TopControl

[iamajellydonut]

Landx19
4 * Flooded Strand
4 * Plains
7 * Island
2 * Tundra
1 * Polluted Delta
1 * Windswept Heath

Spellsx41
1 * Back to Basics
4 * Brainstorm
4 * Counterbalance
4 * Force of Will
2 * Propaganda
4 * Standstill
3 * Stifle
3 * Words of Wind
4 * Enlightened Tutor
1 * Idyllic Tutor
1 * Oblivion Ring
2 * Porphyry Nodes
4 * Chrome Mox
4 * Sensei's Divining Top
--------------------
Sideboard
2 * Back to Basics
4 * Chill
1 * Daze
2 * Propaganda
1 * Stifle
1 * Words of Wind
4 * Tormod's Crypt


Basically, Top = Game. It's obviously part of the CounterTop, but it's also the other half of the win con. You can use Words of Wind's and SDT's abilities to continuously bounce Top back to your hand while bouncing their entire field. This also means that you can choose to never draw again.

Enlightened Tutor is without a doubt the all star of the deck. I've used it plenty of times in tandem with Counterbalance. And in addition to the wincons, it has a small tutor box. Propaganda is an obvious one.

This deck has performed admirably in testing, and would shell out every penny I have for it if I had even one penny. (money is really tight.) Though that doesn't mean that this is budget. I simply love designing decks.

There are only a few things I'm not sure on.

Stifle mainboard is ok, but that one copy in the board is kinda useless. I put both in as filler. Spell Snare instead?

That 1xDaze in the sideboard is just filler, though it has come in handy quite a few times. This doesn't mean I want it mainboard. This deck enjoys consistent land drops.

p.s. Here's how the combo works for those of you that do not know.

I activate Words of Wind, then Top's second ability. As a replacement effect, I can return Top to my hand before it would be put on top of my library.

[pi4meterftw]

Run culling scales if you want this deck to stay casual.

But if you want the deck to be an actual contender in an average metagame, please elaborate upon why your deck is superior to landstill, and why it has no win conditions in it. (I understand you believe decking is a win condition. How do you intend on finishing that quickly?)

[iamajellydonut]

Run culling scales if you want this deck to stay casual.

But if you want the deck to be an actual contender in an average metagame, please elaborate upon why your deck is superior to landstill, and why it has no win conditions in it. (I understand you believe decking is a win condition. How do you intend on finishing that quickly?)

This deck is not casual.

Landstill relies heavily on non-basics. Back to Basics absolutely annihilates Landstill variants. This deck has only two sticky non-basics in it, both of which are non-essential for the most part, meaning that any Wasteland/Crucible shenanigans are useless. I have pretty much the same amount of draw as them, plus a tutor box. Letting me find my lock and any answers arguably faster.

The deck beats Landstill on a regular basis.

p.s. That is a viable win condition. Early game, (sometimes as early as turn3) having no permanents is extremely hindering. In the late game, not having permanents, facing CounterTop, and staring down an opposing hand of Force of Will is just a brick wall. Conceding is a very quick win.

[Carabas]

How do Top and Words of Wind interact in much of a profitable manner? It looks like at the cost of :2: a turn, you can bounce a single permanent, but that's not that exciting.

[iamajellydonut]

How do Top and Words of Wind interact in much of a profitable manner? It looks like at the cost of :2: a turn, you can bounce a single permanent, but that's not that exciting.

At the first draw, I can tap an Island for the effect, bouncing then playing the Island. After that, I can bounce one permanent for every two mana I have. And while that wouldn't exactly do much with just a blank board on my part, I have CounterTop to slow the rate of return, Porphyry Nodes to kill any creatures that come back, Propaganda to prevent any damage that would've been taken, Back to Basics for a little support, etc.

X/2+1

p.s. As I expect some of you must have MWS, test it out yourself. :D

[Guevera59]

With such a slow ass win condition, you better hope that you never lose a game. In a tournament, this just isn't viable. if your opponent is ahead 1-0 for game 2, they will not concede. A good player will wait until you show a win condition, and, upon seeing it's some janky Words of War + SDT 'combo', they'll just sit it out. Besides, if you opt to not draw cards anymore, you're losing.

