Competitive Mill

[sdematt]

A few weeks back, there was some discussion about making mill competitive (or at least playable) in Legacy. As it so happens, Mind Funeral came into our possession, and joy was had. I've had a casual mill deck for years, which really only included Glimpse the Unthinkable and Panoptic Mirror, but with Alara Reborn we, the mill enthusiasts have been given Nemesis of Reason and Mind Funeral. I've started piecing some things together, and posted a list I had in another thread. The deck has gone away from the 70-card beast posted else ware, and has turned into the beast presented shortly.

As you may/may not be aware of, there are two ways to win in Magic: run the opponents out of cards, or put their life total to 0. The latter can be done via creatures, spells, storm combo, etc. This thread will focus on the former via non-storm combo. Is my list the one and only? No. Would I love to hear suggestions and possible decklists? Absolutely, but I must stress that this is for non-storm combo. After a long read, I present Mill, Version 3 as of May 30 2009:

Competitive Mill
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
1 Maze of Ith
2 Shelldock Isle
5 Island
3 Swamp

3 Nemesis of Reason
3 Fog Bank
3 Gilded Drake

4 Damnation
4 Force of Will
4 Mind Funeral
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Smother
4 Brainstorm
2 Traumatize
2 Haunting Echoes
2 Panoptic Mirror/Wipe Away

Possible Sideboard
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Chill
3 Veldaken Shackles
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate


I'll also try to enlighten you with my reasons for card choices:

Underground Sea: The deck needs blue and black, thus, auto-include
Polluted Delta: Fetches either black or blue lands that I require
Flooded Strand: The deck cried for another fetch, this one does so nicely.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: Helps with colour fixing, makes Maze, Shelldock, fetches, etc. tap for black.
Watery Grave: Just can't get enough dual lands that are on-colour.
Maze of Ith: when drawn, can allow a nice stall if the opponent is using a single, large threat, helps in the defense, which is what you're playing.
Shelldock Isle: Digs for four cards. This was Lim-Dul's Vault, but that wasn't working out. The last twenty cards are usually the hardest, and having a nice trick under this when the game comes to a close is always handy; taps for blue.
Island/Swamp: Basics to round out the lands/protect against Moon/Wasteland.
Nemesis of Reason: The MVP of creatures in this deck. Is a fantastic blocker, and usually comes down after a Damnation. Mills ten cards before blocking, so even one attack can put Shelldock online/puts more cards into the yard. He does cost 5, but in this deck, he is reusable mill.
Fog Bank: Trample does go over him, can be bolted, smothered, etc. but, he does nicely jump non-trampling fatties that flood legacy (mongoose, goyf, stalker, etc. Can really help the creature slowing process.
Gilded Drake: Usually played after a Fog Bank, it nicely steals something that you could use/block with. Was Sower, but this is much faster to come out. All in all, a nice card, and pitches to FoW.
Damnation: The deck doesn't play many creatures, and creatures are the main kill condition of legacy, I would think. This nicely buys you extra turns to mill/sweeps the board, and is a lovely surprise under Shelldock/Panoptic Mirror (who needs mill when you Wrath every turn?)
Force of Will: Protects a crucial backbreaker, or stops something that you can't deal with from coming into play.
Mind Funeral: My mainboard tech against two land belcher (har-har). In actuality, this card usually ends up milling for 10+ cards, and my personal record is 36 off of a Thresh deck (he wasn't laughing). This is the main mill spell of choice to be put under an Isle, as it will usually clear most of the final cards in their library.
Glimpse the unthinkable: The most efficient mill spell.
Smother: Did I mention this deck hates creatures? Kills Nacatl, Figure, Goyf, Confidant, etc.
Traumatize: Seems a little casual, but can be a great card if it lands. If not, it pitches. Usually when this comes down, it mills for 20, which may not seem great, but 20 is 20.
Haunting Echoes: Accelerates the mill process. Is really good when there are 15+ in the yard, which is easily done. It's a nice finisher when it gets right to the end of the library.
The extra slot: Panoptic Mirror/Wipe Away: I know Panoptic Mirror seems like a really casual dollar rare, but in this deck, it can be interesting. Any spell put on here (minus FoW) can really help you out. Favourite imprints include Damnation, Mind Funeral, and Traumatize. It is slow to get out, but you're slowing the game anyway. Wipe Away was my other choice, as more bounce is always good. Virtually uncounterable (what cb player leaves 3cc on top?) and returns another that is giving me the gears.

