[Deck] Dredge

[igri_is_a_bk]

Okay, and SV is still really good when you don't have Bridges, unlike something like FKZ. And Iona is just trying to do Cabal Therapy's job. I'm certain most of you haven't tested SV at all. Just try it, that's all I'm asking. The fact SV doesn't nuke your own Bridges isn't the only reason to play him - that's just a perk. You play him because he is really synergistic with Ichorid, Therapy, DR, and Narcomoeba + Thug recursion, while being a 5/5 hasty guy, and setting a clock while you build up Zombies. He isn't just some fattie, he's a perfect fit in our crazy Dredge puzzle.

Think about the situations where you don't draw the nuts and you have been slow dredging all game, like when you mull. You know those times when you are bringing back an Ichorid or two only to let them die for tokens, and maybe flying over for 1 or 2 a turn? It's these kind of non ideal situations that SV is really good, and I think those are the times we need to consider what DR target, if any, we want. Don't you agree?

[(nameless one)]

Not trying to be that guy here but isn't this like the 30th time Stalking Vengeance was talked about in here (and the original LED-less Ichorid thread)

Why do we keep bringing up these discussions when we know how theyre going to end. I'll bet money that another 50 posts after this, we will once again talk about Stalking Vengeance.

Honestly though, te way I see it, if you're more comfortable running it, run it. Even though not everyone prefers Iona (especially Max McCall), I still run it. Some say Terastodon, others Sphinx. I guess it all depends on how you pilot the deck and how your local meta looks like.

[HokusSchmokus]

Not trying to be that guy here but isn't this like the 30th time Stalking Vengeance was talked about in here (and the original LED-less Ichorid thread)

Why do we keep bringing up these discussions when we know how theyre going to end. I'll bet money that another 50 posts after this, we will once again talk about Stalking Vengeance.

Honestly though, te way I see it, if you're more comfortable running it, run it. Even though not everyone prefers Iona (especially Max McCall), I still run it. Some say Terastodon, others Sphinx. I guess it all depends on how you pilot the deck and how your local meta looks like.

That is exactly what I mean several pages earlier! I'm tired of discussing Exhume,Force, Brainstorm,Bloodghast,Stalking Vengeance and the like about once every month.

It's all a matter of preferance, though one can say that certain cards are less than optimal. But hey,if it works for you why change it?

[Gui]

Not trying to be that guy here but isn't this like the 30th time Stalking Vengeance was talked about in here (and the original LED-less Ichorid thread)

Why do we keep bringing up these discussions when we know how theyre going to end. I'll bet money that another 50 posts after this, we will once again talk about Stalking Vengeance.

Honestly though, te way I see it, if you're more comfortable running it, run it. Even though not everyone prefers Iona (especially Max McCall), I still run it. Some say Terastodon, others Sphinx. I guess it all depends on how you pilot the deck and how your local meta looks like.

Agreed, although I still find it good that someone post some results/report on the matter, showing how each option worked for him.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with Elesh over Flame-Kin Zealot is that Flame-Kin Zealot wins now with your zombie horde. Elesh wins a turn later with your zombie horde, and very often kills your Bridges when it hits play. However, it's worth noting that Elesh can work with a few less zombies and clears the way.

Stalking Vengeance would probably require you run four Dread Returns to be at maximum effectiveness, because ideally you'd need two to maximize it. Dread Return Stalking Vengeance, Dread Return your Zombies into GGT, then hit them with a Therapy for the win. It's also sexy with Ichorid recursion. It's interesting as a slower sort of kill, but given that it's easy to remove, it's still pretty risky.

I got spanked by River Kelpie in Memphis. Admittedly, it was a god dredge, but the guy went from an empty hand and just one Troll in yard to dredging 6, hitting three Narcomoebas, a Dread Return, another dredger, and a Bridge, to killing me that turn. He got like six or seven dredges off the Kelpie that turn, leading me to think it might be worth testing.

[Muradin]

I've done a lot of testing with the deck and felt that Firestorm is not needed in the board. The cards you take out, when bringing it in are partly nearly as good as Firestorm itself in matchups where you need it.

With the following board I've had a lot of success with the following board geared towards beating storm combo. I made this decission, because those decks tend to be quite bad matchups and because I don't want to dilute my maindeck too much by boarding out too many cards in any other matches.

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Force of Will
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Progenitus
1 Flame Kin Zealot

Progenitus + FKZ have made my painter matchups of any kind a cakewalk. If those decks were not relevant at the moment I would run Terrastodon + Darkblast #2 in those 2 slots.

Postboard the deck has 20 blue cards featuring FoW and Mindbreak Trap against storm combo, while goldfishing roughly turn 4 on average. Leyline of Sanctity has been bad for me, as it doesn't hinder them from comboing via Ad Nauseam and bouncing it afterwards. The 0 mana counter approach however has given me solid results in testing vs TES, UB ANT, Belcher and DD Tendrils.

[Adan]

Don't you think your SB is too narrow? I can see myself scooping to Leylines and Wheel of Sun and Moon all day if I'd play your SB.

[Nidd]

I was considering to run my stock list tomorrow, but I'm kinda undecided on the SB.

Here's my list for reference:

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

As for the SB, I was thinking something along these lines:

2 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Realm Razer
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Angel of Despair / Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

The Realm Razer is a tribute to the people running Enchantress there, at times, there are 5 Enchantress players out of ~60. Also, there might be someone piloting Lands and quite a few people play Landstill - I figure Realm Razer would be able to wreck their shit quite nicely, basically killing off Enchantress players when it hits play, as it kills Elephant Grass and makes it really hard for them to maintain Confinement.
Iona is in there to fight High Tide combo together with FKZ and possibly Realm Razer.
Massacre Wurm will come in against Tribal - I've seen some people pilot Combo Elves and CounterTop Rebels. Also, he kinda trumps the mirror, which 1-2 people play. And he's good against Goblins, I heard.
Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus depends on whichever I like better - Angel of Despair might be nice to get rid of Blazing Archon or pissobly even killing Emrakul, if someone plays Reanimator or Show and Tell, respectively. On the other side, Woodfall Primus is usable twice and can give Enchantress fits.
The other cards should be self-explanatory.

I might also fit in 1-2 Darkblasts in the MD.

Thoughts?

[igri_is_a_bk]

I think multiple Darkblast maindeck isn't a bad idea at all right now. There are tons of Hierarchs, Welders, Dryad Arbors, Moms, Cursecatchers, Lackeys, and other things out there right now.

[HokusSchmokus]

I was considering to run my stock list tomorrow, but I'm kinda undecided on the SB.

Here's my list for reference:

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

As for the SB, I was thinking something along these lines:

2 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Realm Razer
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Angel of Despair / Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

The Realm Razer is a tribute to the people running Enchantress there, at times, there are 5 Enchantress players out of ~60. Also, there might be someone piloting Lands and quite a few people play Landstill - I figure Realm Razer would be able to wreck their shit quite nicely, basically killing off Enchantress players when it hits play, as it kills Elephant Grass and makes it really hard for them to maintain Confinement.
Iona is in there to fight High Tide combo together with FKZ and possibly Realm Razer.
Massacre Wurm will come in against Tribal - I've seen some people pilot Combo Elves and CounterTop Rebels. Also, he kinda trumps the mirror, which 1-2 people play. And he's good against Goblins, I heard.
Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus depends on whichever I like better - Angel of Despair might be nice to get rid of Blazing Archon or pissobly even killing Emrakul, if someone plays Reanimator or Show and Tell, respectively. On the other side, Woodfall Primus is usable twice and can give Enchantress fits.
The other cards should be self-explanatory.

I might also fit in 1-2 Darkblasts in the MD.

Thoughts?

If I get this right, you want to be as flexible as possible with your sb. That's fine, but there is one problem you really have to consider: this deck almost never draws cards besided the opening seven and maybe the next 1-2 cards. Both Claim and Chain are cards that need to be drawn. Running less than 4 of them does not seem optimal for me.

[I am the brainwasher]

"I think multiple Darkblast maindeck isn't a bad idea at all right now. There are tons of Hierarchs, Welders, Dryad Arbors, Moms, Cursecatchers, Lackeys, and other things out there right now."

That is correct, but I think that Dredge normally doesnt care THAT much about most of these. The one copy in the mainboard is perfectly fine but more, I'm not convinced right now.

[CabalTherapy]

"I think multiple Darkblast maindeck isn't a bad idea at all right now. There are tons of Hierarchs, Welders, Dryad Arbors, Moms, Cursecatchers, Lackeys, and other things out there right now."

That is correct, but I think that Dredge normally doesnt care THAT much about most of these. The one copy in the mainboard is perfectly fine but more, I'm not convinced right now.

That's totally right. One Darkblast is fine and cool. More are just "combo breaking".
@SB discussion: I won't play Dredge without 4 Claims and 4 Grudges.

[Gui]

That's totally right. One Darkblast is fine and cool. More are just "combo breaking".
@SB discussion: I won't play Dredge without 4 Claims and 4 Grudges.

Agreed.
Now, what to carry against the mirror? is Leyline the best option? I can't but predict a rise of Dredges all over...

[CabalTherapy]

Agreed.
Now, what to carry against the mirror? is Leyline the best option? I can't but predict a rise of Dredges all over...

If a meta contains a lot of Dredge you can play the Leyline but I don't think that any meta has got a ton of Dredge.
(Dredge mirrors are pretty a coinflip.)

Maybe a 4/7 with all your creatures get +2/+2 and opp's creatures get -2/-2 can help here?

[PhantomLotus]

Is Leyline the best option? I can't but predict a rise of Dredges all over...

The best option now is a new deck ;) Seriously though, Dredge is best in an unprepared or underprepared meta. Between SCG's LA and Atl, people will be prepared now. Sucks because I just finished building the deck about a month ago when I saw that the meta was primed for a Dredge resurgence (grave hate went way down after Suvival's banning). Everybody had to go and spoil it before I really got a chance to play the deck!

(Mostly kidding, as it's mainly my Vintage deck, but I picked up all of the stuff for the Legacy version as well).

[Izor]

The best option now is a new deck ;) Seriously though, Dredge is best in an unprepared or underprepared meta. Between SCG's LA and Atl, people will be prepared now. Sucks because I just finished building the deck about a month ago when I saw that the meta was primed for a Dredge resurgence (grave hate went way down after Suvival's banning). Everybody had to go and spoil it before I really got a chance to play the deck!

(Mostly kidding, as it's mainly my Vintage deck, but I picked up all of the stuff for the Legacy version as well).

I wouldn't be so concerned. Even if people come up with more hate now, maybe Dredge won't have any top8s next time. After that, hate will go down again and you can crush them.

But anyway, as long as people don't change their basic attitude towards the Dredge archetype, I think you can easily crush any tournament in the world with Dredge if you pilot it well. After all, it's still a noob deck only played by noobs who fold to a single Crypt, right?

[Gui]

But anyway, as long as people don't change their basic attitude towards the Dredge archetype, I think you can easily crush any tournament in the world with Dredge if you pilot it well. After all, it's still a noob deck only played by noobs who fold to a single Crypt, right?

Let me know your paypal account, this deserves a donation. xD

[Ssbm Rocks1]

So what specific matchup DR targets are there?

Blazing Archon-decks without removal
aura theif-enchantress
Realm razer-lands
ancestor's chose-burn type decks
llawan-merfolk

Anything else?

[Izor]

So what specific matchup DR targets are there?

Blazing Archon-decks without removal
aura theif-enchantress
Realm razer-lands
ancestor's chose-burn type decks
llawan-merfolk

Anything else?

Ancestor's Chosen against all decks that try to race you by going Aggro as well as stuff like Burn Tendrils-based Storm combo.

Terastodon/Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair: Against decks with annoying permanents like Propaganda/Ghostly Prison, Humility, Solitary Confinement, Moat, Elephant Grass, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm and all that stuff. Those decks are mainly Stax, Enchantress, Lands, Enlightened Control and others.

Other than that, you don't really need anything.

Realm Razer is more specific against Lands. There, it's more powerful that the options above, but in turn it doesn't do much against Stax, Enlightened Control and many other decks. Usually, I would stay with the other options, unless your metagame is really Lands-heavy.

Aura Thief hoses Enchantress. Now if you really think that it's necessary to pack a card that kills such a rare deck but does nothing against anything else, you might consider it.

Blazing Archon: I'd rather gain 35 life with Chosen in any situation. Chosen isn't susceptible to removal and it also prevents your opponent from finishing you off with Burn.

Llawan: It would just be dumb to play Llawan in Dredge, only because all other decks think they have to. Just Play Iona. She does the same thing, except that she also turns off their non-creature spells, namely their countermagic, and she's some hell of a beast as a 7/7 Flyer, as opposed to the mere 2/3 that Llawan provides. But Iona isn't really a specific matchup answer, you can just maindeck her.

Some people also play FKZ in the side as a faster win con against combo and as a good means to play around Tabernacle.

[Gui]

Realm Razer is more specific against Lands. There, it's more powerful that the options above, but in turn it doesn't do much against Stax, Enlightened Control and many other decks. Usually, I would stay with the other options, unless your metagame is really Lands-heavy.

On this, you can play Realm Razer against High tide too, as second DR target together with Iona, because well, they kinda need the lands. Also, by blasting their lands at the right time, you can beat enchantress. I don't know if Terastodon is just better, or if Realm Razer is worth a try...

[Ziilot]

Blazing Archon can be good against Emrakul-decks, since they usually try to race you and don't have removal. I myself play two DR targets in MD, Iona and FKZ and two in SB, Ancestor's Chosen and Terastodon / Woodfall Primus. I think that Realm Razer is too slow and narrow to do anything.

[Nefarsus]

Hi guys. I'm currently finishing up completing my Dredge deck. This deck is like nothing else so it's hard for me to look at card options and see what is optimal and what is not. I'm just looking to find a starting to point to learn with and tweak a deck from there. I've seen what has been winning SCG Opens and it's quite different than the deck on the first page. I see it's pretty outdated, but is it viable? 2 cards I haven't seen in some of the more current decks being Eternal Witness and Undiscovered Paradise. Also should I start the deck with LED or without? I've seen lists that run the rainbow lands, and then others with just blue black. Any advice for a starting point would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Gui]

Read Max McCall Article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18948_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Dredge.html). This is the basic.

[Zirath]

Personally, I'm disappointed with Iona; many decks pack MD answers to her (as a result of Emrakul) and others have the ability to partially play around her. Thinking about it a lot, the only decks that really autolose to Iona even game 2 right now are High Tide and Burn since they would not have deployed threats yet. Every other match up has a better answer in a different DR target, whether its Blazing Archon, Primus/Terrastrodon/Angel or Ancestor's Chosen.

Most Dredge decks no longer play LED since it provides some serious vulnerabilities. There is no such thing as an optimal Dredge list. The primer written by a number of us http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=307947 is also good reading material in addition to Max's article (not trying to broadcast, but I think we did a good job describing the deck). This should give you a decent idea of how to build and pilot Dredge.

Be warned, Dredge is not an easy deck to pick up. You should practice it a lot to get comfortable (both against opponents and goldfishing). If you want to play Dredge, you really cannot give up on it if you feel frustrated when you are not doing well. Like any other deck, it takes time to learn Dredge.

[Zirath]

EDIT: Accidental double post. My bad.

[Digital Devil]

'Just finished 2nd @a local tourney. 4 rounds + top8 - won with a LED-Less list against Bitterstalker, Hatfield's GW Natural Order deck, Landfall Boros, I.D. against Caw Blade. Then I faced BG Pox with Pernicious Deed and Tombstalker, won against the same guy from round 2 and sadly lost against Caw Blade (due to Moat and Sword of Fire and Ice) in the finals. 4x Ancient Grudge + 4x Nature's Claim + 2x Ray of Revelation are mandatory, in my meta. I played a list with a 4x Breakthrough/3x Study split, with a 4th Study in my sb (I want to be as explosive as I can, hence the maindeck Iona and the split in favour of Breakthrough). I almost always sided out Breakthrough, except G3 against Landfall Boros where I switched 4 Study for it (because I knew my opponent played Relic of Progenitus, and I was on the play - 2nd turn Iona is always nice to have). Study is pretty good against Relic, because it avoids your opponent to empty your graveyard by EOT tapping to remove a card and next turn doing the same, since Study itself will be in the graveyard. As a side note, I played 4 rounds against decks packing Karakas, though I still don't find that land to be enough to remove Iona from the maindeck. Sometimes it feels like DR ===> Iona is winmore, but she solves too many problems and only eats a slot.

P.S. - I mean, if I expect Karakas I usually side out Iona, but most decks aren't playing it, that's why the angel is still in my 60.

[Dune Echo]

New Phyrexia just gave Dredge players another headache: Surgical Extraction (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/686). This is basically Force of Will 5-8 against Dredge.

[Wakkarr]

New Phyrexia just gave Dredge players another headache: Surgical Extraction (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/686). This is basically Force of Will 5-8 against Dredge.

Not very scary. Somewhere between Extirpate and Faerie Macabre. Not even close to being a Force of Will, since it cant stop you from resolving a T1 discard outlet and screwing you, plus it will not be maindecked.

[Zirath]

Not very scary. Somewhere between Extirpate and Faerie Macabre. Not even close to being a Force of Will, since it cant stop you from resolving a T1 discard outlet and screwing you, plus it will not be maindecked.

It's also an instant speed answer to a number of strategies that doesn't require mana. Any deck can pick it up and not worry about the consequences against us and Breakfast.

[Wakkarr]

So its extirpate without the single black cost and can be countered? Still not that scary. If people start bringing in this as their only GY hate rather than Relic/Crypt/Leyline, then I'd be Ok with that.

It does seem solid against High Tide, but not having split second makes it a bit awkward, Its a balance between being 'free' and being uncounterable (apart from a Counterbalance).

[Zirath]

So its extirpate without the single black cost and can be countered? Still not that scary. If people start bringing in this as their only GY hate rather than Relic/Crypt/Leyline, then I'd be Ok with that.

It does seem solid against High Tide, but not having split second makes it a bit awkward, Its a balance between being 'free' and being uncounterable (apart from a Counterbalance).

The ability for decks like Merfolk and Goblins to remove Ichorid freely is pretty powerful since Ichorid singlehandedly wins both those match ups with Bridge. I think its worse than I think and better than you think. Mostly, it will require playing around it a little more since it behaves like Ravenous Trap.

As far as it not being countered, that doesn't mean much to us since we have no permission. We can Therapy it, sure. But most decks run 3-4 different cards for graveyard hate so its harder to play around. Its quite easy for a number of decks that run Brainstorm or similar cards to dig for a single of this to hamper us. I think its slightly more dangerous than you give it credit.

[Flan R-E]

I'm anticipating something good for dredge will be printed relatively soon, either in NPH or in Innistrad block somewhere. I mean, there's plenty of hate floating around, so more isn't really necessary. We got Bloodghast around the time Ravenous Trap came out, as well as Sphinx of Lost Truths (this one is not so big mechanically, but it's much easier to get ahold of than Cephalid Sage, being new and all). With the love black aggro has been getting in recent sets, I wouldn't be suprised if some more graveyard based cards were printed for us Dredge players to utilize.

On another note, a lot of players I know like Dredge being around, they say it's good for the format (I dont know why they say this). Does anybody know how the RnD people feel about Dredge? because if they like it they probably wouldn't want to hate us out of our "contender" status.

any thoughts?

[Zirath]

No idea. RnD hate combo but Dredge isn't combo. They have commented that they feel Dredge plays in a way that the game is not meant to but its not as if Dredge warps the format. Its no more dangerous than Goblins, who still have Lackey, or Show and Tell, who can play turn 1 Emrakul potentially.

Based on the picture, everyone thinks the setting suggests a graveyard themed set, which would be great, but not really that likely. Its all speculation. Wizards seems to avoid printing cards that work well from the graveyard. Apparently that is too scary.

[overpowered]

On another note, a lot of players I know like Dredge being around, they say it's good for the format (I dont know why they say this).

I think the main reason that dredge is "good" for the format is because it's a narrow strategy that requires utilizing a much ignored, yet integral part of the game. What other decks win from the graveyard? There are several but none that truly encapsulate the flavor of magic. They all involve just reanimating some stupid big creature...

It forces players to interact with a part of the game that they usually don't and it requires knowledge of how the deck works, thereby culling those with lack of format practice. I believe dredge is one of the healthiest and most competitive decks in legacy. It's good for the format and it's good for Magic in general. Though I must say, I don't think it needs MORE cards... :P

[I am the brainwasher]

I am also not convinced that there will be something printed except huge creatures that cost a billion mana and a have a crazy etb-trigger/ability. Other cards that would fit into the maindeck arent needed IMO, besides printing better discard/drawoutlets which is kinda unreal.
I would be pleased to see some anti-graveyard-hate instead of printing always new annoying crap that actually destroys them. I mean whats the point of that? Not every set needs desperatly a anti-grave card and SOM also featured Nihil Spellbomb, so whats the point of that? Just saying. I really see no sense in that and they would do a whole better job printing something that hoses Combo-decks. But I dont blame Wizards for that, thats maybe the smallest mistake they are repeating all-day-long^^.

In general: I dont think that its that bad. I will play definetly more likeley against extirpate than against Relic's thats for sure. I dont think that it will see that much play. The deck where I see the card in is definetly CAN-Thresh because it can removes KotR and Loam where Crypt wasnt THE answer, but idk if it makes the MU worse or better. Thoughts?

[Izor]

Methinks that nothing will change for us with the new printing of that Extirpate thing. We already have tons of grave hate and this will only join the mass, but it will probably not outclass the rest.

As of what cards I could imagine that would make Dredge better:

Well, I'd reeealy like to see a playable Rainbow Land, one that's better than the pesky Tarnished.

And maybe a DR Target that's not 'win more', but pure 'Win', but I guess Wizards will be intelligent enough not to print something like a Black Ancestor's Chosen that makes the foe lose life xP

The rest of the deck is really too tight.

[I am the brainwasher]

"Well, I'd reeealy like to see a playable Rainbow Land, one that's better than the pesky Tarnished."

Yep, you got it. This is definetly true, hasnt got that on my radar for the moment. Also agreed that they will be at least a bit careful on the abilities of creatures that could be cheated into play from the yard.

[Joe_C]

I would like more discard outlets like tribe or putrid imp(where the discard cost is free) Or a reprint of careful study with a different name. Something that dredges for 10 would be pretty amazing

[Sims]

"Well, I'd reeealy like to see a playable Rainbow Land, one that's better than the pesky Tarnished."

Yep, you got it. This is definetly true, hasnt got that on my radar for the moment. Also agreed that they will be at least a bit careful on the abilities of creatures that could be cheated into play from the yard.

As great as a new rainbow land that is better than Tarnished would be, I have to admit I love the feeling of dropping Tarnished Citadel and bolting myself... seeing a smug look on my opponents face cause i just bolted myself... and then rolling them anyways.

[Kaslan]

hey guys,

this week I went to a small local tournament at my local store and I desided to dust off my old dredge deck. I 4-0 ed the tournament and got 1st place.

My list :

4 X [NARCOMOEBA]
4 x [putrid imp]
4 x [hapless researcher]
3 x [ichorid]
4 x [golgari grave-troll]
2 x [golgari thug]
4 x [stinkweed imp]

4 x [polluted delta]
4 x [cephalid coliseum]
2 x [underground sea]
4 x [darkslick shores]
1 x [island]

4 x [caball therapy]
2 x [dread return]
4 x [careful study]
4 x [breakthrough]
4 x [bridge from below]
2 x [brainstorm] ( playing around with Entomb as well, but it's nice to be able to case Brainstorm with any of my lands )

SB
4 x [force of will]
1 x [ancestor's chosen]
1 x [aura Thief] ( enchantress player )
1 x [massacre wurm] ( elf player )
4 x [leyline of the void]
4 x [chain of vapor]

I played VS Ad Nauseam Storm( game 2 he went all in on turn 2 but Force of will killed him), Canadian Threshold (he had the Relic of Progenitus turn one on game 1 and 2), burn and some sort of combo deck .

