[Free SCG Article]Legacy's Allure - Cleaning The Legacy Banned List [Archive]

Mordel

06-09-2009, 01:53 PM

I understand his thinking about some of the cards, but right now legacy is a very balanced format and throwing frantic search or gush into it seems like a risky move. As much as I would like to be able to play real miracle gro or dust off mono blue stasis and see how it plays five years after it got crippled with some tweaks, I don't think giving borderline degenerate decks like DDFT or AdN a freebie draw two spell is a very good plan. I had my fill of a format that got completely overwhelmed by combo in mirage block, necro [donate]-era 1.x and tempest/urza standard. I don't really want to be forced into a corner and either play a deck that tries to have as overwhelming of a game against combo as possible and risk getting raped by "sub par" decks that combo destroys or play combo and beat everything that is designed to beat me.

KrzyMoose

06-09-2009, 02:22 PM

The thing is, this format has Force of Will and Counterbalance. How does Gush or Frantic Search actually fix that problem? Like, if you're able to resolve Doomsday against a deck with Blue cards, you're probably winning already. And, if you're playing a deck with Doomsday against a deck without Blue cards, you're probably winning, anyway.

The only card I'd be a little uneasy about is Recruiter.

Everything else is either on par with or just worse than what's happening now.

Also, the one thing I kept thinking about the whole "clean up the banned list" was that most of the cards people wanted to unban would either be unplayable (as in, strictly worse than what we have now), or wouldn't actually do anything. So, I thought, what was the point of taking cards off the banned list of no one is going to use them? Then I realized that Legacy is where people go to play whatever the fuck they want. If someone wants to play an awful Dream Halls combo deck, then he should be able to!

majikal

06-09-2009, 02:25 PM

What is it with people crying to unban Illusionary Mask?:confused:

Mordel

06-09-2009, 02:28 PM

Ch@os

06-09-2009, 02:32 PM

Holy moly fukken ! Illusionary Mask in legacy XD

KrzyMoose

06-09-2009, 02:39 PM

The format is more than FoW and CB though. Both draw spells above pretty much dodge CB with ease and can contribute to amassing enough hate/resources to negate a CB or a FoW in a hand AND also ensure severe beatings against non CB decks, which there are a fucking lot of in the format.

True, but I don't think it'd be as insane as everyone is saying.

I mean, I'd be the first person to tell you how bonkers Gush is, and I'd love to play with four in every deck.

But, if you're looking at the card from just a Combo point-of-view, don't you think that they could use the help? I mean, Combo decks are basically doing nothing right now, and I don't think that giving them Gush will take them from underplayed and underperforming to completely-batshit-broken insane.

*edit*

What is it with people crying to unban Illusionary Mask?

Because someone, somewhere wants to play an Illusionary Mask deck. Yes, it's obviously worse than Stifle + Dreadnought and obviously worse than pretty much everything else, but who cares?! If someone wants to play it, then he should be able to!

*edit 2* Going back to Gush, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to play that card in NLU. You don't even need to run Coatl. I've been back-and-forth on Gush a lot. I do think the card is pretty much completely-batshit-broken insane, but it's never seen play in Legacy. So, why not try it?

matelml

06-09-2009, 03:10 PM

I do think the card is pretty much completely-batshit-broken insane, but it's never seen play in Legacy. So, why not try it?

Because most people wouldn't like it when any nonblue deck would always lose to a blue deck. People who don't realize Gush would make combo exactly batshit-broken insane have no idea what they are talking about.

Smmenen

06-09-2009, 03:13 PM

The problem with Gush is that Ug/x decks are already the best decks in Legacy. Gush would only boost them. I don't think legalizing Gush makes any sense either. If you legalize Gush, then you might as well legalize Oath of Druids.

caiomarcos

06-09-2009, 03:16 PM

mercenarybdu

06-09-2009, 03:17 PM

I agree with some of the cards has proposed, but not all of them.

Gheizen64

06-09-2009, 03:32 PM

The sole fact he has proposed gush make all the article trash. Sorry.

Also, no Tax but GUSH and FRANTIC SEARCH? For real? Just no.

AngryTroll

06-09-2009, 03:34 PM

I think he's probably right on most of the cards. The ones I'd be fine with leaving on the list for now (especially if we get some of the other goodies) are Recruiter, Gush, and Frantic Search. Illusionary Mask could come off, but at $100 a pop (and being worse than Stifle or Trickbind), they're probably fine where they are.

Nice article!

Mostly_Harmless

06-09-2009, 03:35 PM

Another issue is that some of those cards play far too well together. A friend and I tinkered around with some dream halls decks and even tried a couple with frantic search when we heard rumors that they might be unbanned. I suspect dream halls is fine, but if it was coupled with frantic search (and maybe grim monolith too) it would probably be obscene.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-09-2009, 03:43 PM

I think Entomb and Mind Twist are far safer than most of those cards.

One card that I think would be very interesting is Earth Craft. It could go in Enchantress, in Elves, it might spawn new decks. It's a powerful and fun card, and green needs cards that fit that description and don't rhyme with "Marmanoyf" or "Closan Pip".

Wereodile

06-09-2009, 03:50 PM

green needs cards that fit that description and don't rhyme with "Marmanoyf" or "Closan Pip".

You're close to having almost all of your comments posted in the Source quote thread. you are hilarious.

Does WoTC ever consider "testing the waters" with temporary un-bans? As long as it doesn't fall on one of the Legacy based Pro tours or major SCG events there shouldn't be too much of a backlash. This may be a terrible idea btw.

TheCramp

06-09-2009, 03:57 PM

I would be thrilled to see grim monolith come off the list. I would not mind seeing a mono :r: midrange or some version of stax make it on the DTB forum. If I could ever realistically put banefire into a deck I would be thrilled. Grim Seeker would be a deck, think about it... I am pro earthcraft. I love those blue cards listed, but honestly they should not come off. I would like there to be decks in every base color in the DTB forum, split between agro control and a splash of combo. That to me would be a truly healthy format more good blue cards would not make that happen. Frantic Search is just about my favorite card, so I say that really wanting to play the thing.

DrJones

06-09-2009, 03:58 PM

I think the problem with earthcraft were the blue/black decks that started winning tournaments with it, and not the green decks in which it was an almost fine card.

Shawon

06-09-2009, 04:23 PM

Mordel

06-09-2009, 04:23 PM

One recurring problem I see when people are discussing unbans is that they try to put the unbanned cards in current decks and archetypes, which is not always the case. Actually, the biggest problem of unbanning cards like Frantic Search and Gush is that they can create completely new archetypes or completely different iterations of what we have now. And they would probably be broken, like everything that had Gush and/or Frantic Search before.
So, the argument "Gush would suck in combo" or "Frantic Search is worse than what we use in *deck*" is not enough.
Just look back to Flash and see how easy it is, with the amount and variety of cards we have in Legacy, to create completely new and unexpected decks.