63 Cards? What?
Yes, the deck is 63 cards. I am a believer in the 63-card deck. I've always played decks of 63, as 3 extra doesn't greatly hurt your chances mathematically topdecking the win (the percentage is small), and allows me to run a 3-of that can really help me out. Does 60 cards improve my chances of lucksacking a win? Yes, numbers don't lie. Is it nice to have that extra tech in there for a tiny drawback? To me, it is. Perhaps to you it isn't. I could cut this deck down 60, but as of yet, it sits at 63.

I really want to know what you guys think. I would say give it a try on workstation. Is it the new Threshold? No. Is it super cool to win via milling an opponent? Oh dear sweet baby Jesus it is. I will try to update this with coll pictures and banners, if someone is willing to make this thread look beautiful!

Thanks, and comments are appreciated!

-Matt

[chokin]

I don't know how the hell you put Glimpse on Scepter (which is what I assume you did looking at your little intro).

This seems too slow to be labeled "competitive" to me. A lot of your spells cost 5...kinda makes any deck packing a lot of land disruption (Eva Green, Lands, Thrash, even Goblins, etc) a real bitch. Even being held off for a few turns of disruption is doing a ton for these decks.

I do like the concept of mill. I do however believe that you need to make it more like control with a mill main finish. You could probably do Ub CBTop Control and start work from there. I'd cut out Traumatize and Nemesis personally...to slow.

Although this may not be the greatest idea, Mystical Tutor has some synergy with this style of deck. A single blue mana gives you tutor to find your mill and/or gets you a specific CC on top. It allows you to run a wide variety of sideboard hate as well. Again, maybe not the best idea however.

EDIT: "As you may/may not be aware of, there are two ways to win in Magic: run the opponents out of cards, or put their life total to 0"
Door to Nothingness :P.

[rufus]

I'm not sure how well it works in practice, but Natural Balance / New Frontiers -> Mind Funeral is pretty funny.

There still aren't quite enough cards for 'deck burn' to work so well. Combo based mill like Solidarity or Painter Grindstone, or even Helm of Obedience/Lleyline of the Void seems to work better with one or two cards that completely wipe out the opponent's deck.

P.S. There are also card-based wins like Battle of Wits and poison counters.

[sdematt]

whoops, just a bit of a mistake there :D, was thinking Panoptic Mirror. I meant the two fundamental ways, but yeah, Door, Coalition victory, etc. can win you the game, yeah. Also, I know that Storm Combo mill/Painter's Servant is more effective, I'm just trying to work on one deck that isn't those mill those decks. Any other suggestions guys?

[Damnosus]

Is 4 counterspells really enough? I feel like there definitely should be more in a control deck, let alone one that is so vulnerable. Add in either 4 counterspell, or maybe 2 counterspell and 2 spell snare.

Also you need more control elements. Consider removing all the creatures (except for maybe 2 NoR) for things like propaganda, more counters, and vedalken shackles. If you really want to keep Fog Bank, consider splashing white for wall of denial instead. The should act like control in that it has only several win conditions, with lots of control elements. Worse comes to worse, you deck the person via stalling.

Also definitely consider 2 Jace beleran.

You have 63 cards, and although you mentioned that you are fine with that, it is the easiest thing in the world to get rid of 3 cards because there are so many "danger of cool things" cards in this deck, like traumatize, haunting echoes and panoptic mirror. Maybe stick with 2 of either traumatize or haunting echoes, or one of each?

Hope that gives you some ideas of where to take the deck.