P.S. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716

[iamajellydonut]

With such a slow ass win condition, you better hope that you never lose a game. In a tournament, this just isn't viable. if your opponent is ahead 1-0 for game 2, they will not concede. A good player will wait until you show a win condition, and, upon seeing it's some janky Words of War + SDT 'combo', they'll just sit it out. Besides, if you opt to not draw cards anymore, you're losing.

P.S. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716

That is a valid point, but it doesn't stop this from being a good deck.

[Roman Candle]

I feel like you might as well play Painter-Stone in this shell, because you've already got the support for it. That solves your win-condition problem.

At the very least, play Hoofprints of the Stag or Jace. You definitely need a way to win early.

EDIT: Or, y'know, Tarmogoyf.

EDIT2: Swords to Plowshares needs to be in here. At least one Engineered Explosives too. Stifle seems pretty bad in a deck that wants to go into the late game. And Standstill is awful when you have no way to apply pressure to an opponent. Trinket Mage could see play too if you switch up the toolbox a little bit.

[lavafrogg]

I like the win condition. I can't think of anyway to make it good but I really do like the innovation to come up with a "new" win condition in this format.

How do you deal with a resolved pithing needle, one O-ring does not seem reliable. I would suggest engineered expolsives but that would further my theory that null rod will be main deck material (go go fish!) very soon in legacy.

This reminds me of the sensei sensei deck that was moderatly popular a couple of years ago but it only takes one top to "win". could you add a helm to make the bouncing cost less for you? I mean 1 to bounce a permanate seems better that 2 by a solid amount.

[Zir]

First off, interesting deck.
Few points of critique:
Chrome Moxes seem bad here. It's not all that useful with your curve, and once you hit Words, it becomes horrible.
Standstill has no place here, you don't have manlands/vial and it'll end up being in the other guys favor.
Stifle doesn't fit in here either.
How about:
-4 CMox
-4 Standstill
-3 Stifle

+4 StP
+2 Daze
+2 Jace Beleren
+2 Repeal (not sure about this spot, preferably something blue that can deal with troublesome artifacts/enchantments, as CotV and CBalance are a beating at the moment)
+1 Relic of Progenitus

[Maveric78f]

The win con could simply be trinket mage*3/4. Or a tutorable artifact but I can't think of any that is good enough as a finisher and as a control element, or maybe dreadnought*1, since you already play stifle. I think also that STP would be valuable since you need to give yourself some time.

Ps: I don't like Nodes. And standstill in this deck, why on earth ???

[GreenOne]

The concept is really interesting, but, as everyone said, the deck needs some win condition.
Here's my catch on it:

Landx23
4 * Flooded Strand
4 * Plains
7 * Island
2 * Tundra
1 * Academy Ruins (quite good with EE and giving you back countered SDT)
1 * Windswept Heath
4 * Mishra's factory (Win condition and additional lands, in place of Moxes)

Spellsx37
1 * Back to Basics
4 * Brainstorm
4 * Counterbalance
4 * Force of Will
1 * Propaganda
4 * Standstill (might work better now with Mishra's)
3 * Words of Wind
4 * Enlightened Tutor
1 * Oblivion Ring
4 * Sensei's Divining Top
3 * Swords to Plowshares
3 * Trinket mage (additional wincon and tutor for Top and EE)
1 * Engineered Explosives

Or, alternatively, cut Standstill entirely and play
+1 Runed Halo (solution to combo)
+1 Relic of progenitus
+1 Trinket
+1 Swords

Or
+1 Runed Halo (solution to combo)
+1 Relic of progenitus
+2 Jace Beleren (for its awesomeness with words and as a wincondition)

Or +3 Stifle, +1 Dreadnought

EDIT: even some game-breaking enchantment like Moat should be inspectioned.
EDIT2: After a bit of testing Back to Basics sucks when running Mishra's. Needs to be cut for something.

