[Deck] Goblin Survival

[GGoober]

So I was walking home today, thinking of Survival Bant, and trying to make a variant of it. I thought of a black splash with Shriekmaw + Genesis + Rofellos, as in traditional builds, and it wasn't working out due to the color commitment. My mind drifted off in wonderland in Houston's terrible sun, and I thought about all the Survival decks out there that are somewhat competitive:

Bant Survival
ATS
RGBSA
Elf Survival
Sliver Survival (a possibility to be very strong, could be built in direction to Bant Survival, running both FOWs and slivers, too bad hibernation sliver got nerfed)

I was pondering on the strengths of Survival, how it gives a sense of "inevitabilitiness" when decks have no answers to it. I enjoy watching my opponents suffocate in fear as I proceed to demonic tutor every turn with Squee. And I wondered, what other decks could work with Survival?

And it came to my mind that Squee was a Goblin.


DECKLIST: Goblin Survival
// Lands 23
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

// Creatures 29
2 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Squee
1 Rofellos
1 Anger

// Spells 8
4 AEther Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard options
- Goblin Sharpshooter
- Boartusk Liege
- Shriekmaw + Genesis
- Vexing Shusher
- Thoughtseize
- Tin-street Hooligan
- Goblin Pyromancer (for fast win)


As you can see, I've dropped 1 Ringleader, 1 Siege-Gang, 4 Matrons from the traditional list, but this is to account for the fact that you have 4 Survival of the Fittest. The main incentive for this list is simple. Goblins is famous for their hideous turn 1 Lackeys and turn 1 Vials, all of which have to be dealt with or the game will turn heavily in favor to Goblins. As I mentioned, I was thinking of the possible dangers of Survival, and found myself a saddist when people cannot answer it. With this list, opponents have to deal with: 1) Lackey, 2) Vial, 3) Survival or proceed to lose.

The deck itself has so much synergy that I'm a little frightened. Instead of Genesis + Rofellos in traditional lists, we have Wort as Genesis to recur things for free. Gempalm incinerator is now a tutorable instant speed removal that cantrips, and is recurrable by our the Goblin Genesis i.e. Wort. Siege-Gang is tutorable and via Survival and Wort recurs him as well, together with Rofellos mana, making this deck very potent in the late game. Rofellos helps a lot in saccing and firing goblin cannons from Siege-gang. Survival gives a good late game for goblins when the deck plays out dry. Not to mention Wort tutors up Tinkerer and Stingscourger. Not to mention, you can now tutor Gempalm to clear the way for swingers, and also if there are no blockers, for just one green mana, you can tutor and Lackey out any Goblin you need on the board.

In the sideboard, one can put 4 Therpaies, 4 Thoughtseize against combo. To be honest, I can't find space in the maindeck. Maybe the deck can forgo some cards to put thoughtseize in its place (I think that's the best changes that will come after discussion)


The main changes to traditional goblin list is to drop Matron tutoring for Survival Tutoring. Dropping Ports for a more stable 3color manabase to operate with Survival and the sideboard. The deck can still play as a regular goblins deck, but drawing Survival helps a lot more in the late game. I don't think I have to tell you that one can go:

e.g. EOT Survival: Squee/Anger/Siege-Gang or Incinerator/Wort, play Wort, your turn return Squee Survival for Ringleader flipping dudes and swing with hasty piledrivers.


Comments and discussions
I'm not sure if I should play 4 Warchief and 4 Ringleader, and I think I should. Since old Epic Elf Survival ran 4 Sylvan Messenger before Natural Order Prog was spoiled.

[Waikiki]

Wasn't survival and goblins done before?

[ebbitten]

This either looks really really good or really really bad, I'll tell you which in like 20 minutes after I test it.

Edit: No love for Lightning crafter + sacrifice outlet? I'm definitely testing that in the SB. Having a tutorable combo seems decent. Also with the slight lack of goblins (and the 2cc survival) i feel like piledriver should be cut over ringleader/warchief.

After very brief playtesting (2 games lol) I've found anger to be a bit overkill, I generally would prefer the 4th warchief. I'm also convinced that you should consider eternal witness as a sb target to help return survival in games that it gets destroyed and games that are going long.