[rufus]

whoops, just a bit of a mistake there :D, was thinking Panoptic Mirror. I meant the two fundamental ways, but yeah, Door, Coalition victory, etc. can win you the game, yeah. Also, I know that Storm Combo mill/Painter's Servant is more effective, I'm just trying to work on one deck that isn't those mill those decks. Any other suggestions guys?

You're going into casual and which is, of course, just fine, but this is the wrong place for that.

I'm guessing that you're looking for something non-conventional, so Solitary Confinement and stasis-lock are off the list. There's a bunch of ramp up/infinite combos which can easily use deck death finishes (Second Sunrise, Kiki-Jiki, Swans of Brynn Agol, Reveillark, High Tide, Cadaverous Bloom and so on.)

I'd guess that Forced Fruition is one of the stronger choices for 'deck burning'. There's also Shocker/Barbed Shocker/Dragon Mage/Magus of the Jar stuff. It might also be interesting in BR with Kederket Parasite, Underworld Dreams or Chains of Mephistopholes, and so on.

[sdematt]

I'm not trying to make it casual, I'm trying to improve it for Legacy actually :D
Before, it was casual (before Nemesis etc.), but now, I think it has potential. And har-har about why not just build another deck.

I actually used to splash white before for wall of denial, I just found that three colours made it much harder to run (more susceptible to land-screw), but it did work great. I'll rework it in. But yeah, I could cut it down to 60 although I'd be a tad saddened :D

The new list I've made up drops a bunch of filler for Counter-Balance-top, and it seems to be going pretty well.

[rufus]

In concept, playing a bunch of spells that wipe out the opponent's deck can be strong, and in strong colors (U/B). The problem is that there aren't really enough solid deck destroying spells available -- Glimpse, Mind Funeral, Brain Freeze and not much else. In practical terms you'd have to see 1/3 to 1/2 of the deck, and land all of the spells to make it stick. I think the concept needs 2 or 3 more good decking spells to really work. If you try to use draw and acceleration to mitigate that, you end up with storm combo, and control and tutor elements lead to painter/grindstone.

[keys]

I think the obvious problem with slow mill (as opposed to "fast mill" like solidarity and painter) is that graveyard based strategies make up such a large percentage of the format. Goyf? Mongoose? Lavamancer? Tombstalker? Loam? ICHORID?

So yes, the title of this thread is an oxymoron.

[tpnp]

I used to run Fog Bank as 4-of in my U/B Mill deck, but I found it sub-par. Typically it would either get Plowed or Burned out. In it's place I put Ensnaring Bridge and haven't looked back.

Also - Drift of Phantasms can provide protection or can be transmuted for:
Mind Funeral
Ensnaring Bridge
Infest - I run this as my sweeper of choice since I run Bridge to stop fatties
Propaganda

This ended up being my wife's deck to play and she enjoys it quite a lot. Once I get home, I can post the list if you'd like.

[Amber VII]

What a great idea! I love it!

I've had some success with Competitive Mill. However, this was in a standard environment and was more of a side event than tournament play. Here's what I can tell ya:

Nemesis of Reason: This card really needs vigilance. As is it's too win-more.

Gilded Drake: I'm not entirely sure what the interaction is here. Wipe Away? I think this slot could be replace with more countermagic or removal.

Traumatize: I never liked it. It's much to expensive to cast and the reward is not worth it if you run other mill cards. Try replacing this with Mesmeric Orb. It's a much better investment over the course of the game.

Panoptic Mirror: I don't think this card belongs. It's worse than Isochron Scepter and I don't think I would play Scepter in this deck.


This deck sure screams Propaganda. Between Maze of Ith and Fog Bank you have creature wall which forces your opponent tap out or not attack. The rest of tpnp's suggestions are solid as well.

[sdematt]

I don't think the title is an oxymoron.

I definitely appreciate the suggestions, and am reworking the deck as we speak. I will post a list on Friday.

[chokin]

So I decided to take a crack at a version of the deck. I ended up with this.

