June 20th B/R Update Any Guesses

[Dan Turner]

June 20th is the release of the B/R list by the DCI.


Do we see any thing major coming up on that date. Things I would like to see.


LEGACY
1.)Ban Counterbalance-By banning counterbalance it will open up a lot more of the field to competition.

2.)Ban Goyf- We will never see this since there is plenty of removal but I would like to see it.

I will put more here as I think of it.

[leander?]

Nothing. Just nothing. The format feels perfectly healthy for me.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Obviously I would like to see Goyf banned. I wouldn't mind seeing any other one or two heavily prevalent cards being banned; Brainstorm and LED rank top of the list. I could probably reconcile myself to Top being banned, but it would be hard.

I'd also like to see some cards unbanned. Mind Twist, Land Tax, Dream Halls. I'm not sure what else.

[kroelai]

I guess they would prefer banning top (like in Extented) over CB because of the time that is 'lost' on topping during a game.

Mind Twist would be cool if it would come back.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I Guess they would prefer banning top (like in Extented) over CB because of the time that is 'lost' on topping during a game

Pfffffffffffffffffffft.

Yeah, that was the reason.

[Julian23]

I really would appreciate Top being banned. It takes up so much time during a match when at least player is using top and fetchlands....besides that it would push back counterbalance which opens up space for innovation. I my opinion you can't call a format "healthy" if the presence of one single cards makes a removal spell better if it costs three or four instead of two.

Goyf being banned would be fine with me although I don't think it's necessary once Top gets the axe.

[leander?]

..because of the time that is 'lost' on topping during a game.
I've never really had troubles with this, actually.

[kroelai]

Me neither, but thats the way wizards seems to see that card.
As they said, it was (one of) the main reason that it was banned in Extented.

I like the format, and I believe it is pretty balanced.
The only thing I hope to see is that there will be some more unbannings.

[AngryTroll]

June 20th is the release of the B/R list by the DCI.


Do we see any thing major coming up on that date. Things I would like to see.


LEGACY
1.)Ban Counterbalance-By banning counterbalance it will open up a lot more of the field to competition.

2.)Ban Goyf- We will never see this since there is plenty of removal but I would like to see it.

I will put more here as I think of it.

Things I would do if I was a moderator:
Drop the (24-hour or 48-hour) Banhammer on everyone that calls for the banning of Goyf, Top, or Counterbalace, or the unbanning of Land Tax. Then I'd lock this thread.

We get it. Nothing has changed since last time this argument was made. I bet there are several hundred pages of the Goyf, Counterbalance, and Top argument just on these boards. Please, please, please, could June 20th come with no discussion about those cards?

Now, some of the other cards on the Banned List, those could be interesting. But not the obvious ones. Discuss the unbanning of cards like Entomb, a card that might push some archetypes a bit too far, and will actually see play. That was an interesting discussion. Land Tax? Boring.

[mujadaddy]

Deer WotC,

Moar MindTwistz

~muj

[sunshine]

Honestly, Countertop is strong but not degenerate. I don't think either will or should be banned right now. Also, I doubt Goyf will ever get the ban hammer. The format is pretty diverse at the moment I would be surprised if there were any changes at all.

[Michael Keller]

Ban:
Lion's Eye Diamond

Un-ban:
Mind Twist
Dream Halls
Illusionary Mask
Time Spiral


Just my hunches. All of the cards I mentioned have close functional reprints or cards that do similar things and have not degenerated the format a bit. Why keep them on, really? Mask is good but Stifle on a 'Nought or even Vision Charm works too. Sure, it's uncounterable. But it still dies to Krosan Grip, as does the Mask. And with the coinciding removal of L.E.D., Time Spiral would give Solidarity a shot in the arm again, and turn the tides so to speak. They might remove High Tide if things got crazy. That, however, is a long-shot.

And L.E.D., I'm sorry but with any tutor the card becomes busted in this format. The ability to generate that kind of mana by abusing the stack is probably something they've taken into consideration before, anyways. Some would say ban Dark Ritual before L.E.D., and I can see that argument.

Everyone's a skeptic.

EDIT: I really hate these threads because people guess and guess and since 2004 nothing has really impressed me when it comes to bannings/restrictions/unrestrictions. For the love of God, I want to see something different. Give me Mind Twist or give me death!

[pi4meterftw]

Why ban brainstorm? In vintage it's able to do ridiculous things like finding broken cards, which is why wizards doesn't want players to dig 3 for U. But in type 1.5, unless wizards bans ponder also, which it won't, since they won't think seeing 3 for U is too powerful, they would have to reason that the consistency-enabling of brainstorm is too powerful. But it's obviously not. Brainstorm followed by fetch is great, but it's not as if brainstorm is even as good as U: draw 3 shuffle 2 into your library. I have, on many occasions, simply failed to find a fetch, even though I had to brainstorm. Being able to brainstorm and top is part of what makes legacy a good format. (Because you don't have to deal with the consistency issues of other formats.) For some reason, people still don't play blue. The other part is that you don't have to keep buying cards.

Why ban counterbalance? Some decks don't even need to do anything to get around it. See: the deck I top 8'd goyfless with. Both stompy decks, or any deck running chalice of the void for that matter. (Stax.) Any build of affinity, ichorid. On top of that, there exists a card that kills it with (almost) no questions asked, krosan grip. Lastly, even if you fail to remove the "lock," it is still highly mana intensive and can be overpowered with play skill. In fact, it is this play skill that makes some games with counterbalance quite interesting. Example, from a game played against Forbiddian:

Me trying to resolve a jitte for the win. I wasteland his polluted delta to force him to lose the shuffling effect or to shuffle his library.

Those are plays I wouldn't normally even think of making. Counterbalance forces you to think more than you normally would have to.

I've already argued SDT should not be banned. I never saw LED as overpowered, but then again I am one of the pilots of nogoyf.dec, and that deck doesn't really have any truly negative matchups in any reasonable metagame, so my standards are adjusted and what I think is broken might be shifted. But it really ought not to be looked at that way. First off there are many decks that can handle the issues people often complain about, and secondly wizards isn't obligated to ensure those that can't survive. "Dear WOTC. I can't play kithkins in legacy. Could you please ban:

Ad Nauseam
Goyf
Counterbalance
Brainstorm
Sensei's divining top
LED
Ichorid
......
.
.
.





life from the loam
seismic assault
.....
.
.
.








wirewood hivemaster
cruel ultimatum
ignite memories
nicol bolas
......
.
.
."

[b4r0n]

June 20th is like 3 weeks away. This thread seems a bit premature.

But anyways, I don't think anything is going to get banned. As much as some people complain about Goyf or Counterbalance or Top or LED, these cards hold our format together and allow for the diversity that you currently see. I wouldn't expect any changes.

[beastman]

Im crossing my fingers for the banning of basic islands and/or force of will.

[stuckpixel]

I really don't see anything being banned. I could see some cards unbanned - like dream halls and mind twist.

[Forbiddian]

I would like to see nothing get banned.

The recent huge tournament (Chicago) presented a very balanced metagame and I wouldn't want Wizards to do anything on insufficient information.

Legacy is supposed to move slowly.

[elof]

I would like to see nothing get banned.

The recent huge tournament (Chicago) presented a very balanced metagame and I wouldn't want Wizards to do anything on insufficient information.

Legacy is supposed to move slowly.


Same here, however some unbannings would be fine by me, but not necessary.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I don't honestly see why anyone is calling for Goyf to be banned. It's just a big dumb creature. I will admit that his ubiquity is pretty annoying (Hell I even play him in my aluren build. Yeah. He's everywhere.), but I rarely think to myself "Wow, if Tarmogoyf wasn't such a broken card I totally could have won that game" or such. As for CB and Top I really don't think either is that horrible for the format. I may hate those decks, but they're really not that hard to deal with. There's a lot of cards that hose the pair, so I feel it's okay for them to be around.

There are a lot of cards I'd like to see unbanned though. Mind Twist, Dream Halls, Time Spiral, Land Tax, Skullclamp (I can dream...)

I really don't see why Mind Twist should still be on the banlist. It doesn't seem like it would really be that destructive.

[THEchubbymuffin]

Ban extirpate.

Reason: Some people still think it is a good card. And instead of listening to them, i would rather instead say "doesn't matter its banned." They would reply, "ITS BANNED BECAUSE IT IS AWESOME" . and i would point at land tax.

[kicks_422]

As most have said, I too think nothing needs to be banned. Banning one of the usual suspects (Goyf, Counterbalance and/or Top, and LED) would make the other cards in the list just look stronger.

For example, banning Top (and thereby nerfing Counterbalance), would make Storm combo such a huge force. I think that with the evolution that Storm combo has gone through, "simple" countermagic just won't consistently be able to stop the barrage of spells.

[mercenarybdu]

There won't be any changes. But if there was a change, then we could expect some interesting results at future events.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Things I would do if I was a moderator:
Drop the (24-hour or 48-hour) Banhammer on everyone that calls for the banning of Goyf, Top, or Counterbalace, or the unbanning of Land Tax. Then I'd lock this thread.

We get it. Nothing has changed since last time this argument was made. I bet there are several hundred pages of the Goyf, Counterbalance, and Top argument just on these boards. Please, please, please, could June 20th come with no discussion about those cards?

Now, some of the other cards on the Banned List, those could be interesting. But not the obvious ones. Discuss the unbanning of cards like Entomb, a card that might push some archetypes a bit too far, and will actually see play. That was an interesting discussion. Land Tax? Boring.

Ah, but if we had your way we'd have a dictatorship of fear, where everyone was too afraid of discussing bannings to broach any topics you'd consider "interesting". This is the price you pay when you casually trod on free speech; you wind up with a lot of useless, fluffy crap.

Anyway.

I was thinking about the whole Top/Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Goyf thing and I actually came to a conclusion;

Almost none of these cards would present anything like a problem if they just banned fetchlands.

I'm not really sure Fetchlands ever should have been printed. They de facto obsolete every other multicolor land except for five color lands in combo and the dual lands they get. They can get any color dual land while still also being able to grab basics to make you resilient against non-basic hate. They're all that make silly four color decks splashing white for StP or green for Tarmogoyf possible.

Then again, at the end of the day, I'm not sure I want them to do that either. But it would certainly be the most interesting thing they could do.

[spirit of the wretch]

Ban:
Top
LED

Unban:
Mind Twist
Dream Halls
Illusionary Mask
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon

Mind Twist: Early game it's a worse Hymn, late game discard is pretty useless
Dream Halls: Too clunky to be a broken combo enabler. Inferior to Ad Nauseam.
Illusionary Mask: Without the Errata on Dreadnought, I don't see why this should be banned.
Land Tax: Ok, let's not get into this again.
Worldgorger Dragon: Combo is inferior to Cephalid Breakfast which is inferior to PainterStone.

To kick off some debate: Does anybody think any of the aforementioned candidates for unbanning is actually broken in this format?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually, I thought about it, and banning fetchlands is dumb. Forget that idea. It would be the simplest way to throw a huge disruption into the metagame, but while I'm not sure they should have been printed in the first place, such a disruption is ultimately unfair to the Eternal player who collects at a slower pace than Standard or Extended and wants some stability. Banning Goyf I think would be much less noticeable. It would make Wrath/Damnation really good again as Zoo and Tribal become the best creature strategies.

And no, spirit, I think those are all fine to unban. I would throw in Entomb. Although never, ever, ever Bazaar.

I personally would rather they ban Brainstorm than Top. Blue is already hogging all the card draw; cutting off quality card selection to non-blue decks seems like it would only reinforce the dominance of Blue in Legacy.