[GGoober]

Yeah, I haven't time to finish the SB, but the possibilites are huge!

Did you like the Birds? Or do you think Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy would be better?

I forgot Crafter in the MD. Stupid me. Witness side is enough, I don't think she deserves a MD slot. I think we can do 4 Warchief instead of anger. Anger is good though in the deck. Warchief mainly makes us go out faster with hasty piledrivers although getting multiple red is a problem. I'll test out 2 Skirk Prospector over 4 Birds.

[Eseph]

This has been tried before, and generally it's just found that it can improve the late game some, but tends to detract a fair bit from the early game. And whatever game you had against Combo up and vanishes. If you really want to keep testing it I would strongly recommend at least 1 Lightning Crafter main, just to provide an alternate win in case of Moat, or other shenanigans. And at the very least 1 Skirk Prospector, or Fanatic (I'd recommend prospector), to help deal with Ichorid when need be.

[Zach Tartell]

The EPIC Syndicate does not approve this message.

[GGoober]

That's fine, I didn't know the word Epic is "copyrighted" by you guys. I'll call it Goblin Survival then. No need to be so protective about it, I always thought the word EPIC was used to make the names sound nicer, not sure if you guys invented all the EPIC decks (TEES, TES, TEPS) since I'm assuming the decks that they are today are the work of all the forum member and does not solely belong to a group. Glad to know maybe you guys did invent the deck from front to back, so I apologize for using the word EPIC.

[Zach Tartell]

That's fine, I didn't know the word Epic is "copyrighted" by you guys. I'll call it Goblin Survival then. No need to be so protective about it, I always thought the word EPIC was used to make the names sound nicer, not sure if you guys invented all the EPIC decks (TEES, TES, TEPS) since I'm assuming the decks that they are today are the work of all the forum member and does not solely belong to a group. Glad to know maybe you guys did invent the deck from front to back, so I apologize for using the word EPIC.

We definitely made the EPIC Storm and the EPIC Elf Survival. TEPS stands for "The Extended Perfect Storm" and refers to the Mind's Desire combo.

It's an honest mistake (and not even condescending there), and my internet penis isn't nearly long enough to even internet-hate you over it.

[GGoober]

Lol, thanks for clarifying that. I always thought and never understood what "Epic" is used in the names. I thought TEPS is Epic Perfect Storm lol.

Well, I'm assuming EPIC Elf Survival and EPIC Storm has changed quite a lot since its first creation (Elf Survival had no Natural Order/Progenitus and variants with NO-Prog + Mirror Entity variants were discussed heavily), and EPIC Storm has changed much too. So what should I call a variant of EPIC Elf Survival and TES? I guess we can just call it Elf Survival/NO Elf Survival and NLS or something. But you're right, I subconsciouly used EPIC (in caps too) for the title, subconsciously stealing your name. I apologize sincerely. (How do I change the title of the post?)

Anyway, if you can, comment as to why this deck is fail, because I'm seriously considering Goblin Survival as a competitive deck one day, if it's good. I'll proxy it up and test it up with a group of friends this weekend.

[TheCramp]

I would test chameleon colossus in this list. He has all the synergy with the goblins and is a super mana dump with rofellos.

[ebbitten]

I was actually going to recomend cutting rofelos. Without anger it loses something and the deck never seemed to want all that much green mana. I would also definitely recomend some enchantment hate out of the board, krosan grips working ok but i kind of want something that can kill more enchantments, maybe viridian zealot? Also as far as splash colors goes is Black the right move? It gives us a slightly better chance against combo but white would provide slightly better art/enchant hate.

I've found birds to be okay, not great I'll probably cut them in favor of more goblins. The ringleaders to me seem neigh uncuttable, they just are such a great topdeck if your opponent stops your early game.

Anyways heres the list i've tried out a couple times
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [R] Badlands
2 [R] Bayou
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [ALA] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Taiga
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [MOR] Warren Weirding

After more testing I've come to realize that this may be the most mana hungry deck I've ever played, the birds or some other form of mana acceleration may deserve a spot. Gemstone caverns anyone?

[chokin]

Doesnt Goblin Ringleader lose a lot of power when you're digging up creatures left and right? And shuffling after a Ringleader is like putting the junk you just removed back up somewhere higher in the deck. Just a note. Not sure if it's too affected by this.

[Bryant Cook]

Isn't 4 Warchief kind of redundant with Anger?

[GGoober]

I was suggesting 1 Anger, 3 Warchief. The deck actually doesn't has manaelves as regular survival does so Warchief acts as pseudo source of mana. Traditional Survival drops multiple copies of goyfs off rofellos, this deck drops multiple Piledrivers off Warchief, so I think at least 3 is needed, well at the very least, make the deck function even without a Survival. If you have additional warchiefs, you can always pitch them, but leaving one in play is good, just for the reduced cost of piledrivers.

@ebbitten: I think Rofellos is still needed, just to Survival and pay for colorless when playing out Goblins. I do think that Birds have to stay in the deck. If we get a goblin manaelf, that would be cool but for now, I think the mana acceleration is needed. It's really curious as to how mono-red goblins perform even without disruption (only disruption is with wastelands). I think this version of Goblins doesn't have Port luxury, but you always have Magus in the board to be tutored up against decks with weak manabase. I don't like Genesis too much. Wort is all you need, except when she gets removed. Genesis can be in the SB and if he's in the MD, Rofellos is much needed or we'll not be casting stuff.

The deck is weird since it's mana-hungry, but it has free outlets with vial and lackey, so I've been usually using my mana to tutor up removal and playing them while lackey/vial puts dudes into play.

[Anusien]

If you're just using Survival + Squee to draw a Goblin every turn, why not just run Sylvan Library instead? It slows the deck down less.

[GGoober]

I think the whole basis of Survival + Squee is that those two combinations ALONE generate enough advantage that your opponent is on a losing end, not to mention tutoring and having Genesis effects (wort) to bring back removal for free amounts to 2-tutoring effects a turn. If you really need the card advantage, Squee out Goblin Ringleader (don't forget that the deck also runs vial, so Survivaling out a vial target is viable as well). If you survival for Ringleader, you can recoup card advantage like traditional goblins.

This whole list is meant to improve the lategame, BUT also to give the deck a more explosive early game i.e. many times when playing goblins if your opponent has dealt with Vial/Lackey i.e. via Force/Daze, the deck becomes very weak. Now, decks have to deal with 3 early game spells: Survival, Vial, Lackey. I think the loss of Port and Matron is worth considering Survival. It also allows the list to run less targets e.g. 2 Siege gang, dropping it down to one, and gives a more flexible sideboard with tutor targets.

Playing Sylvan Library would up the non-goblin count for Ringleader, and it's not as impressive a play as Survival or any other option. The deck still wants to keep to the original list so that you can drop Ringleader off lackey and go nuts. In my list, I lost 4 Goblin count from Matron and 4 from Fanatic (other lists have dropped Fanatic for Relic etc) but I run more target and Squee + Wort + KikiJiki are all new additional targets so my overall goblin count is slightly lower from traditional lists.

[ebbitten]

I've found genesis to be very useful in many situations where wort simply doesn't work. Gensis helps you recover from sweepers and removal where as wort doesn't. As far as rofellos goes, i've found that i actually do need him quite badly. As far as warchiefs go I have found running 4 of them to be better than 3+anger simply because there aren't that many nongoblins in the deck that need haste.

[scrumdogg]

Worked on this sporadically several years ago, as the concept is very attractive. Several notes from our (never quite successful) experiment. Adding Anger + Witness(es) (I have an unhealthy obsession with that card...) was the wrong move, as you want to maximize Goblin numbers in the deck. With that being said, survivaling for Brawn (and then again) after blockers with a swinging Piledriver (or two) may the closest feeling to orgasm you can get out of a Magic play.... Genesis to return goblins is a fantastic mechanism, that sadly was too slow much of the time. Genesis as a back-up to Wort (usually returning the Wort for stupid Goblin recursion) seems much more viable (and nasty).

The ability to pinpoint cherry-pick Goblins in mid-game & hammer your opponent should make any aggressive player salivate. I am curious about sideboarding choices, though. Is it better to stick with a standard Goblin plan or to utilize the ability of the Survival to craft a different sideboard? What matchups have you been just sideboarding out the SotF package? I am curious as to your continued experiment & how it has been progressing.

[GGoober]

Here is my most recent testlist. I don't have the deck yet, but will be testing with friends this weekend (I need 4 Lackeys and Warchiefs and Siege gang to complete the deck).

DECKLIST: Goblin Survival
// Lands 23
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

// Creatures 29
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Squee
1 Rofellos
1 Anger

// Spells 8
4 AEther Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest


I'm still thinking about Goblin Chieftain (as spoiled in M10), but Warchief is more broken in this deck. Typical Survival decks try to gain an advantage and chain up to 4 Goyfs with Rofellos + Anger. This deck does so by using Rofellos + Anger + Red lands or Warchief + one red for each piledriver. Piledriver is insane.

Testing has shown that the manabase and manacurve for this deck is even more atrocious than regular goblins if one does not resolve lackey/vial. I've found the increasing need for RG dual-lands so I had to up to 6 of them (2 Stomping Ground). The deck is VERY explosive, and like Goblins, really relies on the explosive start to win the game. Have you ever thought about how a non-blue tribal deck does well against combo? You race. I've seen my friend raced a turn 2 Dreadnought with 3 hasted Piledrivers and won. This is the tribal deck that goes berserk.

I've had some incredible testings with:

Survivalling and playing multiple lackeys and swinging with Anger in the yard, ensuring that you at least drop 1 bomb. Survivaling for Wort to recur hasty lackeys/incinerator. In this deck, Gempalm incinerator is much better than Weirding even if you cannot deal lethal damage to goyf. The deal is it counts as a creature and that's important for Survival, which can grab you more and more Incinerators and a Siege-gang for the mid-late game. Squee Survival ensures so much card advantage that it's a little silly. I've played the deck and there were couple of annoyances. Dropping Survival on T2 is in fact a slow play, and you do so if you're expecting games to be slower e.g. against Landstill, NLU etc. It's too slow against combo, although you can board in discard against combo.

The thing I like about this deck so much is the improved mid-game. You can't always rely on early games for goblins to win the game, because what IF it drags till the mid-game? Goblins gets buried easily as decks grab out their answers. I took out Genesis because it was too much in the cute zone, so the only non-Goblin creatures now are Anger and Rofellos. Rofellos has been crucial, allowing me to generate lots of mana for Siege-gang activations and dropping creatures off a Ringleader. Anger is a MUST in the deck. It doesn't count as an Elf/Faerie but it's run in both Elf Survival and Bant Survival because the additional haste is a bonus. It's a non-StPable haste source since Warchief dies to so much hate, furthermore, it gives you more to use that green mana to tutor discard and give all you creatures haste, rather than risking Warchief getting StPed and slowing your game furthermore.

The deck now has actually some inbuilt synergy and combo. There's the Skirk Prospector/Kiki-Jiki/Crafter combo as explored by Esepth's Food chain Goblins, so the combo route is a bonus. The deck mostly beats down with hasty huge piledrivers, which can be tutored just as regular survival tutor for goyfs. One more thing. Sideboard options are HUGE. This deck can actually hose combo better than regular goblins with tutorable Earwig Squad. Regular survival involves dropping a Matron to tutor for one, which maybe too slow if you don't chain with Lackey. You can also tutor for Magus of the Moon if you need one, and lots of other Survival options, much more if you splashed white, but I wouldn't recommend it. More to be tested, and I'll post results if the deck is complete and does well!

I keep pondering to myself. Why is Survival of the Fittest's art a goblin killing another? I think to myself, I need to make this deck work and optimized to meet up to the card's (art) expectations :P

[morgan_coke]

This is very much in the area of danger of cool things, but should Braid of Fire get a look in this deck now that it's not horrible due to the removal of manaburn?

[GGoober]

Lol, what would braid of fire do though? It only adds mana during upkeep, which empties before the draw phase.

You can't play spells, but at most cycle incinerators and activate Siege gang. Its use is far too narrow. The only use I really see Braid of Fire is used for is some variant of UWr Landstill which wishes into Starstorm, Urza's Rage, Stroke of Genius :D