[Deck] GB(w?) Aggro control (v 0.0 build)

[ShadowOfTitans]

Hello all, it's been quite a while since I have played magic (quit and sold collection after saviors of kamigawa unfortunately) but I have recently returned as of last week, and have my sights set on the vintage format. I would like to try and develop a GB aggro control archetype that has a strong beginning game, but a very good long game with a recursion engine unlike the 'eva b/g' style decks. I threw together a prototype, and played a few matches with it on MWS last night.

This was the list that I ran, I'm sure it could use some tuning, since I'm a bit rusty in deckbuilding and deck synergies.

//Lands
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar wastes
4 Forest
7 Swamp
21 Total

//Spells
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Night's Whisper
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
3 Oversold Cemetery
19 total

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Eternal Witness
3 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Nether Spirit
20 total

60 cards maindeck

//sideboard
1-2 krosan grip
3 smother
2 viridian zealot (not sure about this guy here)
3 maelstrom pulse
3 engineered plague
2-3 pernicious deed?

The principles of the deck are pretty obvious. Try and control the early game with quick powerful creatures (shade, goyf), disruption (edict, duress, therapy) and card advantage (whisper, confidant). If that doesn't win the game early enough, it can setup a braids/cemetery engine, taking advantage of the synergy between those two cards, plus eternal witness and nether spirit. I chose to run braids over smokestack, because she is a bit less prone to removal than an artifact, although neither are very likely to be hit with counterbalance.

The possibility of splashing white in this deck is there, for staples such as vindicate and StP, I chose not to go that route in favor of other disruption, and a strong recursion engine. Kitchen Finks seems like it would be good here, although I'd like to stay away from double green outside of witness. Any thoughts or input would be appreciated. I don't know if this archtype will become a DTB ever, but I would like to try and develop it into something that can be competitive in the right metagame.

edit: forgot about pernicous deed, would be a bomb against hyper aggro decks, but not so good with the synergy I'm trying to build.

edit2: duh, Kitchen Finks can use only G mana as well, so it's not a splash card ^.^;;

[Media314r8]

I've played and tuned this deck for years, and it's always been good to me. I just missed winning 10 duals with it yesterday at origins due to my goyfsligh opponent topdecking a fireblast with me having lethal onboard to kill him next turn and chalice at 2 game three. (took second - couldn't find finks literally to save my life that game - I was at four and he was hellbent)

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Bayou
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [8E] Forest (1)
3 [P3] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Profane Command
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [8E] Choke
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague

[Waikiki]

Wow cool list but dont you miss goyf ?

[ShadowOfTitans]

decklist

Although it uses the same colors, I would in no way call this a similar deck. Yours is very much a long game control version (which I have played before, and also like) similar - but not identical - to the Rock. With my list, I am trying to push the advantage of all phases of a game (early, midrange, and late game) to my favor, and have 'must deal with' cards out all the time.

I do appreciate the feedback though!

SoT

[magicmoron]

You have a lot of cards that damage you.

Dark confindant
Nights whispers
Llanowar wastes
Overgrown Tombs

The lands I can understand (I assume it is a budget issue) but bob and whispers could wreck you in a long game alone. I also disagree with you that braids is less vulnerable to destruction than smokestack. Almost every deck in the format has MD creature removal, which is not the case with artifact removal.

My other concerns are how often oversold cemetery would come into play. You already have the Ewitnesses and nether spirit. Maybe, this slot would be better filled with Jitte. It could help improve the ass of your creatures, spot removal, and give life in the case of doing to much damage to yourself.

[ShadowOfTitans]

So what you would recommend is 3 smokestack in place of braids, and 3 jitte in place of the cemetery?

Wouldn't it be more of a card advantage engine to keep cemetery for more graveyard recursion? If you don't get witnesses or nether spirit, it makes stacks hurt too much. The cemetery was thrown in there so you could keep sac'ing to stax or braids, and keep getting creatures back without having to have those two creatures to recur from graveyard.

I'd agree that confidant and whispers is too much damage in card drawing...any suggestions on how to circumvent that? The cards that I'm looking at are phyrexian arena in place of confidant (guaranteed card at cost of one life, drawback is it can't swing and costs :b: more), or replacing a creature set with either ravenous baloth or kitchen finks.

edit: Here's a modified list taking some of the proposed changes into consideration.

Cemetery control, v0.9

//lands
4 bayou
4 overgrown temple
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
1 volrath's stronghold
5 swamp
4 forest
22 total

//creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 nantuko shade
3 eternal witness
3 nether spirit
3 ravenous baloth
17 total

//spells
3 smokestack
3 oversold cemetery
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
2 krosan grip
3 phyrexian arena (too slow? Need more card drawing to go with night's whisper)
3 night's whisper
21 total

sideboard
1 smokestack
3 pernicious deed
2 krosan grip
4 engineered plague
3 maelstrom pulse
2 viridian zealot

Thanks for the feedback, and keep the ideas coming.

