Countermagic and Legacy: Do we want it?

[DragoFireheart]

If you take a look at the other formats like Standard, you'll notice that a great deal of the better counter-spells are more expensive and sometimes "clunky" or slow. It's easier to predict when someone will have counter magic open and can allow you to play around them (compared to Legacy, where unless your opponent doesn't have a had or doesn't play blue, you never truly know if they have a counter spell or not).

It's because of this that I think counter magic isn't quite as potent in the other non-eternal formats. In Legacy and Vintage, most of the "tier 1" decks run Force of Will and some other counter spells, like Daze or Mana Drain. Whether this is good or not I will not assume as I do not play a large amount of Standard or Extended. However, no one is going to deny that counter magic is far more powerful in the two Eternal formats.

Which brings me to my question: what everyone think about counter magic in Legacy? What kinds of strategy does it add? Is the format be better off without some of the more potent counter spells like Force? Would the removal of powerful counter spells like Force be an improvement to the format to promote growth of other non-blue, non-counter heavy decks?

Is our format too dependent on counter-magic to balance out other decks (combo) that, left unchecked, would basically cause everyone to run those few decks?

[Piceli89]

If you take a look at the other formats like Standard, you'll notice that a great deal of the better counter-spells are more expensive and sometimes "clunky" or slow. It's easier to predict when someone will have counter magic open and can allow you to play around them (compared to Legacy, where unless your opponent doesn't have a had or doesn't play blue, you never truly know if they have a counter spell or not).

It's because of this that I think counter magic isn't quite as potent in the other non-eternal formats. In Legacy and Vintage, most of the "tier 1" decks run Force of Will and some other counter spells, like Daze or Mana Drain. Whether this is good or not I will not assume as I do not play a large amount of Standard or Extended. However, no one is going to deny that counter magic is far more powerful in the two Eternal formats.

Which brings me to my question: what everyone think about counter magic in Legacy? What kinds of strategy does it add? Is the format be better off without some of the more potent counter spells like Force? Would the removal of powerful counter spells like Force be an improvement to the format to promote growth of other non-blue, non-counter heavy decks?

Is our format too dependent on counter-magic to balance out other decks (combo) that, left unchecked, would basically cause everyone to run those few decks?

The removal of Counters in Legacy, well.. would create another format, it wouldn't be even worth no more to be called Legacy. Nothing else to be said.
As long as you're playing in an eternal format, keep in mind that it will be defined by Force of Will, Daze, and such.

[rockout]

Without the fear of force most combo decks would just go for the win no matter what with little to stop them.

[DragoFireheart]

Without the fear of force most combo decks would just go for the win no matter what with little to stop them.

I agree with this 100%. However, is it good for the format to depend on counter magic to stop combo?

I've seen a few Vintage deck lists and almost 90% of them have: power nine, FoW, brainstorm and then their little combo.

I just don't want to see Legacy end up on the same path as Vintage is.

[Arsenal]

I agree with this 100%. However, is it good for the format to depend on counter magic to stop combo?

I've seen a few Vintage deck lists and almost 90% of them have: power nine, FoW, brainstorm and then their little combo.

I just don't want to see Legacy end up on the same path as Vintage is.

Non-blue decks have adequate tools to fight combo; CotV, 3Sphere, Pyrostatic Pillar, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc.

True, these non-blue tools require the player to actually have a turn, but it's not like combo players have a god-hand everytime they're on the play.

[Carabas]

Legacy doesn't have the ridiculous combo engines that vintage has, such as Timetwister, Yawgmoth's Will, or Tinker. Because of this, combo is slower and less reliable, so aggro has a chance. When creatures are relevant, card slots have to be dedicated to dealing with them, even if it's just adding some goyfs to use as blockers.

Besides, what combo are legacy FOW decks going to use? We don't have Time Vault or Oath of Druids, and our storm engines are weak enough that they require a lot of slots dedicated to the combo. If people start playing Painter's Servant, we can always go and put 1-2 gaea's blessing in our sideboard.

[DragoFireheart]

Non-blue decks have adequate tools to fight combo; CotV, 3Sphere, Pyrostatic Pillar, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc.

True, these non-blue tools require the player to actually have a turn, but it's not like combo players have a god-hand everytime they're on the play.

Exactly. They are proactive, and they can answer combo, but you need mana and luck in hopes that your opponent doesn't just Goldfish on the draw.

How would you feel if they went first on game 1, won, you win game two, and then they goldfish again on game 3? With Force, they can't do this 100% on game one or two, but without it it's a very real possibility. Hell, I know some players joke about Vintage being "a coin flip" on who wins each game. It's not 100% true, but there IS some truth to this.

[Arsenal]

Exactly. They are proactive, and they can answer combo, but you need mana and luck in hopes that your opponent doesn't just Goldfish on the draw.

How would you feel if they went first on game 1, won, you win game two, and then they goldfish again on game 3? With Force, they can't do this 100% on game one or two, but without it it's a very real possibility. Hell, I know some players joke about Vintage being "a coin flip" on who wins each game. It's not 100% true, but there IS some truth to this.

If the combo player was able to assemble a turn 1 win in Game 1 AND Game 3 of the same match, then that's incredibly lucky on his part. I mean, really lucky. Shit like that does happen though in Magic.

[DragoFireheart]

If the combo player was able to assemble a turn 1 win in Game 1 AND Game 3 of the same match, then that's incredibly lucky on his part. I mean, really lucky. Shit like that does happen though in Magic.

I agree that it does require a degree of luck. But is it good that have that possibility? Would it be better to have combo toned further, some of the more potent counter spells removed so that other decks may grow and develop? There is a reason that half of the DTB on this site run Force of Will with other counters: counters can answer most any threat.

