awful without Bloodghast...

And of course Chosen is better than Archangel.

[GoldenCid]

Izor, thank you so much for your dedicated answer. I'll try to give you a similar one.
What i mean is that at least 1 or 2 times in tournaments i have an incredible hand screwed by the lack of a land. This makes me feel upset but taking a mulligan oftenly solves the situation. I was playing with these thoughts in my head all day and arrived to the reconsideration of my 13rd land proposition. 12 is good if you run LED (i used to run even 11 lands in the old metagame!). 12 is the fifth part of 60. What means that of 5 cards 1 is a land. This is really good for this deck. In addition LED "is like a land itself". When i have LED in the opening together to some good cards (dredgers, ichorid, imp and / or DA) and no lands i allow myself to take a couple of turns to hit a land and quickly going off. This is due to the power of LED. So, what i mentioned before (about running 13 lands and bla bla) was just a comment on how, if i need, i'd chage the deck...if you think about it is just 1 card. All together, if you shuffle properly (this azarous part f the game could destroy you), much times i saw 2-4 lands sticked in the middle of the deck, you shouldn't have big problems. However, i'll say that LED version demands a "good eye" for the pilot for keeping the 7 first cards which does not occur (so often) with LEDless version. But this after 1000s of games is not so relevant.

[frogboy]

12 is the fifth part of 60. What means that of 5 cards 1 is a land. This is really good for this deck.

I might make a longer post about this later, but this isn't really how math works. What you should be interested in is hypergeometric distribution, which gives you the probability of having a land in an opening hand given however many lands you run. You can google for a site with a calculator for it.

[mossivo1986]

I might make a longer post about this later, but this isn't really how math works. What you should be interested in is hypergeometric distribution, which gives you the probability of having a land in an opening hand given however many lands you run. You can google for a site with a calculator for it.

Max i'd really like to see your led ichorid list. Im currently play ledless, but its costing me games due to opponents oversiding. Im going to switch archtypes for a while; but I want to sneak an led list in one of the upcomming tourneys.

[lorddotm]

Max i'd really like to see your led ichorid list. Im currently play ledless, but its costing me games due to opponents oversiding. Im going to switch archtypes for a while; but I want to sneak an led list in one of the upcomming tourneys.

How does LED solve this issue?

[Izor]

I might make a longer post about this later, but this isn't really how math works. What you should be interested in is hypergeometric distribution, which gives you the probability of having a land in an opening hand given however many lands you run. You can google for a site with a calculator for it.

Without wanting to foreclose anything you might want to say in your longer post:

Probability of having at least one Land in your opener running X lands, in case someone wants to know the maths:

X=8: 62,9%
X=9: 67,3%
X=10: 71,1%
X=11: 74.5%
X=12: 77,4%
X=13: 80,0%
X=14: 82,4%
X=15: 84,4%

I inculded the fairly wide range of 8-15 in case some want to know the probability for all lands (12-15), or only rainbow lands (8-11).


How does LED solve this issue?

Hmm, this is something I'm also interested in. In can only attest that LEDless builds are usually better when it comes to fighting hate, because they have more rainbow lands and can cast Ancient Grudge and other anti hate cards more easily. Except of course you kill your opponent on turn 1 on the play with LED and they never get the chance to play Crypt, but that doesn't happen too often. And I might have missed something, But doesn't frogboy play LEDless after all?

[bakofried]

I would be interested in seeing Max's latest LEDless build, if we're asking for quick peeks. I've combed the last 4-5 pages and can't seem to find it.

[Ozymandias]

I really can't believe there's going to be that much change, given how much of the deck is an absolute lock. The sideboard should change from tourney to tourney though, based on meta calls.

[GoldenCid]

We don't need math just experience!!

[Joe_C]

The only thing LED offers the deck is to win before your opponent can drop hate. It uses unmask and out of the sb chain of vapor is more effective with led since you can bounce and just win that turn before they can replay the hate. In the long game, ledless has more options, but letting the game go too long has it's issues as well.

[Sunsatzu]

I would be interested in seeing Max's latest LEDless build, if we're asking for quick peeks. I've combed the last 4-5 pages and can't seem to find it.

if youre talking about Max Mccall, he played the following to 1st place on 9/18 ~30 people, quite competitive (the last time before he switched to TES so far as i know)

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcoboeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

Spells
1 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
4 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair

[SHABOOGS]

The only thing LED offers the deck is to win before your opponent can drop hate. It uses unmask and out of the sb chain of vapor is more effective with led since you can bounce and just win that turn before they can replay the hate. In the long game, ledless has more options, but letting the game go too long has it's issues as well.During game 2, dredge pilots are usually on the draw, which makes it difficult to go that route (win before they can drop hate) since most opponents aggressively mulligan for hate. And winning before they can replay the hate can also be accomplished with LEDless lists.

[CabalTherapy]

Maybe some other reason for playing LED/LEDless build is the meta.
-If your meta is very combo-based, I would choose LED, because it is faster and has Unmask in the board.
You shouldn't be afraid of Wastelands or artifact GY-hate.
-If your meta is more aggro-based, I would clearly take the LEDless build, because of it's 15 lands and the consistence.
More artifact-GY-hate should be handled with Claim/Grudge, which can be played in this build easier.

[frogboy]

It's not like there's some rule that says that Unmask and Lion's Eye Diamond go hand in hand; they're not giggling teenagers who have just started making out and NOW IT'S TRUE LOVE AND WE MUST BE TOGETHER ALWAYS.

Mostly I think Unmask kinda sucks because you don't have a ton of black cards to spare. I'd rather have Brainstorm or something else to try and kill them on turn two.

[Ozymandias]

If I was going to run LED dredge again, I would run either tireless tribe or careful study in the Unmask slots so I have either more consistency or more mini broken turn 1s where you can go LED, draw spell, sac in response, dredge some, Deep Analysis, dredge some more.

Something like this:
//Mana
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
//Dudes
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Terastodon
//Non-mana Non-dudes
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge From Below
//Sideboard
1 Tarnished Citadel
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation.