1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
3 Island

4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 SDT
4 Brainstorm
4 Smother
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives

SB
2 Hydroblast
2 BEB
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Extirpate

Mind Funeral was pretty awesome. I only did 3-4 games but it hit between 8 and 17 cards with an average of about 13. I don't think I like Mystical Tutor too much. It was nice to give a 3cc card on top, but that's about it. It basically gave me Mind Funerals. I never tutored for a Glimpse. I think the deck needs some serious work...I felt mana heavy some games and mana light other games. Also I think I want more removal or pack extra in the board.

White splash is an option I've considered. Better removal, makes EE better, strong potential beaters, and gives better options for SB tech. Also I'd like to add Spell Snare and possibly Shackles. Basically go for a NLU build with no green and mill wins. Not sure yet.

Feedback and ideas wanted and appreciated.

[Team-Hero]

You shouldn't run Daze if you have no pressure. Try Twincast. Opt to play no creatures in the deck and instead run Damnation and Innocent Blood. Run 1-2 copies of Yawgmoth's Agenda for the late game.

You can be daring and run a transformation sideboard of Raven Guild Master, Nemesis of Reason, and Scalpelexis since most opponents will side out all the creature hate against you.

I would also splash red for Wheel of Fate. If you get there, consider Shelldock Isle since your already running Brainstorms. Use the Shelldock ability to hide Szadek, Decree of Silence, Forced Fruitation, or Crumbling Sanctuary. Forced Fruitation really gets there if you can protect it with Remand or Counterspell.

[Skeggi]

Wouldn't reanimate be a possibility to improve this deck? Or at least other ways to abuse the large graveyard your opponent will have? Cards like Terravore come to mind...but that would require double green...but they're significantly better than a Fog Bank or Gilded Drake.

[NiRVeS]

I don't post often on these board (more of a voyeur, really), but here's some thoughts:

1) I don't think this concept is viable at the moment, the format is simply too fast if you ask me. I like rogue decks (and Mind Funeral) as much as anyone, but I doubt it this deck can have any success in competitive legacy.

2) Now that we have (1) out of the way, some suggestions for the deck.
* First, try Ghost Quarter. It's sort-of like Wasteland (well, not really) and it pulls lands from their deck => seems cool with Mind Funeral. Occasionally it will even serve as a full-on wasteland (hello Nassif.deck).
* Play some discard spells (Thoughtseize, Duress). They will buy you some time and let you save your FoW's for the most important targets.
* Put Extirpate in the main deck. Works great with discard and even better with Ghost Quarter/Mind Funeral. I would prefer these over Haunting Echoes and Traumatize.
* I think I'd rather play twincast than Panoptic Mirror. Twincast is more versatile and serves a similar function.
* You need some sort of carddrawing mechanism. Jace is nice, although I'm not sure whether you will be able to keep him alive. Thoughtseizes will help you achieve this though.

Anyway, hope some of these ideas prove to be useful.

Tom

[sdematt]

I'm liking these suggestions. Again, I'm not wanting it to be the next deck to beat, just something that can get in a tournament and do decently well. Tis a pet project of mine :D

I'm liking the creatureless main/creature sideboard, and/or splashing white. Keep the suggestions up, I'm liking it! I'll post tomorrow with a list...

Cheers!:cool:

Matt

[Team-Hero]

Put Extirpate in the main deck. Works great with discard and even better with Ghost Quarter/Mind Funeral.

Yes! This will tear through decks. Run a mock deck and see how much of a big difference it does. You don't have to live test this, just use statistics. Proxy up a deck like Standstill or U/G control and try it out.

Spash green for Veteran Explorer? He rips two lands out of the opponent's deck while boosting you as well. Mana ramp yourself to a big Nightmare Incursion - rip as many lands out of the deck as you can - next turn, Mind Funeral and Twincast. Unlogical but live the dream man... live it.

I think Legacy is the wrong format for this deck. Most of the good mill cards fit into Extended. I would consider playing this deck in Extended rather than Legacy.

[sdematt]

I'll try and build it for legacy, but we can also port it to Extended as well!

[Amber VII]

I agree with Team-Hero. What does Legacy give to competitive mill really? Gilded Drake? Fog Bank? Every deck already runs 4 Force of Will in Legacy.

You could port this deck to Extended and it would not lose a thing. In fact, it would gain a lot more just from the downgraded competition. And since the best mill cards are from Ravinca onwards, you could run this deck in Extended tournaments for years to come.

[Michael Keller]

Wouldn't it just be more consistent to run Painter's Servant-Grindstone? I understand what everyone is trying to do here, but seriously; it is the most potent game-winning mill engine in Magic's history. I don't know why you'd settle for anything less. Why spend your entire deck trying to mill a few cards when you can take two together (for a very cheap cost) and eliminate everything in one fell swoop?

[sdematt]

Why do we innovate? Why do we strive? Try? Experiment?

Partly, this is a pet project, but it is also just developing something bad into something not all that bad. Does PainterStone do it better? Yeah. Without innovation, and playing around with cards, we'd have the same decks at the top til the end of Magic. I see your point in that going to that would be easier and more effective, and from the way you said it, you understand my point of view of the developmental process.

[Michael Keller]

Why do we innovate? Why do we strive? Try? Experiment?

Partly, this is a pet project, but it is also just developing something bad into something not all that bad. Does PainterStone do it better? Yeah. Without innovation, and playing around with cards, we'd have the same decks at the top til the end of Magic. I see your point in that going to that would be easier and more effective, and from the way you said it, you understand my point of view of the developmental process.

I can see what you're saying, and the Timmy within wants to agree. Unfortunately, decks that rely on milling an opponent's library really don't succeed all that much because that's all they are busy doing. When an opponent does manage to establish a threat, decks like these don't have a whole lot of answers because it takes them so long to accomplish their goal.

If you want to try a deck that mills an opponent, why don't you toss Phyrexian Dreadnought in the mix with Vision Charm. Now you have definitely made maximum use out of the Charm by being able to phase out your Dreadnought when it comes into play, or you can mill the top 4 cards of an opponent's library all at the cost of one blue mana at instant speed.

[Damnosus]

That is actually a really cool idea. I totally forgot that vision charm did that as well.

I do think that propaganda is necessary for this deck, whether or not you play countertop.

[Michael Keller]

Well, here's the thing:

You're playing a "mill-deck", so you must know you're playing a very slow deck in nature. By playing against Goblins and fast aggro, you're asking for trouble. Now, with Dreadnought, you've basically swung the clock 180 degrees by putting a clock on your opponent; the one playing aggro.

Propaganda is good to an extent, but I'd stick it in the board. Your main issue is going to be decks like Goblins, Burn, fast aggro essentially. If you can race them by putting an obstacle in their way, and begin thinning their library, you just might have a chance. This is why people play Painter-Stone, because it is very effective and very fast. Propaganda is an obstacle, and it helps against Ichorid, so you can give it a try. Two in the main wouldn't hurt all that much.

Dreadnought makes this deck a touch better than it was before. But still, you should all focus on maintaining a balanced attack as well as defense. You also might want to consider Grindstone in the board against Painter decks. Simply board that in and drop it when an opponent plays Painter. You have no idea how pissed I was about a year ago when someone did that to me.

But hey, it's effective and it works. Decks with this strategy that win are rare, so no matter how good it gets, it will always be seen as lesser on the totem pole unless you take it to a large tournament and win with it. That's your goal: Aim to win.

[sdematt]

I have to admit, I very much enjoyed reading what you had to say. I'm not being sarcastic at all or anything, tbh. You made sense, and I liked what you had to say. You've definitely made me think, deeply even, and that is hard to do. I will most definitely ponder on your thoughts.

[Michael Keller]

Well that's good; good to hear. The important thing to realize is that this archetype isn't very good. If you want to make it better, advertise the cold, hard facts. If you place or win in a tournament, post it in the Top 4/8 forum. Remember: Advertise. That is the best way to make people believers.

[gamegeek2]

Painter+Grindstone=Competitive Mill. 'Nuff said. It really should be in the deck, but then again that brings a lot of baggage.

[rufus]

Thinking on this concept, cascade could push the number of available deck destruction spells a bit. The UB cascade spells are 4 cc (Karthari Remnant) and 5cc (Deny Reality). The closest 3cc options are Ardent Plea and Demonic Dread, either of which would require a splash.To make it work, the deck would have to play a bunch of cards with alternative casting costs, cyclers, and such. Fortunately blue and black have a lot of that available.

Off the cuff, something like this:

[Grinding Spells]
Brain Freeze
Glimpse The Unthinkable
Mind Funeral
Ardent Plea
Kathari Remnant

[Cyclers]
Street Wraith
Glassdust Hulk
Architects of Will

[Control Elements]
Force of Will
Shriekmaw
Unmask
Misdirection

[Fetch/Dual Lands]
...

Might have potential.

[sdematt]

If I can get the necessary pieces, I will be able to play in our area's monthly legacy tournament on June 23rd, in which I will be able to post results. The worlds is against me, but I like those odds. I don't know if anyone else plays Counter Strike Source, but it's that feeling of you being the last one alive against 5+ enemies, and you have to keep your wits about you to win. There's alot of ways this deck could go, but I'm glad that I'm getting the response am I. The archetype, is bad, but, with a few tweaks and creative ideas, I think I may be able to get a decent tournament report in 3 weeks' time.

[Moczoc]

If you really want to go the "I'm gonna burn your library" route, you have to use much for slots for the defense because there are not enough effecient mill spells so far.
Here is what I would play, it is slow but it's strong I think:

Creatures/Planeswalker
4 Wall of Denial
4 Jace Beleren

Spells
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mind Funeral
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 The Abyss
4 Thoughtseize
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Innocent Blood
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Duress

Lands
22 Lands

[B.C.]

Probably worth the necro for the new free mill card:

Archive Trap 3uu
Instant - Trap Rare
If an opponent searched his or her library this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Archive Trap's mana cost.
Target opponent puts the top thirteen cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Illus. Jason Felix #41/249

This deck may have just reached the critical mass of mill spells to be a fringe contender.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I think the obvious problem with slow mill (as opposed to "fast mill" like solidarity and painter) is that graveyard based strategies make up such a large percentage of the format. Goyf? Mongoose? Lavamancer? Tombstalker? Loam? ICHORID?

So yes, the title of this thread is an oxymoron.

Run Leyline Void/Helm of Obedience on top of this. Solves problem with that, and gives alt win cond. I think 4 Damnation is needed over shakles, gilded drakes, etc.

Literally, I think that would make the deck work.. I've run combo in MBC, it works (although inconsistent at times), but combined with your other mill would make the deck something more to be feared.


I think adding too much counter, disruption, etc. just slows the kill down, the way I only really see this deck working is just flat out racing your opponent with possibly 1-2 well timed sweeps. Anyways, I suggest helm/void combo it's gg, no painter, but it fits color scheme and also mills on its own when you're in bind.

@Trap
Good SB.

[DrJones]

That Archive Trap could work with Noble Benefactor, yeah!

[blacklotus3636]

Probably worth the necro for the new free mill card:

Archive Trap 3uu
Instant - Trap Rare
If an opponent searched his or her library this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Archive Trap's mana cost.
Target opponent puts the top thirteen cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Illus. Jason Felix #41/249

This deck may have just reached the critical mass of mill spells to be a fringe contender.

It looks ok but highly situational. Obviously its nice with the fetchlands but if the deck ever becomes a contender then people will be mindful of it. Besides, think about how many mill spells you need to realistically cast before you win. I think at this point you would probably need around 4-5 which is alot. I'm not sure if its helpful but when I think of mill spells I think of them as burn spells where my opponent loses one life every turn but my opponents life total is 2.5 times bigger so that means you divide the amount you mill by 2.5 . I find it to be a useful gauge to estimate how effective your mill spells are. In this case, glimse would be dealing 4 damage for 2 mana. Thats good and definately an auto include but not really game breaking and really its the best spell you have. Thats mostly why mill is not going to be competitive until you see a few more cards like glimpse.

[pointofinfo]

Regarding the situational argument about the new "1/4th of your library" mill spell, it might as well not be because every deck in the DTB uses extensive fetches, and now that there are enemy fetches, deck will have the potential to run an extra one or two searchers. It's situational in the same way that Hymn to Tourach is situational because your opponent has to have cards in their hand for it to be good. A.K.A., it is essentially not situational.

@Black Lotus, your argument is that people will be aware of the spell if the deck becomes competitive, but you also argue that it would take additional cards like Glimpse to make it competitive. So essentially, this card will be under the radar until you cast it the first time. Where it seems like you think the card's narrowness makes it disadvantageous, I think you are actually in pretty good shape casting it, especially given that you can cast this card for 0 and Twincast it simultaneously on turn 2 for about half your opponent's library. The other thing is that you can't play around this card with many decks like Zoo and CounterTop-Goyf that are reliant upon fetching at least once during the first 3 turns to set up their mana base.

I've had a fair amount of success playing mill in Extended recently. My list includes Sanity Griding, which you would probably shave for a Legacy list, Glimpse, Twincast (insane with Archive Trap), and Mind Funeral (better in Legacy than Extended). Glimpse and Mind Funeral both fit easily into the mana requirements of a Legacy mill.

[Media314r8]

Haunting echos is in the primer, but telemin performance doesn't get a mention? It insta-wins against combo and control, and mills 60/threats on average, which is about 3-6 against most of the DTBs that run creatures. It also functions as a control element against these decks, as you get either a chump blocker, essentially a time walk for you, or a tarmogoyf, which holds off their goyf indefinitely. IMO at least worth consideration for the SB.

[Temanaras]

So with the release of Zendikar we have a new mill spell, Archive Trap and more fetches, which archive trap loves to use. I am running UB and I have seen some white which does give you some advantages, Wall of Denial, Medaling mage, Path to exile to fuel archive trap. But I have never been a big fan of three colors in a deck where you are hard casting most of your spells. SO this is a new deck I have been toying with and doing well in the limited meta-game I see.


//Land//
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

//Creatures//
4 Hedron Crab

//Utility Spells//
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual

//Control//
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

//Mill//
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
4 Sadistic Sacrament

//SB//
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt

SB is weak, but I have the Thoughseize in there for goblins and the such. I don't main deck it because the 2 damage can be counterproductive due to the damage from Fetches and Watery Graves if you have have it come into play untapped and having to survive with only hedrons as protection.
Tormod's Crypt is for graveyard abuse, some like Relic of Pro better, but with the amount of mill in this, eating the whole GY is better in my opinion, especially for no mana.

So for the rest, from top to bottom:
Watery Grave/ Underground Sea - Fetchable on-color duals, what more can you ask for.

Misty/Delta/Tarn - Fetches that let you hunt for most of what you need, feed hedron, love it.

Hedron Crab- Great mill any time, all the fetches feed it nicely and its an 0/2 for 1 so you have a mildly decent defender.

Brainstorm- Its legacy, its blue, its dig. Also a good last ditch for counterbalance.

Duress- Eats a counter or something more devastating, and no life cost, already talked about sideboard.

Dark Ritual- Great for fueling Sadistic Sacrament early game, this is one of the weaker choices, but I feel still worth it.

CounterTop- lost of 1cc, a little 2cc, some 3cc, countertop is amazing lock.

Glimpse- Most efficient mill in the game, one of my favorite cards ever.

Mind Funeral- Amazing mill, has its weaknesses, with the prevalence of fetch and land hunt, people end up helping you.

Archive trap- Anti-tutor, early mill if people fetch first turn and you have it. Opening hand with 2 and they fetch can kill alot of decks.

Sadistic Sacrament- Eats combo something fierce, can first turn with a good hand.

Like I said, Side Board needs work, but I have been pretty lucky with this deck. But thats my 10 cents.

[Sevryn]

Have you tested extirpate maindeck?

[Vacrix]

So with the release of Zendikar we have a new mill spell, Archive Trap and more fetches, which archive trap loves to use. I am running UB and I have seen some white which does give you some advantages, Wall of Denial, Medaling mage, Path to exile to fuel archive trap. But I have never been a big fan of three colors in a deck where you are hard casting most of your spells. SO this is a new deck I have been toying with and doing well in the limited meta-game I see.


//Land//
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

//Creatures//
4 Hedron Crab

//Utility Spells//
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual

//Control//
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

//Mill//
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
4 Sadistic Sacrament

//SB//
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt

SB is weak, but I have the Thoughseize in there for goblins and the such. I don't main deck it because the 2 damage can be counterproductive due to the damage from Fetches and Watery Graves if you have have it come into play untapped and having to survive with only hedrons as protection.
Tormod's Crypt is for graveyard abuse, some like Relic of Pro better, but with the amount of mill in this, eating the whole GY is better in my opinion, especially for no mana.

So for the rest, from top to bottom:
Watery Grave/ Underground Sea - Fetchable on-color duals, what more can you ask for.

Misty/Delta/Tarn - Fetches that let you hunt for most of what you need, feed hedron, love it.

Hedron Crab- Great mill any time, all the fetches feed it nicely and its an 0/2 for 1 so you have a mildly decent defender.

Brainstorm- Its legacy, its blue, its dig. Also a good last ditch for counterbalance.

Duress- Eats a counter or something more devastating, and no life cost, already talked about sideboard.

Dark Ritual- Great for fueling Sadistic Sacrament early game, this is one of the weaker choices, but I feel still worth it.

CounterTop- lost of 1cc, a little 2cc, some 3cc, countertop is amazing lock.

Glimpse- Most efficient mill in the game, one of my favorite cards ever.

Mind Funeral- Amazing mill, has its weaknesses, with the prevalence of fetch and land hunt, people end up helping you.

Archive trap- Anti-tutor, early mill if people fetch first turn and you have it. Opening hand with 2 and they fetch can kill alot of decks.

Sadistic Sacrament- Eats combo something fierce, can first turn with a good hand.

Like I said, Side Board needs work, but I have been pretty lucky with this deck. But thats my 10 cents.

What is your clock? You can't take creatures off the board. Your combo matchup seems decent. You have just about as many mills spells as control or aggro control has counters. I think you need to be more mill focused. Dark Ritual and CB seems really out of place. It might be a nice SB strategy but MD it seems bad. In my testing with mill the decks I beat were when I played it like burn: win turn 4/5 before aggro kills you. You can fuck with ANT via Archive trap on their Top rearrangements, or mystical tutors, but you give them threshold for cabal ritual which is pretty significant.


Have you tested extirpate maindeck?

I have. It was tight as shit. 4 of for sure. I gets better if you throw in a little discard too (especially in game 2 against combo).

[Temanaras]

I don't see to much fast aggro in my meta, we kind of divide into the combo players and the kids, so the aggro is slow. I do see vial goblins occasionally and after first game i can keep it in control with a combination of having thoughtseize and keeping their lackeys and instigators in the GY. My roommate who plays with me is building Arma-stacks and thats a tough match up and i got 1:3 with him when we play tested.

[sdematt]

The original list is outdated as I've been working on other decks. Keep it in mind. There's nothing wrong with trying to develop an archetype.

[EssKay]

I love this idea, and I don't really know why. I think haunting echoes as the main win con seems doable. If you can get some combination of glimpse the unthinkable, tome scour, hedron crab, or archive trap out in the first 2-3 turns, you're looking at 15-20+ cards in their yard. Dark ritual out echoes on turn 3 or 4 and you're probably going to nail a large percentage of every popular deck in the format, especially the ones that just run 10 4-ofs. Supplement with FoW/Daze and you're in business.

I would love to run something like this, if nothing else just for kicks, but unfortunately I lack pretty much the entire list. If anyone starts playing it at the tournament level though, I'd be really interested in the results.