[The Source] Tournaments

[Dan Turner]

Ok I have the free time to run them if you want to play in them.

I am going to lay some ground rules down though.

1.)If you don't post during the whole week of the tournament and you opponent has tried to get a hold of you I will count it as a no show and give you the loss, the massive amount of draws during the [goyfless] messed it up pretty bad. If you post and I can see you are trying to play and its just a time zone thing then you can chose the ID.

2.) 7 Days per round-No extensions except in a case of a natural disaster. And only then if I think its necessary to the fairness of the round.



Ok so if you are interested post here and maybe if you have an idea for a format you would like. Such as the goyfless.

I don't know about prizes atm, maybe if all the participants wanted to pitch in Legacy staples or something to make a prize table with.



Ok so far the ones I like.

1.)Budget
2.)Ban Counterbalance
3.)Unban something

[Jak]

You should probably hold off until after the MTGSalvation tourney is done.

[Dan Turner]

I am just trying to see what the interest is if its worth putting the software on this computer

[Carabas]

There is a little interest. I, for example, would participate.

[Maveric78f]

As I missed the MTG salvation tourney for obscure reasons, I'm interested by this one.

As for the format, I propose (they are different propositions, not a single one):
- as white is supposedly the weakest color, I propose that basic plains can produce W, as they do in real rules, but also can produce 1W exclusively usable to play mono-white spells.
- where the cascade / bond of agony combo is legal (even if it's not a very interesting format)
- counterbalance-less format, since it's according to me the card with the biggest impact in legacy
- if a card would go into its controller's graveyard, instead remove that card from the game. It would be equivallent to both players start with Leyline of the Void into play. But some cards would become too strong (energy field for instance), so that there should be a banned list.
- inversely to last proposition, if a card would be RFG, instead put that card into its controller's graveyard. This format would probably be utterly broken with flashback or psychatog (needs a banned list too).

[Piceli89]

As I missed the MTG salvation tourney for obscure reasons, I'm interested by this one.

As for the format, I propose (they are different propositions, not a single one):
- as white is supposedly the weakest color, I propose that basic plains can produce W, as they do in real rules, but also can produce 1W exclusively usable to play mono-white spells.
- where the cascade / bond of agony combo is legal (even if it's not a very interesting format)
- counterbalance-less format, since it's according to me the card with the biggest impact in legacy
- if a card would go into its controller's graveyard, instead remove that card from the game. It would be equivallent to both players start with Leyline of the Void into play. But some cards would become too strong (energy field for instance), so that there should be a banned list.
- inversely to last proposition, if a card would be RFG, instead put that card into its controller's graveyard. This format would probably be utterly broken with flashback or psychatog (needs a banned list too).

The last point would mean Infinite combos which don't exist in normal game ( for example, double burning wish and IGG with enough mana in TES). Moreover, the absence of counterbalance would be another great help for combo, and the 4th point is to be read like "you can't play aggro loam, ichorid, or tarmogoyf". would be hella as fun, as a tourney, despites being very strange.
Ah, and the double W point is pretty crazy-The Mighty Quinn would break everyone's ass into pieces.

[Jak]

As I missed the MTG salvation tourney for obscure reasons, I'm interested by this one.

As for the format, I propose (they are different propositions, not a single one):
- as white is supposedly the weakest color, I propose that basic plains can produce W, as they do in real rules, but also can produce 1W exclusively usable to play mono-white spells.
- where the cascade / bond of agony combo is legal (even if it's not a very interesting format)
- counterbalance-less format, since it's according to me the card with the biggest impact in legacy
- if a card would go into its controller's graveyard, instead remove that card from the game. It would be equivallent to both players start with Leyline of the Void into play. But some cards would become too strong (energy field for instance), so that there should be a banned list.
- inversely to last proposition, if a card would be RFG, instead put that card into its controller's graveyard. This format would probably be utterly broken with flashback or psychatog (needs a banned list too).

Are you fucking kidding me?

If you do a tournament, just make it Legacy. The Goyfless tourney was a fun experiment, but I am getting tired of people complaining about cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think there's anything wrong with alternate format ideas, but then, there should also be some actual Legacy relevance.

I wouldn't mind another Goyfless tournament, actually. Failing that, just regular Legacy is fine.

