Vampire Nocturnus [ncd]

[TheCramp]

Vampire Nocturnus
:b: :b: :b: :1:
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
As long as the top card of your library is black, Vampire Nocturnus and other Vampire creatures you control get +2/+1 and have flying. 3/3

This card does not deserve it's own thread. The thread it should be in exploded however...

BB2 would have been a better cost, I agree with Taco (I think) on that matter, but I think it is interesting. 5/4 flying for 4 is just fine, plays nicer with Confidant in Eva G/Rock than Tomb Stalker. It provides you some info about whether you need to activate top to avoid getting domed by your own bob, or if you can spend mana on other things. It may be that this info is more valuable to your opponent than to you. Also, they are fucking houses in multiples. I think it deserves a look as a win con behind Stalker, Shade and Goyf in the decks that play that much black. It may compete with Specter as primary ritual "target." It is out of CB's wheelhouse, and comes down sooner than stalker with a rit. It is a shitty fucking Sower pull, Your 5/4 flyer gets demoted to hill giant, and fucks up their CB tracking. were it BB2, you could see it in some sort of tomb agro deck, but as such is limited to a Bg rock shell of some kind I suspect.

[Captain_Morgan]

It seems decent, it's nice to see them doing lords for certain creature types. I enjoyed the new zombie lords from Alara block, it would be nice to see some love for soldiers and a few of the other weaker tribes.

[MTG-Fan]

I could see this being played if it cost BB instead.

BBB1 is just too much to ask for such a creature, no matter how cool its ability is.

[Nihil Credo]

I can't think of many situations where it wouldn't be a good deal to find an extra mana and get Demigod of Revenge instead.

[Elfrago]

Looks decent if you're playing top or some other sort of library manipulation, else too often a land will be on top of your library.

[TheCramp]

I suppose your comparing it to tombstalker (BB.) If Nocturnus cost BB it would be a monocolor watchwolf at the worst, and more often a 'goyf with flying. Which is to say it might be the best creature ever at that cost, so yeah "I could see it being played if it cost BB" too...

Anyway, I see it as, potentially, the Wild Nactle to Tomb Stalker's Tarmogoyf. Not as powerful on paper, but comes down quicker with higher power. (and makes poor friends with islands.) If you have ever played or played against Zoo, you find a lot of circumstances where the turn 2 goyf is the wrong play, because its just not aggressive enough (yet.) turn one Nactle is almost always the right play. Nocturnus is always good (i.e. playable) turn two with ritual or turn 4 w/o. Stalker's sometimes get stranded with or w/out rituals depending on how many permanents you drew. Eva, post board, a decent hand of Thoughsieze, Swamp, Swamp, Bayou, Goyf, Choke, Hymn, Pushes stalker back quite a few turns. Nocturnus just shows up to rumble. I am thinking that it provides a serious threat alongside Tomabstalker that you can fire Pernicious deed right under for full devastation.

Also, bad-ass name. At first I was wondering "did they really just name a card Nocturnal Vampire?" Nice. Fucking. Name. SO i looked it up, nocturnus: An office of devotion, or act of religious service, by night. That's some flavor right there. Also used in medical parlance, Pavor Nocturnus, a.k.a. the medical term for Night Terrors. I'm gonna start testing it just so I can call the deck Pavor Nocturnus. Furthermore this (http://www.myspace.com/nocturnus1) band it so bad, it rounds the bent to awesome again. The Science of Horror indeed.

[Skeggi]

Juzám Djinn is strictly better and is hardly played. Flavorwise also alot better.

[TheCramp]

I can't think of many situations where it wouldn't be a good deal to find an extra mana and get Demigod of Revenge instead.

That's a fine point, but were are talking about BB vs. :1: which is a little different than 1 more mana. Demigod is fantastic. But you can't ritual it out turn 2 with Wasteland or Vornath's Stronghold as your other land. The question is, is the deck that ramps to 5B for Demigod better than the one which enables 3B to include Nocturnus. The answer to that question might be, "Yes." My intuition continues to buzz thinking about Nocturnus. It's a weak signal, and it may be nothing. The thing is that a lot of the creatures that fit into Bg or mono B tend to get worse in multiples. The second Shade is often a bear, 2nd confidant is risky, 2nd tombstalker can be a blank (even if the fist is countered/swordsed), 2nd Hypie can be an expensive drake, their EV decreases. Furthermore they are decreasing EV at the worst possible moment, when your opponent can play around them. In a game of threat>answer, they are all bombs, but when you start getting played around, you lose. Cards like Demigod and Nocturnus reinforce each other, which is what got me thinking. It's the opposite of win more, rather, lose less.

I disagree about Juzam, I'll jump through a hoop for the same Cmc + power for the addition of flying. Especially if that hoop is Top.

[DragoFireheart]

Juzám Djinn is strictly better and is hardly played. Flavorwise also alot better.

Except that, you know, it doesn't fly, so it has to fight it's way through the retarded Tarmogoyfs. :smile:

Also, Phyrexian Scuta is vastly superior to the Djinn, both in it's life lost and $ cost.

The Vampire on the other hand can laugh at the Gofys while they battle hump each other due to having that one extra point of toughness and deal 5 damage in the air.

[MTG-Fan]

The thing is that a lot of the creatures that fit into Bg or mono B tend to get worse in multiples. The second Shade is often a bear, 2nd confidant is risky, 2nd tombstalker can be a blank (even if the fist is countered/swordsed), 2nd Hypie can be an expensive drake, their EV decreases. Furthermore they are decreasing EV at the worst possible moment, when your opponent can play around them. In a game of threat>answer, they are all bombs, but when you start getting played around, you lose. Cards like Demigod and Nocturnus reinforce each other, which is what got me thinking. It's the opposite of win more, rather, lose less.


This is actually a good point that I didn't pick up on until I saw this post. I didn't realize how bad alot of the SuiBlack creatures are in multiples and how different this guy is; i.e. multiples vampires would make each other even bigger.

It's really too bad there are no decent low cc "Creature - Vampire" cards in the game that could fill out the low part of the curve and get the pump from Nocturnus. If nothing else, his ability should have read "other black creatures get +2/+1 and flying" and not "vampires get +2/+1"

[Forbiddian]

This is actually a good point that I didn't pick up on until I saw this post. I didn't realize how bad alot of the SuiBlack creatures are in multiples and how different this guy is; i.e. multiples vampires would make each other even bigger.

It's really too bad there are no decent low cc "Creature - Vampire" cards in the game that could fill out the low part of the curve and get the pump from Nocturnus. If nothing else, his ability should have read "other black creatures get +2/+1 and flying" and not "vampires get +2/+1"

The problem is the restriction on Suicide black creatures -- they can't cost 4. Nocturnus looks interesting, but I think it would have to be a lot stronger to unlock an entirely new casting cost bracket for Suicide or Eva Green.

Also, Sui doesn't have library manipulation, so Nocturnus is a 3/3 groundbound 1/3rd of the time and you can't do anything about it. Top does not fit into Suicide's gameplan.

It's "good in multiples," meaning they are a pair of 7/5 flyings 2/3rds of the time and they're a pair of 3/3s 1/3rd of the time. That averages between 5 and 6 power. Without a buddy, it's a 5/4 flying 2/3rds of the time and a 3/3 flying 1/3rd of the time = just under 5 power on average.

Even if we assume the drawback is never in effect, a 4 mana 5/4 is not nearly good enough to make it into Suicide. You can get a similar amount of power for 1G, etc. etc. Even if conceptually, it seems "nice" or "cute" for the creatures to "work together," it's relatively rare that your opponent will let you have two 5/4 flyings. Before working together, Suicide has to make sure each of its threat is a good standalone.

[mujadaddy]

It's really too bad there are no decent low cc "Creature - Vampire" cardsIt's really weak that Vampire Bats are just Bats :laugh:

[MTG-Fan]

The problem is the restriction on Suicide black creatures -- they can't cost 4. Nocturnus looks interesting, but I think it would have to be a lot stronger to unlock an entirely new casting cost bracket for Suicide or Eva Green.

Also, Sui doesn't have library manipulation, so Nocturnus is a 3/3 groundbound 1/3rd of the time and you can't do anything about it. Top does not fit into Suicide's gameplan.

It's "good in multiples," meaning they are a pair of 7/5 flyings 2/3rds of the time and they're a pair of 3/3s 1/3rd of the time. That averages between 5 and 6 power. Without a buddy, it's a 5/4 flying 2/3rds of the time and a 3/3 flying 1/3rd of the time = just under 5 power on average.

Even if we assume the drawback is never in effect, a 4 mana 5/4 is not nearly good enough to make it into Suicide. You can get a similar amount of power for 1G, etc. etc. Even if conceptually, it seems "nice" or "cute" for the creatures to "work together," it's relatively rare that your opponent will let you have two 5/4 flyings. Before working together, Suicide has to make sure each of its threat is a good standalone.

I already stated earlier that I didn't think it would see competitive play unless it cost BB or even maybe BBB or BB1, but thanks for being a dick needlessly and missing the point of my last reply entirely (i.e. a reply to an interesting segue about the nature of mono-black creatures, not any kind of revelation about this particular card's playability)

[TheCramp]

Yup that's all true. here is what I have sketched out in my head, not a suicide black deck.

Green:

4 Tarmogoyf

Artifact:

3 Top

Black:

4 Vampire Nocturnus
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ritual
4 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy (As long as you are going to deed, therapy seems good with the two drops.)
2 Tomb Stalker
2 Maelstrom Pulse (As a bad, but black, grip/seal. Vindicate could jump in...)
4 Deed

21 Land w/ 1 Stronghold and 3 wastelands (maybe not worth it w/out sink hole.)

Anyway, that's off the top of my head. It's around what I have been thinking. I may be way off base. Testing will bring that into the light of day in a heart beat. Feel free to flame.

[lordofthepit]

The card isn't better than Tombstalker, but it's good enough to be considered. What some people are missing is that unlike Tombstalker, this card will allow you to play Confidant, and their disadvantages of "revealing" your draws are mitigated by playing them together. It's not Tombstalker vs. Nocturnus, it's Tombstalker + weak card vs. Nocturnus + Confidant (+ Top). Is that good enough? Perhaps, I don't know, but it certainly merits consideration.

Also, having two of these on the board would be amazing. Two 7/5 flyers. Perhaps not a very common situation, but it'd be worth seeing the look on your opponent's face. =)

Or add Mutavault or some other Vampire to further abuse this guy.

[Barook]

Or add Mutavault or some other Vampire to further abuse this guy.
Mutavault sounds like an awesome idea, considering all black changelings and other vampires are more horrible than Twilight.

[MTG-Fan]

Hmmm... 4/3 Flying manland. Sexy.

Now if only Mishra's Factory qualified as a "Vampire".

[DragoFireheart]

I think we can all agree that this vampire basically needs Top to ensure a black card is always on the top.

[TheCramp]

I think we can all agree that this vampire basically needs Top to ensure a black card is always on the top.

Yup, it needs top. Volrath's Stronghold would go in for support as well. I'm going to do some testing tomorrow for the hell of it. Mutavault is the only other playable vampire, and seems pretty good on paper. Perhaps at the cost of running wasteland. I was thinking of running deed, which wasteland sort of doesn't combo with.

[MEATROCKET]

I think we can all agree that this vampire basically needs Top to ensure a black card is always on the top.

Painter might do a better job :tongue:

And while we're playing Painter on black, let's go ahead and toss in Nantuko Blightcutter (aka 3 mana Progenitus) and Reap + Intuition + Lotus Petals/LED for infinite storm and mana. Okay, that might be terrible, but I'll do it.

[Moczoc]

It's really weak that Vampire Bats are just Bats :laugh:

I can't believe it! I was just putting together a deck with them in my mind. Look at their name, they ARE vampires .. that is so stupid and unintuitive :/

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It requires you to go monoblack and died to Lightning Bolt half the time even then.

No.

[Skeggi]

I know Juzám Djinn doesn't fly and whether Phyrexian Scuta is better is debatable. Point is, this thing costs 4 mana and is dependant of your deck having alot of black and you need something like Sensei's Divining Top and a free mana every turn to make it any good. That said, if you have 2 in play and you have a black card on top of your library, they're pretty cool. But that's all just casual talk as far as I'm concerned.


I can't believe it! I was just putting together a deck with them in my mind. Look at their name, they ARE vampires .. that is so stupid and unintuitive :/

http://ladyfi.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/vampire-bat-1.jpg

No, they're just bats.

[MTG-Fan]

Well, a semi-decent Vampire from the new set has been spoiled:

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/features/42a_8l3wt8rxpi_EN.jpg

Lifelink help offset the lifeloss from Bobs? If you can get your Top spinning with Nocturnus out in play, a 4/2 flier with lifelink for 2 mana isn't that terrible.

Then again, it's not that great either. I could see this working in Standard, maybe, but unfortunately Standard doesn't have SDT, which this lord really really needs, but the format wherein you can play SDT is too fast for these Vampires. Sigh.

[mujadaddy]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/features/42a_8l3wt8rxpi_EN.jpgThat's actually a pretty decent BLACK creature, not just "vampire"...

[MTG-Fan]

Can you please tell me what the origin of your avatar is?

I want to know what horrible TV show/movie that's from so I never ever have to watch it.

[mujadaddy]

Can you please tell me what the origin of your avatar is?

I want to know what horrible TV show/movie that's from so I never ever have to watch it.
That's me, playing my white bordered Flagbearer/Angel deck. The knife is mandatory.

[keys]

That's me, playing my white bordered Flagbearer/Angel deck. The knife is mandatory.

I lol'd cause I know what this is from and that's the best description ever.