[lorddotm]

If I was going to run LED dredge again, I would run either tireless tribe or careful study in the Unmask slots so I have either more consistency or more mini broken turn 1s where you can go LED, draw spell, sac in response, dredge some, Deep Analysis, dredge some more.

Something like this:
//Mana
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
//Dudes
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Terastodon
//Non-mana Non-dudes
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge From Below
//Sideboard
1 Tarnished Citadel
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation.

Less than 11 Dredgers seems wrong. Plus, maindeck Dread Return targets don't seem that good.

[Izor]

We don't need math just experience!!

Of course expierience is much more important. But still maths is very useful and a good point to start from, especially when it comes to the amount of land a deck needs in order to optimize the draws.


It's not like there's some rule that says that Unmask and Lion's Eye Diamond go hand in hand; they're not giggling teenagers who have just started making out and NOW IT'S TRUE LOVE AND WE MUST BE TOGETHER ALWAYS.

Mostly I think Unmask kinda sucks because you don't have a ton of black cards to spare. I'd rather have Brainstorm or something else to try and kill them on turn two.

This.

LEDless could run Unmask just as well, but its superior mana base allows it to play better cards in those slots. So I don't think that Unmask can ever be an argument for LED. LED lists just need to hit the hate with Unmask, as they'll not get the mana for Ancient Grudge anyway. And that costs a black spell. I couldn't think of a spell I would ever want to pitch. So for me, Unmask has always been a bad card. But I know that other people made other expieriences with it.


-If your meta is very combo-based, I would choose LED, because it is faster and has Unmask in the board.
You shouldn't be afraid of Wastelands or artifact GY-hate.
-If your meta is more aggro-based, I would clearly take the LEDless build, because of it's 15 lands and the consistence.

This sounds reasonable.
At least if you want to rely on your luck to net the first turn kill with LED against combo. Because LEDless wins on turn 2 or later just as often as LED.


Less than 11 Dredgers seems wrong. Plus, maindeck Dread Return targets don't seem that good.

Less than 11 Dredgers is subpar, but the more explosive and less consistent LED builds will often have to take that risk. Also, running LED and Deep Analysis doesn't make much sense without DR targets. In LEDless you don't need them, in LED you do.

[mossivo1986]

How does LED solve this issue?

I feel like LED in my meta would be much stronger of a choice as your broken factor is much better against the mass forms of bad hate. Maybe i'm wrong. I don't know, but only testing will show?

[marclark]

I feel like LED in my meta would be much stronger of a choice as your broken factor is much better against the mass forms of bad hate. Maybe i'm wrong. I don't know, but only testing will show?

It really does come down to testing. LED and unLEDed players tend to argue a lot about which is better/faster/stronger in a specific meta but to be very honest the biggest factor is which version you are more comfortable playing. I personally prefer LED as well, don't ask me why because I just do, but occasionally play LEDless as well. With any version of Ichorid you simply have to get used to the way the deck plays out against different strategies (mostly figuring out how to mull correctly) and learn how to sideboard effectively. I would suggest reading this thread's primer and then reading it again, as it really is one of the best primers for a deck available (even if its a little old, this deck doesn't change all that much)

[Muradin]

So with the recent banning of Survival of the Fittest I feel that dredge must be very well positioned in the old / new metagame. Countertop will take its strong position in the metagame again and Storm combo will be less prevalent. Furthermore a lot of hate, such as Peacekeeper, Faerie Macabre or Extirpate will become less comon.

I am currently running a standard list with 15 lands, 0 DR targets, 12 Dredgers, 3 Ichorid. While I am happy with the maindeck, my sideboard is what I am rather concerned about.

Is Ancient Grudge really the best option here? It actually doesnt seem to be very strong for me. It has the known advantage of not having to be in your opener in order to be useful, however I don't feel its effective enough. There is a lot of luck in dredging into one and still having colored mana sources available to force your opponent to use his Crypt / Relic in response to it. In the process you lose quite some valuable resources most of the time.

My testing has shown, that against most agressive decks in the format (zoo, folks, goblins) it is quite improbable to come back after having been crypted without resolving a draw spell afterwards. Thus I've been retesting Pithing needle, which has the advantage of being castable with Coliseum as well and shutting down hate preemptively, before they can take away a good piece of our yard. (formerly could be set to Survival as well). I am yet unsure about it, as both cards have their well known and often discussed merits and disadvantages and thus would like to ask some of the more experienced Ichorid pilots on here for advice.

I've played Ichorid in roughly 15-20 tournaments myself and thus know what I am doing with this deck most of the time, but this is an issue I can't come to a satisfying conclusion myself.

[Zörg]

Hello!

I am a Goblin player from sweden who feels it would be fun to try on a different kind of legacy deck, and now this spring a couple of mates and I are going to prox ourselves some decks. Therefore i think i am going to try Ichorid and if it is fun, possibly buy the real deal. I have snooped around a bit and seen a couple of decks.

I was wondering if a kind couple of souls could drop their current decklists with and without LED and describe the differences?

[Sunsatzu]

Hello!

I am a Goblin player from sweden who feels it would be fun to try on a different kind of legacy deck, and now this spring a couple of mates and I are going to prox ourselves some decks. Therefore i think i am going to try Ichorid and if it is fun, possibly buy the real deal. I have snooped around a bit and seen a couple of decks.