[mujadaddy]

Is our format too dependent on counter-magic to balance out other decks (combo) that, left unchecked, would basically cause everyone to run those few decks?No, not even if you add "free" before "counter-magic"...

We just finished a tournament here (Goyfless) and Stax and Goblins played off for the win, not MUC & Ad-Tendrils.

I think everything is pretty darned balanced. Oh, and sometimes who's on the play *is* what decides games.
There is a reason that half of the DTB on this site run Force of Will"...it's basically free" is what you meant to say.

[Soldar]

Well, consider the current builds of TES, or even Belcher.

Now take out all the protection and build it for speed (Well, most of the time Belcher has pretty minimal mainboard protection), and you've got decks that can goldfish a turn 1 win a measurable amount of time. Yeah, it's not incredibly consistent, but you've got something that will win some matches entirely by the die roll, regardless of what your opponent is playing.

That sounds pretty miserable to me. I don't even own a set of Force of Wills myself (Aggro Loam, GoyfSligh, and Zoo mostly), but as much as I dislike having a Devastating Dreams Forced, I'd much rather play against that than play against a combo deck tuned to not let me have a turn if it goes first.

Forcing (no pun intended) combo to interact with its opponent before knowing it can execute its combo safely is something that keeps this format balanced.

[DragoFireheart]

"...it's basically free" is what you meant to say.

Yeah, basically. :laugh:

Force being free is quite relevant. Daze as well, but it needs a land out so it isn't the same.

But you understand what I am getting at, right?

[mujadaddy]

You understand what I am getting at, right?Sure, but I think you're coming to the wrong conclusion.

Counters are the whole reason to put :u: in your deck at all.

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. Are you saying that what ought to be done is "remove the cheap counters and remove combo"? That's wildly over-reactive.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. Are you saying that what ought to be done is "remove the cheap counters and remove combo"? That's wildly over-reactive.

Not quite. I wonder if this is good for the format if we are trying to develop other decks.

[lordofthepit]

I do play blue decks, but they aren't my favorite style. But to remove even Force of Will alone from the format, let alone all countermagic, would be ridiculous.

Imagine if ANT could completely remove Duress and Chants from their maindeck and focus on a goldfish. They could probably kill on turn 1 frequently, and they wouldn't necessarily have to kill on turn 1 either.

[DragoFireheart]

I do play blue decks, but they aren't my favorite style. But to remove even Force of Will alone from the format, let alone all countermagic, would be ridiculous.

Imagine if ANT could completely remove Duress and Chants from their maindeck and focus on a goldfish. They could probably kill on turn 1 frequently, and they wouldn't necessarily have to kill on turn 1 either.

That's my point. The format seems TOO dependent on counter magic to keep combo in check.

Imagine if the format dropped Force but also dropped some of the crazy combo related cards like LED or Bridges. Would it make the format more enjoyable not having to worry about turn-1 kills without Force?

[from Cairo]

Considering half the DTBs or "Tier 1" decks don't run Blue I'd take that as evidence that free counter magic and combo do not stifle the "development of other decks".

[mujadaddy]

Not quite. I wonder if this is good for the format if we are trying to develop other decks.Better than Vintage.

Legacy has a very nice "rock-paper-scissors" setup right now with Aggro, Control, and Combo. Build a decent deck, and you can beat anybody if the cards fall right. In Goyfless, I went 1-2 in all my losses with a deck that isn't setting the format on fire, but the point is that I got wins over at least 1 top8 opponent.

Do I hate having to wait for players to Combo-Out? Sure. Do I hate seeing Top-'Balance-Goyf in some variation by turn 3? Sure. Do I hate how easy a good hand makes the game for the Goblins player? Sure.

But that doesn't stop me from innovating, and from sculpting something out of 75 cards that suits my playstyle.

[Soldar]

Imagine if the format dropped Force but also dropped some of the crazy combo related cards like LED or Bridges. Would it make the format more enjoyable not having to worry about turn-1 kills without Force?

That seems a little excessive, as far as what would be on a banned list, and that brings into question as to where the line would be drawn. What would this list look like for banning? I'd imagine it'd start like this:

Countermagic to be banned:

Force of Will
Daze
Foil?
Thwart?

Combo pieces to be banned:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Bridge from Below?
Lotus Petal?
Chrome Mox?
Mox Diamond?

That seems like quite a bit - even as just a start.

[Arsenal]

Legacy has a very nice "rock-paper-scissors" setup right now with Aggro, Control, and Combo.

I agree. The format is fine the way it is and banning Force of Will wouldn't make it any healthier,

[mujadaddy]

I agree. The format is fine the way it is and banning Force of Will and a bunch of other shit wouldn't make it any healthier,Fixed :wink:

[ebbitten]

BAN LACKEY!!!!!!!!11111111!!!!

These types of discussions seem to cycle in and out. If someone were to ask me cards that kept the format healthy and promoted diversity FoW would probably be close to the top followed by Vial, Lackey and maybe some stuff like Dark Confident. Cards that force the opponent to interact with you.

[Captain_Morgan]

To be honest, I destest combo more than I detest counters. There are enough ways around counters, you either outpaced those decks or built strategies like rebels that left their spells totally worthless.

Combo? It's all speed without the luxury of a counter strategy. I guess you could have a Battle of Wits deck against Brain Freeze decks, but other than that what defense do you have without FoW and a few other staples to keep combo down? FoW and friends keep combo in check without waltzing over decks, it would make red very powerful. However, even then not all can outpace a good combo hand.

The format is healthy enough right now that tribal can exist alongside combo in harmony with controller decks. The rest I believe is building new quality cards to make certain deck types viable, other than that there's really nothing much else necessary to be changed.

Unless if you want a Fifth Edition+ format.

