[Deck] Dredge

[Anusien]

Do not board Leyline of Sanctity against Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb. It isn't worth it.

The only time I'd bring in Leyline as anti-hate is against a deck that has Bogs and Traps and no artifacts or Leyline. Even then it might not be worth the slots.

[Hitman82]

I never sideboard the card at all. I was just trying to suggest a card he could use for combo which could have other applications as well. My sideboard is 4 Nature's Claim, 4 Firestorm, 4 Chain of Vapor and 3 Ancient Grudge. It's been really good for me. Nature's Claim is the nuts.

[MrSoze]

My experience has been really different. I've never lost to this deck and it wasn't even close. Are you sure he didn't just have the nuts against you? The faster combo decks are a problem but Shelldrazi, or whatever it's called, seemed terrible and slow. If you want to sideboard a card against combo, you should consider Leyline of Sanctity since it also blanks things like Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb.

Perhaps he did just have the nuts, but your experience is different than mine. They have a fast combo with Lim-Dul's Vault finding the pieces on turn 2, Cloud of Faeries to untap the shelldock for the T3 win, and countermagic for therapies and fast dread returns when I try to race. Emrakul ended games 1 & 3; he mulled to 4 and Therapy got him in game 2. In addition, his sideboard was particularly atrocious for me, as it had the ability to transform into Helm/Leyline combo as well as the primary; he landed T0 Leyline G3 and combo'd me turn 4. I just can't agree that this is a good matchup for us assuming that the other player knows what he' s doing with the deck, outside of multiple Therapy games getting them.

[frogboy]

I don't play against many Show and Tell-esque decks, but I win more than I lose against them. You have to hit them with a Therapy or bury them with a draw spell on two, but that's not that hard to do. I've beaten Emrakul multiple times, too.

Anusien: Usually against Natural Order decks I recur Ichorids, let them die until I have a bunch of Zombies, then swarm them three to five turns later. If they get out Progenitus, you have to find your Ancestor's Chosen. DDD lines aren't as good.

[Anusien]

I've always felt unnaturally pressured by the existence of Natural Order because it kills Bridges and if I don't have a Troll first, I can't race.

Then again, I've had them NOT cast Natural Order more than they do.

[Izor]

If my opponent casts NO that's of course bad, for obvious reasons. Thing is, I usually manage to prevent them from casting it. If the NO deck is non-blue I didn't have too many problems, because I'm just too fast for a 4 cmc spell. If the NO plan has counter backup it's harder but still... resolving a big Troll or therapying away the NO usually gets there.

As of the Shelldrazi matchup. I don't have much expierience against that specific archetype but I've battled several Show and Tell decks as well as DDFT (which is pretty similar to Shelldrazi iirc). It's of course a straight race, but I think I won more than I lost. They rarely win on turn 2, so if I had the nuts (Gold Land, Dredger, Discarder, Draw spell) I always won. They can't really win through 2-3 Therapies by turn 2.
And even if I didn't have the nuts, well timed and well aimed early therapies often slowed him down enough.

[Sunsatzu]

in my combo mu's ive been siding -2 tribe, -2 ichorid; +2 (discard), +1 therapy, +1 chosen/razer. however, im finding it extremely hard/rare for me to get to 3 dudes before they restabilize. ideas?

also, with spring/spiral tide a legitimate deck again, i believe the primus/terastodon/despair slot should definately go to Realm Razer, as its the best vs more of the decks where we would side the card in. aka lands, enchantress, etc

[sadakiyo]

Guys, I went to a small tournament and got beaten by sneak show deck. He SB 3 tormod's against me. I went the DDD way and it was just not working. He was simply fast eanough to drop emrakul on turn 3/4.
Any good sideboard for this particular MU? I was thinking of 2 unmasks.

[GoldenCid]

Guys, I went to a small tournament and got beaten by sneak show deck. He SB 3 tormod's against me. I went the DDD way and it was just not working. He was simply fast eanough to drop emrakul on turn 3/4.
Any good sideboard for this particular MU? I was thinking of 2 unmasks.

That's correct...do you play leds??

3 Unmask and well used cabalt therapies should slow down your opo until you go off.

[Izor]

Guys, I went to a small tournament and got beaten by sneak show deck. He SB 3 tormod's against me. I went the DDD way and it was just not working. He was simply fast eanough to drop emrakul on turn 3/4.
Any good sideboard for this particular MU? I was thinking of 2 unmasks.

I wouldn't take Unmasks, for the simple reason that I consider that card incredibly bad and don't understand why anyone would want to play it at all. I don't see what it would do for you if you can discard your foe's combo piece or hate, but lose your own most important 'combo' pieces in the process.

I wouldn't DDD against a combo deck tbh. That will mostly result in a very quick loss. You should try to be as fast as possible while therapying away their combo pieces. You could board Grudges to fight their Crypts, but if 3 Crypts is everything they have to disrupt your game plan, it could be better to rely on the probability that they never find one.

And if they hit your own Discard outlet or draw spell with a counter, that's bad luck. But I still think that playing as fast as possible is better than DDDing against combo decks.

And on a sidenote: If you're afraid of their countermagic, Unmask isn't a solution either. If they simply Force the Unmask you'll be slowed down much more than if they hit your discard outlet with it most of the time.

[Kyle Hyde]

Pardon my ignorance, but what does DDD refer to?

[1maarten1]

Pardon my ignorance, but what does DDD refer to?

Draw Discard Dredge ;).

[sadakiyo]

so, against combo deck like emrakul, just sideboard the grudge (in case he find a crypt or relic) and nothing else? I would try that strategy. Unmasks isn't completely bad IMO, it can target you on the first turn and then go off with breakthrough. I wouldn't try that though, unless I am very sure that my opponent doesn't have counter.

Another question is : How do you play against counter top deck who drops relic turn 1?
I cant go DDD for sure once I see that, right? Do I just punch through their counters and try resolving a discard outlet??

Thanks for the kind comments guys

[Ozymandias]

Just t16ed the SCG open with the following list:


Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus

Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below

Legendary Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Firestorm
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation

So exhausted-going to bed.

[Kyle Hyde]

@ Ozymondias: I'd love to hear a report of the tournament. I'm interested in why you chose the list you did, and how side boarding went. I assume woodfall primus is because it is a recurring sac target with a good sized body, yes?

[Parax]

Full report tonight!

[Osmin]

Hi all!
I noticed that many players put both Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim in their SB (not to mention Ancient Grudge). When you use one instead of another?

[Ozymandias]

Well, I wanted my DR targets to help me beat random shit, so Primus and Iona are the best choices since they stop so much of what can beat you. I chose primus over angel of despair since it can nail 2 things with therapy. My sb is similarly geared to help versus tribal decks, though I was too paranoid about leylines.

I will type up a more detailed report, maybe, but I beat ANT, High Tide/Time Spiral, Merfolk, Show and Tell/Sneak Attack, Dredge, and green and taxes splash black. I lose to Elf Combo and Goblins, both due to my deck just dying on me. Versus Elves, I went turn 1 tribe, turn 2 discard Imp, dredge, cast study, dredge 5 blanks, whiff game away. Game 2 I mull to 4 and he opens on double crypt+natural order turn 3. Versus Goblins I mulled to oblivion twice. I never ended up DRing Woodfall primus, though Iona singlehandedly won the mirror for me, and Darkblast performed heroically versus merfolk, the mirror, and green and taxes. Leyline was basically nowhere, and I will probably cut down my board hate. I might move a Darkblast to the main for Primus, and try and squeeze a 15th land with some utility in.

[Izor]

Well, I wanted my DR targets to help me beat random shit, so Primus and Iona are the best choices since they stop so much of what can beat you. I chose primus over angel of despair since it can nail 2 things with therapy. My sb is similarly geared to help versus tribal decks, though I was too paranoid about leylines.

I will type up a more detailed report, maybe, but I beat ANT, High Tide/Time Spiral, Merfolk, Show and Tell/Sneak Attack, Dredge, and green and taxes splash black. I lose to Elf Combo and Goblins, both due to my deck just dying on me. Versus Elves, I went turn 1 tribe, turn 2 discard Imp, dredge, cast study, dredge 5 blanks, whiff game away. Game 2 I mull to 4 and he opens on double crypt+natural order turn 3. Versus Goblins I mulled to oblivion twice. I never ended up DRing Woodfall primus, though Iona singlehandedly won the mirror for me, and Darkblast performed heroically versus merfolk, the mirror, and green and taxes. Leyline was basically nowhere, and I will probably cut down my board hate. I might move a Darkblast to the main for Primus, and try and squeeze a 15th land with some utility in.

Congratz for the finish.

And the changes you mentioned sound very reasonable. Seems like your deck performed very well, except that it mulled into oblivion a few times. There the 15 land as well as the 4th Study and/or the 11th Dredger could help.

[jimirynk]

sooooooohttp://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b406/Hannahmtg/6flyflib37_en.jpg

[Ozymandias]

So what? It doesn't look better than Grudge, because in my experience, when you're fighting Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb, the best anti-hate is actually Tireless Tribe, which will eventually help you dredge up the Grudge to force them to pop crypt and then leave the way clear for you to go off.. You'll almost never have the sabotage to counter crypt/relic on the way down.

[SHABOOGS]

To add to that: dredge pilots are usually on the draw on game 2 which makes that card is less effective if they play a first turn relic/crypt/spellbomb (since you can still bounce the hate using that spell). The only thing good about that card is that you can use cephalid coliseum to cast it but I think I'll stick with chain of vapor when it comes to bouncing permanents.

[sadakiyo]

@Shaboogs: How do you usually play around opponent who drops turn 1 relic backed up by countermagic? (eg:Merfolk, counterTop, etc).

[Izor]

How do you usually play around opponent who drops turn 1 relic backed up by countermagic? (eg:Merfolk, counterTop, etc).

Keep hands with lots of lands. Several discard outlets help too. You have to find the Grudge for the Relic as well as to fight through the counters. Cabal Therapy is a great card to have at hand. You know, the more counter maguc and grave hate they have, the less pressure they can put on you. So maybe you can win in the end. Still it's going to be hard.

[Ozymandias]

Firestorm is your friend because it forces them to pop Relic.

[SHABOOGS]

@Shaboogs: How do you usually play around opponent who drops turn 1 relic backed up by countermagic? (eg:Merfolk, counterTop, etc). I usually go for what Izor and Ozymandias suggested. It really depends on my opening but I try to resolve a discard outlet when facing relic by baiting them with multiple discard outlets or blind cabal therapy on force of will. Once your outlet hits the board, it's easier to get around relic's first ability since you can discard several cards in the yard to control what you exile once the first ability is activated. From there you can just dredge once per turn and wait for them to blow up relic or until you see ancient grudge in the yard.

[sadakiyo]

thanks, I will try that strategy on the next tourney

[Parax]

That Sphinx that allows you to draw two everytime your opponent draws a card. Would that be a good DR target for Dredge? It would allow you to Dredge twice on your opponents turn, or even allow you to draw some cards.

[lotriderm]

That Sphinx that allows you to draw two everytime your opponent draws a card. Would that be a good DR target for Dredge? It would allow you to Dredge twice on your opponents turn, or even allow you to draw some cards.

Not a very good target because if we are able to resolve DR, we should be able to win now or at least next turn. Sphinx of Lost Truths is still better than the new one because it draws 3 when it comes into play and doesn't have to wait until next turn.

[DragoFireheart]

Have there been any variations that use Vengevine? A sort of alternative win in case Bridges get removed?

[Digital Devil]

I have some questions related to one of the usually played Dread Return targets.

I do understand why Ancestor's Chosen is considered a strong choice, that's why I'm playing it in my sb. Sometimes, though, I get my graveyard wiped out, so I only get about 10/15 life. I mean, it is still an important swing in my favor. Alas, the decks against which Chosen is told to perform the best are capable of packing a heavy duty punch against my life total. With the sole exception of TES and Burn, which are something like the embodiment of a set amount of damage per time, Zoo and Goblin might tap enough creatures to end the game with my loss. Isn't Caldera Hellion a better call against those archetypes (generally against tribal and the mirror)? Sadly, neither can replace the other, since they have unique effects; but I think they're a complementary part of the sb. Is Darkblast enough to take care of Tribal decks/the mirror or is it recommended to play a singleton Hellion in a very aggro environment? Also, while Survival was popular, I used to play 2x Ray of Revelation. Now, is it a reasonable thing to replace 1x Ray with Caldera Hellion, seeing I'd virtually have 6 slots total against enchantments (4x Nature's Claim + 1x Ray of Revelation + 1x Angel of Despair - every slot dedicated to a particular kind of card)?


P.S. - Before the argument is taken into consideration, I really dislike Firestorm.

[say no to scurvy]

Have there been any variations that use Vengevine? A sort of alternative win in case Bridges get removed?

narcs and ichorids aren't cast

[Izor]

I have some questions related to one of the usually played Dread Return targets.

I do understand why Ancestor's Chosen is considered a strong choice, that's why I'm playing it in my sb. Sometimes, though, I get my graveyard wiped out, so I only get about 10/15 life. I mean, it is still an important swing in my favor. Alas, the decks against which Chosen is told to perform the best are capable of packing a heavy duty punch against my life total. With the sole exception of TES and Burn, which are something like the embodiment of a set amount of damage per time, Zoo and Goblin might tap enough creatures to end the game with my loss. Isn't Caldera Hellion a better call against those archetypes (generally against tribal and the mirror)? Sadly, neither can replace the other, since they have unique effects; but I think they're a complementary part of the sb. Is Darkblast enough to take care of Tribal decks/the mirror or is it recommended to play a singleton Hellion in a very aggro environment? Also, while Survival was popular, I used to play 2x Ray of Revelation. Now, is it a reasonable thing to replace 1x Ray with Caldera Hellion, seeing I'd virtually have 6 slots total against enchantments (4x Nature's Claim + 1x Ray of Revelation + 1x Angel of Despair - every slot dedicated to a particular kind of card)?


P.S. - Before the argument is taken into consideration, I really dislike Firestorm.

As you said, even if someone played Hellion, one would sill have to play the Chosen. His effect is just so good for this deck, it's not even fair against Aggro (especially without Firestorms btw). So a replacement is out of question. Then, there is a really big flaw in Hellion, which makes it unplayable: It kills each single creature in your own deck, but practically never kills the best and most played creature in the whole format, namely Tarmogoyf. That beast will mostly be 5/6 or bigger against us and it will easily blow you out after you resolve Hellion I imagine. Against Goblins and Merfolk, which don't have Goyfs, it's not as terrible but still not worth the slot (and the loss of all your Tokens !).

Oh, and Hellion nukes our own Bridges, which isn't too awesome either.

May I ask why you consider the Hellion, but dislike the strictly better and overall awesome Firestorm?


Have there been any variations that use Vengevine? A sort of alternative win in case Bridges get removed?

Veggies are completely unplayable in Dredge. As say no to scurvy said, we don't cast most creatures we get into play. I have difficulties remembering a single time when I've ever cast more than one creature during one turn. Aside from that, they're dead cards in the opening hand and we don't really have any slots left for anything in such a tight main list.

[DragoFireheart]

That's true. Ichorid never actually casts it's creatures now that I think about it: they are either reanimated or put onto the battlefield.

[Digital Devil]

It kills each single creature in your own deck, but practically never kills the best and most played creature in the whole format, namely Tarmogoyf. That beast will mostly be 5/6 or bigger against us and it will easily blow you out after you resolve Hellion I imagine
It kills almost any creature on the field and can outclass in combat the few survivors, including Tarmogoyf. If I kill my creatures with Hellion I still get some zombies before Bridges are removed. Zombie tokens which would die anyway are devoured, thus making Hellion stronger.
I consider it to be a Golgari Grave-Troll plus a free Wrath of God effect.

P.S - Actually Firestorm nukes Bridges, too.


May I ask why you consider the Hellion, but dislike the strictly better and overall awesome Firestorm?
Hellion doesn't cost mana, doesn't need a certain amount of cards in my hand and leaves a huge body on the battlefield.

[Izor]

It kills almost any creature on the field and can outclass in combat the few survivors, including Tarmogoyf.

I think I could promise you 10 dollars if you ever manage to DR a Hellion that kills Tarmogoyf. That's impossible. No Goyf will ever be 2/3 only if you have access to both Hellion and DR in your graveyard. Apart from that it doesn't kill any Rhox War Monks and practically never any KotRs.


If I kill my creatures with Hellion I still get some zombies before Bridges are removed. Zombie tokens which would die anyway are devoured, thus making Hellion stronger.
I consider it to be a Golgari Grave-Troll plus a free Wrath of God effect.

Hellion will never get as big as Grave Troll, except if you consistently devour 15 Creatures, which I doubt. And it doesn't regenerate. And Firespout is not Wrath of God.


P.S - Actually Firestorm nukes Bridges, too.

Yes. But Firestorm is simply not a card we use after we milled 4 Bridges into our graveyard, but before we even go off. You'll rarely have Firestorms in your hand after you go off anyway.


Hellion doesn't cost mana, doesn't need a certain amount of cards in my hand and leaves a huge body on the battlefield.

I think you got something wrong. Firestorm costs one mana as well as some cards in your hand, which you will usually want to bin anyway. Hellion is NOT free. It costs the following (I mean you need to have all that in order to resolve Hellion):
- a Discard Outlet
- Mana to play the Discard outlet
- a bunch of Dredgers
- Hellion in your graveyard which either takes 5 or more turns, or of course you need also:
- a Draw spell
- Mana to cast the draw spell
- and you need DR in your graveyard
- plus at least 3 creatures to pay for DR

So what's easier to resolve? I guess it's obvious. And the body that Hellion leaves really pales in front of Grave Trolls.

But anyway, it's not my point toget anyone to play cards they don't like. I just say that Hellion is just so much worse than Firestorm. So especially for someone who dislikes Firestorm, the Hellion shouldn't be the right choice.

