R/W/B Aggro

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Inspired by the vintage hide/seek beat down approach I though about a legacy beat down deck trying to find answers against almost any thread. Here is the list I found strongest after some testing.


// Lands
1 [B] Plains (2)
1 [B] Swamp (1)
1 [B] Mountain (3)
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [B] Badlands
2 [B] Plateau
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Swamp (2)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [UL] Mother of Runes

// Spells
3 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [M10] Harm's Way
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
There is some card quality missing, I thing about switching lightning bolt vs magma jet but the 1 dmg advantage of bolt over Jet helped me out in a lot of situations + you can play the bolt turn 3 and still drop a creature for 2 mana. What do you think about the mana base? I think I play too many nonbasics, back to basics really hurts. But on the other hand you need much colored mana.
SB: This deck has some problems with straight aggro decks, that's what perish is good for. Dystopia is mainly vs enchantress because a friend of mine plays it alot and I keep loosing against it :smile: . This deck could still use some sb vs chalice and trinisphere.

Thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions :smile:

-- Spock

[edit]Latest Build: 27.10.09

[badjuju]

I made a similar post (check these forums for Borzhov Aggro) a short while back, and testing has shown that the archetype isn't strong enough for the current meta. I got rolled over and over again by Goyf Sligh and Zoo, both of which are becoming popular choices these days.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Did you try SB 4 perish?
[edit]Playing 4 grunts maindeck also helps a lot vs goyf and tombstalker

[puppektion]

Dystopia seems a little... well, counter intuitive when you do have 12 md white creatures.

And really, 7 SB slots to kill green? Don't you think that's a little overdoing it?

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Hmm... you have a point :cool:
I dropped dystopia, 3 sb cards vs chalice/trinisphere would be nice, do you know any?

[TheCramp]

shattering spree. Mogg should go. I would consider Mother of Runes as a 1 drop. -1 scroll +1 jitte. she gets all freaky pushing your equipped guys threw. I see very little reason why you would not be running vindicate, with your wastelands you could go into LD mode in games they get screwed. I would play they over hedge mage, who just goes dead vs. Zoo, Ichorid, tempo thresh etc. your guys don't end it fast enough for it to be clunky. I think you need some kind of end game bomb for the same reason. Exalted Angel perhaps. -4 mog -1 grunt +3 Mother of Runes +2 E. Angel? If I were testing it I would at least try something like that. the extra jitte and angels could get you out of the trouble confidant could get you into.

[Rizso]

In my opinion only reason to ever play red instead of example blue or green is cos of the instant damage dealing spells. With a deck with red and white i for one would like to use Lightning Helix. Makes your clock faster while making your opponents clock slower. Experimenting with a R/W/B deck as well. But missing a couple of cards so havent played any tournaments with it yet.

4 Jötun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mother of Runes
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Duergar Hedge-Mage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Swamp
1 Mauntain
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Scrubland
3 Badlands
3 Plateau
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Board while not 100% complete yet
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Engineered Plague
2 Duergar Hedge-Mage
the 5 last will probly be something like Vexing slusher, Pithing needle and maybe Relics but dont know how much thats needed with 4 Grunts in main havent seen any Ichords in the tournaments i have played in.

Finding Figure of Destiny really good as they are good both in early and late game, only 2 lands in the deck that doesnt produce either red or white mana.

[Guevera59]

Tarmogoyf seems better than anything black can give you. PtE is better than StP. The lifegain from StPing a Goyf is so much more relevant then them getting a basic.

[Rizso]

I find bob, Thoughtseize, tidehollow Sculler and Plague in board is very strong options from black.

[badjuju]

Before you guys move forward with the deck, sit down and play it against any R/G/x variant. You'll find that your creatures are always inferior and even on the play you'll be making bad trades all day.

Not to stifle innovation, but your list is almost a carbon copy of what I was thinking of running. The only reason I could fathom for running this archetype is if you plan on seeing LOTS of combo and midrange. Also, Grim Lavamancer is ridiculous, even with the anti-synergy from Jotun Grunt.

EDIT: Here's the link http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13663

[Guevera59]

Well, i disagree, Goyf is better than all of those except perhaps Bob. You don't need Plague as Gobbos and Merfolk should be great match-ups with your burn. Grunt just isn't good any more in the face of Goyfs. You should also play PoP; best reason to play red in this type of deck.

[Rizso]

Before you guys move forward with the deck, sit down and play it against any R/G/x variant. You'll find that your creatures are always inferior and even on the play you'll be making bad trades all day.

Not to stifle innovation, but your list is almost a carbon copy of what I was thinking of running. The only reason I could fathom for running this archetype is if you plan on seeing LOTS of combo and midrange. Also, Grim Lavamancer is ridiculous, even with the anti-synergy from Jotun Grunt.