[mercenarybdu]

Leave it alone. It is there to keep the format in check and balance.

[Jak]

I do think Blue is a bit overplayed, but the format is healthy. All decks are represented. Aggro, Control, Combo, Aggro-Control, etc are all represented in most Top 8s. This is amazing.

[pi4meterftw]

This is what the motive behind this thread is:

Dear wizards:

I quit because I can't play my darksteel collosus combo, where I play two and swing for 22 with trample.



There's already enough decks in the format that if asked just to list the tier 1 and tier 2 decks, I would undoubtedly forget some. Possibilities don't have to be infinite for a format to be healthy.

[FoolofaTook]

The threat of counter magic is valuable. Having it dominate the format the way it currently does is not. They need to find a way to tone down blue without crippling it. Brainstorm is about the only answer I can think of, given that Force of Will and Brainstorm are the only cards that all great blue decks have in common and the threat of Force of Will seems to be necessary to keep other things in check.

[Mayk0l]

Unlike Vintage, wherein the sheer power of cards like Timetwister, Mana Drain and Yawgmoth's Will warps the format into using these powerful cards, Countermagic in Legacy is simply a strategy that thwarts the Combopart of the Rock-Paper-Scissors situation mujadaddy pointed out. It does not invalidate other strategies but rather makes other strategies possible.

Sure, we need blue and counters to keep combo in check. But by playing blue, and playing counters, we're allowing aggro to Vial in their creatures to stomp control. That makes the whole format fun in my opinion.

So, yes, I think you're right. Legacy's health is partly dependent on Countermagic.

[DrJones]

I think the problem with countermagic is a problem of attitude. There are many decks that are discovered and proven competitive, but then appears a doofu that claims that they got a superior version by totally butchering the deck and adding islands, four Force of Will and four brainstorm minimum; and everytime I see that happens, it looks like an abomination. It's like throwing the recipe of a dish and replace it with fast-food and claiming their 'dish' tastes better because it has addictive salt in it.

Personally, I don't think that Force of Will is required at all to keep the format healthy, in fact, I think it has the opposite effect. Combo isn't inherently more evil than control, but a control-ridden format is seen as healthy, while if the best deck is combo the format is unhealthy, and if aggro, then is "undeveloped"!!! That attitude is bad, bad, bad. Health means that the basic strategies all have the same opportunities, and this require that their tools have to be balanced, too.

But people seem think that broken control pieces shouldn't be banned, only broken combo and aggro cards like Tarmogoyf should go. Tarmogoyf is bannable because it makes control too powerful, but combo decks destroying their original structure to pack 4xForce of Will in order to become "deck-to-beat" is not format warping.

However, I'm pretty sure that WotC won't ban Force of Will, because they acknowledge that certain cards are too powerful, but enjoy the kind of environment they create. They did the same thing with Necropotence; it was the obvious thing to ban, and they banned everything except it, until they had no choice but let it go. Right now, they have restricted everything except Force of Will in Vintage.

I hope that in a distant future, serious deckbuilding will not mean "add the default blue cards to the combo of choice".

[FoolofaTook]

I think the problem with countermagic is a problem of attitude. There are many decks that are discovered and proven competitive, but then appears a doofu that claims that they got a superior version by totally butchering the deck and adding islands, four Force of Will and four brainstorm minimum; and everytime I see that happens, it looks like an abomination. It's like throwing the recipe of a dish and replace it with fast-food and claiming their 'dish' tastes better because it has addictive salt in it.

The problem with Counter Magic is that in the right hands it will turn into a win, all luck being equal, more often than any other archetype. It takes the right deck to make this happen, but if you give a good pilot a good control deck the odds are very much in their favor. This doesn't mean that a combo or aggro deck can't get a nuts draw against even a very good pilot and kill him, because this happens also, but all things being equal the control deck is going to win more often. For reference here I will use Dreadstill and several of the players who play it regularly and the results they achieve. I'll use Canadian (Tempo) Threshold and several of the players who play it regularly and the results they achieve. I'll use Ugw Threshold of a year or two ago and several of the players who played it regularly and the results they achieved.


Personally, I don't think that Force of Will is required at all to keep the format healthy, in fact, I think it has the opposite effect. Combo isn't inherently more evil than control, but a control-ridden format is seen as healthy, while if the best deck is combo the format is unhealthy, and if aggro, then is "undeveloped"!!! That attitude is bad, bad, bad. Health means that the basic strategies all have the same opportunities, and this require that their tools have to be balanced, too.

Counters at some level are required to keep the format healthy. The question is how you enable counters without making them a healthy step up on "I Win!"


But people seem think that broken control pieces shouldn't be banned, only broken combo and aggro cards like Tarmogoyf should go. Tarmogoyf is bannable because it makes control too powerful, but combo decks destroying their original structure to pack 4xForce of Will in order to become "deck-to-beat" is not format warping.

For a truly healthy Legacy format you need to carefully balance power level such that blatantly broken cards aren't creating a dominant archetype that towers above all others. This should be a conservative effort but it should be done on a regular basis. There are two ways to do this, you can either make targeted removals against the decks that become dominant, taking the cards that cause the dominance, or you can print cards that explicitly confound them in order to create a more balanced meta. Of course cards that are just too powerful for the meta really should be removed when they are discovered.


However, I'm pretty sure that WotC won't ban Force of Will, because they acknowledge that certain cards are too powerful, but enjoy the kind of environment they create. They did the same thing with Necropotence; it was the obvious thing to ban, and they banned everything except it, until they had no choice but let it go. Right now, they have restricted everything except Force of Will in Vintage.

I hope that in a distant future, serious deckbuilding will not mean "add the default blue cards to the combo of choice".