I would have lost vs burn if I was playing the rainbow lands. this version of the deck is very stable and consistent.

[I am the brainwasher]

I am tinkering around with a pretty similar build with a friend of mine for quite a time. At the first glance it seems pretty bad compared to the more or less most consistent list with rainbow lands, but it isnt that bad if you play with it. I experienced that a more stable manabase allows to play this deck in a very different style, mostly a very, very slow dredge with casting a lot Thugs and Stinks hard.
I tested an UB-Version really a lot and came to the conclusion that some MU's are kinda(!!!) improved and others have gone horrible due to the lack of colored sb-slots and the lack of Tirerless Tribe.
As much as I like LED-less Dredge with Rainbowlands, I couldnt blame anyone for playing just UB to be honest. Its not a bad deck at all. It plays out very different which can be a huge (dis)advantage, the biggest problem I see is the lack of Ancient Grudge. If someones interested, heres the list I worked out over a couple of months:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Putrid Imp
2 Hapless Researcher
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Retunr
4 Bridge from Below
1 Darkblast

SB:
4 Thoughtseize/Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle/Null Rod
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Terastodon

I am not completely sure about the sb, I am pretty happy with the rest of the deck.

To make things clear, I dont think that this is superior to other Dredge decks, especially with Rainbow Lands and a lot of MU's could go just wrong with just playing UB but I think its still a pretty good deck where you are able to win a whole lot of games with. Sureley I'll stick to the 5 color list but I wouldnt be too surprised that its possible to win tourneys with such a list.
Nice finish, even if such a small tourney isnt that representative to me.

[Kaslan]

it's true that the U-B dredge is slower but I don't see in what match up it's worse than 5c dredge. I think it has a better MU against merfolk, burn, and goblin's

I'm even playing around the Idea of putting personal tutor in the place of brainstorm ( or entomb ). It gets you any spell that you need to go off or to disrupt your opponent and it's Blue :)

what do you guys think of personal tutor in this deck ?

[CabalTherapy]

it's true that the U-B dredge is slower but I don't see in what match up it's worse than 5c dredge. I think it has a better MU against merfolk, burn, and goblin's

I'm even playing around the Idea of putting personal tutor in the place of brainstorm ( or entomb ). It gets you any spell that you need to go off or to disrupt your opponent and it's Blue :)

what do you guys think of personal tutor in this deck ?

I really don't think that discussing such "lists" is needed.
You can't cast Tireless Tribe (the best permanent discard outlet), you can't use Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge (the best SB cards).
There is no other cards that are bashing gravehate like Claim/Grudge.

I think, that we should stay at the LED-less, rainbowland-based Dredge.

[Kaslan]

I really don't think that discussing such "lists" is needed.
You can't cast Tireless Tribe (the best permanent discard outlet), you can't use Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge (the best SB cards).
There is no other cards that are bashing gravehate like Claim/Grudge.

I think, that we should stay at the LED-less, rainbowland-based Dredge.

Isn't this forum all about discussing and playing around with new ideas ?

Maybe my list is not better than rainbow dredge, maybe it is... I posted in this forum so that ppl can give me there point of view on my list. I respect your views on B-U dredge but I don't think that you have any right to tell me not to discuss my dredge list.

[Izor]

It's really hard to say where UB lists are better or worse than Rainbow ones. For example, the argument that Burn becomes easier due to the lack of Tarnished might just be nullified by the speed boost of the Rainbow list, which kills one turn earlier in many cases.

All in all, The non-B and non-U spells are way too important for me to even consider a UB mana base.

[Zirath]

Isn't this forum all about discussing and playing around with new ideas ?

Maybe my list is not better than rainbow dredge, maybe it is... I posted in this forum so that ppl can give me there point of view on my list. I respect your views on B-U dredge but I don't think that you have any right to tell me not to discuss my dredge list.

Why aren't you playing Darkslick Shores? Lack of Brainstorm makes fetches worthless, so you should be playing Darkslick Shores so you don't mess up your Merfolk match up by getting Islandwalked.

[(nameless one)]

I run the typical manabase (4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Colisseum, 3 Tarnished Citadel). I have been thinking of running Darkslick Shore in the Citadel spot.

I would still run the typical list (looks almost identical as Max Mccall's list from that article). Has anyone tried or tested the manabase mentioned above?

My main concern is aggro and burn decks.

[Kaslan]

Why aren't you playing Darkslick Shores? Lack of Brainstorm makes fetches worthless, so you should be playing Darkslick Shores so you don't mess up your Merfolk match up by getting Islandwalked.

I do play Darkslick shores. It's true that with my manabase give's Morfolk the opportunity to attack me with island walk but on the other hand I play 1 basic Island and that protects me from wastelands and makes my Cephalid Coliseum more powerful on turn 2.

[Gui]

I don't think cutting the most sided sideboard option due to manabase issues is worth, just to make aggro matchup somehow better. If you really need further consistancy that much, against aggro decks, run 2 SB Ancestor's to find him faster, since he's pretty much gg against Zoo or Burn. I dislike the idea of playing a version with less than 4x Ancient Grudge SB.

[Zirath]

I do play Darkslick shores. It's true that with my manabase give's Morfolk the opportunity to attack me with island walk but on the other hand I play 1 basic Island and that protects me from wastelands and makes my Cephalid Coliseum more powerful on turn 2.

Sorry, I was looking at the list right below yours. That guy should be playing Darkslick. My bad.

[Octopusman]

I'm putting LED Dredge together.

I searched every post in this thread and only found a handful of people who mentioned Street Wraith. I'm assuming that it was tested and the reason that it's absent from lists is because it's ineffective. However, I'm inclined to believe that it could be quite good in LED to enable fast dredges, manaless draw, another black creature to feed Ichorid without removing dredgers, etc etc.

Does anyone have anything to say about Street Wraith other than "I'm going to test it"?

Thanks,

[Joe_C]

The thing with wraith is it makes you mulligan poorly. Often when playing it, you will be tempted to keep hands that have wraith, and are missing 1 card that would make it much better, and you are likely going to cycle it and "maybe" draw what you need. He big question is, what are you not running to make room for wraith? In LED builds he is inferior to deep analysis, and even careful study. I played with him in my non-led build for some time, but I ran 8 discard dudes (tribe, putrid imp) so he enabled turn 1 discard dork, discard, -2 life, dredge. The big benefit he offered was being quick ichorid food. But he never seemed better than the other options we have to play.


I run the typical manabase (4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Colisseum, 3 Tarnished Citadel). I have been thinking of running Darkslick Shore in the Citadel spot.

I would still run the typical list (looks almost identical as Max Mccall's list from that article). Has anyone tried or tested the manabase mentioned above?

My main concern is aggro and burn decks.

Why not run undiscovered paradise x2 and 1 citadel. It makes you less likely to need to tap citadel more than once for colored mana. Also in aggro infested metas maindecking ancestors chosen is a very strong call. Depending on what aggro decks you face Iona may not be your best choice for a return target if you run any at all

[Octopusman]

He big question is, what are you not running to make room for wraith?

Totally valid. I guess it's not going to work. I doubt I'll test it to be brutally honest. I kind of want to have G1 be all-in, but I love Unmask too much. I was thinking maybe +4 Street Wraith, -4 Unmask.
I wasn't hoping to draw a card off of wraith. I was hoping to use it in the manner you mentioned. Deep Analysis and Coliseum are not the bombs they should be if you don't have LED. I wanted Wraith as a free "draw" so that I could dredge immediately if I don't have LED AND DA or LED AND Coliseum turn 1.
I guess I'll live.

Here's the list I want to assemble:


Breakthrough 4
Bridge from Below 4
Cabal Therapy 4
Cephalid Coliseum 4
City of Brass 4
Deep Analysis 2
Dread Return 2
Flame-Kin Zealot 1
Gemstone Mine 4
Golgari Grave-Troll 4
Golgari Thug 2
Ichorid 4
Iona, Shield of Emeria 1
Lion's Eye Diamond 4
Narcomoeba 4
Putrid Imp 4
Stinkweed Imp 4
Unmask 4


Ancestor's Chosen 1
Ancient Grudge 2
Chain of Vapor 4
Chalice of the Void 4
Ray of Revelation 2
River Kelpie 1
Woodfall Primus 1

Criticism welcome.

Edit: With Wraith, I was hoping that with LED and Coliseum I could: Play LED, Coliseum, put the cycle on the stack, retain priority and LED for blue, Dredge, hit threshhold, activate Coliseum, Dredge more, flashback Deep Analysis, etc. Sounded pretty awesome to me. I know the deck mulligans like crazy, but I feel too dependent on having the right combination of cards in my starting hand so I was trying to creature more redundancy in the draw considering you don't always open with Breakthrough.

[Wakkarr]

Cephalid Coliseum 4
City of Brass 4
Gemstone Mine 4
Lion's Eye Diamond 4

Bridge from Below 4
Cabal Therapy 4
Breakthrough 4
Deep Analysis 2
Dread Return 2
Unmask 4

Putrid Imp 4
Golgari Grave-Troll 4
Stinkweed Imp 4
Golgari Thug 2
Ichorid 4
Narcomoeba 4
Iona, Shield of Emeria 1
Flame-Kin Zealot 1

Sideboard:
Ancestor's Chosen 1
Ancient Grudge 2
Chain of Vapor 4
Chalice of the Void 4
Ray of Revelation 2
River Kelpie 1
Woodfall Primus 1

Format your lists so they are legible.

In general LED-less builds are more consistant, which is the primary concern since the format isnt all that fast at the moment.

Unmask isnt very good, you dont want to be pitching your black cards since they are all useful i.e. You never really want to pitch a brisge/DR/Dredger, plus it doesnt really help you discard or draw, so it makes your mulligans more frequent and less likely to produce a keepable hand once you go to 5-6 cards. They should be Careful Studies to give you more discard outlets and accelerators, it isnt great at either but its better than Street Wraith.

You have 2 maindeck DR targets but only 2 Dread Returns. You should either cut a target (or both) or add more DR's.

One fewer Ichorid in favour of one more Golgari Thug will give you better consistancy

Chalice in the SB is almost useless with only 12 lands, you can almost never afford to bring it it.

[Vandalize]

I'd cut those Unmasks for 3 Careful Study (or 3 street wraith, maybe) and 1 Dread Return.

Street Wraith is worse than CS for drawing/discard, but it feeds Ichorid, which can be really good when you play the slow role.

I think those Chalice of the Void are to prevent Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb, but that also counters LED. Leyline of Sanctity would do better for this cause.

[Bongo]

Why is Bloodghast barely seen in Legacy Dredge?
In Vintage it seems like an automatic 4-of, and they play even less lands than the Legacy version.

[Wakkarr]

Legacy Dredge lists are tighter than Vintage in general. Since we dont have the ability to just play 4 Bazaar and 4 Serum Powder, then mull to Bazaar, we have to maximize the consistancy of getting a discard outlet, mana, dredger and prferably an accelerator as well. This leaves little room to jam in cards which are sometimes good like Bloodghast. That being said, some builds do play some Bloodghasts, but it is tricky to accomodate them since you also need to run Undiscovered Paradise (which is awkward with Cepahlid Coliseum, or casting two spells on turn 2/hardcasting some dudes), as well as 1-2 Dakmor Salvage, which slows the deck down by taking up space and needing to be dregded to trigger the Bloodghasts. i.e. When you dredge your dakmor salvage for 2, you are choosing not to dredge a Stinkweed Imp or Grave Troll.

Chalice seems like a really bad way to fight 0 mana hate/opposing LED's. As mentioned, Leyine of Sanctity does the same job but better, but even that isnt very good.

[Sims]

A question I've been pondering. I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding ghast, and most important reasons I have read have boiled down to:

- It forces you to run Undiscovered Paradise, which can set you back in mana development in those matches where you have to hardcast multiple therapies or want to hardcast and flashback grudge (edit: and as the poster above me said, it makes coliseum awkward)
- It doesn't have haste unless your opponent is already below 10, so it's not as good in the contrrol matchups where ichorids can win you the game coming back and swinging every turn.
- People seem to feel forced to run Darkmor Salvage for whatever reason.

Personally I've played the Ichorid list and haven't tested the Bloodghast list thoroughly, however there is 1 other dredge player in my meta who runs a very heavily customized 5c Non-LED Bloodghast version that is relatively explosive. I'm not sure his list is optimal due to the fact that he has some random 1 of cards that scream win-more and he plays more DR targets than I think is necessary, but it's made me want to pick up the Paradises and give them a whirl at the very least.

[chags]

I've tried bloodghast in a typical 5c LEDless build and I just wasn't a fan. Ichorid serves a similar purpose in a much more agressive way. I don't like that bloodghast doesn't kill itself and the only appeal to playing it in my mind is that you get your 3 dudes to dread return easier but I don't have any problem with that as it is with the deck right now. I don't like playing undiscovered paradise either since some times actually maintaining land drops is important. Bloodghast seems more appropriate in ub lists then 5c lists imo.

[Sims]

I've tried bloodghast in a typical 5c LEDless build and I just wasn't a fan. Ichorid serves a similar purpose in a much more agressive way. I don't like that bloodghast doesn't kill itself and the only appeal to playing it in my mind is that you get your 3 dudes to dread return easier but I don't have any problem with that as it is with the deck right now. I don't like playing undiscovered paradise either since some times actually maintaining land drops is important. Bloodghast seems more appropriate in ub lists then 5c lists imo.

I can agree with this. To be fair, the guy that plays the Bloodghast version in my meta has a very unconventional 5c list.... He has 3 maindeck DR targets (Eternal Witness, FKZ, and Iona) ontop of running 1 Wonder and 1 Island. His flex dredger, instead of the 4th thug or darkblast is a Life from the Loam. His games he generally goes for broke tryin to get a speed DR... either Iona to lock you until he can grind you out, or as this past weekend, most of his wins went from DRing Witness to return and play Island, getting his ghasts and giving the horde flying.

It's by no means conventional nor do I think it's really optimal, but the explosiveness of the ghasts makes me wonder and want to try it out at least.

Maybe I will even try going the full on UB route. Can't hurt to test it, at the very least.

[Octopusman]

I can agree with this. To be fair, the guy that plays the Bloodghast version in my meta has a very unconventional 5c list.... He has 3 maindeck DR targets (Eternal Witness, FKZ, and Iona) ontop of running 1 Wonder and 1 Island. His flex dredger, instead of the 4th thug or darkblast is a Life from the Loam. His games he generally goes for broke tryin to get a speed DR... either Iona to lock you until he can grind you out, or as this past weekend, most of his wins went from DRing Witness to return and play Island, getting his ghasts and giving the horde flying.

It's by no means conventional nor do I think it's really optimal, but the explosiveness of the ghasts makes me wonder and want to try it out at least.

Maybe I will even try going the full on UB route. Can't hurt to test it, at the very least.

Sorry to ask, but is part of the explosiveness of the ghasts due to the wonder allowing them to connect via evasion or does this not matter?


- Thanks for the responses to my earlier questions. I will consider the feedback.

If anyone has experience playing with Unmask, I would like to hear their thoughts.

Also, much of the research that I did claimed that Careful Study was crap.

Thanks,

[Sims]

Sorry to ask, but is part of the explosiveness of the ghasts due to the wonder allowing them to connect via evasion or does this not matter?


- Thanks for the responses to my earlier questions. I will consider the feedback.

If anyone has experience playing with Unmask, I would like to hear their thoughts.

Also, much of the research that I did claimed that Careful Study was crap.

Thanks,

I can't speak a lot about the evasion. I know it has made a difference in some of the matches but if it's worth the 2 slots i couldn't really say without testing. The biggest thing with Bloodghast over Ichorid is the fact that they all come back at once at the low cost of playing a land. Having 1-4 guys come back sometimes as early as turn 2 after your draw step dredge allows you to cast multiple therapies or a DR earlier than the Ichorid version with less invested and without possibly having to remove your thugs or stinkweeds from the yard. For example:

Turn 1 you lay land, outlet and pass... You can pitch your Troll and dredge say 1 narco, therapy, and ghast. Cast careful study, and hit DR, Iona, and another ghast. You can now play a land, bring back both ghast, flashback therapy for countermagic or removal, then DR Iona immediately if their hand is threatening. This isn't counting any bridges you might flip during those dredges, if any.

Good dredge scenario, to be sure, but that's something you can't do with Ichorid. The fact that he can DR E.witness and return a land he dredged away to play and return all 4 ghasts for either a second DR, a string of therapies, or justmore beaters is gravy. One of the aspects I do like about Ghast is that in a control match where you're being forced to slow roll, they can give you an attack step, then flash back therapies and make zombies on the 2nd main, and play a land to bring them back and keep the pressure on.

Again: This is just looking at the possible plus'... I have not personally done any extensive testing with a ghast build, yet, but i plan on it. Either going to just proxy up the paradise' or see if i can find some on the cheap. I will keep you guys aprised of any testing results I have and what things i like or dislike compared to the Ichorids.

[Izor]

Thing is, while Ghast is more explosive in early turns due to the fact that he can return after your draw step, he's worse at everything else. And while it's cool to have 3 Narcomoebas and 3 Ghasty by turn 2, only two Moebas would be enough to kill your opponent easily as well.

But: Ghast doesn't have Haste, it's only 2 power and it doesn't produce Tokens on its own. That makes it so much worse than Ichorid when it comes to grinding out games and killing your opponent as reliably as possible. The fact that Ghast dioesn't die each turn doesn't have any advantage. It would have if he could block, but as it is, he's just weak.

Vintage lists can play it with ease, because they do want to see than scenario on turn 2 and they don't care about grinding out games as much.


And that one-of Island plus Wonder plus Witness thing scares me somehow. So when is that supposed to happen? I would have some difficulties at getting all 3 pieces (Wonder, the Island and Witness) into my graveyard by turn 2 or three. Not to speak of the fact that the shiny plan to drop an island that turn wouldn't work at all if the turn 1 land was a Paradise and/or if your 2nd turn draw effect was a coliseum... And when would it even matter if your 20 hasty 3/3 Tokens on turn 2 have evasion or not?

[Sims]

I neveer claimed his list was anywhere near optimal. I did say it wasn't conventional and that it was highly customized to suit his play style. He tends to pull it off more often than you'd think, and i know on a handful of times it has mattered, though I can't say to what degree the evasion really has helped.

And while I do agree that there are cons to Ghast, I want to at least test it further before dismissing him again. It's one thing to be doing well with Ichorids and dismiss a card because someone is playing it far away, but when you're watching it every week put up similar numbers to your own I think I'd definitely be in the wrong to not at least test it out and see if it's stronger or weaker for the way I play the deck.

i'll post more when I get home. leaving work now.

[Wakkarr]

Sorry to ask, but is part of the explosiveness of the ghasts due to the wonder allowing them to connect via evasion or does this not matter?


- Thanks for the responses to my earlier questions. I will consider the feedback.

If anyone has experience playing with Unmask, I would like to hear their thoughts.

Also, much of the research that I did claimed that Careful Study was crap.

Thanks,

Its 'crap' in the sense that is isnt ideal at discarding or accelerating, but the fact that it does bot, and is therefore very flexible, is the reason it appears in the vast majority of lists, usually as a 4 of. At the very least it is way better than unmask.

I have xperience with unmask, which I why I made the comment I did. It isnt good. Do you ever want to pitch Bridge from Below? Dread Return? A Dredger? Is it worth losing one of those cards instead of running Thoughtseize?

Conemplate the following hand on the play:

Putrid Imp
Stinkweed Imp
Breakthrough
Gemstone Mine
City of Brass
Unmask
Narcomoeba

In the above example unmask is a blank. You dont want to pitch P-Imp since it is your only outlet, you dont want to pitch S-Imp because it is your only dredger. The fact that every single black card in your deck does something relevant means that you will only have profitable Unmasks when you are pitching another Unmask, or have redundancy (G-Thug ans S-Imp in the same 7). So you are much better off playing a card which always does something decent, like Careful Study, it isnt insane, but its always good.

@ Sims

The reason people feel they 'need' to run Dakmor salavge, is because if they dont there will be numerous situations in which they are completely unable to ever trigger Bloodghast, o they are just running 4 blanks which pitch to Ichorid. e.g. If they have a 1 land hand and dont draw etc... Unless they run witness/Sun Titan, which are both bad.

I actually quite like Boodghast, the ability to get more free creatures is nice. The problem is that it is replacing cards which do more for the deck. i.e. Ichorid is stronger (typically), cutting spells makes you slower/less consistant, and cutting lands is just bad.

[Parcher]

The fact that Ghast dioesn't die each turn doesn't have any advantage.

This is incorrect. Not that I neccassarily prefer Bloodghast, but in games after the first, having access to multiple creatures that are immune to topdecked graveyard hate can sometimes be desirable. Especially against decks that can easily remove Bridges, or sweep tokens. With Fetchlands, they can even enter play in response to the GY hate.

[Gui]

Btw... so, if mental misstep really make the cut into most decks, meaning a potential counter to our discard outlets and draw spells, will we have further problems than we already face with FoW & Daze? thoughts about it?

[Octopusman]

Btw... so, if mental misstep really make the cut into most decks, meaning a potential counter to our discard outlets and draw spells, will we have further problems than we already face with FoW & Daze? thoughts about it?

You beat me to it. I think this makes the LED version stronger. This deck is very tight so it's hard to innovate but I think this is absolutely going to impact Ichorid. I predict MM having a very large impact.

I'm already brainstorming on how to adapt.

DDD looks more tempting as well... and not just against blue decks anymore? This could be tricky post board...

[Gui]

You beat me to it. I think this makes the LED version stronger. This deck is very tight so it's hard to innovate but I think this is absolutely going to impact Ichorid. I predict MM having a very large impact.

I'm already brainstorming on how to adapt.

DDD looks more tempting as well... and not just against blue decks anymore? This could be tricky post board...

I'm thinking about Firestorm as discard outlet instead of careful, and also adapting maindeck Mental Missteps. Also thought about, 2cc discard outlets, which is terrible. Maybe we'll have to increase land count? :eyebrow:

First turn Cabal Therapy into Mental Misstep will be common play now, which is terrible too.

I'm open to ideas... All I see is everyone maindecks that sh!t card... ><

[Sims]

We'll have to just see what we see. I'm going to keep playing the way I have been until the card hits the point that every deck runs 4. I still am unsure that is even going to be the case, but if it happens then I'll adapt accordingly and begin testing my options. One of those options might entail going to a pure U/B manabase and dropping tribe in favor of LED or a 2cc outlet It might entail adopting a slower old-extended style dredge deck. It might entail 4 copies of Mental Misstep of my own. It might entail doing absolutely nothing and plowin through people anyways.

At the moment I just think it's too early to tell if the majority of people are Overreacting and Overhyping... or if I'm wrong and just not seeing the same issue everyone else is. To me, it just seems asinine to try and find room for 4 maindeck Missteps just to counter other players Missteps. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and will eat those words and end up doing it anyways.

[Gui]

We'll have to just see what we see. I'm going to keep playing the way I have been until the card hits the point that every deck runs 4. I still am unsure that is even going to be the case, but if it happens then I'll adapt accordingly and begin testing my options. One of those options might entail going to a pure U/B manabase and dropping tribe in favor of LED or a 2cc outlet It might entail adopting a slower old-extended style dredge deck. It might entail 4 copies of Mental Misstep of my own. It might entail doing absolutely nothing and plowin through people anyways.