New decks being spawned by unbannings?! Absurd!

I am positive no one has ever thought of that...even though 98% of legacy players have been playing the game for fucking years and know how the game works.

The problem with that is most of us don't have crystal balls, don't feel like making decks that abuse cards which are currently banned and/or are not great at breaking cards anyway. As a result of this, one of the best methods to try to use to make an informed sort of guess at what the impact of a card being unbanned might be would be to look at how they may impact current decks.

As best I know, the R&D team doesn't have a future(or maybe past would be a better term) league for figuring out the repercussions of unbanning cards, they look at the formats as they are, maybe ask someone like Zvi what he thinks about [card]. I think in a way, asking someone like him is a bad plan to an extent though because he was an infamous combo player, who had his haydays as a pro during periods of competitive magic play was often dominated by c-c-combos whenever a new set came out.

Edit:

I don't agree with Illusionary Mask being unbanned. Aside from the fact that it cheats Dreadnought into play, it also makes it uncounterable. An opponent can still counter either Stifle or Dreadnought.

Don't just think about Dreadnought. In a deck with Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, etc., having Illusionary Mask down effectively makes all of your creature threats uncounterable. That's a little too effective, in my opinion.

Kind of like vial, only slower in that it still forces you to tap the mana for a creature. Shusher makes creatures uncounterable and numerous other cards make things similarly uncounterable. Oh nooooo...

Mask is a card that I would be very interested to see hit the format because it fixing the mana cost of a creature and being able to cheat out a dreadnaught seems like as broken as it could really get. It's in type one and that is the most broken thing anyone has done as best as I recall. Besides: uncounterable creatures? Wait, does that mean something else that may shake the hold that CB has on the format, according to some people? OH NOOOOOOOO...

KrzyMoose

06-09-2009, 04:26 PM

I don't agree with Illusionary Mask being unbanned. Aside from the fact that it cheats Dreadnought into play, it also makes it uncounterable. An opponent can still counter either Stifle or Dreadnought.

You can counter Mask.

Don't just think about Dreadnought. In a deck with Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, etc., having Illusionary Mask down effectively makes all of your creature threats uncounterable. That's a little too effective, in my opinion.

Are you aware that we already have a card that costs half the mana to cast and is free to use and does the samething?*

*Hint: It starts with AEther and ends in Vial.

Shawon

06-09-2009, 04:45 PM

In a Dreadnought deck, would you run Vial? My point was that Illusionary Mask doesn't just cheat Dreadnought into play, it puts - other creatures that you would run alongside Dreadnought - into play without being countered. By the way, Aether Vial and Vexing Shusher don't cheat Dreadnought into play, not by themselves at least.

hi-val

06-09-2009, 04:50 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-09-2009, 04:54 PM

Hoojo

06-09-2009, 04:55 PM

Thanks for all the feedback! I divided the list into cards that could definitely come off and ones that can possibly come off, but that I am not too sure on. Those who did more than skim will see that, and those who just skimmed will be pointed out and mocked on the forums : ) I did not unequivocally say we should unban Gush, just that it's not as broken as it is in formats with Time Walk and Fastbond and Moxes to fuel Merchant Scroll!

I really enjoyed the article and feel it was one of the best, most level-headed articles regarding the banned list.

Wereodile

06-09-2009, 04:57 PM

Thanks for all the feedback! I divided the list into cards that could definitely come off and ones that can possibly come off, but that I am not too sure on. Those who did more than skim will see that, and those who just skimmed will be pointed out and mocked on the forums : ) I did not unequivocally say we should unban Gush, just that it's not as broken as it is in formats with Time Walk and Fastbond and Moxes to fuel Merchant Scroll!

There are a number of Tempo based decks that are designed to run on 3 lands or less and wouldn't those decks prefer Frantic Search over Gush? I guess this is kind of a case for Gush and against Frantic Search (a weak one at that)

On top of that, good job! I always enjoy the article.

Mordel

06-09-2009, 04:57 PM

In a Dreadnought deck, would you run Vial? My point was that Illusionary Mask doesn't just cheat Dreadnought into play, it puts - other creatures that you would run alongside Dreadnought - into play without being countered.

Dreadnaughts are brutally easy to deal with. I also may run vial in a dreadaught deck that plays more than just dreadnaughts and trinket mages...like, say merfok or some sort of baseruption-style deck.

Illusionary Mask doesn't just cheat Dreadnought into play, it puts - other creatures that you would run alongside Dreadnought - into play without being countered.

Thus, why people brought up vials.

By the way, Aether Vial and Vexing Shusher don't cheat Dreadnought into play, not by themselves at least.

o rly?

caiomarcos

06-09-2009, 05:39 PM

The problem with that is most of us don't have crystal balls...

NO WAY?!??! Absurd!! How come the mighty Legacy players don't have crystal balls? Do they have any balls at all?

Anyway, cut the cheap sarcasm, did you see how dumb it makes one sound?

My point was that instead of wasting time with near to useless assumptions and guesses, like assuming that Gush is safe because it wouldn't make Thresh better or narrowing Mask to the Dreadnought interaction and comparing it with with Stifle, people should actually base their arguments in deck building and testing, if not, let's keep our feelings to ourselves.

But now my point is - cut the sarcasm.

SpatulaOfTheAges

06-09-2009, 06:02 PM

Aside from Frantic Search and Gush, agreed.

Plus Land Tax, obv.

Goaswerfraiejen

06-09-2009, 06:12 PM

Goblin Recruiter

This muchacho got his place on the list because he plays unfairly with Food Chain and Goblin Charbelcher. Stack your deck with Goblins and draw into a bunch of them or just out-and-out Belch your opponent out. Food Chain Goblins was a good deck in Type 1.5 (five years ago) and Goblins is still strong now, but I don't see Recruiter being "broken." Yes, I certainly see Food Chain Goblins being played and strong, but it's a deck that relies on a 2G enchantment or the attack phase with a big pile of dudes. The biggest danger is that it would push out other aggro decks from playability, but I could see a deck like Merfolk using Daze and Force of Will to effectively combat the combo. The Recruiter is probably safe to reintroduce into Legacy.

I was surprised that the analysis of Recruiter stopped at Food Chain Goblins and ignored Goblins' most typical incarnation as an aggro-control deck. While the Food Chain combo is still vulnerable to the same elements as any other combo deck, Recruiter is a completely different issue in a contemporary Goblins shell, is it not?