Force of Will is not the primary problem in blue. It's a very powerful card and it can swing the game defensively and offensively, but once used (at a substantial cost) it often leaves the control player sitting and hoping his opponent does not now topdeck an answer in the next turn. Currently Force of Will is not used in combo much and so it does not power instant wins.

The problems in blue are Brainstorm and Counterbalance. Brainstorm because it creates insane card quality when it is used and because it allows blue to potentially go lighter on lands than most other archetypes creating a greater density of threats and responses. It creates the card quality in all blue decks and the density in those that choose to exploit that characteristic. Counterbalance is a problem because it turns the temporary gains that Force of Will creates into permanent gains. Brainstorm works brilliantly with Counterbalance also, both to find it and as a virtual counter spell in many situations.

They only need to print one card right now to make Force of Will very balanced:

Essence of Teeg
G/W G/W
Enchantment

Noncreature spells with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be played.
Noncreature spells with Variable Colorless in their mana costs can't be played.

That would do it, and would also handle Ad Nauseum and Tendrils of Agony fairly well.

[Finn]

Hey Drago, I take great pleasure in making my opponents play FoW on my schedule to force them into a position of card disadvantage. Unless you are under the gun from an uncontested Tarmo or something, I have no problem stranding Daze and/or making my opponent use a FoW on my spells when a more specific, but less versatile defense would be better for him.

FoW is at its best when nothing else will do. The further you go from that circumstance, the worse FoW gets compared to the actual right card for the job.

The prevalence of FoW makes a lot of other cards "fair" while at the same time not being especially good against the entire field. And Daze sucks past a certain point.

Very necessary. Very healthy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm going to actually try to address the original question on it's merits;

I do think it would be healthier if combo in the format looked more lik pre-Storm combo... you know, where they actually used a combination of cards to kill you, rather than a bunch of mana spells leading up to a big burn spell.

Dragon was an excellent deck in this respect; it lost to both resolved Enchantment hate and creature hate, in addition to bounce and counters. Graveyard hate was also pretty good, although it didn't have that remove-your-board-from-the-game factor.

At the same time, with Bazaar it was fast and resilient enough to be a top deck.

I wouldn't unban Bazaar because that's retarded, but unbanning Worlgorger Dragon and Entomb, and Hermit Druid and Earthcraft and other more permanent-based cards, would help balance the format's colors a bit, I think.

So would banning Tendrils of Agony or Lion's Eye Diamond.

Primarily, however, blue is dominant because of Tarmogoyf and the effectiveness of Counterbalance-Top.

Banning Force of Will is a bad idea because you're attacking a symptom of blue dominance rather than the cause; and if you did so, either Blue would remain on top through CB and Daze and Stifle, or more likely, Tendrils-combo would be rampant.

If you want to ban anything to fix the color dispersion in the format, it should be Tarmogoyf and/or Tendrils or possibly LED. I've actually been pushing LED, but now that I think about it Tendrils if the fundamental problem, and has been since it was printed. Tendrils of Agony completely changed the way combo was played, and not for the better, I think. Which is ironic, because Storm was supposed to be an anti-counter mechanic, yet the only decks that can really stop it effectively rely on counters to do so. And sometimes Orim's Chant or Thoughtseize, although those are less reliable.

My $0.02

[DrJones]

I think you might want to read this Tom's LaPille article (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/32) about recent vintage bannings. Maybe you can find enlightening that he depicts the meta as "dark ritual decks" and "force of will decks", because as the article states, is Force of Will the card that shapes these decks. R&D doesn't agree with your claims of it being just a tool that happens to be in the most played color, but the main reason the color is so played. They allow it to exists ONLY because they find these decks interesting, much like they see interesting broken storm combo!! They don't ban tendrils nor Dark Ritual because strong combo is needed for the format in their eyes, and it might perfectly be because otherwise they would have to ban FoW.

Also, you know, there are other decks besides blue that have to face Tendrils, and all them pack combo hate, and they do fine with it! It's just that they have to play a first turn and/or use enough slots for early game countermeasures. Force of Will+Brainstorm totally bypass that, so much that they don't need to change their deck a bit to protect against fast combo, it already comes with the pack!

Moreover, locks like countertop might be fairer if you only had to wait for one disruption spell instead of two because of the Force of Will backup. Other countermagic also protects it, of course, but only Force of Will+brainstorm allows it to enter play so early. And saying countertop is the same as saying anything broken that Force of Will decks can play so soon because they don't have to worry about disruption: Tarmogoyf, combo pieces or whatever. In that sense, Force of Will doubles the time other decks require to be able to fight back (need two answers), and halves the time the Force of Will deck need to start their game (don't need mana open nor a decoy for their opponent disruption). It doesn't matter that after using it you are in a bad position card-wise, because you have broken your opponent by just casting it.

In addition, I don't agree that banning it would make tendrils unstoppable, there are still a lot of zero and one-mana counters on blue's arsenal that stops it, they aren't as prevalent right now simply because there's no need. And blue can still use artifacts and other color's defense mechanisms against tendrils. In fact, FoW is probably hindering right now the printing of cards in other colors that might provide defense against storm, because it's overplayed and it's so good against it (and against the rest of the field).

I still don't think it will be banned, but it's not because it doesn't deserve the banhammer. Probably they will take away brainstorm or top, more likely the last one because it protects itself like recurring nightmare did.

[4eak]

I recognize that Force of Will modifies the choices that are made before the game (archetype choice, how you build your deck, and metagame predictions), but it also makes actual gameplay itself more interesting and rewarding to skilled players.

Force of Will promotes interaction in the format, which is part of maximizing the number of choices available during a game. Choice is the medium by which skill is tested, and choice is therefore the basis of competition/gaming. Force of Will's enhancement of non-trivial interaction increases skill caps (the point at which an increase in player skill stops translating into game winning benefits), both enabling diversity of strategy and creating greater depth to the format. Force of Will promotes competitive gaming.




peace,
4eak

[THEchubbymuffin]

Unban Land Tax.