At the moment I just think it's too early to tell if the majority of people are Overreacting and Overhyping... or if I'm wrong and just not seeing the same issue everyone else is. To me, it just seems asinine to try and find room for 4 maindeck Missteps just to counter other players Missteps. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and will eat those words and end up doing it anyways.

No, really, you are right to think that maybe nothing happens, and we don't have to adapt. You really are. But don't blame me for looking forward the possible changes for the case this scenario end up happening. And well, at least Tempo decks are going to maindeck the card, because it fits their strategy so well. I mean, was I playing Team America, I would, wouldn't you?

I like the idea of discussing options for a possible scenario, even if it doesn't happen, I will have it ready when/if it does.

Of course some of the options are obvious, some are not that much... maybe some new idea shows off that way, and we can go back to the usual useless maindeck DR-target discussion, or whether LED dredge is faster but got less consisntancy than LEDless one. It's even possible that, in tests, we end up discovering that the card helps nothing even when countering our discard outlets, since we have around 20! and that card is just 4 more counters that they will have to deal with when the opposing guy run no 1cc spells.

[Sims]

No, really, you are right to think that maybe nothing happens, and we don't have to adapt. You really are. But don't blame me for looking forward the possible changes for the case this scenario end up happening. And well, at least Tempo decks are going to maindeck the card, because it fits their strategy so well. I mean, was I playing Team America, I would, wouldn't you?

I like the idea of discussing options for a possible scenario, even if it doesn't happen, I will have it ready when/if it does.

Of course some of the options are obvious, some are not that much... maybe some new idea shows off that way, and we can go back to the usual useless maindeck DR-target discussion, or whether LED dredge is faster but got less consisntancy than LEDless one. It's even possible that, in tests, we end up discovering that the card helps nothing even when countering our discard outlets, since we have around 20! and that card is just 4 more counters that they will have to deal with when the opposing guy run no 1cc spells.

My appologies, I didn't mean to offend you or come off as saying we don't need to do any investigating or anything as yet. You are right to do so and it never hurts to be prepared and I'm not trying to curb any discussion on what could or should be done in the event that misstep becomes the new poster child for the format. I at the moment am currently still very dubious on the card or if it will have any effect on us at all.

However, in an effort to be constructive: If Misstep turns into this super 4x in every deck I could see one of two things happening: The format brushes it off, or the format slows down.

We could try a 2cc discard outlet and see how bad it hurts us. The Faerie is arguably the best 2cc outlet, although I suppose some argument could be made for Zombie Infestation as being right in contention. It would slow us down a hair and force us to look for hands with more lands and the ability of actually casting 2cc spells regularly. This might entail more land, but would likely turn off the concept of running Paradise. You could probably take this build pure U/B but i'd hate to lose Ray/Claim/Grudge/Firestorm out of the board. Maybe looking to the old extended lists that didn't have the speed of Breakthrough and Ichorids for inspiration as to ways we could win and be a little more resilient?

Another option is kind of a known quantity: Play LED and just try to blow out and be faster than the misstep decks. Who cares if they counter our turn 1 Imp/Tribe if we're just going to drop LED, break it, and flash back Deep Analysis?

Outside of the above, the only option I could think of is just holding firm as we have a plethora of ways to get things into our graveyards. Granted almost all of them can be coutnered by Misstep: but that's 4 missteps vs. 16 easy outlets + 4 breakthroughs in a pinch + Firestorm out of the board + the potential to just start the game DDD.

[Gui]

No offense taken at all. Just justifying myself for discussing the "hype", that's all.

This last argument is what I think the most. I think that, since we run a lot of ways of throwing things into graveyard (20 with therapy), they would have to be able to counter 2-per-game to consistantly hate our discard. That would mean they would be slow, since running a lot of counters.

The effect of the card, thus, would be more dangerous in aggro decks, able to put pressure while countering our stuff... there, they can also kill our permanent discard and counter our blue draw/discard. In these matches we shall have trouble, specially trying to recover from Tormods in the meantime.

I think the best 2cc discard outlet would be between Zombie Infestation, for it's not easily removed, and Aquamoeba, that can be cast out of 2 cephalid (that doesn't happen much, tho.)

Granted, Firestorm, at least from board, seems the solid option. ^^

[Sims]

I did forget about Aquameoba. I tend to forget that guy exists after the nerf bat hit him with the M10 combat rules change.

I suppose that makes the list of potential 2cc discard outlets Oona's Prowler , Aquameoba, and Zombie Infestation.

That's a tough call. Prowler I like cause it can get in there for 1 or 3 in the air, but the fact that it's a discard outlet for your opponent could bite us in the mirror match. Zombie Infestation is probably still the best by being hard to remove and making dudes whenever we pitch dredgers. However, the one thing I can tell immediately that i'm not going to like about Infestation is that when I'm trying to play around Crypt I might give up too much having to pitch 2 cards to it. I guess we'll find out how that plays out when i get to testing it more.

Dunno. Testing would tell.

[Kaslan]

what do you guys think of Gitaxian Probe ? i think it could find a place in dredge... helps you know when to go off, has good synergy with cabal therapy, can be free to cast and draws you a card.

[Sims]

what do you guys think of Gitaxian Probe ? i think it could find a place in dredge... helps you know when to go off, has good synergy with cabal therapy, can be free to cast and draws you a card.

I can't say I'd hold my breath. The interaction with Therapy is cute, but we're not playing Dump Truck. Really the card would be here as pay 2 life, dredge. But That effect doesn't seem strong enough to justify trying to squeeze it in to an already really tight list.

Probably not going to happen, though i'd love to be proved wrong.

[Kaslan]

I can't say I'd hold my breath. The interaction with Therapy is cute, but we're not playing Dump Truck. Really the card would be here as pay 2 life, dredge. But That effect doesn't seem strong enough to justify trying to squeeze it in to an already really tight list.

Probably not going to happen, though i'd love to be proved wrong.

you are probably right. but for the ppl that wanted to play Street Wraith that card is 100% better

[Sims]

you are probably right. but for the ppl that wanted to play Street Wraith that card is 100% better

Yes and no. Gitaxian probe does allow us to look at the opponents hand and set up therapies quite well, which is a definite plus. But it's a sorcery, so it can only be done on our turn. But the Phyrexian mana means we could always use it as a peek if we need to without paying 2 life.

Street Wraith has a few things going for it over probe. Cycling being done at instant speed could have some corner cases where it matters, but it also leaves a black creature in your yard for ichorid, where probe does not.

Either way, they both essentially do the same thing: Pay 2 life, dredge. But it just doesn't seem strong enough in an already cramped list.

[GGoober]

Isn't the best way to fight Misstep is pack more 1cmc discard outlets than to shift to 2cmc discard outlets and slowing the deck by yet another 1-2 turns to get stomped over?

I think people don't quite understand that Misstep is going to be a hindrance for Dredge, but if you fight Missteps by shifting your curve, you are no probably going to lose more matchups than ever before due to the loss of speed, not to mention losing to Misstep decks not drawing Missteps when you could have led off with a 1cmc discard outlet and won the game.

If anything, it's to bring back the LED builds for an additional +4 discard outlets (matchig their +4 Missteps) which grants an even faster speed, rather than shifting to 2cmc discard outlets (i.e. dredging on turn 3 and critical mass on turn 5 is awefully bad in Legacy).

Another solution, play +4 Entombs to increase your +4 1cmc discard outlets (matching their +4 Missteps). I think the solution to misstep is definitely not increasing the mana curve, but it's the same way as how decks fight Wastelands i.e. play more dual lands instead of less duals.

[Sims]

Only way to know for sure will be to test it. As I've said before, I personally don't think misstep is going to be any more of a pain than Force, so having 20 pre-board ways of getting the dredgers to the yard without even considering the DDD plan i'm proably fairly safe from misstep. If it does prove to be hindering, then I'll go from there. The thought process behind 2cc discard outlets is that if Misstep becomes this great deterrent that some are hyping it to be, than legacy as a whole will slow down. If that happens, a 2cc outlet won't be much of a hinderance as it'll keep us in line with where we are compared to the rest of legacy... Or, go the LED route and speed the deck up some. However, I still don't like LEDs as they really put you all in and feel less consistant than the non-LED versions.

You're likely right, but it never hurts to test all possibilities.

[Rune]

If you want a good 2cmc outlet, Tolarian Winds is pretty broken, since it's basically like having LED + Breakthrough in one card, except it doesn't force you to go all in.

But tbh, I think you are still more likely to resolve 1cmc outlets than the 2cmc ones even with MM around.

[Kaslan]

If you want a good 2cmc outlet, Tolarian Winds is pretty broken, since it's basically like having LED + Breakthrough in one card, except it doesn't force you to go all in.

But tbh, I think you are still more likely to resolve 1cmc outlets than the 2cmc ones even with MM around.

totally forgot about Tolarian Wind. that is the best 2cmc !

[Gui]

The problem with 2cc discard outlet, as people must have figured already, is that you are not much likely to have 2 lands most of the games. We would have to tweak our manabase to have to lands more often. With 15 lands (assuming the outlet is blue) we have 88% chance of having 1 land, but only 56% of having 2, in the initial 7. Of course there's a possible draw, but there's a possible mulligan too, so it's more or less that 56%, which is far less likely to happen than 88% (or 77% for 11 rainbows, or 74% for 10 rainbows).

Before testing 2cc outlets IF we end up needing to adjust, I'd try Firestorm maindeck first. Then, maybe, LED. But I agree with the "play even more 1cc stuff" can end up being the right answer, and also agree that we already play a big bunch of them, so, maybe we just keep playing our regular list and go with the Ostrich Algorithm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrich_algorithm). At least, this will be my first test. xD

[I am the brainwasher]

"so, maybe we just keep playing our regular list and go with the Ostrich Algorithm. At least, this will be my first test. xD "

:laugh:Definetly made my day! Thats the exact "strategy" I follow with my sideboard atm.
I have cut all Natures Claim for Leyline of Sanctity, which improves the Combo MU, Hates out Trap, Crypt, Spellbomb, Bog and can go randomly in against Burn or something. As far as I tested it I was just amazed. Lets be honest, which deck plays Leyline atm? All of them are more or less random and its definetly worth to accept Leyline as THE hate IMO. I really see no point of running Claim. Every competent deck+player I saw in the last time didnt played Leyline at all. So why not accept it?
The only problem with this is that youll definetly loose games in especially small tourneys where Kitty-Cat XY is packing them, but big tourneys, I wouldnt play it at all in the near future. Loosing to one random deck in the Swiss due to the lack of Leyline is so much better than loosing games to Combo or every other H8 not named Relic of Progenitus.
After all that I came to the conclusion that its not worth running Claim anymore, 1-2 Ray of Revealation is enough to deal with pesky enchantments, combined with Terastodon and Therapy. I hope a lot of players cut their GY-hate for Surgical extraction, Dredge would have its primetime of its life, and maybe then I consider going back to Natures Claim.
Greetings!

[(nameless one)]

Hey brainwasher,

How does your main and sideboard look like?

[I am the brainwasher]

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revealation
1 Dread Return
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Realm Razer
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Stalking Vengeance

I am pretty happy with it. After winning game1 (mostly) I usually board Grudges against decks where I am pretty unsure about which H8 they play, expect those who pack Goyfs and KotR because they arent willing to criple themselves with Relics, Leyline just shines against Bog and Crypt(Spellbomb/Trap. Against most other decks where I expect no Relics I board simply Leyline.
Also Leyline comes in against Storm, of course (and also against Belcher which I dont consider a Stormdeck^^).
I can just recommend to play as many games as necessary to understand my statement made above, which is indeed no nonsense. The games where the opponent has Leyline had become so damn rare that its not worth running Claim anymore, I always wondered if this is just me.

[Gui]

When you board-in Leylines, do you mull until you get a leyline? Do you board-in leyline g2 if you don't know what you are expecting, or just grudge, and just board Leyline at a possible g3?

[Final Fortune]

Seriously, why are you guys talking about Misstep when you should be talking about the Blue Chancellor? That card seems incredibly overpowered, considering you can mulligan straight for it and start the game with seven cards in your discard pile for Breakthrough or Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum, that's better than DDD ever was.

[Felidae]

To bad that only each opponent puts his first 7 cards to the yard ;). MM doesn't seem to be that strong against us, because at the end of the day it's still just a counter and we should be used to get some of our stuff counterd. And before we go back to Tolarian Winds I'd rather just cast Breakthrough for 2.
@ Brainwasher: I'm running the Leylines since 2 months now and so far I'm pretty happy with them. However usually I only board them as anti hate if my opponent is running blue (so he can hide them from my Therapys with BS). Otherwise I just board in the 4 Grudges and blow there Crypts up.
For ref. my current board:
4 Leyline
4 Grundge
4 Claim
1 Ray
1 Terrastodon
1 Ancestors Choosen

[Final Fortune]

Doh, bad idea to rely on the wording of unofficial spoilers apparently.

[Charlatan]

Noob question: when shoul I side Ancestor? It seems to me a lame card!

[CabalTherapy]

Noob question: when shoul I side Ancestor? It seems to me a lame card!

That's indeed a noob question.
Against: Zoo, Burn, TES, DDfT, Goblins, some Sligh... Against everything that causes you a lot of damage (life loss) in the early game.

[Vandalize]

Seriously, why are you guys talking about Misstep when you should be talking about the Blue Chancellor? That card seems incredibly overpowered, considering you can mulligan straight for it and start the game with seven cards in your discard pile for Breakthrough or Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum, that's better than DDD ever was.


Just read the card. There's an OPPONENT factor in the text.

[Charlatan]

I was retired and lost some dredgs changes/evolutions, so:

Isn't eternal witness played in dredge anymore?

[CabalTherapy]

Isn't eternal witness played in dredge anymore?

No, it's just a waste of an important slot.

[I am the brainwasher]

"No, it's just a waste of an important slot. "

- I think that it depends on your build and especially on LED or LED-less Dredge. In LEDversions I would consider playing it over Sphinx of Lost Truths. Can restore LED's for additional Deep Analysis, pick up Breakthrough/Study with floating Mana or get back a permanent discard outlet or Natures Claim/Firestorm can be a good deal and I really like the flexibility of her. In LED-less, agreed, theres no need/space for it.

[2nd_lawl]

No, it's just a waste of an important slot.

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

[Sims]

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

I disagree.

Sun titan doesn't get you breakthrough back. Sun titan doesn't get nature's claim/chain of vapor back to get rid of an ensnaring bridge or moat stopping you.

They serve different purposes depending on the build.

[CabalTherapy]

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

[2nd_lawl]

I disagree.

Sun titan doesn't get you breakthrough back. Sun titan doesn't get nature's claim/chain of vapor back to get rid of an ensnaring bridge or moat stopping you.

They serve different purposes depending on the build.

You can just bring back coliseum, which is just as good as breakthrough, but cant be mental mistepped.

[2nd_lawl]

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

I play sun titan instead of sphinx of lost truths, not instead of FKZ. Sun titan does everything sphinx does, but also has alot of corner case applications, and lets you play serenity in your sideboard.

[Sims]

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

Then why not pick up a land? I don't run witness, heck I don't run any DR targets maindeck outside of Troll and only Zealot and Chosen in my board, but I could see times with Titan i'd rather just get witness and get back the breakthrough or land or claim/grudge/chain/poison of choice. I can see reasons for running both but I don't think either one is good enough. And while cool, i'm not sure how effective running Titan and Serenity is... having to dredge away two 1-of's and still needing time for it to go off seems too cute to be truly effective.

[CabalTherapy]

Then why not pick up a land? I don't run witness, heck I don't run any DR targets maindeck outside of Troll and only Zealot and Chosen in my board, but I could see times with Titan i'd rather just get witness and get back the breakthrough or land or claim/grudge/chain/poison of choice. I can see reasons for running both but I don't think either one is good enough. And while cool, i'm not sure how effective running Titan and Serenity is... having to dredge away two 1-of's and still needing time for it to go off seems too cute to be truly effective.

I don't want to be misunderstood.
I am not running Titan, Witness, Serenity or something like that. Also don't think that this is good.
Titan is weaker than Iona, FKZ, Sphinx... and other MB DR targets, but stronger than Witness^^.

[Sims]

Never said that you did or were running any of the above. Was kind of responding to two posts at once. My bad on that.

[Wakkarr]

I play sun titan instead of sphinx of lost truths, not instead of FKZ. Sun titan does everything sphinx does, but also has alot of corner case applications, and lets you play serenity in your sideboard.

How does it do everything that Sphinx does? Sure if you have an untapped land you can get back a coliseum to draw 3, which assumes you didnt get wastelanded or that your land is tapped because you just cast a breakthrough/careful study,otherwise you need to wait a turn to get back 2 lands, assuming you dont get wastelanded or the Titan gets killed. Plus Sphinx can be dread returned, sacced to Therapy, then dread returned again to go through your whole deck in a single turn.

[ivanpei]

I think the best way is to just play through misstep. Play the MAX number of discard outlets and we should be ok. In Blue decks, Misstep replaces Daze/Spell Pierce, so their answer density remains the same. We still beat those decks anyway, so it's not a problem IMO. I don't believe dredge has the available slots to do anything about Misstep, we just have to live with it.

Aggro decks that play misstep will benefit, but this reduces their threat level as well, slowing them down. Dredge is unlike other combo because dredge has plenty redundancy. Do you lose to just 1 force? Nope, this isn't belcher, so we shouldn't lose to 1 misstep either. I don't think LEDs are the right call against misstep. Sure you have 4 extra 0cc un-missteppable outlets, but your careful study/breakthrough can still be misstepped.

Playing 2cc spells like Tolarian Winds is also quite bad because this deck just has 15 lands, so it's not going to be easy to consistently get 2 mana sources.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Maybe you are right as the (IMO) good lists play 4 Pimp / Tribe / Careful Study... lowering on this cards is an essential misstake when playing Dredge...

Also, If Mental Misstep will have such an high impact, what about Firestorm as additional outlet? Yep, the costs are additional.
The card isn't that bad, and I played 2 main sometimes in the past, as it is also good against aggro =P

[2nd_lawl]

Uhh, you bring back led to flashback deep analysis or a hapless reasearcher. Have you even been paying attention?

[ivanpei]

Uhh, you bring back led to flashback deep analysis or a hapless reasearcher. Have you even been paying attention?

And if you don't draw deep analysis? What if you have deep anal in hand but no LED? Thats the thing about LED lists, they're very inconsistent. LED lists ideally want to draw LED and go crazy into a Deep Analysis into even more crazy. Point is, to go crazy in the first place, you still need Careful Study/Breakthrough and those are still Missteppable. And regarding preempting Missteps. What? You do know it's a free spell like Force right?

I have LEDs yet I still don't play them, I prefer consistency. Now with Missteps I would say the LED lists are even worse. You need every single discard outlet/draw spell you can afford to play. Wasting slots for fragile combo components seems unwise.

@ Necro, I agree firestorm is a great card. I play the usual Max discard outlets and usually Firestorm fights with Tribe for slots MD.Tribe IMO is a better card when on the play and helps you pitch stuff every turn. Tribe is also great against dudes, similar to Firestorm. I think Firestorm should be played in addition to Tribe and not instead of Tribe in the MD.

Question is what to cut? IMO the cuttable things are the 4th Thug, the 4th Ichorid, the 15th Land or the 2nd Dread Return. If mental misstep Forces us to have more MD discard outlets, I'd cut a Thug and an Ichorid for 2 Firestorms. Actually I've also tested entomb in Dredge. It's honestly a pretty good card to see in your opening hand. I eventually cut it though. Maybe it could make a comeback as an additional discard outlet?

[Charlatan]

Here is a pick from my deck. Still runing 3 unmask and 1 witness.

http://www.ligamagic.com.br/fotolog/upload/real/22562/cc9a0f6e8bab43aee4fa28c6522647c1.jpg

The witness healped a lot when i didnt started with SB in my hand. I bought an IONA, but i'm afraid of running it, i just feel as if I could win with out this creep in the board.

In about 2 months, there is going to happen the qualifiers to the most important brazilian legacy tournament and I have 3 options: Gobbos, Ichorid and Canadian UGR.

In Brazil, there is a very aggro meta. A lot of folks and Zoo...

[Flan R-E]

I get the impression that Mental Misstep with strengthen either more dedicated Control Decks to be viable, or else strengthen tempo decks to be even more powerful powerhouses, and possibly go in some aggro decks like zoo and goblins or something...

The point is that the card strengthens tempo decks, Our good matchups, and possibly brings back control decks, another good matchup. and by strengthening these archetypes weakens combo, generally our bad matchups.

so basically, more control, more tempo, less combo = hooray for dredge. am I on the right track here guys?

One thing i'm afraid of is aggro decks with surgical extraction and misstep turning into bad matchups, but they already have tormods crypt so I can't really see them adding both or replacing crypt .

[Gui]

I get the impression that Mental Misstep with strengthen either more dedicated Control Decks to be viable, or else strengthen tempo decks to be even more powerful powerhouses, and possibly go in some aggro decks like zoo and goblins or something...

The point is that the card strengthens tempo decks, Our good matchups, and possibly brings back control decks, another good matchup. and by strengthening these archetypes weakens combo, generally our bad matchups.

so basically, more control, more tempo, less combo = hooray for dredge. am I on the right track here guys?

One thing i'm afraid of is aggro decks with surgical extraction and misstep turning into bad matchups, but they already have tormods crypt so I can't really see them adding both or replacing crypt .

Not really. The fact that Blue-Tempo and Blue-Control decks are better is indeed not to be that feared, because tempo decks cannot dilute their core much more with even more counters (they will switch the less impressive ones), and they are low on threats, so we have outs for them.

Zoo and probably Goblins, on the other hand, can dilute their core easily to fit 4 MMs and still be fast. We have to worry about them, because if they counter our only outlet, our chance of racing them is smaller, as they will be racing us.

Besides, if MM end up being that good, Chalice decks will make a comeback, they are obvious answers to these low curve counterspell based decks. The terrible side is that Chalice-Aggro decks are a terrible matchup for us, because they slow us down to DDD, but put enough pressure for DDD to be too slow. Besides, Trinisphere screw us bigtime.

Now thinking about it, I think Ichorid may make a comeback to this deck, being better when we are in DDD mode. Also, increasing the amount of Dredgers, and playing Firestorms are all good outs.

But, of course, that all depends on what the meta will shift to.

[2nd_lawl]

I wrote a long reply, but the forums ate it so I will give you the TLDR version:
1) Basically if you think LED is less consistent that is laughable(seriously think about it) and defies logic.
2) Trying to beat counterspells by PLAYING MORE 1CC SPELLS against decks with 4 MM, 4FOW, and 3 daze, will not work. You cannot, in a dredge deck, reliably have multiple outlets + land + dredgers in your opening hand, it just isnt feasable.
3) I used to side out LED in alot of matchups(and still do against merfolk, and other non-goyf aggro decks, where firestorm is nutty) but since the printing of Leyine of sanctity it is much easier to just play your game 2's and 3's like your game 1's just with leyline of sanctity. Alot of decks cant play relic (because of goyf, kotr, welder, whatever) so everyone is on the crypt, or trap, or bog, or GSZ for loaming shaman, or wheel of sun and moon or whatever plan. and Leyline trumps all of them, cant be countered, doesent prevent you from using LED by sitting in your hand. Plus you have the sick bonus of the card being very good against alot of decks anyway(burn, ANT, painted stone[nice intuition] etc.).