SoT

[Michael Keller]

I would consider cutting the Oversold Cemetery and try going with Bitterblossom. This way, you'll have permanents to sacrifice each turn without having to worry about sacrificing creatures and subsequently recasting them. Hell, with Smokestack, you can even sacrifice the Blossom when things get too much. At the cost of one life per turn, that might be your best bet. Of course, you'll have to consider cutting some spells that deal serious amounts of damage to you.

Which brings me to my next point. I've tested builds similar to this before and I've actually liked the card Contamination in the sideboard. It's an effective lock component paired with Bitterblossom and can permanently shut down your opponent's mana foundation. It also has great synergy with Nether Shadow.

[Paradigm Shift]

My personal opinion is keeping Dark Confidant as a 3 or 4 of, and replacing Night's Whisper with Sensei's Divining Top. The card really is a house. It works excellently with fetchlands and Dark Confidant.

Also, I noticed you are running Ravenous Baloth, and I don't know if you have seen them yet, but the M10 Rule Changes make creatures with sac effects a slight bit weaker. I would suggest trying Kitchen Finks in Baloths slot, and making the Nether Shadows into other cards (I see what you are trying to do with Therapy, Cemetary, Smokestack, and giving you a haste attacker, but without any equipment to enhance him his 1/1 body seems too weak overall.) Perhaps try BoP, Shambling Shell, or even Hyppie (who is probably only good if your deck also uses the Birds, or Llanowar Elves.) Also, a copy of Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds (or a couple copies of either actually) seem like they would go a long way with your Smokestack, and are also synergistic with fetch+top, and recovering your Stronghold if it gets destroyed.

[ShadowOfTitans]

Bitterblossom is indeed an interesting card I will have to consider, thanks for pointing that one out. Contamination looks like a really nice silver bullet sideboard card.

I hadn't decided between finks and baloth, I wanted to test baloth first since he gains a bigger chunk of life back, and I wasn't really sure how finks worked if they went to the graveyard with -1/-1 counters on them. Anyone care to clear that one up for me? If I had to guess, they simply don't 'automatically' come back, and would have to be recurred after that somehow.

Either way, I'll test a few of these ideas soon.

edit: @ Paradigm Shift:

I'm not running nether shadow, I'm running nether spirit, to try and get 2 guys back a turn if possible, or just as a free sac outlet for smokestack.

[Media314r8]

Yours is very much a long game control version similar. With my list, I am trying to push the advantage of all phases of a game (early, midrange, and late game) to my favor, and have 'must deal with' cards out all the time.

With all due respect, you really only run two early threats, goyf and shade. (with shade being pretty weak as it needs about BBB to simply TRADE with goyf) You also run only duress and therapy with really, REALLY poor options as far as flashback is concerned. Other than that, I would say cards like smokestack, phyrexian arena, and oversold cemetary are all late-game cards.

Your deck seems torn between a traditional BGw rock deck with vindicates, dark confidants, and hymns and a pox deck with lock-out options and late-game 'eventuality' recursion. IMO you should either replace your late game slow card with vindicate/swords, and finks, or play a more controlling version.

tl/dr: if they go turn two goyf, and you don't have your own goyf, smokestacks/cemetary/arena are hardly 'must deal with' cards.

[ShadowOfTitans]

Your deck seems torn between a traditional BGw rock deck with vindicates, dark confidants, and hymns and a pox deck with lock-out options and late-game 'eventuality' recursion. IMO you should either replace your late game slow card with vindicate/swords, and finks, or play a more controlling version.


agreed. :smile:

I'm trying to figure out which direction that I want to go with it, I'm leaning a bit more toward a controlling version, but I'm testing an aggro build (with cards like troll ascetic, rancor, etc in place of the controlling/recursion elements)

[ShadowOfTitans]

Ok, so the deck has sort of evolved into two distinct archetypes, both of which I have been testing. This will probably be the last I'll post of either in this thread, as both decks are taking a different route than the original.

BGu aggro build (BuG Threshold)
I believe thatin the DTB someone has already built a threshold build using these colors, but focuses more on blue and uses a force of will build.

//creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 kitchen finks
4 wild mongrel
4 nimble mongoose
3 eternal witness
1 wonder
1 genesis
1 gigapede
20 total

//spells
3 intuition
4 smother
4 rancor
3 deep analysis
3 pernicious deed
3 diabolic edict
20 total

//lands
4 tropical island
3 undergroud sea
3 bayou
3 polluted delta
3 windswept heath
1 forest
1 island
1 swamp
1 city of brass

//sideboard
4 maelstrom pulse
4 krosan grip
4 chalice of the void
3 blue elemental blast


Control Build (BGw Stax)

//creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 kitchen finks
4 eternal witness
12 total

//spells
4 smokestack
4 vindicate
4 smother
3 night's whisper
4 duress
4 hymn to torach
2 life from the loam
25 total

//lands
4 bayou
4 badlands
4 overgrown tomb
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
1 city of brass
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
23 total