Counters are good, but only if they come in the form other than a 2cc enchantment.

[donaldB]

Unban Land Tax.

Counters are good, but only if they come in the form other than a 2cc enchantment.

What's wrong with hesitation?

[jthanatos]

I think you might want to read this Tom's LaPille article (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/32) about recent vintage bannings. Maybe you can find enlightening that he depicts the meta as "dark ritual decks" and "force of will decks", because as the article states, is Force of Will the card that shapes these decks. R&D doesn't agree with your claims of it being just a tool that happens to be in the most played color, but the main reason the color is so played.


Just so we all remember, other than both formats having some very old cards run, legacy is not vintage. Vintage is a format driven by a majority decks filled with piles of enablers, acceleration, and a win con. Yes, there are some aggro exceptions, but most of the decks move very fast, and force allows the other side of the equation some interaction beyond shaking hands and rolling dice.

Legacy, on the far removed other hand, has a much slower game speed most of the time. Force forces interaction (please forgive the pun), but it does not ruin peoples days like it can in vintage. Forcing an early goyf is no where near as game changing as forcing an early Tezzerat.

[FoolofaTook]

If 4 of the 5 decks with a [DTB] tag had Dark Ritual included would anybody be arguing much against Dark Ritual as a ban target? If the majority of [DTB] decks historically had revolved around Dark Ritual and Tendrils of Agony would anybody be arguing that those spells were necessary for the health of the format?

Blue dominates, as it has done for 15 years now, due to the fact that card advantage/selection and the ability to say no at crucial times in a game promotes a consistent ability to integrate powerful win cons into a hard control shell and then inevitability takes over.

Banning Tarmogoyf would just promote a new addition to the standard blue counter suite in Arcane Denial, as Lorescale Coatl became the new thing that killed inevitably in combination with Counterbalance, Brainstorm and Force of Will. People would die just as surely to the Coatl build as they did to the Goyf build. With Sower of Temptation added to the roster of creatures Counterbalance can even counter 4cc spells now and then, which was basically the one real hole in the system previously.

If WotC is serious about creating some form of balance in the color wheel they'll ban a few cards that make blue powerful and accept the fact that the alternative is to ban a large number of splashable win cons otherwise and never print anything else that blue could possibly take as a win con.

This is like the Flash argument all over again. People who wanted to ban Protean Hulk thought that he was what was broken in the combo. People who wanted to ban Flash recognized that *something* would always be broken or threatening to become so as long as Flash was in the format.

Banning Tarmogoyf isn't quite the same thing, but there are probably a half dozen cards in the meta right now that would replace goyf as a blue shell killer if he was suddenly pulled out of the mix. Goyf isn't the killer, the blue shell is.

[AngryTroll]

Banning Tarmogoyf would just promote a new addition to the standard blue counter suite in Arcane Denial, as Lorescale Coatl became the new thing that killed inevitably in combination with Counterbalance, Brainstorm and Force of Will.

This is like the Flash argument all over again. People who wanted to ban Protean Hulk thought that he was what was broken in the combo. People who wanted to ban Flash recognized that *something* would always be broken or threatening to become so as long as Flash was in the format.



Lol at the second comment. The card "Flash" wasn't broken. Sure, Flash into Sundering Titan is pretty savage...but not broken. It was Flash + Protean Hulk. One of the two needed to go. If Hulk had been banned, but not Flash, Flash wouldn't be played right now.


Also, lol. Arcane Denial is terrible, Coatl or no.



I think what it comes down to is that I think a midgame aggro/coptrol deck like Thresh, Meathooks, or NLU is a HEALTHY best deck for the format. I don't see a need to ban a bunch of cards to knock Thresh off of the pedestal as the Best Legacy Deck.

If the best Legacy deck was TES or ANT, then I might want to shake things up, because these decks aren't very interactive. Thresh is all about interactions-counter their stuff, Swords their creatures, beat them to death. Sure, they're super efficient, but both players get to play spells. Can you imagine a tournament where a third or half of the players were playing storm combo? There might be some Thoughtseizes and Orim's Chants floating around, but the format would be decks that beat Storm, and Storm. Storm mirrors would involve the mirror, and a well timed Thoughtseize or Chant.

On the other hand, Aggro/Control mirrors are interesting to play. Aggrocontrol versus combo is interesting. Thresh and friends force interaction between the players, and that's healthy.

Sure, I'd be happier if the dominant deck was Survival or Aggro Loam, but I think Thresh is one of the healthier decks to be the Top Dog in the format.



Combo isn't inherently more evil than control, but a control-ridden format is seen as healthy, while if the best deck is combo the format is unhealthy, and if aggro, then is "undeveloped"!!! That attitude is bad, bad, bad. Health means that the basic strategies all have the same opportunities, and this require that their tools have to be balanced, too.


Control matches are all about interaction. Combo matches against other combo decks and aggro decks are all about Goldfishes. Control decks are a lot more interactive than combo decks; and that is healthy. The more interactions players make, the more difference playskill can make. If you're Steve Menendian, playing Soldiers against TES, all the playskill in the world isn't going to save you. If you're playing Zoo, it'll be closer, but a good TES player will steamroll a great aggro player. On the other hand, if you're Steve Menendian playing control against an aggro player, and the match is 60/40 in his favor, by golly, playskill can make all the difference.

That's why Control is seen as more healthy than combo. Extra opportunities for interaction between the players, and more chances for playskill to make a difference, makes a control-defined metagame more interesting than a combo-defined metagame.

