[Article] Maro-Tweet Talk I haz question

[JeroenC]

dugtrio17 @maro254 Here's a general one: What's your least favorite set that you've designed?


The set that I'd most like to do over would be Odyssey. While there are a lot of things I like about the design, I think I made one of the most classic design mistakes possible: you can't just make players do something, you have to make them do something they want to do. Odyssey's design taught me this lesson, so I'm grateful for having had it. That said, if I had it to do all over again, I think I could make a set that would be much better received by the audience.


Anybody that can inform me exactly what that "problem" about Odyssey was?

[Cire]

dugtrio17 @maro254 Here's a general one: What's your least favorite set that you've designed?


The set that I'd most like to do over would be Odyssey. While there are a lot of things I like about the design, I think I made one of the most classic design mistakes possible: you can't just make players do something, you have to make them do something they want to do. Odyssey's design taught me this lesson, so I'm grateful for having had it. That said, if I had it to do all over again, I think I could make a set that would be much better received by the audience.


Anybody that can inform me exactly what that "problem" about Odyssey was?


Self - Milling

[DrJones]

Dwarves

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Dwarves

Burn in hell.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I liked Oddysey. However, this makes sense since I'm sure he's pretty happy with these new sets and I am not.

And I think Barbarians sucked so bad. I wanted them to be good, I really did. Damn. Still mad. Discard at random? Wtf.

Pce,

--DC

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Discarding your hand isn't something that appeals to most players' interests.

[Nightmare]

Discarding your hand isn't something that appeals to most players' interests.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/272.jpg

[Parcher]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/272.jpg

'masturbates furiously'

[mujadaddy]

'masturbates furiously'IZZAT SUM CLAIRE HUXTABLE?? :eek:

[Arctic_Slicer]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/272.jpg

Before someone was able to successfully use that card it was relegated to the $.25 junk rare bin.

It's not a popular mechanic for the bulk of magic players out there, which makes it less well received, which hurts sales, which is bad for business.

[DrJones]

Before someone was able to successfully use that card it was relegated to the $.25 junk rare bin.

It's not a popular mechanic for the bulk of magic players out there, which makes it less well received, which hurts sales, which is bad for business.Lol, I've been playing before Mirage was even released, and I was unable to buy or trade for that card back then because it was too expensive for my lunch money, and I wanted it so bad because I knew it was awesome; at that time I didn't have internet nor ebay, so I couldn't get it from there. Don't say it was a $.25 junk rare because that's totally false. :frown:

They were... about $4.5 each. With that money, I'd rather buy a booster. :laugh:

[Mordel]

Terrible cards. When I think to sets from my "modern" type two years, Odyssey is the set that comes to mind when I think of worst cards and slowest decks(even before MASQUES).
What kept me playing during that time were little gems from seventh, that I like to refer to collectively as "opporb".

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

They should make more sets like Kawigama.

[emidln]

They should make more sets like Kawigama.

DIAF. The people who designed Kamigawa should be locked up so they don't accidentally create something that bad again.

[caiomarcos]

They should make more sets like Ravnica or Mirage.

I agree!

[Sims]

DIAF. The people who designed Kamigawa should be locked up so they don't accidentally create something that bad again.

From a flavor standpoint Kamigawa was amazing, and I actually enjoyed playing block during that time (though I didn't play type 2 when it was legal).

If they could create another heavily mythological, story driven set like Kamigawa and print cards on a modern powerlevel, I personally feel the block would be a huge success. Personal opinion though.

[Mordel]

I enjoyed standard with Kamigawa a lot more than I did with Odyssey really. With odyssey, I got to have fun with opporb, but with Kamigawa standard, I found myself playing a range of different decks: White equip weenie, muc, mono blue tron, BRW sligh(with ravnica), GB Death cloud, monoblack death cloud, critical mass, ug grafting mass and the list goes on. With odyssey era standard, I had the exact same massive collection to work with (sets x 4) and I found myself very, very bored with the decks available and how little in the way of good decks there were. I played KBC once though and that was enough for me. It was fucking terrible...never played Odyssey block though, but sealed and draft were pretty lame for it.

[DrJones]

Kamigawa standard was crap before Saviors because everyone was playing affinity, and was crap after Saviors because everyone was playing 4xJitte. It was by far the WORST format I've ever played, and I played Prophecy limited, a format where your eyes bleed every time you open a booster.

[Mordel]

I enjoyed playing decks that raped affinity, thanks. People that couldn't deal with affinity were fucking newbs.

[coraz86]

I remember hating Standard then because I didn't play blue, but looking back (and now being a fan of blue), I would actually argue that Kamigawa/Ravnica was an excellent Standard, quite possibly the best this side of the cleaned-up Urza's era (by 'cleaned up' I mean 'sans Academy').

Regarding Odyssey; they pushed graveyard awarenessway too hard, especially seeing as flashback and threshold sort of counteract one another if they're both in the same deck. They then made black powerful in Torment to the point that other colors were difficult at best to play; made green and white the focus of Judgment, but did not make them anywhere near as powerful (other than Mirari's Wake, which turned out to just be a blue card anyway); and made red so awful throughout the block that red was more or less not a factor outside of FtK and Fire/Ice (which, again, more often than not appeared in UGr Opposition decks, UBr Tog, etc. to give blue removal they normally could not enjoy). I remember the Worlds coverage (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/events/worlds02) being modestly painful to read that year, for instance.

[Captain_Morgan]

Od sucked hard from the lack of efficiency, the Flashback cards were too overcost. The creatures were overcost and weak at the start. The idea of "growing powerful as the game goes on" is a great concept, the same with discard. However, Flashback was horribly weak and Madness was superior to it on many levels. Had Flashback and Madness worked closer to together with a tighter mana cost then it would've been extremely interesting. Threshold, the only thing that needed to happen was a readjustment of the power given to creatures rather than overcosted, blackloaded blundgeons they were.

There was also the legends and sub tribal themes that seemed to not be connected to anything outside of the block. Balthor the Stout, Pianna, Kirtar and several other creatures had the opportunity to suck less with some changes to creature type and cost effectiveness.

The tribalish theme had no connection to Onslaught, which basically ruined some chances for certain creatures as well.

[Malchar]

Yeah, one of the things Maro has said over and over again is that they really pushed for legit creature types in Odyssey block, but it turns out that most of those creature types disappeared when Onslaught came rolling in. Also, in all fairness, red was really strong during Invasion and Onslaught.

[Eldariel]

Kamigawa standard was crap before Saviors because everyone was playing affinity, and was crap after Saviors because everyone was playing 4xJitte. It was by far the WORST format I've ever played, and I played Prophecy limited, a format where your eyes bleed every time you open a booster.

I personally liked that format a lot more than Standard since mono-colored died (that is, pretty much since Ravnica got printed). In fact, I fondly remember the post-bannings days. Everyone played Jitte? As far as I remember, the Tron-decks, Big Red, and even some of the Green Solution-decks eschewed it. Like, maybe WW played Jitte but beyond that...

I really liked Kamigawa, all things considered. I share Sims's opinion on the awesome of the story-driven block, and I did kinda like the Block-play even if it was rather Jitte-driven.


Then again, I enjoyed many things about Odyssey (although the überlinearity bothered me) and hated, among others, Ravnica (and have a distaste for Invasion) so I guess I'm just weird.

[Blitzbold]

I also liked Kamigawa Standard. Jitte was played, of course, but there were so many more decks which were very enjoyable. Eladriel listed some of them, but there were also Ninjas (won German Nationals as far as I can remember), Erayo decks and so on.

Kamigawa Limited sucked on the other hand. I lost a GP Trial in the finals against a deck a lot worse than mine, but which contained a single Jitte. My opponent drew Jitte in games #1 and #3 and basically that was it.

[nastynate]

One of the biggest complaints during Odyssey block was that the decks built themselves. The mechanics of the set were so linear, and the good card-combos so obvious, that any monkey could spot U/G madness as a good deck without even trying. It was also difficult to build any effective decks that deviated away from the patently obvious, since the vast majority of the cards that weren't used in FFL decks were terrible.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Kamigawa-Ravnica was an absolutely fantastic environment. There were a dozen viable strategies and every color was good for something. There were top contenders in every archetype, from Heazy Street and Zoo to Beach House and Greater Good to Heartbeat and Owling Mine. Lots of decks either didn't run Jitte at all or delegated it to the sideboard. It was a happy place with flowery meadows, and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate where the children laughed and danced and played with gumdrop smiles.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Hell, I was just referring to Limited. I officially gave up on all Standard after losing to two White Weenie decks playing Troll And Nail.

From a Limited and flavor perspective, Kawigama and Ravnica were both fantastic sets.

[DragoFireheart]

Kamigawa-Ravnica was an absolutely fantastic environment. There were a dozen viable strategies and every color was good for something. There were top contenders in every archetype, from Heazy Street and Zoo to Beach House and Greater Good to Heartbeat and Owling Mine. Lots of decks either didn't run Jitte at all or delegated it to the sideboard. It was a happy place with flowery meadows, and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate where the children laughed and danced and played with gumdrop smiles.

I was doubting your sarcasm at first, but this pretty much removed all doubt...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's hyperbole, not sarcasm, noob.

[DragoFireheart]

That's hyperbole, not sarcasm,



Hey, it could easily be interpreted as both.


noob.


Touche. :laugh:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Seriously, though? Barring some clunkers, especially in Saviors, Kamigawa was an incredibly fun set to play. Even if power wise it was closer to Homeland, Legends and Masques block than Mirrodin, it was a much fun set than any of those. Especially Mirrodin.

[DragoFireheart]

Seriously, though? Barring some clunkers, especially in Saviors, Kamigawa was an incredibly fun set to play. Even if power wise it was closer to Homeland, Legends and Masques block than Mirrodin, it was a much fun set than any of those. Especially Mirrodin.

I don't know about fun. Flavor? Absolutely. Lots of great art work from that set and some interesting concepts as well.

[Goblin Snowman]

Seriously, though? Barring some clunkers, especially in Saviors, Kamigawa was an incredibly fun set to play. Even if power wise it was closer to Homeland, Legends and Masques block than Mirrodin, it was a much fun set than any of those. Especially Mirrodin.

It also had a few incredibly powerful and interesting cards. Top, Gifts, and Jitte come to mind as cards that have very unique effects that are extremely potent in specific situations.

Maybe it's me, but I still enjoy CoK block more than most formats for limited as well. "Shrug".

[DragoFireheart]

I personally loved the Mirrodin block, but that's just me.

[Gaius Darkfire]

Odyssey was fun, but I can see where he would be so disappointed in how it came out.


Kamigawa-Ravnica was an absolutely fantastic environment. There were a dozen viable strategies and every color was good for something. There were top contenders in every archetype, from Heazy Street and Zoo to Beach House and Greater Good to Heartbeat and Owling Mine. Lots of decks either didn't run Jitte at all or delegated it to the sideboard. It was a happy place with flowery meadows, and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate where the children laughed and danced and played with gumdrop smiles.

Oh god yes, that format was amazing. The two years with Ravnica block in Standard (especially that first year) was such a magical time.

[Grendel]

Hi there, first time poster long time reader. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here.

Odyssey was terrible. The only reason Type2 players got excited about it was because Lin Sivvi rotated out of the environment. The power card to get was Call of the Herd; it traded hardcore and sold hardcore on the secondary market. Everything else was blah until the Black Blue deck that shall not be named reared it's ugly head.

[Aggro_zombies]

Ravnica block in general was just really good. It's by far the best block they've done recently.

Mirrodin Limited was boring as shit, especially triple Mir draft. Loxodon Warhammer as uncommon? Seriously? That was just BS, especially if you got it in multiples.

I never drafted Kamigawa, so I can't speak to that block's Limited formats. I remember the only things I found interesting were the ninjas and Thief of Hope. That block was just so...clunky.

[Mayk0l]

The set had Wild Mongrel. That alone makes it awesome.

[Grollub]

Tempest Block was the greatest ever, with Mirage/Tempest T2 on a close second.

[Dark_Cynic87]

If they hadn't made red suck so bad, you would never have gotten stuff like Goblin Piledriver, Sharpshooter or SGC. They guilt-tripped themselves into making goblins good. Goblin and/or red players should be thankful that they got hated on in Odyssey block. And screw Kamigawa. I never bought one pack, and I'm damn proud of that. I never got the memo on just how bad it was, but I've bought portal packs, and I had the funny feeling that it was that...only without the collective potential.

And I was right.

Pce,

--DC

[Some Guy]

Yeah, one of the things Maro has said over and over again is that they really pushed for legit creature types in Odyssey block, but it turns out that most of those creature types disappeared when Onslaught came rolling in.

Who exactly chooses the creature types on non-tribal heavy blocks ? for just the random ones.

[Vacrix]

How'd the fuck up? They made Kamahl a 6/1.. Anyone who read the book should know he was a total badass, deserving of way more toughness than 1. The guy got touched by Phage and lived for fuck sake (and she's untouchable)..

[General_Norris]

I still enjoy CoK block.

You bastard! Leave them alone! :laugh:

Bad joke, I'm sorry.

I actually liked Kamigawa because whoever played a Jitte against Tooth was losing a turn.

[morgan_coke]

The thing about Kamigawa block is it was really, really schizophrenic as far as standard environments go. Kami/Mir was such a bad format that they had to institute standard bannings because people were quitting in disgust. Kami/Rav was one of the great standard environments of all time.

Same with TSP block. Amazing when paired with Rav, Faeloveforever when paired with LOR.

I think the real lesson is that Ravnica was one of the best sets they've ever produced, mostly because it contained few blatantly overpowered cards/strategies but like a billion good, solid cards/strats.

So people could pretty much play whatever the hell they wanted and still have a good, competitive deck. That's why the RAV/X Standards were so good. Lots and lots of high level playables, very few broken things.

[Bardo]

What the necro?

[jrsthethird]

What the necro?

LOL. I thought that message from Maro was really old. I thought someone was reading the MTG article database or something.

I want them to do another GY block. I think the idea is good but looking back the execution could be better. WTF was the push towards Cephalids to replace Merfolk as the flagship blue creature, but then completely discontinuing BOTH? I understand supporting Dwarves as a secondary red tribe, but for some reason, look:

Apocalypse - 8 merfolk! (including a 'Merfolk Ringleader' so to speak, a genuine tribal card!)
7th Edition - 4
Odyssey - 0
Torment - 1 (Ambassador Laquatus, not sure the flavor here)
Judgment through Dissension - 0 (five years of sets!)
Time Spiral - 2
Tenth Editon - 4

Proof of drought. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&output=spoiler,visualspoiler,visualspoiler&set=%7C[%22Eighth%20Edition%22]%7C[%22Ninth%20Edition%22]%7C[%22Odyssey%22]%7C[%22Judgment%22]%7C[%22Onslaught%22]%7C[%22Legions%22]%7C[%22Scourge%22]%7C[%22Mirrodin%22]%7C[%22Darksteel%22]%7C[%22Fifth%20Dawn%22]%7C[%22Champions%20of%20Kamigawa%22]%7C[%22Saviors%20of%20Kamigawa%22]%7C[%22Betrayers%20of%20Kamigawa%22]%7C[%22Ravnica:%20City%20of%20Guilds%22]%7C[%22Guildpact%22]%7C[%22Dissension%22]%7C[%22Torment%22]&subtype=+[%22Merfolk%22]&name=+![laquatus])