[Digital Devil]

I think I could promise you 10 dollars if you ever manage to DR a Hellion that kills Tarmogoyf. That's impossible. No Goyf will ever be 2/3 only if you have access to both Hellion and DR in your graveyard. Apart from that it doesn't kill any Rhox War Monks and practically never any KotRs.

and can outclass in combat the few survivors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hellion will never get as big as Grave Troll, except if you consistently devour 15 Creatures, which I doubt. And it doesn't regenerate. And Firespout is not Wrath of God.
I know Firespout isn't Wrath of God, but unless a Merfolk/Goblin/Elves player has 3+ lords on the battlefield by the time I DR Hellion, it virtually is. When I said "it's GGT + poor men's Wrath of God" I wanted to say "It's a big creature (obviously not as big as GGT, as in my experience it's usually a 7/7, in comparison with huge 18/18 Trolls) which still puts me in a favorable board position by clearing away blockers and/or troublesome creatures". Of course if I have enough creatures to win I won't DR Hellion, and I also know sometimes it's win more, but I only have 1 free slot in my sideboard and can't play with 18 cards.


So what's easier to resolve? I guess it's obvious.
G2 I want to keep in my hand as much cards as possible. The only cards I'd like to toss in are redundant Lands and DR + targets, since redundant dredgers are useful to fight hate, draw spells are obviously insane and 1cc discard outlets are simply too strong. To go off with Firestorm, you still have to play lands and cast a draw spell thereafter. And since Firestorm doesn't win the game by itself, you still have to DR something in order to win. It's also way easier to start the game with one of my 8 permanent discard outlets than with one of my 4 Firestorms.

[Xurcks]

For the effect of Caldera Hellion , I would rather use Thunder Dragon. Nukes the board for three , 5/5 with flying to fight opponent when the battlefield is clogged.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=202544&type=card

[GoldenCid]

C'on guys! Are you beeing serious in the last posts??

[igri_is_a_bk]

Haha yeah, what are we discussing now? All these DR target suggestions are coming from somebody who hasn't played the deck. That's all I can conclude.

Anyways, on the topic of fighting Relic, there are some flaws in your plan to just discard multiple cards and fight through it. Okay, it's going to be G2 and you'll be on the draw, most likely. If they have Relic it's coming down their T1 and ideally, you'll be following up by dropping a Tribe or PImp before passing back. Now they have untapped, and, if they're smart, they'll keep a mana open the rest of the game to pop the Relic whenever necessary. If you discard one dredger in your upkeep, they can tap the Relic. If you discard a second dredger still in your upkeep, then they can pay use Relic's second ability. If they're smart, they won't ever let you dredge. And mathematically, you're not going to have Land + Discard Outlet + 3 dredgers in your top 8 cards (since you're drawing).

So what do we do here? Just hope we have some Careful Studys to dig for extra dredgers?

Edit: I'm being dumb, we just discard some erroneous card in response to the Relic tap. Nevermind, guys. But still, we need 2 dredgers, and what is the math behind having 2 dredgers + rainbow land + PImp/Tribe?

[Digital Devil]

C'on guys! Are you beeing serious in the last posts??
Unluckily for this thread's quality, yes. I'm sorry if I made those kind of questions, but I was trying to find an alternate way to win against Tribal decks and Zoo, seeing I occasionally scoop because when I reanimate a 20/20 GGT it tends to be blocked for several turns, until my opponent finds his
removal/bounce/whatever, and Ancestor's Chosen suffers from the same problem, although returning it makes me feel safe from harm. This basically happens only G2 and eventually G3, which are slower games, when I don't have the Breakthrough/Coliseum to go all-in and mill my library before my opponent plays his hate. I was thinking about what you said and I just realised one thing: Iona performs almost the same role I would play Hellion for. I wanted to play that creature because it cleared away blockers and made possible for me to attack. Well, Iona actually flies, and I don't have to waste additional slots since I play 1x maindeck. My bad.


P.S. - To avoid wasting DTB Forum's space with useless replies just like this and my previous posts, do you think Ancestor's Chosen + Iona is a bit overkill, against aggro? Should I keep both of them as reanimable targets?

[Ozymandias]

If they lead with relic, and you can answer with tribe or Imp, they will need to keep one mana open for quite some time unless they want you to role them. So having a virtual stone rain is pretty good. Meanwhile you have a few turns to draw action. Since you didn't keep a hand without a dredger, that means you've got at leaat 12 outs (at least 9 dredgers and at least 3 grudges) to make them pop the relic, plus whatever is in your hand. Good odds for any Greek.

[Anusien]

The answer is to not keep hands with 4 blanks. You shouldn't snap keep hands like "City of Brass, Tireless Tribe, Troll, 4 blanks".

The goal is ideally to either have to find an early Grudge to kill Relic or have them get nervous and blow Relic (like trying to hit your first Dredge card or stop some Narcomoebas). Then you pitch another Troll, cast the Careful Study or Breakthrough or Coliseum you've been sandbagging, and blow them out. (In some cases it's right to hold back Coliseum to not expose it prematurely to Wasteland).

The great thing about Imp/Tribe is that you can keep Dredge cards in your hand. If they try to stop you Dredging, you can pitch another card and keep going. If they try to hit you after you've Dredged to stop Bridge from Below or Narcomoeba, you've just Dredged, and therefore can just pitch the dredger after the Crypt and keep going. This is why Imp and Tribe are so important.

[Serbitar]

The answer is to not keep hands with 4 blanks. You shouldn't snap keep hands like "City of Brass, Tireless Tribe, Troll, 4 blanks".

Sure, there are more optimal hands, but I have a hard time to imagine mulliganing such a hand. The odds to get "5cLand, Imp/Tribe, Dredger + X" on 6 seem rather slim. It is also a judgement call whether your opponent should try to hit your first dredger or try to get 'more value' out of his hatecard. In my experience, people tend to sit on their Crypt/Relic more often than not.

[Bongo]

What do you think about keeping the deck straight UB? Currently I'm trying the following manabase:

4 USea
4 Watery Grace
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Fetchland
1 Dakmor Salvage

I'm only running two Fetches to minimize the vulnerability to Stifle. The singleton Salvage is there to dredge up in case you need the second mana. I also like it that it increases the Dredge count without taking up slots.

Sure, you lose Tireless Tribe and a host of sideboard cards, but are those really needed? I've been testing Hapless Researcher instead of Tribe, and he's been pretty good. Firestorm can be replaced with Sickening Dreams, and instead of the artifact destruction I'm running Null Rod and Pithing Needle.

What do you think?

[SHABOOGS]

IMHO Tireless Tribes, Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, etc. is currently irreplaceable. Sickening Dreams and Null Rod have a CMC of 2 which I think can't be consistently played with the current dredge mana base. There's a recent channelfireball article that altered the current manabase and used dual lands but the colors are BUG so that Claim and Grudge can still be used. I'm not completely sold on the idea but I'm still waiting for the next article.

[Anusien]

What do you think about keeping the deck straight UB?
What do you gain? Seems like nothing.


Sure, there are more optimal hands, but I have a hard time to imagine mulliganing such a hand. The odds to get "5cLand, Imp/Tribe, Dredger + X" on 6 seem rather slim. It is also a judgement call whether your opponent should try to hit your first dredger or try to get 'more value' out of his hatecard. In my experience, people tend to sit on their Crypt/Relic more often than not.
Game 1 I would absolutely mulligan that hand. Games 2 and 3 I would probably still mulligan that hand. If you're afraid to mulligan, switch decks. Not only are some of those cards blanks, but they're actively worse in your hand than in your deck. Hands with Narcomoeba and especially without two lands are just so awful.

[Bongo]

What do you gain? Seems like nothing.

The pain from City of Brass and Tarnished Citadel has been relevant, especially in post-board games. Also, I didn't like Gemstone and Undiscovered Paradise, as they don't allow you to play an attrition based game very well. Even simple stuff like paying for Daze is a lot harder with an Undiscovered Paradise. Alexander Shearer voiced similar concerns in his article, and I can reaffirm that I was having similar problems.

My idea was that you get additional mana stability with a two-color manabase. I don't really know if it's worth it, that's why I posted in this thread, to hear the opinion's of other Ichorid pilots. I kinda miss Tireless Tribe, but Nature's Claim and Firestorm not so much.

[Izor]

The pain from City of Brass and Tarnished Citadel has been relevant, especially in post-board games. Also, I didn't like Gemstone and Undiscovered Paradise, as they don't allow you to play an attrition based game very well. Even simple stuff like paying for Daze is a lot harder with an Undiscovered Paradise. Alexander Shearer voiced similar concerns in his article, and I can reaffirm that I was having similar problems.

My idea was that you get additional mana stability with a two-color manabase. I don't really know if it's worth it, that's why I posted in this thread, to hear the opinion's of other Ichorid pilots. I kinda miss Tireless Tribe, but Nature's Claim and Firestorm not so much.

A UB mana base brings more disadvantages than advantages. Getting damage each time you tap a land is annoying, but we usually lose very few games because of that. I've often managed to beat Burn decks when Tarnished was my only land. Oh, and you're right on Paradise. That card is not good for obvious reasons.

So the concerns are about longer games right? Well the problem is that we simply need 5 colors imo. We could play Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim. We could also play Needles over Grudge, although that's already a hard blow. But the main reason is Tireless Tribe, which is easily one of the best cards in the whole deck. I would never ever play less than 4 of those. I would even play a 5c mana base if Tribes was the only non-B and non-U card. It's just too good.


Sure, there are more optimal hands, but I have a hard time to imagine mulliganing such a hand. The odds to get "5cLand, Imp/Tribe, Dredger + X" on 6 seem rather slim. It is also a judgement call whether your opponent should try to hit your first dredger or try to get 'more value' out of his hatecard. In my experience, people tend to sit on their Crypt/Relic more often than not.

With 15 lands (11 of which rainbow), 12 discard outlets (with Cabal Therapy and Breakthrough as emergency backups) and 12 Dredgerd it happens quite often and allows us to mulligan aggressively. I think it's not exaggerated to say that proper mulliganing with this deck is one of the most important skills one has to learn.

[Ozymandias]

What do you think about keeping the deck straight UB? Currently I'm trying the following manabase:

4 USea
4 Watery Grace
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Fetchland
1 Dakmor Salvage

I'm only running two Fetches to minimize the vulnerability to Stifle. The singleton Salvage is there to dredge up in case you need the second mana. I also like it that it increases the Dredge count without taking up slots.

Sure, you lose Tireless Tribe and a host of sideboard cards, but are those really needed? I've been testing Hapless Researcher instead of Tribe, and he's been pretty good. Firestorm can be replaced with Sickening Dreams, and instead of the artifact destruction I'm running Null Rod and Pithing Needle.

What do you think?

No. Tribe is a godsend for this deck, for reasons Anusien talked about above. Salvage is terrible, especially because it is soo bad versus wasteland. Firestorm is an instant, and grudge can be dredged into. Needle is terrible nowadays, and you are losing ray of revelation. Your manabase is just as wasteable as before, plus you now lose to Lord of atlantis racing you. In summary, No.

[frogboy]

The pain from City of Brass and Tarnished Citadel has been relevant, especially in post-board games. Also, I didn't like Gemstone and Undiscovered Paradise, as they don't allow you to play an attrition based game very well. Even simple stuff like paying for Daze is a lot harder with an Undiscovered Paradise. Alexander Shearer voiced similar concerns in his article, and I can reaffirm that I was having similar problems.

My idea was that you get additional mana stability with a two-color manabase. I don't really know if it's worth it, that's why I posted in this thread, to hear the opinion's of other Ichorid pilots. I kinda miss Tireless Tribe, but Nature's Claim and Firestorm not so much.

Shearer's mana base is actually less stable. For example, sometimes you draw Bayou.

[Bongo]

Ok, thanks for the feedback guys. I can see the advantages of the 5c manabase and try to roll with it in the future (mainly because of Tribe, which I've been missing).

However, my concern remains that the manabase is painful and I've lost a few games to it. In particular, I don't like Tarnished Citadel (and Gemstone Mine to a lesser extent). Is there any better option?

[Ozymandias]

Postboard, you can bring in chosen in the matchups where it matters. Beyond that, I guess play tighter?

[Izor]

However, my concern remains that the manabase is painful and I've lost a few games to it. In particular, I don't like Tarnished Citadel (and Gemstone Mine to a lesser extent). Is there any better option?

Unfortunately there isn't. Tarnished is a bad card, but other rainbow lands are worse for us. Just to name a few: Forbidden Orchard, Thran Quarry, Tendo Ice Bridge, Forsaken City

They're horrible, right?

[Anusien]

Yes.

Don't keep mono-Tarnished Citadel hands against Zoo if that hand needs to tap Citadel a bunch of times. Although I like having Citadel as my second land, because it taps for colorless pain free (I do this a fair amount).

[Benobi]

Hi all, I'm a long-time Standard/Extended player trying to break into Legacy with Dredge; I have the deck built and I understand most of the basic theory behind how to play various matchups, but in practice I'm still "rough around the edges," so I was hoping to get some veteran advice.

Here's a situation that came up for me this past week in a tourney: I'm on the play, and I go turn 1 PImp, turn 2 dredge a ton with Cephalid Coliseum; My board is PImp, 1 Narcomoeba, and I have 2 Bridges, 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Dread Return, and 1 Golgari Grave Troll in my 'yard; assuming I know nothing about my opponent's deck (first turn was fetchland-go), what's the play here? Do I pitch one or both guys to Therapies to make Zombies? If so, do I pitch those Zombies to bring back the Troll right away?

Thanks in advance!

[Parax]

I would wait a turn so you have a chance to happen across something while you therapy. Example i'll just randomly name LED against belcher if i go first on games 2-3 becasue it cripples the deck. Then you can look at their hand and actually pick something. If you know nothing, then its a blind shot in the dark.

I'm not an experienced player with dredge either but this is what i'd do.

[Digital Devil]

Here's a situation that came up for me this past week in a tourney: I'm on the play, and I go turn 1 PImp, turn 2 dredge a ton with Cephalid Coliseum; My board is PImp, 1 Narcomoeba, and I have 2 Bridges, 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Dread Return, and 1 Golgari Grave Troll in my 'yard; assuming I know nothing about my opponent's deck (first turn was fetchland-go), what's the play here? Do I pitch one or both guys to Therapies to make Zombies? If so, do I pitch those Zombies to bring back the Troll right away?

Thanks in advance!

I would sacrifice Narcomoeba to name Force of Will. This way you'll have 2x zombies and Putrid Imp. Sacrificing them to DR Troll hypotethically gives you two more zombies, and if you hit your opponent's countermagic (or your opponent doesn't play any) and also see no removal - say, your opponent is playing UGR Dreadstill - you have an additional Cabal Therapy in your graveyard as well as 2 more virtual damage on the battlefield. Of course if you see removal you'll have to flashback the second Therapy by sacrificing Putrid Imp, but it's pretty obvious. Alas, I'm a terrible player, so I'm almost sure there's something better to do with those cards.

[Ozymandias]

I would recommend a blind therapy, saccing Narcomoeba, for Brainstorm versus fetch, go; Brainstorm is exceptionally common, and has a nasty habit of fucking future therapies.when critical cards show up. It also allows you to play against your one "Kryptonite scenario, where your opponent storms off; brainstorm is the only instant you need to fear in that scenario, as they would have chanted you already. Depending on what you see, you will then crack a second therapy, sacking imp and discarding your relevant cards in hand before you do, and then, if the coast is clear, DR golgari Grave troll to finish them,

[Anusien]

How big will the Troll be? Generally I find it's better to go ahead and make the Troll than to wait; if you can Dread Return, you probably should (assuming the way is clear).

If your Imp resolved, they probably don't have FoW. My first Therapy would be for Swords.

[sun1996]

what about this in side?
butcher of malakir
for 1 dread return we can easily remove progenitus and other fat guys just sacrificing creatures !
i think it's fantastic!

[Izor]

what about this in side?
butcher of malakir
for 1 dread return we can easily remove progenitus and other fat guys just sacrificing creatures !
i think it's fantastic!

The first thing that comes to mind is that Butcher nukes your own Bridges, which makes it kind of unplayable already.

But let's have a look. A DR target has to have a huge impact and it has to help out in situations where we are in trouble in order to be worth playing. So the only thing Butcher can do is remova a Progenitus, as you mentioned. The qustion is: Why do you even care about Progenitus. I would claim that Dredge is one of those few decks that can constantly race Progenitus. Our Grave Trolls are bigger and our Zombies are just too many.

Additionally it's nothing but useless if you don't have any sacrifice outlets in your graveyard.

So I wouldn't play it.

[forsmark]

Hello everyone!

I've been playing ichorid for a few weeks now in my local weekly tourny, been doing better each week. Last night I went 4-0-2, which is my best yet. I am still very unexperienced playing the deck really, so there is lots of room for improvement. This is the list I played:

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dread Return
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen

A word or two about the list:

2 Iona, Shield of Emeria - I find that going for the 3 creatures in play DR Iona into play ftw to be surprisingly strong. Maybe it's just me who deep down inside actually wants to play reanimator, but so far it's been treating me well.

Following the logic from above I have been feeling that I want to fit in the third DR somehow. But also, I feel that I want to fit in a thrid Thug or maybe a Darkblast as 12 dredgers sometimes seem a bit low. I have no idea what to cut tho.

In the sb I want to take out the leylines, as I have yet to board them in. Also changing Terastodon to Angel of Despair seems solid to me, as I have never had the need to blow out more than one thing yet. I have however had the need to blow up emrakul.

A few questions:

1) How to play against Jixlid Jailer? Darkblast?
2) How to play against Jitte? Tireless tribe and a bunch of zombies are the only thing to that are going to stick around, but bridges gets removed fast against Jitte (i find at least) and Tireless Tribe can't win on his own obviously.

[igri_is_a_bk]

You probably want to consider going up to 4 Ancient Grudge in your board. It's the most important card for us to bring in for a majority of matchups, as it can hit a lot of targets besides the obvious gy hate. Also, if you read the opening post, Parcher played Greater Gargadon to avoid Jitte counters, protect Bridges, and save Ichorids from exile.