[Maveric78f]

The biggest issue with your builds is the lack of 2CC cards for counterbalance. I have some difficulties too:

0CC: 21
1EE
8Ufetches
3Wfetches
5islands
1plains
1academy ruins
2tundras

1CC: 17
4tops
4BS
4ET
4STP
1Relic

2CC: 9
4CB
1Hoofprint
1Runed Halo
3Counterspell (or something else blue and @2CC, like boomerang, or some CA like predict...)

3CC: 9
2WoW
4Trinket Mage
2ORing
1B2B

5CC: 4
4FoW

Hoofprint maybe deserves more than 1 slot.

[ScatmanX]

Helm of Awakening + Brain Freeze can be the way to go, once you already has Top, and can tutor for 1 or 2 off Helm.

[iamajellydonut]

Alright, mass reply, go!

Standstill is good. It's not quite as effective as it is in Landstill, but it's still good. Against almost anything other than Landstill variants (including Merfolk), it's basically a 2cc draw 3. Plus, if they do choose to wait it out, Standstill can cut their number of stalling turns by three. It can also serve as Mox/FoW bait.

Jace is interesting, but seems like a 100% dead card at any time other than the end game. Just Goyf food.

Porphyry Nodes is actually pretty great. Against 1+ creatures, it's a Wrath. Against only one, it's spot removal.

Back to Basics does not suck when running Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory sucks when running Back to Basics. Back to Basics stays.

Chrome Mox is very necessary. As I said early, this deck likes its mana. Plus, a turn3 lock is just too good to pass up.

I actually haven't even seen a Pithing Needle in all my testing, though, it would mean GG. I think I'll add 1xEE. It'll get rid of Vial, Needle, any Moxes that decide to screw with WoW, etc. That also means 1xAcademy Ruins.

Trinket Mage could very well be the win con. It'd let me search for EE, Top, and anything else I might decide to run.


I'm testing out an updated version from all this feedback right now. I'll tell you how it goes, soon.

p.s. This deck does not need moar Goyf.

p.p.s. I already said in the OP that Stifle was strictly filler.

[Anusien]

If you have Standstill out, you can't bounce things with Top. If you don't have anything to bash with under Standstill, you can't run it. Plus, if you ever draw off Standstill, it's very likely that you can't deck your opponent.

[iamajellydonut]

If you have Standstill out, you can't bounce things with Top. If you don't have anything to bash with under Standstill, you can't run it. Plus, if you ever draw off Standstill, it's very likely that you can't deck your opponent.

If I'm bouncing things with Top, it means I'm going for the win, and I don't need the cards or care very much that my opponent draws cards. In fact, I may be happy that my opponent is drawing cards.

Why can't I run it without creatures? If they don't play anything and just try and wait it out, I'm just going to continue filling my hand until I get my lock in hand. And when I do find my lock, I can play it without a care in the world. Of course, this is less effective against Landstill, which is why I board it out ASAP. It still serves as Mox/FoW fodder, though.

A large factor of the combo is that I can choose never to draw again. This means that I can be down to one card in my library, and still win.

p.s. Think of it this way...

Standstill 1U
Enchantment
Players can't play spells until you decide it's convenient.

[Zir]

The main problem with standstill is so many decks are better at abusing it than you are. You can't afford to drop one if they have any clock on you, since you simply can't operate under standstill.

[Media314r8]

Regarding standstill:


Why can't I run it without creatures? If they don't play anything and just try and wait it out, I'm just going to continue filling my hand until I get my lock in hand. And when I do find my lock, I can play it without a care in the world. Of course, this is less effective against Landstill, which is why I board it out ASAP. It still serves as Mox/FoW fodder, though.

A large factor of the combo is that I can choose never to draw again. This means that I can be down to one card in my library, and still win.

p.s. Think of it this way...

Standstill 1U
Enchantment
Players can't play spells until you decide it's convenient.