[4eak]

These threads are fun.

Probably nothing will happen. If something does, I have no guesses.

I have no problem with heavy bannings or massive upheaval in a format. Fast paced and truly-wide open metagame evolution rocks. Our playgroup routinely adds peculiar rules or makes bannings to a format just for a night or two to see and think about what it would look like. People who are attached to their collector items wouldn't appreciate it /shrug, but I'd be happy to play in format whose banlist was based upon card prices and popularity.





peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Banning fetchlands would fuck up entire collections in a broad sense, and it would kill a lot of the appeal of the eternal formats. Especially given that they're now like, what, six-seven years old; older than Survival or Trix or Stompy when I first started playing 1.5.

I wouldn't mind if they had rotating core numbers, though. Like, one year starting hand size was 5 or 9, one year starting life was 15 or 30, one year minimum deck size was 50 or 80, one year the maximum number of copies you could play of each card was 3 or 5. Those kinds of alterations to the basic rules of the game I find interesting. But then, I think that's what this new Planes thing is about.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Nothing relevant will be unbanned. If anything is unbanned, it'll be overplayed for a month, then maybe one or two will find a place in one and only one deck.

[C.P.]

Banning fetchlands would fuck up entire collections in a broad sense, and it would kill a lot of the appeal of the eternal formats. Especially given that they're now like, what, six-seven years old; older than Survival or Trix or Stompy when I first started playing 1.5.

I wouldn't mind if they had rotating core numbers, though. Like, one year starting hand size was 5 or 9, one year starting life was 15 or 30, one year minimum deck size was 50 or 80, one year the maximum number of copies you could play of each card was 3 or 5. Those kinds of alterations to the basic rules of the game I find interesting. But then, I think that's what this new Planes thing is about.

IBA, what did you smoke last night?

Banning the Fetchlands is very interesting thought experiment. I have no idea how the decks even look like, let alone predicting the metagame. One thing for sure though, things like Daze or Brainstorm grant lose its power, making blue weaker. Is it good for the format? No idea.

But changeing the core numbers? What, you think MtG does not have high enough entry barrier already? 20, 7, 60(40), 15. These should not go anywhere. Never.


EDIT: Right, this was B&R discussion. Top looks bit sketch, but I hope it stays. Other parts of Legacy looks fine for now, but some unbannings will be interesting.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You forgot 4.

I disagree that these should never change. It certainly throws a wrench into things, but having these variables change would make deck design incredibly interesting. It'd also be an interesting way to shift things around without bannings or power creep.

And I already had the thought experiment about fetchlands. I came to the conclusion that losing whole swaths of classic cards isn't what the Eternal formats are about.

[quicksilver]

You forgot 4.

I disagree that these should never change. It certainly throws a wrench into things, but having these variables change would make deck design incredibly interesting. It'd also be an interesting way to shift things around without bannings or power creep.

It's called new formats. For example highlander changes the card limit to 1 copy.

[C.P.]

You forgot 4.

I disagree that these should never change. It certainly throws a wrench into things, but having these variables change would make deck design incredibly interesting. It'd also be an interesting way to shift things around without bannings or power creep.


Being very interesting does not answer my concerns about entry barrier. Any magic player who's worth his own salt has feeling about his numbers. You know, by experience, what happens if you run 20, 22, 24 lands in 60 card deck. This applies thoughout entire constructed format, and is one of the things that brings the game together.

Now, take that kid who plays Standard, give him 80 card deck, and tell him to build his deck. Unless this poor chump is a Stats Bastard, this poor chump has no idea what he's doing, feeling he should go back to his old format. To be fair, I've seen 69 or 100 card eternal tourney that ran well, but that is because it is one time thing that looks fun for once. Make this longer and people find it repelling.

You may argue it is like playing limited, and yes, it is like trying to build limited manabase for the first time, and it is hard unless someone yells that magical number 17. I suppose we could do the same thing, but limited does not need additional entry barrier of having to buy Duals and Co. Legacy should do anything it can, as long as it does not take away essence of the format, to keep its entry barrier low.

[Tacosnape]

Format's healthy.

And unbanning Mind Twist is an awful idea.

[JeroenC]

It's called new formats. For example highlander changes the card limit to 1 copy.

This. Messing with entire existing formats just makes new formats. Formats aren't made to change.

[mujadaddy]

unbanning Mind Twist is an awful idea.Why is that? said the :b: mage.

[C.P.]

Why is that? said the :b: mage.

Wait until your aggro opponent topdecks it and take away your hard earned Card Advantage! said the Control Player that does not play counters.

[emidln]

1) Nerf multicolored blue decks
2) ???
3) Profit

??? = Play TES

The Mind Twist argument isn't because it makes Dark Rit decks good. It's because the problematic decks don't run Dark Rit. They accelerate with permanent mana sources like Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond where they are able to very effectively 4-6 for one you on turn 2-3 after casting a lock piece or threat (which may or may not resolve, it doesn't matter because it's just bait with a huge bonus if it resolves). After the early game accel, Mind Twist is the ultimate bomb if pushed through. Not only is it the ultimate bomb, but everything gets to splash it because it's really a blue card in disguise (like everything with only a single color requirement and no tribal requirements).

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

As has been said before, it really doesn't seem like anything needs to be banned. There are many competitive decks in all of the major archetypes, and that's about as healthy a metagame as you can ask for.

Of course, I hope they test that new lotus extensively for the eternal formats; I wouldn't be suprised to see it restricted in Vintage from the word go.

[mujadaddy]

The Mind Twist argument isn't because it makes Dark Rit decks good. It's because the problematic decks don't run Dark Rit. They accelerate with permanent mana sources like Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond where they are able to very effectively 4-6 for one you on turn 2-3 after casting a lock piece or threat (which may or may not resolve, it doesn't matter because it's just bait with a huge bonus if it resolves). After the early game accel, Mind Twist is the ultimate bomb if pushed through. Not only is it the ultimate bomb, but everything gets to splash it because it's really a blue card in disguise (like everything with only a single color requirement and no tribal requirements).I'm not hearing a problem here... :laugh: :tongue:

...I suppose the fact that it's a virtual-:u: card is reason enough to keep it banned, but darnit... I miss playing with it. Oh, and Black Vise.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Ban:
Lion's Eye Diamond

Un-ban:
Mind Twist
Dream Halls
Illusionary Mask
Time Spiral



I'm not sure you are hearing yourself think. Can you imagine Spring Tide with up to 4x Time Spiral? I think that's a scary thought.

LED is a balanced card. With having to crack it in response before passing priority and tossing your hand, it's fair. Especially since a Chant in response to the tutor after the cracking of 1-2 LED's means tossing your hand and taking mana burn.

I think Counterbalance should be banned over Top. Top is good, but Counterbalance is the problem. Not Top. If there were no CB, Top would not ever be considered a problem, let alone a potential ban-hammer target.

Goyf isn't going to be banned. Evar. Too vanilla, not broken enough. Morphling used to be considered the best creature in the game and that never got banned. And it's blue.

I can't think

Pce,

--DC

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

LED is a balanced card. With having to crack it in response before passing priority and tossing your hand, it's fair. Especially since a Chant in response to the tutor after the cracking of 1-2 LED's means tossing your hand and taking mana burn.

Not for long...:rolleyes:

[andrew77]

I really think that everyone who wants LED banned, but not goyf or a piece of counterbalance/top just dislikes playing against combo.

If you look at the metagame LED does almost nothing to warp it. Combo decks make up a very small percentage of the field. Also look at how defensive combo decks have become over the years. Decks like belcher and SI were played. Back in the day TES only ran 4 xantids for defence. This was because it didn't have to worry about things like counterbalance/top, stifle or even goyf. Yes, I just said goyf. This is why goyf is formatwarping imo. It affects your mathcup against all decks including combo. Before goyf tempo decks couldn't kill you right after disrupting you on the combo turn. Werebears and mongeese would take a while and usually let you fight back and attempt to combo off again. Goyf just rips your head off right away.

Basically I would say ban goyf since he warps the format more than anything else imo, but it's almost guaranteed that won't happen, so banning counterbalance or top seems alright although I don't think either causes any problems besides making the games where they land unfun. They banned trinisphere for that in vintage though so maybe top/cb will get banned.

If goyf and a counterbalance/top piece get banned though then LED would probably also deserve to be banned, but I would be surprised since it hasn't dominated at any GP's or large events and it will take a while for combo decks to take off anyway, since they need experienced pilots to achieve results and most of the pro players prefer playing control.

[from Cairo]

I doubt they will ban anything, the format seems very healthy right now.

[3duece]

I believe counterbalance should go because it is the most format warping card around. By that I mean it is forces players to up the average cc of decks in order to play around counterbalance or play counterbalance themselves. Half a year ago it seemed in every thread on here people would include cards because they 'got around counterbalance'. Now counterbalance players run maindeck trygon, grip and/or sower because it 'rounds out the counterbalance curve.' I feel the combo generates entirely too much card advantage at too low a cost. 1 colorless mana for +1 card advantage over the opponent is not fair, not even in vintage a lot of the time. And as a landstill player I can safely say that even decks people say are less affected by counterbalance are severely hindered by it. I would love to see it gone because weenie decks would exist again, combo would get it's piece of the pie back and control decks beyond landstill and MUC would have to play actual countermagic to execute their strategies.

[C.P.]

Goyf isn't going to be banned. Evar. Too vanilla, not broken enough. Morphling used to be considered the best creature in the game and that never got banned. And it's blue.

I can't think


You clearly cannot. Remember that time when Kird Ape ate that Banhammer? While I don't see a point of banning Goyf, 'Too Vanilla' is not enough reason for not banning a creature. Imagine Dreadnaught, except without errata and trample. Too Vanilla, Right? Should never get banned, right?

[Anusien]

No change in any format.

[Gekoratel]

I don't see them keeping Vintage the same to many people are unhappy with the complete and utter dominance of Tezzeret.

[3duece]

I definitely see vintage changing, at least getting ponder and flash back. Without merchant scroll and brainstorm these cards become the good utility tools they were meant to be. Maybe balance too.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

1) Nerf multicolored blue decks
2) ???
3) Profit

??? = Play TES

The Mind Twist argument isn't because it makes Dark Rit decks good. It's because the problematic decks don't run Dark Rit. They accelerate with permanent mana sources like Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond where they are able to very effectively 4-6 for one you on turn 2-3 after casting a lock piece or threat (which may or may not resolve, it doesn't matter because it's just bait with a huge bonus if it resolves). After the early game accel, Mind Twist is the ultimate bomb if pushed through. Not only is it the ultimate bomb, but everything gets to splash it because it's really a blue card in disguise (like everything with only a single color requirement and no tribal requirements).

It's a blue card in an Ancient Tomb deck where it's busted because on turn four-six you can make your opponent discard their hand?

What?

No.

Just, no.

I say this as one of the people in Legacy that actually plays non-blue control decks.

I have scarier things to deal with than a turn four-six Mind Twist for my hand.

List of things that are way scarier than Mind Twist:

- Deed
- Scepter-Chant
- Haunting Echoes
- Devastating Dreams
- Armageddon
- Balance-Top
- Smokestack
- Elspeth
- DoJ
- Burn generally
- Brain Freeze
- Survival of the Fittest + Anger/Genesis
- Painter-Grindstone
- Ichorid
- Breakfast
- Any combo, basically
- Any fast aggro deck, basically
- Any game-breaking bomb that costs four or more mana and is actually played, basically.