[chags]

You probably want to consider going up to 4 Ancient Grudge in your board. It's the most important card for us to bring in for a majority of matchups, as it can hit a lot of targets besides the obvious gy hate. Also, if you read the opening post, Parcher played Greater Gargadon to avoid Jitte counters, protect Bridges, and save Ichorids from exile.


I have never seen anyone actually go to a tournament with greater gargodon in their sb for dredge. To avoid jitte counters you really just have to eliminate the jitte itself, one of the many uses for game 2 and 3 ancient grudge. The other option is to try a darkblast in the main to kill equipped creatures before they can deal damage. If you have enough bridges that you need to be scared of jitte then you should also be getting pretty close to just comboing out. If they continuously kill their dudes with jitte to get rid of all your bridges then just go on the ichorid aggro plan, they are clearing the way for him.

[Anusien]

Or race Jitte. It's not amazingly hard.

[chags]

So my current list looks like this:

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
4 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard
3 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen

My meta typically consists of ANT, countertop thopter, New Horizons, Zoo, Junk, Death and Taxes, and occasionally goblins, fish, landstill and burn. I've been toying with FKZ in the main to help against aggro and storm but am testing Terastodon to beat the random g1 hate new horizons, junk, zoo, and countertop all play. I'm looking for some opinions on sideboard plans for these match-ups. When I ran FKZ main sideboarding wasn't too hard but with the slight adjustments I want a more concrete plan for each match up. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[jandax]

So decks tend to maindeck GY hate where you play? Or have you been randomly blown out by a maindecked Relic or something? Thing is, maindecking hate slows down their gameplan, yet it shouldn't slow down your game one plan of overextending and stomping face. Maindeck FKZ will help you race fast decks like Storm, who sometimes don't even pack GY hate because they try to outrace the Zombie horde.

I'd not play around hate game one, as it is generally a lock for you. Changing your deck and play style to accomidate the randomness people do by maindecking GY hate slightly takes an edge away from your plans. If they have it, they were prepared and could possibly deserve the win. Don't count on every opponent maindecking hate, and for the random ones, remember who does it and what they're playing so if you sit across from them, you'll not walk right into a sandbagged Relic or something.

The only thing I can suggest is move FKZ main in Iona's spot. Game one, you wanna swarm them. Games two and or three, it's a tactical battle, and Iona is way more of a tactical card. FKZ makes you overextend by dredging to not only find it but return it with enough moebas and things. Iona can come into play and lock ANT out of Tendrils or Zoo off of their removal color (white if you have enough life, red if you're in burn range), and it's a three turn clock assuming no Ichorids or moebas have made contact.

[Lorenzo767]

Hi!
Is anyone testing Stile inside vs GY hate? it is also good to slow down opponent or to stop opponent's denial...
What do you think of it?

Actually my decklist is this:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

But i think i will make some change, infact i want to play Iona and the third Dread Return in MD but it's hard to find space for this 2 cards because i think the only solution is: +1 Iona+ 1 DR -1 Careful Study -1 Imp/tribe but i don't like to leave Study and Discardar-Creature...What do you think about it?
And about my SB?

[Anusien]

Holding up mana is very very difficult.

[I am the brainwasher]

What's about Massacre Wurm from MBS ?
To me it looks like just insane in the mirror or against Gobs as a Dread Return target in the sb. .

[chags]

So decks tend to maindeck GY hate where you play? Or have you been randomly blown out by a maindecked Relic or something? Thing is, maindecking hate slows down their gameplan, yet it shouldn't slow down your game one plan of overextending and stomping face. Maindeck FKZ will help you race fast decks like Storm, who sometimes don't even pack GY hate because they try to outrace the Zombie horde.

I'd not play around hate game one, as it is generally a lock for you. Changing your deck and play style to accomidate the randomness people do by maindecking GY hate slightly takes an edge away from your plans. If they have it, they were prepared and could possibly deserve the win. Don't count on every opponent maindecking hate, and for the random ones, remember who does it and what they're playing so if you sit across from them, you'll not walk right into a sandbagged Relic or something.

The only thing I can suggest is move FKZ main in Iona's spot. Game one, you wanna swarm them. Games two and or three, it's a tactical battle, and Iona is way more of a tactical card. FKZ makes you overextend by dredging to not only find it but return it with enough moebas and things. Iona can come into play and lock ANT out of Tendrils or Zoo off of their removal color (white if you have enough life, red if you're in burn range), and it's a three turn clock assuming no Ichorids or moebas have made contact.

Yea the main reason I put Tarastodon main is that within my playgroup there is a multitude of maindeck hate in rare forms like humility, ensnaring bridge, pithing needle [easiest to get around by far], and some other random stuff. While I like FKZ main he only has felt necessary against storm and the storm pilots i tend to run into are not all that great. Iona shuts out the control decks pretty well, I may move terastodon back to the side but he performed well for me last week.

[Parcher]

Allright baby birds. I guess it's time to feed you. I had just hped that someone else would have figured it out by now.

You want the one card that replaces all main deck Dread Return targets?

The one that gives (with another Dread Return on GGT+Therapy) the speed of FKZ, without it's vulnerability to Bridge removal?

The one that dodges Elephant Grass? Propaganda? Tabernacle? Even Moat and Blazing Archon? Basically everything in the format outside Confinement and Chasm. And in conjunction with Firestorm or Gargadon can even beat those?

The single card that makes an Emrakul attack by your opponent an auto-win for you?

The one that makes the enemy's Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed a no-win situation? That lets you ignore blockers?

The card that makes even with the weakest graveyards, each Ichorid swing for six? That swings for a hasty five himself?

Yes, you do need to Therapy away Plow first, but the card I'm talking about is:

STALKING VENGANCE

[jandax]

Solid tech right there

[Kage]

Parcher 4 president. Seriously.

[Ozymandias]

This is tech from 2007, guys:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18826858/The_all-in-one-place_Standard_metagame_for_the_Nationals_season&post_num=12#320877398

The big issue with stalking vengeance FTW is that you need an additional Dread Return and an additional Therapy, and moreover, your troll needs to be 20/20 to get there. You only run max 30 creatures, so you have to have dredged most of your deck to win anyway, and if you have to sculpt double DR to win, might as well run Primus/Terastodon+FKZ/Iona so that your targets actually do things on their own. Still, an interesting thought.

[GGoober]

Allright baby birds. I guess it's time to feed you. I had just hped that someone else would have figured it out by now.

You want the one card that replaces all main deck Dread Return targets?

The one that gives (with another Dread Return on GGT+Therapy) the speed of FKZ, without it's vulnerability to Bridge removal?

The one that dodges Elephant Grass? Propaganda? Tabernacle? Even Moat and Blazing Archon? Basically everything in the format outside Confinement and Chasm. And in conjunction with Firestorm or Gargadon can even beat those?

The single card that makes an Emrakul attack by your opponent an auto-win for you?

The one that makes the enemy's Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed a no-win situation? That lets you ignore blockers?

The card that makes even with the weakest graveyards, each Ichorid swing for six? That swings for a hasty five himself?

Yes, you do need to Therapy away Plow first, but the card I'm talking about is:

STALKING VENGANCE

Best president speech ever. You convinced me and get my vote! That is some serious tech, despite Ozzy showing that it's been tried. But meta change in out, so I guess this is in nao?

[Izor]

Haha, wow this Vengeance idea is nice.

Although Ozymanias alredy said that it will probably not become a staple, I just wanted to add that it actually requires less than a 20/20 troll. Say you DR Vengeance, then sac 3 tokens to DR Troll, the Troll has to be only 14/14 to make the damage lethal (due to the tokens that died).

[coraz86]

The big issue with stalking vengeance FTW is that you need an additional Dread Return and an additional Therapy, and moreover, your troll needs to be 20/20 to get there. You only run max 30 creatures, so you have to have dredged most of your deck to win anyway, and if you have to sculpt double DR to win, might as well run Primus/Terastodon+FKZ/Iona so that your targets actually do things on their own. Still, an interesting thought.

I agree that it's not a knee-jerk auto-include, but if it sticks for very long, Ichorids going home at the end of every turn will do damage. Multiple free Lightning Bolts every turn seem pretty okay. Might be decent anti-Moat tech or decent for the mirror or something. Anyway, I feel like Parcher made a solid case for it.

[Ozymandias]

Again, you're looking at a win-more situation.

The cards I stare most at in my Ichorid list, the ones that dare me to cut them, are the Dread Return targets. They're often superfluous when you're ahead, and often too-little-too-late when you're behind (For instance, TES, where the good versions chant you in your draw step and win the next turn. It's just that there are a lot of games where DR targets are the only good routes to victory, such as when Terastodon clears out a moat or Iona locks Storm or Ichorid off of black. I just don't know if those games are actually worth putting two blanks in your opening hand. Most of the time--I would go as far as to say by far the vast majority of the time-- if you cast thee therapies and dread return Troll, or swing with two ichorids across a c clear field, then turn them into 4 zombies at EOT, you're going to win anyway. I guess part of the reason I play DR targets is for psychological comfort--I may not win EVERY game 1, but at least I know I'm CAPABLE of winning every game 1. Stalking vengeance doesn't do more than more popular targets, and so, back to the EDH decks it should go.

[SHABOOGS]

I knew I've seen that tech before. I'm with Ozy on this one. I think Furystoke Giant seems to be a better option (not that I use it in my 75) if you want to go around moat, peacekeepers, blazing archons, and propaganda effects since you don't need other spells to make it work.

[GGoober]

Although why not Angel of Despair which kills both Emrakul, Moat and any junk that they play? If they have EE in play before Dread Return, Vengeance won't work either since they'll pop in response to DR on the stack.

I guess the only benefit of playing Vengeance is it gets past Humility and EE post-zombie phase.

[Anusien]

Allright baby birds. I guess it's time to feed you. I had just hped that someone else would have figured it out by now.

You want the one card that replaces all main deck Dread Return targets?

The one that gives (with another Dread Return on GGT+Therapy) the speed of FKZ, without it's vulnerability to Bridge removal?

The one that dodges Elephant Grass? Propaganda? Tabernacle? Even Moat and Blazing Archon? Basically everything in the format outside Confinement and Chasm. And in conjunction with Firestorm or Gargadon can even beat those?

The single card that makes an Emrakul attack by your opponent an auto-win for you?

The one that makes the enemy's Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed a no-win situation? That lets you ignore blockers?

The card that makes even with the weakest graveyards, each Ichorid swing for six? That swings for a hasty five himself?

Yes, you do need to Therapy away Plow first, but the card I'm talking about is:

STALKING VENGANCE
They would just kill all your Zombies with EE/Deed in response to Stalking Vengeance. If you're deep enough in your graveyard to hit your singleton DR target anyway, you've got a loaded graveyard.

[jandax]

Because "they" being everyone who plays Legacy?

[Dune Echo]

I'd like to ask some questions as I've been lightly playtesting and casually playing Dredge, but I'd be interested in everyone's input. If possible, can the guide Parcher wrote on the first page be updated with the latest developments?

1) What's your current take on the LED vs. Tireless Tribe debate? I know, it's speed versus consistency, but what's the current thoughts? The most recent 3rd place Dredge deck (http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiabEiaq6) (in Europe) ran LED-less. This could be a result of budget though.

2) Is it possible and functional to run Tireless Tribe and Lion's Eye Diamond along with Putrid Imp in the same deck? I haven't tried it, but have thought about it for a while. Seems like a lot of unnecessary additional discard.

3) Steve Menedian argued fairly convincingly that Dredge should be considered a Deck To Beat because of its speed and explosiveness, but should not be a Deck That Wins because it hasn't consistently placed in the top 8 of any reported tournaments on SCG or DeckCheck.org. Has anyone had any non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary I might be missing? The most recent collection of Dredge winnings (http://www.deckcheck.org/index.php?x=8QRffj1h8QerWVF3HwmXgCAKunerRfLWVrtun2MDBF3erDB0YRfDgCWVlGrtWVF38QmXgCer1hWVgCWVxORflGunerlG) indicate that none of them have placed higher than 3rd place in the past three months (in Europe).

4) I know Parcher recommended Stalking Vengeance which could be a serious suggestion or not. I see the potential of the card choice, but I'm curious that if it is a serious suggestion, what's the current decklist suggested to support it?

5) How necessary is Unmask, Eternal Witness, and Firestorm in the modern build against the current Decks That Win?

6) Is the turn 1 win of LED really necessary?

[Infinitium]

Stalking Vengeance is actually a pretty good alternative to FKZ seeing that if you are deep enough down to make 6 tokens + Return odds are that you also have access to that additional DR + GGT + Therapy (or Gargadon) to snuff the opponent good. Winning a turn faster and through effects that prevents attacking is probably worth the slot. Concur'd.

[Ozymandias]

1) Tireless tribe is pretty much better at this point. The added resiliency is too important to sacrifice for speed. Consistency is a straw man, and is fine for LED dredge also.
2) You can, I've tried it, you mean putrid imp, at that point you probably want DA, the only good slots t cut that don't wreck your consistency are DR targets/study, and at that point why even run LED? On the other hand, you will always crush blue.
3) Dredge is going to get varianced a lot, especially with the lower amount of people playing it.
4) Normal LEDless dredge with only stalking vengeance as a DR target, 3 dread return, 4 Careful study.
5) Unmask--not necessary, Storm is a bit player. Firestorm--I really like it, and I think a few copies are crucial to give you an uncounterable discard outlet/wrath effect. Eternal Witness--wasn't even necessary in thew first place.
6) Not in the current metagame.

[Hitman82]

Stalking Vengeance is old "tech". By tech I mean not as good as Flame-Kin Zealot and discovered about two years ago in Germany.

[Dune Echo]

you mean putrid imp
Whoops, yeah. Thanks for catching that. I just call him PImp normally and wrote the wrong one.

Thanks for the straight-forward and clear answers too. I really found them helpful.

[Dune Echo]

4) Normal LEDless dredge with only stalking vengeance as a DR target, 3 dread return, 4 Careful study.
Since you pointed out that Stalking Vengeance requires additional Cabal Therapies and Dread Returns and coupled with your own thoughts on the DR targets in your deck, I'm going to skip that addition for now. What DR targets do you typically run or would you recommend? I'm leaning towards possibly running Terastadon/Iona just for the early disruption it would lead to. (I see the increased versatility of Angel of Despair, but it seems a turn 2 Terastadon just screws up so much of the opponent's side of the board with a manageable disadvantage to you.


Firestorm--I really like it, and I think a few copies are crucial to give you an uncounterable discard outlet/wrath effect.
How many would you think for the maindeck? 2? 3?

How important is the 15 land build versus 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Coliseum builds in the current meta? I'm presuming the two additional lands feed into the consistency position?

Would you consider this to be "Normal LEDless Dredge (http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiabEiaq6)"? Or at least a good approximation of it?

[menace13]

Since you pointed out that Stalking Vengeance requires additional Cabal Therapies and Dread Returns and coupled with your own thoughts on the DR targets in your deck, I'm going to skip that addition for now. What DR targets do you typically run or would you recommend? I'm leaning towards possibly running Terastadon/Iona just for the early disruption it would lead to. (I see the increased versatility of Angel of Despair, but it seems a turn 2 Terastadon just screws up so much of the opponent's side of the board with a manageable disadvantage to you.


How many would you think for the maindeck? 2? 3?

How important is the 15 land build versus 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Coliseum builds in the current meta? I'm presuming the two additional lands feed into the consistency position?

Would you consider this to be "Normal LEDless Dredge (http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiabEiaq6)"? Or at least a good approximation of it?
He just made top 16 at SCG 5K San Jose with it. Looks very close to the one in your link.

[Kyle Hyde]

My main problem with playing dredge is when it comes to sideboarding. Let's say you know you are facing a elf deck that is going to bring in three or four anti-gy cards, so you bring in 4 ancient grudge and maybe Iona or Ancestor's Chosen. What do you take out?

[jandax]

Are you on the play or draw? What DR targets do you have maindeck? Are they sure to bring in GY hate artifacts?

[Kyle Hyde]

Are you on the play or draw? What DR targets do you have maindeck? Are they sure to bring in GY hate artifacts?

On the draw, no DR targets maindeck, and yes.

[SHABOOGS]

I usually side out careful studies if I'm sure that I'll be facing graveyard hate in the form of artifacts so that I can win with breakthrough after I get rid of their hate. If they have leyline or wheel of sun and moon, I side out breakthroughs so that I can use careful studies to dig for an answer.

[TimEvans]

I've been having success with a sorta strange mana base. I only play mtgo due to lack of real competitive play in my area. Having said that when I built this deck a few weeks back I just didnt have the available cash for tarnished citadels.. and the rest of the stuff I needed.. I did find Grand Collisieum at .25c rather than the 6$ tag on citadel The collisieum is obviously not a top choice here, but I found many games I dealt myself a ton of dmg just running cob`s and cephalid colisieum as dmg lands.. I thought the 6-9-12 dmg i might take from a single citadel turned me off it.

I`ve not been playing the deck for not too long (weeks) and I will test out the citadels too. I run 13 lands, +1 in sb with no LED`s thats 4x cob, gemstone mine, cephalid colisieum, and 1x grand colisieum. It seems to work for me, although I clearly understand the drawback of having a cip tapped land on turn 1, it can be relevant as a t2 or t3 play from hand.

I also realise that ideally you`d rather not see turn 3.. but lets be realistic. Through disruption, removal, or hate turn 3 is often a sad reality.

[jandax]

On the draw, no DR targets maindeck, and yes.

If you're bringing in Nature's Claim, I'd take out Breakthrough. While a powerful card, it causes you to overextend to some for full effect. Also, you might not draw any Claims, and you might Dredge them away when playing with Breakthrough.

And why not run any maindecked DR targets? Game one is where you get to abuse DR

[Sunsatzu]

with silmple no DR target led-less dredge vs elves

-4 Breakthrough
-2 Cabal Therapy

+4 Ancient Grudge
+1 Iona
+1 Ancestor's Chosen

[Anusien]

Cutting Cabal Therapy against a combo deck is pretty hilarious.