That doesn't mean that it shouldn't come off the list, or that it's not broken: I'm just a little put out by the focus here on what seems like a more obsolete and less dangerous deck. There are all kinda of arguments to be made both for and against Recruiter, but I wasn't seeing the kind of arguments that I would have expected, is all.

On the whole, however, this was a very fair and balanced treatment (despite any number of disagreements), and I was happy to read it. Congratulations on a job well done.

Julian23

06-09-2009, 06:13 PM

Land Tax so needs to come off that list - it's not even funny!

Well, I'm really sceptical about Gush and Frantic Search. Grim Monolith, Dream Halls, WGD, Illusionary Mask....hell, maybe even Time Spiral are fine with me.

hi-val

06-09-2009, 06:26 PM

I was surprised that the analysis of Recruiter stopped at Food Chain Goblins and ignored Goblins' most typical incarnation as an aggro-control deck. While the Food Chain combo is still vulnerable to the same elements as any other combo deck, Recruiter is a completely different issue in a contemporary Goblins shell, is it not?

That doesn't mean that it shouldn't come off the list, or that it's not broken: I'm just a little put out by the focus here on what seems like a more obsolete and less dangerous deck. There are all kinda of arguments to be made both for and against Recruiter, but I wasn't seeing the kind of arguments that I would have expected, is all.

On the whole, however, this was a very fair and balanced treatment (despite any number of disagreements), and I was happy to read it. Congratulations on a job well done.

Thanks for the response! I just don't see Recruiter being busted if you're being fair and playing an aggro deck with it. You get Warchief the next turn, then Ringleader into Piledriver the next, sure, but that just screams "fair" to me.

I might devote an entire article to Land Tax; I'm still thinking about it and why it should be unbanned, and I didn't want to talk about unbanning it twice : )

I have a big problem with the cards that are on the list because they're hypothetically "broken" but haven't been proven so. Hurkyl's Recall was the biggest offender in Vintage for this. The theory was you would replay your Moxes and Mana Vault and make a lot of mana, but it never happened. Hurkyl's was restricted, IIRC, when Vault and Crypt also got the nix, which solved the problem anyway. There it sat, on the B&R list, for years under the hypothetical "well it can generate a ton of mana" without any proof! Heck, Doomsday got on the Vintage list because of a hoax perpetrated by The Dojo! I'd rather we get a few cards over time, like Dream Halls, that we can play around with and see if they're broken and have them rebanned later. I'd like to see these supposedly too-good cards actually prove they're too good!

Mordel

06-09-2009, 07:16 PM

Land tax really seems like a very antiquated ban to me. It seems like a throwback to the days when a scroll rack, tax and Z.orb on the table were br00tality incarnate. I see dream halls combining well with prohibitively costed five colour enchantments and creatures...they all have blue in them after all, which is the colour of awesome and then there is black, which is the colour of protecting your awesome. It would be interesting to see if the five mana cost served as much of a drawback for D.Halls.

Land tax seems like the safest possible unban that may see play to me. It would be absolutely rad in IBA's deck if you ask me. The old scroll rack engine seems a bit clunky to me though.

With all of the unbannings and stuff, a big legacy event is farther off than a month if I am not mistaken, so even if they fuck up with somehing, they can always slap a ban on the bitch again. The only thing about a test unban is that it is probably like a submission of weakness for the R&D team because they have this aura of omnipotence that they have cultivated in the last few years(imo of course) and even an unbanning with even a fraction of the impact of flash seems like something like something that they may be a bit averse to...even if it is one of the red-headed stepchildren formats.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-09-2009, 07:19 PM

Land Tax is significantly weaker than Scrying Sheets. I wouldn't play it.

kicks_422

06-09-2009, 07:46 PM

Oh, man. If Gush is unbanned, Doomsday is going to be a blast to play.

Captain_Morgan

06-09-2009, 08:10 PM

Oath of Druids. I miss Oath of Druids in a creature based format. Considering the front loading of Goyf and Naught, Oath would be an interesting twist to the format I think.

hi-val

06-09-2009, 08:17 PM

Oath is interesting, for sure. I would predict a lot of Tidespout Tyranny! It was a card that Old Extended could handle and I think Legacy can to an extent as well. That said, it's a 1G Tinker for any bonkers creature that gets printed in the future. Protean Hulk is a nonbo with it, but there could be something that has better interactions (Sundering Titan and Cabal Therapy, maybe?). I hadn't considered what it would do to Goyf-style decks, that's really interesting to think about!

aTn

06-09-2009, 08:23 PM

Mordel

06-09-2009, 08:28 PM

If they brought oath back, I would so rep old school 5c counter-oath for nostalgia purposes. That deck was dope.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-09-2009, 08:40 PM

Progenitus

=

No Oath

Pinder

06-09-2009, 09:03 PM

Progenitus

=

No Oath

Also, Progenitus + Dream Halls seems scary, in theory at least. But I guess Dreams Halls does cost 5, and Counterspells do exist.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-09-2009, 09:16 PM

It's not that scary considering Natural Order cost only one less mana.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-09-2009, 09:33 PM

Natural Order costs 2GG, or Iwamori. Oath costs 1G, or Tarmogoyf.

Pinder

06-09-2009, 09:35 PM

Natural Order costs 2GG, or Iwamori. Oath costs 1G, or Tarmogoyf.

I think he was more talking about how Dream Halls + Progenitus isn't that scary, because we already have Natural Order + Progenitus, and that costs a whole mana less and still isn't scary.

Michael Keller

06-09-2009, 09:47 PM

One of the main reasons all of the original "1.5 Power" was cleared from the format was because of the price tags attached to those cards to entice new players to try a less degenerate, wide-open format out.

Here is a link for reference to the original announcement of the bannings of 20SEP2004 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/announce/dci20040901a) so you can read some explanations as to perhaps why they they took cards away and can draw your own conclusions as to perhaps why they might bring some of those cards back.

The question is: Would taking cards like Illusionary Mask, Land Tax, etc. off the banned and restricted list jack the prices back up on those cards, or would they remain (relatively) the same? You've got cards like Imperial Recruiter and Grim Tutor - both highly playable - in the format and worth indefinitely over US$100.00. They are very much sought after, just like their predecessors, yet they haven't left the format since.

I'm not trying to compare the older, pricey 1.5 cards to newer (and currently legal) expensive cards intentionally, I'm just trying to use a rationale that perhaps maybe those cards that are worth a little bit more cash doesn't mean one guy in a given area is going to show up and dominate a meta-game with his Mask/Nought deck, because the format has had time to develop itself in the last five years. There have been many expansions and many answers printed since those changes in September of 2004 and the time is right to make a change that will probably have no noticeable impact on the format anyways. Some of the cards on that banned list have never made it into Legacy, like Mind Twist.