[Sims]

I wrote a long reply, but the forums ate it so I will give you the TLDR version:
1) Basically if you think LED is less consistent that is laughable(seriously think about it) and defies logic.
2) Trying to beat counterspells by PLAYING MORE 1CC SPELLS against decks with 4 MM, 4FOW, and 3 daze, will not work. You cannot, in a dredge deck, reliably have multiple outlets + land + dredgers in your opening hand, it just isnt feasable.
3) I used to side out LED in alot of matchups(and still do against merfolk, and other non-goyf aggro decks, where firestorm is nutty) but since the printing of Leyine of sanctity it is much easier to just play your game 2's and 3's like your game 1's just with leyline of sanctity. Alot of decks cant play relic (because of goyf, kotr, welder, whatever) so everyone is on the crypt, or trap, or bog, or GSZ for loaming shaman, or wheel of sun and moon or whatever plan. and Leyline trumps all of them, cant be countered, doesent prevent you from using LED by sitting in your hand. Plus you have the sick bonus of the card being very good against alot of decks anyway(burn, ANT, painted stone[nice intuition] etc.).

1) Proof? I don't exactly stalk the deck check replacements but most of the dredge decks i've seen place anywhere recently have all been non-LED. I don't think I've met or played with anyone who has had the opinion that LED version is more consistant. Can I see your list? I'd love to test your build and put it thorugh it's paces on my own to decide if it is or isnt less consistant, since from all the results and prior testing I've done it hasn't stood up to non-LED.

2) I'm likely not going to be trying to fit more 1cc spells in my deck, I'm just going to roll deep with the 16-20 (if you count breakthrough) maindeck discard outlets that I have at 1cc. They only have 4 FoWs and 4 Missteps. Even then they may yet swap out daze for Misstep.... I've never had a problem before as 1 counterspell isn't going to stop you, typically, and that isn't going to change becuase they have 4 other conditional counters.

3) Leyline of Sanctity is good, I'll grant you that. They fluctuate in and out of my board as I feel necessary and are likely to make a more permanent residency in my board at some point soon. So I can't really speak ill here on this card.

[Wakkarr]

I wrote a long reply, but the forums ate it so I will give you the TLDR version:
1) Basically if you think LED is less consistent that is laughable(seriously think about it) and defies logic.

No, it doesnt defy logic, and it is supported by results. Playing a build with LED and Deep Analysis means you have to cut important pieces. Usually 2 Lands and 4 Tireless Tribe. This means it is harder to find a land to play your 1cmc spells, leading to more mulligans, and reducing the number of permenant dicscard outlets makes you far more likely to fizzle due to cracking an LED, but not hitting another dredger once you drdge back the first dredger you discard with the LED.



2) Trying to beat counterspells by PLAYING MORE 1CC SPELLS against decks with 4 MM, 4FOW, and 3 daze, will not work. You cannot, in a dredge deck, reliably have multiple outlets + land + dredgers in your opening hand, it just isnt feasable.

It seems unlikely that many decks will run that much permission, other than Merfolk, since Daze will probably be replaced by MM for the most part, since Bant/Team America they would have to cut threats or other better disruption than Daze.

What do you suggest ? It seems kinda pointless to say "X will not work" without suggesting an alternative. I think against a deck playing that much perissions you can afford to choose to draw and just DDD. If 10+ 'free' counterspells becomes the norm for blue decks, then builds with 4 Ichorid, 4 Cabal Therapy, and possible even Bloodghast may become the norm for Dredge.



3) I used to side out LED in alot of matchups(and still do against merfolk, and other non-goyf aggro decks, where firestorm is nutty) but since the printing of Leyine of sanctity it is much easier to just play your game 2's and 3's like your game 1's just with leyline of sanctity. Alot of decks cant play relic (because of goyf, kotr, welder, whatever) so everyone is on the crypt, or trap, or bog, or GSZ for loaming shaman, or wheel of sun and moon or whatever plan. and Leyline trumps all of them, cant be countered, doesent prevent you from using LED by sitting in your hand. Plus you have the sick bonus of the card being very good against alot of decks anyway(burn, ANT, painted stone[nice intuition] etc.).
Why would you side out LED? If it makes the deck more consistant then surely it should always stay in. (sarcasm)

Starting with Leyline in play does seem very strong, but I dont like to add the additional pressure on the mulligans by playing Leylines. Though it could be pretty handy if you expect an abundance of ANT/TES/Burn.

[4eak]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Dredge&format=Legacy

In the past 2 months, for every one LED Dredge deck that makes top 8, there are ten Non-LED Dredge decks that top 8.



peace,
4eak

[death]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Dredge&format=Legacy

In the past 2 months, for every one LED Dredge deck that makes top 8, there are ten Non-LED Dredge decks that top 8.



peace,
4eak

This doesn't automatically mean one build is superior to the other. This may mean, among other things, that LED-Dredge is less played due player preference or cost of the cards. Unless we have data on % in the field vs. top 8 penetration, only then can we make a judgment.

In the end, I'll always play the LED version because of it's explosiveness and I simply don't want to worry about M. Missteps ruining my first turn discard outlet.

[4eak]

The same argument, of course, can be made for Legacy decks in general. Which is fine, I agree with you to some extent - I absolutely must accept that what you've pointed out is a possibility.

I disagree, however, about whether or not we can reasonably make a judgement before we have the data you expect. In part, I disagree about the strength of the data you expect (assuming you are pointing towards the example spreadsheets we've seen from authors of magic articles). It isn't as good as you think it is. When you sit down to do monte carlo simulations of tournaments or even try to find something as simple as the matchup percentages between 2 decks, and you begin to recognize the magnitude of games that have to played to reasonably know things about magic, you'll see that even if we had the data from all of these tournaments of the type that you are talking about, it still wouldn't be significant enough to give us an acceptable degree of certainty.

Now, I'm not throwing away what you've said, I'm just disagreeing with what justifies and counts as reasonable judgements. Essentially, we have varying levels of confidence in our judgements because there are varying degrees of empirical or inductive strength. By all means, let me be the first to question what we actually 'know' about magic and metagaming. I'm far from certain about most of my judgements I make in magic and metagaming, but I certainly think I've got reasonable judgements from the evidence I do have.

It seems like we an acceptably strong inductive argument about how Non-LED dredge is consistent, powerful, and plenty good enough to make top 8's. Further, while I've not given proof, the data you can possibly expect doesn't count as proof either. I don't think it is unreasonable to look at this data and then go on to believe or make the judgement that Non-LED dredge really might be the better evolution of the deck. I think we do this all the time in general metagaming.


peace,
4eak

[Octopusman]

What are your thoughts about this?

An opponent says "Why didn't you cabal therapy me game 1, turn 1, instead of casting your discard outlet to see if I was capable of countering it?"

If I open with a land (that makes black), dredger, pimp, cabal therapy and 3 randoms and it is game 1 against an unknown opponent, what wins games more often?

What I think: Overall, you're going to experience more turn 1s against unknown opponents who do not Force of Will (or Mental Misstep, doh!) than who will.

I'm playing a breakneck LED version which is an all-in kind of deck. So, if I didn't know what my opponent is playing, shouldn't I just cast the discard outlet?

Appreciate opinions.

[Wakkarr]

What are your thoughts about this?

An opponent says "Why didn't you cabal therapy me game 1, turn 1, instead of casting your discard outlet to see if I was capable of countering it?"

If I open with a land (that makes black), dredger, pimp, cabal therapy and 3 randoms and it is game 1 against an unknown opponent, what wins games more often?

What I think: Overall, you're going to experience more turn 1s against unknown opponents who do not Force of Will (or Mental Misstep, doh!) than who will.

I'm playing a breakneck LED version which is an all-in kind of deck. So, if I didn't know what my opponent is playing, shouldn't I just cast the discard outlet?

Appreciate opinions.

I assume this means you are on the play.

It depends on your metagame. Do they know you are playing dredge? e.g. If you have a high percentage of Merfolk/Bant decks and the rest of the meta is quite slow (no ANT/Belcher etc...) then I would cast Therapy, especially if they know you are playing dredge, since a good blue opponent will not keep a 7 cards hand without a way to stop a discard outlet. Whereas if your meta is more aggro/rock/combo based, then just cast the Imp, since you dont want to get Thoughtseized or just get raced by a good aggro draw by throwing away your first turn with a Therapy. If you only have the one land in hand, then cast the outlet also means you are not just cold to wasteland. It would be awkward to cast Therapy naming Force and see a bunch of Goblins and a Wasteland...

As the meta adjusts to include Mental Misstep there will probably be fewer Dazes being played as the tempo decks accomodate a set of MM, so choosing to be on the draw would help this situation a lot, as the risk of getting your turn 1 play dazed drops, and you cant really play arounf Force/MM without using excessive resources and exposing yourself to other problems (wasteland). You could just draw to 8 and discard if they lead with a blue land, then cast your spells once you have established more than 1 dredge card in your graveyard through DDD. Even if they are playing aggro you should still be able to race them. Combo would be a bit tircky, as would decks playing an abundance of 1cmc targeted discard. So it really depends on your read on the metagame and of your opponent.

The 'all in' decks need to be especially careful of getting blown out by disruption. While the LED-Less builds run enough permenant outlets to recover from the bad situation of getting outlets countered (you have more outlets which dont require you to dump all the other spells you wanted to cast), as well as play around hate by not dumping everything to an LED.

[Gui]

What are your thoughts about this?

An opponent says "Why didn't you cabal therapy me game 1, turn 1, instead of casting your discard outlet to see if I was capable of countering it?"

If I open with a land (that makes black), dredger, pimp, cabal therapy and 3 randoms and it is game 1 against an unknown opponent, what wins games more often?

What I think: Overall, you're going to experience more turn 1s against unknown opponents who do not Force of Will (or Mental Misstep, doh!) than who will.

I'm playing a breakneck LED version which is an all-in kind of deck. So, if I didn't know what my opponent is playing, shouldn't I just cast the discard outlet?

Appreciate opinions.

On the play, I would play the outlet. if the guy misses to counter it, chances are that he missed the game, since I will dredge, therapy, and possibly re-therapy. I agree, blue decks usually got an out for T1 broken plays, but if he kept daze, he missed to counter. If he kept FoW, he just 2-for-1'd; and if he mull'd to either, he 2-for-1'd or 3-for-1'd, things considered. By second turn, I therapy myself.

On the draw, if they drop blue mana generator/fetch, I'd DDD the first turn, and the second if I didn't hit a Dredger in the first.

The suggested move looks worse than DDD. You will have 5 cards, and if you miss his counter, and he is actually able to counter, you will sit for more 3 turns, while in DDD mode, you'd sit for 2 turns (on the play) and still have the therapy and the outlet.

[2nd_lawl]

1) Proof? I don't exactly stalk the deck check replacements but most of the dredge decks i've seen place anywhere recently have all been non-LED. I don't think I've met or played with anyone who has had the opinion that LED version is more consistant. Can I see your list? I'd love to test your build and put it thorugh it's paces on my own to decide if it is or isnt less consistant, since from all the results and prior testing I've done it hasn't stood up to non-LED.


Basically lets say in a generic dredge deck you have X outlets, Y Lands, and Z Dredgers. Normally you want a hand with XYZ, but if some of your discard outlets are LED's then some number of hands with just XZ are keepable.



2) I'm likely not going to be trying to fit more 1cc spells in my deck, I'm just going to roll deep with the 16-20 (if you count breakthrough) maindeck discard outlets that I have at 1cc. They only have 4 FoWs and 4 Missteps. Even then they may yet swap out daze for Misstep.... I've never had a problem before as 1 counterspell isn't going to stop you, typically, and that isn't going to change becuase they have 4 other conditional counters.

3) Leyline of Sanctity is good, I'll grant you that. They fluctuate in and out of my board as I feel necessary and are likely to make a more permanent residency in my board at some point soon. So I can't really speak ill here on this card.

Except you as the dredge, player have no leeway in what hands you can keep: you would snap keep a hand like Land, pimp, pimp, Grave troll, thug, Ichorid, Dread return. Except this hand is pretty cold to MM + wasteland (its also cold to FOW + wasteland, but the fact that MM does not require pitching a card means that you have fewer turns on average to find some more action before you lose.) Game 1, an opponent will almost never FOW your LED unless they know what you are playing(protip: dont show them your deck while shuffling).


The same argument, of course, can be made for Legacy decks in general. Which is fine, I agree with you to some extent - I absolutely must accept that what you've pointed out is a possibility.

I disagree, however, about whether or not we can reasonably make a judgement before we have the data you expect. In part, I disagree about the strength of the data you expect (assuming you are pointing towards the example spreadsheets we've seen from authors of magic articles). It isn't as good as you think it is. When you sit down to do monte carlo simulations of tournaments or even try to find something as simple as the matchup percentages between 2 decks, and you begin to recognize the magnitude of games that have to played to reasonably know things about magic, you'll see that even if we had the data from all of these tournaments of the type that you are talking about, it still wouldn't be significant enough to give us an acceptable degree of certainty.

Now, I'm not throwing away what you've said, I'm just disagreeing with what justifies and counts as reasonable judgements. Essentially, we have varying levels of confidence in our judgements because there are varying degrees of empirical or inductive strength. By all means, let me be the first to question what we actually 'know' about magic and metagaming. I'm far from certain about most of my judgements I make in magic and metagaming, but I certainly think I've got reasonable judgements from the evidence I do have.

It seems like we an acceptably strong inductive argument about how Non-LED dredge is consistent, powerful, and plenty good enough to make top 8's. Further, while I've not given proof, the data you can possibly expect doesn't count as proof either. I don't think it is unreasonable to look at this data and then go on to believe or make the judgement that Non-LED dredge really might be the better evolution of the deck. I think we do this all the time in general metagaming.


peace,
4eak
Firstly the data-set you linked is a complete joke. Magic-league tournaments? A tournament in Standish Maine? How many people do you think were there? The vast majority of those top 8's are small local tournaments. If you look at just the data for large tournaments(say over 100 people) you will find the ratio is closer.

I think dredge has some special qualities that make me doubtful of trying to say that non-LED versions are "statistically better" in fact, at the boston open, there were exactly 2 dredge players in the top 32, one was me and one was another LED player. If non-LED versions are more played and they are(lets be real here, alot of the dredge players play dredge because it is inexpensive, although I think that anyone who chooses a deck based on price is doing it wrong) then of course they are going to place well more often. I play dredge because It is the deck that i have the most experence with(although I have the resecources to build basically everything except high tide) and I have consistently performed with it: making top 32 at both SCG opens ive been to this year. Furthermore, dredge is for sure a deck that if you are running well, it barely matters what list you are playing as long as it is reasonable. Ive never had the "consistency" problems that supposedly plague LED versions. When I lose with the deck I can almost always point to some decision I made that was incorrect, or sometimes my opponents just "have it all" in the postboard games, I never wished my LED's were anything else, in fact when you are in a bad spot often LED is the ONLY card that can win you the game.

No, it doesnt defy logic, and it is supported by results. Playing a build with LED and Deep Analysis means you have to cut important pieces. Usually 2 Lands and 4 Tireless Tribe. This means it is harder to find a land to play your 1cmc spells, leading to more mulligans, and reducing the number of permenant dicscard outlets makes you far more likely to fizzle due to cracking an LED, but not hitting another dredger once you drdge back the first dredger you discard with the LED.


It seems unlikely that many decks will run that much permission, other than Merfolk, since Daze will probably be replaced by MM for the most part, since Bant/Team America they would have to cut threats or other better disruption than Daze.

What do you suggest ? It seems kinda pointless to say "X will not work" without suggesting an alternative. I think against a deck playing that much perissions you can afford to choose to draw and just DDD. If 10+ 'free' counterspells becomes the norm for blue decks, then builds with 4 Ichorid, 4 Cabal Therapy, and possible even Bloodghast may become the norm for Dredge.

The alternative im suggesting is to play LED obviously. And I ALREADY play 4 therapy 4 ichorid. Playing less than 4 therapy seems insaine to me.




Why would you side out LED? If it makes the deck more consistant then surely it should always stay in. (sarcasm)

Starting with Leyline in play does seem very strong, but I dont like to add the additional pressure on the mulligans by playing Leylines. Though it could be pretty handy if you expect an abundance of ANT/TES/Burn.

I usually side it out against decks vulnerable to firestorm. I generally would NOT side it out in the mirror or against combo decks. That just leaves control decks: frequently ill just watch them while they sideboard to try and get a read and change the deck accordingly.

[4eak]

@ 2nd_lawl


Firstly the data-set you linked is a complete joke.

I'm already arguing that. I hope I was clear about my doubt. Just looking at the +100 person tournaments, however, is also a joke. For now, tournament data isn't the holy grail; our current level of tournament data is just too small. It is the best we've got though, and so we've gotta make it work.

The data I put forth (which I'm hoping is better than nothing) is the best I've seen. It is what I have to work with, the conclusions I draw are the best I can do. And, yes, I actually am interested in tournament data smaller than 100 people.


If you look at just the data for large tournaments(say over 100 people) you will find the ratio is closer.

It is closer. For this year, even limiting ourselves to +100 person tournaments, the ratio in placement of Non-LED to LED is still ~7.5 to 1. I'm certainly not saying LED Dredge isn't playable, far from it. But, I have good reason to doubt your LED bias, even without penetration %'s, and even if the ratio is closer given your specifications with the data we do have.



peace,
4eak

[Wakkarr]

Basically lets say in a generic dredge deck you have X outlets, Y Lands, and Z Dredgers. Normally you want a hand with XYZ, but if some of your discard outlets are LED's then some number of hands with just XZ are keepable.

LED is only a land if you also have a Deep analysis in that hand, since saccing it means you didnt actually get to use that mana. You just paid 0 mana and discarded your whole hand in your XZ situation. Plus the fact that LED builds pretty much have to run fewer lands than LED-less to fit in LED means that getting an XZY scenario is more probably in an LED-Less build. Not to mention the fact that permenant discard outlets are far superior once resolved compared to LED.




Except you as the dredge, player have no leeway in what hands you can keep: you would snap keep a hand like Land, pimp, pimp, Grave troll, thug, Ichorid, Dread return. Except this hand is pretty cold to MM + wasteland (its also cold to FOW + wasteland, but the fact that MM does not require pitching a card means that you have fewer turns on average to find some more action before you lose.) Game 1, an opponent will almost never FOW your LED unless they know what you are playing(protip: dont show them your deck while shuffling).

Against a deck playing MM and Force you should be DDD'ing, but I assume you mean we have no idea what they are on. I am pretty sure most of our hands are vulnerable to double-awesome card draw. As I said before, if MM and Force becomes the norm, then choose to draw and play it safe. Running an LED out assuming they wont force it seems risky in itself, as does cracking it as your only way to get cards in the yard, since you now have no acceleration and no permenant outlet in play. e.g. If you crack your LED and pitch one dredger and dont hit another one then you are boned.



I think dredge has some special qualities that make me doubtful of trying to say that non-LED versions are "statistically better" in fact, at the boston open, there were exactly 2 dredge players in the top 32, one was me and one was another LED player. If non-LED versions are more played and they are(lets be real here, alot of the dredge players play dredge because it is inexpensive, although I think that anyone who chooses a deck based on price is doing it wrong) then of course they are going to place well more often. I play dredge because It is the deck that i have the most experence with(although I have the resecources to build basically everything except high tide) and I have consistently performed with it: making top 32 at both SCG opens ive been to this year. Furthermore, dredge is for sure a deck that if you are running well, it barely matters what list you are playing as long as it is reasonable. Ive never had the "consistency" problems that supposedly plague LED versions. When I lose with the deck I can almost always point to some decision I made that was incorrect, or sometimes my opponents just "have it all" in the postboard games, I never wished my LED's were anything else, in fact when you are in a bad spot often LED is the ONLY card that can win you the game.

I always found that LED was strong when I was trying to be a combo deck and do unfair things on turn 1/2, but caused issues when sideboarding and having to deal with hate. In environements like the SCG 5K's in March, which showed little graveyard hate, I think LED dredge would perform almost identically to LED-less, but running more lands and being able to play slow games more effecticly by running more permenant discard outlets makes grinding out wins that much more do-able.



The alternative im suggesting is to play LED obviously. And I ALREADY play 4 therapy 4 ichorid. Playing less than 4 therapy seems insaine to me.

The problem with justifying the use of LED because it cant be hit by MM is that the same argument can be applied to DDD'ing, if you play an LED, land and Careful Study/Breakthrough, and crack LED in respone, they can just MM/Force the Study/Breathrough, so you are no better off than if you had DDD'd.

I was refering to the fact that many Ichorid decks run 3 Ichorids and 3 Cabal Therapies, the list that came 2nd at a SCG 5L was running 2 Ichorids. I am suggesting that a full set of both will become the norm, since DDD'ing will be both necessary and better in a format filled with MM and tempo decks.

[Octopusman]

I was refering to the fact that many Ichorid decks run 3 Ichorids and 3 Cabal Therapies, the list that came 2nd at a SCG 5L was running 2 Ichorids. I am suggesting that a full set of both will become the norm, since DDD'ing will be both necessary and better in a format filled with MM and tempo decks.

First of all, thanks for the replies.

I was thinking quite a bit and I do agree that DDD is going to be used quite a bit. Getting a FoW with therapy is nice until you see that they also have a MM. They basically have 8 FoW against our best spells now.

[Wakkarr]

First of all, thanks for the replies.

I was thinking quite a bit and I do agree that DDD is going to be used quite a bit. Getting a FoW with therapy is nice until you see that they also have a MM. They basically have 8 FoW against our best spells now.

That isnt scary, since MM cant stop a Dread Return, and you can just wait for another therapy if you want to resolve breakthrough.

[Octopusman]

That isnt scary, since MM cant stop a Dread Return, and you can just wait for another therapy if you want to resolve breakthrough.

True enough, but if I've cast therapy, even if I'm on the draw that will be three turns before I can dredge via DDD. Four if I'm on the play. Also, the odds of getting a 2nd therapy that soon isn't that great. Am I missing something?

[Wakkarr]

True enough, but if I've cast therapy, even if I'm on the draw that will be three turns before I can dredge via DDD. Four if I'm on the play. Also, the odds of getting a 2nd therapy that soon isn't that great. Am I missing something?

I was refering to casting it from your yard. i.e. Dont cast the Therapy in your hand, draw to 8, dredge. Repeat utiil you get a free dude in play, idealy with a Cabal therpay in the yard as well, so you never have to go below 7 cards. You probably want at least one spare dredger in your yard, then flashback/cast from hand naming force, then either cast the one in hard or flashback the once you just played to hit any other permission, then once the path is clear you cast your spells that you want to resolve, i.e. Study/Breakthrough.

Because this is substantially slower than just running your spells out, and you may be playing around a force/MM that isnt there, I think it is important to always understand how fast you need to be. Are you playing against a deck with 12 counterspells and barely any threats? Or an Aggro deck that just happens to be playing some free permission. Such as a Merfolk deck playing 12 lords. As well as decks like Doomsday/Show and Tell. Playing slow may just let them cast a turn 2 doomsday and get an emrakul before you can do anyhting about it because you were too cautious.

[2nd_lawl]

LED is only a land if you also have a Deep analysis in that hand, since saccing it means you didnt actually get to use that mana. You just paid 0 mana and discarded your whole hand in your XZ situation.


So?
I do this all the time, On the play its faster than DDD, and even on the draw you can still DDD and just sandbag the LED until you dredge a DA.



I always found that LED was strong when I was trying to be a combo deck and do unfair things on turn 1/2, but caused issues when sideboarding and having to deal with hate.

Leyline of sanctity allievates this problem. Now you can be a combo deck in Every game!

[Wakkarr]

So?
I do this all the time, On the play its faster than DDD, and even on the draw you can still DDD and just sandbag the LED until you dredge a DA.


So that means you are still loozing for an XYZ situation. In which Z is Deep Analysis. Considering your entire point was that LED gave you hand that were keepable with just two cards, that it actually doesnt becaause you need a third to be better than a DDD situation means your point is moot, since playing more lands in a nonLED version (14-15 compared to your 11 + 8 permenenant outlets) means the XYZ situation is way more probably in LEDless builds.