[from Cairo]

It's a blue card in an Ancient Tomb deck where it's busted because on turn four-six you can make your opponent discard their hand?

I have scarier things to deal with than a turn four-six Mind Twist for my hand.


I think he was saying that it's scary to him in Tomb decks cause they can power a Twist for 4-6 out earlier than turn 5-7, IE like turn 3ish.

But I agree with you that it's not the biggest thing to worry about. If you're playing a permanent based deck you've probably played a decent chunk of your hand out by turn 3-4, if you're playing a permission deck you don't let it resolve. Not to mention the disruption decks that don't allow Tomb decks to have 5+ mana in the early game; Wasteland/Sinkhole or Moon effects.

Like IBA listed I think there's alot more worrisome things that can happen turn 3-4 (not to mention turn 1-2) than Mind Twist. The card seems reasonable to be taken off the banned list IMO.

[caiomarcos]

1s turn - mox, tomb, trini
2nd turn - twist for 3

Or even...

1st turn - whatever
2nd turn - ritual, twist for 3

An early twist for 3 is enough to win games. Or am I doing it wrong?

[Dark_Cynic87]

You clearly cannot. Remember that time when Kird Ape ate that Banhammer? While I don't see a point of banning Goyf, 'Too Vanilla' is not enough reason for not banning a creature. Imagine Dreadnaught, except without errata and trample. Too Vanilla, Right? Should never get banned, right?

Yes it is a reason, clearly when they banned Kird Ape they were mistaken; that and power level of cards are now at a different stage. That's an option, and I think it's what happened. You guys are thinking about Tarmogoyf from an optimistic perspective, in that it gets +1/+1 for each new type of card put into the graveyard, when in fact it could and probably should be seen as a downside to the card that you have to get cards in your graveyard before it gets big, some of which are probably worse choices than there would otherwise be because of trying to pump your goyf up. What's worse is that it reads both graveyards and this makes them all the same size all the time, leaving you in Goyf-Mate. I've said before and will continue to say that Tarmogoyf perpetuates it's own popularity. I'm not saying its a bad card, I use it and it does okay for me, I'm just saying it's not an object of my sexual desires either.

Now, if you think a 14/12 creature for 1G with no drawbacks can be considered "Vanilla", you should let me in on the silly-crazy lists you play, because in my world, a turn two 12/12 trampler that's ONLY played in lists that also have the best reactive protection (FoW, Daze, Spell Snare, CB) in the game is quite the scary thing to face. I'm obviously tossing a Rancor on it for the scenario, but wouldn't you? You are already willing to pay an additional U just to get a 12/12 trampler for a turn 3 swing for 12, so by that logic I think a 14/12 with Trample swinging on turn 2 might even be better. Definitely ban-worthy. But hey, in that world, I'm certain they would ban the Rancor before the D-nought (a blatant reference to CounterTop in extended).

Pce,

--DC

[mujadaddy]

1s turn - mox, tomb, trini
2nd turn - twist for 3

Or even...

1st turn - whatever
2nd turn - ritual, twist for 3

An early twist for 3 is enough to win games. Or am I doing it wrong?You're absolutely doing it wrong.

T1 - Swamp, double-Dark-Ritual, Twist for 4 :cool:

[quicksilver]

1s turn - mox, tomb, trini
2nd turn - twist for 3

Or even...

1st turn - whatever
2nd turn - ritual, twist for 3

An early twist for 3 is enough to win games. Or am I doing it wrong?

dark rit twist for 3 uses the same amount of mana and cards as double hymn, but hymn makes them discard 4 instead of 3. Seems inferior to what we have now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

1s turn - mox, tomb, trini
2nd turn - twist for 3

Or even...

1st turn - whatever
2nd turn - ritual, twist for 3

An early twist for 3 is enough to win games. Or am I doing it wrong?

This isn't really any scarier than first turn Magus of the Moon with a second turn Equipment, or first turn Trinisphere, second turn Crucible third turn Armageddon.

Or, for that matter, first turn Tendrils of Agony for 20.

But those decks aren't dominating. It's a funny thing about strategies that lose to themselves consistently.

"It's powerful" has not been a reason to ban Tendrils, or Lackey, or Goyf, or any card by itself. Legacy involves powerful cards interacting. In order to argue for it's deserving to be banned, it must be shown that a card does something more than merely thrashing goldfish. Essentially, you must show that it makes the format less interesting than it would be without such a card. This is exactly my argument for banning Goyf, for instance. But it doesn't apply to Mind Twist.

[caiomarcos]

dark rit twist for 3 uses the same amount of mana and cards as double hymn, but hymn makes them discard 4 instead of 3. Seems inferior to what we have now.

Are you sure?
Ritual + Twist for 3 = 2 cards, 1B
Double Hymn = 2 cards, BBBB

or you meant
Ritual + double Hymn = 3 cards, BB

or could be
Twist for 4 = 1 card, B+whatever you want to pay it with
Double hymn = 2 cards, BBBB

But the examples I gave are only the vanilla plays with Twist, it can get much more nasty than that.
The card is scalable, one-sided, splashable and carrying one of the most broken effects a Magic card can have - random discard. Tomb decks are not the only place it would fit.
Losing 3-5 cards for it feels more unfair than multiple CB hits or any other shit we have around. It really drives people mad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

But the examples I gave are only the vanilla plays with Twist, it can get much more nasty than that.

Yeah?

Go on...


The card is scalable, one-sided, splashable and carrying one of the most broken effects a Magic card can have - random discard.

I'm struggling really hard not to type "ahahahaha" etc., a bunch of times.

Random discard is so very, very far from the most broken thing in Legacy. And I even wanted Hymn up there on the new site banner, but damn.

Mind Twist costs a lot of goddamn mana.

You don't complain that someone spends a lot of goddamn mana and gets a decent effect out of it. Especially when it's dependent on their hand not already being empty because they've played a bunch of shit.


Tomb decks are not the only place it would fit.
Losing 3-5 cards for it feels more unfair than multiple CB hits or any other shit we have around. It really drives people mad.

I don't think you've done a reasonable census on this. I'd rather lose some cards now than not be able to play my cards for the rest of the game.

[Aleksandr]

Wake me up during the Land Tax argument...

:yawn:

[from Cairo]

1s turn - mox, tomb, trini
2nd turn - twist for 3

Or even...

1st turn - whatever
2nd turn - ritual, twist for 3

An early twist for 3 is enough to win games. Or am I doing it wrong?

The first example is a 6 card combo (Land, :2: Land, Mox, Card you pitch to Mox, Trinisphere, Mind Twist). Yea that's a nice start, but in this case you just busted your entire hand out to make the opponent discard 3 cards. With Trinisphere they probably can't play cards for a couple turns anyway, so you both sit there drawing, if they manage to make land drops they could definitely recover fine, there's no pressure on board.

It doesn't seem any more broken than turn 1 (:2: Land, SSG, Seething Song, Chal@1, Magus), which is 5 cards, disrupts any of the Fetch/Dual mana base decks, proactively blocks Swords and provides a clock. Either way both starts are going to be rare, but the Mind Twist worst case scenario doesn't seem that over powered for Legacy.

The second example doesn't seem broken either. Turn 1 Ritual into Thoughtseize + Hymn seems better. In the Rit + Mind Twist case, you're still devoting 2 cards and a developmental turn 2 worth of play for your opponent to discard 3 cards at random. They're untapping and drawing with you tapped down, again assuming you don't have like Wasteland + Goyf for Turn 3, than they aren't really under any pressure to recover, and again are only down 1 card compared to you.

[DragoFireheart]

Quick question that's a bit off-topic, but why was Top banned in Extended? (Officially)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Officially for time constraint reasons.

Really because NLU was busted but they didn't want to ban Goyf.

[kroelai]

Ah, but if we had your way we'd have a dictatorship of fear, where everyone was too afraid of discussing bannings to broach any topics you'd consider "interesting". This is the price you pay when you casually trod on free speech; you wind up with a lot of useless, fluffy crap.

Anyway.

I was thinking about the whole Top/Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Goyf thing and I actually came to a conclusion;

Almost none of these cards would present anything like a problem if they just banned fetchlands.

I'm not really sure Fetchlands ever should have been printed. They de facto obsolete every other multicolor land except for five color lands in combo and the dual lands they get. They can get any color dual land while still also being able to grab basics to make you resilient against non-basic hate. They're all that make silly four color decks splashing white for StP or green for Tarmogoyf possible.

Then again, at the end of the day, I'm not sure I want them to do that either. But it would certainly be the most interesting thing they could do.

hmm.. interesting, maybe this could be an idea for a new online source tournament.

Instead of Goyfless, a Fetchless tournament.

[Julian23]

As far as I remember because it eats up so much time so they didnt want it to be legal for PT Berlin...instead they got Elfball Mirrors lasting for ages in the playoffs...harhar ;-)

[caiomarcos]

The first example is a 6 card combo (Land, :2: Land, Mox, Card you pitch to Mox, Trinisphere, Mind Twist). Yea that's a nice start, but in this case you just busted your entire hand out to make the opponent discard 3 cards.

That's a pretty standard start for decks like that, not best case scenario. I didn't bust my entire hand to make the opp discard three cards, I busted a Mind Twist ONLY. The rest is just regular gameplay, had I a Mind Twist or not. It's not like the Mox, the Trini and the Tomb are there for the Twist and Twist alone.


It doesn't seem any more broken than turn 1 (:2: Land, SSG, Seething Song, Chal@1, Magus), which is 5 cards, disrupts any of the Fetch/Dual mana base decks, proactively blocks Swords and provides a clock. Either way both starts are going to be rare, but the Mind Twist worst case scenario doesn't seem that over powered for Legacy.

Pretty good play indeed, but arguing over specific situations is pointless, one can always describe a scenario where awesome plays sucks. I gave just a couple of examples from the top of my head, probably not the best of them.

I think that Mind Twist is too flexible, too splashable and with an effect too strong to safely unban it.

[from Cairo]

My point about busting your hand was you've exhausted most of your hand without putting any pressure on the opponent's life. I realize that in general Tomb based agro-disruption explodes onto the board early, and that the mana will stay on the board, but in a start like the one mentioned Mind Twist seems redundant, with a Trinisphere on board a bunch of 0-2cc cards have already lost alot of value until the sphere is answered.

People were stating that in Tomb/Ritual based decks Mind Twist would be too powerful and that's why it's banned, my Dragon Stompy example was just to illustrate that similarly powerful Tomb based openings are already present in Legacy, and in the case of Magus they put the opponent under the pressure of an attacker in addition to the disruption.

I feel like tempo of Mind Twist is slow enough in Legacy that it's not overpowered. In order to utilize it in a powerful way it requires expending an early turn's worth of mana and likely another card from hand to fuel a 1(2) for 3 discard spell. This coupled with the fact that discard inherently involves expending mana to prevent threats that the opponent doesn't have to expend mana on attempting to produce, I think balances out to a degree the card advantage gain.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Jesus, is this still going on?

Mind Twist is fucking bad, people. What the Hell are you going to play it in? It's worse than Hymn in Sui, and costs way too much for combo. I can't imagine myself playing it in MBC or Truffle Shuffle or anything like that. Demon Stompy? Are we really terrified that Demon Stompy's going to play a functional Hymn to Tourach?

[mujadaddy]

Jesus, is this still going on?Not really, it's just one guy.


Mind Twist--what the Hell are you going to play it in?I would probably use it as a one or two of, in addition to Hymns, in decks with Dark Ritual. It's better than unplayable jank -- it's narrow, playable, cool jank :cool:

[Arctic_Slicer]

June 20th B/R Update Any Guesses

My guess:

Legacy

No Changes.