Actually, a tournament with some of the more contentious cards unbanned would be fun too, say;

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon

[Elfrago]

Whatever format will be chosen I'm interested but seriusly: keep it simple, avoid strange stuff. Normal Legacy will be fine and in the future it would be fun to see a Counterbalance-less Source Tournament.

[xTrainx]

goyfless/Counterbalanceless would be cool...

[KillemallCFH]

I, for one, would be interested in another MYOS tournament, since the last one kinda fell apart. Not sure there is enough interest here, though.

[DrJones]

I was reading the "helping out the kids" thread about designing low-budget decks that don't suck, and I thought that maybe we could do a "cheap deck" tournament, with a fixed ammount of money to pour on our virtual deck. If it's cheap enough, we could send the deck as a prize, heh.

The problem with the idea is that it requires people to actually design a deck, which while fun is not everyone's cup of tea, and obviously more work than just picking a deck and play. Also, we need an allowed site (or sites) to provide a price list.

[Dan Turner]

I was reading the "helping out the kids" thread about designing low-budget decks that don't suck, and I thought that maybe we could do a "cheap deck" tournament, with a fixed ammount of money to pour on our virtual deck. If it's cheap enough, we could send the deck as a prize, heh.

The problem with the idea is that it requires people to actually design a deck, which while fun is not everyone's cup of tea, and obviously more work than just picking a deck and play. Also, we need an allowed site (or sites) to provide a price list.

I like that idea a budget legacy deck something like under $100 we could use Apathyhouse.com for prices. I understand $100 is not quiet budget. But in a tournament environment it is. I mean honestly if you want to go cheaper then that you really don't have the budget to play competitive magic.

[xTrainx]

If we did that, we would have to choose a website to use as our "base prices."

I would suggest findmagiccards.com...

[Dan Turner]

well apathyhouse is ebay prices same as motl those are real prices places like find magic cards and such are dream prices dealers were wishing they could get before they end up selling on ebay

[DrJones]

I just found Magic Workstation has a price database you can update from File -> Import -> Import prices. Now I'm trying to figure out if the program can calculate automatically the price of your deck.

[JeroenC]

Counterbalanceless would be cool...

Second this. I want to see if anybody makes some crazy stuff happen.

[The Wes]

Armageddon stax says yes to plains producing 1w!

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Actually, a tournament with some of the more contentious cards unbanned would be fun too, say;

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon
Do this.

And tell me when it starts.

[Nihil Credo]

Budget Legacy is the most interesting in theory, but not in practice: most successful budget lists are built as metagame decks, usually by running nonbasic hate or low-cc hate. If everyone is playing budget, people won't play the same kind of budget decks you would want to bring to normal tournaments.

[Paradigm Shift]

MYOS would be so awesome, the most awesome decks always get built. We should probably cut out a few cards though, so everyone doesn't play certain archtypes.

Or a personal favorite idea, a tourney where everyone plays carbon copies of a deck that made a Worlds T8. That seems awesome.

Normal Legacy is good too

[ykpon]

Actually, a tournament with some of the more contentious cards unbanned would be fun too, say;

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon
second this. myos would be nice too.

[Van Phanel]

Normal legacy would be great.

[Guevera59]

I'm in if a) It's normal legacy or b) the only rules changes are ones regarding legality of cards

[THEchubbymuffin]

Island-less tourney? Always wondered what the format would be like without its precious blue.

[Paradigm Shift]

Island-less tourney? Always wondered what the format would be like without its precious blue.

I predict creatures that cost 1 or 2 mana attacking, Storm counts being created, and The Rock still being reasonably ok.

Also, is anyone up for Pauper? (All commons except for 5 uncommons, Un-sets can be included or not)

[Carabas]

I'd be interested to see where things would go if both Tropical Island and Phyrexian Dreadnaught were banned. You'd have to play some other sort of blue than UGx CB or Dreadstill, but some sort of Counterbalance deck would still be viable MonoU painter, maybe?

[4eak]

I am up for any tournament.

(Please, I don't want to play at, I dare not say its name, mc.ntvlsgtm.www)

If we did a tournament on the select set of cards from the banned list, I'd be interested in making sure that everyone tried to make decks using at least one card from that selected list. It would be a cool way to see a bunch of brand new decks. Although, that would not give us the best idea of how those decks would matchup against the current field.