DDD'ing until you hit a deep analysis seems quite strong,. I like the ability to run into acceleration which doesnt rely on having 3 dudes (DR a sphinx) or playing lands (everything else), but if you I suspect if you wait 3 turns then run out an LED, they will probably use the force if they have it. But it does still seems decent, though still reliant on resolving spells. The fact that you much have an LED in hand to even consider it though is pretty awkward. Since with 11-12 lands you are unlikely to pay its cost off lands a whole lot, especially if you are relying on DDD.



Leyline of sanctity allievates this problem. Now you can be a combo deck in Every game!

At the cost of boarding in a card which adds to the inconsitancy of the deck by not hitting plenty of the GY hate, as well as cutting cards which do much better things from the MD, i.e. If you are cutting accelerators/Ichorids to play Leyline then you are already slowing the deck down. Plus considering you were arguing the XYZ siuation before, making it a WXYZ situation doesnt help much.

[mcfarland]

Hey guys,

I've been playing an LED-less build for a while, and I'm having a lot of success with what I've been running. There's a 1K tournament on May 14th here in San Diego, and I was planning on taking Dredge to it since my card pool is restricted at the moment.

It will be the first time playing the deck after NPH's release, so I'm trying to prepare my list for this (questionable) meta. Normally, I'd expect lots of aggro from the local players, and I think that MMs are going to be running rampant because of the hype. For these reasons, I want to run Firestorm main, but I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut and how to arrange the board. I need some help.

My 'standard' list:

// Lands
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [TSP] Greater Gargadon
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

Edit: Also want to find a way to up Therapy to 4, as I think it's a good choice vs. MM.

Thanks in advance for any input,
Mike :)

[Vandalize]

Hey guys,

I've been playing an LED-less build for a while, and I'm having a lot of success with what I've been running. There's a 1K tournament on May 14th here in San Diego, and I was planning on taking Dredge to it since my card pool is restricted at the moment.

It will be the first time playing the deck after NPH's release, so I'm trying to prepare my list for this (questionable) meta. Normally, I'd expect lots of aggro from the local players, and I think that MMs are going to be running rampant because of the hype. For these reasons, I want to run Firestorm main, but I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut and how to arrange the board. I need some help.

My 'standard' list:

// Lands
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [TSP] Greater Gargadon
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

Edit: Also want to find a way to up Therapy to 4, as I think it's a good choice vs. MM.

Thanks in advance for any input,
Mike :)

Nice list, I'd move FKZ or Iona to sideboard instead of the 3rd Greater Gargadon, and add the 4th Therapy. I'd also try to fit some Ancient Grudges in that sb, as well.

[Charlatan]

Nice list, I'd move FKZ or Iona to sideboard instead of the 3rd Greater Gargadon, and add the 4th Therapy. I'd also try to fit some Ancient Grudges in that sb, as well.

Iona is a good Sb against what?

[Wakkarr]

Iona is a good Sb against what?

Burn. They can remove bridges easily, so having a DR target which just says "you cant cast spells, ever" is good. Though Ancestors Chosen does the same thing.

High Tide/ANT. When you are tring to race the combo decks its good to have another DR target which slows them down so much. While ANT can potentially find a bounce spell if you name black, being able to slow them down so much should give your more than enough time to win. Plus, unlike FKZ, it does this even when you dont have a few Bridges.

Mirror. Bridges dont last long, so FKZ is often awkward. Iona on black prevents any saccing to Therapies/DR, so you are just fighting and Ichorid/Narc war. It isnt ideal, but it is just something that is useful to hit so you have more ways of getting ahead.

Combo Elves. Same as High Tide, with Iona resolved they cant combo. And it does this all the time, whereas an FKZ for anything less than letal gives them a turn to combo, so you are at the mercy of hitting enough Bridges.

The fact that Iona is only amazing in a handful of matchups means that it is probably worth Sb rather than MD play. But it is still nice just to have access to it when you play against combo or jsut think you really need a way to shut down their shenanigans.

[Sunsatzu]

while everyone is saying how Mental Misstep hurts Dredge, they fail to see 3 possible gains for Dredge

1st- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite- while some of you may say this is obvious, this helps oh so much against Goblins and Elves, which were previously a race that we could easily lose. Elesh Norn is better than Ancestor's Chosen against any aggro deck, even making the Merfolk MU a slam dunk when before we had to hope our Chosen gained enough life or Troll was big enough due to Relics.

2nd- Surgical Extraction- yes, you read that right. my reasoning is that if decks like Affinity and Junk run Extirpate over Crypt/Relic, surely decks like Zoo and Merfolk will now run the much more flexible SE in favor of said artifacts. seeing as we normally fight Extirpate with by therapy'ing them for it, people turning to SE help us stay proactive post sb rather than having to play reactive cards like Ancient Grudge. there will still be corner cases for Relic such as Trinket Mage decks, but ive never had much trouble with them anyways.

3rd- Gitaxian Probe- its Street Wraith, but instead of helping Ichorid, which has never needed help, we can now not only know what we're facing but make our Cabal Therapy's so much more accurate.

a note about Mental Misstep- the only deck thios really upgrades imo is Merfolk, it just replaces another counter in most any other blue deck....but that doesnt mean my deck doesnt take it into account


4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid - i dont know bout you, but i rarely Ichorid out my opponent in the first game
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths / Eternal Witness / Iona, Shield of Emeria - not one is right or wrong imo
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough - you ever played more than one in a game?
2 Deep Analysis
2 Careful Study
2 Gitaxian Probe - "58 card deck", comes out in game 2 and 3 against familir decks, makes sb'ing easier
2 Tolarian Winds - 'slight' reaction to MM, plus ive never personally tested it
2 Dread Return

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal - makes casting TW and Breakthrough for one much easier
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Leyline of the Void - in case you hadnt noticed, Dredge is popular again
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ichorid
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Depair

[Wakkarr]

Elesh Norn isnt very good for us. Unless you anticipate needing wipe a board of Empty Warrens tokens, then I;d leave it at home. Since it seems fairly redundant to make your other dudes fatter, when you have just got a more agressive creature and killed them. (FKZ)

I would disagree with you about extraction, but its does seem like people want to play it for some reason. Which is great for us, if they cut relics/crypt in favor of a 'free' extirpate so they can have fun playing new cards, then we win big I think.

Probe is cool, no doubt. The question is where do you cut cards? Cutting dredger is obv bad, lands?, other accelerators? Ultimatly I think playing probe means you cut cards which are simply more powerful just to run a 'free' spell. i.e. Cutting Careful Study reduced your outlets

DDDing will be more important once MMM is released, so running only 2 Ichorid doesnt seem good.

You probably shouldnt run Tolarian Winds with only 13 sources you can use for it. Its going to be a blank alot. If you werent running LED and were instead playing 16-17 sources, then it would be fine.

I have cast breakthrough more than once in a game. Lots of times. But I am playing LEDless so I run more lands.

[mcfarland]

Nice list, I'd move FKZ or Iona to sideboard instead of the 3rd Greater Gargadon, and add the 4th Therapy. I'd also try to fit some Ancient Grudges in that sb, as well.

Thanks!

I've considered changing/lowering my MD Dread Return targets too, but I'm really in love with Iona in there. I find that she's pretty good against, well... most things. A lot of games are won on her back, and I can only remember a few times that she's hit the field in a game that I ended up losing. With that said, many times she might just act as a 'win more', and if that's the case, then she might find more utility in the SB.

I agree, I really want Grudges in there. The leylines and Gargadon are really good in some cases, but I feel like those and Nature's Claims are the spots that I'll have to move around. I'm thinking something like this:

2-3 Return targets
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
2-3 Firestorm
0-3 Gargadon

[Joe_C]

Pretty sure I'm playing dredge today. My list:

4 city of brass
4 cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
2 tarnished citadel

4 putrid imp
4 tireless tribe
4 narcomoeba
4 golgari grave troll
4 golgari thug
4 stinkweed imp
3 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
4 bridge from below
4 careful study
4 ichorid
2 dread return
1 Iona , shield of emeria

Sb

4 ancient grudge
4 natures claim
1 woodfall primus
1 ancestor's chosen
2 ray of revelation
3 firestorm


This post is lacking content, especially for being in the DTB forum. So far, this is only slightly better than telling me what you ate for breakfast because it at least has something to do with magic. Any special thoughts on why you are choosing dredge at all, or why you are choosing this specific list of Dredge?
--4eak

[Tacosnape]

@Sunsatzu:

Surgical Extraction's a weak choice. Leyline is better, and Faerie Macabre at least feeds Ichorid and reanimated GGT's after it's used.

Gitaxian Probe is also a weak choice. In dredge, you want your cards to do at the minimum, one of three things:

1. Be relevant in the graveyard or by being put into the graveyard from your library.
2. Put a ton of cards into your graveyard.
3. Produce mana.

Gitaxian Probe doesn't do 1, doesn't do 3, and does a poor job at #2. And while you can argue it makes your deck smaller, it runs into the same problem that Belcher runs into with Street Wraith: You don't know what the card's going to be until after you make the decision to keep the hand.

Lotus Petal and Tolarian Winds are interesting choices. I can see where going Land, Petal, Winds on the play for 4 or draw for 5 would just be sick, but it seems worse than Breakthrough, who drops the dredgers back in your yard in the process, so I can't see running Winds when you don't yet have 4 Breakthroughs main.

I wonder if the one-shot potential of Petal makes it worth it. My gut feeling is that it probably won't be. Although I'm intrigued to try a couple random copies of Chrome Mox and see what comes of it.

[I am the brainwasher]

If the future test results really show up that Dredge will become a lot weaker due to Mental Misstep and a some how bit changed meta I think that replacing some CC1 discard outlets CAN be a fine choice. I think it is not that hard to cut some 4 ofs to 3 ofs and play a bit (yes I mean really a bit, I wouldnt play more than 3 of one CC2 outlets as far as I can imagine yet) of other discard outlets.
Obviously the best are Tolarian Winds because it can win a game on its own and Zombie Infestation because its removal proof and creating Zombies by discarding cards fit really well into Dredges gameplan.
As pointed out above, if Dredge is hurt that much I will try out like such a list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand

4 Putrid Imp
2-3 Zombie infestation
2 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2-3 Tolarian Winds
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Terastodon
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Thoughtseize/Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elesh Norn/Massacre Wurm
1 Realm Razer
3 Null Rod


To be honest, I am not convinced yet that Dredge will be a lot more weak but preparing a bit doesnt hurt IMO.
I am rather thinking of testing intensely after a few weeks/months when most decks decided if they play MM or not and then imroving the game-plan and decisions you make when you face a deck that packs MM. Against most DDD seems still fine, curious what time will tell... .

[igri_is_a_bk]

Why don't we stick to the established list with strong 1 cmc outlets until we have a good idea of how strong MM actually is against us. There is no way we need to be changing the deck this soon, we haven't figured out if we actually got hurt enough by it yet.

And this has been said already in the thread, but if MM does hurt us more than I think it will, then we overload the 1 cmc spot to overrun a deck using MM. I don't think we slow ourselves down by using TW and ZI.

I think we're jumping the gun on this one. How bout you?

[Gui]

Why don't we stick to the established list with strong 1 cmc outlets until we have a good idea of how strong MM actually is against us. There is no way we need to be changing the deck this soon, we haven't figured out if we actually got hurt enough by it yet.

And this has been said already in the thread, but if MM does hurt us more than I think it will, then we overload the 1 cmc spot to overrun a deck using MM. I don't think we slow ourselves down by using TW and ZI.

I think we're jumping the gun on this one. How bout you?

The more I think, the more I believe further tests with the current cookie-cutter list has to be done against MM to direct the choice. Something I can say is that I'm thinking that DDD for the first dredger seems more sexy then we give it credit. To be honest, if I get convinced that MM is something to be faced, my first change to the list shall be -1 Tireless Tribe or Putrid Imp, and +1 Golgari Thug to 13 Dredgers, and just DDD in the first game even when I have an outlet, even if that means going "draw" if I win the die roll.

[Kaslan]

I've been testing a dredge with 17 lands ( yes yes 17 ) and it's been very consistent.



4 X NARCOMOEBA
4 x putrid imp
4 x Tolarian Winds
2 x ichorid
4 x golgari grave-troll
2 x golgari thug
4 x stinkweed imp
1 x Angel of Despair

4 x polluted delta
4 x cephalid coliseum
4 x underground sea
4 x darkslick shores
1 x island

4 x caball therapy
2 x dread return
4 x careful study
4 x breakthrough
4 x bridge from below

sb:

3 x pithing needle
4 x leyline of the void
4 x chain of vaper
1 x massacre wurm ( will be Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite when it comes out )
2 x null rod
1 x iona

[Sunsatzu]

i have come to the conclusion that running both LED and Winds is a bad idea, u either run LED/DeepAnalysis, or Lotus Petal/Tolarian Winds; in place of TTribe/TarnishedCitadel

from the decklist in my last post

-3 Lotus Petal
-2 Tolarian Winds
+2 Careful Study
+2 Gemstone Mine
+1 Breakthrough

i stand behind 2x Gitaxian Probe for free draw+ therapy info. if you want to know, i cut 2 out of 3 of the following

3rd Ichorid
3rd Deep Analysis
3rd Dread Return

still testing...

@tacosnape

i was talking about Surgical Extraction being played by our opponets, even over Leyline because of 2 reasons

1. u would need 4 Leyline, and 1 in your opening hand as opposed to 3 SE and being able to draw into it
2. no black deck besides Goblins has been running Leyline, not because no one else has caught on but because for most decks there is more versaltility in Extirpate. also ive only seen Leyline in a few Zoo decks. people just still dont respect Dredge it seems

[I am the brainwasher]

"people just still dont respect Dredge it seems "

- I think its more down to people not respecting most Dredge-Players.
I made the experience that there are either rather good players who think most of the time that a complete idiot sits in front of them because hes playing a cheap deck that isnt as resilient as other combo-like decks (which is obviously not the truth) and if the Dredge-Player wins postboard it was sureley just dumb luck or mediocre/unfortunate draws for them
OR
on the other hand all those unexperienced Legacy-Players that left the kitchentable where they used to play with friends (mostly G/R vs. Mono-Black) quite a few months and dipped into the format long enough to understand that a complete moron cant win this MU without 4 Tormods Crypt and 4 Leylines, accepting that their sb is nearly gone at all (not that it would matter...).

Sure this is a bit exaggerated but I bet thats what most Dredge-Players had gone through quite a few times.

[r3dd09]

i feel that Surgical Extraction and Mental Misstep is going to change this deck.

if you get just 1 dredger in the GY, they SE and you're out a 3/4 dredgers.

I'm still building the deck to help my local group play, also it being an inexpensive deck, but i feel that this deck is going to need a face lift after NPH.

Hoping for the best

[Felidae]

@Brainwasher:
You basicly forgot the 3rd point, because we have to face the fact that there are a bunch of idiots who play this deck as well ( because it is cheap and it's rather easy to pilot against people who don't have a clue whats going on). If an experienced player crushes them g2/3, with a little amount of hate, then he won't recognise the true potential of the Ichorid archetyp.
However I have faced more players from category 2 (i.e. player who are unfamiliar with the deck) then people from category 1.

@r3dd09:
We just have to think twice about our decisions now, however removing a dredger is fine, because in G2 we should usually stick a permanent discardoutled anyway to prevent such blowouts.

[Flan R-E]

I hear a lot of people saying "many dredge players suck" but I think a huge part of this is because of a major lack of information about how to go about getting better at this deck.
lots of info about about getting better at Tempo decks, control decks, storm decks and such things, but with dredge it's mostly people saying "yeah lots of bad dredge players."

am i just like totally wrong about this? (please say yes and guide me to info)

EDIT:(I just saw the new Feldman primer on starcity, so.. yeah)

[Sims]

I hear a lot of people saying "many dredge players suck" but I think a huge part of this is because of a major lack of information about how to go about getting better at this deck.
lots of info about about getting better at Tempo decks, control decks, storm decks and such things, but with dredge it's mostly people saying "yeah lots of bad dredge players."

am i just like totally wrong about this? (please say yes and guide me to info)

EDIT:(I just saw the new Feldman primer on starcity, so.. yeah)

To me the best way of getting better at a deck is to play, and play against people better than you. No matter how many times you might lose, you gain valuable information about boarding strategies, what works, what doesn't work, etc.

There are a lack of Dredge primers, at least that i've found, that give you the same amount of information as there are say Tempo Thresh, Merfolk, or Storm primers... but then again there are not many high profile Dredge players as most high profile players gravitate towards decks that are inherently more stable. Until such a player arises and steps up to write up top-shelf primers and take down some wins and high profile t8's/t4's... Then we're stuck doing things the old fashioned way. Trial and Error, and lots and lots of playtesting. Which isn't a bad thing, because you can't learn it all just from reading, you've got to do it and learn it as well.

[Flan R-E]

Thanks for the reply sims, that's basically what i've been doing, but definitely not enough playtesting as of late.

Primers are definitely awesome, and there are also experienced players (of dredge) who I see at LGS who have many vaulable things to say. I was referring more to generic strategy articles being not as obviously applicable to Dredgin' as they are to Dazin'. (or "Trippin'" with mental misstep :P)

I basically try to Identify some mistake I made, how I could've not made it, and how I could have known not to make it in every game I play with the deck, in my current state of non-practice I get about one good tidbit per match.

[chags]

Richard feldman just wrote a primer for scg premium with a very interesting build, any thoughts?

[Sims]

I have to wait for it to go regular, soo... whats that 3 months or 6?

[chags]

Ah, are we allowed to repost content from premium articles? I'm gonna start testing a new list (originating from Feldman and dubbed Fearless Dredge) that looks like this:
Maindeck:
Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Firestorm
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Winds of Change

The main idea is this: playing reactive sideboard cards is bad, it dilutes your hands, makes you make bad mulligan/keep decisions, and only makes it so you are playing "fair" magic. Instead this deck looks to recognize when it is intelligent to go beatdown and when it is intelligent to go combo and which plan is better against forms of expected hate. It then aims to sideboard into making the chosen plan stronger. For example against combo ichorid is far too slow so siding him out and siding in Winds of Change as breakthrough 5-7 makes the match up better since you want to combo fast. DR targets MD are typically win more, consistency is king. Elesh is great in the mirror, aggro decks, and elves combo. Leyline is a nodd to this deck getting more popular. Blightsteel is for painter's servant/other mill strategies...only required for certain metas.

[4eak]

My maindeck is virtually identical, -1 Thug +1 Dark Blast. That card has been pretty awesome in a wide variety of circumstances. Of course, I like that list a lot.

The sideboard I disagree with. Here is what I use:

SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen

It is a giant mistake not to run Ancient Grudges -- it is a waste, even when you are carefully choosing not to overextend, to have to force crypt/relic and then have to rinse and repeat. Grudge very often lets you answer GY hate without having to go that far. Grudge doesn't take a lot of slots, and it does a lot of work. It isn't just for Artifact GY hate though, I've hit many gamewinning Vials and Jittes.

I've also stopped running Leyline for two reasons. First, I finally have a boarding plan that does consistently well against Leyline (and on a sidenote, Wheel as well). +4 Claim +3 Ray; -4 Breakthrough, -2 DR, -1 Darkblast; Obviously, it takes a lot of space, but it is worth it, as it consistently enables you to open/mulligan to a hand with an answer. After popping Leyline, you'll dredge the Rays and always have an answer up for it. And, yes, I think it is worth having a good answer to enchantment GY hate, bringing me to my second point. If Leyline is actually worth using in Dredge because we are that worried about the mirror match (and, admittedly, rare oddities like Lands, which can be handled in other ways), then the rest of the field is going to gear up on GY hate as well -- then it becomes even more important that we devote space to answering GY hate.

I appreciate the winds. For now, with my limited sideboard space, I rely upon DR targets to speed up the deck or answer something specific.



peace,
4eak

[Gui]

No, we are not allowed to copy-paste things from premium articles, although you can discuss them. Although, nothing you posted is big news. The list has beeing played since forever, with only minimal changes.

Firestorm is obviously good, but I dunno if necessary, for it has almost the same speed as DDD.


@4eak
I do that Darkblast instead of Thug thing too, for it is really worth. What do you think about rising the dredgers number to 13, whith the 4th Thug, making DDD chances better (for the possible show of MM)?
(My maindeck has been EXACTLY the same as yours for a while, already)


Edit: I'm stupid, Winds is clealy better than Brainstorm. ><

[Flan R-E]

that sideboard has no outs to leyline of the void.

I imagine this is for more of a Combo Meta, where leyline is not seen?

I can get behind the sideboard plan pretty well except for not having outs to leyline.

(by the way. Starcity articles go regular after 1 month)

[juzamjedi]

What do you people think about Chancellor of the Annex?

The Daze effect in your opening hand is the appealing part. It's certainly no Iona once it's reanimated, but it allows us to have a DR slot that isn't dead in your opening hand.

[Sunsatzu]

what does this site have anything to do with starcitygames?

[chags]

The ideology behind the SB and MD are not mine as I said earlier. The idea is simply that by sideboarding to answer hate we dilute our plan and aim to play fair magic, which is not what this deck wants to do. Instead what it plans to do is side into a more conservative slow roll strategy for facing lots or a fast combo win vs. combo decks, it was designed for an SCG open meta and is the brain child of the combined efforts of Richard Feldman and Max McCall so I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. I am going to try it at least.

[Gui]

The ideology behind the SB and MD are not mine as I said earlier. The idea is simply that by sideboarding to answer hate we dilute our plan and aim to play fair magic, which is not what this deck wants to do. Instead what it plans to do is side into a more conservative slow roll strategy for facing lots or a fast combo win vs. combo decks, it was designed for an SCG open meta and is the brain child of the combined efforts of Richard Feldman and Max McCall so I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. I am going to try it at least.

I can agree with the idea, but there's no non-reactive answer to Leyline, nor there is for a resolved planar void on turn 1. You can win against Tormod's by getting "too much stuff" into grave and then they have to sacrifice it, but if the opposing deck is fast enough, this "non-reactive" answer to tormod's will give them enough time to kill us. And Elesh won't help much if they slow us down, because you'll have to dredge for it, which won't be acomplished if tormods/leyline hit the board before you dredge, and they can sacrifice Tormod's in response to DR too, if they didn't try to slow you down.

I can imagine they side Winds against aggro decks, trying to race them. Well,if they land Tormod's by first turn, Winds won't help much. Specially if aggro-deck-players decide to use Mental Misstep maindeck/postboard, they will be slowing us down a lot.

I think that the answer they gave to combo decks in Winds of Change (#taaaaaake me, to the legend of the moment...#) is better than siding DR targets, but I still think the answer to hate is needed, specially with so many good results posted by the deck.

I'll definitely try to fit winds in my sideboard,

[CabalTherapy]

The ideology behind the SB and MD are not mine as I said earlier. The idea is simply that by sideboarding to answer hate we dilute our plan and aim to play fair magic, which is not what this deck wants to do. Instead what it plans to do is side into a more conservative slow roll strategy for facing lots or a fast combo win vs. combo decks, it was designed for an SCG open meta and is the brain child of the combined efforts of Richard Feldman and Max McCall so I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. I am going to try it at least.

If Feldmen or McCall or whoever would say that jumping from bridges is cool...would you jump too?
These are just name (I don't know them xD.) and they aren't god.
A lot of articles from SCG or other sites are pretty crappy.

[Felidae]

The ideology behind the SB sounds rather dull, as you can't pretend to be in G1 again after they have sided in their hate. It is not about playing "fair" or playing Magic at all, it's about the ability to take away your opponents ability to decide if it is worth to activate his hate or not.
As 4eak said you can easily side in 4 Grudges and still kill on turn 3, because the MD is consinstat enough.