[Sunsatzu]

we're talking elves here, not storm or NO/SnT where the card to call is obvious. elves CAN go off turn 2 (just like us) but it usually doesnt. Dredge is usually a full turn faster . if youre really worried about elves, u can play Chalice as a catchall for combo. just beware that since youd be setting it at 1, youll be going DDD and winning with ichorids.

edit= yes, elves does often have a natural order package in the sb, but i think the 2 remaining therapies are enough.

[Izor]

I haven't played against Elves so much, as it's not really present in my metagame, but I think I wouldn't board out Therapies as well.

I could understand that Therapy wouldn't be as good if you didn't have an obvious target. But I think there are one or two targets that would be worth discarding.

One time I played against it I cast Therapy for Nettle Sentinel on my first turn hitting 1. I won that game on turn 4 with Iona on Green and my opponent told me that he would have gone off on turn 3 with that one Sentinel. Basically, each Sentinel you therapy away makes them one turn slower, which is pretty acceptable. And if they're on the play they will rarely play Sentinel on turn 1. They'll rather play a Mana elf, or else they'll be one turn slower again.

Also, I really liked to have additional Therapies beyond the first, so I could easily get their Heritage Druid/Birchlore Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, NO or whatever combo piece they would probably need most in the following turns.

So my board against combo elves would probably be something like:

- 4 Careful Study, - 1 Golgari Thug (Dredgers from 12 down to 11), - 1 Ichorid + 3 Ancient Grudge, + 3 Firestorm

Depending on the number and kind of hate they bring in it might as well be 4 Grudges + 2 Firestorm. Nature's Claim wouldn't be my call against that deck. What hate should mono-G combo play? Leyline is highly unlikely (no black) and Wheel of Sun and Moon looks a bit slow (I mean it takes one turn to cast it, which could also be the turn they go off).

[Ozymandias]

My board versus Elves was +3 Firestorm +3 Grudge +1 Darkblast -1 Primus -3 Study -2 Ichorid -1 Thug IIRC. Probably cut one more thing for Chosen come to think of it.

[frogboy]

with silmple no DR target led-less dredge vs elves

-4 Breakthrough
-2 Cabal Therapy

+4 Ancient Grudge
+1 Iona
+1 Ancestor's Chosen

Ancestor's Chosen doesn't even beat Elves. Boarding out Breakthrough against combo decks makes you super slow. I'd board out the Ichorids and probably leave Firestorm on the bench.

[Anusien]

Ancestor's Chosen can probably beat them if all they have is Grapeshot, but there's not a lot stopping them even then from just bashing with a Glimpse-fueled army. You're probably going to either win or lose very quickly.

I would want to try keeping Firestorm just to see what I could make happen. If you have 3 Ichorids you probably board them all out; I could see keeping them in if you have 4.

I've been experimenting with trimming down to 14 lands against combo decks and I've had a lot of success.

[frogboy]

You might keep one Ichorid if you need to kickstart a Bridge after a Breakthrough to grind out a long game. I don't think that would actually happen vs Elves.

Firestorm is fine but against most beatdown decks you don't have to start dredging immediately if you wait until turn two to Firestorm them. Elves is quite capable of playing Elf, go, any creature, go, and you probably have to pull the trigger against that. The problem is that they can kill you on turn three without much trouble from that situation, and if you have Breakthrough to go with Firestorm they were dead anyway so I want to win the hard games etc etc.

[Anusien]

I am not excited about my ability to clock Elves without Ichorid. They can chump block a Troll for just about forever, and possibly actual forever against Wirewood Symbiote.

It seems like I would rather have Firestorm than Tribe against Elves. I want all the blue draw in the world so I have a shot in hell of actually racing them. And Firestorm gives you a way to interact, which is desperately needed. I would rather Firestorm them and have them rebuild then to have them just turn 3 me while I'm stuck with random extra dorks in my hand.

[frogboy]

Oh. I was planning on burying them with Zealot. Your points about Troll are well taken.

[Anusien]

Yeah, your best plan is probably to Zealot them, but I still think being able to make an Ichorid or two is important.

Then again, if you're getting deep enough in your deck to Zealot them, you've probably cast a shitton of draw spells and only need 1 Ichorid. So maybe you can cut them. You're not going to grind them out with Ichorids in the lnog game and you can't even profitably swing (although they can't swing back until they're lethal).

[Dune Echo]

A recent T8 Dredge without LED to look at:
http://www.morphling.de/printview.php?c=1389&d=5

[Ozymandias]

I'm beginning to wonder if going full-on crazy with bloodghasts might be worthwhile. So far, I'm looking at the following MD:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair

4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
Spells [18]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass (Pain is better than impermanency for Dredge, IMO)
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Bloodghast is pretty bad against wastelands, put pretty good at giving you a lot of bodies for swarming, forcing opponents to pop crypts earlier, making you less reliant on Bridge From Below, and giving you legs versus Swords. The deck does lose a little bit of the "I win" factor by shaving a DR and a target, and running Dakmor Salvage is Eh at best.

[Rune]

Your list looks good. Bloodghast has always been a house for me in Vintage, and especially in sideboarded games because of its ability to fight through hate. This is partly because it's a creature light format, so I always assumed it wouldn't be as good in Legacy since the format is filled with big blockers. I don't play Legacy Dredge, but recently I tested against BG Dredge and found it to be much more annoying to play against than the normal Dredge lists, so I think the card should definitely be tested some more. Most BG lists I have seen so far have cut Tribe for BG, which just seems bad since Tribe is too good. Fitting both BG and Tribe in the same deck seems like total win-win on paper, and if the speed of the deck isn't hampered too much by BG and Paradise, then I think it should make the deck more resilient and just stronger overall.

[SHABOOGS]

I'm beginning to wonder if going full-on crazy with bloodghasts might be worthwhile. So far, I'm looking at the following MD:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair

4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
Spells [18]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass (Pain is better than impermanency for Dredge, IMO)
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Bloodghast is pretty bad against wastelands, put pretty good at giving you a lot of bodies for swarming, forcing opponents to pop crypts earlier, making you less reliant on Bridge From Below, and giving you legs versus Swords. The deck does lose a little bit of the "I win" factor by shaving a DR and a target, and running Dakmor Salvage is Eh at best.I like that list a lot. Been testing similar bloodghast list as well but I dropped Salvage in my list coz I didn't like wasting a draw for dredge 2.

EDIT: added the list I'm testing for comments and suggestions

// Creatures (29)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
2 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Sun Titan

// Spells (13)
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Careful Study

// Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below

// Lands (14)
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Gemstone Mine

10 dredgers, 10 gold lands, 10 discard outlets (PImp, Tribe, CS), 10 draw spells (BT, CS, CC), 10 free creatures (Ghast, Narc, Ichorid)

[igri_is_a_bk]

10 dredgers is worse, 10 gold lands is worse, 10 discard outlets (PImp, Tribe, CS) is worse, 10 draw spells (BT, CS, CC) is worse, 10 free creatures (Ghast, Narc, Ichorid)is slightly better

Doesn't seem worth it at all.

[SHABOOGS]

Doesn't seem worth it at all.10 dredgers is slightly worse from the traditional 11, 10 gold lands isn't worse since 10 gold lands is normal in traditional builds, 10 discard outlets (PImp, Tribe, CS) is slightly worse from the traditional 11, 10 draw spells (BT, CS, CC) is slightly worse from the traditional 11, 10 free creatures (Ghast, Narc, Ichorid) is better from the traditional 7. I think this is a more accurate description and is worth testing at the very least.

[RexFTW]

How is this a deck to beat now?

[menace13]

Recent Top 8 with LED version, 3rd place;
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=4844

What do you guys think? Is that how a LED version should look?

[TheSleeper]

How is this a deck to beat now?

No-one knows..

[Izor]

Recent Top 8 with LED version, 3rd place;
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=4844

What do you guys think? Is that how a LED version should look?

No.

I'm really interested in how he won his games in that tournament. Certainly not by casting Putrid Imps, because he will never have one of his 6 rainbow lands in hand together with Imp I guess. And he will probably not have activated a Coliseum.

Also, it must have been a tournament without graveyard hate. 3 Chains as anti hate is pretty optimistic. In turn, he decides to have a reactive sideboard with Mindbreak Trap and artifact Grave hate. Dredge and reactive simply doesn't fit imho.

The Phantom Nishoba is probably a joke and he used it only because he counldn't find a Vizzerdrix.

And cheers for the Relic in Dredge sideboards. Makes Tarmogoyfs smaller like a champ, which will certainly be relevant if you battle without your graveyard, I imagine. Too bad you can't dredge the Relic cantrip...


How is this a deck to beat now?


No-one knows..

I know. And shouldn't be the only one tbh.

Excerpt from The DTBF Philosophy & Deck Selection
(http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-Deck-Selection)

So how are decks selected for the DTBF?

Rather than relying on arbitrary selection or decision-making based on conjecture which can be tainted by personal bias, decks are selected for the DTBF based on their performance at recent, large, competitive Legacy tournaments. Decks which make up a very large portion of the metagame are considered DTB's. Decks which are less prevalent but appear multiple times are considered DTW's. Archetypes which appear multiple times are considered ATW's.

The data used for selection is based upon Top 8's from the most recent Legacy tournaments with 33 or more players. European, Japanese, and other non-American tournament data is included in this process, because there is a thriving, well-developed Legacy community in places other than America, and their results are relevant.

For the sake of currency and relevance, the DTBF contents will be revised on the first of every month. The data from the most recent ten tournaments will replace the previous data.

[menace13]

No.

I'm really interested in how he won his games in that tournament. Certainly not by casting Putrid Imps, because he will never have one of his 6 rainbow lands in hand together with Imp I guess. And he will probably not have activated a Coliseum.

Also, it must have been a tournament without graveyard hate. 3 Chains as anti hate is pretty optimistic. In turn, he decides to have a reactive sideboard with Mindbreak Trap and artifact Grave hate. Dredge and reactive simply doesn't fit imho.

The Phantom Nishoba is probably a joke and he used it only because he counldn't find a Vizzerdrix.

And cheers for the Relic in Dredge sideboards. Makes Tarmogoyfs smaller like a champ, which will certainly be relevant if you battle without your graveyard, I imagine. Too bad you can't dredge the Relic cantrip...
]


Coliseum has great synergy with LED, but 6 lands with only 4 being rainbow is low. You are right, his meta looks like all combo and FoW decks. The top 8 has 10 gy hate cards out of 120 slots. The combo decks did not even bother to slot anything for the GY. Maybe his choice of LED was correct in an enviroment of half combo and half FoW with 10 gy hate cards total in top 8, as were the Traps.

And I agree with everything else, The Nishoba<Ancestor's Chosen/Sphinx, would like to see where he used Relics and how.

Anyone playing a LED list or knows of other top 8s with that version?

[SHABOOGS]

How does LED improve the MU against combo and FoW decks? The first turn wins via LED is a very very very rare occurance. I think the pilot got lucky with his MUs on that day coz that build is very inconsistent IMHO.

[Final Fortune]

How does LED improve the MU against combo and FoW decks? The first turn wins via LED is a very very very rare occurance. I think the pilot got lucky with his MUs on that day coz that build is very inconsistent IMHO.

LED into Coliseum accelerates dredgers into Narcomoeba, which in turn enables Cabal Therapy -> ??? on the first turn and that disruptions buys enough time for the deck to either kill in the next two turns or continue dredging into Cabal Therapy.

[menace13]

The speed of a hand with LED+Dredgers and DA is what the deck is going for. Coliseum in that same hand is likely to dredge the entire deck with 5 draws. Not one of the Combo decks had any GY hate.

Lately Dredge has been doing well online and is currently in the top 5 of the most placing decks.

[Digital Devil]

The speed of a hand with LED+Dredgers and DA is what the deck is going for. Coliseum in that same hand is likely to dredge the entire deck with 5 draws. Not one of the Combo decks had any GY hate.
Unluckily, Force of Will does actually exist, so a scenario like that isn't going to happen quite often. Also, Tireless Tribe makes you recycle your best dredger while not making you hope to chain into another one, can attack or block, and can be sacrificed to Cabal Therapy and Dread Return.

[menace13]

Unluckily, Force of Will does actually exist
Obvious much?

The post was in response to how it performs against Combo.

[SHABOOGS]

LED into Coliseum accelerates dredgers into Narcomoeba, which in turn enables Cabal Therapy -> ??? on the first turn and that disruptions buys enough time for the deck to either kill in the next two turns or continue dredging into Cabal Therapy.That'll only happen if you're on the draw and you didn't mulligan.

[Final Fortune]

That'll only happen if you're on the draw and you didn't mulligan.

Obviously, nevertheless it does happen, and it happens via. LED into DA as well on the play. LED just increases the speed of the deck and in turn the increased speed provides a better win%, but that said it's not significant enough to play LED over Tireless Tribe for consistency vs every other archetype in the format.

[SHABOOGS]

Obviously, nevertheless it does happen, and it happens via. LED into DA as well on the play. LED just increases the speed of the deck and in turn the increased speed provides a better win%, but that said it's not significant enough to play LED over Tireless Tribe for consistency vs every other archetype in the format.Yes, it does happen. But it doesn't happen often enough to be relied upon. cracking LED to pay for DA and then activate Coliseum as your play on the first turn is bad since you won't usually have another way of discarding the 2 dredgers you used on DA. IMO DA should be used as the last draw spell to dredge the rest of your library since you're gonna be stuck with 2 dredgers in your hand without a way to dump them back in the yard (not unless you sac a narcomoeba to therapy yourself which probably not the best play if you want to disrupt combo decks). So it would be better to crack LED to activate Coliseum and them cast DA (hopefully for the win) and you could only do that if you're on the draw and didn't mulligan.

[Final Fortune]

Yes, it does happen. But it doesn't happen often enough to be relied upon. cracking LED to pay for DA and then activate Coliseum as your play on the first turn is bad since you won't usually have another way of discarding the 2 dredgers you used on DA. IMO DA should be used as the last draw spell to dredge the rest of your library since you're gonna be stuck with 2 dredgers in your hand without a way to dump them back in the yard (not unless you sac a narcomoeba to therapy yourself which probably not the best play if you want to disrupt combo decks). So it would be better to crack LED to activate Coliseum and them cast DA (hopefully for the win) and you could only do that if you're on the draw and didn't mulligan.

I don't think you understand the match up, if you're worrying about holding DA for Coliseum or holding 2 dredgers over worrying about Tendrils raping you like a helpless Japanese school girl then you've probably thrown the match. The point is LED accelerates the deck by a turn, and that turn is the difference between discarding the villain's threat and tripple penetration.

I agree LED is worse than Tireless Tribe vs. the field, but arguing LED doesn't increase the win% in game 1 vs combo is wrong.

[Izor]

Let's just agree that LED DOES of course enable the deck to go off one turn faster than LED-less lists. And that this will matter in about let's say one out of 20 games against combo, considering the facts that you first need to find all the required pieces in your opener as well as that your dredge chain could fizzle after the 1st Dredge, which will leave you helpless (only card in your hand will be dredger, and no dredger in the grave).

EDIT: I really don't like saying 'LED accelerates the deck by one turn'. That's just garbage. It enables a first turn kill in about 22% of games, not factoring in the occasions when your opponent has Force of Will or when your Dredge chain fizzles after the first Dredge. Outside of turn 1, which means already on turn 2 and all turns after that, LEDless is just as fast as LED. Just more consistent. That said, LED only matters in the combo matchup if your opponent could go off in the following turn and that turn would be the one after your first. Later, LEDless would race combo just as well.

As for the other argument that LED improves the control (Force of Will) matchup, that's obviously not true. Being maybe one turn slower won't matter for LEDless builds and the improved consistency is the only thing that really matters agains Control.

[Digital Devil]

Obvious much?

The post was in response to how it performs against Combo.
I was referring to the fact that Blue decks are more common than combo decks, and if your meta is combo-heavy you'd better play some Counter/Top shell. I don't think playing LED is worth the trade-off.

[SHABOOGS]

The only time LED improves MUs against combo decks is when you can win on turn 1 (since popular combo decks can also win on turn 1 with more consistency). And winning on turn 1 via LED is a very rare occurance. Once you get past the first turn, LEDless list can race combo fairly well.

[menace13]

Pff, this thread sounds like they dont own any LEDS.

[GoldenCid]

Pff, this thread sounds like they dont own any LEDS.

Oh yeah!! That's true!!

[Final Fortune]

The only time LED improves MUs against combo decks is when you can win on turn 1 (since popular combo decks can also win on turn 1 with more consistency). And winning on turn 1 via LED is a very rare occurance. Once you get past the first turn, LEDless list can race combo fairly well.

This is the last time I'm going to reply to this, because I think you're trolling, but you don't have to win on turn 1 with LED in order to beat combo, all you have to do is Cabal Therapy on turn 1 in order to buy yourself enough time to win. Breakthrough + LED is just better than Putrid Imp, pass on turn 1 vs combo and your win% is going to increase in the first case regardless of whether or not you dredge the nuts.

All it takes is simple gold fishing vs. TES to see what I mean.

[Izor]

Pff, this thread sounds like they dont own any LEDS.

Both versions, LED and LEDless are discussed in this thread. Some people play with the Diamonds, other play without them. Both have their arguments for their choice, and it should be noted that there is no wrong choice. Both versions are perfectly viable. It just depends on the metagame as well as on other factors. And personal preference of course.

Might be true that some people don't own the diamonds. But that might be people who want to play LEDless anyway, so don't feel the necessity to buy the LEDs for 200 bucks. And there are still people who own them, have played with both versions and have found LEDless to be better. And I daresay that that's the majority of LEDless players here, including myself.

I do however agree that those people who play LEDless for budget reasons and have never tester LEDs should not argue against them here.

@ Final Fortune:

I don't think he was trolling. He said that a first turn WIN is the only advantage LED builds have over LEDless, which is not really wrong. If you just add that LED has also a higher chance to therapy the opponent on turn 1, because it doesn't have to have CT in its opener but can also Dredge into it via LED shenanigans, the statement is perfectly true.

The whole thing is like Big Zoo vs standard Zoo. One shouldn't argue about the advantages. Everyone should know why he plays the one or the other version. No need to argue about that. That's at least my opinion.