Pauper sounds good.

Even a regular tournament sounds great.




peace,
4eak

[pi4meterftw]

Regular legacy would be awesome. Also, we should really do something about people not playing their match. I just got owned with a draw at the MTGSal tournament, and people were dropping like flies in the goyfless. I don't really mind the first draw, but the second would suck pretty horribly, since from the perspective of making top 8, a 2nd draw is as good as a loss, since X-0-2 can't even afford to draw again. I suggest perhaps more stringent demands on availability. For example, I think I got the draw because my opponent technically "made himself available" for the last day out of 6, PMing me on the second to last day. Forbiddian's opponent PM'd him and then Forbiddian responded; his opponent never got back, but he got a draw. But it should have to be more reasonable than that for a draw. I thought both cases were pretty sucky; losses should be handed out not only when a player is totally absent, but actually even when both players don't make approximately a similar effort to play, I think. For example, even when I was most busy during the goyfless tournament, I offered my opponent two whole days to play and contacted him well in advance of those two days, instead of only 1 day and virtually no warning in advance. What do you guys think of changing the policy?

[hungryLIKEALION]

I like the idea of the tournament with the few unbans and you have to use 1 of the cards in your deck... seems like it would be fun.

[THEchubbymuffin]

Forbiddian's opponent PM'd him and then Forbiddian responded; his opponent never got back, but he got a draw.

Ya that was me, sorry to forbiddian for that. I got hit with the finals week/SAT combo.

[Zir]

I'd be in as well provided we do something about the amount of draws.

Unbannings would be cool as well, so we could see if WGD and friends would make much of a difference.

[Dark_Shakuras]

What about taking a set of Legacy Legal decks, and everyone is only allowed to play that exact deck. so post like 10-15 lists, and we each get to pick a deck. The it's more playskill and deck than building.

[Piceli89]

What about taking a set of Legacy Legal decks, and everyone is only allowed to play that exact deck. so post like 10-15 lists, and we each get to pick a deck. The it's more playskill and deck than building.

I think that this is pretty useless, since there'll be a player with more skill/luck that will crush the others, and this kind of competition isn't really useful to know better our format. And about this, i think that a tournament with particular rulings should have always an utility in order to understand how things would wor with or without a certain card /interaction/combo. I mean, come on, this site is particularly influential for all Legacy players out there, and i wouldn't fear to bet that also Wotc gets a loo on here, from time to time.
So, having said this, since it will be really difficult that WotC will unban some of the cards on the list (wgd,land tax,ecc), why just can't we make other "costructive" tourneaments without certain cards that are now warping the format? after the Goyfless, there could be:
-Counterbalanceless;
-Brainstormless ( i guess this would be very, very precious).
-Tendrilsless, if it hasn't been already named. Even if i suspect that it will be a normal tournament. but we could insert another lil' ruling here: everyone should bring a combo deck to this tourney, without tendrils. I guess someone will bring the sweet old Intruder of Elves or Heartbeat combo!! ^^
(-FOWless (even if it isn't really warping the format, althou' it defines lots of tiers1); )

It could turn out to be pretty useful.

[georgjorge]

I'm in if a) It's normal legacy or b) the only rules changes are ones regarding legality of cards

... and for the second, I'd rather have some banned cards allowed than additional cards banned.

[Julian23]

... and for the second, I'd rather have some banned cards allowed than additional cards banned.

I agree. A normal Legacy tournament with additional cards allowed would be very interesting to play in.

[ParkerLewis]

I don't think there's anything wrong with alternate format ideas, but then, there should also be some actual Legacy relevance.

I wouldn't mind another Goyfless tournament, actually. Failing that, just regular Legacy is fine.

Actually, a tournament with some of the more contentious cards unbanned would be fun too, say;

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon

This.


Whatever format will be chosen I'm interested but seriusly: keep it simple, avoid strange stuff. Normal Legacy will be fine and in the future it would be fun to see a Counterbalance-less Source Tournament.

And this.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think that this is pretty useless, since there'll be a player with more skill/luck that will crush the others...That's the point. It's a competition. Like limited except for Legacy.