I was wondering if a kind couple of souls could drop their current decklists with and without LED and describe the differences?

i run

4 tireless tribe
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
3 ichorid
1 sphinx of lost truths
1 flame kin zealot

4 bridge from below
4 breakthrough
3 dread return
3 careful study
3 cabal therapy

4 city of brass
4 cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
3 tarnished citadel

4 chain of vapor
4 ancient grudge
3 ray of revelation
1 cabal therapy
1 ichorid
1 ancestor's chosen
1 felidar sovereign (or terastodon/woodfall primus/angel of despair/realm razor)

LED main would be imo (although i do not care for LED)

+4 LED
+2 deep analysis
+1 cabal therapy
+1 sphinx of lost truths

-4 tireless tribe
-1 careful study
-3 tarnished citadel

main differences are speed and resilience. LED 'can' win turn 1, but very weak to disruption, at that point u might as well play charbelchar

[DarkJester]

@Zörg
Well, I tried both lists, with and without Lion's Eye Diamond and have to say (although it makes me a little bit sad because of the LED-coolness-factor), that the LEDless-Version is better from my point of view. You should not care about game1 when you play Ichorid, because you have a very high winpercentage with both archetypes. You should better care about games 2 or eventually 3, and, like Sunsatzu wrote, in these games the LEDless Ichorid showes it's full strength. Especially the Manabase and the four additional permanent-discard-outlets (Tireless Tribes) help massively to handle opponents gravehate.
To the lists above: I would prefer not to play Dread Return-Targets Main in the LEDless-list, because I think you simply don't need them.
So, my 50cents: - FKZ, - Sphinx, -1Dread Return, +1 Ichorid, +1 Therapy(they are perfect), +1Study
If you choose to play with LED (again: you shouldn't): - 3tarnished, -1city, -4tribes, -3study,-Sphinx, + 4LED, +2 Deep Anal, +1 Eternal Witness, +1 Ichorid, +1 Therapy , +3 Unmask (you may choose to play Careful Study in the Unmask-slots).

[GoldenCid]

i +4 LED
+2 deep analysis
+1 cabal therapy
+1 sphinx of lost truths

-4 tireless tribe
-1 careful study
-3 tarnished citadel

main differences are speed and resilience. LED 'can' win turn 1, but very weak to disruption, at that point u might as well play charbelchar

Although i'm glad to see you run led, try to keep 1-2 Tribes.

[DarkJester]

Yeah, it would be great to find a well chosen slot for 2 Tribes in the LED-Version, but which should it be? And a 12th land is needed I think... I mean, the core is clear:
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Lions Eye Diamond
2 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
12 lands (4 coliseum, 8 rainbow)
4 bridge from below
3 golgari thug (eventually a 4th?)
4 Ichorid
2 Dread Return-Targets (I prefer FKZ and Witness)
3 Dread Return

In this list would be 2 free slots, should they be filled with tireless tribes? Is it good to cut the 4th Ichorid eventually?

[GoldenCid]

In this list would be 2 free slots, should they be filled with tireless tribes? Is it good to cut the 4th Ichorid eventually?

Never. We need all our manaless effects. If you wish i can facilitate my deck list for inspiration:



4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Deep Analysis
4 Narcomoeba
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Unmask
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 3 Firestorm (here i'd like to run 2 Sadistic hypnotis + anything else but i'm noyt completely convinced)

[SHABOOGS]

How's that build working out for you so far, GoldenCid? It doesn't look too consistent on paper since you only have 8 draw effects (4BT, 3CC, 1DA). And if you're running a playset of LED, I think 2 DA would be better.

[GoldenCid]

How's that build working out for you so far, GoldenCid? It doesn't look too consistent on paper since you only have 8 draw effects (4BT, 3CC, 1DA). And if you're running a playset of LED, I think 2 DA would be better.

First of all i run 4 CC.
At first i run 2 DA but i wanted to run 2 Tribes...so.

Edit: In real life i demands skills to choice the opoening hand. It's solid.

[DarkJester]

But my experience with the Ichorid-builds showed me that your opening-hands, especially postboard, are more solid and consistent in the ledlless version. I do not often have the problem to take a mulligan because there is no land in my opening seven (I know that you are able to keep some hands without land, but I think you should do this only preboard), and sometimes (more often than most people think) its just incredible to hardcast a narco or a thug...or even (very rare) a stinkweed imp. In Postboard-matches I don't want to have a situation in which my inconsistent deck forces me to mulligan more than once, because I have to fight the hate and mulligan for the right antihate.
I love LED-Dredge, but in my tournament environment most people know how to play against Ichorid, and you cannot rely on their mistakes anymore. So it is better for me to play a more consistent list.
By the way, Cid, just a question: why do you play undiscovered paradise?

[GoldenCid]

But my experience with the Ichorid-builds showed me that your opening-hands, especially postboard, are more solid and consistent in the ledlless version. I do not often have the problem to take a mulligan because there is no land in my opening seven (I know that you are able to keep some hands without land, but I think you should do this only preboard), and sometimes (more often than most people think) its just incredible to hardcast a narco or a thug...or even (very rare) a stinkweed imp. In Postboard-matches I don't want to have a situation in which my inconsistent deck forces me to mulligan more than once, because I have to fight the hate and mulligan for the right antihate.
I love LED-Dredge, but in my tournament environment most people know how to play against Ichorid, and you cannot rely on their mistakes anymore. So it is better for me to play a more consistent list.
By the way, Cid, just a question: why do you play undiscovered paradise?


In the second match the only thing that we really want to see in the opening hand is a land. If there is no side cards the mull will depend on the rest cards of your hand. Maybe you took a combo hand and you just await for what you oponent do. If they drop hate, you just draw until you can force him to crack his stuff (relic, crypt) or simply bounce / destroy (whatever) the hate and go off. That's why i still run unmask. You can do something without mana, delay your opo and draw for the land. Off course, this need skills.

On paradise. With the inclusion of tribe, ancient grudge and others, anycolor mana is vital. With this cards and no careful study or blue spells cephalid coliseum was a bit unconfortable depending on the opening 7. So i found Undiscovered Paradise a good option to get my 9th rainbow land. The drawback it has almost never bothers me.

[DarkJester]

Did you never had a situation in which you make your slowrolling-plan and your opponent just drops his goyfclock and you can simply nothing do against it? The worst imagination I have when playing dredge is that my opponent has more pressure on the board than me, and I can just hope to interact when I draw a land. You have only to interact when they drop hate, that's my point of view.Dredge simply needs to play the role of the agressor, if this role is lost, Ichorid loses. Slowrolling is a good plan postboard, but I think in this case a solid opening seven with outlet, dredger and land is the best opening hand you can keep (maybe with some antihatestuff). And this hand is easier to get with the LEDless-List.But it's nice to hear that you are successful with your LED-List, maybe it's called skill.
Why don't you play tarnished citadel instead of the paradise?