[GoldenCid]

What i really no understand of this topic is why LEDless dredge is discussed here if already exist a topic focused on LEDless dredge!

Moreover, who has played LED version knows that rarely you win on t1. Indeed, rarely, about 1-5% of times. The main advange of LED beside the speed is the versatility of the card and main disadvantage is that it demands more skill of the pilot to choose the opening 7.

[SHABOOGS]

What i really no understand of this topic is why LEDless dredge is discussed here if already exist a topic focused on LEDless dredge!If I remember correctly, they decided to somewhat merge the two threads when dredge (in general) became a DTB (which was due to the performance of LEDless builds at that time).

[GreenHornet]

I actually started playing LEDless dredge for budget reasons, and did quite well with it. However, after acquiring a set of LED, I did extensive testing with them. Now I prefer LED's because of the raw explosiveness.
In my meta, there wasn't much in the line to stop the deck. Because it was essentially a turn faster I didn't die to random shenanigans.
I can see how some would prefer the deck without them, but like Izor said it's mostly personal preference and meta call.

[SHABOOGS]

I started with LEDless but I eventually tested LED in the past and also liked the "explosiveness" during game 1. But I had a more difficult time playing postboard games with LED compared to the LEDless build so I decided to go with LEDless since winning game 1 is normal for this deck (whether LED or LEDless).

[Dune Echo]

Weird LED/LEDless hybrid that won a local Legacy tournament:
http://yottaquest.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=67:legacy-tournament-results-and-top-8-decklists&Itemid=17

Dredge - 5th-8th Place – Joe Ross

Card Draw:
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Combo Kill:
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Control:
4 Cabal Therapy

Discard:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond

Dredge:
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

Mana:
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Recursion:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Ichorid

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Firestorm
1 Realm Razer

This was a T8 in a 33-man tournament, so it's another decklist to consider. It's an 11-land/11-dredgers version with an extreme amount of card draw to go up against control. It lacks the defensive capabilities of Tireless Tribe, but keeps the explosiveness of LED (by this, I mean in general) with the usefulness of Careful Study to sculpt a hand and draw into a Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, or Deep Analysis/LED. I'm not sold that it's optimal in any way, but it's interesting to see someone trying to effectively straddle the LED/LEDless fence for results. I'm not sure why he choose to run Realm Razer over Terastadon in the sideboard though.

I'm personally still most comfortable with the LED version of Dredge mainly because I couldn't find the consistency everyone was talking about with the LEDless version in the testing I did. All too often, I ran into mana screw trying to play WUB (Tribes, Careful Study, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy) versus the two-color, pre-sideboard version (LED, Deep Analysis, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy). (However, in all fairness, I was only testing with 12 lands versus the typical 14 for LEDless.)

[Izor]

I wouldn't consider that list a hybrid. That's how LED builds look today. Play the LEDs, 2 Deep Anals, one Sphinx and a FKZ, BUT aim for the best consistency with the remaining cards, which means more Careful Studies and so on.

The list seems good. Still proves what I don't like about LED lists. 11 Lands, 7 of which are rainbow...

What I think interesting is the 8 Leylines in the side. While I'm really sceptic, I must say that it could work. 11 lands won't be able to cast too much in games 2 and 3 anyway, so why not be proactive with leylines. But in the end, nothing for me. I don't know how far 3 CoVs can get in noamal metagames, which means metagames where each competitive deck has at least 3-4 pieces of graveyard hate in it's side.

Oh and Realm Razer is a good choice for metagames with a lot of Lands.dec. It really kills them so hard. Against Lands it's way better than Tera/Primus, against Stax it's faar worse, against Enchantress it's a bit worse. I'd usually play Tera, but Razer is a great anti-Lands card.

[SHABOOGS]

Mull to Leyline strategy would seem to be much easier since that list doesn't seem to heavily rely on having a gold land (which is a necessity during postboard games for other dredge builds). With that mana base, I think you could probably live with Coliseum as a land during postboard games with Chains and Studies and finish them off by activating Coliseum with LED. Seems like a different approach to fight hate but it seems to have worked since it made top 8.

[verf]

This was me. It was a 30 person tourney with my record being 3-1-1 going into the T8

I played
Round 1: Lands/Bant 2-1
Round 2: Combo Elves 2-1
Round 3: Junk 2-0
Round 4: Affinity 0-2
Round 5: Checked Standings and was able to draw into T8.

Lost in R1 of T8 to Mark Walker. 0-2

Everyone always talks about winning T1 with LED dredge. But that is RARELY the case. In fact I would say it is less than 5% of games. But LEDs make turn 2 wins a lot more frequent.

This tourney I started out very lucky with turn 2 wins every game 1 for the first 3 rounds. But then the luck tide turned and I mulled 9 times the last 4 games I played. Very disapointing but not totally unexpected with LED dredge.

The funnest Match was Round 1.
Game 1. I win the die roll, choose play and go,
Turn 1. Coliseum, Careful Study, discard 2 dredgers and pass.
His turn 1. "Ahh Dredge, I'm glad I kept this hand" dropped Tabernacle and passed.
Turn 2. Dredge 5, drop 2 LEDs, Breakthrough, crack both LEDs before passing priority, dredge a bunch, discard a bunch, flash back both DAs, DR FKZ, attack with 11 3/3's.

Game 3. We both mull to 5. I end up drawing cards until I can pitch a troll. Dredge up a moeba, 2 ichorids, a therapy, and a P.Imp. Discard troll and pass. Upkeep I bring back an Ichorid by removing an Ichorid (was actually a mistake on my part because i didnt see the P.Imp). Dredge up 2 bridges, a DR, lands, and a blue card. I sac Ichorid to flash back therapy target him and name StP. Didnt get it but I saw 2 Dueling Grounds. CRAP!! Now what do I do? I sac my 2 zombies that I got from Ichorid dying and the moeba to flashback DR and target the P.IMP in the yard. Then I discard a second therapy in my hand to the Imp and flash it back blowing away the 2 Dueling Grounds and his chances at winning. I think that has been the only time I have ever Dread Returned a Putrid Imp into play. A fun way to do something ridiculous in a format that is not so forgiving for these kinds of tricks.

The meta in this tournament was VERY strange. Again proving the randomness of the format. I saw at least 2 other dredge decks (all different versions), tons of Junk, and tons of Affinity type decks. I only saw a few Counterbalance, Goblins, or Merfolk. And saw 0 Zoo, ANT, or Reanimator. The graveyard hate of choice seemed to be either Nihil Spellbomb or Relic with fewer than expected Crypts or Leylines. And of course with all the Junk decks there were plenty of Extirpates running around too.

[Dune Echo]

Hey Joe,

I haven't played Legacy at YottaQuest yet (primarily play draft at YottaQuest or Illuminaudi), so I'm curious how your sideboard did with the metagame there? How did you end up sideboarding in the different matches?

Also, I much prefer the explosive feel of LED-based versions of Dredge. How did the Careful Studies work with the light mana base?

[ivanpei]

Here's a question for the LED-less guys. Why are we running the 15th land? Yes, yes consistency, yada yada. I am running the full "safe" version with no DR targets, 4 or everything etc. I hate the 2nd Dread Return, I feel its win more and would like to move the 2nd return to the board. However, I've been playing the 15th land in that slot for some time and I realized that what I missed was the 13th Dredger. I mean I always try to keep a hand with 1 discard outlet, 1 dredge, 1 land. We have 16 Discard outlets (4 Tribe, 4 Imp, 4 Careful, 4 Breakthrough), 15 lands and 12 dredgers. Am I missing something here? Why the 15th land over the 13th dredger? I understand that there are no comparable dredgers to the holy trinity, but shouldnt the 13th Dredger be under consideration? I'd like to see darkblast as the 13th dredger. You can cast it for 1 mana which is easily available to kill Dark Confidants, mana birds, steppe lynx/grim lavamancer etc. Most importantly you can kill your own Narcomoebas when you have no sac outlets for tokens. Thoughts?

[TUMBLES]

I haven't played in years and am not as familiar with the rules as I used to be.

Suppose a dredge player casts Deep Analysis with 2 dredgers in the graveyard. Which of the following are possible/legal:

-Dredge twice with the 2 in the graveyard
-Dredge for the first draw with 1 from the graveyard, and the second with one that was newly put in from the first dredge
-Draw a card, then dredge
-Dredge, then draw a card



So embarrassing having to ask this.

[DerFern]

Suppose a dredge player casts Deep Analysis with 2 dredgers in the graveyard. Which of the following are possible/legal:

-Dredge twice with the 2 in the graveyard
-Dredge for the first draw with 1 from the graveyard, and the second with one that was newly put in from the first dredge
-Draw a card, then dredge
-Dredge, then draw a card


all of this is legal. Dredge replaces any single draw, so for each card you WOULD draw you may chose to dredge instead. Therefore you can dredge "only" 4 cards with a Golgari Thug and hope to find a Golgari Grave-Troll in those 4 cards to dredge 6 for your second draw...

[SHABOOGS]

@ivanpei: You can certainly live with 14 lands. Lists with maindeck DR targets often run 14 lands and had success with it so I don't think it would drastically affect the decks consistency. Darkblast is a utility dredger that I keep in my 75 and I don't see any problems cutting a land for a 13th dredger (Darkblast) in your list.

[Izor]

Am I missing something here? Why the 15th land over the 13th dredger?

You are maybe missing that C.Coliseum can't cast a majority of spells, which is why most people would count only 11 Lands in a 15 land total list. And then again it's obvious why many people play the 15th land over the 13th Dredger. 11 Gold Lands, 12 Dredgers, 12 Draw Effects, 12 Discard Outlets (not counting Cabal Therapy and Breakthrough).

But as Shaboogs said, you can also live with 10+4 lands. Hands with Careful Study can be keepable without any Gold land.

[Anusien]

If you're that concerned, you should probably just do the math.

[ivanpei]

I'll test the 14 land and 13 dredger configuration compared to the 15 land 12 dredger combi. Thanks for clarifying regarding land + coliseum. Double land hands with coliseum are awesome, yes but that does not make it keepable without a dredger. I'll do the testing and post results.

[GoldenCid]

Weird LED/LEDless hybrid that won a local Legacy tournament:
http://yottaquest.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=67:legacy-tournament-results-and-top-8-decklists&Itemid=17

Dredge - 5th-8th Place – Joe Ross

Card Draw:
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Combo Kill:
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Control:
4 Cabal Therapy

Discard:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond

Dredge:
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

Mana:
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Recursion:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Ichorid

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Firestorm
1 Realm Razer



On this list. It's look good. I think he wanted to get rid from not having rainbow lands in hand intorducing Careful Study instead of tireless tribe. I'm not pretty sure if this is a mistake or not because study, despite atractive, digs for 2 cards that must be a dredger or you must to have a dredger in hand to explode it. This is very probable but what happen if you don't get dredgers in the first two? Or more important, you get dredgers and dredge some crap? The effect of CS is finished completely. While tribe can reccur the dredger as times as you want. Yes it needs white mana and hit a dredger but it effects is "continous" and provides a creture for DR!

[TnA_Will]

The funnest Match was Round 1.
Game 1. I win the die roll, choose play and go,
Turn 1. Coliseum, Careful Study, discard 2 dredgers and pass.
His turn 1. "Ahh Dredge, I'm glad I kept this hand" dropped Tabernacle and passed.
Turn 2. Dredge 5, drop 2 LEDs, Breakthrough, crack both LEDs before passing priority, dredge a bunch, discard a bunch, flash back both DAs, DR FKZ, attack with 11 3/3's.

Then I discard a second therapy in my hand to the Imp and flash it back blowing away the 2 Dueling Grounds and his chances at winning. I think that has been the only time I have ever Dread Returned a Putrid Imp into play.

I'm still having nightmares about this match... Seriously how does a turn 1 tabernacle and 2x dueling grounds in your opening hand not get there in either game.... Great dredging my friend and P. Imp being "returned" was priceless!!

[nothix9]

I usually play 15 lands 11 gold + 4 cephalid. When I know that my opponent doesn't have wasteland, I board out 1 gold land (tarnished citadel)

@shaboogs
you usually play with 2 DR targets right? iona, fkz

can you share your list again for this? including general sideboard strategy?

[SHABOOGS]

I usually play 15 lands 11 gold + 4 cephalid. When I know that my opponent doesn't have wasteland, I board out 1 gold land (tarnished citadel)

@shaboogs
you usually play with 2 DR targets right? iona, fkz

can you share your list again for this? including general sideboard strategy?Hey man, how's the eternal community there in Malaysia like? Yup, in my current 75 I have Iona and FKZ main and Woodfall Primus on the side as DR Targets. Here's the list *click* (http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1389&d=5) I played in my last tournament.

General strategy during postboard games depends on what kind of hate I think I'll be facing. If I think I'll see hate in the form of artifacts (crypt, relic, spellbomb), I take out 3 Careful Studies and put 3 Ancient Grudge. If I think I'll fight hate in the form of enchantments (Leyline and Wheel) I take out 4 Breakthroughs and a combination of either 1 Thug, 1 Tribe, 1 Therapy, or 1-2 DR Targets and bring in 3 Chain of Vapors and 3 Nature's Claim. Darkblast comes in for Thug whenever I come across annoying creatures (Bob, Jailer, Lackey, etc).

[Mizeri]

That "hybrid" list is the led ichorid list with careful study instead of unmask and sphinx instead of witness. He also moved a city of brass to a coliseum. I still think unmask is viable in the deck, one more of those cards for the combo matchup, and one more free discard card for yourself.

He also cut a low dredger for a third dr. I like that idea. I want to try 1 darkblast 2 thugs and 3 drs.

Question. How does trinisphere affect flashback?

[Joe_C]

Question. How does trinisphere affect flashback?

You would need to pay at least 3 colorless mana to play anything with flashback. Meaning deep analysis would cost you 2U and 3 life

[Mizeri]

Ok. Thats what i thought but i was hoping. Evoke still works tho?

[Izor]

Ok. Thats what i thought but i was hoping. Evoke still works tho?

Nope.

Evoke is still casting a spell. So the Trinisphere checks how much you payed for casting it, and if it was less than 3, you'll have to pay more.

[ivanpei]

@ shaboogs. It's great man. We're growing pretty well, an international bunch. I played in Australia, 2 pinays, a Russian and malaysians. But the numbers are still small though our skill and proficiency is pretty high. The problem is the $$$ considering our currency is 3 times smaller than the dollar. I know 2 of your buddies, owenzz and nothix9.

On topic, I'm sold on the 11th rainbow. What I still want is the 13 th dredger. Do you think an entomb as the 13th is ok. I plan to play maxed out everything and no dread returns. Or is this too safe?

[SHABOOGS]

Though having more dredgers is always good, the only problem is cutting another card on your main board which is already a tight list to begin with. Entomb isn't necessary IMHO. I'd rather squeeze another dredger than use entomb. TBH having 12 dredgers is more than enough to avoid mulliganing to oblivion. Most of the successful lists already have around 11-12 dredgers anyways so I think squeezing the 13th is too much.

[ivanpei]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm a safe player in general. I like the singleton Entomb. I mean I've never really needed dread return G1. Especially with no targets, a huge troll isn't a big deal. Usually overkill. I mean protection from sweepers is not really necessary. Anything that runs sweepers just dies to Ichorids. As for sac outlets to get zombies, I find 4 therapies enough. I prefer to have the GUARANTEED T1 outlet-> dredger play into t2 the nuts.

Entomb is like outlet + dredger in one. And if drawn, Entomb = Grave Troll and not a bad dredge for 3 like Darkblast. If you already have the outlet + dredger, it serves as somewhat of a Demonic Tutor for Ichorid/Bridge or the critical Cabal Therapy when you need it. I have 2 DR and a Terastodon in the board if I need the explosiveness against storm or something busted like Enchantress.

[SHABOOGS]

I see your point on playing entomb in dredge but the probability of drawing a single entomb in your opening is extremely low and most of the time it's a dead card once you dredge into it which is why I think a 13th dredger is better than a singleton entomb coz the 13th dredger doesn't need to be in your opening to be useful.

[Adan]

Not to mention that Land -> Entomb is simply worse than just keeping any opening 7 with a Dredger and go DrawDiscardDredge.

[ivanpei]

I understand that a 13th dredger is better than the 1 entomb. However that dredger is darkblast and it only dredges for 3, which IMO is not worth the spot. I want a good dredger and the only way is entomb. It's like Grave Troll 5#. I won't keep a hand with darkblast as my only dredger while I will keep a hand with entomb as my dredger. I accept that entomb has a very small chance of appearing in my opening had but I don't mind because I'd rather see entomb compared to Dreturn. I win most games with Zombies, Ichorids + hand disruption.

[igri_is_a_bk]

While we're briefly talking about Entomb, I have a list that I saved and was wondering if we could discuss its viability. It's the German list with a very slight change.

11 Gold Lands

4 Coliseum
4 Breakthrough
3 Brainstorm

4 GGT
4 StImp
3 Thug

4 Tribe
4 PImp
3 Entomb

4 Bridge
3 Ichorid
4 Narco
4 Therapy
1 DR

So it sacrifices 4 Careful Study, 1 DR, and 1 Darkblast for 3 Entomb and 3 Brainstorm. Brainstorm is stronger as a draw than CS, obviously. Entomb is stronger as a discard outlet than CS, IMO. Entomb also supports binning a DR so it can be reduced to one, and the extra dredger had to removed for space.

Counting Careful Study as a discard outlet and draw is bad in that it removes a draw spell when you just need the discard or vice versa. Running 11 cards in each category of the deck: draw, land, dredger, and discard should increase consistency, right?

I'm going to test after midterms are over at the end of the week.

[ivanpei]

Looks interesting. I quite like the inclusion of Entomb but I still prefer CS over brainstorm. The problem with brainstorm is that you have to shove cards back into your library after dredging. I generally dislike that. Also if you kept a dredger less hand but have CS, you can use CS to try and dig for a dredger. If you use brainstorm, and you hit nothing, you have no way to shuffle. I also dislike trimming the 4th Ichorid and the 4th Thug.

I like the entomb, brainstorm not so much. Might be very good though! Let us know your testing results.How about if you went UB, with fetch's and seas. Cut the Tribes for CS. Of course, the deck gets weaker postboard as you lose grudges and firestorm. Probably not worth it.

Also on the rainbow land discussion, I play this:

4 Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Undiscovered
1 Tarnished

I'm a big fan of undiscovered. Bolting myself multiple times against aggro is terrible. Too much aggro in the meta nowadays.

[SHABOOGS]

I agree with the discussion about Undiscovered > Tarnished in a meta infested with aggro which is why I am currently testing a list with Bloodghasts and Ichorids (since I'm already running Undiscovered Paradise) and so far the list feels consistent enough during several playtest and goldfish sessions. I'll test it in my next tournament and see if I can take the list to top 8.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I liked Bloodghast Dredge in the past, and went 6-0 with it in a tourney 1 year ago... [there were 7 Dredge Players, and I was the only one with ghasts]

http://deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=17094

It's a bad decklist if I think about it, nowadays ... I'd cut 1 Salvage, 2 Iona and a Dread Return for 4 Tribes, and then do other changes, but in the end, BG-Dredge is sure possible

[SHABOOGS]

I went 5-1 in the swiss and finished 5th in the playoffs with my first try at bloodghast/ichorid dredge (http://titanhobbyshop.com/2010/08/17/morris-tan-is-the-new-aquaman/) last year. I recently tweaked the list to maximize the consistency by also adding a playset of tribes, more gold lands, and dropping dakmor salvage.

[ivanpei]

I've never tried the bloodghast versions. So what's the advantage and disadvantage of playing the bloodghast versions? My initial thought is that the Bloodghast versions are faster? For example, T1 Outlet + dredger in to T2 the nuts. Dredge a bunch of Bloodghasts, then play a land and have them all back. Sack them to DR/therapy. So it's a turn faster compared to Ichorid right? I don't like it though. What if you don't draw Undiscovered and you get firespouted/EEd? Ichorids give you the better long game against control. Bloodghast versions seem better against combo when you need the dudes to sack straight away.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Bloodghast Dredge is around 1-2 turns SLOWER than normal Dredge, but it can outplay hate more easily [more threads, more possibilities to create zombie tokens, bloodghasts doesn't die EOT like Ichorids]... IMO it's more like weaken the Combo MUs, abd make the other [grindable-MUs] easier... -> against random tier 2 decks you will win anyways, with BG or non-BG Dredge.:laugh:

[ivanpei]

Ah I see, so you play Ichorids AND Bloodghast. I thought most lists play Ghast instead of Ichorids. If Bloodghasts serve as extra Ichorids, then I understand. Thanks for the explanation!

[Mizeri]

Ashen ghoul? This is a list I'm currently testing. Any input would be cool.

4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid collisieum
4 lion's eye diamond

4 ggt
4 stinkwind imp
3 thug
1 darkblast

4 narcomeba
4 bridge
4 cabal therapy
4 ichorid
4 pimp

4 breakthrough
3 deep analysis
3 dread return

1 eternal witness
1 flamekin zealot

It trys to always hit a da. Or a dr to keep going.

12 dredgers, 12 lands, and 11 draw spells. It seems decent, I'll let you know how testing goes. Also wanna try leylines in the sb. Void and sanctity I think? The white one.

[menace13]

Bloodghast Dredge is around 1-2 turns SLOWER than normal Dredge
IMO it's more like weaken the Combo MUs, abd make the other [grindable-MUs] easier:

Why is it slower?

[SHABOOGS]

@menace13: It's a turn slower if you have paradise as your gold land to cast your outlet turn 1 and coliseum as a draw spell. Or if you already played a land the turn you cast your draw spell and dredge up a bunch of bloodghasts.

@Mizeri: IMHO Coliseum isn't really considered a land in dredge since you can't use it to cast your permanent discard outlet (PImp and Tribe) and (more importantly) answer to graveyard hate (with the exception of chain of vapor and pithing needle). I treat it more like a draw spell than a land.

[HokusSchmokus]

How come that , once or twice every year, someone mentions the same bad dredge cards all over again and they are actually discussed? I mean serioulsy? Entomb was tested, and not implemented bc of it beeing a poor outlet/dead card like 2 years ago?
Same with Bloodghasts(wtf I hate this card!)
If I had known, that by originally posting the "german list"as you like to call it suc a discussion would break lose, I wouldn't have posted it at all.

[Mizeri]

I still want to try burning inquiry.. My sideboard is currently looking like
4 chain of vapor
4 unmask
1 ancestors chosen
1 terradon
4 firestorm
1 natures claim

I'll have to see if the 4th coll makes too much blue. I figured the leds might make up for it.

[menace13]

@menace13: It's a turn slower if you have paradise as your gold land to cast your outlet turn 1 and coliseum as a draw spell. Or if you already played a land the turn you cast your draw spell and dredge up a bunch of bloodghasts.
.
Gotcha, Thank you. The Paradise,Outlet,Coliseum hand would be a turn slower unless you had Study as the outlet since that can be cast with the Coliseum.

How often is the 2nd scenario relevant and what would be different from a list not using Ghasts that played a land and a draw spell? Couldn't it just as easily dredge up useless things like Imp/Tribe(in place of Ghasts)?

Ghast seems strong to me for a few reasons;
1. Giving a higher % chance to have Cabal flashback and Bridge tokens than with just Narco alone. Increase in chance to get DReturn up quicker as well.
2. Force opponent to blow hate faster.
3. Casting Bad aggro beats backup plan.

Entomb as a miser sounds decent and not as bad as some make it sound to be. It is a tutor for a deck that wants all of its cards in GY.
Was it even legal 2 years ago?

The 12 land LED list is so awkward to me. I always mull to less than 5 trying to find a rainbow land for Hate games 2 and 3(and never find a Bazaar ;P ). Sometimes I get FoWd/Dazed on my only outlet then Wastelanded and can not find remaining 11 lands game 1.

[SHABOOGS]

How often is the 2nd scenario relevant and what would be different from a list not using Ghasts that played a land and a draw spell? Couldn't it just as easily dredge up useless things like Imp/Tribe(in place of Ghasts)?Dredging up Bloodghasts with a draw spell would be basically the same as dredging up an Ichorid, you'll have to wait for the next turn to recur Bloodghasts with landfall if you've already played a land the turn you played your draw spell. The only difference: you could still recur bloodghasts on that same turn even if you've already played a land (ie. Dread Returning Sun Titan). I also have the same sentiments with your comments RE: Bloodghasts and LED.

[GoldenCid]

Ashen ghoul? This is a list I'm currently testing. Any input would be cool.

4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid collisieum
4 lion's eye diamond

4 ggt
4 stinkwind imp
3 thug
1 darkblast

4 narcomeba
4 bridge
4 cabal therapy
4 ichorid
4 pimp

4 breakthrough
3 deep analysis
3 dread return

1 eternal witness
1 flamekin zealot

It trys to always hit a da. Or a dr to keep going.

12 dredgers, 12 lands, and 11 draw spells. It seems decent, I'll let you know how testing goes. Also wanna try leylines in the sb. Void and sanctity I think? The white one.


Hey man!!! Your deck looks decent but you can make it look good. The key point i remark in your list is that you are overstimating DA. 3 is too much. 2 is ok but i'd play just 1. You don't want to see it when you look for a dredger or a bridge. 11 dredgers is ok! just cut darkblast in fovour of iona, shield of emeria.
And it's true, coliseum is a land but not a common land. i'm running 3 CC with 9 rainbow lands (city, gemstone and paradise). Also i'm running 2 tribes to fix my discard outlet.

[Mizeri]

I miss unmask too much. I cut darkblast, a dr and a collisium for 3 unmasks. Would lotus petals be worth it? I hate opening with pimp, I'd rather go off.

[ThomasDowd]

How come that , once or twice every year, someone mentions the same bad dredge cards all over again and they are actually discussed? I mean serioulsy? Entomb was tested, and not implemented bc of it beeing a poor outlet/dead card like 2 years ago?
Same with Bloodghasts(wtf I hate this card!)
If I had known, that by originally posting the "german list"as you like to call it suc a discussion would break lose, I wouldn't have posted it at all.


because it's the internet

[Klazam]

This is the deck i run. Comments? It's LEDless dredge.

MD
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid collisieum
2 Tarnnished citadel

4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
1 darkblast

4 narcomoeba
4 bridge from Below
4 cabal therapy
4 ichorid
4 putrid imp
3 Tireless tribe

4 breakthrough
3 Careful study
3 dread return

1 Sphinx of lost truths
1 flamekin zealot

SB
4 Leyline of the void
4 Firestorm (for Goblins)
4 Chain of vapor
1 Iona, Shield of emeria
1 Blazing archon
1 Angel of Despair

I'm thinking about cutting a citadel to play one more dredger. Also, how important is darkblast? I'm wondering should i just run more Thugs instead.

Thanks!

[Dune Echo]

Recent comment about Dredge in a recent SCG article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21314_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Its_Like_Having_Tiger_Blood.html):


Let me tell you what I think about Dredge in Legacy: it isn't very good. I understand why people play it; it's relatively cheap and reasonably powerful, plus many people have essentially or literally no graveyard hate. The thing is that the fact people don't pack graveyard hate doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good choice. I don't run any hate for Astral Slide or Dwarf Aggro, either. Why? Because they're not good decks in Legacy, much like Dredge.

Obviously, I ran the no-hate option myself and took a 1-2 loss in round three. While Dredge did make the Top 8, the deck seemed rather popular at the tournament and still only put one into the Top 16. It just. Isn't. Good. These Legacy events have been running for nearly two years, and the deck has a long history of failure after failure, much like my personal tournament results the past four months.

Based on pure statistics, he has a point. While my spreadsheet is out of date, Dredge has only placed 3rd for it's highest position as of 2/27/11:
Dredge LEDless 3rd 2/13/2011 Luca Passetti 84 players
Dredge LEDless 3rd 2/5/2011 Robert Swiecki
Dredge LEDless 4th 2/27/2011 Antonio Domínguez 25 players
Dredge LEDless 5th 2/19/2011 Alexander Krech 43 players
Dredge LEDless 5th 2/6/2011 Jose Ryan Alarcon 54 players
Dredge LED 7th 2/19/2011 Joe Ross 33 players
Dredge LEDless 7th 2/5/2011 Wolfgang Kandlbinder 28 players

I'm seriously considering decommissioning my Dredge deck until it gets some new toys to work with.

[menace13]

Recent comment about Dredge in a recent SCG article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21314_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Its_Like_Having_Tiger_Blood.html):

Based on pure statistics, he has a point. While my spreadsheet is out of date, Dredge has only placed 3rd for it's highest position as of 2/27/11:
Dredge LEDless 3rd 2/13/2011 Luca Passetti 84 players
Dredge LEDless 3rd 2/5/2011 Robert Swiecki
Dredge LEDless 4th 2/27/2011 Antonio Domínguez 25 players
Dredge LEDless 5th 2/19/2011 Alexander Krech 43 players
Dredge LEDless 5th 2/6/2011 Jose Ryan Alarcon 54 players
Dredge LED 7th 2/19/2011 Joe Ross 33 players
Dredge LEDless 7th 2/5/2011 Wolfgang Kandlbinder 28 players

I'm seriously considering decommissioning my Dredge deck until it gets some new toys to work with.

Dredge placed 15 at Kansas City, Caleb got 14th in San Jose, 15th at Indianapolis, and 7th in New Jersey, and going a little further back it got 16th at Nashville. It Can't be that bad if it places top 16 almost every SCG.

[gobblor]

This is the deck i run. Comments? It's LEDless dredge.

MD
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid collisieum
2 Tarnnished citadel

4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
1 darkblast

4 narcomoeba
4 bridge from Below
4 cabal therapy
4 ichorid
4 putrid imp
3 Tireless tribe

4 breakthrough
3 Careful study
3 dread return

1 Sphinx of lost truths
1 flamekin zealot

SB
4 Leyline of the void
4 Firestorm (for Goblins)
4 Chain of vapor
1 Iona, Shield of emeria
1 Blazing archon
1 Angel of Despair

I'm thinking about cutting a citadel to play one more dredger. Also, how important is darkblast? I'm wondering should i just run more Thugs instead.

Thanks!

I play a nearly Identical list except I cut darkblast (moved to board) and replaced with a thug as you mentioned. I also play 1 tarnished citadel and 4 tribes. I just like tribe so much, not only as a discard outlet which is obvious, but he is a damn good blocker too if you need to buy a turn or two. I could see adding another dredger instead, but I feel fine with the current amoutn of dredgers. You may want to consider ancient grudge for your SB also.

[voltron00x]

Dredge placed 15 at Kansas City, Caleb got 14th in San Jose, 15th at Indianapolis, and 7th in New Jersey, and going a little further back it got 16th at Nashville. It Can't be that bad if it places top 16 almost every SCG.

The problem is, it CAN be that bad. For one thing, it has only top 16'd a small portion of the total number of events, which is more numerous than you state here. And if you review Sylva's reports, Dredge consistently puts up a 40%-ish win percentage. Nothing seems to change that, not the overall meta make-up or the amount of GY hate. Certainly, when other GY decks are doing well (Reanimator, VV Survival) then Dredge becomes immediately a non-starter.

I think Dredge is an ok deck, but I can't balance that fact against the overwhelming results. And, if combo is getting more popular, it STILL seems like a bad time to play Dredge. You really need a field of CB/Top decks that aren't Dreadstill, or perhaps Junk or Taxes decks that have no GY hate. It's such a small subset where you can say, "THIS is the deck I want to be!" despite the fact that you can randomly be blown out by anyone that really wants to beat you.

I really, really want Dredge to be good. I freaking love the deck in Vintage. I've probably written more about Vintage Dredge than anyone, ever. And, I know I have unrealistic expectations for Dredge based on the Vintage options, which are so much better. Yet, I still can't get past the fact that Dredge very rarely does well, even though it is consistently played. Chalking it up to "bad players" or stuff like that is a major cop-out.

Anyway I didn't come into the thread to bad mouth your deck. I love Dredge. If I had any motivation in writing that section, besides sticking it to Max McCall and Max Brown (do all people named Max love Dredge?) it would be to motivate Legacy Dredge players to step it up and prove me wrong, so i can use my awesome Legacy Dredge foils.

[Klazam]

I play a nearly Identical list except I cut darkblast (moved to board) and replaced with a thug as you mentioned. I also play 1 tarnished citadel and 4 tribes. I just like tribe so much, not only as a discard outlet which is obvious, but he is a damn good blocker too if you need to buy a turn or two. I could see adding another dredger instead, but I feel fine with the current amoutn of dredgers. You may want to consider ancient grudge for your SB also.


How do i use grudges? What for?

Also, What do you think about unmask instead of firespout?

[HokusSchmokus]

How do i use grudges? What for?

Also, What do you think about unmask instead of firespout?

1. You use Grudges to blow up artifact hate.
This can be accomplished in two ways:
a) You hardcast it(rare)
b) You (slow-)dredge into it,therefor forcing your opponent to blow his relic/crypt bc otherwise you would just destroy it.
2. Firestorm is a fine card. I think Unmask is a bad card.
Why do I think that?
Well think about it: what do you want to pitch for it? While the effect is fine, the only card I can see myself really pitching for Unmask is well...Unmask.

[Gui]

@Ivanpei
How exactly does your list look like? You are trying to fit the 13th Dredger instead of a Dread Return, I take you are running 2 already, and 3 Careful, right?

I don't know exactly why you want to fit the 13-th dredger, I've been trying the list with 12 dredgers, one of which is Darkblast, and it's doing fine so far...

Also, against which kind of aggro are you having problems with Tarnished's bolts? How are Undiscovered Paradise's tests going?

[CabalTherapy]

Recent comment about Dredge in a recent SCG article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21314_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Its_Like_Having_Tiger_Blood.html):



Based on pure statistics, he has a point. While my spreadsheet is out of date, Dredge has only placed 3rd for it's highest position as of 2/27/11:
Dredge LEDless 3rd 2/13/2011 Luca Passetti 84 players
Dredge LEDless 3rd 2/5/2011 Robert Swiecki
Dredge LEDless 4th 2/27/2011 Antonio Domínguez 25 players
Dredge LEDless 5th 2/19/2011 Alexander Krech 43 players
Dredge LEDless 5th 2/6/2011 Jose Ryan Alarcon 54 players
Dredge LED 7th 2/19/2011 Joe Ross 33 players
Dredge LEDless 7th 2/5/2011 Wolfgang Kandlbinder 28 players

I'm seriously considering decommissioning my Dredge deck until it gets some new toys to work with.

Last month, I finished second.
http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiabE75q6

[PhantomLotus]

I think Dredge is an ok deck, but I can't balance that fact against the overwhelming results. And, if combo is getting more popular, it STILL seems like a bad time to play Dredge. You really need a field of CB/Top decks that aren't Dreadstill, or perhaps Junk or Taxes decks that have no GY hate. It's such a small subset where you can say, "THIS is the deck I want to be!" despite the fact that you can randomly be blown out by anyone that really wants to beat you.

Okay, so are there specific matches/deck strategies that Dredge is typically losing to when it gets into the top 8/16? Using that as a litmus test can reduce bad play as a factor, and we can focus on changes that allow it to perform better in those games.

[Benobi]

Okay, I'm still getting used to LED-less Dredge, so a question for more experienced Dredge players; how do you sideboard if you don't know what kind of hate your opponent is using? I know that each archetype is supposed to typically rely on specific hate cards, but I keep losing games because I expect my opponent is playing Relic and bring in Ancient Grudge, only to find that he's playing Leyline of the Void or Ravenous Trap, or maybe he hasn't sideboarded hate at all and I've weakened my deck by filling it with dead cards.

Is it right to sideboard potentially-dead cards based on what you *think* your opponent is playing, or is it better to sideboard in cards with potential alternate uses like Chain of Vapor?

Thanks in advance for the advice!