Because many of the decks in today's metagame play creatures themselves, nearly all of them being one and two drops. Should an opponent resolve a goyf, (or, god help you a lackey or a mongoose) your standstills you draw (or all of them, if your opponent is on the play) after that are dead cards, and you are on a very short clock, and are pretty much SOL if you don't see a swords/O ring. (swords in the case of lackey) The 'well I just counter/swords their early threats' argument is invalid, as many/most of these decks play as many or more counterspells than you do, and some decks in the meta play vial. Standstill is absolute garbage here, no offense, but you cannot abuse it or pressure your opponent to break it, and the times you don't resolve it turn two on the play will be vastly outnumbered by the number of times your opponent will resolve a threat before you have the opportunity to land your standstill.

That said, I like the concept of the deck, and can see it being easily tier 1.5 if your skills in refinement match your skills in innovation. Good luck.

Also, for the love of god, cut mox for the reasons already mentioned. I would like to see a moat in the main as an 'oops, i win' card against much of the meta.

[iamajellydonut]

The main problem with standstill is so many decks are better at abusing it than you are. You can't afford to drop one if they have any clock on you, since you simply can't operate under standstill.

Then what do I put in place of it? I have no other draw.

Edit: Maybe an Enchantress? But that would force me into 3 colors, making Back to Basics less effective and opening me for some random events.

Edit2.0: An Enchantress would also let me use something as random as Back to Basics for a less effective lock. Just a thought.

[Dark_Cynic87]

11 fetches in a two-color list seems stupid. More than 8 is rediculous, and I'd think 6 would be enough This allows for more basics, more mana produced, and you could drop down a land or two for more spells. Thresh varients that run 3x colors only run 6 fetches. Your curve is so low that while you do have a pretty mana-intensive list, you are running too many lands. There has got to be other ways to do this (Extraplanar Lens?). Have you ever thought of Helm of Awakening? That would allow you to play tops for free, only having to spend 1 every time you wanted to bounce a spell. It makes stuff cheaper for them, but you can just bounce it back. I would also run some other form of bounce (Wipe Away/Chain of Vapor/Rushing River/Echoing Truth; any of these are fine, each obviously have pros and cons).

I also agree with everyone else that you do need a win-con, and that Standstill isn't going to serve you in the long run. I'd do Trinket Mages and PainterStone. That's just me.

Another win condition would be Words of Worship plus Test of Endurance, but I think that's fail.

Pce,

--DC

[iamajellydonut]

<standstill>

That said, I like the concept of the deck, and can see it being easily tier 1.5 if your skills in refinement match your skills in innovation. Good luck.

Also, for the love of god, cut mox for the reasons already mentioned. I would like to see a moat in the main as an 'oops, i win' card against much of the meta.

I concede on Standstill. Just find me a draw replacement.

Actually, while Mox was originally in there for the quicker lock, it's now necessary. Trinket Mage replacing Stifle? That's a huge jump, and something that must be bridged.

I was avoiding Moat because it would prevent the Mage from attacking, but then I realized that I can just bounce it when it is no longer relevant. I'll try and find a spot.

[Media314r8]

Then what do I put in place of it? I have no other draw.

You do have brainstorm and fetches. You could run ponder, a looter of some sort, or thirst for knoledge. I'm not sure how the words works with cards like looter or brainstorm, but if when you replace the draw, the 'discard/put two back' clause doesnt happen, that seems like dirty cheats and thus ideal.

EDIT: I know it works with sindbad, but I'm certainly not recommending sindbad.

[Roman Candle]

Ponder seems strongest, but Thirst could work too, especially if you feel you need the extra card draw.

That being said, I still feel like Painter-Grindstone is the way to go with this deck. You already play 4 Enlightened Tutors, you play CounterTop to protect it, you have trouble winning early, you play Trinket Mage, etc. It also lets you win a match when you lose game 1, whereas the deck as it stands would have no chance of finishing two more games within the time limit.

[Dark_Cynic87]

You should talk to Baghdadbob. He just had a build posted here in this forum that was almost IDENTICAL. I helped him with his list, and he was very happy with it. The only thing that was different was that he didn't use WoW. Blue/White, and had a singleton moat, a set of Tutors, CounterTop, I'm talking everything down to the PainterStone combo for the win. I can't remember what it was called, but I'm sure a search of this forum would find it for you. I think you will like it. Ran only 4 fetches (you could run 2 Delta on top of the Strands) and a single Tundra so turn one he could fetch it, play a Tutor and Daze something all with that land, the rest were basics so that Back To Basics worked well for him, and I think he ran 22 land or something close, and also I think there may have been some number of mox diamonds as well (not for sure).

You should look into it, but I think moat is largely unnecessary in that you already are playing Propaganda (I'd make it Ghostly Prison so that Pyro/REB are less painful for you).

Anyway, search for it, it's fairly new and I think it's what you are looking for.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: I lied, but I did find the list, and here it is; this is the last list posted in the 2-page thread labeled "U/W Painter's Stone" (If you want to see the whole thread):

* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Intuition
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 2 x Mana Leak
* 4 x Daze
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 3 x Ghostly Prison
* 2 x Oblivion Ring
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 7 x Island
* 6 x Plains
* 1 x Tundra
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

side board
3x Wrath
2x O-Ring
3x Meddling Mage
1x Ghostly Prison
2x Wipe Away
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Echoing Truth

[baghdadbob]

Yeah the list I'm running has been wrecking havoc on the underground scene. Can't wait to get a Tabernacle then here I come tourny's. :smile:

[Guevera59]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17208_Flow_of_Ideas_Through_My_Eyes_A_GP_Chicago_Story.html

Check this list out for some ideas. He runs the same Tutor+Counterbalance=Cute combo

[iamajellydonut]

You do have brainstorm and fetches. You could run ponder, a looter of some sort, or thirst for knoledge. I'm not sure how the words works with cards like looter or brainstorm, but if when you replace the draw, the 'discard/put two back' clause doesnt happen, that seems like dirty cheats and thus ideal.

EDIT: I know it works with sindbad, but I'm certainly not recommending sindbad.

I mean hard draw. Like +1CA draw. Thirst is (conditionally) the only one of those listed.

p.s. The trick doesn't work with any of those (except Sinbad). There are very few cards that do.

@Dark Cynic: Thank you very much for the Ghostly Prison reminder. I have actually run into a situation where I lost because Propaganda was blue. (goblins)

@Everyone: Moat is problematic. It's 4cc and double white. I'd love to have it in there, as it's GG if landed against oh so many decks, but I can't get it to click. I'm still in the works of testing the rest, but I'll let you know.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Run more mana-producing lands, less fetches. Problem solved. Run 4-6 blue fetches, 4 of them white (read: 4x Strand, 2x Delta, or alternatively 1x Delta, 1x Heath for a fifth blue fetch and a fifth white fetch), one Tundra and the rest basics. That would really help the double white requirement for Moat. Also, I think a singleton Humility would really work well since you could put it in play (I understand it will screw up your Painter's Servant), except you run WoWind so you can bounce it back whenever you choose to combo off. Another double-white requirement, but that only solidifies the choice of going with more basics, less fetches and duals. You are running B2B, a Moat and a Humility. That really helps justify the land choices.

Just a reminder, but when you swap out your Propagandas for Prisons, watch your blue count so your forces aren't undercut by a lack of blue cards to toss.

Pce,

--DC

[iamajellydonut]

Run more mana-producing lands, less fetches. Problem solved. Run 4-6 blue fetches, 4 of them white (read: 4x Strand, 2x Delta, or alternatively 1x Delta, 1x Heath for a fifth blue fetch and a fifth white fetch), one Tundra and the rest basics. That would really help the double white requirement for Moat. Also, I think a singleton Humility would really work well since you could put it in play (I understand it will screw up your Painter's Servant), except you run WoWind so you can bounce it back whenever you choose to combo off. Another double-white requirement, but that only solidifies the choice of going with more basics, less fetches and duals. You are running B2B, a Moat and a Humility. That really helps justify the land choices.

Just a reminder, but when you swap out your Propagandas for Prisons, watch your blue count so your forces aren't undercut by a lack of blue cards to toss.

Pce,

--DC

That is actually the mana base I'm running, albeit the 1/1 fetches split and +1xTundra.

Humility is a great idea, but it would unfortunately shut down Trinket Mage. 1xMoat should be enough.

I thought of FoW when making the switch, but so far I haven't hit any roadblocks. I think I'll do a split somehow on the two, though. Just so that I don't dilute FoW too much post-board.

[Dark_Cynic87]

That is actually the mana base I'm running, albeit the 1/1 fetches split and +1xTundra.

Humility is a great idea, but it would unfortunately shut down Trinket Mage. 1xMoat should be enough.

I thought of FoW when making the switch, but so far I haven't hit any roadblocks. I think I'll do a split somehow on the two, though. Just so that I don't dilute FoW too much post-board.

I wasn't aware that you were running Trinket Mage. You haven't posted a list in a while, I think you should so we know what you are running. Either that or update the first post. Obviously you are correct, but maybe one in the board wouldn't be a bad idea.

Honestly, with all the Cascade stuff going on with Hypergenesis, Humility really will be a lifesaver in this matchup. Side it in game 2, possibly side in bounce spells as they (me, I run a full 4x) use O-Rings because of Humility//Prison//Moat//Ensnaring Bridge. Just E. Tutor for it your turn one and when they go off, drop it and then when they o-ring it, bounce the o-ring. They try to replay it, counter it. It only has to last you until you get WoW up and running (which you can obviously drop with their Hypergenesis as well), and then just bounce their critters until they use both of their Hypergenesis and all their Show and Tells. Save your protection (counterspells) for the counter-wars, not their cascade spells.

Pce,

--DC

[iamajellydonut]

I wasn't aware that you were running Trinket Mage. You haven't posted a list in a while, I think you should so we know what you are running. Either that or update the first post. Obviously you are correct, but maybe one in the board wouldn't be a bad idea.

Honestly, with all the Cascade stuff going on with Hypergenesis, Humility really will be a lifesaver in this matchup. Side it in game 2, possibly side in bounce spells as they (me, I run a full 4x) use O-Rings because of Humility//Prison//Moat//Ensnaring Bridge. Just E. Tutor for it your turn one and when they go off, drop it and then when they o-ring it, bounce the o-ring. They try to replay it, counter it.

Pce,

--DC

Yea, I probably should. :P I'll edit it into this post.

Is Hypergenesis really that big of a deal right now? I haven't seen/heard of any outside of Extended. And those ones are terrible.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I can win turn 3, FoW//MisD//Unmask protected and/or Decree of Silence protected with a perfect hand, and you can't kill//Block my creatures or burn me to death. It's pretty sexy.

Pce,

--DC

[iamajellydonut]

I can win turn 3, FoW//MisD//Unmask protected and/or Decree of Silence protected with a perfect hand, and you can't kill//Block my creatures or burn me to death. It's pretty sexy.

Pce,

--DC

Jesus...

p.s. Here's the updated list. I haven't gotten too much time to test it, so don't consider it a finished project.

Landx19
4 * Plains
6 * Island
1 * Academy Ruins
4 * Flooded Strand
1 * Polluted Delta
2 * Tundra
1 * Windswept Heath

Creaturesx3
3 * Trinket Mage

Spellsx38
4 * Enlightened Tutor
2 * Ghostly Prison
1 * Idyllic Tutor
1 * Oblivion Ring
1 * Porphyry Nodes
1 * Back to Basics
4 * Brainstorm
4 * Counterbalance
4 * Force of Will
4 * Standstill
3 * Words of Wind
4 * Chrome Mox
1 * Engineered Explosives
4 * Sensei's Divining Top
--------------------
Sideboard
1 * Ghostly Prison
1 * Porphyry Nodes
2 * Back to Basics
4 * Chill
1 * Propaganda
1 * Words of Wind
1 * Pithing Needle
3 * Relic of Progenitus
1 * Tormod's Crypt

[chokin]

If you run Trinket Mage...and Englightened Tutor...doesn't Painter sound like an auto include?

Propaganda should probably be in here too. You can shrink your dependency on white and add Force food in the process. I know you have 1 in the board, but maybe run 2-3 Props main, and 0-2 Prisons side.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Jesus...


Yes, my child? :cool:





Landx19
6 * Plains
6 * Island
1 * Tundra
4 * Flooded Strand
1 * Polluted Delta
1 * Windswept Heath

Creaturesx3
3 * Trinket Mage (You may want the fourth. Also, crazy reusable Trix with Echoing Truth...)

Spellsx38
4 * Enlightened Tutor
2 * Ghostly Prison
1 * Idyllic Tutor
1 * Oblivion Ring
1 * Porphyry Nodes
1 * Back to Basics
4 * Brainstorm
4 * Accumulated Knowledge
4 * Counterbalance
4 * Force of Will

1 * Helm of Awakening (try it out with Top, took out Mox cuz it does even better than mox without the CDisadvantage, may even turn out to be better and this would be a wierd Sensei, Sensei list--Could put a Brain Freeze in here or some Cunning Wishes for a storm combo win, lmao)

3 * Words of Wind
3 * Chrome Mox
1 * Engineered Explosives
4 * Sensei's Divining Top
--------------------
Sideboard
1 * Ghostly Prison
1 * Porphyry Nodes
2 * Back to Basics
4 * Chill
1 * Propaganda
1 * Words of Wind
1 * Pithing Needle
3 * Relic of Progenitus
1 * Tormod's Crypt

That's closer to what I would do.

Pce,

--DC

[iamajellydonut]

If you run Trinket Mage...and Englightened Tutor...doesn't Painter sound like an auto include?

Propaganda should probably be in here too. You can shrink your dependency on white and add Force food in the process. I know you have 1 in the board, but maybe run 2-3 Props main, and 0-2 Prisons side.

I can waste 4-8 spots on cards that do nothing except function as a win condition, or I can use those spots on cards that work to the deck's overall benefit and act as the win condition.

I'm working on finding a workable split. REB is a huge consideration, but FoW food must be there in a pinch.

@DarkCynic: I'll try the Helm, but it just seems like overkill. And a huge risk. It allows them to play 2cc cards. Would Etherium Sculptor fit in that spot?

[pi4meterftw]

Do you have something against winning in a timely manner? It would be so easy to run a win condition. In case you only care about the number of matches you win, going faster helps you. Your opponent always has the choice to concede or not. Against normal decks, your opponent can choose to take probably anywhere between 0-1 minute, depending on how long he waits until he concedes. Against you, your opponent can wait until the end of the match if he wants to, which means he'll selective choose to concede or not based on the previous results. Also, more directly, you can steal games by winning them before turn 50.

[Dark_Cynic87]

and they couldn't play 2cc spells before because...? If you are worried about 2cc spells, play Spell Snare.

Also, I think for a win-con you should use some number of cunning wishes, a brain freeze md and one sb. Cunning Wishes also allow for you to grab other silver bullets and add even more flexibility to what you can maneuver around, whether it's more StP in the board, a MisD, Stifle, Chant, etc. Maybe you could look into that. It's an idea for a win-con in a timely manner.

Pce,

--DC

[Roman Candle]

I can waste 4-8 spots on cards that win the game, or I can use those spots on cards that don't win the game.

Fixed.

EDIT: You only really need 2 Painter's Servants and 2 Grindstones, and then you'll actually be able to win a game before the opponent has to leave to shave.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I still like my idea better...

[MULocke]

Try predict as your card draw. You should be able to abuse the heck out of it (plus, it's fun when your opponent mystical tutors for a combo piece).

[Dark_Cynic87]

Ooh, or when they put their top on top of their library to counter your top (or whatever). That's really funny.

Good call. Way better than AK IMHO. I forgot about it.

Pce,

--DC

[Roman Candle]

I still like my idea better...

Painter is a 2-card combo. Helm-Sensei-Sensei-Brain Freeze is a 4-card combo.

[Guevera59]

/mediocre

[iamajellydonut]

and they couldn't play 2cc spells before because...? If you are worried about 2cc spells, play Spell Snare.

Also, I think for a win-con you should use some number of cunning wishes, a brain freeze md and one sb. Cunning Wishes also allow for you to grab other silver bullets and add even more flexibility to what you can maneuver around, whether it's more StP in the board, a MisD, Stifle, Chant, etc. Maybe you could look into that. It's an idea for a win-con in a timely manner.

Pce,

--DC

What I mean, is that with 1 land out (Top/Words combo), all they can play is 1cc spells. Having Helm in play would allow them to play 2cc spells with only 1 land out.

p.s. I'd be willing to consider Wish if you could create a shell.


Try predict as your card draw. You should be able to abuse the heck out of it (plus, it's fun when your opponent mystical tutors for a combo piece).

Amazingly enough, that's not a half bad idea...


Do you have something against winning in a timely manner? It would be so easy to run a win condition. In case you only care about the number of matches you win, going faster helps you. Your opponent always has the choice to concede or not. Against normal decks, your opponent can choose to take probably anywhere between 0-1 minute, depending on how long he waits until he concedes. Against you, your opponent can wait until the end of the match if he wants to, which means he'll selective choose to concede or not based on the previous results. Also, more directly, you can steal games by winning them before turn 50.

Trinket Mage is actually functioning very nicely in that spot. It has cut back the win time by a lot.

[Roman Candle]

Trinket Mage is actually functioning very nicely in that spot. It has cut back the win time by a lot.

I feel like relying on a Gray Ogre is stretching the definition of "win fast."

[pi4meterftw]

What I mean, is that with 1 land out (Top/Words combo), all they can play is 1cc spells. Having Helm in play would allow them to play 2cc spells with only 1 land out.

p.s. I'd be willing to consider Wish if you could create a shell.



Amazingly enough, that's not a half bad idea...



Trinket Mage is actually functioning very nicely in that spot. It has cut back the win time by a lot.

As I said, if the games stay casual, you don't need to worry about how long your deck takes to win, and your friends will just concede whenever you establish the lock. However, in a tournament, you would be at a serious disadvantage. Essentially, that disadvantage is equivalent to having to win every match 2-0. I thought I would put it into more "concrete" terms for you so you can appreciate the need of winning more quickly than in 9-10 turns. Why is it so hard just to run a couple of decree of justice? You know, something that you play, and then you win, instead of you play, and then maybe win after I order a pizza (New York style of course). Sure, trinket mage reduced your win time by like 90% or w/e, now you take 10 minutes instead of being unable to finish. It still gives your opponent a lot of freedom on the pace of the match.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Painter is a 2-card combo. Helm-Sensei-Sensei-Brain Freeze is a 4-card combo.

I understand, but the thing already sports 4x Top, the guy runs 4x Enlightened Tutor to find Helm/SDT (Mages also), Wishes are good for a lot more than finding a Brain Freeze, and I think most people understand that. It's an option.

I don't have time atm to make a shell, but I may in the near future.

Pce,

--DC

[Roman Candle]

I understand, but the thing already sports 4x Top, the guy runs 4x Enlightened Tutor to find Helm/SDT (Mages also), Wishes are good for a lot more than finding a Brain Freeze, and I think most people understand that. It's an option.

I don't have time atm to make a shell, but I may in the near future.

Pce,

--DC

The 4x Enlightened Tutors and Trinket Mages also can find Painter/Stone. The deck may already play 4 Sensei's Divining Top, but it would still need to play Helm of Awakening and Cunning Wish, so the two combos take up roughly the same amount of deck space. I'll admit that a Cunning Wish on its own does more than a Painter or Grindstone on its own, but you're less likely to have a Painter or a Grindstone on their own when the combo takes half the cards of the other. And at least Painter and Grindstone don't actually help the opponent, like Helm does.

But most importantly, 4-card combos inherently suck. Period.