If I'm right what do I win?

On a related note I recently wrote an E-mail to Tom LaPille presenting arguments on why Mind Twist and Land Tax should be unbanned.

[whienot]

Mind Twist would be fun in as a Wish target in Loam decks. Not great, but fun.

[lavafrogg]

I really don't want to sound like a horrible person here but mind twist is really fucking retarded.

Like seriously, with no acceleration whatsoever the card would be the dumbest card in the format, being tossed right along with tarmo and counterbalance to just ensure the game is over soon.

It dogdes counterbalance and would allow a slower deck to completly take your hand out of the game.

Its infinatly splashable and generally a really broken card. The one mana difference between mind twist and hymn is negligable.

I believe the best place for it would be aggro loam, mox turn one and turn two you can hymn them and after that you cripple them or strip their hand.
Landstill would now have mainboard discard to win the mirror match.

I don't see how it wouldn't be format warping in that it says force target player into topdeck mode, for the cost of one card, seems pretty good to me.

Im not sure how it would work in ritual decks but double rit mind twist turn one says force or lose, and any rit mind twist after turn one can simply win the match for you, it is pure card advantage.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I really don't want to sound like a horrible person here but mind twist is really fucking retarded.

Like seriously, with no acceleration whatsoever the card would be the dumbest card in the format, being tossed right along with tarmo and counterbalance to just ensure the game is over soon.

It dogdes counterbalance and would allow a slower deck to completly take your hand out of the game.

Its infinatly splashable and generally a really broken card. The one mana difference between mind twist and hymn is negligable.

I believe the best place for it would be aggro loam, mox turn one and turn two you can hymn them and after that you cripple them or strip their hand.
Landstill would now have mainboard discard to win the mirror match.

I don't see how it wouldn't be format warping in that it says force target player into topdeck mode, for the cost of one card, seems pretty good to me.

Im not sure how it would work in ritual decks but double rit mind twist turn one says force or lose, and any rit mind twist after turn one can simply win the match for you, it is pure card advantage.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13764

[Tilde]

hmm.. interesting, maybe this could be an idea for a new online source tournament.

Instead of Goyfless, a Fetchless tournament.

I'd rather see a tournament with the banned stuff people disagree about the quality of unbanned. We could call it the Quicherbichen Open.

Also: Is there any reason Illusionary Mask needs to stay banned? I don't find the interaction with Dreadnought that worrisome: Mask doesn't have the mana advantage of Vial or the versatility of Stifle; Mask is a turn slower if that's all your using it for; and the other ways to get Dreadnought into play haven't proven format-breaking. EDIT: Could be fun with morph triggers though.

[Arctic_Slicer]

If Mind Twist was broken Mind Shatter would be playable. Since it's printing in Morning Tide no one has so much as even considered putting that card into a deck let alone playing it. Mind Twist at one mana cheaper might actually be somewhat playable but in no way is the card broken; it can safely come off the banned list without causing problems.

The card was banned in 1.5 way back in 1994 and in the 15 years since magic has changed quite a bit making the card far easier to answer and therefor less devastating. The unbanning of this card is so long overdue that it's not funny and should be unbanned with the next update though I wont count on it actually happening.

[lavafrogg]

IBA- I cannot accept any comparison between mind twist and persicute, one hits lands and anything else it hits, one doesnt hit lands, I did read your arguement a page back that was very similar to mine(I posted first like a fool).

The problem with mind twist is that it can be played right next to alot of the cards you posted and it would have only a positive effect on the deck.

- Deed- in the same deck
- Scepter-Chant- not played
- Haunting Echoes- in the same deck
- Devastating Dreams- possibly in the same deck- this card is on the downswing due to its negative effect when countered
- Armageddon- not played
- Balance-Top- true/could be in the same deck
- Smokestack- not played
- Elspeth- same deck
- DoJ- same deck
- Burn generally-true
- Brain Freeze-true
- Survival of the Fittest + Anger/Genesis-same deck/or true
- Painter-Grindstone-same deck
- Ichorid-true
- Breakfast-same deck/true
- Any combo, basically-true
- Any fast aggro deck, basically-arguable
- Any game-breaking bomb that costs four or more mana and is actually played, basically.- arguable

Legacy is a scary format right now(and in general), any deck that took off on a slow start(or defensive) would generally get mind twisted out of the game, mind twist for someones hand is a really good way to protect your bomb and win the game and if it is backed by free countermagic then all the better.

Counterbalance is not bulletproff and if I had non grip removal I would like my opps. hand to be emptied before I play it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Honestly, lavafrogg, I don't know how else to explain to you that Mind Twist costs mana. A lot of mana, honestly, to be better than Hymn. Even to be slightly better than Hymn requires four mana, which is the cost on power houses like Elspeth, Damnation, Moat, Fact or Fiction and Goblin Ringleader. +2 CA for four mana isn't shocking, especially when it becomes dead in the mid game- exactly unlike most other four mana spells, which are designed for the mid game.

Frankly, there's not a lot of matchups or scenarios where you want to sit around to get to four or five mana to Mind Twist someone "out of the game" where they haven't already emptied their hand and kicked your ass. Most decks can flat-out win by that point.

I can tell you right now that Mind Twist would not be played in the same deck as DoJ or Elspeth or Haunting Echoes; white-based control has no use for discard, and black based would rather run Hymn since it can come out fast enough to stop combo and aggro decks. Loam, Breakfast, and the like would never run it because they need speed more, and would rather run the efficient Thoughtseize, Therapy, or Duress. No Balance-Top deck wants to tap out midgame to get rid of cards it wasn't going to let resolve in the first place.

Essentially, there's no good deck to run Mind Twist in. It's too slow. That's why it's barely touched in Vintage. It might see some odd play, but it would be far from the best discard spell, much less a format-warping card.

[mujadaddy]

Mind Twist was banned in 1.5 way back in 1994 and in the 15 years since magic has changed quite a bitYeh, Mind Twist is unrestricted in Vintage, for one, where it used to be restricted to a one-of.

[DragoFireheart]

I think it's safe to say that most of the cards that are not restricted in Vintage would be safe to not have banned in Legacy.

[Sims]

I think it's safe to say that most of the cards that are not restricted in Vintage would be safe to not have banned in Legacy.

Sweet, I can play Black Vise again? And Drain, Workshop, and Bazaar?! Fantastic!

[DragoFireheart]

Sweet, I can play Black Vise again? And Drain, Workshop, and Bazaar?! Fantastic!



I think it's safe to say that most of the cards that are not restricted in Vintage would be safe to not have banned in Legacy.

MOST, not ALL.

:)

[emidln]

It's a blue card in an Ancient Tomb deck where it's busted because on turn four-six you can make your opponent discard their hand?

Do you proofread your posts against what you're quoting? 4-6 cards on turn 2-3. It's game-ending on turn 2-3 against anything that it resolves against. Given your opening plays should be some combination of lock pieces (Chalice/Trinisphere-type bombs) and threats (something along the lines of Bitterblossom (in a more stax-ish build), Sea Drake, or Serendib Efreet) the early threats clear the way of counters (psuedo duresses) so that Mind Twist can resolve in your mid game (about turn 3) to put the opponent further behind than anything currently played can do. Opponents can come back from equipment like SoFI/Jitte, but they're unlikely to come back from no cards in hand even if they managed to counter your first 1-2 threats.

The pseudo-blue comment comes from the ability to splash it in any blue deck that wants it. Mind Shatter is not splashable. Mind Twist is a scalable bomb that interacts against control largely the same way that Orim's Chant does: control has a hard counter to survive it or they lose. This would be an excellent way to break NLU mirrors right now while being pretty damn effective against everything else. From an aggro-control or control standpoint compare it haunting echoes except that it actually affects things they can do right now.

[Sims]

MOST, not ALL.

:)

Cards that are banned in legacy but not restricted in vintage:



Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Dream halls
Earthcraft
Goblin Recruiter
Illusionary Mask
Hermit Druid
Land tax
Mana Drain
Mind Twist
Mishra's Workshop
Oath of Druids
Skullclamp
Timespiral
Of those cards, I think there is very few that are "safe" unbans... not most. My point still remains.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I want you to play out the ideal scenario for me where you have a first turn Chalice, a second turn threat, and a third turn Mind Twist for 4 where you haven't been cheating to draw extra cards.

Most of the time, if you empty your hand to make your opponent empty theirs, you're in similar situations- except they'll be drawing relevant cards off the top, and you'll be drawing more mana accel and Mind Twists that do nothing.

In truth, I could rattle off plenty of cards that if you get to five to seven mana break the game. In fact, I could start off with some that are even cheaper, like the aforementioned Moat, or Scepter-Chant, or any Planeswalker.

But I want to see if you actually thought about the math involved or if you were just bullshitting first.

[DragoFireheart]

Of those cards, I think there is very few that are "safe" unbans... not most. My point still remains.

I know the point you were making. I wasn't claiming any examples as that would lead to going into a discussion I am not interested in.

HOWEVER, what I am curious as to which of those could safely be unbanned in Legacy.

I'll say this now: these are strictly my opinion and I am not claiming to be 100% correct.

- I doubt Time Spiral would be an issue. If you have that sort of mana, there's a chance you will win anyways. It's effect is pretty powerful, but it is also six mana and will have you tapped out if you cast it on turn 6 or so.

- Land Tax, though I won't say anymore as that is a dead horse I won't beat further.

- Illusionary Mask could also see play. Dreadstill is really the only deck that will abuse it. You can always blow up the "token" in response or what not to stop a PD.

- Maybe Hermit Druid? Why is he banned in Legacy? Does Ichorid use it maybe?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You could safely unban Mind Twist, Land Tax, Hermit Druid, Earthcraft, Illusionary Mask, Dream Halls and Goblin Recruiter.

You could safely unban Mana Drain, but it costs too much and would hurt the format indirectly.

You could think about unbanning Black Vise, but it wouldn't be safe.

[Sims]

I'd agree with you on Tax, Twist, Earthcraft, and possibly druid.

Mask is only unbannable because no one would play it anyways, even though they cost and arm and a leg. Drain I'd love, but price tags again suck.

I think Dream Halls and Recruiter would be as unsafe as Vise.... Dream Halls Combo would still be a powerful engine that could still fuel some form of Storm combo. Recruiter... Might be safer than the other two but I still don't think the re-introduction of FCG into the format would be really healthy. FoWs can't always stop Lackey and Vial let alone Lackey and Food Chain, and FCG is much quicker than Vial Gobs.

edit: side note, FCG would make me want to play this format again.

[jthanatos]

You could safely unban Mana Drain.


As a MUC player, I support this statement and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[DragoFireheart]

You could safely unban Mind Twist, Land Tax, Hermit Druid, Earthcraft, Illusionary Mask, Dream Halls and Goblin Recruiter.

You could safely unban Mana Drain, but it costs too much and would hurt the format indirectly.

You could think about unbanning Black Vise, but it wouldn't be safe.


I don't agree with Goblin Recruiter. At all. I believe there was a time it WASN'T banned in legacy.

Food Chain Goblins changed that real quick. Maybe if Food chain was banned and recruiter was allowed.

I'm also iffy about Earthcraft as it screams elves and Priest of Titania. Isn't there some elf that can untap other elves or some queerness? (God I hate elves)

How would Mana Drain be abused? I think it was banned simply because it costed too much.