[SHABOOGS]

I usually read other deck threads and top 8 lists so that I have an idea of what kind of hate a particular archetype brings in. I think the most difficult archetype to predict the kind of hate they'd bring would be Mono Black decks (Sui/Gate) since they have access to almost all graveyard hate cards. What I usually do during game 2 (against mono black) is board in chain and claims so that I could deal with anything they bring in.

[Gui]

How do people usually side against Enchantress, ins and outs?

[Izor]

How do people usually side against Enchantress, ins and outs?

-4 Careful Study, -1 Darkblast, -1 something (Thug, Therapy or whatever I feel like), +4 Nature's Claim, +1 Ray of Revelation, +1 Terastodon

Just slap in all your enchantment removal as well as a Terastodon/Woodfall Primus and take out Studies and some stuff you don't need.

[Gui]

-4 Careful Study, -1 Darkblast, -1 something (Thug, Therapy or whatever I feel like), +4 Nature's Claim, +1 Ray of Revelation, +1 Terastodon

Just slap in all your enchantment removal as well as a Terastodon/Woodfall Primus and take out Studies and some stuff you don't need.

And how effective is that?
I didn't have the chance to playtest against it yet, but from what I read it's a tough match, and I'm concerned about it, since I always see them around here.

[Vx MurDok xV]

Ok guys this is the best build for my meta and I need to know what you guys think.

Land: 10
3x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
3x City of Brass

Critters: 24
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Nacromobea
3x Ichorid
2x Phantasmagorian - (better imo cause you can use while dredge, it's free and the only thing to stop it is stifle)
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sun Titan - (Better than witness cause it's a beast and it puts the stuff directly into play, i.e Coliseum)
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells: 26
4x Bridge from Below
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Breakthrough
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Careful Study
2x Deep Analysis

It will usually combo out on turns 2 - 4, and I have had it combo on turn 1.

[Wakkarr]

Ok guys this is the best build for my meta and I need to know what you guys think.

Land: 10
3x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
3x City of Brass

Critters: 24
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Nacromobea
3x Ichorid
2x Phantasmagorian - (better imo cause you can use while dredge, it's free and the only thing to stop it is stifle)
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sun Titan - (Better than witness cause it's a beast and it puts the stuff directly into play, i.e Coliseum)
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells: 26
4x Bridge from Below
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Breakthrough
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Careful Study
2x Deep Analysis

It will usually combo out on turns 2 - 4, and I have had it combo on turn 1.

Lotus Petal seems very bad when you only run 10 lands. You would be better maxing out on city of Brass and Coliseum, as well as 1-2 Tarnished Citadel.

You have too many dread return targets. Sphinx of Lost Truths + Flamekin works best for maximising speed, while a single Iona/Angel of Despair solves problem. So I'd cut Sun Titan. Once you resolve a dread return you really should have just won, so getting a Sun Titan which takes time to get anywhere near they payback of an Iona/Sphinx is pretty poor.

I am not a fan of Phantasmagorian in any sense. You need to resolve a discard outlet, or get to 8 cards and discard it. Putrid Imp is just better, it gives you a creature in play which is relevant for Cabal Therpy/Dread Return, and is much better if you have a slow draw, since you can keep discrding over multiple turns. Playing a set will also make your Ichorids better.

The LED vs LEDless discussion seems to still be going, but most of decks putting up results dont play LED, it simply isnt necessary, since playing more lands increases consistancy and allows to to bait graveyard hate much more easily in G2/3, since LED is the definition of an 'all in' card.

[CabalTherapy]

And how effective is that?
I didn't have the chance to playtest against it yet, but from what I read it's a tough match, and I'm concerned about it, since I always see them around here.

I usually would board: -1 Dark Blast, -2 Careful Study, -2 Breakthrough, + 4 Nature's Claim, +1 Terastodon
I can test my Dredge against a friend of mine, which isn't the best enchantress player. So my MU is about 70%.
You must be very lucky with Cabal Therapy.

[2nd_lawl]

Crossposting this from my blog:
Just Got back from the SCG Open in Edison Finished 7-2 In the legacy(Playing Dredge w/ LED & sun titan), Missing top 16 on breakers(finished 19th overall).

The Dredge Deck we(me & Mark Hornung) Played was totally sweet, here's the list first and then I will talk about some of the card choices and interactions.

Creatures
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 Sun Titan
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Woodfall Primus

Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below

Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Instants
1 Firestorm

Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return

Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Firestorm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Serenity
1 Stormtide Levithian
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

So Obviously the first card that looks totally bizarre is the Sun Titan in the slot where most people just have Sphinx of Lost Truths. Sun titan does pretty much everything sphinx does and more:
a) With a mana floating/untapped land it brings back cephalid coliseum to draw 3 discard 3.
b) With no Mana floating and a Deep Analysis in the yard it brings back Lion's Eye diamond to empty your hand and flashback Deep Analysys(leaving you U to dread return titan again, after therapying it away of course, and getting coliseum, if you are digging for FKZ to win instantly)
c) Recurs Serenity out of the board every turn to get rid of annoying crap like Moat, Solitary Confinement, Ensnaring Bridge, Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Thopter/Sword Combo, the entire Affinity deck, the entire MUD deck etc.
d) Recurs Hapless reasearcher to dredge more if you have no mana and no deep analysis in the yard.
e) Recurs Stinkweed Imp to Block and kill Emrakul if Necessary or any other annoying flyer (killed a fully leveled Coralhelm Commander at the tournament)
f) In a situation that comes up where you have 2 Bridges 2 dread returns and FKZ but are 1 zombie short of killing them(because they have blockers or whatever) Recurring Sun titan + any creature and then dread returning again for FKZ will net you 1 additional Zombie. This doesn't seem like a huge deal but it came up for me in a game against a deck with deed which made the VERY relevant despite the fact that I had alot of zombies. You can also do this if you have exactly enough Zombies to do lethal but want to therapy them first to play around a counterspell.

Anyway a non-led and very very vanilla Looking Dredge Deck top 8'd so I would perhaps be wary of playing the deck within the next couple weeks. The whole thing with dredge is that as soon as people see it around, it ceases being good. Since nearly Everyone is on Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, Boujouka Bog, or Loaming Shaman these days, Leyline of Sanctity should be the Anti-Hate Card of choice for your sideboards. For any Given non-combo deck I usually Sideboard 3 Needles and 4 Leylines + Alter my DR Package, I Generally Side out LED + Deep Analysis. This Gives you good "coverage" in the dark although obviously its cold to Leyline. If people are playing leyline in significant numbers you cant really fight it, you just have to play a different deck, you really need to pick your spots. I felt like I had a good read on sunday and it panned out (for the most part, my losses were to Cephalid Breakfast, which is probably just a bad match-up, and to a Team America Deck where I just ran Badly Game 1, and was "forced" to keep a good hand without anti-hate game 2 and he just had the Nihil Spellbomb to kill me) so we will see where the metagame heads, but it looks like the target should be on Various kinds of Junk/Midrange decks, NO Bant with no countertop, and "hand combo" decks like High Tide and decks trying to Emrakul people.

May Your Dredge 6 Be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return

-Max Brown

[2nd_lawl]

Sorry for all the Deleted Posts, Obviously The Forum is pretty screwed up now, as the only way to see new posts is to view the thread in reverse order. Pretty annoying.

[Rath]

Yeah the forum has been giving me grief as well.

Quick question... I am still debating witness vs. angel of despair in the MD as a "catch-all" answer to randomness in G1 (its my only dread return target other than GGT and FKZ). My DR targets in the side-board currently are Chosen, Terastadon (debating switching to Primus) and Iona. Any suggestions about the MD target? This is in a non-LED dredge list.

[Gui]

I usually would board: -1 Dark Blast, -2 Careful Study, -2 Breakthrough, + 4 Nature's Claim, +1 Terastodon
I can test my Dredge against a friend of mine, which isn't the best enchantress player. So my MU is about 70%.
You must be very lucky with Cabal Therapy.

What I was considering is that Enchantress' usual grave hate is Wheel of Sun and Moon and Groundseal. Neither begin the game in the battlefield, and you are able to dredge before they come, so I think that maybe we should just go Ray of Revelation + DR target against them, and try to dredge them before they cast their hate. Also, I see that some lists uses 1 hate and tutor for it, which gives us one more turn to dredge.
So, my doubt is: Is Nature's Claim really necessary against it?

For the record, I'm not considering cutting Claim from board, I always pack 4 of it, just am wondering if it is the best option, say, if I have enough slots to carry 3 ray SB.

[CabalTherapy]

What I was considering is that Enchantress' usual grave hate is Wheel of Sun and Moon and Groundseal. Neither begin the game in the battlefield, and you are able to dredge before they come, so I think that maybe we should just go Ray of Revelation + DR target against them, and try to dredge them before they cast their hate. Also, I see that some lists uses 1 hate and tutor for it, which gives us one more turn to dredge.
So, my doubt is: Is Nature's Claim really necessary against it?

For the record, I'm not considering cutting Claim from board, I always pack 4 of it, just am wondering if it is the best option, say, if I have enough slots to carry 3 ray SB.

That's a good question.
I'm running currently one Ray in my SB, so I'm always going for the Claims in this matchup.
On the play, Enchantress can play these cards on Turn2, while you're just looking at you Tribe/Imp.
Enchantress has no clock, so draw and at the end of turn destroying the hate is a good play.
And then you have the space, you need, to just go off with you Coliseum or Breakthrough and punch Enchantress in tha face.

[CabalTherapy]

I hope that this post won't been seen as a dobblepost. :wink:
It's just a little report about a tournament I played today. (38 people)

My current list is:
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Undead Warchief
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Terastodon

The "big" change since the last tournament is the Iona in the MB. And it was the right decision.
(Just test this list and you will be very surprised, how consistent and fast this list is. :wink:)

Round1 against Belcher
The first game I can win with Ichorids because my opp just fizzles. The next two matches he plays first turn Belcher dealing enought damage and playing EtW for 14 token.
Mhmmhmhm...
1:2
0-1

Round2 against Aluren
He has a bad hand and I just win on turn 3 returning a Iona (green) with tokenbackup. In the second match he casts Aluren and I just putted 2 Imps, 2 Tribes, 1 Narcomoeba on the field eot while he has no creatures in hand. As he sees this, he scoops.
2:0
1-1

Round3 against SpiralTide
SpiralTide is a realy nice deck, but clearly too slow to deal with Cabal Therapy and Ichorids. I won with Iona (blue) and in the second match with regular token beatdown.
2:0
2-1

Round4 against Show and Tell feat. Natural Order
I must go for the mulligan to 5. I am on the play, going for a Therapy targeting myself (Golgari Thug). Later on I can cast a Breakthrough and find enough shit to kill him. In the second match he just played 2nd turn Show and Tell > Emrakul. :eyebrow:
I won the final match using a small space in round 4 and created too many token.
2:1
3-1

Round5 against Painter
Again a combo.dec. I can beat him down to 0 life, while he has Painter and Grindstone in play but no mana to activate the stone. In game 2 he is on 5 life, I have 10+ token and he just topdecked a Painter and activate his Grindstone (what a lucker).
In the last game I just destroyed my opp, wasting him his artifact lands with Ancient Grudge and disrupting his hand to just one land. Finally I went for Terastodon, destroying my own three lands and he scooped.
2:1
4-1

Round6 against CounterTopFoundry
He claimed that he has got a good MU in this game and got destroyed by Dredge in two matches.
Using exactly one round (it is like an open window for a thief) I resolved in game 1 Breakthrough and in game 2 Coliseum and disruped him so badly. Iona (white) was a the winner in the second match, while he had EE and Academy Ruins.
2:0
5-1

Off course I have the weakest Oppscore of the three players with 15 points. :cry:
So 3rd place. (Honour and glory?^^)

[Izor]

It's just a little report about a tournament I played today. (38 people)

My current list is:
Snap

The "big" change since the last tournament is the Iona in the MB. And it was the right decision.
(Just test this list and you will be very surprised, how consistent and fast this list is. :wink:)

Congratz on your finish.

I agree with the choice of Iona for the main deck. I have her as a one-of in my main for some weeks now and I've never looked back. She's just too good, even though I usually don't want to flood my main deck with DR Targets.

Your list is exactly the list I've been playing recently, just +1 Careful Study. (Yes, It's 61 cards for now as I don't know what to cut. But it works decently).

[ivanpei]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37283

WOW @ this decks tech. It's just insane how different this deck is. It's so different, I don't know if it is actually any good. Any thoughts?

[HokusSchmokus]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37283

WOW @ this decks tech. It's just insane how different this deck is. It's so different, I don't know if it is actually any good. Any thoughts?

I cannot figure out what the use of emrakul is.Am I just blind or is it just useless?Also,I cant imagine how this deck is any better than normal lists,havent tested it though.

[Muradin]

The list sucks and Emrakul is there against Painter Grindstone only. Though, Progenitus would probably be a better choice here, as after getting your library milled and shuffling Progenitus back in as last card you should definitely be winning the following turn. Nevertheless I find both cards to be quite useless and a waste of good sideboard space.

[Felidae]

Well he could Stifle Emrakuls triggern and then DR it (or maybe it's his 1off solution against SnT). However I'd certainly agree with you: this list sucks.
On a side note I got a quick question for CabalTherapy: When do you side in the Undead Warchief (he kinda reminds me on Homura, Human Ascendant ) ?

[CabalTherapy]

Well he could Stifle Emrakuls triggern and then DR it (or maybe it's his 1off solution against SnT). However I'd certainly agree with you: this list sucks.
On a side note I got a quick question for CabalTherapy: When do you side in the Undead Warchief (he kinda reminds me on Homura, Human Ascendant ) ?

Well, while Iona is in my MB I have one SB slot for something else. I decided to fill it my something that is fun and maybe can be a huge surprise in a Dredge mirror^^. It is more fun than serious but... xD

[I am the brainwasher]

I still play the standard much consistent LED-less list with no DR-targets and I am pretty happy with it, still.

My current sb is as follows:

1 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revealation
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Dread Return
3 additional Dread Return targets, mainly those: Iona, Terastodon, Realm Razer, Stalking Vengeance, Massacre Wurm

It really depends on the meta to choose the 3 additional Dread Return targets and to be honest I never missed the Firestorms (which I simply dont own). The last two tourneys I played the deck I made 2nd and a more mediocre 2:2 due to a bit of misplay and bad luck (variance would be a bit more accurate). I can just recommend to test out Massacre Wurm which really helps in the Goblin, Elves and Mirror. Hes just a I-come-into-play-and-directly-win-muhaha in all of those MU and I think he replaces the Firestorms pretty good (and leaves more space for other cards). A nice tech also IMO is Aura Thief which should directly win the horrible Enchantress MU, spotted it in the TOP8 of SCG's (where a really weird list made 9th).
I completely agree with Stalking Vengeance beeing one of ther most impressive cards against so much problem cards of the deck; nearly so hard that I can see cutting Terastodon completely from the board, depending on the meta.
I was wondering how good Null Rod, Leyline of Sanctity and Pithing Needle turn out as Anti-hate cards and I think that it really cant hurt to test that out intensively, maybe ending up with Leyline for Trap, Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Needle/Null Rod for Relic and Affinity. The upside would be a better Tendrils based Storm MU (ANT; TES; DDFT) but also a lack of consistency which I really dislike in such a deck.
Greetings

[Ziilot]

What should we do against affinity? It's so much faster deck than LEDless dredge.

[Muradin]

Board in 4 Ancient Grudge and rape them? No, seriously Raffinity is a quite bad matchup for dredge, but still very winnable with Grudges and the deck's sheer power.

[Anusien]

I don't agree that Affinity is a bad matchup. They have less disruption than even Zoo. The only trick is not laughing hysterically when you draw a double Ancient Grudge hand.

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't agree that Affinity is a bad matchup. They have less disruption than even Zoo. The only trick is not laughing hysterically when you draw a double Ancient Grudge hand.

Quoted for truth. Raffinity is not a bad matchup. Slower than Ichorid, no or almost no burn, almost no Disruption, all artifacts, I don't see the problem.

[edgarps22]

So let em get this straight, a new list shows up, is 1 of 2 Dredge lists that made top 16 in the past 4 major tournaments, and you dismiss it that it sucks? Ok I understand you might not like Bloodghast, but did you look at the tech this deck runs to make them FAR stronger than Ichorid, like the Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, which is wasteland proof by the way, as well as the Undiscovered Paradises that work very good? How about the Brainstorms to seal the game which are more easily played with this manabase, which seems far more resilient to the Legacy metagame atthe moment.

Another side note, I agree the Emrakul had my head rather confused, but with switching to a Stifle package, it makes sense, especially with 3 Brainstorm, 4 Careful Study, and mana that actually sticks around to cast the Stifle. I say this is obviously doing better than the rest of the lists because it placed, and had a few awesome new tech pieces like Aura Thief. Now there was some awesome new tech for the Enchantress matchup, previously near unwinnable once they get the lock out, since Iona does not stop them. It actually drew him a match in the tournament, I saw that portion of the coverage and heard about it, where he stole somewhere in the number of 17 enchantments and swung for game.

I personally like Tireless Tribe over the Trickster Mage, so it can be used immediately, but that I think is a personal call on what discard outlets you think are best. But this list looks fine, it looks solid, and doesn't rely on Ichorid making it to an Upkeep, and doesn't require a certain amount of black creature cards to be in the deck because of that, and is built to abuse the landfall mechanic of Bloodghast, which by the way IS faster than Ichorid, as in you can sac them to produce tokens before laying a land, cast draw spells to dredge more, landfall them all back in, sac them all again to Dread Return, Therapy etc, and then just win now, whereas Ichorid can only be sacrificed once a turn. Also I have been testing a similar list on my own, but without the tech of Oboro and Brainstorm, and it is consistent, I can only imagine this being more consistent, and probably faster, since Brainstorm is a massive amount of dredging for 1 blue.

Please don't dismiss new ideas, especially new ideas that place in tournaments, just because it isn't what you think it should be. Test it, try the list out, it might surprise you.