I'm currently running the Darblast as well, killing your own Ichorid befor they sword them as well as a way to deal with Peacekeeper are enough reasons for me to rum them.

Winds of Change and the idea to side them in against Combat sounds pretty good, even if I'd run something like Iona or Choosen in the Side, so we can actually use our tempo advantage (blowing them out with multiple well aimed Therapys would be the allternativ plan).

[chags]

Can't say I'm surprised with the responses, sourcers are notorious for bashing new ideas. I'm not running this in a tournament without testing but I think it is worth testing. Last time someone wrote a prime it was McCall over a year ago and a lot of what he was doing was very different then most dredge players but it worked, and worked well. To get a full idea of how the deck works you would have to have a starcity premium account. I'll let those who are interested know how my testing goes.

[Sims]

I'll probably throw the sideboard and test it out, it's worth a shot. The MD is mine -1 thug +1 darkblast, so I know the maindeck is solid. I Top 8'd a GPT this past weekend with the deck and lost to a mistake on my part g1 of t8 and just got blown out by mull to a poor hand that got blown out by a sandbagged crypt. Thems the breaks.

I'll see if I can borrow a friends premium to look at that article when I get home from work, but the concept behind the sideboard is worth testing. I really like winds of change.

[Gui]

Can't say I'm surprised with the responses, sourcers are notorious for bashing new ideas. I'm not running this in a tournament without testing but I think it is worth testing. Last time someone wrote a prime it was McCall over a year ago and a lot of what he was doing was very different then most dredge players but it worked, and worked well. To get a full idea of how the deck works you would have to have a starcity premium account as I am not going to repeat the primer for people who are too close minded for new ideas. I'll let those who are interested know how my testing goes.

Ok, sorry if I sounded like bashing something, that was certainly not the intention. I was trying to argument against these decisions, looking forward the counter-argumentation, possibly proving me wrong. I don't know about you, but my time is short, and I tend to filter what I think is most worth of testing. I'm really into testing Winds of Change (and the song comes back to stick in mind again... >< ), and Elesh Norn is no huge news to us as well. I just don't get how this sideboard config will beat Leyline/Tormod's/Relic, which are waaay too present in my meta sideboards.

The maindeck is solid, and a lot of people "bashing" just uses the same configuration.

[chags]

The point of the deck being designed this way (SB included) is for consistency in getting a troll out fast. "A win is a win regardless how ugly." Against cards like crypt or relic, first turn therapying for them is a solid plan, also these cards aren't scary as they are board sweepers. Sandbagging a dredger is not a difficult task to do, we all do it when we play aggro against wrath effects. Also its important to recognize its not always correct to dredge every turn, draw if you have dudes on board and crypt is a threat. If you can help it don't put dread returns and ichorids from your hand into your gy unless you win that turn.

Against leyline, jailer, extirpate, extraction, etc. the plan is as follows: Siding chain of vapor as an answer to leyline is no good, game 2 you basically can't ever do it and game 3 you have to draw it as well as an acceptable dredge hand and they have to draw leyline, essentially too much has to go right. Play out some dudes and use your firestorms to hit them for some damage, lets be honest an on the board leyline is almost always gg even with chain hands. Wheel of sun and moon you just have to try to therapy away or play as you would with leyline. Extraction and Extirpate are as we know already bad weapons for fighting this deck due to its redundancy (which is weakened when you side out dredgers and what not for chain of vapors or unmasks). Yixlid Jailer, Teeg, Grunt, and other creatures are all answered by firestorm.

I agree that it feels strange to not be able to answer leyline but to be honest our "answer" for leyline was a stretch to begin with, as are all of our answers to gy hate. We have to have good dredge hands + at least 1 gy hate answer and generally by trying to draw into them or mulligan to them we slow our plan down so much they can just draw into another one. Instead why not forgo all that and play a game of chance? Aren't you already by playing dredge? Why not just hold back a dredger and a draw spell, or wait to blow your coliseum until their eot so that crypt they were holding is less useful? I think the strategy is worth testing, I'm not saying this is the new face of dredge, though others seem to think it is. If anyone else intends on testing it feel free to pm me and we can discuss results.

Disclaimer: Many of these thoughts do not originate from me, I take no credit for conceptualizing any of this strategy, rather I am simply adopting and discussing it.

[Izor]

I think we do understand the reasoning behind that kind of sideboard. It just will not work.

So let's have a closer look. We give up any chance of winning through Leyline of the Void, Yixlid Jailer, Wheel of Sun and Moon and multiple Crypts/Relics/Spellbombs. That's already anough reasons to drop the idea of such a sideboard already, but let's move on.

So the question is: What advantages is it going to have?

Firestorms are good cards and they're already played quite a lot. Usual sbs have space for them, so there's nothing to talk about.

Elesh Norn: Ever heard of the term 'win more'? What do you board it in against? Gobbos? Merfolks? I personally never had any problems crishing them with my main board alone and with Firestorms it's already an unfair battle.

Leyline: Still debatable. Usually one only has space for ether Firestorm or Leyline, he has room for both, Fine.

AoD: Fair enough. Some permanent destroyer is necessary for all Dredge sbs.

Ichorid: I've never needed the 4th one at all, so no option for me.

Blightsteel Colossus: If your metagame is like 90% PainterStone, it's fine. Otherwise, it's unnecessary. Absolutely unnecessary. I mean, there is no other mill deck in the format. High Tide draws you out.

Winds of Change: This is where it gets funny. The idea of Breakthroughs 5-7 is reasonable, but people, are you even serious. That card is like 10 times worse than BT. But well, if you really want your opponent to find his Force or Misstep, go run it.

No, seriously. The Dredge list is already tight. If you want to board something against storm combo I wouldn't even have room for BT 5-7. I take out all 3 Ichorids for sure. And in comes one Ancestor's Chosen and one Iona. The third thing could now be the 5th BT, but I'm also happy with the Terastodon.

EDIT: His main deck is bonkers though. I'm also running it with +1 Darkblast -1 Thug. Currently I also got one Iona main, but that's just a feeling I had...

[Swing4Five]

I think there are two main questions here:

How often do you actually face an opening Leyline in both postboard games of a match?

How often do you win against an opening Leyline with your current sideboard?
______________________________________________________________________

If the answer to both of those questions is "Hardly ever" then why devote 7 valuable slots to cards that don't swing the match around... in a situation that rarely happens?

If the answer to both of those questions is "All the damn time", then you need to examine if it's the Enchantment counter-hate cards are swinging the matchup around. If they are, then keep on crushing with them. If not, what's the point?

If you do see opening Leylines all the time, and hardly ever beat them, regardless of how your board is constructed. The gigs up. Time for a new deck bro. At least until the hate dies down...

Lastly if you've hardly ever seeing Leylines, and managing to beat them when you do, you have to again examine if it is in fact the counter-hate doing the heavy lifting. Then you have to weigh the likely-hood of facing that hate against other uses for those slots.

[chags]

I think there are two main questions here:

How often do you actually face an opening Leyline in both postboard games of a match?

How often do you win against an opening Leyline with your current sideboard?
______________________________________________________________________

If the answer to both of those questions is "Hardly ever" then why devote 7 valuable slots to cards that don't swing the match around... in a situation that rarely happens?

If the answer to both of those questions is "All the damn time", then you need to examine if it's the Enchantment counter-hate cards are swinging the matchup around. If they are, then keep on crushing with them. If not, what's the point?

If you do see opening Leylines all the time, and hardly ever beat them, regardless of how your board is constructed. The gigs up. Time for a new deck bro. At least until the hate dies down...

Lastly if you've hardly ever seeing Leylines, and managing to beat them when you do, you have to again examine if it is in fact the counter-hate doing the heavy lifting. Then you have to weigh the likely-hood of facing that hate against other uses for those slots.

+1
Yes I am cold to leyline of the void but I cannot remember the last time I saw a leyline in play. Almost no one plays it and I'd rather not use the SB slots on it, if it got really popular then reactive cards become necessary. The list I presented is perfectly capable of winning through crypt, relic, jailer, Teeg, bog, spellbomb, trap, extirpate, extraction...the only thing it loses to is leyline and wheel of sun and moon which are rarely played. And any version of deck answer or no answer loses to multiples of any of the listed hate so lets not bother with that argument.

Also obviously blightsteel is there because the deck designer's meta is heavy painter, any moron can cut that card and fill it with a 1 of target like Iona or anything of the like if the meta is not representing painter which is why I didn't bother addressing it in my other posts.

[TheSleeper]

This whole 'reactive vs proactive' SB thing depends on your meta IMO. In our local store, the last 3 months there has only been a total of 2 decks running Leyline of the Void. With those kinds of numbers, you can afford flat out ignore it. I personally would keep 3 Grudge in the SB as its useful against a number of things (someone mentioned Chalice/Jitte earlier). There is no empirical right and wrong SB plan, just will give you the best chance at winning where you play.

[chags]

This whole 'reactive vs proactive' SB thing depends on your meta IMO. In our local store, the last 3 months there has only been a total of 2 decks running Leyline of the Void. With those kinds of numbers, you can afford flat out ignore it. I personally would keep 3 Grudge in the SB as its useful against a number of things (someone mentioned Chalice/Jitte earlier). There is no empirical right and wrong SB plan, just will give you the best chance at winning where you play.

For the most part I agree with you. If your meta involves people playing 5-6 sb cards against dredge or involves leyline/wheel of sun and moon then yes it is probably better to be prepared for some hate. Similarly if your meta is very heavy on path to exile maybe a reanimate target like Iona is in order. Overall though, in an scg meta like this list was set up for, you'll see 2-3 sb cards from your opponents if that, and mostly you will be seeing relics and crypts. Neither of these cards are scary for competent dredge players and usually it requires two crypts/relics to really cause any problem so why bother siding in 3-4 ancient grudge and potentially some nature's claims just to beat them? Grudging chalice in the one game you might see it in 9 rounds is cool and all but you can recur ichorids and flashback dread returns without one drops, it just might be slower. Similarly while jitte can be annoying it is often too slow, this deck is consistent enough to dread return on turns 2-3 (thats testing results not random numbers out of my ass.) Simply put jitte just cannot keep up.

If your meta is gunning hard for dredge then bring in some reactive cards. If you play in a typical meta that does not have a high representation of dredge and dredge hate then you don't need slow reactive cards that cause bad keep/mulligan decisions and don't actually help you win. Dredge is one of the most unfair decks in legacy, embrace and take advantage of that.

[Sunsatzu]

i dont understand playing Wings of Change, Tolarian Winds is 1 mana more, and u get to discard the hand, true, if youve drawn any narcomoebas, they dont go back in the deck, but i still dont see a problem with playing Tolarian Winds. u need a second land for Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough for 1 is common, and between 14-15 lands and 3-4 Careful Study, 2 lands isnt unheard of. u may state that TW is weak if they Wasteland you, but very few people in my experience want to use Wasteland vs Dredge on their second turn (on the play), much less their first turn (on the draw)

my problem is really with Careful Study, which is only good for searching for something better in the draw, discard, or land department, as it is our 'worst' -albeit most versatile- card in the deck (arguments may be made for Tarnished Citadel). i currently run 4 study and 14 land, so i figure 3/15 or 2/16 split of TW and lands is fine.

i believe this decision to be sound with upcoming release of Mental Misstep, and the consensus that it will probably replace Daze in most, though not all decks.

[Tacosnape]

Yes, but is dodging Mental Misstep the right call as opposed to, say, overloading it? It's the same reason why Affinity and Enchantress don't fear Nature's Claim - It can't hit everything.

In other words, what if you replace 2 Careful Studies with lands, and then get a hand where you have the Land and a Study or Land and a Lion's Eye Diamond, whereas without it you'd have had Study/Study or LED/Study?

Study/Study requires them have a Misstep and a second counter. LED/Study requires them have a Misstep and a Force if you're smart (Misstep/Daze or Misstep/Pierce will sometimes also work if they went first.)

Study/Land becomes an unkeepable hand if it's your only outlet. The LED/Land hand can be decent, but it'll eat it hard to a Force of Will and a clock.

[Sunsatzu]

i was talking about replacing all 4 studys with a combination of Tolarian Winds and additional lands to up the percentage of drawing 2 lands in you first 8-9 cards. this is the second time you've made a comment about a post of mine without fully reading it correctly

as i constantly keep telling myself and others, "Read, read, read the fucking card!"

[Sims]

i was talking about replacing all 4 studys with a combination of Tolarian Winds and additional lands to up the percentage of drawing 2 lands in you first 8-9 cards. this is the second time you've made a comment about a post of mine without fully reading it correctly

as i constantly keep telling myself and others, "Read, read, read the fucking card!"

I might be going out on a limb here, but I think he is reading it correctly. It seems more like he's saying that by increasing your land count and cutting study, how many hands are you going to open that will be unkeepable in the face of countermagic or just sheer what your hand consists of compared to how many would have been unkeepable if those winds or lands had been Careful Study.

Study may be one of the weaker cards in the deck, it is one of my most boarded out cards, but it does have a purpose and it's versatility helps make the deck work. Im not bashing or saying it's a tubl idea, but it's one that definitely will require testing or results before really being able to say if it's worthwhile or not.

[HokusSchmokus]

I will just stick to normal LED-less Ichorid in the future.
My Sideboard is where the Magic happens, though:
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Darkblast
1 Realm Razer
1 Terastodon/ Metaslot

Is what I will bring to the table post- NPH. Elesh Norn just completely nullifies the need for Firestorm and Chosen.I don't worry about MM too much, Blue Control decks will most likely only play max.3 of it and in other matchups it's just like having to play around Force vs Goblins (Oo)
Just 1st Turn Therapy instead of discard will do the trick I think.

[Lurker]

So what are we supposed to do against Cephalid Breakfast? Played against it last night. Game 1 he blew me out (combo'd out turn 2). Game 2 I side boarded in Leyline of the Void. Stalled him long enough to get there with reanimated Iona. Game 3 sided in Chain of Vapor in addition (as I had forgot to game 2 in anticipation of graveyard hate from him, but he had none to speak of). Opened with Leyline and played the DDD plan for a bit until I could get there with Ichorids and Zombie tokens. Basically, I won games 2 and 3 because he simply couldn't draw relevant spells (was mostly hitting lands) (I felt like I just got lucky). So what's the game plan there? Iona on black to stop them from Dread return + Leyline of the Void to get there? That was my basic thoughts of what to do given my list.

[Tacosnape]

i was talking about replacing all 4 studys with a combination of Tolarian Winds and additional lands to up the percentage of drawing 2 lands in you first 8-9 cards. this is the second time you've made a comment about a post of mine without fully reading it correctly

as i constantly keep telling myself and others, "Read, read, read the fucking card!"

My point still doesn't change. You're not going to solve your problems by running less discard outlets. Now you run less outlets and are 300 times more vulnerable to Daze and Thoughtseize.

Secondly, since you complain about lack of reading, I'll start dissecting your post more. You claim people don't want to spend a Wasteland on Dredge's first land. Are you on crack? I don't know a single high tier player who wouldn't lead with wasting Dredge's land when Dredge went land, go, and didn't establish anything in the yard. That's practically an auto-play. If Dredge kept a hand and went land go, they clearly have a plan for a second land, or they wouldn't have kept the hand. Wasteland here is almost always the right play, and good players would make it.

I still think the right thing for Dredge to do is to pick up a set of Lion's Eye Diamonds, up the discard outlet count by 2 or 3, and just roll with the punches.

[chags]

I don't think the LED plan is necessary. We have more then enough discard outlets compared to their 4 missteps. Its not 4 more counters in each deck, it is in place of other counters so really we face the same dangers just value your tribes and pimps higher and evaluate leading with them accordingly. If counters become a serious problem then firestorm gains even more value. LED just lowers our consistency and makes us use narrow cards.

[chags]

While Feldman's SB plan was interesting I'm not sure I like it enough to stick with it. I'm thinking of bringing the following to a tournament this weekend:

Maindeck:
3x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Goglari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Tireless Tribe
4x Narcomoeba

2x Dread Return
4x Careful STudy
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:
1x Flame-Kin Zealot (combo)
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria (just wins against some decks)
1x Terastodon
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Ray of Revelation
2x Nature's Claim
4x Ancient Grudge
4x Firestorm

Some things I am still on the fence about:
-1 Golgari Thug +1 Darkblast: While I realize darkblast has utility I don't think it is necessary if I am running four Firestorm which I like in a MM meta. Also it may seem small but the one thing I liked about Feldman's list was the consistency of having 4 careful study and more dredgers that could hit for max amount of cards. My careful study and breakthroughs have felt much better with 4 thug main.

-1 Careful Study +1 Dread Return: The third dread return could be a good thing to have but I don't expect to reanimate more then two times in a game. I am considering moving a Terastodon to the MD in which case maybe a third Dread Return is right. This is the one I am most interested in other people's thoughts on as I can't decide when exactly a third DR is truly necessary.

-1 Careful Study or Thug +1 Terastodon/Angel of Despair: I like having Terastodon somewhere in the 75 for answering random cards and having him in the MD is nice because at the very least you can deny your opponent lands or kill your own to add more to your army. I would love to have him as the only DR target main so I don't lose to moat and the like but if I do this I am wondering if I need to bump up to three DR in the main.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts on the above mentioned things and the list in general, I'm also wondering if my artifact/enchantment answer collection is correct. I went through the SCG Open lists and almost no one uses Ray of Revelation and a lot of people seem to drop below 3 ancient grudge to increase the number of Nature's Claims and free up some SB slots due to the overlap. I don't mind dedicating half my board to beating hate but I do want the best mix possible. This is the one I like best atm but again criticism/thoughts are appreciated.

[mcfarland]

@Chags: The list looks good, but I'm only counting 59 cards main. Personally, I'd opt for a 4th Ichorid.

Stuff you're on the fence about:

Thug vs. DB - With the Firestorms in the board (which I think is a great choice right now), I'm not playing Darkblast at all. There have been times when I've wanted it, but all in all, I'd rather the extra dredger.

Study vs. Return - If I'm playing no MD targets (aside from Troll), I don't like more than 2 DR. Even when I'm playing Iona and FKZ main, I don't always need the 3rd copy.

Study/Thug vs. Terastodon - It's probably a meta call. If I'm playing one MD target, it's going to be Iona. I'll keep Terastodon in the SB, but I don't lose too many game 1's just because of a random permanent. It happens, but not all that much.

[mcfarland]

Re: Sideboard

For me, 4 Grudges seems like too many. Flashback is nice, but at the beginning of the game I'd like something cmc1 to answer hate. I'm also running 1 less land than you are, though.

I've never liked Ray that much, to be totally honest. I want something to answer a T-zero leyline, and again, I'd rather have Chain or Claim.

I'm running 4x Claim, 2x Chain of Vapor, 3x Grudge, and I'm pretty happy with it.

[chags]

The md is 60 cards as is. For the hate answers I talked with a few people and am thinking 1 ancient grudge 4 nature's claim 2 ray of revelation. The only real hate I am scared of is leyline and wheel, the rest we can play through for the most part so loading up on claim vs grudge seems better.

[Joe_C]

I don't really get why anyone cuts an ichorid if you are not running zealot. True that ichorid is a slower path to victory. But game 1 it is inevitable if you get them in your grave, and you want them early and often so running 4 seems the best option to me. Ive been running chags 60 with -1 breakthrough ,+1 ichorid ,-1 citadel, +1 Iona for some time. Having ichorid maxed out makes for turn 2 double therapy all the more likely.

[chags]

I would rather have 4 breakthrough then 4 ichorid for sure. If anything I would cut a careful study or a golgari thug for the ichorid but I don't think 4 is necessary, I haven't played with 4 in a long time. They are good for slow rolling but you rarely need to slow roll game 1 and I prefer having a high number of dredgers and discard outlets to ensure I get to dredge.

[Joe_C]

I would rather have 4 breakthrough then 4 ichorid for sure. If anything I would cut a careful study or a golgari thug for the ichorid but I don't think 4 is necessary, I haven't played with 4 in a long time. They are good for slow rolling but you rarely need to slow roll game 1 and I prefer having a high number of dredgers and discard outlets to ensure I get to dredge.

I can probably count on 1 hand out of hundreds of games that I actually cast breakthrough and it won me games without running the speed kill. True that is an amazing accelerant, but breakthrough is a risky card even game 1. A permanent discard outlet is way more important for victory and ichorid is a path to victory where breakthrough can "whiff" although it is not extremely likely. I never found a need for 4 breakthrough, but I understand why some may want to max it out, but I'd see maxing both ichorid and breakthrough to be a better choice than running 1 less of a card that will win you a game for sure if you get ichorid recurring

[chags]

I can probably count on 1 hand out of hundreds of games that I actually cast breakthrough and it won me games without running the speed kill. True that is an amazing accelerant, but breakthrough is a risky card even game 1. A permanent discard outlet is way more important for victory and ichorid is a path to victory where breakthrough can "whiff" although it is not extremely likely. I never found a need for 4 breakthrough, but I understand why some may want to max it out, but I'd see maxing both ichorid and breakthrough to be a better choice than running 1 less of a card that will win you a game for sure if you get ichorid recurring



A permanent discard outlet is more important then nearly anything else in the deck, I did not argue that breakthrough is more important than a discard outlet. If breakthrough whiffs you are probably using it wrong, if you plan on using ichorid then you clearly have time to win so taking the time to discard dredgers before breakthroughing should be more then doable. Also with 4 thugs 4 imps and 4 trolls breakthrough does not seem to whiff very often.

[Fatal]

Was second on 14 man tournament: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6105&iddeck=44272

Few words about the build:

Its hybrid with LED/LED-less lists.

13 lands - enough to get 2 on draw and also not so annoying when dredging too many lands - I used Undiscovered Paradise as 13th land (don't like Citadel in some aggro MU like burn etc)

MD Angel of Despair - Hate losing vs random MD hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Moat, works good - good body and always useful (u can blow up chasm for etc)

Other targets for DR - Sphinx of the Lost Truths and FKZ - normal combo package.

Discard outlets - 4 Putrid Imps, 3 LEDs, 1 Tireless was very good in speed/stability compromise.
Drawing spells - 4 Careful Study, 4 Breakthrough and additional Deep Analysis to maximize stability and gold fishing with LED.

11 Dredges and here is something new - Life from the Loam - it works so good here that i couldn't imagine.

Trick: Hand: LED, Loam, Deep A, any land, Dredger

Play land, LED crack LED for green/blue (doesn't matter), Deep A, dredge both Loam and Dredger, cast Loam -> have nuts on hand (lands for example Cephalid Coliseum with ********).

Mostly it was used as Coliseum recurring with additional dredger, and avoiding wastelands mana disrupt.

SB:

In meta was Merfolks, U/R painter, Rocks, Zoo, storm combo + other blind meta.

vs merfolks:
2 Darkblast - very useful to blow up cursecatcher waiting for bridges
3 Firestorm - obv board cleaner

vs combo:
-Iona

vs Zoo:
Ancestor's Chosen

vs Painter:
4 Ancient Grundge

vs Hate:
- Terastodon (its needed additional to Angel in Lands MU)
2 Darkblast vs Gaddock Teeg
-2 Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim vs Leyline and Wheel
-4 Ancient Grudge vs Crypts/Relics

Last word about build:
Sometimes I miss 4th Therapy but didn't know what to take off anyway it was 61 cards already.

[Joe_C]

A permanent discard outlet is more important then nearly anything else in the deck, I did not argue that breakthrough is more important than a discard outlet. If breakthrough whiffs you are probably using it wrong, if you plan on using ichorid then you clearly have time to win so taking the time to discard dredgers before breakthroughing should be more then doable. Also with 4 thugs 4 imps and 4 trolls breakthrough does not seem to whiff very often.