EDIT: Here's the link http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13663

Pretty much all the meta i see now is all blue based, Counterbalance, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Team america, Merfolk. Like the Black alot to be able to combat the random elves, goblin, merfolk faeries that tend to come up.

[badjuju]

Pretty much all the meta i see now is all blue based, Counterbalance, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Team america, Merfolk. Like the Black alot to be able to combat the random elves, goblin, merfolk faeries that tend to come up.

Like Guevera said, the burn suite is more than enough to tear up tribal decks. The problem is the creatures in R/W/B are decidedly smaller than in R/G/x variants. The matchup that R/W/B does much better against (than Goyf Sligh or Zoo) is the combo matchup (due to Thoughtseize and Tidehollow Sculler).

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Like Guevera said, the burn suite is more than enough to tear up tribal decks. The problem is the creatures in R/W/B are decidedly smaller than in R/G/x variants. The matchup that R/W/B does much better against (than Goyf Sligh or Zoo) is the combo matchup (due to Thoughtseize and Tidehollow Sculler).I made the experience that burn is not enough vs tribal. Most tribals have superior card draw or card quality. That's why a post board plague makes much sense imho.
Yes, any G variant aggro really has the bigger creatures, but this variant has more hate and discard and thus better chances against anything trying to do other things then just zoo out the best beaters available. All cards in this deck having some form of hate is really the point of this deck idea, that's why I excluded figurine of destiny. It had pretty good chances vs any counterbalance variants I got to test it against so far, It did beat aggro loam. VS zoo type decks you have good chances post board because almost any bigger creatures (except for tombstalker and nyxathid) are green and will perish.
I would rather play magma jet then lightning helix but decided against it because I need the speed of bolt. Path to exile really is no option because I had many situations where I needed to play swords before turn 4.

[FoolofaTook]

Too many of the creatures in the deck are conditional. What do you do when your opening hand has 2-of some combination of Lavamancer and Jotun Grunt as an example? You're going to get a fair number of those and they'll make you mull. This is on top of the mulls you'll have to make because of 3c off of 18 lands with 6 basics in the deck. Then you'll find that the answers you have in hand, Swords to Plowshares in particular, often don't match the need of the moment in the early game and you lose because of that.

I really like the concept of BRW aggro but there's no room for it to succeed at the moment in this meta because there's so much blue in play and blue's answers, and creatures at this point, are usually better than yours. There's also no hard ending in the deck for the opponent. If they manage to control your early aggro offensive there's just more of the same coming and as the game state progresses they get more powerful and you get less so.

[badjuju]

I made the experience that burn is not enough vs tribal. Most tribals have superior card draw or card quality. That's why a post board plague makes much sense imho.
Yes, any G variant aggro really has the bigger creatures, but this variant has more hate and discard and thus better chances against anything trying to do other things then just zoo out the best beaters available. All cards in this deck having some form of hate is really the point of this deck idea, that's why I excluded figurine of destiny. It had pretty good chances vs any counterbalance variants I got to test it against so far, It did beat aggro loam. VS zoo type decks you have good chances post board because almost any bigger creatures (except for tombstalker and nyxathid) are green and will perish.
I would rather play magma jet then lightning helix but decided against it because I need the speed of bolt. Path to exile really is no option because I had many situations where I needed to play swords before turn 4.

Trust me. I had the same ideas when I was building and testing the deck. I'm not just pulling this one out of my ass with some theorycrafting answer. The deck CAN be played, yes. It's good enough to stand on its own, but there are no favorable matchups, nor will there ever been any greatly overwhelming wins. Every battle versus aggro was always so painful due to Bob, a higher number of fetches for Lavamancer, and Thoughtseize. You'll really see the difference when playing vs other aggro decks, that these hate and discard cards actually set you back in some ways. With that said, you'll probably want Lightning Helix in the deck. I know I personally had a lot of issues with extensive life loss.

On FoolofaTook's comments - I've had similar issues in testing as far as Swords go. The setback isn't really worth it. I'd almost run a Goyf Sligh burn package if I could, but black/white offers a lot of stuff that should be considered. What I've noticed when testing Goyf Sligh and Zoo variants is that burn is so underrated. It's the reach that, when my opponent feels like he's stabilized, will just get Fireblasted or PoP'd in the face for the final lethal points of damage. Ontop of that, running multiple bolt effects not only serves as dome damage but also as removal. When I was running 4x Vindicate and 4x Swords, I noticed a lot of times they would just be dead topdecks while my opponent was sitting across from me with sub 5 health.

Another note on burn - when I tested R/G/x variants versus tribal, I seriously destroyed the decks with burn. Elves and goblins in particular. Without their lords and important creatures, they're nothing but a bunch of dorks and overcosted bears facing against your army of Nacatls, Kird Apes, Qasali Pridemages, and Tarmogoyfs. That was Survival Elves too, which has a great card advantage engine. The only games I lost were the ones where he went turn 3 Natural Order > Progenitus. Zoo also runs Pyroclasm in the board. Well-timed, it's just as good (if not better) than E-Plague.

Once again, the problem with this deck is that the creatures don't put on enough pressure. They're great at what they do, but they need beefier supplements. A lot of times you'll sit with a board that has Tidehollow Sculler, Grim Lavamancer, and Bob, and you'll be too afraid to attack because you have a board full of creatures that you need to keep around. This is all from my experience tweaking the deck. I'd like to reiterate that I think the archetype is PLAYABLE, but not by any means amazing or overwhelmingly successful.

[FoolofaTook]

The other thing about the matchup with Zoo is that some of the variants now have 8 creatures with Exalted in them between the Noble Hierarchs and Qasali Pridemages. A Goyf can pretty easily be 7/8 coming your way turn 4 and completely out of control given your creature base. Out of block and bolt range also. And if you had a StP it went on something else earlier. There's just no reasonable matchup with those decks at the moment.

[DragoFireheart]

Also note that Mogg Fanatic has gotten worse as a result of the new combat step.

And, I must agree with Yesmilord. Without Goyf, you are going to get run over by other aggro decks (Zoo and Goyf Sligh).

[FoolofaTook]

You can make the post-board matchups against both Threshold and Zoo better by putting in the 4 Perish. I don't think you can beat Threshold twice in a row after the likely game one loss though.

What's missing is the killer. The old BRW killer was Armageddon when you got the opportunity, but the meta is just too fast and the curve too low to make Armageddon playable in a creature aggro concept. Stax yes, creatures no.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I did playtest the deck vs threshhold and zoo yesterday, not enough games though to be able to give statistics. The main weakness of this deck is against large creatures for sure. Against zoo and threshhold perish changes the favor for R/G/W aggro. Without perish you almost always loose. I will test mother of runes because it can protect the sculler and confidant vs removal (vs most decks they do not stay in game very long hurting the card advantage you need to win). I did replace the scroll with a second jitte, jitte with counters is just the pressure this deck needs.

[Rizso]

Playtested without board today against a Elf Staff with Cameleon collossus. Most of the time it went into a stalemate cos the deck contains arround 30 creatures, Chords and Glimpse of Nature. If the staff lands without me having the hedge-mage or removal for the priest of titania he would go of i would lose or tap my creatures to attack with The Collussus for the kill.

The keycards to win was Mother of Runes, bolts, Paths, figures, jitte and bob. While the grunt isnt very good in the matchup at all, it was nice to get in the use bolts and paths and reshuffle the deck with a fetch to Redraw them was pretty nice. Removing their best creature in a trade for a tapped basic was worth it by far.

Mothers, bob and Figures has been the best creatures so far in the deck. Most of the time the figures are a 4/4 and sometimes it reaches its avatar state and thats pure gold.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I did some more playtesting:
In my tests figure of destiny was not strong enough. It cannot compete with green creatures, if you want fast large beaters just splash green. Jotun Grunts killed goyf and threshhold quite a lot and did deal a nice amount of damage. I'm thinking about playing a second cavern since this deck is very much based on speed.

Update: -2 hedge-mage, -2 lands (total, cannot recall the exact changes), -2 StP, +4 Vindicate, +2 PtE, Some changes to the SB


Regards, Spock

[Rizso]

Removed a scrubland, volrath's stronghold, -1 Mother of runes -4 Tidehollowsculler and added 3 Sensei's Divining Top, 3 Tombstalker and an extra fetchland.

Scullers didnt do to much, was most of the time a passive bear in fear of bigger creatures. The stalkers have been totally awesome in my testings.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

another update: -4 lightning bolt +4 harm's way

harm's way is exactly the card you need to make better use of valuable creatures like bob and sculler and protects vs burn.

I found this deck quite competitive so far. I think I have to try it out at some local tournament :)

[Nihil Credo]

Why play the universally-acknowledged-as-shitty as well as utterly anti-synergistic Pyrostatic Pillar when Black and White both give you access to much better options?

Also, if you cut Bolt there's even less reason to split StP vs. Path.

Also, at least a pair of Divining Tops should definitely make their way into your deck, considering that you're not particularly fast, you pack lots of fetches and Confidant, and you have plenty of potentially dead cards (HW, too many Grunts/Lavamancers/Confidants, late Thoughtseizes, etc)

[Bigface]

Necro operation!

OK. The list I'm posting is slightly different from the ones posted 'till now. It's a Wbr Aggro-Control list, less explosive but still able to pull out an answer for every menace it faces.

// Lands
1 [PT] Mountain (4)
2 [ARE] Swamp (1)
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [8E] Plains (4)
3 [A] Plateau
4 [B] Scrubland
3 [B] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Hide/Seek
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [6E] Boil

Card choices:

- Main Deck -

Mana base: 6 fetches, 10 duals and 6 basics to avoid non-basic land hate. Works quite well even against MonoB Destruction decks with lots of land destroyers (Wastelands, Smallpox, Sinkhole).

Kitchen Finks: For 3 mana, a 3/2 "recurring" life-gainer. Works well as a beater too. I know, it's not big, but works well. Life gain is quite relevant too, due to fetches and Bob.

Ajani Vengeant: A game-winner. The first ability is incredibly useful, when you're being beaten by only 1 creature (unless that creature is a Mongoose) as well as when your opponent is low on lands. The second ability (+ Helix) makes a decent removal. Against slow decks (or if you buy yourself enough turns) the third ability makes you win most of the times.

Tidehollow Sculler: 2/2 body with Thoughtseize effect. Nice.

Vexing Shusher: This little bastard allows you to play everything you got without caring about counterspells for 1 mana. I missed it while testing against Thresh and CounterTop.

Bob: CA + Beater. We play enough life-gainers to support Bob, even though this list has an average mana cost of 2.18 and 13 CC3+ cards. 3 is the right number (without Top it might hurt a lot).
I played Night's Whisper until now instead of it. Now I'm going to test which is best in this build.

Lightning Helix: Preferred over Bolt for the life-gain. Since this deck was born as a WRB Lifegain-Cradle of Vitality aggro-control deck I tested it while modding the original build. It always proved very useful.

StP: Self-explanatory.

Hide//Seek: We have two different analysis to make. Hide is useful against CounterTop (CC4 is nice), Dreadnought (yes, they have tutors for that, but theny only have 4 Stifles and no tutors for instants) and other misc artifacts/enchantments; Seek can take out combo's MD finishers and/or Ad Nauseam, FoWs, Tombstalkers, etc... It's always useful to have something to check your opponent's library and remove dangerous stuff.

Thoughtseize: Hand disruption. With Finks, Ajani and Helix (and sometimes StP too) we don't care much about life).

Vindicate: Crushing your beloved permanents since 2001.

SDT: A little draw manipulation is always useful to avoid dead draws. Also necessary with Bob, in order to protect yourself from your own cards.

- Sideboard -

Relic of Progenitus: GY hate. Shrinks Goyf, annulls Threshold, helps against Loam-recurring decks. And makes TS cost 8 to cast.

Volcanic Fallout: Priceless vs Merfolk, Landstill and most of aggro-control decks. Sure, it kills your own creatures too. Use with caution.

Engineered Plague: For Tribal-like decks, like Goblins, Merfolk (has a smaller impact, but without lords in play can be a pain in the ass) and Elves (same as merfolk) and decks like Landstill (Soldier tokens). I tried it against Thresh too (fuck you, Mongeese).

Aura of Silence: Enchantress, Stax, Affinity. It's not that easy to play stuff when you have to pay 2 more for everything.

Boil: For all decks with U in them.
The Boil slot is a meta slot. If you're meta is full of Enchantress decks, go for Tempest of Light instead. Tons of Aggro decks? Try Ghostly Prison. And so on.

- Not Included -

Umezawa's Jitte: I haven't tested it, since I was playing without Bob (creature count before the change: 11). Could be very strong, but I don't know what to cut. 'Till now the deck is working out well even without it.

Jotun Grunt: Could be played instead of Relic of Progenitus. Personally I don't like it, though.

Duergar Hedge-Mage: We already play Aura of Silence, which is better against decks who play lots of artifacts and/or enchantments.

Grim Lavamancer: Possible addiction to the deck. Aggro-control classic creature.

OK, I'm done. Comment please.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Hmm.. I think the power level of Ajani is way too low for any legacy meta. I'm thinking about trying kitchen finks trying to buy some time vs aggro decks, maybe they aren't too slow. Even with 4x mother of runes I have a hard time protecting bob and the sculler, wich are key to card advantage, I'd definately play her! I think harm's way>lightning helix. In my testings hide/seek proved a dead card way too many times so I switched it for the hedge mage (providing a creature).

[Rizso]

Btw Hide // Seek doesnt have 4 cc, each of them have 2CC. You dont take 4 damage from Hide // Seek cos it has 4CC but cos its 2 spells with 2CC.

RWB is a hard archtype to develope tbh.