There was also a time Feldon's Cane was banned in Legacy (previously 1.5) until 1999. Goes to show you how much things can change.

Mordel

06-09-2009, 11:23 PM

I don't think wizards priced the cards to be prohibitive because I don't think they directly control the secondary market...

Edit: One thing about the whole Dream Halls versus Natural Order thing is that while Natural Order requires a list with green and also a creature in play to sac, Dream Halls only requires a card of Progenitus' colour(s). You could have a deck that is basically MUC and it only needs to control the game for three turns after landing Progenitus. I am not saying that's better or worse...just saying that a MUC deck that runs a basically invincible 10/10 is a bit more scary to me and my arsenal of decks than a somewhat janky UGw CB deck.

rufus

06-09-2009, 11:51 PM

Even without food chain, Turn 1 Lackey, Turn 2 Recruiter/Matron -> Recruiter can lead to a Turn 3 combo finish with Ringleader -> Skirk Prospector, Warchief, Mogg War Marshal, Ringleader -> ... Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter. With Food Chain/Prospector and acceleration there's probably a decent number of turn 2 finishes available on good draws.

Illusionary Mask will also, theoretically, allow a player to abuse morph (Fathom Seer, Voidmage Apprentice?, Riptide Survivor) and comes into play with stuff like, Roc Hatchling, Chainbreaker, The Eventide Hatchling cycle, Wooly Razorback (none of this looks interesting to me...). There's also stifle-like interaction with Vanishing and Echo.

Dream Halls -> ...Progenitus + Prismatic Omen + Coalition Victory is cute, but I doubt it's worthwhile.

Michael Keller

06-09-2009, 11:52 PM

I don't think wizards priced the cards to be prohibitive because I don't think they directly control the secondary market...

Wizards had nothing to do with the price of those cards which subsequently became banned. They had all sky-rocketed in value because of how good they were and at the zenith of their popularity were sent packing.

They basically cleared the slate and left the format open for interpretation. There is no reason to believe any of the possibilities everyone listed will create problems if they were to be reinstated, but only those cards mentioned. The others deserve to to stay on that list, and for good reason.

Skeggi

06-10-2009, 03:05 AM

I'm a bit conservative when it comes to the B(/R) list for Legacy. Sure there may be cards on it that can be unbanned, but the format at the moment is healthy. Why fix what isn't broke? I'd be relieved if there were no changes for Legacy.

Vintage is what needs to be fixed. Let them focus on that.

etrigan

06-10-2009, 03:54 AM

emidln

06-10-2009, 11:22 AM

If you unban Oath of Druids, you would have to unban Skull Clamp too. That's the only chance aggro decks would have of competing, and would still shoehorn aggro decks into running mostly low toughness creatures. Your new metagame would be Oath threshold, Clamp aggro and Storm combo. This is not healthy.

Storm combo would sb oath because, really, why not? It costs playing 4 lands that tap for any mana you want in your maindeck with no draw back and 6 sb slots. Sign me up.

Nihil Credo

06-10-2009, 04:11 PM

Earthcraft - Squirrel Nest is still the best combo out there, right? If so, it's safe.

Dream Halls - Unplayable.

Grim Monolith - Barely playable.

Worldgorger Dragon - Safe, unless the DCI has a problem with forcing game draws.

Black Vise - No. It wouldn't wreck the format, but it would make it worse. Right now it's still possible to play good control decks that don't rely on Counterbalance/Top, and I don't think it's a good trade to sacrifice that for a moderate power bump to most aggro decks out there, since they are pretty good already.

Frantic Search - I'd be happy if it brought back Solidarity, but I suspect it might do something else not as enjoyable. Should ask the Storm boards to brainstorm over this card and see if it would push some other list over the edge.

Goblin Recruiter - Double No. To quote Doug: "The biggest danger is that it would push out other aggro decks from playability, but I could see a deck like Merfolk using Daze (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Daze) and Force of Will to effectively combat the combo." Well, either of those outcomes sounds absolutely awful to me, as we lose a chunk of the format for zero gain, since the one deck that could play this is already near the top of the format.

Illusionary Mask - Sure. It can go play with Gauntlet of Might and the other expensive crappy cards.

Gush - NO. I agree that it's comparable to Brainstorm, but here's the difference: Brainstorm drags you back into the game when you have a shit hand, but it doesn't push you over the edge if you already have good cards available. Gush would just plain make this format worse.

Hermit Druid - Probably OK. I used to be worried about this guy when Cephalid Breakfast was good, since Druid.dec is significantly better, but Breakfast has been eating every hate pie in the format so a slightly faster more resilient version is unlikely to be a nuisance, and it's certainly hate-able out if it does become one.

Metalworker - Sure. I'd love it to see more Ancient Tombs in the format.

FoolofaTook

06-10-2009, 04:20 PM

One of the main reasons all of the original "1.5 Power" was cleared from the format was because of the price tags attached to those cards to entice new players to try a less degenerate, wide-open format out.

The original ban on power cards, which was actually the split into separate Type I and Type II formats, was designed to sell cards pure and simple. WotC had already declared that they were not going to reprint many of the power cards from Alpha, Beta and Unlimited and that multi-lands were on the way out after Revised. That left them with the conundrum of how to sell a product that by definition would not include many of the best cards ever printed. The answer was to remove those cards from competition by creating another format in which they were not legal. The rotating Standard blocs were the next obvious step in this progression designed purely to sell cards.

Structured Magic competition has always been about money first for WotC and actual competition second.

DrJones

06-10-2009, 04:31 PM

Earthcraft - Squirrel Nest is still the best combo out there, right? If so, it's safe.There's also the combo of Overgrowth/Wild growth + token producers like Ant Queen, but I would like to point out that Earthcraft is by itself pretty crazy acceleration. The best combo with Earthcraft I would say is Earthcraft + Skullclamp, but that belongs to vintage. I would be happy with Earthcraft because is so easy to abuse is not even funny. :laugh:

Michael Keller

06-10-2009, 04:39 PM

The original ban on power cards, which was actually the split into separate Type I and Type II formats, was designed to sell cards pure and simple. WotC had already declared that they were not going to reprint many of the power cards from Alpha, Beta and Unlimited and that multi-lands were on the way out after Revised. That left them with the conundrum of how to sell a product that by definition would not include many of the best cards ever printed. The answer was to remove those cards from competition by creating another format in which they were not legal. The rotating Standard blocs were the next obvious step in this progression designed purely to sell cards.

Structured Magic competition has always been about money first for WotC and actual competition second.

I distinctly remember the discussion on the boards when this all went down and I've read Aaron Forsythe's article (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30) numerous times. Wizards banned those cards for several major reasons:

1.) Those cards found their way into decks that were completely dominating newer players who didn't or couldn't stand a chance because of how "un-fair" those cards were to play against. To them, there was no point in trying to play a game for which they had no chance to play anyways.

Second...

2.) The price tag. Those cards were so expensive that for a newer player to emulate what other people were playing would cost hundreds of dollars to compete. They realized this was a marketing nightmare that was brewing beneath their feet: A literal "turn-off" for players who became unwilling to accept the fact they had to shell out that kind of money to "play a game".

As for "structured Magic"; competition and money go hand in hand. Without Standard or Limited players yearning to match the feats of the better players in their area, there would be less an inclination to buy packs and singles on a more regular basis as these are the formats they consider to be most economically beneficial. The facilitation of competition creates buying power. In the words of Forsythe himself:

"We tried to strike the fine balance between accessibility and, well, balance of play".

Pretty self-explanatory stuff here, folks. Money first? Always. But don't think these people get paid for free; they know exactly what they are doing when it comes to money. That's why Magic is still in existence and just as strong as it's ever been.

Aggro_zombies

06-10-2009, 08:04 PM

The complaints about Frantic Search are probably just knee-jerk reactions. What does that card fit in, other than Solidarity? And when was the last time that deck was good, or even playable?

Gush, on the other hand, should have had more said about it. Of all the cards presented in that section, it's probably the most iffy. Even in the absence of Moxen, Fastbond, and Merchant Scroll shenanigans, it has a pretty obvious home in Tempo/Canadian Threshold as a way to refuel in the mid game, so that you can make one last push for the finish line while you're still in control. That deck tends to lose during that time frame because it's a very delicate period where you're out of tempo cards and are therefore forced to race your opponent's recovery. Gush could conceivably keep you in control for another turn or two, which is all you need to keep a defending Tarmogoyf off the table and seal the game. Whether or not it actually ends up pushing this deck over the top remains to be seen.

It's not going in Solidarity or MUC. The loss of mana is just way too much.

The really sticky issue is how much of an impact it would make in Counterbalance Threshold. That deck is arguably the best in the format right now, and Gush (if it proves worthwhile) could certainly push it over the top. The question is, will it? It's certainly a strong draw spell with Counter-Top already in play, but it's not clear to me that it's necessarily better than Dark Confidant if you're playing black, because Bob is repeatable, cheaper, able to swing and block, and doesn't set you back on mana. The issue of mana availability is actually relevant to Counterbalance decks because even after they stick their lock, they want the mana to be able to do stuff on their own turn and still activate Top once or twice on their opponent's turn, which means three mana at least, preferably four or more if you're running things like Shackles and Sower.

It's certainly not going to be as powerful as it was during its brief return stint in Vintage due to the lack of Fastbond, so the loss of mana is a very real drawback for many decks that would consider running it. I don't think Counterbalance decks can necessarily handle that kind of tempo loss until after they land the lock, and at that point, winning is often just an academic exercise. However, it really is something that would need to be tested, as there's a fine line between being merely very good and being outright ridiculous, and I think this card straddles that line more than any other discussed in the article.

matelml

06-10-2009, 10:35 PM

@Aggro_zombies: You are forgetting Tendrils combo. In a deck that doesn't mind losing lands in play when they are tapped anyway, drawing 2 cards for 0 mana is just absolutely busted.

Mordel

06-10-2009, 10:51 PM

Gush could also make Coatl Miracle Grow a lot better...folks should maybe steer away from pointing out the same thing over and over about how it would be good in AdN/DDFT-type decks.

Aggro_zombies

06-10-2009, 11:17 PM

@Aggro_zombies: You are forgetting Tendrils combo. In a deck that doesn't mind losing lands in play when they are tapped anyway, drawing 2 cards for 0 mana is just absolutely busted.
The only Tendrils combo deck that would have enough Islands in it to do that would be ANT, and Gush doesn't play too well with that deck's signature draw engine. Gush in a Tendrils deck is basically worse in almost all cases than Ad Nauseum.

Forbiddian

06-11-2009, 01:26 AM

The only Tendrils combo deck that would have enough Islands in it to do that would be ANT, and Gush doesn't play too well with that deck's signature draw engine. Gush in a Tendrils deck is basically worse in almost all cases than Ad Nauseum.

Gush in hand + Doomsday is pretty scary off the top of my head.

But maybe Gush itself won't be any specific straw that breaks any specific camel's back, but it pretty much guides the format in a direction toward more Aggro/Control and Combo, and I can't imagine who would want that.

Solidarity placed T4 in that recent gimmick tournament. Not that any one tournament result proves a deck's viability, but Solidarity held up very well. Saying it's not viable and can't make a comeback even with Frantic Search is just lazy.

Although TBH, I don't know if Frantic Search would make it crazy. Solidarity seems a lot slower than ANT, and Frantic Search would only help it after it already resolved a High Tide. Still, it functions in the two roles Solidarity needs most -- in one card. I'm also a bit wary about Bubbling Muck variants, which are desperate for untap and filtration.

conboy31

06-11-2009, 03:52 AM

I thought the article was alright. I enjoy reading perspectives of the b/r list. That said, I disagree with the gob recruiter and maybe frantic.

I am curious as to how Gush would fit into combo. I have played some Tes, DD tendr, etc. However, balancing Gush and Ad Naus might be more tricky than anticipated. Gush would bring a new level to the deck while at the same time handicapping the easiest win of 5 mana -> draw 10+ and play stuff. I'd imagine the right balance or direction would take over and a post gush would be better than a pre gush. What would it look like though...

(nameless one)

06-11-2009, 11:33 AM

as much as i like my goblins, wouldnt goblins be broken in Legacy with the introduction of Goblin Recruiter? especially with Food Chain...

emidln

06-11-2009, 11:53 AM

My Doomsday lists suddenly cut Ad Nauseam (and now never kill themselves), go up to 3 Island, play 4 Gush, I evaluate Merchant Scroll and Force of Will, and get to go off with 3-5 mana (including casting Doosmday) and somewhere between no cards in hand and 2 cards in hand depending on my mana situation. Please do this.

Tilde

06-11-2009, 04:47 PM

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that Gush, for lack of a better word, is good. Gush is right, Gush works. Gush clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Gush, in all of its forms; Gush for counters, for mana, for combo pieces, has marked the upward surge of mankind. And Gush, you mark my words, will not only save the Legacy format, but that other malfunctioning corporation called Magic the Gathering. Thank you very much.

voltron00x

06-11-2009, 07:26 PM

TsumiBand

06-13-2009, 05:06 PM

BreathWeapon

06-13-2009, 09:03 PM

IS there some dumbass combo with Skullclamp floating around that would actually harm the format? It seems like it'd be quite the trinket these days as it gets under CB and lets dumb aggro trade dorks for cards. Attach Clamp to Qasali Pridemage, beat for 4, sac QPM to kill your CB and draw two cards? Technology!

Or is Kobolds way better than I give it credit for and this is a terrible idea?

I agree, Skullclamp puts Affinity and Tribal on-par with Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance based aggro-control, non-blue creature based aggro decks could use a Skullclamp face lift to help push back the tide of blue in the format.

That and Skullclamp + Bitterblossom = uber combo

Edit: The article underrates Hermit Druid, it's better in Cephalid Breakfast as Cephalid Illusionist and Nomad En-Kor in one card than it is in Dredge, 1 card combos need to be avoided IMO.

Aggro_zombies

06-14-2009, 03:34 AM

Edit: The article underrates Hermit Druid, it's better in Cephalid Breakfast as Cephalid Illusionist and Nomad En-Kor in one card than it is in Dredge, 1 card combos need to be avoided IMO.
That still doesn't change the fact that it's a 1/1 for two mana that has a tap ability but no haste. It also doesn't do anything to help Breakfast's biggest weaknesses, which were losing to graveyard hate and losing to Pithing Needle or other cards targeting the early parts of the combo.

Skullclamp is interesting but probably not tremendously overpowered. It might go in Thresh as a Trinket Mage target to make Goyf combat more interesting. Actually, I'm pretty sure it would end up in everything but control and Tendrils combo, which would make it only slightly less ubiquitous than Tarmogoyf and blue.

Blitzbold

06-14-2009, 03:48 AM

Skullclamp is in fact an interesting suggestion and one I didn't think about until now. Decks like Affinity would become a lot better, as would other aggro-based strategies. Even some comboesque decks would emerge - Kobolds are intuitive, but there are others for sure - but it remains to be seen whether it would be too strong. Testing would be needed to find this out, e.g. Affinity-Clamp, Elves with Clamp, Kobolds, Clamp as a Trinket Mage target and so on. I can imagine being it quite strong, but probably not as format-defining as it once was in Standard and Extended some years ago since Legacy contains much more efficient ways to effectively stop it.

BreathWeapon

06-14-2009, 03:57 AM

That still doesn't change the fact that it's a 1/1 for two mana that has a tap ability but no haste. It also doesn't do anything to help Breakfast's biggest weaknesses, which were losing to graveyard hate and losing to Pithing Needle or other cards targeting the early parts of the combo.

Skullclamp is interesting but probably not tremendously overpowered. It might go in Thresh as a Trinket Mage target to make Goyf combat more interesting. Actually, I'm pretty sure it would end up in everything but control and Tendrils combo, which would make it only slightly less ubiquitous than Tarmogoyf and blue.

But it more or less invalidates every other 2 card combo in Legacy; the card is too efficient and too fast even with its vulnerability to removal, giving Breakfast 4 more cards for disruption/removal definitely does do something to address those weaknesses.

Edit: Regardless of whether or not Skull Clamp would be just as ubiquitous as Tarmogoyf, at least there'd be greater diversity in the format even if there's less diversity in aggro decks. I mean, I don't really care if every Tribal, Zoo and Affinity deck starts with 4xSkull Clamp if that's what it takes to drop aggro-control a notch.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-14-2009, 04:18 AM

Skullclamp is fundamentally a terrible card. When it comes down, generally one of two things will happen;

1) You'll crush the opponent with overwhelming card advantage.

2) You'll die to something faster than your Skullclamp deck that you couldn't really deal with.

It pretty much puts the seal on any hope of interactivity in a game, is the thing. No, it's not "broken" in the sense that it doesn't win that fast, and it sucks in combo, but it pretty much means that the game's about done one way or another, unless it's dealt with; and it was always far more effective to deal with Skullclamp by killing the person controlling it than to expend resources attacking a one mana artifact.

Also, it would make Mono-White Control busted. True story.

Mother fuckers probably think I'm joking.

BreathWeapon

06-14-2009, 06:04 AM

paK0

06-14-2009, 07:32 AM

*Thumps up for Counterbalance ban*

Blitzbold

06-14-2009, 08:11 AM

*Thumps up for Counterbalance ban*

Now this one seems absolutely unlikely. If any of the CB / Top 'combo' gets the axe it would be Divining Top, probably with the same reasoning as in Extended: rounds are taking too long. However, considering how much interest WotC has in Legacy combined with all the voices of the Pro's after the most recent GP I don't think that any one of this two will be touched.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-14-2009, 05:18 PM

You could use that same logic for Counterbalance, so either unban Skullclamp or ban Counterbalance? Seriously, 99% of Magic decks try to achieve strategic non-interaction, I don't see Skull Clamp being worse than Counterbalance, Storm or Dredge for that matter.

Counterbalance only achieves this effect if your deck has a stacked mana curve. As a metagame presence, Counterbalance is healthy because it encourages people to run more diverse mana curves than they would otherwise. Hell, we decided for Quinn that the optimal sideboard card was Ray of fucking Distortion. When was the last time you saw that played?

And the difference between Dredge/Storm and Skullclamp is that the last requires only four slots to make it work, and it's more effective at ending interaction. The cascade of card advantage Skullclamp provides is impossible to counter directly; you pretty much have to kill the controller directly at that point.

Clark Kant

06-15-2009, 01:49 AM

I just don't understand why the author ignored the most talked about candidate for unbanning, Land Tax.

Also, there's other cards like Entomb that atleast warranted a mention.

BreathWeapon

06-15-2009, 04:51 AM

Counterbalance only achieves this effect if your deck has a stacked mana curve. As a metagame presence, Counterbalance is healthy because it encourages people to run more diverse mana curves than they would otherwise. Hell, we decided for Quinn that the optimal sideboard card was Ray of fucking Distortion. When was the last time you saw that played?

And the difference between Dredge/Storm and Skullclamp is that the last requires only four slots to make it work, and it's more effective at ending interaction. The cascade of card advantage Skullclamp provides is impossible to counter directly; you pretty much have to kill the controller directly at that point.

Agree to disagree, Counterbalance is not healthy for the metagame and it doesn't encourage mana curves above 3 (especially when those 3cc cards only purpose is to remove Counterbalance). There are no mid-range aggro decks or non-Counterbalance control decks in the format right now, it's just a bunch of low CC aggro-control decks fighting over the lock.

Honestly, Skull Clamp seems fair compared to Balance/Top, at least it doesn't have Force of Will, Daze and Spellsnare backing it up.

Arctic_Slicer

06-15-2009, 06:11 AM

Unbanning Skullclamp would totally redefine the metagame and with decks being built to abuse the card advantage this card produces. The card would probably see as much or more play than Tarmogoyf sees currently and isn't something that could be considered healthy for the format.

sucks in combo

I want to point out that Skullclamp is very powerful in Elf Combo and is one of the key cards for the Vintage Elf Lists. Unbanning Skullclamp would probably make Elves! one of the best decks in the format overnight and is definitely another thing that should be considered before lifting the ban on Skullclamp.

rufus

06-15-2009, 09:00 AM

Edit: The article underrates Hermit Druid, it's better in Cephalid Breakfast as Cephalid Illusionist and Nomad En-Kor in one card than it is in Dredge, 1 card combos need to be avoided IMO.

With Reveillark loops, it may even be possible to Summoner's Pact him, and then combo out on the following upkeep before the cost comes due.

More generally speaking, the article doesn't really show a whole lot of imagination regarding what the various cards are capable of. Goblin Recruiter can enable Kiki-Jiki+Lightning Crafter combos in stupid ways. Earthcraft isn't discussed in the context of Nettle Sentinel or {Q} abilities. There's no discussion of the potential of Illusionary Mask to access Morph abilities which are all (when you turn this creature face-up). Frantic Search without mentioning Madness/Coatl/Psychatog.

DrJones

06-15-2009, 09:16 AM

I wouldn't take the article seriously because it suggests things like unbanning Gush, Frantic search and Windfall. :)

hi-val

06-15-2009, 05:36 PM

I just don't understand why the author ignored the most talked about candidate for unbanning, Land Tax.

Also, there's other cards like Entomb that atleast warranted a mention.

I might devote an entire article to Land Tax; I'm still thinking about it and why it should be unbanned, and I didn't want to talk about unbanning it twice : )

I don't see [WGD] overpowering without Entomb (which should stay firmly where it is (no, not for what you're thinking of) (think Auriok Salvagers)).

I wouldn't take the article seriously because it suggests things like unbanning Gush, Frantic search and Windfall. :)

Okay, I made some arguments about the cards. Can you at least do the same? I want to at least know where you're coming from : )

More generally speaking, the article doesn't really show a whole lot of imagination regarding what the various cards are capable of. Goblin Recruiter can enable Kiki-Jiki+Lightning Crafter combos in stupid ways. Earthcraft isn't discussed in the context of Nettle Sentinel or {Q} abilities. There's no discussion of the potential of Illusionary Mask to access Morph abilities which are all (when you turn this creature face-up). Frantic Search without mentioning Madness/Coatl/Psychatog.

None of these are particularly scary. Goblin Recruiter for Kiki Jiki and Lightning Crafter asks for 5RRRR past the Recruiter and two draw steps! That's really, really fair! Illusionary Mask can turn over Voidmage Apprentice and Skinthinner and that's about it; Fathom Seer is probably not even good enough to make the cut. In my article, I talked about the most likely uses of the cards, would they be unrestricted. Certainly, Earthcraft interacts favorably with Gilder Bairn + Darksteel Reactor, but that's not going to be "broken" by any means.

Frantic Search with Tog and Coatl and Madness is also not going to be broken. Those cards/decks work a lot better with Brainstorm (yes, even Madness does!).

Hermit Druid is probably the most dangerous card on the list, which is why I make sure to put it in my "I am less sure of these" category. I think the format could handle it, since every color has a way of beating it or winning when it's on the table. I don't know if we should ask the format to do that, though.

LostButSeeking

06-16-2009, 07:39 PM

There are no . . . non-Counterbalance control decks in the format right now,

UWx Landstill would like a word with you. There are some people who try to shoehorn countertop into the deck, but Landstill likes 4 mana spells (and Engineered Explosives recursion) too much to use countertop.

Amon Amarth

06-16-2009, 08:18 PM

The more I think about it the more I agree with all the chosen cards... well almost.

For example I was way freaked out about Black Vise I mean shit this thing was nuts back in the day! However, most decks don't really have a ton of cards in hand, even control decks don't have more than 3-4 cards in hand most of the time. It's certainly not a free Lightning Bolt every turn. It's fine.

I'd like to see Frantic Search come back. It would be nice to see High Tide again. That is probably the best application for the card that I can think of. Third turn kills are fine.

I don't think FCG is going to be dominating with Goblin Recruiter. The combo still requires quite a bit of setup and the deck doesn't have any disruption/protection maindeck to protect the combo either.

I could see why Mask would stay on if only for monetary reasons. It doesn't seem particularly more powerful than Stifle or Trickbind. Masknought would be good, probably. I don't think black disruption is better than FoW + Counterbalance though.

Gush... eeek. Something inside urges me to run away screaming. It's fairest use involves powering up Gro based decks. I'm sure free card drawing could be broken somewhere. I bet some of our Legacy Combo aficionados would love to get their hands on this card. Someone needs to test this. I'm not creative enough :P

Hermit Druid, meh. Unban it. Dies to GY removal, spot removal, and mean looks. Incredibly fragile. Pretty much every deck runs some combination of creature removal or GY hate. The noes that don't are decks that kill as fast or faster than a Druid deck with the ability to fight through hate much more effectively.

I might be worried about Metalworker plus Grim Monolith. Unlike Hermit Druid, if Metalworker dies, MUD doesn't fall apart. It's just another mana accelerator in a deck full of mana acceleration. That being said, would MUD be too powerful in the current metagame... I don't know. It operates on a completely different paradigm than most decks currently with the major exception being Goblins and perhaps Landstill. The current metagame isn't prepared to handle something like that. I've never gotten to play with Worker so maybe I'm biased. :D

Good article Doug!

chokin

06-16-2009, 10:11 PM

I'll throw in my .02:

Earthcraft - With Squirrel Nest, it's 1GGG plus a turn to win. Kinda like Painter is a total of 6 mana plus a turn. Earthcraft would be limited to green decks however. I wouldn't care if this was unbanned.

Dream Halls - Not sure how I feel. Progenitus could be a MUC finisher with this card unbanned. Potentially dangerous. I'd be wary.

Grim Monolith - Even more mana for Stax or an infinite mana combo. I don't know how broken this would be.

WGD - With the many forms of hate this loses to, I'd say this is one of the safest cards to unban.

Black Vise - I'd so play this in a Trinisphere deck or against control decks. Kinda like Monolith, I don't know how I feel about this.