[TeenieBopper]

I don't agree with Goblin Recruiter. At all. I believe there was a time it WASN'T banned in legacy.

Food Chain Goblins changed that real quick. Maybe if Food chain was banned and recruiter was allowed.

I'm also iffy about Earthcraft as it screams elves and Priest of Titania. Isn't there some elf that can untap other elves or some queerness? (God I hate elves)

How would Mana Drain be abused? I think it was banned simply because it costed too much.

Food Chain Goblins is three turns slower than TES. Just saying.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that I didn't put my traditional B/R List thread post here. You fuckers should be thankful.

[Michael Keller]

- I doubt Time Spiral would be an issue. If you have that sort of mana, there's a chance you will win anyways. It's effect is pretty powerful, but it is also six mana and will have you tapped out if you cast it on turn 6 or so.

Are you sure about this? I mean, the only real viable deck it would be played in is Solidarity and you know that deck kind of untaps lands when it feels like it.

[Sims]

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that I didn't put my traditional B/R List thread post here. You fuckers should be thankful.

I forgot to put "In B4 Fakespam rant" in my last post, thank god I dodged that one.


Edit: Damn ninja edits- Regarding Time Spiral. Do you REALLY want to give Storm that kind of Draw 7? It might not fit into a traditional TES/AnT storm list but you can bet people will adapt lists for it.

[DragoFireheart]

Food Chain Goblins is three turns slower than TES. Just saying.

It's also got the aggro shell around it, so if the combo fails... well, it's goblins. They just beat face. Or they can try it again next turn.

If TES fizzles, it loses. It normally only gets one shot at comboing out.



EDIT: I'd also like to point out that I didn't put my traditional B/R List thread post here. You fuckers should be thankful.

Do you want a cookie?

[TeenieBopper]

It's also got the aggro shell around it, so if the combo fails... well, it's goblins. They just beat face. Or they can try it again next turn.



Yeah, because Goblins is so good in this format anymore.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, because Goblins is so good in this format anymore.

It's still a DTB, so I'm not sure what you are trying to imply.

[DragoFireheart]

Edit: Damn ninja edits- Regarding Time Spiral. Do you REALLY want to give Storm that kind of Draw 7? It might not fit into a traditional TES/AnT storm list but you can bet people will adapt lists for it.

If they can cast Time Spiral, they can cast AN. If they can cast AN, they might not want to cast Time Spiral against a deck with blue at the risk of giving them counter magic.

But, I see what you and another poster mean. It IS a potent card, but it isn't completely one sided.

[4eak]

Unbanning Mana Drain sounds interesting. Of course, that brings up the "mana burn being removed from the game" issue. *cough.

Any card that eliminates your opponent's tempo and simultaneously increases your own seems questionable to me, especially at 2cc. Mana Drain is a pretty awesome tempo card, but it is restricted by its mana color cost and role; It would do little for most decks, but it would dramatically improve a few select archetype. I think it would make Landstill too powerful, and I perhaps only Ichorid would have a strong chance to keep it in check.




peace,
4eak

[DragoFireheart]

Unbanning Mana Drain sounds interesting. Of course, that brings up the "mana burn being removed from the game" issue. *cough.

Any card that eliminates your opponent's tempo and simultaneously increases yours seems questionable to me. Mana Drain is a pretty awesome tempo card, but it is restricted by its mana cost and role to a select few archetypes. I think it would make Landstill too powerful, and only Ichorid would have a strong chance to keep it in check.




peace,
4eak

Yeah, Landstill decks would orgasm over Mana Drain becoming legal again. Whether this would make the deck overpowered or not I am unsure of.

[yawg07]

Shit, if they unban Mana Drain I will never play anything else haha
We could have viable Tezzeret and Gifts decks! :D

[emidln]

T1: Ancient Tomb -> Chalice for 1
T2: USea/(Fetch->Sea) -> Serendib Efreet
T3: City of Traitors -> Mind Twist for 4

That takes 6 cards.

This isn't actually all that hard and is a relatively benign draw for a U/B Chalice Stompy deck. This is the problem area. Decks with Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Moxen don't fit into your nice world of Dark Rits+Mind Twist = no card advantage. It's not hard to splash black into Faerie Stompy and BG Stompy with Bitterblossom/Goyf would probably be extremely good too.

[Rood]

I won't be shocked if CB/Goyf/LED/<Insert powerfulwtfbbqhaxcard here> gets banned to say the least. 1.5 has a bunch of cards I feel COULD be banned but probally won't be, and a ton of cards that could come off the banned list. Also LOL at unbanning Mana Drain.. no that shit stays right where it's at. Landstill > format no thank you.

[Arctic_Slicer]

The most obvious two cards to unban are Mind Twist and Land Tax. Those are the only two cards I mentioned in my letter to Tom LaPille as they are obviously the safest cards to remove and it's probably better to focus on a couple of cards at a time.

Earthcraft I could see unbanning but that might end up getting broken in combo Elves or something..

Hermit Druid is another possibility but it might make dredge decks too powerful.

Black Vise is this card any good anymore? 1-3 damage a turn if they are holding 5-7 cards during their upkeep respectively; no damage if they are holding less than that. As fast as this format is that doesn't seem very relevant and unless it comes down on the first turn or two will often do nothing. The most common argument against is that it hoses control and sure it can be kind of nasty if comes down on turn one but is it as dangerous as a resolved turn 1 Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial? Those cards hose control more than Black Vise ever did and for the same cost but they are legal in this format and Black Vise is not but then again you could make the case that Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey should have been banned the whole time but I disagree.

Illusionary Mask is probably the only other card I can see coming off of the list as Aether Vial seems to do the same thing but better and cheaper.

[Citrus-God]

Yeah, Landstill decks would orgasm over Mana Drain becoming legal again. Whether this would make the deck overpowered or not I am unsure of.

Fuck that, I'm playing Tezzeret on my fucking next turn, and winning via Painter + Grindstone!

I don't think Landstill would even exist anymore if Mana Drain were to be legal. In fact, I'm rooting for Mana Drain and Workshops to be unbanned.

[mogote]

Regarding Time Spiral:
Would this really push a sorcery speed High Tide deck from unplayed to broken? And is it really good without lands tapping for more than 1 mana? It's not like Diminishing Returns is played in overabundance. Diminishing Returns is 2 mana cheaper to cast but without the untap effect which really only is relevant with your lands generating 3+ mana in total.

[Arrowni]

How come people aren't talking about Worldgorger Dragon?

I mean, sure, Land Tax and Mind Twist are lame. Dream Halls sucks. But everyone and their mother knows that Worldgorger is the safest combo out there, disruptable by EVERYTHING; yet, it has the chance to become a niche deck for cards that aren't played otherwise. Bumping up combo so there are more things to play... What's not to love?

[spirit of the wretch]

How come people aren't talking about Worldgorger Dragon?


Yeah, in my opinion this is indeed the safest card to unban, because the combo plain and simple sucks balls!
Dragon < Breakfast < Painter

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

T1: Ancient Tomb -> Chalice for 1
T2: USea/(Fetch->Sea) -> Serendib Efreet
T3: City of Traitors -> Mind Twist for 4

That takes 6 cards.

This isn't actually all that hard and is a relatively benign draw for a U/B Chalice Stompy deck. This is the problem area. Decks with Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Moxen don't fit into your nice world of Dark Rits+Mind Twist = no card advantage. It's not hard to splash black into Faerie Stompy and BG Stompy with Bitterblossom/Goyf would probably be extremely good too.

This takes six cards;

T1: City of Brass -> Orim's Chant -> Lotus Petal -> Dark Ritual -> Dark Ritual -> Ad Nauseum

Let's assume, for the moment, that Efreet and Chalice and Mind Twist all resolve. If we're assuming they resolve and the opponent isn't playing combo, they still have three lands out at this point and probably a two drop of some kind. They can still draw anything off the top. And you're playing.... Demon Sea Stompy?

Basically, I'm struggling to see where you think this would be even remotely unhealthy for the format or something that Legacy couldn't handle. Legacy handles more busted turn threes than this on a regular basis. Let me tell you a one card play that's a thousand times more terrifying;

Player1: I'll draw first.
Player2: Um, okay. Ancient Tomb, Chalice for 1.
Player1: Draw for my turn. End the turn. Discard Golgari Grave Troll.
Player2: *proceeds to shit his pants*

Really. Do you honestly think this is the card that's going to break Legacy?

Also, @ the Mana Drain people;

Mana Drain decks that rely on resolving Mana Drain suck. Keep this in mind. You're not always going to be able to convince your opponent to hardcast Mindslaver.

[Arsenal]

Mana Drain would be a nice addition to MUC, an archetype that is tier 2 at best. Being able to drain for 2-4, allowing you to play a Keg/Disk/Shackles/etc. for essentially nothing, while keeping Islands untapped for protection wouldn't be game-breaking or anything, but it'd be a nice little boost in power that MUC needs. Again, not anything that'll instantly make MUC a tier 1 powerhouse, but it'll make it a bit more competitive than it is now.

[Arrowni]

In my opinion decks that use blue cards to get card advantage aren't worth strengthening at this very moment. As such, a card that may not be problematic by itself (Mana Drain) could create an unhealthy metagame (only blue decks being viable).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, well, I wouldn't unban the Drain for money reasons anyway. I would unban Worldgorger, Hermit Druid, et. al as being healthy combo enablers that are vulnerable to more than just counterspells, discard, and Orim's Chant- unlike Tendrils combo, for instance.

[andrew77]

If they don't ban goyf due to it being easy to answer why not unban bazaar? I doubt it would be as format warping as goyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Have you checked the price tags on Bazaar?

[andrew77]

Oh yeah, I guess I don't really take price into account since I also play type 1 and have most of the cards already.

[Dark_Shakuras]

If they don't ban goyf due to it being easy to answer why not unban bazaar? I doubt it would be as format warping as goyf.

If you unbanned Bazzar the difference between Vintage Ichorid and Legacy Ichorid is now nothing.

1. Do you really want a Vintage deck in Legacy?
2. So what if it's answered, Your wasteland works AFTER I have dredged 20 cards into my bin turn 2.
3. If you don't have Wasteland, it's gg. Basically it would be on of those cards people would have to run massive amounts of hate for.

Remember, Vintage has the speed to just race Ichorid, or has the speed to drop something turn 1 that stops them (3sphere, SoR, Mana Drain, Tendrils, etc.)

[andrew77]

If you unbanned Bazzar the difference between Vintage Ichorid and Legacy Ichorid is now nothing.

1. Do you really want a Vintage deck in Legacy?
2. So what if it's answered, Your wasteland works AFTER I have dredged 20 cards into my bin turn 2.
3. If you don't have Wasteland, it's gg. Basically it would be on of those cards people would have to run massive amounts of hate for.

Remember, Vintage has the speed to just race Ichorid, or has the speed to drop something turn 1 that stops them (3sphere, SoR, Mana Drain, Tendrils, etc.)

Everyone would just need to be prepared for bazaar, which wouldn't be that hard. If you really think it would be broken compare it to goyf. Almost all decks need to be ready to face opposing goyfs. It would be nowhere near as broken as something like minds desire or even the flashulk nonsense of columbus.

[ansset]

Everyone would just need to be prepared for bazaar, which wouldn't be that hard. If you really think it would be broken compare it to goyf. Almost all decks need to be ready to face opposing goyfs. It would be nowhere near as broken as something like minds desire or even the flashulk nonsense of columbus.

This person is one of the better trolls I've seen. I almost fell for it.

Then I remembered that a normal creature that provides a four-turn clock with no shroud or evasion is entirely different from an uncounterable combo enabler that is a land.

[caiomarcos]

Everyone would just need to be prepared for bazaar, which wouldn't be that hard. If you really think it would be broken compare it to goyf. Almost all decks need to be ready to face opposing goyfs. It would be nowhere near as broken as something like minds desire or even the flashulk nonsense of columbus.

Lands =! creatures

OMG!!! RUN!!! FLASHULK!!!!!!!!!111

C'mon, you just compared this possible deck with probably the two most indecent combo decks of all time, just missed Jar...

[Surging Chaos]

Everyone would just need to be prepared for bazaar, which wouldn't be that hard. If you really think it would be broken compare it to goyf. Almost all decks need to be ready to face opposing goyfs. It would be nowhere near as broken as something like minds desire or even the flashulk nonsense of columbus.

I don't think Legacy would be fun when you are forced to play a huge amount of hate against Bazaar Ichorid.

Just test the deck out on MWS, and notice how much more powerful adding Bazaar to Ichorid becomes. It's an uncounterable draw outlet PLUS discard outlet.

Let's also not forget that LED is legal in Legacy unlike in Vintage.

Here's a first draft of a Dredge deck I would play if Bazaar was somehow unbanned:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field
4 LED
4 Serum Powder
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Unmask
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return

[sauce]

lets ban smokestack & lion's eye diamond as well then if we're going to ban goyf.

[TeenieBopper]

Jesus fucking Christ are some of you people dumb.

[color=#000000]
Brain on fire..

Must... lock.. thread...

Ok. Look. I'm only going to say this once. If you have any questions or rebuttals, keep them to yourself.

Oath Sucks. Ok? It's awful. Green is an awful color. Building a control deck around it doesn't make it any better. *see "Druids, Oath of" and "Psychatog" and "Junk, PT" (ok, so junk really isn't a control deck.. well, kinda) Come to think of it, building a combo deck around that color doesn't work too well either. *see "Aluren."

Know why suicide oath was winning in extended back two seasons ago? Extended does not have the following cards: Swords to plowshares, Force of Will. Believe it or not, those cards are powerful enough to be a constant presence in any metagame with the card pool they are legal in. In fact, you may play against those very cards in the next tournament you play in. Or you may even play them yourself. I need a /sarcasm tag really badly.

If you want to play the game where I name a combo, then you name one that stops it, then I name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. Benzo would be moderately playable with entomb. In fact, I would probably play it. I recieve unhealthy pleasure from reanimating fatties. However, if you check my whole existance-of-cards-that-would-slightly-affect-the-extended-metagame-if-they-were-legal arguement above, you will notice that sometimes a big ass fatty isn't that hard to deal with. Also, Tormod's crypt isn't avalable to play in extended. You know, those things you have because you didn't want to lose to Dragon (yet you did anyhow, didn't you?)

Please stop drawing conjecture from extended. It's different cardpools. Ok? We're still more like type 1 than extended. Another thing: The bannings of replenish, skullclamp, etc just because they were banned in extended. Not too bringht. They missed survival of the goddamn fittest. No worries though, it's not like anyone played those cards in old 1.5 anyhow.

This brings us full circle to Oath of Druids, and the fact that green sucks. I know an aggro deck can't handle a turn 2 fatty. Know what? That aggro deck is probably playing green. They weren't going to win anyhow.

Mind twist is a very swingy card. In the absence of good acceleration, it's not that great turn 1. However, turn 4, it empties your opponent's hand. That's pretty frickin' swingy. Of course, this depends on your matchup. I know you aren't playing mind twist in suicide. Why? Because I know you aren't playing suicide. You are a better magic player than that. So I know you didn't just compare mind twist to hymn to tourach. While hymn to tourach is actually more cost effective than a mind twist, Mind Twist happens to be infinately splashable for such a devistating effect.

Metalworker is fine. Metalworker in the current card pool is at just about the right power level for the format. After all, goblin lacky is still legal. Guess what, it's also an artifact and a creature.

I refuse to comment on the very specualtion that a "broken replenish" deck exists. I believe that to be an oxymoron. If by boken you mean "slow and disruptable" then.. nevermind.

In conclusion,

- Discussing B/R changes just make you look dumb. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. I might have a thousand or more mistakes in what I have written above. I most likely do not.

- I blame people who discuss B/R changes like they are smarter than R&D for the change and seperation of the lists. You may be smarter than R&D. That's ok, so is my toaster. Just don't do it. Ok? Don't.

- Green sucks.

[mujadaddy]

Jesus fucking Christ are some of you people dumb.

[COLOR="Magenta"]At least I know how to color tag.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think Progenitus put the last nail in the coffin for the "unban Oath" team.

I love you very much, Mike, but I think the five year old rant might be a bit dated at this point.

[munkie]

My guess:

Legacy

No Changes.

If I'm right what do I win?

On a related note I recently wrote an E-mail to Tom LaPille presenting arguments on why Mind Twist and Land Tax should be unbanned.
Quoted for extreme truth.

/Lock

[andrew77]

I know bazaar is broken. All I am saying is its not impossible to beat. It would just warp the format. In this sense it is similar to goyf. I wouldn't like to play in a format with bazaar, but I dislike the presence of goyf just as much. Just think about the impact banning of goyf would have and you should realize how dumb goyf is in the first place.

[jthanatos]

I know bazaar is broken. All I am saying is its not impossible to beat. It would just warp the format. In this sense it is similar to goyf. I wouldn't like to play in a format with bazaar, but I dislike the presence of goyf just as much. Just think about the impact banning of goyf would have and you should realize how dumb goyf is in the first place.

Because legacy decks didn't pack removal before goyf? The only card I can think of that has hose target goyf written on it is relic, and that card is still at least fair to good without goyf. The only warping of the format that goyf does is replacing lesser quality threats like werebear and dryad with Mr. Tarmo himself.

Bazaar, on the other hand, wins target game of Magical Cards before most decks can even say boo.

[andrew77]

Because legacy decks didn't pack removal before goyf? The only card I can think of that has hose target goyf written on it is relic, and that card is still at least fair to good without goyf. The only warping of the format that goyf does is replacing lesser quality threats like werebear and dryad with Mr. Tarmo himself.

Bazaar, on the other hand, wins target game of Magical Cards before most decks can even say boo.


Goyf gives thresh a positive matchup against goblins. This therefore means goblins won't run rampant. That means if goyf was banned the top 8 of the next legacy grand prix would be completely different than if it was legal. Banning LED, top or counterbalance would not impact the format nearly as deeply. The only way to have such a huge impact on the format would be unbanning something ridiculous such as bazaar, desire, or some other bomb on the banned list. Bazaar is one of the few that could actually be handled in legacy so all i'm saying is if wizards doesn't care about goyf warping the format why do they care about bazaar warping the format if it were unbanned?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The only warping of the format that goyf does is replacing lesser quality threats like any given creature with Mr. Tarmo himself.

FTFY.

[jthanatos]

I won't argue whether goyf should be banned or not, as that is already beaten to death, and both sides are very much entrenched. But to state that goyf is as broken as bazaar in the format is at the very least shows that a person is confused how this format works. It is repeatedly stated that decks would just have to adjust to this card, though it has yet to be discussed how this adjustment can be worked.

Goyf at the very least fell prey to cards that were already run. What does one do to combat bazaar? Also, saying that goyf is format warping because deck Z can't be run anymore is silly. If that was the case, I want krosan grip banned so I can run donate again.

[C.P.]

Goyf gives thresh a positive matchup against goblins. This therefore means goblins won't run rampant. That means if goyf was banned the top 8 of the next legacy grand prix would be completely different than if it was legal. Banning LED, top or counterbalance would not impact the format nearly as deeply. The only way to have such a huge impact on the format would be unbanning something ridiculous such as bazaar, desire, or some other bomb on the banned list. Bazaar is one of the few that could actually be handled in legacy so all i'm saying is if wizards doesn't care about goyf warping the format why do they care about bazaar warping the format if it were unbanned?

What you're arguing is since creatures are too broken, we should remove combat step(that does not invovle zillion zombies and Ichorids) from the format. Goyf may be bit too good of a creature, masking every other beater in the format, but removing combat step from the game is never an answer.

If bazzar was beater of same caliber as Goyf, I may agree. But the two are different card, and has different role.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure they're comparable. Bazaar goes in one or two decks; and any color has multiple options for zero mana that completely nuke those strategies, one of which takes place on turn zero, in addition to cards like Faerie Marcabre and Relic of Progenitus.

On the other hand, those decks would be stupid good without hate.

Tarmogoyf is fundamentally impossible to hate effectively; even Relic didn't have any real kind of impact on his popularity, and that was pretty much tailor made to kill the guy. He's also playable in pretty much any deck, including tribal. But he's not so swingy as Bazaar either.

The argument for Bazaar being banned is swinginess. The argument for banning Goyf is that it stifles diversity.

/shrug

[Joe_C]

Unban Skullclamp: seriously in this format, what would happen? Would anyone care to run a tournament where skullclamp is legal? See if it really is any good?

[pi4meterftw]

I won't argue whether goyf should be banned or not, as that is already beaten to death, and both sides are very much entrenched. But to state that goyf is as broken as bazaar in the format is at the very least shows that a person is confused how this format works. It is repeatedly stated that decks would just have to adjust to this card, though it has yet to be discussed how this adjustment can be worked.

Goyf at the very least fell prey to cards that were already run. What does one do to combat bazaar? Also, saying that goyf is format warping because deck Z can't be run anymore is silly. If that was the case, I want krosan grip banned so I can run donate again.

Haha good call, refer to the beginning of this thread where I pointed out everybody wants to run their kithkins deck. Seriously. Some stuff simply sucks. It's not like a bad thing if tarmogoyf redefines that stuff, unless it redefines it so radically that {stuff that sucks} becomes {everything}. But there's not only other decks in legacy, there's so many other decks that we had a goyfless tournament where nobody in the top 8 was playing the same list, and many lists didn't even make it to the top8. In fact, legacy is so diverse that it's impossible to bring hate for everybody in the sideboard, even running multifaceted cards such as burrenton forge-tender.

[Joe_C]

there are plenty of cards that are run normally that neuter bazaar. Pithing Needle, wasteland are the more common. Im not saying unban Bazaar(although as an ichorid player:please do) but it would be easily contained in this format.

[caiomarcos]

What wouldn't easily be contained?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Skullclamp is fundamentally a terrible card. When it comes down, generally one of two things will happen;


1) You'll crush the opponent with overwhelming card advantage.

2) You'll die to something faster than your Skullclamp deck that you couldn't really deal with.

It pretty much puts the seal on any hope of interactivity in a game, is the thing. No, it's not "broken" in the sense that it doesn't win that fast, and it sucks in combo, but it pretty much means that the game's about done one way or another, unless it's dealt with; and it was always far more effective to deal with Skullclamp by killing the person controlling it than to expend resources attacking a one mana artifact.


Also, it would make Mono-White Control busted. True story.


Mother fuckers probably think I'm joking.

[DragoFireheart]

The argument for Bazaar being banned is swinginess. The argument for banning Goyf is that it stifles diversity.

/shrug


That argument is a very poor one for Tarmogoyf. Should the same be said of Swords to Plowshares, since it's the best removal and easily splash able?

Tarmogoyf doesn't "stifle" the meta. If anything, it encourages decks to pick up their weight and have answers for creatures or combo out.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That argument is a very poor one for Tarmogoyf. Should the same be said of Swords to Plowshares, since it's the best removal and easily splash able?