[spirit of the wretch]

Actually, a tournament with some of the more contentious cards unbanned would be fun too, say;

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon

This

[phoenix33]

Forbiddian's opponent PM'd him and then Forbiddian responded; his opponent never got back, but he got a draw. But it should have to be more reasonable than that for a draw. I thought both cases were pretty sucky; losses should be handed out not only when a player is totally absent, but actually even when both players don't make approximately a similar effort to play, I think. For example, even when I was most busy during the goyfless tournament, I offered my opponent two whole days to play and contacted him well in advance of those two days, instead of only 1 day and virtually no warning in advance. What do you guys think of changing the policy?

Forbiddian may have deserved the win based on his opponent not acting enough, however, his only post was this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3930608&postcount=63), from which C_C could only tell that both players had been in contact. Had he posted again about the situation, he may have got the win he deserved. Obviously you should have the win if the opponent PMs you once and disappears, but if you don't tell the TO what's happened, how are they going to know?

Also, I'd play in IBA's suggested tourney.

[4eak]

A banned list tourney sounds like what most people want. Would it be possible to add a few more banned cards on that unbanned list, just for a bit more diversity? I don't want to see just 20 WGD decks.

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon


What about:

-Metalworker
-Mind Twist
-Hermit Druid
-Time Spiral
-one more? (Skullclamp or Fastbond or Gush maybe?)

When I look at just the top list, I only see WGD and perhaps another Entomb deck being viably made/tweaked in the allotted time to build a deck before the tourney (that is to say: the other cards might be breakable, but I don't think they would be for this tournament). So, perhaps we could add just a few more decent cards, or would that be too much?




peace,
4eak

[ykpon]

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon
how about
- Entomb or Dragon
+ Black Vise
+ Mind Twist

upd
4eak, Druid and Time Spiral seem ok too. maybe even Grim Monolith and Frantic Search. but Metalworker, Clamp, Fastbond and Gush are absolutely broken.

[4eak]

4eak, Druid and Time Spiral seem ok too. maybe even Grim Monolith and Frantic Search. but Metalworker, Clamp, Fastbond and Gush are absolutely broken.

You surprise me with Frantic Search (has been amazing in Solidarity during my testing). Would be fun to see it on the field!

I'm actually not convinced some of those are really broken though. Metalworker and Fastbond in particular have been safe enough in my testing. They can be a part of good decks, but they haven't been anywhere near format warping (e.g. Affinity in T2).

It seems like this would be a decent place to test assertions of brokenness for many of these cards. If you think they're really broken, then build a deck around them and play it at the tournament, eh?

Either way is fine with me though; I was just offering a suggestion.




peace,
4eak

[xTrainx]

Pauper would be really fun...

[pi4meterftw]

Forbiddian may have deserved the win based on his opponent not acting enough, however, his only post was this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3930608&postcount=63), from which C_C could only tell that both players had been in contact. Had he posted again about the situation, he may have got the win he deserved. Obviously you should have the win if the opponent PMs you once and disappears, but if you don't tell the TO what's happened, how are they going to know?

Also, I'd play in IBA's suggested tourney.

I PM'd the TO and he said I "was fine and just needed to wait." I also posted in the thread. But then it turns out that I wasn't fine. Maybe he forgot.

I'd be down for this tournament. A draw and then the subsequent mulligan into a bunch of equipment game 1, drawing 10 lands in 13 cards, and then also 1 aether vial (2 Burrenton forge tenders, and he was zoo and got mostly green that game) means I'm probably out of top 8. I could go WWWW and then probably still not make it on tie breaks.

To address people who have the possibility of top 8ing, why not just run the tournament, and then there will be fewer people due to this, and then it will end sooner, probably in time for the MTGSal tournament to end and then we can hold another one. Or you can play two in parallel. Unless you have a crazy psycho job this summer or are going to take a really long vacation, that should be pretty manageable.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- Land Tax
- Illusionary Mask
- Dream Halls
- Earthcraft
- Entomb
- Worldgorger's Dragon
- Hermit Druid
- Mind Twist
- Mana Drain
- Black Vise

I'm not sure all those cards would ever come off the list, but it'd be interesting without being degenerate. At least on MWS Mana Drain's cost isn't an issue.