As for dealing with Affinity, this I have a LOT of experience with, it is my roommates pet deck. Ancient Grudge kind of works, Null Rod and Energy Flux work better ... a LOT better. And if you use this kind of manabase, 2 mana is not hard, so maybe Null Rod is best, which by the way, he had 3 of them. Also with Tezzeret Affinity, of which we have a much better game against (no Ravager), winning the last Open, I imagine it will gain in popularity, and I know Null Rod would basically slow the deck down to the point where we can win.

[Izor]

I don't agree that Affinity is a bad matchup. They have less disruption than even Zoo. The only trick is not laughing hysterically when you draw a double Ancient Grudge hand.

Well, I think that the Affinity matchup is actually not as easy as you think. I own and play both decks for some time now, and that means a lot of playtesting. Well, I play that matchup with my brother several times a week so to say.

The key in this matchup is Ravager. If they stick it, you usually lose. That card is a really dangerous and fast clock, combined with an easy and reusable way to nuke all your Bridges at will. I'm afraid there's no way Dredge can reliably race Ravager plus gas without Bridges. That said, Atog and Thopter Foundry (if played) are the next best cards against us.

If they don't stick Ravager, you usually win. Pre board, I'd say 85/15 for them if they have the Ravager, 80/20 for you if they don't. Hint: Therapy that beast away ! (which can be hard if they drop it turn 1 or 2)

Post board it's a bit easier due to Ancient Grudges and maybe Firestorm. But you should never underestimate them. Etched Champion is another threat, which isn't hit by Grudge/Firestorm. Don't let that guy get Modular counters. You might say that you can therapy away everything before it gets dangerous, but remember that Affinity usually has 3-4 pieces of grave hate in form of artifacts to slow you down.

Post board, The match is pretty even, with a slight advantage for Dredge.

Affinity is becoming a real powerhouse. It can constantly beat everything but Storm.

[I am the brainwasher]

"Post board, The match is pretty even, with a slight advantage for Dredge.

Affinity is becoming a real powerhouse. It can constantly beat everything but Storm. "

True in all points IMO. Its NOT an easy one.

In general, I think that judging the Top 16 list unworthy is a bit overeager. I havent playtested it so I said its weird (which it is, no offense included). I wouldnt be too surprised that its not bad at all afterall. Another important factor is that the American Meta is more than slightly different from the meta in other countries. Watching SCG'S live stream, I heard the following sentence: "GY hate is so much overrated in Legacy." I mean, woot?!? This wasnt ment for kidding, it was ment srsly. Seems like GY-based decks arent such a big part of the meta over there, havent analyzed the sb's to see how much they put into their sb for GY-hate. Not saying that inconsistent lists can win easier, just sayin... .

[Felidae]

@edgarps: Speaking from my point of view I really don't like the list because it lacks the consistence that a regular list (like the one CT posted) has accomplished around the time. We have tested Brainstorm as well as Bloodghast + Paradise and we came to the conclusion that they are weaker then Citadell and Breakthrough / Study. Both aren't new ideas and browing those 1200 pages you'll find them for sure, as well as there pros/ cons.
On a sidenote I just finished 1st at a small local tournament,beating Spanish Inquisition, WW and Dreadstill , while losing to Team America.

[Gui]

@CabalTherapy
I like very much the standard list, which is the one you play without Iona, and I was going to try Iona as only DR target. Nice to know it worked =)

@I am the brainwasher
Nice options of DR targets there ^^

I like Aura Thief tech, although I don't know how impressive it is against enchantress yet, since they will still have their lands, enchanted with their accelerators, and probably their argothians as well... we still need to be faster than their hate too...

Massacre wurm seems fun, although you could probably use Havoc Demon there and kill everything, even with lords online ^^

[Gui]

Sorry, was testing to see whether my message vanished.

[Anusien]

Blake McCracken (UNLEASH MCCRACKEN) didn't even run Ravager. Or Atog. Or Thopter Foundry.

They can kill your Bridges, but they can't beat a giant Troll.

[Hitman82]

Serenity beats Affinity and Enchantress.

[Mizeri]

That dredge deck was doing something right. I was also at the 5k in dallas. Did pretty bad running parcher dredge. Led list with hypnos. I really don't like how the led ichorid list seems to beat itself before the game starts. I know I'm gonna shuffle ujp the bloodghast list..

[Digital Devil]

I'm playing a 4x Ichorid/3x Careful Study/1 DR target build without LED - I already play 4x Breakthrough, and I was considering to maximize Study, too. Do you think going down to 3x Ichorids is an acceptable choice? Also, since Survival took the banhammer, I felt like 2x Ray of Revelation in sb were unnecessary: should I play a singleton Ray and make room for the 4th Ichorid, in case my opponent plays StP/I need to slowroll my opponent (or in case my only maindeck DR target, Iona, is a suboptimal choice in a given matchup)?

P.S. - Hypothetically speaking, with the exception of fast decks (Burn/Storm/Belcher/Spring Tide), should I take out Breakthrough, g2/g3? Those are, for obvious reasons, the most difficult games to play: since a good hand should have a discard outlet, a dredger and a (gold) land, and g2 is sometimes a war of attrition, isn't the ability to sculpt your hand and not be totally cold to a Relic worth the trade-off of losing a fast and cheap gamebreaker? I'm simply asking this because of Gaddock Teeg and because sometimes I hate when my only discard outlet is a Breakthrough, and taking mulligans will only worsen the situation. Thanks in advance.

[ivanpei]

Anyway, 3 Dredge in SCG LA T16. Voltron, time to Sleeve up that foil dredge deck. I'm gonna do the same too. :)

[menace13]

Anyway, 3 Dredge in T16. Voltron, time to Sleeve up that foil dredge deck. I'm gonna do the same too. :)

3 in top 16 and 1 in top 8... get your trolls ready,Elias.

[Gui]

What do you think about their lists?

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833

The T8 one is the one that looks more like the one most regularly played, but runs only 9 gold lands, with paradise, and cuts Therapy instead of Study, probably because he needs the blue discard to work, since his 13 lands can produce U...
Also, 4 Ichorids... is that necessary?

[PhantomLotus]

What do you think about their lists?

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833

The T8 one is the one that looks more like the one most regularly played, but runs only 9 gold lands, with paradise, and cuts Therapy instead of Study, probably because he needs the blue discard to work, since his 13 lands can produce U...
Also, 4 Ichorids... is that necessary?

4 Ichorid seems excessive, but he is running 3 Thugs which is 1-2 more than I usually run. You'll see 4 Ichorid in Vintage because it's a free creature against Workshop decks, but it's pretty unusual in Legacy Dredge. I don't particularly like it because they end up eating your black dredgers too soon (or else just sit in the yard). If I've got Ichorid in the yard, I want him coming out every turn. But what do I know, I didn't Top8 a SCG event with the deck ;)

[I am the brainwasher]

I wouldnt overestimate dredge in general atm and to be honest, the last SCG top16 is maybe the most meaningless I've seen in a long time. IMO it just shows up that all kind of rather unusual decks can perform pretty well due to the fact that a lot of people do play those non-standard decks and that it is really easy for those to sneak through unprepared opponents and more important, sideboards.
When you cant hate dredge (and even if you can, but with not enough cards) you simply loose against experienced players and looking at the boards of famous players like bertoncini, many dont care much about the opposing graveyard AT ALL. Cephalid Breakfast made easily top 8 which is just nuked by GY-hate, plus 3 dredge decks and this has a reason, just sayin'.
As long as the big variety of the meta continues and it isnt clear against which deck to prepare for and build a solid sb, its maybe just the best time for having success with Dredge. I am aware that Dredge is quite powerful, thats the reason I play it by myself here and there on tourneys, but at least when more players recognize that a lot of decks just go completely bonkers without the right hate (like Dredge and also Affinity), there will be more answers and more players who do know how to rip apart the opposing deck quite effective.
To make that clear, I am a huge fan of the way legacy is going right now, but just looking at Top 16 doesnt imply that all the decks you see really "deserve" their place there outside this particular event. The best example might be the 8th round where Painted Stone won against UG-Madness, jeez, did anyone saw that? I still cant believe that he lost that and Painted Stone took it down in the end, just my 2 cents.
Greetings!
PS: That new card which was presented by wizards from New Phyrexia (I would have liked Mirrodin Pure a lot more) looks decent as a DR target, doesnt it?

[Sims]

PS: That new card which was presented by wizards from New Phyrexia (I would have liked Mirrodin Pure a lot more) looks decent as a DR target, doesnt it?

I haven't seen it, could you link or at least tell those of us who have been unable to look it up at work what said card is?

[I am the brainwasher]

Since I am a complete computer noob and have no clue about showing pics here, I just describe it:

5WW

Legendary Creature - ???

Other creatures you control get +2/+2.
Creatures your opponent controls get -2/-2.

5/7




Dunno the creature type and name, p/t should be correct.

[PhantomLotus]

Not as good as FKZ since it doesn't give haste. And that's really the only slot it fits in. The other DR targets have utility (blow stuff up, gain life, lockout, etc.) that Elesh Norn doesn't quite have. -2/-2 doesn't really do much against most of Legacy when compared to our other options, and if it does kill some of their dudes -- there go our Bridges.

I'm with you, though -- one of the fun things about each new set for a Drege player is looking for new DR targets :)

[voltron00x]

Anyway, 3 Dredge in SCG LA T16. Voltron, time to Sleeve up that foil dredge deck. I'm gonna do the same too. :)

Wouldn't you actually say that sleeving up Dredge after a top 16 with 5 graveyard combo decks is a bad idea? I think I would... its pretty likely that people will have more hate for the next couple events.

Anyway, I'm glad the deck did well; I've always thought it was better than the 40% win percentage it kept posting. I ran graveyard hate in my Elves deck last weekend in anticipation of Dredge.

Still, there are some weird design decisions in a few of those lists. Some have too few lands, and Bloodghast just seems worse to me than Ichorid most of the time in Legacy, but I suppose it depends on the make-up of the metagame to some extent.

[Sims]

Since I am a complete computer noob and have no clue about showing pics here, I just describe it:

5WW

Legendary Creature - ???

Other creatures you control get +2/+2.
Creatures your opponent controls get -2/-2.

5/7




Dunno the creature type and name, p/t should be correct.

That's not bad, it's like Crovax on steroids but it effects all your creatures instead of white/non-white. There's the obvious "it kills our bridges" argument but if you're reanimating that thing, you should be at a point that your bridges don't matter. At what point though are we going to want this? I'm seeing the same problem with this guy that I see with Massacre Wurm... they both clear the way (Wurm depending on the match might win you the game outright from time to time) but assuming this is in the board.. are either of these any better than just reanimating FKZ with a horde of zombies and swinging for lethal?

Not trying to be "that guy"... it just seems to me like FKZ gets you there this turn, while Wurm and this guy set you up for next turn.

Also- sniped by a guy above me, but i'm going to finish this post anyways.

[I am the brainwasher]

I didnt ment to play it as a dread return target in the maindeck, which is just a complete overkill IMO.
As said before, I play Massacre Wurm atm and I am pretty happy with it in the sb and think now about replacing it with Elesh Norn because it is just amazing in the MU where Massacre Wurm comes in. Shutting your opponent entirely off of creatures while pushing the remaining guys and Ichorids/Narcomoebas is huge against Goblins, Merfolk, Elves! and all kind of decks with just bananas (D&T, Faeries) and is just GG while playing the Mirror because this should be a devastating boardcontrol.
If it is necessary in your list is part of your decision, playing Firestorms is fine as well IMO but I really like DR boards.

[Sims]

Well, I guess that's my sticking point. I play no maindeck return targets and I only play 2 DR targets in my board (Zealot and Chosen).

I played against an AggroElves match this past weekend (25 people, 4-1, cut to top 4 and split) and in the games against elves, not once did I wish I had a Wurm to sweep his board... but he also had enough lords that I don't think the Wurm would have got there. He smoked me game 1 as I had terrible dredges, game 2 I blew my firestorm too early (misplay on my part) and ended up having to reuse my ichorids and therapies every turn to make blockers to survive his alpha at 4 life. I had chosen in my yard but needed 1 narco off the next dredge to DR it.. my dredge flpped the narco, zealot, and my 4th bridge. Game. My 3rd game I kept a loose hand of 2 lands, 3 dredgers, firestorm, breakthrough. I say loose because I had no permanent discard outlet, but i figured the firestorm should be enough and breakthrough would get me there... The game went like this:

Him: Forest, Elf go.
me: Rip Pimp. Land, Pimp, Go.
him: land, 3/3 deathtoucher, go
me: eot discard GGT, dredge 2 bridges, troll, narco, narco, DR. Pitch my dredgers, cast breakthrough, and my first dredge flipped over another bridge, narco, and FKZ. GG turn 2.

To be fair, I haven't had to play goblins in a while, so I could see the merits of Norn or the Wurm in that matchup, but it was very unpopular in my meta for a while and is just now starting to be prevelant again. I'll give both cards a fewplay tests and see how I like it out of the board, I just don't see how it's not better to get the FKZ and, as above, just win.

[Gui]

I tend to agree with that, although I reckon FKZ demands you to have enough pressure to win right away, while the -2/-2 with a 5/7 body and permanent +2/+2 are useful on their own, if you don't have a horde of zombies yet.

[menace13]

Wouldn't Iona/Sphinx of the Lost Truths be better if you can not bring out a legion of zombies?
Iona locks about 60 to 90% of opponents spells and Sphinx should allow for more chances to dig up the Bridges(like using a Bazaar that draws 3)

[Izor]

Blake McCracken (UNLEASH MCCRACKEN) didn't even run Ravager. Or Atog. Or Thopter Foundry.

They can kill your Bridges, but they can't beat a giant Troll.

I couldn't think of a deck that cares less about a Troll. Troll is way too slow. First of all, They have like 20 dorks they can throw under a Troll to chump it. Additionally, modern Affinity lists play at least 10 evasive creatures (including Etched Champion) and 4 Cranial Platings, which will laugh at any Troll. Most lists complememnt that with Ravagers. Between all that stuff it's really hard to win for us. Basically, you need the Gold land, Discard dork, Dredger, Breathrough goldfish or they have a reasonable chance to race you.


Serenity beats Affinity and Enchantress.

So you suggest Serenity for the Dredge sideboard??

@ menace 13: Of course she is better in those cases. That's why I like her a lot more than FKZ.


PS: Sorry for being a bit late with this reply, but The Source wasn't working for me lately.

[CabalTherapy]

So maybe our Ichorids will be sometimes 5/3 ?! That sounds like pure fun, while the opp. is playing Goblins or Elves.

[Mandalore]

At the cost to seeming an idiot, but why should we play a DR target which wins against deck that are nearly a bye to us?
Decks which get totally annihilated by Iona already.

I do not see the point to play this dude, and against GW decks doesn't kill reliquary, which is the real problem, assuming that you have managed to DR it before an activation.

[I am the brainwasher]

I really dont know how decks like Goblins or Elves are a cakewalk postboard (and thats the only point where you have the Elesh in your 60; again its not a maindeck choice...). For me it wasnt and I think most Dredge players agree that those arent the MU you see most likeley.
PS: Iona against Goblins is not that great, Aether Vial anyone?

[Izor]

PS: Iona against Goblins is not that great, Aether Vial anyone?

While you are basically right, they only have Vial in about half of the games. I know they seem to always have it, but maths tell otherwise.
Anyway, Goblins are notoriously bad at getting around a 7/7 Flying Angel while only being able to play one spell each turn (and that spell has to have a certain mana cost as well).

As of that new DR target, I will probably not play it. There's simply no need. In the main it's the definition of win more, which I really dislike. As a sb choice it's nowhere near as good as Firestorm against creature based decks. The main difference is that Firestorm cleans the opposing board (usually doing 4-5 damage instead of 2) while simultaneously starting your engine. That creature is a DR Target, which means that you would be winning anyway at the time you get to drop it (or did you ever have any problems against creature based decks after you resolved a Breakthrough?)

[I am the brainwasher]

That depends on how much time I needed to get rid of their hate, so no things can be said in general here. I just dont own Firestorms so this is kinda of my tech. It might be that Firestorm is doing a better job for others, which might be somewhat more experienced, but as far as I played the deck (it really isnt my petdeck, just like it and give a shot here and there, even other players had told me that I am quite good at playing it) I didnt felt that I need those badly.
I just liked to have a a DR target that directly ends the game when it appears and I dont think that its a bad thing at all. I have that space in my sb and I dont think that its a waste of that.

If I would go into a tourney right know I would play the following sb:
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Natures Claim/Serenity
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revealation
1 Dread Return
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Realm Razer
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Massacre Wurm/Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

[igri_is_a_bk]

How come more people don't use Stalking Vengeance? I play non-LED, like most people here, and he really contributes to our gameplan, more than you probably know. You know how we try not to over commit with our deck? He does that better than any other card! You don't have to swing at all if you DR him! You never have to risk your Bridges. How much less interaction with our opponent* do you guys want?

* The good kind, like the fact we play from our graveyard and our opponents have zero hate main.

[Ziilot]

How come more people don't use Stalking Vengeance? I play non-LED, like most people here, and he really contributes to our gameplan, more than you probably know. You know how we try not to over commit with our deck? He does that better than any other card! You don't have to swing at all if you DR him! You never have to risk your Bridges. How much less interaction with our opponent* do you guys want?

* The good kind, like the fact we play from our graveyard and our opponents have zero hate main.

The main thing about Stalking Vengeance is that usually when we want to DR our targets, we want to get in a gamebreaker, like FKZ (which gives us usually lethals) or Iona which locks our opponent at some degree. Stalking Vengeance does neither.

I wouldn't play him as an excuse for not losing bridges. If you have multiple bridges and you are animating FKZ, you usually win, so you shouldn't be worried about bridges.

That new guy, Elesh, looks promising though. Maybe a replacement for Ancestor's Chosen on SD or Iona MD.. It doesn't do anything vs combo, but usually Chosen too is little bit too slow. It should shine vs. zoo, elves, goblins and merfolk, while not always entirely killing their creatures, but making our creatures bigger.