Tarmogoyf doesn't "stifle" the meta. If anything, it encourages decks to pick up their weight and have answers for creatures or combo out.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13172

Read, like, the first page.

[Joe_C]

I would think unbanning Balance and Mind's Desire would be the most drastic moves. Balance would be something landstill would love

[andrew77]

That argument is a very poor one for Tarmogoyf. Should the same be said of Swords to Plowshares, since it's the best removal and easily splash able?

Tarmogoyf doesn't "stifle" the meta. If anything, it encourages decks to pick up their weight and have answers for creatures or combo out.

Swords doesn't win games all by itself. Goyf and bazaar can. My argument though is that both cards would warp the metagame. Just because goyf isn't as powerful as bazaar doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned. Goyf being legal impacts the format just as much if not more than legalizing bazaar would.

[andrew77]

I would think unbanning Balance and Mind's Desire would be the most drastic moves. Balance would be something landstill would love

I would love to see minds desire unbanned since I love combo decks, but it would be the dumbest thing ever. Storm decks would be unbeatable.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

unbanning Balance

Stop.

Balance is seriously the one ridiculously overpowered, no-fucking-shitting-busted-in-half, rape-your-face-and-leave-you-bleeding piece of cardboard ever to be printed in White. It's easily on the top ten most powerful cards ever printed, and probably the only control piece to make it on there. It deserved to be banned every bit as much as Land Tax does not.

[Joe_C]

Stop.

Balance is seriously the one ridiculously overpowered, no-fucking-shitting-busted-in-half, rape-your-face-and-leave-you-bleeding piece of cardboard ever to be printed in White. It's easily on the top ten most powerful cards ever printed, and probably the only control piece to make it on there. It deserved to be banned every bit as much as Land Tax does not.

I wasnt saying I approved of unbanning balance, I was stating that it would be a drastic move since the post after my origional one said "what would be uncontained"

[DragoFireheart]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13172

Read, like, the first page.

It shows a split between posters on 'The Source'.

Hardly evidence that the fugly NEEDS to go.

If anything, Goyf is a hidden blessing as it strengthens aggro and aggro/control decks against combo. Arguing that everyone using it so it must be "bad" for the format could be argued for any staple.

Force?
Fetchlands?
Dual-Lands?
Swords?
Thoughtseize?

[Maverick676]

The problem with goyf is not that it is played in everything, it is that goyf lets a control or aggro/control deck completely invalidate every creature an aggro deck plays (except tombstalker obviously) it would be much less of a problem if it didn't have that extra point of toughness.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It shows a split between posters on 'The Source'.

Hardly evidence that the fugly NEEDS to go.

If anything, Goyf is a hidden blessing as it strengthens aggro and aggro/control decks against combo. Arguing that everyone using it so it must be "bad" for the format could be argued for any staple.

Force?
Fetchlands?
Dual-Lands?
Swords?
Thoughtseize?

I wanted you to read the thread not because it showed that everyone agreed on banning Goyf (although most people thought it was unhealthy), but because it already repeats this argument like five hundred times. And I'm tired of repeating it. So go read it and pretend I'm typing this shit fresh or something.

[Arrowni]

Both unbanning Oath and Bazaar would be absurd.

Bazaar would bring Vintage Ichorid as a top contender, it would easily become the deck to beat, many sideboard slots would be dedicated to it and people would hate it. People hate Ichorid in Vintage already and you just don't want to maindeck pithing needle in every deck because of it. The card is unfair, expensive and would make Vintage and Legacy way too similar (there are about three cards that make Vintage being about more than random blue control/combos, bazaar is one of them).

And lets not start with how stupid it would be to unban Bazaar and NOT to unban WORLDGORGER DRAGON.

Oath just neuters creature strategies. We can actually play aggro in legacy, lets keep it that way.

[DragoFireheart]

And I'm tired of repeating it. So go read it and pretend I'm typing this shit fresh or something.


Ah, ignore my comment then.

[Arctic_Slicer]

Unban Skullclamp: seriously in this format, what would happen? Would anyone care to run a tournament where skullclamp is legal? See if it really is any good?

Combo elves would abuse the hell out of that card and likely establish itself as the premier combo deck in Legacy. Skullclamp powered combo elves is actually pretty decent in vintage and would be even nastier in Legacy. Seriously, Skullclamp is a ridiculously cheap and powerful card drawing engine that can be abused by all kinds of decks and likely force other decks to run more x/1s to make use of Skullclamp as was the case in days gone by.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Legacy is a very equal Format. I play Legacy twice a week, and there isn't just "one deck" that wins every time. My Predictions for the June 20th B/R changes:


Stop.

Balance is seriously the one ridiculously overpowered, no-fucking-shitting-busted-in-half, rape-your-face-and-leave-you-bleeding piece of cardboard ever to be printed in White. It's easily on the top ten most powerful cards ever printed, and probably the only control piece to make it on there. It deserved to be banned every bit as much as Land Tax does not.

Balance is a totally fair card. I'm suprised they havent unbanned it. Who cares that if I only have 1 land, and a Chrome Mox, and a balance in my hand, and they have 4 Tarmogoyfs, 3 Noble Hierarchs, and a Progenitus in play, It's not like its good in that situation.


Unban Skullclamp: seriously in this format, what would happen? Would anyone care to run a tournament where skullclamp is legal? See if it really is any good?

Skullclamp Will Definately be Unbanned. What advantage does drawing at least 2-4 cards a turn give you. Not to mention in almost any deck, such as goblins, merfolk, elves, even jank decks, Combo Clamp decks. Who really wants to play skullclamp anyways?

And what about Mishra's Workshop? Seriously, who would play that card, even if it was unbanned? Who plays artifacts in there deck that cost 3 anyways. I think this will be the first card they unbanned, I don't see it getting any play in Legacy.

I think Land Tax will stay banned. Getting 4 Basic Lands a turn is broken. Can you imagine the decks that will arise? They will definately Ban Seismic Assault. That would just make the Seismic Tax Deck Destroy the format. I have been testing RW Seismic Tax on MWS, and it is Unstoppable. I think will Land tax will be banned for a very long time.

And Dream Halls? I've been playing my Darksteel Kraken Deck also on MWS, and How broken is Removing the Polar Kraken to play Darksteel Colossus. I know, It's a sick deck, but I keep losing to Seismic Tax a lot. They need to keep Dream Halls Banned. Period.

I think the cards to look out for on the new banned list is:

Counterbalance
Tarmogoyf
Sensei's Diving Top
Progenitus
Lions Eye Diamond
Force Of Will
Stifle
AEther Vial
Goblin Matron
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Kor Haven (Broken)
Manabond
Pestermite (I always lose to this card!)
Jackal Pup

On a more serious Note. There will be no cards banned. Land Tax and Dream Halls, Maybe Hermit Druid (But Probably Not), and Maybe Mind Twist. And Even if those cards are un-banned, Land Tax just isnt as powerful as it used to be (except in Seismic Tax), Dream Halls is too slow to play in a good deck (unless You play Polar Kraken and Darsteel Colossus). Hermit Druid is good, but with Relic or Progenitus in almost every MB/SB, it isnt too broken of a card.

[DrJones]

Bad news, Sensei's Divining Top is going to be banned. This week's theme is "Top down", the B&R announcement falls also on this week, and it's not the first time they have done a Pun before the announcement. (Banding week anyone?)

Yep, that's the newest buzz from the people with no life on the MTG boards. I thought it was fun enough to mention it here.

[Dan Turner]

Bad news, Sensei's Divining Top is going to be banned. This week's theme is "Top down", the B&R announcement falls also on this week, and it's not the first time they have done a Pun before the announcement. (Banding week anyone?)

Yep, that's the newest buzz from the people with no life on the MTG boards. I thought it was fun enough to mention it here.


banning top doesn't really stop counterbalance not with all the other top deck manipulation in legacy so it is not a logical ban.

[Julian23]

The intention is not to stop counterbalance but to decrease its powerlevel which is accomplished by baning top. Brainstorm and the like is nothing compared to top+cb interaction.

[RoddyVR]

I hope they ban top.
It would make counterbalance about 3 times less usefull.
Right now countertop is akin to having "1:counter target spell".
Without top, even if you ran every brainstorm variant you could dig up, it would still be "1, use a card: counter target spell".
That is Gigantic difference.
Edit: but i doubt they actualy will, though this pun on "top down" thing gives me a glimmer of hope.

[Maveric78f]

Ban fetchlands.

Then top is crap, then brainstorm is crap, then tarmo is usally -1/-1, then counterbalance is crap, etc...

[The Grim Reaper]

Bad news, Sensei's Divining Top is going to be banned. This week's theme is "Top down", the B&R announcement falls also on this week, and it's not the first time they have done a Pun before the announcement. (Banding week anyone?)

Yep, that's the newest buzz from the people with no life on the MTG boards. I thought it was fun enough to mention it here.

I am also sick of how LONG Top takes to use. End of turn top. Draw a card, top. Tap top to draw card. Next turn, play top, use top. end of turn top.

They are known for doing clever little puns like that, so I wouldn't be too surprised if Top got the axe. Good riddance to that +3 cards in hand at all times card.

[mujadaddy]

Ban fetchlands.I support this message :cool:

[quicksilver]

I predict that scrying sheets will get banned and not tarmogyf, just so the DCI can piss off IBA.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

I predict that scrying sheets will get banned and not tarmogyf, just so the DCI can piss off IBA.

As if IBA's not already ready to pop these days.

[The Grim Reaper]

As if IBA's not already ready to pop these days.

Didn't he once destroy a table in order to attack someone? June 20th ban list: IBA. ;)

[Michael Keller]

I think you'll see Mind Twist back, and that's about it (well, for the first time anyways).

[quicksilver]

Didn't he once destroy a table in order to attack someone? June 20th ban list: IBA. ;)

More like the table destroyed him.

[rufus]

I predict Cavius will be removed from the banned list.

[etrigan]

I predict Cavius will be removed from the banned list.

While this is certainly incorrect, it's the one unbanning I would most like to see.

[Happy Gilmore]

I can almost guarantee that nothing will change in this B&R.

[The Grim Reaper]

I can almost guarantee that nothing will change in this B&R.

But that would be BORING.

If the only thing that happens is "Mind Twist is unbanned" I'm going to be... bored. Shake things up a little! You can always change them back next time. Like Gush in Vintage :)

[Julian23]

I can almost guarantee that nothing will change in this B&R.

In case this happens Wizards will really really have to give detailed explanation on each of the (at least) most disputed cards! They can't fob us off with a "Legacy: no changes". This would be as frustrating as can be. Wizards has to have an open ear for all its formats.

[mujadaddy]

In case this happens Wizards will really really have to give detailed explanation on each of the (at least) most disputed cards!They will say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Enjoy M10! Buy boosters!" ...with a straight face.

[workingdude]

Bad news, Sensei's Divining Top is going to be banned. This week's theme is "Top down", the B&R announcement falls also on this week, and it's not the first time they have done a Pun before the announcement. (Banding week anyone?)

Yep, that's the newest buzz from the people with no life on the MTG boards. I thought it was fun enough to mention it here.

Did they have a similar type of pun the week when top was banned from extended? Because it seems like they would save their wit for the formats they support the most, in this case extended > legacy.

[Van Phanel]

Bad news, Sensei's Divining Top is going to be banned.

Wait! What? Bad? News?

This about the best news since the banning of Flash. (And no I'm not saying they are degenerate on the same level).

Also I am aware that we can't be sure as of now.

[Maveric78f]

I just can't imagine what effect banning the fetches would have on the metagame:
- the manabases would be a lot weaker
- brainstorm would suck
- top would suck
- stifle would suck
- counterbalance/top combo would not be degenerate at all
- life from the loam would also be weakened a lot
- moon effects would be a much more reliable lock
- waste lock would be awesome

Above all the fetchless metagame would be to build almost from scratch, because most cantrips would become useless, which would lower the power level of chalice, which would lower the power level of chalice stompy decks. But at the same time, chalice stompy decks are maybe the only decks that are not directly affected by the fetchland disparition. Well, there is TES too, and chalice is house against TES.

Well, well, very complicated...

[The Grim Reaper]

I just can't imagine what effect banning the fetches would have on the metagame:
- the manabases would be a lot weaker
- brainstorm would suck
- top would suck
- stifle would suck
- counterbalance/top combo would not be degenerate at all
- life from the loam would also be weakened a lot
- moon effects would be a much more reliable lock
- waste lock would be awesome

Above all the fetchless metagame would be to build almost from scratch, because most cantrips would become useless, which would lower the power level of chalice, which would lower the power level of chalice stompy decks. But at the same time, chalice stompy decks are maybe the only decks that are not directly affected by the fetchland disparition. Well, there is TES too, and chalice is house against TES.

Well, well, very complicated...

They're not going to ban fetchlands, people. It doesn't make sense. Its like banning the original dual lands because they are too good. I realize the shuffle affects are sometimes powerful, but that is not a good reason to ban a card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Banning fetchlands is an interesting thought experiment, but one of the least likely options. Especially when they're already leaving Extended, it would piss quite a number of people off.

Come to think of it, without Fetchlands I don't know why Top would remain banned in Extended.

[Van Phanel]

Come to think of it, without Fetchlands I don't know why Top would remain banned in Extended.

True story.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Which increases the odds that they'll ban Top in Legacy. Even though Goyf would be the more sensible target. Frowntown.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I guess I'd be in the minority,then, since I'd be very sad to see Top go.

[Maveric78f]

I've never that the banning of fetches was likely. But fetches are more powerful than duals in legacy. No doubt about this. Fetchlands and ancient tomb are what define legacy the best IMHO.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's hard to say that. Fetches wouldn't see nearly as much play without Duals; they'd probably be inferior to pain and filter lands. Duals, on the other hand, would see play regardless. Certainly fetchlands, in combination with duals, allow a staggering ease of color splashing, however, even while often making it easier to fight non-basic hate like Blood Moon and Wasteland, and improving the power of cards like Top, Brainstorm, and Tarmogoyf.

[JeroenC]

Which increases the odds that they'll ban Top in Legacy. Even though Goyf would be the more sensible target. Frowntown.

I hope they don't do this. For one, it's a card that's necessary for some very cool archetypes. Too bad it enables CounterTop.
But also because I'd hate to lose my internet argument with some guy over MTGS.:rolleyes:


I've never that the banning of fetches was likely. But fetches are more powerful than duals in legacy. No doubt about this. Fetchlands and ancient tomb are what define legacy the best IMHO.
I really don't believe Ancient Tomb defines Legacy. It might define a certain part of Legacy (the Ancient Tomb decks) but defining cards are more like fetch, FoW and Tendrils or something. Each of those cards would cause a major upheaval if removed from the format. Imho.

[eq.firemind]

HEY, Please Leave Top Alone!

I don't like playing blue. I often feel boooring playing against blue. Blue is the best color in format.

But.
Blue-based (aggro-)control holds Storm combo in check. IMHO it would be nice to ban something that powers up both Storm and Blue. The only card that meets criteria is Brainstorm. I don't say Brainstorm is OP or unfair, I just feel it happen to be too good with all interactions it opens.

Without Brainstorm, all that Counterbalances will lose significant amount of power and that nice card quality from Top will still be available to all nonblue decks that need it so much. Looks very fair to me...

Oh, and Brainstorm is as format-defying (or even more) card as Tarmo, fetches, duals, Force and other staples.

[Maveric78f]

I really don't believe Ancient Tomb defines Legacy. It might define a certain part of Legacy (the Ancient Tomb decks) but defining cards are more like fetch, FoW and Tendrils or something. Each of those cards would cause a major upheaval if removed from the format. Imho.
There is 75% of the field that plays 6+ fetches. In the remaining, 25%, I can imagine that 15% at least plays 4*ancient tomb (to my mind, only ichorid, burn and TES are not playing neither one nor the other). I cited Ancient Tomb as a complement to fetchlands.

[rufus]

There is 75% of the field that plays 6+ fetches. In the remaining, 25%, I can imagine that 15% at least plays 4*ancient tomb (to my mind, only ichorid, burn and TES are not playing neither one nor the other). I cited Ancient Tomb as a complement to fetchlands.

Mono-color Merfolk and Goblin tribal also plays neither.

[Tacosnape]

First off, I'm the archconservative when it comes to the B&R list. And given that the format's incredibly healthy right now, I'll be surprised if there are any changes whatsoever. Why fix what isn't broken?

And I'll be even more surprised if anything gets banned at all. But I agree that if any single one card in Legacy should go, it's Top.

That said, Legacy's a faster format than Extended. The time and mana you spend doing a couple top activations in Legacy is time your opponent can be creating an irrecoverable game state. I don't think it needs to go. But I wouldn't be overly sad if it did.


In case this happens Wizards will really really have to give detailed explanation on each of the (at least) most disputed cards! They can't fob us off with a "Legacy: no changes". This would be as frustrating as can be. Wizards has to have an open ear for all its formats.

Wizards doesn't have to explain anything. And Wizards has an open ear. You know the phrase they keep reading here and there? "The format is healthy."

Everyone has a couple of personal changes they would make to the B&R list. Big deal. Nobody gets up in arms every time there's no changes because the end result of "No Changes," is that the format's still healthy. And it is. Just because your pet card isn't unbanned or your most hated card isn't banned doesn't mean the general populace thinks Legacy sucks.

I for one am fine with seeing no changes.

[Maveric78f]

10% of the field? Ok, that's more. Anyway, you got my point?

[FredMaster]

Why fix what isn't broken?

They did it once, they can do it again.
Well not to a single format, but to the entire game.

[Maveric78f]

I'm not sure everybody agrees that it ain't broken. I personnally don't fully agree. Imho, blue is too much played currently. Banning top would weaken blue in first place, as far as I can see, in addition of what has been said previously (destroys countertop combo and prevents players from stalling).

[Tacosnape]

I'm not sure everybody agrees that it ain't broken. I personnally don't fully agree. Imho, blue is too much played currently. Banning top would weaken blue in first place, as far as I can see, in addition of what has been said previously (destroys countertop combo and prevents players from stalling).

Not everybody agrees, no. But a lot of players do. There isn't a huge uproar for any single one thing like there was for Flash right now.

Banning Top seems a little much to me, as it would take Counterbalance out of the format and we'd all be swimming in Storm Combo for eternity, and I'd rather play against Countertop all day than Storm Combo all day.

That said, if they ban Top, my secret Oblivion Crown deck works a lot better, so whatever.:cool:

[DrJones]

You can't use as a valid argument that <insert broken blue enabler card> cannot be banned because otherwise the format would be all storm combo decks, because first and foremost, nobody plays those storm combo decks, and second, because blue players still have <insert broken blue enabler card>, <insert broken blue enabler card>, <insert broken blue enabler card>, <insert broken blue enabler card>, and <insert broken blue enabler card> to fight back.

It's a non-sequitur.

[Guevera59]

The reason no one plays storm is because everyone play Countertop... If top is banned, or CB, then there would be a major meta shift towards storm combo. Especially with that new Orim's Chant, Storm can easily deal with "<insert broken blue enabler card>" . What they can't handle is Countertop.

[Zach Tartell]

I think the standard defense of this statement is: Explain Canadian thresh, then.

[jimmerz213]

To second Zachs reply, what about Zoo?

[Tacosnape]

I think the standard defense of this statement is: Explain Canadian thresh, then.

It's like Threshold, only more Canadian.

[DrJones]

It's like Threshold, only more Canadian.But is it "Threshold" anymore?

[Julian23]

Does UW Fish still run Merfolk?

[Jak]

But is it "Threshold" anymore?

Yes... it runs Nimble Mongoose.

[Tacosnape]

But is it "Threshold" anymore?

If Americans run it, is it even Canadian anymore?

I mean, if it's not Canadian and it's not Thresh, then we should just call the deck .

[mujadaddy]

If Americans run it, is it even Canadian anymore?

I mean, if it's not Canadian and it's not Thresh, then we should just call the deck .El Thresho Norte Americano?

[Surging Chaos]

Why does it feel like these last few days I have a bigger and bigger feeling that the Top is going to get banned? I can almost vision the article explaining its banning in a nutshell:

"The Top has shown that just like in Extended, it fuels an unacceptable level of consistency in card selection when combined with Onslaught fetchlands and other shuffle effects that any deck can use. It has also proven to create a format defining soft lock with Counterbalance in addition to the fact that the consistent activation of Top and Fetchlands bogs down the games to take too much time. These effects, while not degenerate by themselves, cumulate together to create a problem that has festered in Legacy just like it had in Extended."

And no, it's not because of the "Top-Down" week lmao.

[Race War]

I suspect some new bannings to go along with the new rules. Joven's Ferrets seems most likely - it becomes unstoppable under the new combat system. Maybe they will alter the format and create a Legacy restricted list. Then I can still play one copy of Ferrets.

[Anusien]

Why do you think Top would get banned this cycle when it did not last cycle. Nothing changed.

Just in case, Don't Ban Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37579.0).

[TeenieBopper]

They did it once, they can do it again.
Well not to a single format, but to the entire game.

They did it to an entire format once too. See 2004.

[mujadaddy]

How about this:

Legacy: Games will now be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches.

[Nihil Credo]

How about this:

Legacy: Games will now be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches.

So, let me get this: each game will be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches, each of which will be decided by the best 2 out of 3 games, each of which will be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches, each of which will be decided by the best 2 out of 3 games, each of which will be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches, each of which will be decided by the best 2 out of 3 games, each of which will be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches, each of which will be decided by the best 2 out of 3 games, each of which will be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches, each of which will be decided by the best 2 out of 3 games, each of which will be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches, each of which will be decided by the best 2 out of 3 games, each of which will be decided by the best 3 out of 5 matches, each of which will be decided by the best 2 out of 3 games, each of which...

I think this might be a problem.

[mujadaddy]

So, let me get this:

I think this might be a problem.
Not what I meant, but I like this better.

[Dan Turner]

Standard, Extended, Legacy, Shards of Alara Block Constructed
No changes



i guess we should realize by now that wizards don't give a crap about the middle child.

[mercenarybdu]

Still no new changes.

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/43d

They're not playing hard enough.

[whienot]

At least vintage gets a little shake.

Vintage
Thirst for Knowledge is restricted

Crop Rotation is no longer restricted
Enlightened Tutor is no longer restricted
Entomb is no longer restricted
Grim Monolith is no longer restricted

Shops keep getting better.

[mercenarybdu]

At least vintage gets a little shake.

Vintage
Thirst for Knowledge is restricted

Crop Rotation is no longer restricted
Enlightened Tutor is no longer restricted
Entomb is no longer restricted
Grim Monolith is no longer restricted

Shops keep getting better.

True.

Makes the drawing cards less intensive than when the Thirst was unrestrained (in an artifi heavy format).

[Bardo]

Since the update is out, go here instead:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13999