We could add Grim Monolith in place of Land Tax, it seems marginally less terrible.

[Michael Keller]

I'd participate if this were to happen.

Pretty nifty ideas.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I too would enjoy some non-MWS-head-bashing competition!

[DrJones]

I think these "unban something" ideas becomes less useful as the list increases, specially IBA's last suggestion, which increases tenfold the "swinginess" of the format for no purpose other than lulz. Mana Drain? Black Vise? Why don't suggest also Strip Mine and Library of Alexandria? Those cards all have in common that win games that should have been lost, and require no skill whatsoever. These don't make games more interesting, they make it more random. You are adding a bunch of cards that have to be answered as soon as they enter play or you lose, and they all require packing a lot of different answer cards in your deck; unless you happen to be blue, in which case you are okay with the general-purpose countermagic that you already played, plus Mana Drain.

More Swinginess + more fronts to protect + only general answer being countermagic + broken countermagic allowed = very predictable metagame. Now, if blue decks had to actually sacrifice slots to protect from any of those newly introduced cards, like the rest of the field...

There are also flaws with the concept that haven't been addressed yet: you can't use the tournament to test if the weaker of those cards on the list are unfair or not, because they can (will) be overshadowed by the stronger ones. Moreover, decklists with more than one of the banned cards (Illus Mask + Mana Drain, for example) have almost zero chance of ever being legal, are likelier to make Top 8, and if so, you won't ever know if the unbalance came from one card (Mask) or the other (Drain).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The problem with any suggestion about unbannings is that very few people actually understand structurally how the game works and how Legacy design works, and thus have an odd idea of which cards would have an impact. For instance, the suggestion that adding Illusionary Mask to a deck increases it's odds of Top 8'ing.

[DrJones]

You know, if only because Illusionary Mask makes your creatures uncounterable in a blue-dominated meta, and also because Roc Hatchling is teh killer. :P

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

and also because Roc Hatchling is teh killer. :P

I am defeated!

[elof]

I'm up for almost any type of tournament.

[Dark_Shakuras]

How about this. You may pick and play 4 of any card on the banned list provided:

1. It is not Banned or Restricted in Vintage.

Basically it would be like playing old Type 1.5 but you only get 1 card. So take your 4 Mana Drain, OR your 4 Metalworkers, OR your 4 Grim Monolith.

[Nihil Credo]

How about this. You may pick and play 4 of any card on the banned list provided:

1. It is not Banned or Restricted in Vintage.

Basically it would be like playing old Type 1.5 but you only get 1 card. So take your 4 Mana Drain, OR your 4 Metalworkers, OR your 4 Grim Monolith.

That's excessive in my opinion. Between Skullclamp, Oath, and Workshop you would obsolete most of Legacy as we know it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let's do this;

Let's say that we want to try three cards being unbanned, as a small number, and then set these parameters;

We want these cards to be capable of having an impact; they are not the weakest cards on the banned list.

We want these cards to be balanced; we don't want them to destroy the tournament.

We want these cards to represent different strategies; we don't want to create a combo tournament.

We don't want to make blue more powerful than it is; we don't want these cards to be blue.

We want these cards to be capable of going into more than one deck.

With that end, I would suggest;

- Entomb
- Mind Twist
- Earthcraft

As potential unbans for one tournament.

[Jak]

Let's do this;

Let's say that we want to try three cards being unbanned, as a small number, and then set these parameters;

We want these cards to be capable of having an impact; they are not the weakest cards on the banned list.

We want these cards to be balanced; we don't want them to destroy the tournament.

We want these cards to represent different strategies; we don't want to create a combo tournament.

We don't want to make blue more powerful than it is; we don't want these cards to be blue.

We want these cards to be capable of going into more than one deck.

With that end, I would suggest;

- Entomb
- Mind Twist
- Earthcraft

As potential unbans for one tournament.

Sounds awesome.

[4eak]

One more question: Are we required to play a deck that uses the temporarily unbanned cards, or is it completely open and entirely up the player whether or not we use the cards?




peace,
4eak

[Van Phanel]

If we do this unban-stuff thingy, I'd suggest Frantic Search. :tongue: