WOrb aggro control

[holkenborg]

This topic originates from this topic which was in the tournament reports part of this forum: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13928

Media314r8 developed a list with good results (for more detail, see that topic):

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [10E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [US] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [b] Winter Orb
2 [MM] Thwart*
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [DIS] Leyline of the Void

Now I have made small changes about this deck and became 2nd in a 17 people tournament.

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lorescale Coatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare (did not have Thwart yet)
3 Winter Orb

// SIDEBOARD
2 Krosan Grip
3 Propaganda
3 Submerge
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
1 Winter Orb

In this topic we would like to discuss about these types of aggro control decks that use Winter Orb as part of their strategy.

[Skeggi]

Could PtE be considered? Since it brings the land in tapped, with WOrb in play, it's hardly a drawback.

Also, is there no need for stuff like Relic Barrier or Auriok Transfixer?

[Maveric78f]

Thoughts:
I'm not sure one wants to play that many cantrips with WOrb.
PtE is probably a good idea.
I'm not fond of Coatl.
I would play the 4th Knight and a land toolbox before Coatl.
Thwart is probably very weak is a deck with only 15 islands or fetches.
Keep SS.
1 Life from the loam can't be bad.

Skeggi: why play bad cards?

[Skeggi]

Skeggi: why play bad cards?
To tap Orb... I guess you wouldn't need it with the Hierarchs and the bouncing of the Islands. Just a brainfart :wink:

[holkenborg]

Thoughts:
I'm not sure one wants to play that many cantrips with WOrb.
PtE is probably a good idea.
I'm not fond of Coatl.
I would play the 4th Knight and a land toolbox before Coatl.
Thwart is probably very weak is a deck with only 15 islands or fetches.
Keep SS.
1 Life from the loam can't be bad.

Skeggi: why play bad cards?

I agree about those artifact-tappers: They are overkill-cards.

I wouldn't change the number of cantrips for they give you the necessary cards like Winter Orb.

PtE is an idea, but what if you do not have Winter Orb (happens too of course)? Then there goes your tempo advantage. But it's an idea!

A 4th knight can be added, but I'd do that for a Coatl.

Thwart I cannot judge about.

1 Life from the Loam: why exactly? Which slot should it take? The deck does not need land recursion.

[Maveric78f]

LftL was in case you add utility lands instead of ponder. I'm not sure it(s possible to find lands other than wasteland/port that fit in the WOrb theme though.

[holkenborg]

Media314r8 added a Maze of Ith (see previous topic) as utility card.

[Skeggi]

If you can fit in cycle lands Loam ofcourse is amazing, especially with Coatl. But I think there's a thread for that failed deck around here somewhere already. Wasteland seems not as synergetic with WOrb as Rishadan Port, provided you have enough nonland mana sources on the table.

Instead of Thwart/Spell Snare you could perhaps try Force Spike or Mana Leak.

I agree with Maveric's point about he number of cantrips. 8 seems too much. Perhaps you should drop to 7 or 6.

Wouldn't Oblivion Ring as a 2-of or something be a nice addition to the deck?

[Media314r8]

@Thwart: The card has played well with the deck over the past two weeks and more playtesting. (my friend borrowed it and went 6th in a 24 person tournament at the same location, and I've played it against a battery of decks in playtesting, (Rb goblins, Enchantress, UGb thresh, Merfolk, Bg rock, zoo, droves of MWS which may/may not prove anything) and it has proven itself invaluable as hardcounters 5-6. With hierarch and Knight in the deck, it was not uncommon to hardcast. It is intended to be a midgame hardcounter under Worb, as it is only a two-of. It has really only been worse than SS against combo, as if I have three lands in play, and don't get chanted/duressed I've essentially already won.

@ Coatl: I will be testing -4 coatl (from my list) + 1 knight, +3 trygon MD, as well as -3 ponder, +1 knight, +2 trygon. I have yet to swing much with the snake, but he seems much more aggressive than knight or trygon. (while knight grows +2/+2 a turn, effectivly, he cannot swing while doing so) I will also be testing with 4 snakes, 4 knight, and 3 tops in place of the 3 ponders and 1 Worb, as late game synergy with top/knight is incredible, despite the lack of early game synergy with Worb.

I am hesitant in dropping my Worb count to 3, as I really want to see one every game, and the opponents it wrecks will often force/double daze/K grip it, making second Worbs 'live.'

[johanessen]

I would add Mox Diamond (instead of Nobles) and Crucible (replaciong LftL) along with Rishadan Ports. Knight of Realiquary seems that fits better than Coatl onto this deck. I like the idea of PtE

[Media314r8]

I would add Mox Diamond (instead of Nobles) and Crucible (replaciong LftL) along with Rishadan Ports. Knight of Realiquary seems that fits better than Coatl onto this deck. I like the idea of PtE

I did consider adding mox diamonds, but pushing the deck into abusing crucible seems to be going down a path that leads to terrageddon. I think the hierarchs do more than the moxen, and don't create card disadvantage. It may be worth testing

-4 coatl
-3 ponder
-1 winter orb
-1 hierarch
+3 top
+4 mox diamond
+1 land
+1 knight

but I feel that lowering the threat density again is too much of a danger of cool things, and makes grave hate hit all of our creatures, whereas coatl grew independently of the bin.

Path may have merit, but would necessitate 4 MD Worbs (which I suppose i am still in favor of- but it means more 'locked slots' when attempting to squeeze other cards in), and would make for worse pre-boards against combo decks. I'm again not sure if lowering the number of cantrips and increasing the number of 'similar, but worse' cards is best for the deck. (ala - ponders, + diamonds, - ponders, +PtE... both of which serve as additional hierarchs and swords, but do so worse)

BTW, my current decklist is as follows:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [10E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [US] Forest (3)
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [b] Winter Orb
2 [MM] Thwart
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge

[holkenborg]

I would not cut Noble Hierarch. He is your best T1 drop. The exalted ability has surprised me positively! Also, I don't think you should cut too many creatures and exchange pressure + Winter Orb for some kind of Winter Orb + Knight combo only.

I like the improved list. Why not Tormod's Crypt instead of Relic of Progenitus? He has better interaction with both Winter Orb (0 costs) and your own Knights.

[Pneumatiker]

Don't know if it is worth its slot. But how about Blinkmoth Well as an one of tutor target for the Knight? If you don't need it u can also sac it to the Knight.

[miko]

you could try to add armaggeddon to the deck. maybee just as a sideboard option.
a scenario like this would be cool:
- casting armaggeddon
- opponent force of will
- you: thwart fow
- armageddon resolves

;)

[holkenborg]

Yes, that scenario is horrific indeed, but why play Armageddon to destroy lands when you also play Winter Orb to 'destroy' lands (in another sense). Both cards have the same function: keeping your opponent away from mana. So one could play armageddon instead of Winter Orb, but not together.

[Koby]

Don't know if it is worth its slot. But how about Blinkmoth Well as an one of tutor target for the Knight? If you don't need it u can also sac it to the Knight.

While the Blinkmoth Well can be a tutor target for the Knight, it cannot be sacrificed to it.

[Esper3k]

I'd just like to say that I really enjoyed Media314r8's tournament report and congratulations on doing so well!

I've been testing red and recently, black lists myself and I'll post more on my testings once I get more done.

Regarding the white list - in theory I think PtE is amazing if you have a Winter Orb out. However, again you have the drawbacks of it if you don't...

I really like the tricks you can do with the Heirarch + Port under Winter Orb, but again it makes you pretty reliant upon getting that Orb out.

[holkenborg]

What do you think about playing 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?

[Esper3k]

What do you think about playing 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?

What were you thinking of cutting for the Knight? One of the Coatls?

I think 3 is generally the correct number for the deck.

I'm not sure I'm sold on Tabernacle. You're not really running Manlands to get under it and even if you did, Manlands don't work well under Winter Orb. I like the Port + Hierarch trick more.

[Media314r8]

Also, hierarch + tabernacle = not a combo, and it eliminates the possibility of port-locking your opponent. It does effectively keep their mana tied down with orb out, but it's too symmetrical, and there is no way of saccing tabernacle save for a tutorable wasteland, and 2-for-1 ing to do something port essentially does better (while not tapping for mana) seems less than ideal. Blinkmoth well a perfect example of danger of cool things. If I were to run a colorless land other than port, it would be kor haven, to act as a mana producing maze of ith #2. Well is only good provided you have three mana open to allow you to untap MORE than three mana the next untap step, and this situation seems highly irrelavent/unlikely, and it would more likely just be better to draw the other colored source you need to just play the coatl/knight from your hand with the three mana, rather than get cute with orb tricks to untap lands for NEXT turn.

[Koby]

What does this deck do against Zoo and RDW? I've been testing Rhox War Monk as a SB swap-in for Lorescale Coatl. But it seems to largely be ineffective still, as it only comes online turn 3 at the earliest.

(I've also been unimpressed with Lorescale Coatl - it either dies too quickly or they don't have an answer and I win, but same could be said about Knight or Goyf, just that the latter two have more toughness thus don't die to bolts)

I'm playing around with Hydroblasts as well, since those definitly counter Fireblast to the dome, and gives me a few more turns to swing FTW.

My SB:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Propaganda
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Seasinger
3 Hydroblast

There's a lot of Merfolk in my metagame, so I need a way to continually slow their beats down. Stealing their attackers (preferably Mutavaults) seems to be the best trick as they have no removal for creatures.

[Media314r8]

What does this deck do against Zoo and RDW?

Exactly the same thing thresh decks not running CB/top main do. Counter important spells, land a goyf to block until you stabalize, and hope to win in the mid-game. The fetchable Maze of ith will help this matchup I'd imagine, as will the propagandas in the SB.

If they draw lots of burn, and we don't draw enough counters, we lose. Some decks lose to burn. It happens, you cannot be prepared to beat every tier 2/1.5 deck along with the tier 1 decks. (Saying this, I realize zoo is a DTW this month, but this is the first time in quite a while it's been such)

If zoo or burn is very prevalant in your meta, dont make copypasta with our lists, they can easily be changed to adapt.

MD: -3 ponder, +3 top. -2 thwart, +2 CB
SB: -3 propaganda, +3 jitte, -2 K grip, +1 CB, +1 top

something like that and burn should be much easier.

[holkenborg]

I agree with those changes as in +CounterTop, but then you should cut Winter Orb too because Winter Orb + Sensei Top isn't really going along..

[Esper3k]

Another reason to take out the Winter Orb against Zoo is that a lot of them are starting to run PtE over StP. PtE is just amazing under Winter Orb... I've had my guys Pathed while under my own Winter Orb and it sucks! :)

[Media314r8]

Another reason to take out the Winter Orb against Zoo is that a lot of them are starting to run PtE over StP. PtE is just amazing under Winter Orb... I've had my guys Pathed while under my own Winter Orb and it sucks! :)

While path has very little drawback under a winter orb, This statement is equivalent to saying 'don't run CMC <=3 creatures because players play smother.' When your aggro opponent resolves removal against you, the aggro/control player, life sucks, and just because occasionally the 'fixed swords' part of PtE is negated, it does not mean I should cut a card that works so well against much of the meta. I rarely care whether my guys are eating it to path OR swords, as I'm losing my guy and they have regained tempo. If I don't have the counter or another guy, the game is likely over whether I gain some life, or get a land, be it tapped or untapped.

A more relevant interaction to note would be "if your meta has lots of RR painter, goblins, zoo, and red-splash thresh, you should consider ghostly prison over propaganda, as despite it's inability to pitch to force and it being your splash rather than your primary color, it is not affected by REB, which will be sided in against you in the majority of these MUs." I have considered this, and will adjust my SB accordingly should these decks become more popular than other tribal decks, aggro/control decks, and white-splash thresh. I have played against a player with MB PtEs, and kept my Worbs in against him as they were still enough of a hindrance to him to give away the 'free' land from path.

@ CB main: I'm not recommending it unless your meta is rife with burn, combo, and zoo. I think it is possible to play top in the same deck as Worb, as the deck also runs a total of seven ways to generate additional mana each turn. The CB plan would then take over ponder's job of card filtering, and port/orb's job of locking out your opponent mid/late-game. It is of note that top does have a very positive interaction with knight as you can 'fetch' bad cards away at will with knight's ability, as many as two times a turn when you need to dig for another threat/removal/swords. (as you can knight to get a fetch, top, and then fetch to effectively see 9 cards with top that turn.)

[Esper3k]

I'm just saying that's another reason to take out Winter Orb against Zoo... on top of them having an extremely low mana curve which lets them function under a Winter Orb much more easily than other decks.