How do you use breakthrough wrong? If you have any dredger in the grave you will want to cast it if you want to win quick. If you don't see another dredger in those top 4-6 cards it whiffs. It can happen. I run 4 of all the dredge creatures. Since I run 3 breakthrough when I have it in my hand, I am likely to not mill another breakthrough, yet a card that is useful in my grave

[chags]

Playing breakthrough with just a golgari thug in your yard seems pretty bad. If I didn't have to win in the next turn or so I'd just dredge the thug to see if I hit something better before wasting my breakthrough on a dredge 4 whiff x3.

[rupus]

Was second on 14 man tournament: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6105&iddeck=44272

Few words about the build:

Its hybrid with LED/LED-less lists.

13 lands - enough to get 2 on draw and also not so annoying when dredging too many lands - I used Undiscovered Paradise as 13th land (don't like Citadel in some aggro MU like burn etc)

MD Angel of Despair - Hate losing vs random MD hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Moat, works good - good body and always useful (u can blow up chasm for etc)

Other targets for DR - Sphinx of the Lost Truths and FKZ - normal combo package.

Discard outlets - 4 Putrid Imps, 3 LEDs, 1 Tireless was very good in speed/stability compromise.
Drawing spells - 4 Careful Study, 4 Breakthrough and additional Deep Analysis to maximize stability and gold fishing with LED.

11 Dredges and here is something new - Life from the Loam - it works so good here that i couldn't imagine.

Trick: Hand: LED, Loam, Deep A, any land, Dredger

Play land, LED crack LED for green/blue (doesn't matter), Deep A, dredge both Loam and Dredger, cast Loam -> have nuts on hand (lands for example Cephalid Coliseum with ********).

Mostly it was used as Coliseum recurring with additional dredger, and avoiding wastelands mana disrupt.

SB:

In meta was Merfolks, U/R painter, Rocks, Zoo, storm combo + other blind meta.

vs merfolks:
2 Darkblast - very useful to blow up cursecatcher waiting for bridges
3 Firestorm - obv board cleaner

vs combo:
-Iona

vs Zoo:
Ancestor's Chosen

vs Painter:
4 Ancient Grundge

vs Hate:
- Terastodon (its needed additional to Angel in Lands MU)
2 Darkblast vs Gaddock Teeg
-2 Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim vs Leyline and Wheel
-4 Ancient Grudge vs Crypts/Relics

Last word about build:
Sometimes I miss 4th Therapy but didn't know what to take off anyway it was 61 cards already.

That's a really cool list. I've been experimenting with a similar "hybrid" list. Loam is interesting, I've just heard so many bad things about it that I wrote it off as bad. Some more general thoughts:
I hate darkblast. Sure you can do some cute stuff in the upkeep but there's really no cards that should be scaring you. Mr. Teeg is a joke. Also, I would never not play 4 therapies they are likely the best cards in the deck. Same goes with Ichorid. Recurring Ichorids straight up wins a lot of otherwise tough matchups.

In terms of dr targets iona is trash. She isn't auto win and she doesn't improve any bad matchups. I wouldn't even play her in the board. I'd you're worried about combo get some leds and win faster. Cabal therapy is pro vs combo. Another card that I recently decided to bring back from yesteryear to try out was sadistic hypnotist. I'm not sure if I like him better than FKZ or not but he did win at least one game where fkz wouldn't have been enough vs spiral tides. I'm pretty psyched about elesh norn. However, she doesn't replace firestorm imo. The uncounterability is pretty essential vs. Fishies.

People who say cs is a bad card I think have never played the old led lists w/o it. Cs makes so many more hands keepable. On that same note however, I disagree about led lists being inconsistent and whatever. The last time Dredge was really a big thing everyone was packing leds. Remember when everyone had 8-10 slots of grave hate? Yeah those were led lists they were scared of. I think LEDless builds gained popularity because of budget considerations and its awesome consistency was beat into our heads so everyone believes its the best despite not putting up much in terms of tourney results. (btw didn't an led list recently top 8 an scg tourney?)

I think mm make led that much better. You thought a force on your pimp into a waste on your land was bad? Now everyone has mm and it hits you on the play unlike daze. On a related note I saw someone say something about a tempo deck holding back a waste. Are you shitting me? That's basically the best play ever. Even if they can't force your t1 outlet waste stops stuff like T2 breakthroughs which is generally gg. I think something similar to fatal's list has the most potential.

[Fatal]

Mostly agree on all what u wrote - LED build are much better faster been able to discard and draw in first turn is huge impact. There is only one think when LEDs isn't good:

Situation: U have a lot of draw spells and didn't wanted to discard all hand, if you are playing on blind meta (don't know vs what you playing) just put LED on table and start with Careful Study without cracking LED - if he FoW nothing matter 2-of-1 and u still have your other draw spell.

I also think that 4th Cabal Therapy is needed, about loam its not the best way to with but I would never cut it - won me unwinable games mostly function as additional dredger, wastelands are everywhere and sometimes its hard when u get cursecatcher avoiding zombies recurring - loam win this games.

About Darkbast - it is good in all middle-aggro MU and merfolks keeping offboard cursecatchers, and hierarchs is very good in early game slowing opponent and building gy - take more tests and u also like it :) u can also take off own ichorids in respond to path/stp.

Few words about Iona - I also don't like it she don't stop mostly things which is painful for us, but it has auto win button vs some MU - naming black to avoid pernicous deed/maelstorm pulse is very useful - but it could be probably 4th cabal therapy in this slot.

Last thoughts about playstyle - u don't have to all in on start, build your position/hand/gy if u can and control the board with therapy/ancient grundge/darkblast after board - the worst what u can do is discard all hand and fizzle without knowing opponent hand - mostly time u get crypt/relic/bojuka and the game will be ended.

[Sims]

On that same note however, I disagree about led lists being inconsistent and whatever. The last time Dredge was really a big thing everyone was packing leds. Remember when everyone had 8-10 slots of grave hate? Yeah those were led lists they were scared of. I think LEDless builds gained popularity because of budget considerations and its awesome consistency was beat into our heads so everyone believes its the best despite not putting up much in terms of tourney results. (btw didn't an led list recently top 8 an scg tourney?)

7th place, SCG Charlotte- Chris Piland playing a Non-LED list
12th place, SCG Boston- Justin Russell playing LED Dredge
2nd place, SCG Atlanta- David Thomas playing LED Dredge
6th place, SCG Atlanta- Kristopher Hackelman playing Non-LED,
4th place, SCG LA- Frankie Mach playing Non-LED
9th place, SCG LA- Devyn March playing Non-LED
12th place, SCG LA- Timothy Froehlig playing Non-LED
14th place, SCG LA- Kyle Duhne playing Non-LED Bloodghast
9th Place, SCG Dallas- Daniel Rude with Non-LED Bloodghast

Past 5 SCG tournament top 16's, those are Dredges placings. LED had the highest placing of 2nd, but the lowest number of placings.

I'd also just like to state that I play Non-LED and it isn't for budget concerns. I play Non-LED because I can still win turn 2-3 without it, I can still play from the hand anti-hate, I can still play therapy from hand turn 2 and then cast breakthrough same turn where I couldn't if I just nutted my hand to the yard. I don't like it's play style. I'm not saying it's worse, it is a different style for a different player, but I don't think it's necessarily better than Non-LED.

[chags]

I also play non LED while owning a playset of LEDs. When the deck regularly goes off on turn 2 there is no need to play a more all in version. I play LEDless because permanent discard outlets give you much more options in how to play out the game. LED builds are good at what they do but I prefer discard outlets that remain on the board.

[Joe_C]

The LED version is much worse against merfolk which will indeed pick up popularity will mm in the picture.

[Gui]

The LED version is much worse against merfolk which will indeed pick up popularity will mm in the picture.

I agree with this. The hole discussion about which version should be played just got to something reasonable here. Instead of saying which is more consistant despite of being slower, just analyse match-ups.

Seriously, this discussion about LED being better is even worse than "will mental misstep rule the format" or "should we ban survival" or "are europeans a bunch of noobs because their results are not SCG". At least these discussions are held at their appropriated thread in which you can enter your flame-proof vest and burninate everyone with your personal flamethrower of choice, everyone is there for that reason...

IMO they are different decks that do the same thing, but the choice between one and the other should be kept as a meta call, as for someone choosing ANT over TES or UGw instead of UGRw countertop or <Insert two decks that looks a lot similar here>. If there's no other place to discuss it, fine, do it here, but at least state things as the above mentioned by Joe_C.

There's no way you can state that one is plain better than the other without a gigantic amount of data, and besides, noone will convice people to switch versions with simple arguments anyways (as for discussing religions or politics, or operational systems...)

[chags]

The LED version is much worse against merfolk which will indeed pick up popularity will mm in the picture.

That is arguable, I don't have much experience with fish vs. LED dredge but if you go turn 1 LED on the play the only possible answer is FOW. If you go turn 1 tribe/pimp/study/breakthrough/therapy MM and FOW can both halt your progress. On the draw LED can be countered by daze and FOW but so can all the other cards (+ being counterable by MM). In that sense it is more likely to have an LED hit the board, however wasteland on coliseum can make LED less good. All of this is rather moot though because you can just use firestorm.

[MMHMM]

i have a question about firestorm in the merfolk matchup. do you normally play it out turn 1 to get our engine going or do you wait to try to get value by killing a creature. i would think you play it turn one but it is pretty tempting to off their turn 2 play if they have one.

[chags]

i have a question about firestorm in the merfolk matchup. do you normally play it out turn 1 to get our engine going or do you wait to try to get value by killing a creature. i would think you play it turn one but it is pretty tempting to off their turn 2 play if they have one.

If I had no other way to get dredgers in my yard I might try to turn 1 it but I'm not sure, I might be willing to draw at least one card first. If I had a tribe or anything else in hand I'd honestly rather run them out first and let them get countered and then be able to wipe their board. Don't forget at the very least firestorm can target you and your opponent for 2 each so it always is giving some value.

[MMHMM]

If I had no other way to get dredgers in my yard I might try to turn 1 it but I'm not sure, I might be willing to draw at least one card first. If I had a tribe or anything else in hand I'd honestly rather run them out first and let them get countered and then be able to wipe their board. Don't forget at the very least firestorm can target you and your opponent for 2 each so it always is giving some value.

playing out tireless tribe sort of exposes us to wasteland if we only have one land in hand. also sometimes merfolk doesn't make a creature until turn 3 so its a tough call because we dont want to waste too much time getting started. we dont really want to get ourselves too far behind and depend on a firestorm to get us back in it because if it is backbreaking enough merfolk will counter it and we would be in a very rough spot when they do.

[2nd_lawl]

i have a question about firestorm in the merfolk matchup. do you normally play it out turn 1 to get our engine going or do you wait to try to get value by killing a creature. i would think you play it turn one but it is pretty tempting to off their turn 2 play if they have one.

Well it is an instant and you don't really care if they counter it so you can easily just go "land, pass" on the play. If they play cursecatcher, You can kill it on their endstep, with X=2 or 3, depending on what you want to discard. Generally they will snap counter an X=3 with cursecatcher, them, you as the target, which is actually better, since against fish you want to preserve your life total while you build a board. Remember not to pitch bridges as they will be removed if you kill a creature.
If they waste your land, you obviously firestorm in response.
If they go Island go they almost certainly have FOW or daze(otherwise why did they keep, Most competent fish players are not going to keep a no-cursecatcher, no-counter, no-hate hand postboard against dredge). If they are holding up counters, just play firestorm, and start dredging ASAP, so you can get them with therapy. Basically firestorm is good because it kills creatures but its GREAT because your blue opponents will often be banking on simply countering your outlets.

As for LED being worse against merfolk: I don't understand this at all. LED is the card you want for sure against Daze: the sequence of Land, LED, Breakthrough, crack LED, is Daze-proof. LED also lets you sometimes play around spell pierce in the later turns. We will see in the coming weeks how the merfolk lists shake out but my expectation is 4fow, 4 MM, 3 daze + 2 spell pierce in the SB. Firestorm is critical for the fish match-up, but so is winning the first game. The final thing about LED is this: often your blue opponents simply Wont counter it g1 even if they have force, as long as they don't know what deck you are on. If you go on t1 on the play: LED that looks like belcher or storm, not dredge, and against either of those decks, LED is the wrong card to force for sure. I always run out my LED before my land on turn 1 that way even if they do counter it, if I don't have another outlet i can sandbag the land to DDD in 2 turns, which is still fast enough to beat Some of the blue decks(although probably not fish). The fact that you don't have to run out a land on t1 with LED means that if you do get your outlet countered you can get back in the game faster then a non-led version.

[Joe_C]

That is arguable, I don't have much experience with fish vs. LED dredge but if you go turn 1 LED on the play the only possible answer is FOW. If you go turn 1 tribe/pimp/study/breakthrough/therapy MM and FOW can both halt your progress. On the draw LED can be countered by daze and FOW but so can all the other cards (+ being counterable by MM). In that sense it is more likely to have an LED hit the board, however wasteland on coliseum can make LED less good. All of this is rather moot though because you can just use firestorm.


Most if not all LED lists run LED in place of tribe. Against merfolk, this decreases your turn 1 win percentage, maybe not by huge amounts, but it does. Winning game 1 is the big benefit of this deck, giving you game 2 to at least determine what hate they are playing if you don't just blow them out again, and allowing game 3 to be better for you once you have a clear cut idea of what to play around for hate. I'd rather win game 1 and not have an uphill battle to win 2 more when they do indeed have good answers for dredge. This deck is getting more and more representation at tournaments. People will be prepared

[2nd_lawl]

Most if not all LED lists run LED in place of tribe. Against merfolk, this decreases your turn 1 win percentage, maybe not by huge amounts, but it does.

This is a a baseless and totally unsubstantiated claim, How could you possibly know the g1 win% of LED / non-LED vs. Fish when the Fish deck is going from 8 maindeck counterspells to 11 or 12?

[Joe_C]

This is a a baseless and totally unsubstantiated claim, How could you possibly know the g1 win% of LED / non-LED vs. Fish when the Fish deck is going from 8 maindeck counterspells to 11 or 12?

You don't. But even before mm was printed sticking a permanent discard outlet is more important than the speed of LED. LED lists forgo tribe for the speed of LED. Tribe is going to win you more games than LED. even against other matchups aside from combo, which the speed may be an actual benefit.

[Izor]

This is a a baseless and totally unsubstantiated claim, How could you possibly know the g1 win% of LED / non-LED vs. Fish when the Fish deck is going from 8 maindeck counterspells to 11 or 12?

Just as much as it is a baseless and unsubstantiated claim that Merfolks will go up from 8 to 12 counterspells, I suppose...

How could you possibly know how Fish will deal with a card that's not even tournament legal yet?

Just let that card come, we will see how we can deal with it. I still doubt that all the Aggro decks in the format will pack a set of Missteps and decrease the critical amount of threats they can play.

[Joe_C]

Just as much as it is a baseless and unsubstantiated claim that Merfolks will go up from 8 to 12 counterspells, I suppose...

How could you possibly know how Fish will deal with a card that's not even tournament legal yet?

Just let that card come, we will see how we can deal with it. I still doubt that all the Aggro decks in the format will pack a set of Missteps and decrease the critical amount of threats they can play.

Truth. MM is going to be a larger issue in decks that run other counters, although even against merfolk running 4 fow, 4 daze, 4 MM running less 1 cc outlets isn't going to help you.

[2nd_lawl]

Truth. MM is going to be a larger issue in decks that run other counters, although even against merfolk running 4 fow, 4 daze, 4 MM running less 1 cc outlets isn't going to help you.

Actually it is. Having half of your discard outlets not be counterable by MM means that merfolk WONT BE ABLE TO COUNTER YOUR DISCARD OUTLETS AS OFTEN.

herp derp logic. And sticking a perm discard outlet vs fish g1 isnt necessary at all. They cannot interact with you in any way that you really care about g1. Merfolk generally cant beat any kind of assortment of like 5 Zombies + a narcomoeba. The only way they ever win g1(besides mulling into oblivion or something) is if they counter your outlet and race you. Im something like 20-1 against merfolk in large tournaments with LED dredge. And probably 18 of those matches i won g1.

[chags]

@MMHMM Your response is kind of stating the obvious. When you asked when we play our firestorms I assume you wanted in detail situations when you don't have to race them. With no creatures on the board by turn 2 it is probably time to firestorm if you don't have a discard outlet. That is why I mentioned it still is 1 mana for 2 damage and a discard effect.

As for the LED conversation I agree with Joe_C's assessment. Most dredge players favor running 4 tireless tribe over having LED, though it is true some LED lists run 2 tireless tribe I'd say its more important to max out on them. Also as previously pointed out, the decks benefiting the most from MM run other counters, if fish has that many counters dodging the best cards in the deck for other spells that can be countered by any number of cards just seems silly.

[2nd_lawl]

Just as much as it is a baseless and unsubstantiated claim that Merfolks will go up from 8 to 12 counterspells, I suppose...

How could you possibly know how Fish will deal with a card that's not even tournament legal yet?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8158-[DTB]-Merfolk/page1

Take a look at every decklist people have been posting since the spoiling of MM. My claim is not unsubstantiated at all.
Thanks for playing.

[Gui]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8158-[DTB]-Merfolk/page1

Take a look at every decklist people have been posting since the spoiling of MM. My claim is not unsubstantiated at all.
Thanks for playing.

BTW, this is not a contest to see who out-argument the opponent... ><
Nonsense discussion (LED vs LEDless), nonsense ending.

[TheKingslayer]

Well, if mental misstep becomes an overbearing problem, can't we just MB firestorm?

[chags]

Yes we can.

[nayon]

BTW, this is not a contest to see who out-argument the opponent... ><
Nonsense discussion (LED vs LEDless), nonsense ending.

I don't think it's nonsense discussion. I think it's very relevant.

But how is it that having your discard outlet be counterable by MM a good thing? I'm not a huge fan of LED but it feels like it adds resilience against MM. Am I wrong? if so explain why.

[Rune]

I've tested a bit against the traditional LED-less Dredge lists with a blue MM deck and, as I first expected, the old lists will now need a good deal of luck just to take G1 from basically any blue deck.

Realistically speaking, Dredge will be forced to adapt to the card, and this might mean that LED Dredge becomes the more consistent deck, even though most people agreed that LED-less Dredge was much more consistent beforehand. If I were to play Dredge, I would probably go back to playing something resembling Parcher's old list with LED mainboard and Tribes in the sideboard for grinding out nonblue matchups. On the other hand, it's hard to tell if playing with LEDs will solve the problem, since LED Dredge frequiently depends on resolving a 1-drop as well.

[Gui]

I don't think it's nonsense discussion. I think it's very relevant.

But how is it that having your discard outlet be counterable by MM a good thing? I'm not a huge fan of LED but it feels like it adds resilience against MM. Am I wrong? if so explain why.

Ok, I give you that, the discussion is relevant. Problem is people here saying people are dumb or w/e for not using one version over the other, and saying one version is hands down superior to the other. This is the nonsense part of it.One has to consider different matchups and different results from different tests to call people names for running one version over the other.

And it's a deck choice, as for Zoo vs Big Zoo, among others. You can tell someone to run Landstill over TES because Landstill is better in determined meta, that doesn't mean the TES guy will do it, does it? The same applies to LEDless vs LED, IMHO.

The problem with LED in not the fact that it will discard your hand through MM more effectively, the problem is that, after discarding, they will have to counter one draw engine to slow you down, while LEDless version usually can make use of more draws from hand (the one that you discarded with LED).
LED+DA is still more resiliant, but it's 16% chance of having both, against 40% they got a FoW, and something else if they are on the play, so they can foil your plan with their other 56 cards all the same.

Now, having a discard outlet targeted by MM may look nuts, the end of the world, but we could win against pileofcounters.dec before, another counter won't make them increadibly more dangerous -- we still got 20 ways to discard WITHOUT counting DDD, and we have 12 draw spells, with possibility of running more if we find out that countering our draw is bringing them too many victories. Fact is that, whenever they counter something from us, they are investing a card on it, reducing their possibilities of rushing us.

The decks that got more dangerous against us are Tempo decks, but it's not a HUGE difference, because in the end of the day, they still have to counter everything that speed us up AND land relevantly fast threats, the same way they had to do before. This means they won't be running endless amount of counters, and they have to get lucky to counter our everything while they deal their dmg. This strategy got stronger, but it's not undefeatable stronger, imho.

[nayon]

Ok, I give you that, the discussion is relevant. Problem is people here saying people are dumb or w/e for not using one version over the other, and saying one version is hands down superior to the other. This is the nonsense part of it.One has to consider different matchups and different results from different tests to call people names for running one version over the other.

And it's a deck choice, as for Zoo vs Big Zoo, among others. You can tell someone to run Landstill over TES because Landstill is better in determined meta, that doesn't mean the TES guy will do it, does it? The same applies to LEDless vs LED, IMHO.

The problem with LED in not the fact that it will discard your hand through MM more effectively, the problem is that, after discarding, they will have to counter one draw engine to slow you down, while LEDless version usually can make use of more draws from hand (the one that you discarded with LED).
LED+DA is still more resiliant, but it's 16% chance of having both, against 40% they got a FoW, and something else if they are on the play, so they can foil your plan with their other 56 cards all the same.

Now, having a discard outlet targeted by MM may look nuts, the end of the world, but we could win against pileofcounters.dec before, another counter won't make them increadibly more dangerous -- we still got 20 ways to discard WITHOUT counting DDD, and we have 12 draw spells, with possibility of running more if we find out that countering our draw is bringing them too many victories. Fact is that, whenever they counter something from us, they are investing a card on it, reducing their possibilities of rushing us.

The decks that got more dangerous against us are Tempo decks, but it's not a HUGE difference, because in the end of the day, they still have to counter everything that speed us up AND land relevantly fast threats, the same way they had to do before. This means they won't be running endless amount of counters, and they have to get lucky to counter our everything while they deal their dmg. This strategy got stronger, but it's not undefeatable stronger, imho.

Maybe we can run Unmask main as a discard outlet that's uncounterable by MM? we drop the Tribe/Pimp first, if they counter it we unmask ourselves. Very awkward but can't be MM'd.

[Sims]

I'd rather Unmask them first and see if I can force the 1cc outlet through because it would be way more useful than Unmasking myself. My biggest concern would be having the cards to pay Unmasks alt CC.

[chags]

Having discard outlets that can be countered is unfortunate but by no means the end of the world. As pointed out already just because you get past MM does not mean you have beat a blue deck, you still need to resolve a draw spell. LED is also only good when you have coliseum out or deep analysis in hand/gy. The rest of the time LED just sucks, so why not run firestorm that also allows you to pitch your hand but at the very least can deal an opponent 2 damage? When it comes down to it this is all a matter of preference but I don't think LED-less dredge is doomed, its just another counter that takes the place of some old ones.

[nayon]

Did you guys see Patrick Chapin's "Turbo Dredge" list? What do you guys think of that?

[chags]

haven't seen it. link?

[Lurker]

Paid 5$ for you chags :P

Maindeck:

Artifact Creatures
3 Memnite

Creatures
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Tireless Tribe


Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below

Sorceries
2 Breakthrough
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine

[NecroYawgmoth]

okay, cool... I like Gitaxian Probe and Street Wraith as free Dredge... Don't know if that is the way to go, but I like it, I like it very much. 8 free Dredges are VERY cool. But what's the reason behind Memnite??? seriously? I think you misstyped and meant Ichorid?
If not, tell me the logic behind it.

[Lurker]

Nope, that's the list Chapin posted in the article so either he made the mistake in which case it's supposed to be either Ichorid or Bloodghast or something else, or his general idea is that it provides as Dread return fodder seeing as he's trying to combo off as quickly as possibly in which case Ichorid may not be as important? Not quite sure. Not a fan of the list myself though.

[Joe_C]

Not to just be a nay-sayer but that seems pretty bad. Not running 4 breakthrough when the rest of the deck seems streamlined to win fast seems pretty poor. Also, forbidden orchard? If you aren't setting up a huge turn 1/2 chance at winning ichorid should most definitely be in the deck. I'd be interested to see if he actually tested this list or just spewed it up on SCG

[Digital Devil]

Seeing Mental Misstep's going to rule da scene, I wanted to play at least 3 Firestorms. I play a LED-Less build with 4x Ichorid, Iona and 3x Dread Return, so I guess going down to three Ichorids and two Dread Returns (with no maindeck target) would be acceptable. Also, since I'm playing a 4x Breakthrough/3x Careful Study split, wouldn't it be better to play 4x Studies, instead (maximizing the number of discard outlets)? With 4x Tribe/PImp/Study/Therapy and 3-4 Firestorms + 3x Breakthrough, I think circumventing the new card could be easy. Or do you think my current 4x PImp/Tribe/Therapy/Breakthrough +3x Study setup would still be ok, in a post MM era? Any suggestions?

[Joe_C]

Seeing Mental Misstep's going to rule da scene, I wanted to play at least 3 Firestorms. I play a LED-Less build with 4x Ichorid, Iona and 3x Dread Return, so I guess going down to three Ichorids and two Dread Returns (with no maindeck target) would be acceptable. Also, since I'm playing a 4x Breakthrough/3x Careful Study split, wouldn't it be better to play 4x Studies, instead (maximizing the number of discard outlets)? With 4x Tribe/PImp/Study/Therapy and 3-4 Firestorms + 3x Breakthrough, I think circumventing the new card could be easy. Or do you think my current 4x PImp/Tribe/Therapy/Breakthrough +3x Study setup would still be ok, in a post MM era? Any suggestions?

Unless you are facing merfolk all the time I wouldn't concern myself with maindecking fiestorm. Aside from merfolk I don't see many decks gaining that much ground against us if they maindeck mm. And if they sb it in against us, that seems pretty weak. Although this may make us want to change our sb cards as mm neuters nature's claim/chain of vapor. Maybe upping to a few ray of revelation and keeping grudge in there for sure is a better plan if game 2 they are protecting their hate with mm. Sadly, firestorm loses its punch against merfolk if they have any countermeasures for it.

[1maarten1]

Dredge just top 4'd a 600 player tournament yesterday, lists arent up yet so I dont know if its LEDless or with LED. But still a pretty sick result.

[Izor]

@ Mental Misstep-totally-runis-Dredge-especially-nonLED-lists issue:

The first thing some of the posters above got incredibly wrog is: The big problem MM can pose for us is NOT in blue control builds. It's in non- blue builds and maybe also in Tempo builds ! Why? Because:

- first of all, a control deck will not have room for 4 Force+4 Daze+4 MM. They will either leave MM out, play a Daze-MM split or take Daze out. Maybe they will play something like 3-3, I don't know. And MM is only marginally better against us than Daze. They can now get our CC1 guys if we leave mana open, cool. But in turn they don't hit BT X=1 any more if we tapped out for it. Doesn't bother me too much tbh.

- second, each half-competent Dredge player should know that we don't freaking try to punch out all our stuff only to get wrecked by counterspells. We DDD against control builds. MM can be annoying because it gets our first CT, so what. If we're DDDing we don't have mana anyway so Daze is just as good as MM once again.

So if we face non-blue builds that now have access to MM that can actually be really annoying. While a hand with only one discard outlet plus Dredger plus draw spell was an auto-win against any aggro deck before, they now can pay 2 life to counter something. At the cost of two life plus 4 threats they don't have room for any more. I'm not sure which aggro decks (like Zoo, Gobbos, Mavericks and whatnot) will want to give those 4 slots up in the end.

So unless all blue builds do make room for all 12 counter spells, I wouldn't be too worried about those matchups, at least not until we get to see the first results.

@ Tempo Dredge:

I don't want to be offending or anything, but whoever runs Forbidden Orchard over Tarnished or Paradise in Dredge has simply not understood how this deck works.

Tempo Dredge is also a funny name, given the fact that 4 Probe+4 Wraith+2 BT is clearly not half as fast as 4 BT+4 Study.

I'm also not a fan of the idea to run the already borderline choice of Gitaxian Probe, but cut the best card in the deck that accidentally has a broken synergy with Probe down from 4 to 2.

And only 10 Dredgers... only 9 ! gold lands... consistency anyone ?

Memnite is pretty funny.

[Digital Devil]

We DDD against control builds. MM can be annoying because it gets our first CT, so what. If we're DDDing we don't have mana anyway so Daze is just as good as MM once again.
If I'm going second and I see an Island it is kinda obvious I'm going to DDD. The main issue is when we win the die roll and lead with t1 Tribe/PImp/Study, because we have a second one to play next turn. If our opponent plays 4x Force of Will and 4x Mental Misstep, he probably has a chance of 62,9% or so to have one in his opening grip, meaning our first discard outlet is almost certainly going to be countered: maybe the second one is going to be countered, too. I mean, I'm doing phantom tests against Misstep - at the beginning of the game my opponent searches his library for a Tarmogoyf and a MM, then draws 5 cards, while I normally draw my seven. Most times I have another discard outlet which is going to win the game for me - but if I'm not having it, I'm losing to a :1::g: creature. How should we adapt?

[Gui]

Anyone got the list from BoM? I heard it is the most standard LEDless list...

[Joe_C]

If I'm going second and I see an Island it is kinda obvious I'm going to DDD. The main issue is when we win the die roll and lead with t1 Tribe/PImp/Study, because we have a second one to play next turn. If our opponent plays 4x Force of Will and 4x Mental Misstep, he probably has a chance of 62,9% or so to have one in his opening grip, meaning our first discard outlet is almost certainly going to be countered: maybe the second one is going to be countered, too. I mean, I'm doing phantom tests against Misstep - at the beginning of the game my opponent searches his library for a Tarmogoyf and a MM, then draws 5 cards, while I normally draw my seven. Most times I have another discard outlet which is going to win the game for me - but if I'm not having it, I'm losing to a :1::g: creature. How should we adapt?

I'm intending on keeping with nonLED and playing the sphinx/zealot kill again. If you are going to win, win fast before they can gain positive board position. What we can hope for game 1 is to go as deep into our deck as we can as fast as we can and board wisely for games 2 and 3. you can keep the combo in, but we would be more reliant on cephalid coliseum than breakthrough.

[Darklingske]

So dredge has finished in the top 16 of BoM (A legacy tournament with a whopping 687 people attending!). I'm looking forward to see his list. Until now, no list have been posted.

[(nameless one)]

So dredge has finished in the top 16 of BoM (A legacy tournament with a whopping 687 people attending!). I'm looking forward to see his list. Until now, no list have been posted.

Do we at least know if its an LED or non-LED list?

[Gui]

Do we at least know if its an LED or non-LED list?

Afaik, BoM takes forever to release the lists,..

The guy is german, and acording to a german friend of mine, the guy always plays the classical LEDless list with no DR targets, 12 dredgers, 2 DR, and 4 grudge+4claim SB, with few DR targets SB, including Iona and Chosen, but no Sphynx. Something like that, but it's not confirmed that he played this list there.

Besides, he has beaten Merfolks, the impossible mental misstep match, on one of the top8 games. Where's god now? xD

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hello,

I'm the guy who piloted the Dredge-Deck to the 4th place (2nd after swiss) at Bazaar of Moxen. Actually it was a pretty standard LEDless-list. I played against many Mental Missteps, but that wasn't a big problem. Sure, it may be annoying, but it is almost like each other counter. I played the Legacy trial on friday with the same list and went 6-2-0 (12th place out of about 150 players / a friend of mine made the 9th with the same list).

Here are the matchup I've faced:
Trial:
1. Team America 0-2
2. Mono U Merfolk 2-1
3. GW Maverick 2-1
4. Lands 2-1
5. Next Level Thresh Urg 2-1
6. Big Zoo 2-0
7. Mono U Merfolk 2-1
8. Canadian Thresh 1-2

Main event:
1. Countertop 2-0
2. Rb Goblin 2-0
3. Mono U Merfolk 0-2
4. GW Maverick 2-1
5. Team America 2-1
6. ANT 2-0
7. Ur Painter 2-1
8. ANT 2-0
9. Caw Go with Topther Foundry Combo 2-0
Top 16: Mono U Merfolk 2-1 (lost one game due to brainfart)
Top 8: Sneak Show 2-0
Top 4: Ub Reanimator 0-2

So, 16-4-0 overall isn't that bad I think :-).

This is the SB I played:
1 Elesh Horn
1 Realm Razer
1 Iona
1 Hypnotist
4 Claim
4 Grudge
2 Ray
1 Darkblast

Maindeck I played 1 Darkblast and 3 Thug.

[(nameless one)]

Hello,

I'm the guy who piloted the Dredge-Deck to the 4th place (2nd after swiss) at Bazaar of Moxen. Actually it was a pretty standard LEDless-list. I played against many Mental Missteps, but that wasn't a big problem. Sure, it may be annoying, but it is almost like each other counter. I played the Legacy trial on friday with the same list and went 6-2-0 (12th place out of about 150 players / a friend of mine made the 9th with the same list).
....
....

How did your main list look like?

When did you side-in Elesh Norn and how did she perform?

I noticed that you didn't play Chain of Vapor on your side. Was Nature's Claim good enough that it didn't need Chain of Vapor? Also, why no Leyline of the Void? In an unknown meta (or a huge tournament), I would never remove them from my sideboard, since they're awesome against mirror and graveyard-based decks (you did lose to Reanimator on semi).

I also noticed that all your loses came from blue-based tempo decks (Team America, Canadian Thresh, Merfolk). Did Mental Misstep played a huge role on your loses?

[Gui]

There it is, then. I was almost right xD
Just to make it clear, the standard list is the one with no DR targets, right?

Didn't miss Chosen, I take it? Elesh Norn is better for the spot?

You should write us a report, that would be the best read in a while ^^

[Godmode]

Post your Maindeck list dude.. nice job

And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome

[chags]

Nicely done, congrats on the great finish. I'd be interested to know what you attribute your losses to (bad breaks, mental misstep, brainfart, etc..)

[1maarten1]

Post your Maindeck list dude.. nice job

And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome

Dude... read the thread. Basic LED-dredge is this:
3x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Goglari Thug
1x Darkblast
4x Putrid Imp
4x Tireless Tribe
4x Narcomoeba

2x Dread Return
4x Careful STudy
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x Tarnished Citadel

Like he said he took the darkblast over the 4th thug.

[Izor]

Yep, this is exactly the German LEDless build, tuned and tested thoroughly and (at least in Germany and by myself) found to be the most optimal build one can run in the current Legacy metagame.

Congratz on the awesome finish and thumbs up for beating MMs.

The recent results from SCG open this weekend is not that cool I think. 7 decks in the Top 8 played MM, and 12 out of Top 16. Damn centralizing, right? I'm curious how that will develop. But having only 4-5 archetypes in a SCG open Top 16 is kind of meh...

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

The list posted by 1maarten1 is exactly the one I played.




When did you side-in Elesh Norn and how did she perform?


I just sided it in against Goblins once. It hit the board and he gave up, so it was quite okay.




I noticed that you didn't play Chain of Vapor on your side. Was Nature's Claim good enough that it didn't need Chain of Vapor? Also, why no Leyline of the Void? In an unknown meta (or a huge tournament), I would never remove them from my sideboard, since they're awesome against mirror and graveyard-based decks (you did lose to Reanimator on semi).

Actually, I just boarded Nature's Claim just once and then I've lost against Reanimator in the Semifinals. I never really needed it. Neither I needed the Chain ;).

If you know how to play your deck, you should likely win the mirror. For such an rare MU, same goes for Reanimator, I don't want to waste SB-space. I wouldn't have won the game against Reanimator even if I had Leyline in play.



I also noticed that all your loses came from blue-based tempo decks (Team America, Canadian Thresh, Merfolk). Did Mental Misstep played a huge role on your loses?

The Team America- and Canadian Thresh-players where both pretty good. They knew how to play the hate and they had plenty of them^^. The Merfolk-player just had many fast guys I couldn't handle. If I recall correctly, he misstept one of my outlets, but I don't think it played a huge role. In the Team America- and Canadian Thresh-games I saw Mental Missteps, but they weren't really relevant.



Didn't miss Chosen, I take it? Elesh Norn is better for the spot?

No, I didn't. I tried the Chosen a few times before Elesh Norn was released, but I never wasn't impressed by him, so the last times I played the deck, I played without him :). I think Elesh Norn is better on what you want: kill non-blue Tribal/Aggro-decks.



You should write us a report, that would be the best read in a while ^^

Maybe I will ;). I finished my german report right now, if I've got time, I'll probably write an english one.



And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome

In the games I played, I boarded like that:
- Team America: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, (-1 Darkblast); +3 Ancient Grudge, (+1 Ray)
- Merfolk: -2 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough; +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Darkblast
- GW Maverick: -1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Thug, -1 Breakthrough; +3 Grudge, +1 Darkblast (Hierarch, Mother)
- Lands: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Darkblast, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Ichorid; +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Hypnotist, +1 Realm Razer
- Next Level Thresh Urg: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Thug; +1 Darkblast (Lavamancer), +3 Grudge
- Big Zoo: Like GW Maverick I think
- Canadian Thresh: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return; +3 Ancient Grudge
- Countertop: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return; +3 Ancient Grudge
- Rb Goblin: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid; +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Darkblast, +2 Grudge
- ANT: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Darkblast; +1 Hypnotist, +1 Iona
- Ur Painter: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast, +4 Grudge
- Caw Go with Topther Foundry Combo: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Thug; +1 Darkblast, +3 Grudge
- Sneak Show: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast; +3 Grudge, +1 Ray
- Ub Reanimator: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast; +3 Nature's Claim, +1 Grudge

I hope I got all these boardings right. I don't recall all of them.



Nicely done, congrats on the great finish. I'd be interested to know what you attribute your losses to (bad breaks, mental misstep, brainfart, etc..)

Thank you :). As stated above, I face two good players and many blue men ;).

[Digital Devil]

<interesting things about the tournament>
'grats for your finish. Both you and Dredge (as an archetype) deserved that. I'm so happy my favourite deck isn't going to change that much because of a design error. Unluckily, I still fear the "Mental Misstep Menace", so I don't know whether I should play the same exact list I've been doing for ages, or a different one. My main concerns are countermagic and lots of creatures, so I was considering Firestorm. Should I play a list like post #1490, -1 Darkblast, -1 Study/Breakthrough, -1 Citadel, +3 Firestorm? Also, what do you think about Breakthrough? I used to love that card, but against non-storm decks I still won on the back of Careful Study, which not only acts as both discard and gas, it can also be used to search for answers/sculpt the hand, and is a strong spell against Relic of Progenitus (3 cards hitting the grave at once, meaning my opponent can't EOT tap Relic and repeat the process during his turn). I thought: if I'm still able to win g2 against Zoo/Merfolk without Breakthrough and through graveyard hate, why can't I do it g1 with more ease? That's why I was thinking my 4x Breakthrough/3x Study split should become 4x Study/3x Firestorm. This way, I have access to 15 effective discard outlets (4x Cabal Therapy being 16-19, in case of emergency), which almost guarantees me to have 1/2 in my opening. It also opens the chances of having actual creature removal/reach: most times it isn't needed (I never played the Instant, and I also used to despise it), although throwing cards in the bin just because I only had Breakthrough as a "discard outlet" made me sad. Suddenly, a hypotethical hand consisting of double land (better if one of 'em is Coliseum), dredger, random useless cards and Firestorm becomes keepable. With Breakthrough I would've mulled that, unless I knew my opponent's playing a blue deck, me being on the draw.

P.S. - Also by playing maindeck Firestorm this deck reaches the 3rd degree of awesomeness, 'cause it has cards of every single color in the game.

P.P.S. - Ancient Grudge counts, too, though only g2/g3.

[chags]

Brot_ohne_Kruste: Thanks for all the info on the deck. My list has a few differences from yours, I run FKZ over hypnotist but I think I am going to switch that, I run only 1 ancient grudge and cut the slot you have realm razer in for 4 firestorm. I think firestorm is really good in this meta and 5 artifact destruction spells seems like enough to me. I also don't run any darkblasts (main or sb) and run Terastodon in that spot with 4 golgari thug main. Darkblast doesn't kill enough of the creatures I want it to and with 4 firestorm I don't think I need it. I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?

@Digital Devil: I like breakthrough too much to cut it but I do think you should fit firestorm in your list. Breakthrough and firestorm serve different functions, one allows you to accelerate your dredging while the other gets dredgers in the yard (breakthrough is not used primarily for this function but can be used this way for less gain). I just think breakthrough wins the vast majority of games it resolves. Let us know how testing without them goes.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I've written a cute, little report :): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20880-Bazaar-of-Moxen-5-Top-4-with-LEDless-Dredge&p=548352#post548352



I think firestorm is really good in this meta and 5 artifact destruction spells seems like enough to me. I also don't run any darkblasts (main or sb) and run Terastodon in that spot with 4 golgari thug main. Darkblast doesn't kill enough of the creatures I want it to and with 4 firestorm I don't think I need it. I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?

I don't really like the Firestorms. The Matchups you want to win with this card you are going to win these games most likely without it anyways. At least that's my experience I made.

The role of Darkblast is another that Firestorm fills: Firestorm is more an Outlet that kills the creatures of the opponent, but it's just one time. Darkblast is also good at protecting your own creatures from Swords/Paths or protecting your Bridges. It can slow down your opponent and give you an permanent Dredger, but in most situation it's good to generate more tokens and win. E.g. if you attack with 2 Ichorids and 2 Moeba, having a few Bridges in your grave, and he has got one blocker which would die to an Ichorid, you can just blast the blocked Ichorid, and generate tokens. The other Ichorid dies, you are generating tokens again. In the next turn he would be probably dead. And you can respond to the removing Bridge-trigger by killing one guy to generate more tokens.
But as stated above, the best thing is to protect your Ichorids against Swords/Paths. It's such a good card, I just love it :).



I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?

Against every Deck that is playing Tabernacle and/or Glacial Chasm. So, most likely Lands :).

@ Artifact-removal-spells in the SB: I would never ever cut the Ancient Grudges. The are just too good. Actually I boarded them in against almost every deck. The Claims weren't used very often because they can't destroy two artifacts with one card. For me 4 Grudes, 4 Claims and 2 Rays in the SB are set in stone :).

@Digital Devil: Yeah, please let us know how the testing is working out.

[Gui]

Plus tech, Realm Razer can enter against High Tide, and is decent against Enchantress.

I really like your play style Brot_Ohne_Kruste, really good! Thanks for posting all the info ^^

[Digital Devil]

@Digital Devil: I like breakthrough too much to cut it but I do think you should fit firestorm in your list. Breakthrough and firestorm serve different functions, one allows you to accelerate your dredging while the other gets dredgers in the yard (breakthrough is not used primarily for this function but can be used this way for less gain). I just think breakthrough wins the vast majority of games it resolves. Let us know how testing without them goes.
Actually I still like Breakthrough, only less than I used to. Though if I want to play Firestorm I have to either remove Breakthrough, or go down to 3x Ichorid, 2x Dread Return and no maindeck target (the latter being more appealing than the former: I mean, most lists aren't playing DR targets anyway).


I don't really like the Firestorms. The Matchups you want to win with this card you are going to win these games most likely without it anyways. At least that's my experience I made.
That's why I used to hate the card, and why I always thought Darkblast was like Over 9000 times better - I'm just giving it a try to see how it performs.


The role of Darkblast is another that Firestorm fills: Firestorm is more an Outlet that kills the creatures of the opponent, but it's just one time.
I love Darkblast, too - it's incredibly strong since it acts as removal, protection, mills for 3, and at worst, it discards itself. Plus, the name is so... bombastic.


@ Artifact-removal-spells in the SB: I would never ever cut the Ancient Grudges. The are just too good. Actually I boarded them in against almost every deck. The Claims weren't used very often because they can't destroy two artifacts with one card. For me 4 Grudges, 4 Claims and 2 Rays in the SB are set in stone.
Same here.
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P.S. - Thanks for your report!!!

[chags]

Well siding in your ancient grudges was probably what won you a lot of your games but think of how merfolk might have played out with firestorm, after all you did say you got beat by them swarming you. Maybe I am running too few responses to hate but if you run 4 grudge why run 4 claim? You almost never brought in both in the tournament (only against reanimator) and you NEVER brought in 4 of either. The most grudges you ever sided in was 3, sometimes going as few as 2 and the most claims you boarded in was also 3 against the only match up you brought them in at all for. This makes me think that at the very least you could probably drop to 3 Ancient Grudge, 2 Nature's Claim, 2 Ray of revelation or even 3 grudge 3 claim 2 ray. 4 of each just seems unnecessary as proven by your sideboarding strategy. Also terastadon answers all the lands that you are scared of that realm razer would answer (except high tide if you tried to do that) while also being able to answer other random cards like moat, why not just play the giant elephant? Worst case scenario he can blow your own lands to offer you more dudes. Not trying to nit pick your list, I actually like most of it a lot, just looking for some clarification. Thanks again for all the info.

[4eak]

Funny enough, 4 pages ago (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-DTB-Ichorid/page71), in response to chags, I had pointed out the same maindeck of Brot_Ohne_Kruste, and a sideboard that was only 3 cards different.

Now, perhaps Brot_Ohne_Kruste has a different reason for running so much Anti-GY hate, but I continue to find that having as many answers to hate when I want them has been very powerful. I do worry about Leyline (even if some people don't), and you need Claims and Rays in a decent quantity to have a reasonable chance to open a hand with an answer and land. In addition, hate varies with some odd matchups. Beyond GY-hate, there are cards I'm interested in answering which a heavy disenchant sideboard does, plus it gives some pretty powerful plays against Enchantress, Affinity, Stax, MUD, etc. (granted, some of these I never know when or if I'm going to see them)


peace,
4eak

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Well siding in your ancient grudges was probably what won you a lot of your games but think of how merfolk might have played out with firestorm, after all you did say you got beat by them swarming you. Maybe I am running too few responses to hate but if you run 4 grudge why run 4 claim? You almost never brought in both in the tournament (only against reanimator) and you NEVER brought in 4 of either. The most grudges you ever sided in was 3, sometimes going as few as 2 and the most claims you boarded in was also 3 against the only match up you brought them in at all for. This makes me think that at the very least you could probably drop to 3 Ancient Grudge, 2 Nature's Claim, 2 Ray of revelation or even 3 grudge 3 claim 2 ray. 4 of each just seems unnecessary as proven by your sideboarding strategy. Also terastadon answers all the lands that you are scared of that realm razer would answer (except high tide if you tried to do that) while also being able to answer other random cards like moat, why not just play the giant elephant? Worst case scenario he can blow your own lands to offer you more dudes. Not trying to nit pick your list, I actually like most of it a lot, just looking for some clarification. Thanks again for all the info.

To be honest, I'm not really good in building decks I think. Actually I do at maximum just little testings on the matchups and whatsoever when I start playing new decks. A friend of mine techs out almost all decks I play (at least in the last time). He always says: "Here, it's one of the best decks in the format, you're forced to be played this list, you can't resist".

That beeing said, the reasons why you're running so much hate is exactly like "4eak" stated: You want to win against random decks. To get swarmed can always happen, actually you will most likely win these Matchups, why should I put hate against creatures into my board? But you're more likely beaten by graveyardhate AND random decks like Enhantress and Stacks than beeing swarmed. I want to beat random decks with my Sideboard and the rest with skill :D.

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I really like your play style Brot_Ohne_Kruste, really good! Thanks for posting all the info ^^

Thanks a lot :).