Frantic Search - Anything to bring back Solidarity, please. Untap plus card draw for cheap.

Goblin Recruiter - Pushes Goblins over the edge for an aggro deck. Matron sets up the win and there isn't much aggro could do to fight this off. I'd play Goblins all the time with this reprint.

Illusionary Mask - No. At least with Stifle/Trickbind and Petey (PD) you need to have both to play him. He'll dodge counter magic and 3Sphere this way. Plus you can throw this piece down before finding Petey.

Gush - Sick card. I love free spells. It'd add strength to CBTop decks and MUC. Not sure if it's needed. Adds a ton of power to Doomsday decks.

Hermit Druid - Maybe. It does what Ichorid wants, which is to dump the library into the graveyard.

Metalworker - More busted than Grim Monolith. A heavy artifact Stax deck could easily bust out multiple lock pieces in one shot. I'd be ok if they made it into a "reprint" on an instant or sorcery.

In short, bring back old combo, be wary of most other things.

Jak

06-17-2009, 01:51 AM

The only really logical thing I can think of would be to unban something not blue or that would be splashed into blue rather easily.

xTrainx

06-17-2009, 04:12 PM

Unban Frantic Search...lol.
Solidarity says I like turn 2 win.
Land, Land, High Tide, Reset, Search...more high tides impulse more resetting bullshit. GG.

Aggro_zombies

06-17-2009, 05:05 PM

Unban Frantic Search...lol.
Solidarity says I like turn 2 win.
Land, Land, High Tide, Reset, Search...more high tides impulse more resetting bullshit. GG.
Aside from the fact that this scenario is really unrealistic, there's also the fact that Search is actually nets you a loss of cards - the draw and discard part is dead even, but the spell itself leaves your hand. Frantic Search isn't really very good, or even playable, unless you have a fuller hand with at least one land in it. Otherwise, you're getting an untap effect (good) in exchange for cards in hand, which makes it worse at that job than Reset or Turnabout. Of course, you could make the argument that you could draw into something like Meditate and completely negate the card disadvantage.

It's just that my experiences with it in "casual" storm decks seem to indicate that the loss of cards is a big factor. Granted, these were Tendrils decks, and they didn't run High Tide, but I still have a hard time believing that Solidarity would want this for anything other than an unconditional, instant-speed untap.

xTrainx

06-17-2009, 06:00 PM

Aside from the fact that this scenario is really unrealistic, there's also the fact that Search is actually nets you a loss of cards - the draw and discard part is dead even, but the spell itself leaves your hand. Frantic Search isn't really very good, or even playable, unless you have a fuller hand with at least one land in it. Otherwise, you're getting an untap effect (good) in exchange for cards in hand, which makes it worse at that job than Reset or Turnabout. Of course, you could make the argument that you could draw into something like Meditate and completely negate the card disadvantage.

It's just that my experiences with it in "casual" storm decks seem to indicate that the loss of cards is a big factor. Granted, these were Tendrils decks, and they didn't run High Tide, but I still have a hard time believing that Solidarity would want this for anything other than an unconditional, instant-speed untap.

Frantic Search > Turnabout.
I admit that the scenario is unrealistic, but in Solidarity even filtering through two cards is incredible. Lets say you have a High Tide down, and you just Brainstormed. Stick two lands on the top, and then chuck em to Frantic. You just reset, and now you can drop some more draw power. It's an incredible card if you use it in the right deck.
If you happen to be running Accumulated Knowledge(I love this one), it can drop them out, so your next one supplies you with more than enough CA to make it worth it. Its not an incredible card elsewhere, but in Solidarity it's incredible.

Surging Chaos

06-17-2009, 06:40 PM

I thought there was some chatter about wanting to unban Entomb, but I am definately against banning Entomb.

The Entombs in my collection somewhere would immediately get sleeved into my Ichorid deck.

Entomb a GGT at end step.
Entomb a Narcomoeba at instant speed.
Entomb a Bridge.
Entomb a DR or FKZ to get the immediate combo kill if you don't have it, or Entomb for your Eternal Witness/Cephalid Sage to continue dredging your deck.

For one mana, being able to further increase the consistency of a fast deck like Ichorid at instant speed is not a good idea to do. Shit, a tutor for one mana at instant speed that has a "drawback" of being placed in the graveyard really doesn't sit well with me when other decks can obviously abuse it as well.

Michael Keller

06-17-2009, 08:35 PM

Or, you know: Swamp, Ritual/Chrome Mox, Entomb, Reanimate anything seems decent I suppose.

DrJones

06-17-2009, 09:26 PM

The combo is dark ritual, entomb to Nicol Bolas, and then Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance.

matelml

06-18-2009, 06:29 AM

Aside from the fact that this scenario is really unrealistic, there's also the fact that Search is actually nets you a loss of cards - the draw and discard part is dead even, but the spell itself leaves your hand. Frantic Search isn't really very good, or even playable, unless you have a fuller hand with at least one land in it. Otherwise, you're getting an untap effect (good) in exchange for cards in hand, which makes it worse at that job than Reset or Turnabout. Of course, you could make the argument that you could draw into something like Meditate and completely negate the card disadvantage.

It's just that my experiences with it in "casual" storm decks seem to indicate that the loss of cards is a big factor. Granted, these were Tendrils decks, and they didn't run High Tide, but I still have a hard time believing that Solidarity would want this for anything other than an unconditional, instant-speed untap.

You seem to miss that Reset, Turnabout, High Tide or even Dark Ritual are all carddisadvantage. They make mana (or untap) in return for a card. This is the same case with Frantic Search. It just also filters 2 cards whcih is a strict advantage, since in the worst case it's just read "mill 2 cards".

GreenOne

06-18-2009, 07:04 AM

Even without food chain, Turn 1 Lackey, Turn 2 Recruiter/Matron -> Recruiter can lead to a Turn 3 combo finish with Ringleader -> Skirk Prospector, Warchief, Mogg War Marshal, Ringleader -> ... Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter. With Food Chain/Prospector and acceleration there's probably a decent number of turn 2 finishes available on good draws.
The deck is already capable of turn 3 wins when lackey is connecting, and you have to fill your deck with some chaff to make it work (kiki, crafter, war marshal, prospector). I don't see this as the reason it should remain banned.

The fact is that Goblins is already a quite powerful deck on its own, giving it other tools to work with is scary. Sure, Recruiter is going to be used in conjunction with Food chain to make insta-wins in some versions, but it will be played anyway for its raw power of being matron 5-8, filling the 2cc slot, making huge card advantage in the late game thanks to ringleader (when you have quite a lot of lands in play, and you will not draw lands anymore).