[rockSTAR]

I don't know buddy... banning counters from a format is like telling a basketball team not to play defense anymore. Free points for the attacking team... everytime. It's just stupid.

[jazzykat]

If you take away FOW and Daze I PROMISE you that combo will run rampant. The issue with non counter combo hate is that you have to have to stick it. You can't bluff it and your opponent clearly knows what they need to do to win, i.e. oh you didn't mull into a CoTV I guess you lose on my second turn then...

[DrJones]

Control matches are all about interaction.That's a blatant lie. I've had more interaction against TES, long.dec, ichorid and dragon that playing against pure control decks like Stasis, Trinisphere, Oath, Stax, Nether Void, Forbiddian, countertop, scepterchant, and even mana denial decks packing Wasteland + Crucible of Worlds.

In addition, games against combo decks were more intense, faster, and a whole lot more fun than against those decks, and you know why? Because all these control decks were all about preventing me for ever casting a spell! And even though they didn't always manage to do that, their intent was always far, far away of "promoting interaction".

Control decks have a reason to exist, but it's not because they promote interaction, unless by interaction you mean "you can't do anything against this card because I have this other card that says you only get to watch". That's not interacting, it's just the opposite, you are not allowing me to interact. Counterspells not always work that way, but they do it from time to time, and in cases like Counterbalance, it's almost always used that way!

So, I think that it's not crazy to ban certain control cards that have been proven many times to be too powerful, And it's sad that they had to use price tag as an excuse to ban Mana Drain instead of simply saying that the card was freaking retarded and broken beyond repair, and shouldn't have been printed in the first place.

[Dembones]

What's up with all the crying about combo and counterspells all of a sudden?

Play discard, or aggro-control yourself.

Not everybody likes to dump a horde of little green men onto the table and repeatedly attack. Some folks like to play a big nasty dude, and protect it as it smashes your face.

This all sounds like "I can't play the deck I want to play in my meta-game, ban stuff."

Take advantage of your meta. If you're tired of people playing combo or control, hate it out. Warp it to the point that you can play what you want to play for awhile. But banning stuff like force of will and tendrils of agony is absurd.

[DragoFireheart]

What's up with all the crying about combo and counterspells all of a sudden?


There isn't any crying going on at all. If you had read the original post more carefully, you would have seen this.

[Finn]

Welcome to The Source, Dembones. This is called a conversation. People typically express opinions in them. Some of those are bound to conflict with your own.


Banning Tarmogoyf isn't quite the same thing, but there are probably a half dozen cards in the meta right now that would replace goyf as a blue shell killer if he was suddenly pulled out of the mix. Goyf isn't the killer, the blue shell is.Boy do I disagree with this. (see what I mean?)

[Dembones]

Welcome to The Source, Dembones. This is called a conversation. People typically express opinions in them. Some of those are bound to conflict with your own.

Boy do I disagree with this. (see what I mean?)

Thanks for the warm welcome.
Two threads talking about the banning of combo/fow in the same week kind of struck me as odd. I suppose this is all coming up because of what month it is.

[Flame removed. Verbal warning. Careful. - Bardo]

Take care!

[DrJones]

It's just that we have a B&R update this month, and we were talking in another thread about which cards are the most overpowered in the format. I posted a link about DCI's stance about FoW and Dark Ritual, which seems to prove that they want to keep them both as format-defining cards and are therefore not in danger, but maybe their support cards might get the axe this time.

Now, I personally think that FoW is overpowered and should be banned, because I have a hard time accepting that blue as a color is deep enough to allow for over two dozens of radically different blue decks making half of legacy top 8s, when the other four colors combined are much, much less represented, and not thinking that FoW hasn't anything to do with it, even though it's the only card all these decks have in common.

But it seems that I'm just a whiner and a loser that wants to destroy Magic because my decks lose to that card, and that combo will run rampant because WotC will not just ban FoW, but also all other cards that, if left unbanned, could stop combo without being broken by themselves.

But that's just my opinion. A opinion that is supported by historical data about past and present perfomance on tournaments, and R&D's data about "Force of Will decks being much, much better than the other archtypes", but an opinion nonetheless. :-)

[Dembones]

It's just that we have a B&R update this month, and we were talking in another thread about which cards are the most overpowered in the format. I posted a link about DCI's stance about FoW and Dark Ritual, which seems to prove that they want to keep them both as format-defining cards and are therefore not in danger, but maybe their support cards might get the axe this time.

Now, I personally think that FoW is overpowered and should be banned, because I have a hard time accepting that blue as a color is deep enough to allow for over two dozens of radically different blue decks making half of legacy top 8s, when the other four colors combined are much, much less represented, and not thinking that FoW hasn't anything to do with it, even though it's the only card all these decks have in common.

But it seems that I'm just a whiner and a loser that wants to destroy Magic because my decks lose to that card, and that combo will run rampant because WotC will not just ban FoW, but also all other cards that, if left unbanned, could stop combo without being broken by themselves.

But that's just my opinion. A opinion that is supported by historical data about past and present perfomance on tournaments, and R&D's data about "Force of Will decks being much, much better than the other archtypes", but an opinion nonetheless. :-)


FoW isn't something you can just "splash" into a deck. You have to have enough cards to throw away to it, while other cards, such as the Goyf, you can literally throw in some tropical islands and boom, you have a win con. (Not that I'm advocating the banning of anything.)

[Mantis]

You really threw yourself into a snakepit so I admire your courage for that. But as much as throwing onself into a snakes pit is a bad idea, banning countermagic is too. When I just started playing Vintage years and years back, I hated FoW. When I finally got to a point where I had all my conditions met to play my wacky combo they would always have FoW. Over the time I came to like FoW as a card that keeps the format together. I actually think FoW is fairly priced, 2 buisiness cards and a life for 1 buisiness card + mana isn't all that degenerate. Key to beating FoW is keeping the mana you spent on your buisiness card as low as possible thus keeping the tempogap as small as possible. This is the reason why Goblins and Merfolk can so adequately attack FoW, their buisiness spell costs 1 or 2 (Vial, Lackey, Standstill, Lord of Atlantis).

In Vintage we say; FoW is the glue that holds the format together and I think this is true for Legacy as well. It keeps Combo and Goblins in check.

[DrJones]

In Vintage we say; FoW is the glue that holds the format together and I think this is true for Legacy as well. It keeps Combo and Goblins in check.That's funny, I thought that what made Goblins playable is that they play 8 1-mana cards that make counterspells useless.

[Mantis]

It's an out to Vial and Lackey, so it's a double edged sword I guess.

[FoolofaTook]

If you take away FOW and Daze I PROMISE you that combo will run rampant. The issue with non counter combo hate is that you have to have to stick it. You can't bluff it and your opponent clearly knows what they need to do to win, i.e. oh you didn't mull into a CoTV I guess you lose on my second turn then...

This is most assuredly not true. if you banned Force of Will and Daze a lot of things that are thoroughly suppressed at the moment, like Landkill and non-red Chalice Aggro would get off the mat and come up swinging, and combo would hate facing those. Nothing like a Dark Ritual for Trinisphere to make Storm combo go home for the day.

Blue control does a better job of suppressing Ice Storm, Stone Rain and Sinkhole than it does of stopping Storm combo.

[Nihil Credo]

This is most assuredly not true. if you banned Force of Will and Daze a lot of things that are thoroughly suppressed at the moment, like Landkill and non-red Chalice Aggro would get off the mat and come up swinging, and combo would hate facing those. Nothing like a Dark Ritual for Trinisphere to make Storm combo go home for the day.

'Kay. SI/Belcher vs. any "Landkill" list of your choice: 90% for the Storm deck is my estimate, more if the Storm player is actually good.

Aside from that, I'm not sure why you think that SixteenSinkholes.dec would ever be viable in a format with fetchlands (and Vial and Moxes and Lackey etc.), or that "non-red Chalice Aggro" is being suppressed by FoW/Daze.

[Fuzzy]

...Aside from that, I'm not sure why you think that SixteenSinkholes.dec would ever be viable in a format with fetchlands (and Vial and Moxes and Lackey etc.)...

Team America? FoaT was talking about "Ice Storm, Stone Rain and Sinkhole". ~NC

[FoolofaTook]

'Kay. SI/Belcher vs. any "Landkill" list of your choice: 90% for the Storm deck is my estimate, more if the Storm player is actually good.

Aside from that, I'm not sure why you think that SixteenSinkholes.dec would ever be viable in a format with fetchlands (and Vial and Moxes and Lackey etc.), or that "non-red Chalice Aggro" is being suppressed by FoW/Daze.

What's suppressive is not the 6 fetchlands that each multi-colored deck runs, and it's not Lackey, which is trivial for a dedicated mana suppression deck to deal with, it's the 8 potential free counters, 4 of which are guaranteed to work (Daze) AND the 6 fetch lands.

What we don't have in the format right now is turn 1 Encroach or Dark Ritual - Trinisphere/CotV, followed by turn 3 Sinkhole, Vindicate or other 3cc Landkill into a lock by turn 4. That's not because Zoo beats that because it runs even at best, or because Storm combo beats that, it's because blue control owns it. If you don't have a god draw you lose to the blue control deck 80%+ of the time because they have so many ways to evade the landkill. With Stifle they avoid the wastes.

So what you have is one archetype that does not just keep the format in check, it keeps many archetypes from even being explored effectively. It's a veto on creativity while being one of the most boring archetypes to play itself and one that is stultifyingly boring in the mirror.

And BTW, you're wrong on the combo matchup, which is highly favorable for effective mana suppression. The landkill is actually secondary to Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void in that matchup. By the time Storm draws the way to remove the suppressing artifact they can no longer cast it and will not be able to again in that game.

[Mordel]

With the exclusion of extreme cases of brokeness (flash or back in the day: original necro donate decks), formats with massive card pools have always seemed to keep themselves healthy and balanced by the sheer virtue of the creativity massive card pools allow. Neutering counter magic would fuck up the balance in a big way. Looking to standard and [a ruined] extended format is a stupid move because those formats change rapidly and are victims to the whims of the design team as far as how they want the game to be seen by new and prospective players. In other words: it is easy to remove the trappings of the past from the two money formats.

Removing the better permission cards from this format would be like exterminating an animal that is part of the medium level in a food chain: it would fuck everything up and things that were previously kept in check by its presence alone in some cases would run rampant(think hyenas eating lion cubs or something). I haven't played much storm combo, so I could be quite wrong here, but I think there are things that I fear more than FoW, like barages of discard. FoW in and of itself is pretty easy to deal with, when you consider chant and duress.

I don't see it ever happening, but if good counterspells were removed, there would be consequences besides combo being dominant(assuming other people are right in this assumption): some archetypes would be crippled while other mediocre ones would rise and a format that many people love for the complex array of points of strategy would have been made dumber. I'm a firm believer that money formats, while attractive because of the whole going pro thing and the constant flood of new shit are idiot/child formats. They're simple and extremely straightforward and part of that is because elements such as the permission-based control deck has been removed and everything has been put in black and white as far as clearly defined aggro, mid range or control goes. It's fucking sad. Extended is starting to follow that route too with the last few rotations that it has seen.

I am not a vintage player anymore, but I once was and back then, I saw the vintage format as a format that was all about using the cards on the restricted list to their full potential. Permission was/is a means to that end. Vintage may have changed in the last while, but when I see recent deck lists, it still looks like a fucked up(as in crazy, not good or bad...just crazy) format to me and that isn't because of the presence of countermagic, it is because the many of decks are composed of umpteen different broken interactions and redundant slots, like five tutors that get you exactly the card that you need for under three mana and such. You can get a second turn colossus or tendrils combo OR control the game with a bob and remora and all with the same deck. It's crazy.

When I see people asking whether a format like legacy or any format would be better off without permission, it makes me want to facepalm because removal of permission was the first step taken to ruining the money formats and turning them into what they are today. Permission is balanced by efficient discard and fast threats. The latter two elements were controlled by others and so on and so forth.

I'm finding myself going on in circles, so I'll leave it at this:
Removing permission from legacy without making a bunch of other huge sweeping changes would be like letting a blind retard with no thumbs remove three Jenga blocks from the bottom of the pile. A bad idea anyway, but also a disaster for anyone that had been enjoying the game up to that point.

[DrJones]

I want to point out that we are not suggesting taking away permission from the format, but broken cards that happen to be permission.

Specifically, banning Force of Will would still leave blue with the following ultracheap (can be played for 1 mana or less) counters to protect itself, all of them played in the past or in the current meta, so don't tell me they aren't good:
1. Annul
2. Cursecatcher
3. Misdirection
4. Pact of Negation
5. Spell Snare
6. Daze
7. Commandeer
8. Stifle
9. Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast
10. Foil
11. Circular Logic
12. Mindbreak Trap

Plus these others, which I'm unsure about their power but don't seem totally useless:
1. Disrupting Shoal (this one can be played for free)
2. Force Spike (good, but obsoleted by daze)
3. Disrupt
4. Envelop
5. Nyx
6. Thwart (this one can also be played for free)
7. Divert
8. Untapped island

And that's only cards for 1 mana or less, because there's too many good 2cc counters. Additionally, blue decks can still use Chalice of The Void, Pithing Needle and all the artifacts that other colors have to use as their only options.

Also, I'm coherent enough to say that any combo deck that cannot be stopped by one of the twenty aforementioned cards was clearly broken from the start and should be banned too (unless the deck is incredibly junky and loses to itself half the time, that is).

Finally, even though I don't think the change would cripple blue beyond repair, I don't give a damn if blue becomes the worst color in legacy, because frankly, there's always a worst color and I don't pick favorites, and ALL colors can fit the control role.

EDIT: To make things clear, I actually have wrote to Mark Rosewater and Aaron Forsythe in the past asking for a fairer replacement to Force of Will so that the card can finally be banned, so I'm not against blue's permission, but against broken cards.

[FoolofaTook]

Banning Brainstorm and Counterbalance would achieve more than banning Force of Will in terms of lowering blue power levels and would leave the threat of a turn 0 counter in the meta.

Banning Brainstorm over Force of Will would also adjust blue's power level without much hurting MUC, which clearly is not a dominant deck at the moment.

[eq.firemind]

:u:-based (aggro-)control >>> Storm-combo
Storm-combo >>> many-many decks
Top Aggro decks (today it's Zoo/Goyfsligh) has a descent chances against :u: and poor chances against Storm.

I hate to play against CB+Top+Force+Brainstorm, but...
Banhammer FoW will give a huge boost to Storm-combo, wich means typical aggro will be far less competitive. That's bad.
Banhammer Counterbalance will give an equal boost to aggro and Storm, but storm already beats typical aggro, so again, Storm will recieve better boost. Again, that's bad.
Banhammer Brainstorm will affect :u: AND Storm, so this can be fair.
Banhammer Top = Banhammer Counterbalance

There is one deck that I worried about: Ichorid.
Dredge >>> all, but fortunately hate >>> dredge, so it looks OK now. And as I can see, possible bans/unbans will not affect the situation.
But you should always keep Dedge in check...

[Mordel]

I want to point out that we are not suggesting taking away permission from the format, but broken cards that happen to be permission.

Specifically, banning Force of Will would still leave blue with the following ultracheap (can be played for 1 mana or less) counters to protect itself, all of them played in the past or in the current meta, so don't tell me they aren't good:
1. Annul
2. Cursecatcher
3. Misdirection
4. Pact of Negation
5. Spell Snare
6. Daze
7. Commandeer
8. Stifle
9. Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast
10. Foil
11. Circular Logic

Plus these others, which I'm unsure about their power but don't seem totally useless:
1. Disrupting Shoal (this one can be played for free)
2. Force Spike (good, but obsoleted by daze)
3. Disrupt
4. Envelop
5. Nyx
6. Thwart (this one can also be played for free)
7. Divert
8. Untapped island

And that's only cards for 1 mana or less, because there's too many good 2cc counters. Additionally, blue decks can still use Circle of The Void, Pithing Needle and all the artifacts that other colors have to use as their only options.

Also, I'm coherent enough to say that any combo deck that cannot be stopped by one of the twenty aforementioned cards was clearly broken from the start and should be banned too (unless the deck is incredibly junky and loses to itself half the time, that is).

Finally, even though I don't think the change would cripple blue beyond repair, I don't give a damn if blue becomes the worst color in legacy, because frankly, there's always a worst color and I don't pick favorites, and ALL colors can fit the control role.

EDIT: To make things clear, I actually have wrote to Mark Rosewater and Aaron Forsythe in the past asking for a fairer replacement to Force of Will so that the card can finally be banned, so I'm not against blue's permission, but against broken cards.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

hahahahahahahahahaha *coughs* hahahahaha

You're actually serious? You want 1.5 to be a shitty format for retards, like the money formats? If people don't like permission, gtfo of playing in eternal formats, step up yo' game or play discard, it's that simple.