[lotriderm]

I'm playing the LEDless, no main DR target version with 15 lands. In order for me to get that last land in, I had to cut one slot, which was -1 Careful Study. I was wondering what is other people's opinion for the extra slot. The 3 choices for me was either: Careful Study, Ichord, or DR. Before the cut, I had 4 CS, 4 ichorid, 3 DR.

[Anusien]

I don't see the need for 3 Dread Returns game1. It's nice to have I guess?

[GoldenCid]

Why don't you play tarnished citadel instead of the paradise?

In addition of what i said above Undiscovered is does not deals damage. Tarnished is a lightning bolt. Yeah we are a combo deck but sometimes thing doesn't work as well as one wants. I prefer a drawback instead of damage.

[Izor]

I'm playing the LEDless, no main DR target version with 15 lands. In order for me to get that last land in, I had to cut one slot, which was -1 Careful Study. I was wondering what is other people's opinion for the extra slot. The 3 choices for me was either: Careful Study, Ichord, or DR. Before the cut, I had 4 CS, 4 ichorid, 3 DR.

If you run DR targets main, you should keep the 3 DR. If not, 2 is fine.

And this deck works just as well with only 3 Ichorids. I know that it's the card that formerly gave the deck it's name, but still. It's a card you don't want to have in your opener and it happens very often that you have to feed one Ichorid to the other if running 4. 3 is enough for me.

I wouldn't cut CS if I can keep it. It's the weakest draw spell and the weakest discard outlet, that's true. But it's Both. And that makes it awesome. Aditionally, It finds anti hate post board.

And personally, I'd rather give my opponent a free bolt than not being able to cast my spells or activate Coliseum at turn 2. So for me, definitely Citadel >> Paradise.

[Anusien]

I personally think 4 Ichorids is wrong because there are lots of matchups where I want to see one as soon as possible to put the pressure on. I board one out sometimes in slow matchups.

[SHABOOGS]

First of all i run 4 CC.
At first i run 2 DA but i wanted to run 2 Tribes...so.

Edit: In real life i demands skills to choice the opoening hand. It's solid.

I based my post on the list you posted above (which only has 3 CC). Still, 9 draw effects seem inconsistent on paper compared to traditional LED/LEDless builds coz LED build run 10-14 draw effects and LEDless builds run 11-12 draw effects. I've tested both LED and LEDless and based on my experience, LED doesn't improve any post board games (except for storm) compared to LEDless builds. I like playing the LED lists because it is very explosive but during post board games where hate is a factor, I don't think being explosive at the cost of consistency is an advantage.

I'd only run Undiscovered Paradise over Tarnished Citadel if I'm running Bloodghasts. For the most part, the 3 damage from Citadel is irrelevant if you're winning on the 2nd or 3rd turn due to a draw effect which includes CC.

[DarkJester]

I based my post on the list you posted above (which only has 3 CC). Still, 9 draw effects seem inconsistent on paper compared to traditional LED/LEDless builds coz LED build run 10-14 draw effects and LEDless builds run 11-12 draw effects. I've tested both LED and LEDless and based on my experience, LED doesn't improve any post board games (except for storm) compared to LEDless builds. I like playing the LED lists because it is very explosive but during post board games where hate is a factor, I don't think being explosive at the cost of consistency is an advantage.

I'd only run Undiscovered Paradise over Tarnished Citadel if I'm running Bloodghasts. For the most part, the 3 damage from Citadel is irrelevant if you're winning on the 2nd or 3rd turn due to a draw effect which includes CC.

I totally agree. So lets try another question. I was wondering how I should prepare my sideboard for an unknown meta. At the moment it's kinda this:
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Nature's Claim (a 5th out against Leyline)
1 Darkblast (a 5th out against Jailer...I am afraid of this guy)
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return ( if I board in a DR-Target, I run only 2DR Main)
2 Ray of Revelation (does it's job against enchantress)
1 Terastodon (see Ray of Revelation)
1 Ancenstors Chosen

I tried different kinds of SB's before, including Firestorms, Unmask, Leyline and so on but they never satisfied me cause I had to board to many cards.
I run a 15Land-LEDless version, with 4Ichorid, 11Dredgers, 4 Study, 4 Therapy, no DR-Targets Main... thanks for your help.

[GoldenCid]

I based my post on the list you posted above (which only has 3 CC). Still, 9 draw effects seem inconsistent on paper compared to traditional LED/LEDless builds coz LED build run 10-14 draw effects and LEDless builds run 11-12 draw effects. I've tested both LED and LEDless and based on my experience, LED doesn't improve any post board games (except for storm) compared to LEDless builds. I like playing the LED lists because it is very explosive but during post board games where hate is a factor, I don't think being explosive at the cost of consistency is an advantage.

I'd only run Undiscovered Paradise over Tarnished Citadel if I'm running Bloodghasts. For the most part, the 3 damage from Citadel is irrelevant if you're winning on the 2nd or 3rd turn due to a draw effect which includes CC.


If LED bothers you post board you have two options: Side it out or play LEDless. Remember that it run Eternal witness which duplicates any of my draw spells / CC.

@DarkJester: Did you try sadistic hypnotist?

[Anusien]

4 Chain of Vapor, 4 Ancient Grudge and 2 Ray of Revelation is a ridiculous overlap.

[Sunsatzu]

the only overlap is Ray and Chain for Leyline, usually againt goblins, lands, loam

AG or Chain for Zoo, depending on their hate

AG for Merfolk, hitting Vial is just as good

Ray for Enchantress, obvious, but u can play Chain as well if u wish

and for those who want a basic sb guide for post-survival (using my main list from last page)

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Nature's Claim
2 Unmask
1 Ichorid
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Realm Razer

Zoo/Goblins: +4 Chain of Vapor, +1 Nature's Claim, +1 Ichorid, +1 Ancestor's Chosen
-4 Breakthrough, -2 Cabal Therapy, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Merfolk/CounterTop: +4 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ichorid, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Ancestor's Chosen
-4 Breakthrough, -1 Sphinx of Lost Truth, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot, -1 Dread Return

Tendrils/Charbelchar: +2 Unmask, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Ancestor's Chosen
-2 Tireless Tribe, -2 Ichorid

Lands/Enchantress: +4 Chain of Vapor, +1 Nature's Claim, +1 Realm Razer
-2 Ichorid, -2 Tireless Tribe, -2 Cabal Therapy

[SHABOOGS]

If LED bothers you post board you have two options: Side it out or play LEDless. Remember that it run Eternal witness which duplicates any of my draw spells / CC.

@DarkJester: Did you try sadistic hypnotist?

I did try boarding 4LED and 2DA post board when I was testing the LED build but the loss of a discard outlet made it harder to work around relic of progenitus. And having 8-9 gold lands to cast my anti hate cards also became a huge factor during post board games. Most of the times I just lost coz I mulliganed to oblivion during post board games. That's why I currently play LEDless since it is more stable during post board games based on my experience at least. If I had the sideboard space tho, I'd definitely play a LED list preboard (just because it's fun to play with broken cards) and LEDless list postboard. But that would take up 6 slots (4 Tribe and 2 Citadel) which I currently can't squeeze in so I just play LEDless straight up.

[Anusien]

You are bringing in 5 answers to hate in half your matches. That's more cards than the opponent is probably bringing in.

[Izor]

You are bringing in 5 answers to hate in half your matches. That's more cards than the opponent is probably bringing in.

I don't think that 5 is too much. Why shouldn't you board 5 cards that hit artifacts against Goblins? You can hit their Vial as well as their grave hate. And against Enchantress 4 Chains plus some Rays aren't too bad to have either, are they?

Nonetheless the sideboard is still something I'm not too sure about. I for example still don't know if Firestorm is worth running. The card is insane, but it mostly forces me to board out at least 7 cards (Firestorms plus anti grave hate).

[frogboy]

Firestorm is pretty much just an upgrade over Careful Study if your opponent is trying to beat down.

[Nidd]

Wait, since when has Dredge started to disrupt it's opponents gameplan (save Therapy) instead of advancing it's own? What has happened to this deck?

Seriously, bringing in NC to destroy Vials sounds horrible.

[frogboy]

Seriously, bringing in NC to destroy Vials sounds horrible.

I mean. If you have a Claim and they don't have a Crypt and you have spare mana, killing a Vial is fine. He's clearly not like 'SHIT HE'S GOT AETHER VIALS BETTER LOAD UP ON NATURE'S CLAIM.'

I wouldn't bring Claim in against Goblins in the dark but it's not like his point is any less valid when applied to Grudge.

[Digital Devil]

I'm sorry to bring in an additional question and divert your attention from the main issue. Seeing here there's no Lands/Stax/Reanimator, and Survival is gone, what could replace 1x Angel of Despair in my sideboard? I feel like it's useless now, and since I find it to be better than Terastodon/Primus in my meta, I simply can't decide what to play.

4x Nature's Claim
4x Ancient Grudge
3x Darkblast (AWESOME with all Goblins/Elves/Dredge I have to play against)
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x -Empty Slot-

P.S. - Important notes on my mainboard: 14x Lands, 4x Ichorid, 3x Dread Return, 3x Careful Study and maindeck Iona.

[SHABOOGS]

I'm sorry to bring in an additional question and divert your attention from the main issue. Seeing here there's no Lands/Stax/Reanimator, and Survival is gone, what could replace 1x Angel of Despair in my sideboard? I feel like it's useless now, and since I find it to be better than Terastodon/Primus in my meta, I simply can't decide what to play.

4x Nature's Claim
4x Ancient Grudge
3x Darkblast (AWESOME with all Goblins/Elves/Dredge I have to play against)
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x -Empty Slot-

P.S. - Important notes on my mainboard: 14x Lands, 4x Ichorid, 3x Dread Return, 3x Careful Study and maindeck Iona.

My 0.02, keep AoD just in case you run across something you need to nuke. I myself have had Terastodon/Primus in my 75 for the longest time and I still keep in there eventhough I seldom use it coz I want to have an answer when the situation does call for it. But if you feel comfortable with dropping it, I'd suggest FKZ in the slot so you have another option for faster decks and the mirror.

[DarthVicious]

I did some thread searching to see if anyone else has tested a couple cards I've been fishing with, and I didn't see any responses to either.


Nether Shadow
Magus of the Bazaar


I've been running the shadow in place of Ichorid and Magus in place of tribes and so far they've both been good for me. It's 12 lands, LEDless.

Magus I can explain easily. Every time I tested tribes, I wanted more draw effects. Every time I ran DA I wanted more discard. Magus is like activating a coliseum every turn.

The shadow comes back every turn for free. I've found that if I need to return Ichorid several turns in a row, especially in multiples, I run out of creatures to exile. That's all. Doesn't come up very often, I know, and Ichorid attacks for three as opposed to one. I'd still rather have the shadow though, just a preference I guess.

[Muradin]

Magus of the Bazaar is not good, because it costs U1, and that is 1 too much. Furthermore it will get killed before it does anything most of the time, so I have no clue how you could have found him good in testing.

Nether Shadow is just worse than Ichorid. Don't play it.

[DarkJester]

I did some thread searching to see if anyone else has tested a couple cards I've been fishing with, and I didn't see any responses to either.


Nether Shadow
Magus of the Bazaar


I've been running the shadow in place of Ichorid and Magus in place of tribes and so far they've both been good for me. It's 12 lands, LEDless.

Magus I can explain easily. Every time I tested tribes, I wanted more draw effects. Every time I ran DA I wanted more discard. Magus is like activating a coliseum every turn.

The shadow comes back every turn for free. I've found that if I need to return Ichorid several turns in a row, especially in multiples, I run out of creatures to exile. That's all. Doesn't come up very often, I know, and Ichorid attacks for three as opposed to one. I'd still rather have the shadow though, just a preference I guess.

Nether Shadow is just a 1/1 creature that does not die every turn automatically and does not help to increase your zombie army all by himself. It happens not too often that you run out of ichorid-fodder... he's definitely the better option for this slot.
Even if you should be able to activate the Magus once it seems a kind of too slow for my point of view. For example, you drop him on turn 2 and (if he gets not killed by opponent) he loses his sickness on turn 3... thats a turn too late I think, especially in Legacy. The Magus Choice reminds me of the old Extended Dredge archetypes...

[(nameless one)]

Magus of the Bazaar is better fit in U/G Survival than in dredge.

[DarthVicious]

Nether Shadow is just a 1/1 creature that does not die every turn automatically and does not help to increase your zombie army all by himself. It happens not too often that you run out of ichorid-fodder... he's definitely the better option for this slot.
Even if you should be able to activate the Magus once it seems a kind of too slow for my point of view. For example, you drop him on turn 2 and (if he gets not killed by opponent) he loses his sickness on turn 3... thats a turn too late I think, especially in Legacy. The Magus Choice reminds me of the old Extended Dredge archetypes...

True, the shadow never kills itself, I did realize that. The Magus having summoning sickness just slows me down sometimes, but one or two activations is all you need. I always wanted another draw and discard effect. Magus solved that. Hmmm... maybe I'll be happy with Careful Study.


Magus of the Bazaar is not good. I have no clue how you could have found him good in testing.

Nether Shadow is just worse than Ichorid. Don't play it.


I did mention the fact that I was goldfishing with those cards.

[Anusien]

I mean. If you have a Claim and they don't have a Crypt and you have spare mana, killing a Vial is fine. He's clearly not like 'SHIT HE'S GOT AETHER VIALS BETTER LOAD UP ON NATURE'S CLAIM.'

I wouldn't bring Claim in against Goblins in the dark but it's not like his point is any less valid when applied to Grudge.
I have liked having redundant Grudges when my opponent has Jitte, but if I'm 100% sure he doesn't have Relics and Crypts, I'm going back to my game 1 configuration.

Folks need to remember that there's a heavy cost for the deck's consistency to bring in a single sideboard card. There isn't dead weight in the maindeck. Every single card coming out hurts.

[DarkJester]

True, the shadow never kills itself, I did realize that. The Magus having summoning sickness just slows me down sometimes, but one or two activations is all you need. I always wanted another draw and discard effect. Magus solved that. Hmmm... maybe I'll be happy with Careful Study.




I did mention the fact that I was goldfishing with those cards.

Yeah, the Careful Study is awesome... in a LEDless List, which is the better list from my point of view, your turn 1 drops should be imp or tribe (in rare situations a blind therapy or nothing for the DDD-plan), and your second-turn- play should be a draw spell for going off (eventually and at it's best with a 2nd land and therapy-backup), hopefully breakthrough... but a study does it's work too. You just don't want to have the magus.

You playtested (or goldfished) LEDless? You simply don't need DA in this build, it's crap without LED. In Ledless-Dredge you need exactly these Draw-Effects: 4 Breakthrough, 3-4 Study, 4 Coliseum ( I would prefer four of each)

[Gambit]

So I haven't read the whole thread, I play dredge in vintage sometimes and have a legacy tournament coming up, so I just put together an LED-less list. My question is: Why isn't brainstorm played? 1 mana for 3 dredges at instant speed seems pretty good.

[Joe_C]

So I haven't read the whole thread, I play dredge in vintage sometimes and have a legacy tournament coming up, so I just put together an LED-less list. My question is: Why isn't brainstorm played? 1 mana for 3 dredges at instant speed seems pretty good.

It is functional as a dredge 3 times card, but it does not put the dredge cards back in your grave afterwards. The instant speed side is nice, but not pitching the cards after dredging is a fair drawback.

[Sunsatzu]

So I haven't read the whole thread, I play dredge in vintage sometimes and have a legacy tournament coming up, so I just put together an LED-less list. My question is: Why isn't brainstorm played? 1 mana for 3 dredges at instant speed seems pretty good.

there are lists using Brainstorm, here's a link

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=704035

also, on Magus of the Bazaar, Tolarian Winds is a strict upgrade imho, im guessing any time u actually activate Magus, you never need to more than once

[SHABOOGS]

also, on Magus of the Bazaar, Tolarian Winds is a strict upgrade imho, im guessing any time u actually activate Magus, you never need to more than onceThose cards cost 2cc, which dredge can't consistently cast compared to the usual draw effects (BT, CS, and CC). Magus is a turn 3 draw effect that is vulnerable to removal which is also a turn slower than the other draw effects in the traditional build.

[DarthVicious]

Yeah, the Careful Study is awesome... in a LEDless List, which is the better list from my point of view, your turn 1 drops should be imp or tribe (in rare situations a blind therapy or nothing for the DDD-plan), and your second-turn- play should be a draw spell for going off (eventually and at it's best with a 2nd land and therapy-backup), hopefully breakthrough... but a study does it's work too. You just don't want to have the magus.

You playtested (or goldfished) LEDless? You simply don't need DA in this build, it's crap without LED. In Ledless-Dredge you need exactly these Draw-Effects: 4 Breakthrough, 3-4 Study, 4 Coliseum ( I would prefer four of each)

4 troll, stinkweed, thug, pimp, breakthrough, study, therapy, city, mine, coliseum, moeba, shadow, bridge
3 tribe, Dreturn
1 iona, fkz

I added 4 study after I noticed my deck only had 56 cards in it. Im prolly missing a previously extirpated card, but well see. Magus became tribes due to studies. I've been goldfishing, almost strictly. Played a few games against Aeon bridge, but I refuse to play against my brothers deck with MD leylines. So, I goldfish.

I know the list looks horrible. I posted it from my phone this morning before I left for work

[DarkJester]

4 troll, stinkweed, thug, pimp, breakthrough, study, therapy, city, mine, coliseum, moeba, shadow, bridge
3 tribe, Dreturn
1 iona, fkz

I added 4 study after I noticed my deck only had 56 cards in it. Im prolly missing a previously extirpated card, but well see. Magus became tribes due to studies. I've been goldfishing, almost strictly. Played a few games against Aeon bridge, but I refuse to play against my brothers deck with MD leylines. So, I goldfish.

I know the list looks horrible. I posted it from my phone this morning before I left for work

If your brother plays 4 leyline, you should experience in dealing with hate....its better than goldfishing i think....try sideboard-tech like natures claim or ray of revelation against it (or chain of vapor) and you'll see what seems the best choice for you. This will show you also which cards you should cut after boarding for your brought- in antihate. A good experience I think. And I would alter your ManaBase and cut the MainDeck DR-Targets.

[DarthVicious]

For now my board just has 4 chain, 4 firestorm, 3 grudge and 4 needle. I could make the grudges become ray easily tho.

I have slim to none experience playing the deck, so I want to get used to going off with it before I play against free turn 0 hate. Getting blown out when you're learning a deck just turns you off to it.

[Izor]

Wait, since when has Dredge started to disrupt it's opponents gameplan (save Therapy) instead of advancing it's own? What has happened to this deck?

Seriously, bringing in NC to destroy Vials sounds horrible.

Answer:
I mean. If you have a Claim and they don't have a Crypt and you have spare mana, killing a Vial is fine. He's clearly not like 'SHIT HE'S GOT AETHER VIALS BETTER LOAD UP ON NATURE'S CLAIM.'

I wouldn't bring Claim in against Goblins in the dark but it's not like his point is any less valid when applied to Grudge.


I have liked having redundant Grudges when my opponent has Jitte, but if I'm 100% sure he doesn't have Relics and Crypts, I'm going back to my game 1 configuration.

Folks need to remember that there's a heavy cost for the deck's consistency to bring in a single sideboard card. There isn't dead weight in the maindeck. Every single card coming out hurts.

It's possible that I didn't express my thoughts well. I absolutely agree with what I quoted above.

If I know that my opponent won't bring in any graveyard hate post board, I will never board Claims or anything only to disrupt their game plan. I only meant to say that IF I expect there to be hate, I will comfortably board in at least 4 cards against it, especially if I know that my anti hate won't be dead even if they don't draw, or in the end don't have the hate. Hitting Vial, Jitte and stuff isn't what I plan to do by boarding, but I won't complain if I can blow them up with redundant anti hate.

[Sunsatzu]

in games 2-3, if im on the play, unless im expecting Leyline or Crypt, i will keep the main close to what it usually is as the deck can always win before the opponent activates Relic or plays Teeg

[DarthVicious]

Iona is pretty much gravy, I would have no problem cutting her from the main. Zealot is too good not to run IMO. I almost want to run two.

What would be the best to bring in for destructive purposes? Terastodon? Idk about Angel of Despair. I want Archon in the board too.

[Sunsatzu]

Iona is pretty much gravy, I would have no problem cutting her from the main. Zealot is too good not to run IMO.

i myself have considered cutting Sphinx for Iona of late, if for nothing else than the storm & Lands decks i expect to come back out in my meta

[GoldenCid]

i myself have considered cutting Sphinx for Iona of late, if for nothing else than the storm & Lands decks i expect to come back out in my meta


I guess you're runnig LED dredge right?

[CabalTherapy]

Iona is pretty much gravy, I would have no problem cutting her from the main. Zealot is too good not to run IMO. I almost want to run two.

What would be the best to bring in for destructive purposes? Terastodon? Idk about Angel of Despair. I want Archon in the board too.

If you want an DR target SB, you can play this list: http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiaiaN4vd

Archon is weaker than Chosen and Iona.

[Sunsatzu]

I guess you're runnig LED dredge right?

no, i do not run LED, my list is on page 48, sb on 49. my friends dredge deck i played before making my own, played Iona over Sphinx/Witness and this meant he didnt need the slot for primus/terastodon/despair in his side. although i am keeping that slot in my side as you still need it if they find Chasm early. playing Iona basically helps our worst matchups by slowing them down, although you could argue having sphinx to find zealot would win faster, this isnt always the case.

[GoldenCid]

no, i do not run LED, my list is on page 48, sb on 49. my friends dredge deck i played before making my own, played Iona over Sphinx/Witness and this meant he didnt need the slot for primus/terastodon/despair in his side. although i am keeping that slot in my side as you still need it if they find Chasm early. playing Iona basically helps our worst matchups by slowing them down, although you could argue having sphinx to find zealot would win faster, this isnt always the case.

Lands is a awful pairing. I side in terastodon and CoV.

LED dredges allows to get rid a bit easier from storm and lands deck.

[Ozymandias]

Let's say your're playing frogboy's dredge list. How would you sideboard versus a hate package of 2 crypt, 2 wheel of sun and moon, 1 Bojuka Bog (to be fetched by Knight of the Reliquary) and 3 Gaddock Teeg? There are also Equipment and vials in the deck. I ended up cutting 3 Careful Study, 1 Dread Return, and 1 DR target for 3 Grudge and 2 Ray. Chain is not going to get there most of the time, IMO. Would you put it in? The deck was too slow for me to care about Chosen, and Leyline was not something I had room for.

[Arjerei]

On second and on third game, discard has to be selective, thats the reason we run firestorm (Uncontrarrestable discard), not only against aggresive decks, and thats the reason careful never has to been side out, Breakthrough is a card that could cost a game agains graveyard hate, this is the first one who has to been sided out, followed by a dread return and a dread return target, because for the same reason pointed before, strategy changes ons second and third game.

[Ozymandias]

Breakthrough is only going to cost you the game versus hate if you whiff on dredging, in which case study would have been even worse.

[Sunsatzu]

Let's say your're playing frogboy's dredge list. How would you sideboard versus a hate package of 2 crypt, 2 wheel of sun and moon, 1 Bojuka Bog (to be fetched by Knight of the Reliquary) and 3 Gaddock Teeg? There are also Equipment and vials in the deck. I ended up cutting 3 Careful Study, 1 Dread Return, and 1 DR target for 3 Grudge and 2 Ray. Chain is not going to get there most of the time, IMO. Would you put it in? The deck was too slow for me to care about Chosen, and Leyline was not something I had room for.

while im having to guess this is against Zoo/Bant, and i cant find frogboy's list, on the draw, id run rays and chain(over grudge due specifically to Wheel of Sun and Moon), whilst siding out breakhroughs and therapies. on the play however id side in grudge for emergency crypts, and either go for turn 2 win or early therapy for wheel or teeg. prob siding out studies or ichorids since youre going for the quick win.

[Izor]

I don't know frogboy's list, so I can only say what I would board with my list.

+4 Nature's Claim, +3 Firestorm, +1 Ancient Grudge
-4 Careful Study, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Tarnished Citadel, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Ichorid

But that might also vary. I don't really know the opposing deck now, only some facts. And I also left out whether I'm on the draw or on the play.

[MrSoze]

Hey guys,

I finished 15th at SCG KC this past weekend with Non-LED Dredge. Decklist available here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36127

Went 6-2, 1 loss to a friend playing Shelldrazi (I'm pretty sure the only way to consistently win this match is to shoot the opponent in the head with a .44 Magnum, which I don't recommend due to both the criminal charges and the possibility that your DCI membership could get suspended), and to AJ Sacher's NOBant after I mulled to 5 in Game 2 and punted TERRIBLY in game 3. All of the other matchups were against various aggro/tempo decks, and none were very close; I 2-0'd 3 Merfolk decks, although I can't really say that the players were the best I've ever seen. One of them, in fact, in game 2 went Island, Mutavault, Standstill, and seemed shocked when I didn't just pick up my cards. When he broke the Standstill 6 turns later against my 6 zombie tokens, I dumped most of my deck in the yard and killed him on the next turn. Another zoo player 'obviously' boarded out his STP's against my Zombie tokens and was taken down by Grave-trolls. No one seems to know the right lines of play against Dredge.

I liked my main deck a lot, but I hated my sideboard; I know for a fact that I was guilty of overkilling on certain points, i.e. the 4 Chain of Vapor. Am looking for a suggestive sideboard with SOME possible combo hate, because I felt helpless against Shelldrazi outside of Cabal Therapy and praying that he mulled into oblivion.

[Sunsatzu]

I liked my main deck a lot, but I hated my sideboard; I know for a fact that I was guilty of overkilling on certain points, i.e. the 4 Chain of Vapor. Am looking for a suggestive sideboard with SOME possible combo hate, because I felt helpless against Shelldrazi outside of Cabal Therapy and praying that he mulled into oblivion.

my only md diff is -1 CT, -1 Ichorid*; +1 FKZ, +1 SoLT*, so my sb'ing should be pretty close to yours


4 Chain of Vapor, 1 Nature's Claim/4 Nature's Claim, 1 Ray of Revelation

i play the former because more lands produce blue, i do not play Firestorm for Zoo(Teeg), and there is R/b Goblins with Leylines in my meta. i have noticed though that the japs prefer the latter, as do some 'pros'.

4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Cabal Therapy/FKZ*
1 Ichoird/SoLT*/Iona/'filler'
1 terastodon/primus/despair/razer

your everyday necessities, i only play FKZ main because i have storm and lands to deal with on a consistant basis

2 Unmask/Duress

my bread and butter vs combo, its not much, but 6 discard spells total help to keep mulliganing to a minumum, consistantly giving either disruption or the turn 2 win.

btw my main deck is on page 48, with my basic sb'ing(its not entirely correct) being on page 49.

[Anusien]

Hey guys,

I finished 15th at SCG KC this past weekend with Non-LED Dredge. Decklist available here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36127
Congrats! While more of you putting up results makes things harder for the rest of us, it is a validation of sorts.


No one seems to know the right lines of play against Dredge.
This is basically the exact reason to play Dredge. Aside from no one packing enough hate, you hit the nail on the head. Also, Natural Order decks can be a really poor matchup because of War Monk, killing Bridges, getting giant guys and having a lot of relevant disruption.


I liked my main deck a lot, but I hated my sideboard; I know for a fact that I was guilty of overkilling on certain points, i.e. the 4 Chain of Vapor. Am looking for a suggestive sideboard with SOME possible combo hate, because I felt helpless against Shelldrazi outside of Cabal Therapy and praying that he mulled into oblivion.
Your maindeck is pretty much right. I like the 4th Careful Study, and I have the 4th Dread Return in the sideboard. Considering where most other Dredge players are, these are quibbling differences.
You are totally right about the overkill. It's probably that you just didn't know what to do and packed extra hate. If you want other cards, you could consider:
Unmask, Force of Will, Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Firestorm (not against combo, but still relevant).
Against Tendrils I bring in the Ancestor's Chosen in addition to the FKZ. I also have a Sphinx of Lost Truths to make that plan better when I need it and bring it in. It's going to be a tough matchup no matter what you do though.

[Hitman82]

Went 6-2, 1 loss to a friend playing Shelldrazi (I'm pretty sure the only way to consistently win this match is to shoot the opponent in the head with a .44 Magnum, which I don't recommend due to both the criminal charges and the possibility that your DCI membership could get suspended)

My experience has been really different. I've never lost to this deck and it wasn't even close. Are you sure he didn't just have the nuts against you? The faster combo decks are a problem but Shelldrazi, or whatever it's called, seemed terrible and slow. If you want to sideboard a card against combo, you should consider Leyline of Sanctity since it also blanks things like Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb.