Zombies Tribal?

[Damnosus]

So I have seen some zombie decks on this website from time to time, but nothing super competitive. I was just wondering if you folks think that they will finally be competitive if this card was correctly spoiled:

(found on MTGS)

Cemetery Reaper
1BB
Rare
Creature – Zombie
Other Zombie creatures you control get +1/+1.
2B, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
2/2

This would give zombies a possibility of 12 decent lords (this, Lord of the undead, Death baron), as well as undead warchief (which is meh).

I am just looking for everyone's thoughts.

[Valtrix]

I don't think the amount of lords really will "break it." The thing it will probably still be inferior to goblins, merfolk, and even elves. I can't see why you would ever want to play zombies over any of those, even with more lords.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Looks like a fantastic Zombie. Still, on its own, it isn't enough. Zombies have a lot of great drops at 3+ cc, and a fair few hanging out in the 1-2 zone. What they lack, however, is the kind of versatility that Goblins, Elves, and Merfolk have. If we're building the deck based on the Goblins and Elves models, then it's obvious that while good, it's not enough (we need to rely on outside help, such as Jitte). If we build it on the Faeries model, then we run into similar problems.


Plus, you need to have a creature kicking around somewhere to use the ability. While it's feasible, it's probably not practical--at least, not in large quantities (3-4).


I love Zombies, and think that they're really on the cusp of competitive Legacy play. Unfortunately, they sort of lack their own niche at the moment.

[Skeggi]

Zombies will probably not be as good as Goblins or Merfolk, but with the new addition, has to be looked at again. It may have potential, I say ever so cautious.

[GGoober]

To be honest, running a deck of 3cc Lords might be viable, if one takes a disruption approach, which has been explored in the N&D section. But I think it's time to play out Vial, setting it @3 and playing disruptions turn 1-2, like Wasteland, Sinkholes, Thoughtseize, Hymn, and having the rest of the deck being just 3cc lords, which is not only out of CB range, but castable under ritual.

Maybe a really short list goes like this (thrown while typing this)

4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp

4 Aether Vial
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Death Baron
4 Cemetary Reaper
2 Graveborn Muse

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual

There's a total of 8 hand disruption effect, 8 land destruction, and 4 Swords, not to mention Deathtouch from Death Baron. Every creature is at least 2/2 and gets potentially bigger from the 12 lords. Reveilark can be pretty good in the SB against removal heavy deck. I've seen Lark + zombies and it was quite stupid lol.

All spells are castable from Ritual, except Tidehollow Sculler, which still makes a turn 2 play even after turn 1 Rituals. Graveborn Muse is much needed to draw back cards. Doesn't matter if you lose life. If you've drawn 3-5 cards a turn, you're most likely winning. Bob sometimes makes Thresh lose 5 life for 1 card, but this makes you lose 5 for 5 cards, and not to boot has a very aggressive creature base.

So the first turns involve Ritualling into Vial/Hymn/Sinkhole, and as long as vial is resolved, you don't have to hit your land drops and can use Wastelands freely without worrying about your manabase. I like running Zombie Traiblazer, so he might be more viable in a mono-B build which has its pros. But I think the white splash is better with Swords and Scullers or even Vindicates instead of Hymn.

[Bryant Cook]

Where's Withered Wretch?

[MTG-Fan]

Unless they print a lord like:

Zombie Overlord 1B
All Zombies you control have +2/+2, Fear, and cost 1B less to play.
2/2


I don't see Zombies ever being competitive. Sure they now have a veritable cornucopia of mediocre Lords to choose from, but nothing is really very powerful, and there is no reason to run Zombies over any other tribe like Merfolk, or Faeries, or even the standard lineup of Mono Black Aggro creatures like Nantuko Shade, Hyppie, or whatever else is being used in Suicide Black right now.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The problem is that Zombies don't offer anything as relevant as Haste (Goblins) or Islandwalk (Merfolk), and their control options aren't as good.

[Aggro_zombies]

It doesn't bode well for your tribe when your curve starts at three and goes up from there. The math works out something like this:

Discard < Counters
Deathtouch < Haste < Evasion
Phyrexian Arena < Standstill < Goblin Ringleader
Reanimation < Control = Horde

White-black zombies with Sculler and maybe Putrid Warrior, plus Swords and Vindicate, might be marginally playable.

[mujadaddy]

Zombies
Goblins
control options aren't as good.Can you explain that? Merfolk have counters, but what does Gobs have for control that Zombies couldn't?

[Aggro_zombies]

Can you explain that? Merfolk have counters, but what does Gobs have for control that Zombies couldn't?
Burn: zombies have no equivalent to either Seige-Gang Commander or Gempalm Incinerator, both of which are very good board control cards, or were (pre-M2010). It also doesn't help that their Wort equivalents require mana to use.

There's also the Goblins card advantage and creature swarm aspects, which zombies can't replicate.

[beastman]

If the guy called aggro zombies is saying it wont work, I guess I'll take that as confirmation.

[Damnosus]

Has anyone tried zombie tribal in a stompy shell (ancient tomb, city of traitors, etc.)? I know that the double black in the zombie lords really hinders such a deck, but something like trinisphere and chalice of the void would definitely slow the game down enough for the X number of lords to be more effective. Plus a second turn (or even first turn if you ran chrome mox and dark ritual) undead warchief, graveborn muse, or even scuta could be pretty cool. Not sure it would work though-mostly just a thought-if I could test it I would.

[(nameless one)]

Has anyone tried zombie tribal in a stompy shell (ancient tomb, city of traitors, etc.)? I know that the double black in the zombie lords really hinders such a deck, but something like trinisphere and chalice of the void would definitely slow the game down enough for the X number of lords to be more effective. Plus a second turn (or even first turn if you ran chrome mox and dark ritual) undead warchief, graveborn muse, or even scuta could be pretty cool. Not sure it would work though-mostly just a thought-if I could test it I would.

tried that, but you really need to be damn good in the art of mulliganing...

but honestly though, soldier decks have more potential being competitive legacy than zombies (especially with M10)....

there are a lot of good zombies... for multiplayer and casual

[Shugyosha]

A Mono-:b: Zombies deck won our local tournament (around 15) people yesterday and it's not the first time. Well it is not a large tourney but the decks are really competetive and I think you guys underestimate the speed Zombies can have.

-Carnophage is really really annoying for anything not red.

-Stromgald Crusader can win on its own against decks that only pack white removal trust me. I was in control of the board once but had no cmc2 spell for Balance and the guy simply came down and beat me to death while I looked at Swords and O-Ring in my hand.

-Hymn is still a very good card and fits the deck perfectly.

-Withered Wretch is good in many matchups and a surprisingly potent way to combat Goyfs.

-Divided between maindeck and sideboard you can play a lot of hard removal so aggressive decks don't seem to be a problem. You actually don't want to splash :w: for Swords/Path because lifegain is bad for your fast clock and basics are bad for the Wasteland disruption.

-The only problem I see with a monoblack build is Counterbalance but you can simply play more discard against it or Needle on Top.

-As for the new Lord: Cool card but you don't even need it. Lord of the Undead and Death Baron are enough.

[Mantis]

Something like this might work:

4 Vial
4 Dark Ritual

4 Nightscape Familiar
4 Rotting Giant/Withered Wretch
4 Skirk Ridge Exhumer

4 Cemetery Reaper
4 Lord of the Undead
2 Death Baron

4 Korlash/Undead Warchief
3 Grave Defiler

3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

If someone can figure out a way to get some adequate disruption in this list it might be pretty decent but probably no where near as good as Merfolk or Goblins.

EDIT: Carnophage and Entrails Feaster are possibilities for the 1CC slot. Thoughtseize, Hymn, Sinkhole, Duress and Confidant are also options that could be explored.

[MTG-Fan]

Graveborn Muse for card advantage?

[Finn]

Look into the 1 drops to curve out properly.. There are a few good ones.

[Eldariel]

Zombie curve doesn't work out. They can't really play out as Goblins due to the inferior card advantage and early game engines (not to mention, lack of Haste), and they can't really play out as Merfolk due to the slower, clumsier curve (Merfolk focus on 2 with some 3-drops; Zombies have a number of 3-drops with some 4-drops) and distinct lack of blue.

They'll really need a niché of their own to work out. As it stands, they don't really do anything. Elves have their nutty mana engines, Goblins have their mana cheats, speed and card advantage engines (and removal), Merfolk have their counter support, card advantage and efficient Lords. Zombies just have nothing right now (save for slow recursion, but that doesn't seem like The Key to rule the format).


Frankly, I'd rather try Clerics as a black tribe, just 'cause Rotlung Reanimator, Dark Supplicant and Cabal Archon give them some decent tribal effects maybe worth building around. No, they wouldn't be much good either, but probably better than Zombies.

[morgan_coke]

I dunno, I think Zombies has a bit more potential that a lot of you are giving it credit for. If you focus on the early curve and LD, you can go mean pretty quick.

Acceleration
4x Aether Vial
4x Dark Ritual

Draw
4x Grave Defiler

Beats
4x Carnophage
4x Sarcomancy
4x Knight of Stromgald
4x Death Baron
4x Lord of the Undead
1x Gempalm Polluter

LD
4x Sinkhole
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

Swamps
15x Swamp

A deck like this can take apart even a basic heavy manabase while still applying quick pressure and drawing cards (albeit not as well as goblins does). Vs. aggresive strategies you can board in things like Tendrils of Corruption/Damnation and vs. combo you can bring in Hymns and Duress'. Also, first strike + deathtouch = massive win. The b/w hybrid zombie knight might also belong in here.

EDIT: here's the curve on that list: 1cc - 16, 2cc - 9, 3cc - 8, 4cc - 4. That looks like a pretty aggressive curve to me, and one that can curve out fairly well, especially when you take port/waste into account.

[(nameless one)]

has anyone tried zombie full on control?

land disruption, we have wasteland, zombie trailblazer

then we can run oversold cemetery and bunch of cycling zombies and maybe fluctuator for CA

[MTG-Fan]

I want to find some way to play HELLDOZER competitively. :(

[Aggro_zombies]

I want to find some way to play HELLDOZER competitively. :(
There used to be a deck like this. It was :b::g: control deck using Cabal Coffers and was designed by IBA. I forget what it was called, though.

[GGoober]

I belive it's called Trainwreck

Not sure if Tomstone ran Helldozer as well. Probably not.

[MTG-Fan]

I hear there are going to be some sick new Zombies in Zendikar, so maybe this will be a competitive deck after all.

[FoolofaTook]

You'd think that they'd print a few zombies with dredge very low on the curve and make zombies the reanimator tribe. They'd really need to print a lackey equivalent like this to get it started:

Shambling Digger :b:

Creature - Zombie (1/1)

Sacrifice Shambling Digger: target creature gets 0/-1 until end of turn.

Dredge 5

That'd give Zombies an early play that had complete relevance to what the deck was trying to do and that was in line with the Legacy curve.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

I hear there are going to be some sick new Zombies in Zendikar, so maybe this will be a competitive deck after all.

If this is true, Zombies could potentially be sick in standard. Mono-B is looking up as well...

[whienot]

My fingers are crossed for a zombie scarecrow.

[Malchar]

There's always festering goblin for the 1cc slot. When all else fails, you can just add more black goblins to round out the deck. :tongue:
Theoretically, zombies should have a much better game than goblins does against combo. The biggest advantage that zombies get is hand disruption and amazing 1st turn plays involving dark ritual.

[keys]

Festering Goblin is almost better than Fanatic, since it can take down two 1/1s or a X/2 in combat.

[FoolofaTook]

There's always festering goblin for the 1cc slot. When all else fails, you can just add more black goblins to round out the deck. :tongue:
Theoretically, zombies should have a much better game than goblins does against combo. The biggest advantage that zombies get is hand disruption and amazing 1st turn plays involving dark ritual.

The problem is that Zombies has nothing that it can reasonably do to win the game on turn 4. Lackey gives Goblins that potential. Garruk can push Elves over the top. Merfolk is a special case because of all the counter magic potential and Stifle/Wasteland. Zombies doesn't have an "oops I win" opening that occurs off of the normal progression that you'd expect a weenie aggro deck to follow. This is mainly because there is no great 1cc drop to start the sequence and no great turn 3 drop to win turn 4.

You give Zombies a real 1cc dredge resource and there is enough out there in the mix for them already that they could probably find that turn 4 win.

[SilverGreen]

The problem is that Zombies has nothing that it can reasonably do to win the game on turn 4.In general terms, it's supposed red's the color of explosive starts and short-ended games. Black, with all its hand disruption, recursive spells and removals, is more suited for long-duration attrition wars. I think we don't need to treat all the tribal strategies the same way, it simply doesn't make any sense. As someone stated here before, a black tribal-aggro deck, be it zombies or clerics or thrulls or will-of-the-wisps, could possibly have a better - yet slower - gameplan versus combo than its fellows, for example.

Furthermore, I think the idea of playing towards Rotlung Reanimator loops, sacrifice outlets, Withered Wretches and Living Deaths is very sexy!

[troopatroop]

I've been playing around with Zombies since I got a couple of the new lords, and while it's not spectacular, it's been really fun. I've been playing without Dark Ritual... Going for more threat density. I think the weakest thing about Zombies is the lack of a really good 2 drop, and I think Tidehollow Sculler is gonna have to do. He's pretty sick through Vial, but so is Mirror Entity.

4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Withered Wretch
2 Mirror Entity

4 Death Baron
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Cemetary Reaper

That's the best I could come up with. It's been good to me so far.

[SilverGreen]

I'll try something myself:

4 Withered Wretch
4 Fleshbag Marauder / Lord of the Undead
4 Rotlung Reanimator
4 Cemetery Reaper
4 Death Baron
3 Graveborn Muse

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Umezawa's Jitte / Hymn to Tourach / Sinkhole / spot removal
2 Living Death / Oversold Cemetery

16 Swamp
3 Unholy Grotto
4 Wasteland

SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Smother
SB: 3 Cabal Interrogator
SB: 2 Grave Pact
SB: 1 Living Death

I'm looking here for the internal sinergies any tribal deck must have. At first glance there's some interesting ones, and feel free to point out the cons. I found no good enough 1 and 2-drop zombie that's worth the slot, and as we're not a so aggresive build, I really think this time can be better spent playing some combination of disruptive spells; that said, the action really starts at cmc3, and the better zombies available are in this slot. The heavy curve 3 also helps avoid CB triggers and vialing out tricks/pumps/removals onto the field. And as the game progresses (if you can afford the time), you tend to have a lot more gas than your opponent, stalling the field or drawing 3-4 cards per turn.

Some cards I think are worth of note:

- Rotlung Reanimator: is a fine attrition weapon that can stall the field for long enough for you get other engines working, specially when paired together with Withered Wretch or a lord (and is totally nuts with a Death Baron in play).

- Withered Wretch / Cemetery Reaper: beyond shrink graveyards (play without GY hate is total suicidal tendency in my meta), they set up the stage for what can be the game-breaking bomb of the deck, Living Death.

- Death Baron: I see it as the best zombie lord printed at this time. In such a slow and recursive tribe, its ability to turn each ground combat loss into an advantageous trade is very impressive, specialy when you don't lose cards in the process (with Rotlung's and Reaper's tokens). Few creatures pass Tombstalker are able to surpass ground deathtouchers nowadays.

- Flashbag Marauder: They're SB stuff I guess, but I can't think of a better MD option right now. It kills Stalkers and Mongeese and Legendary Gargantuan Hydras and Lhurgoyfs of all sorts and shapes, trades with all Zoo's non-Goyf beaters (or eats the very same burn spell 3-assers do), and paired with Unholy Grotto it may clear any non-Goblin, non-Elf field in the long run. I definitely would run 4 in my 75.

- Cabal Therapy: I always loved this card's ability to generate disruption and card advantage at the same time, specially in such a deck able to flashback it with no card losses at all. Unfortunatelly, it doesn't work so well as a deck's sole Duress-effect, unless the local meta is very well defined, so it goes to the SB.

- Grave Pact: It used to be my MVP during old ONS-MIR Std (when I played monoB Clerics at Regionals), but miss Cabal Archon here. Perhaps we could play Carrion Feeder to power it up. Or perhaps it isn't really Legacy stuff, I don't know...

Thoughts?

[(nameless one)]

i saw a cleric-grave pact engine before and its legacy tourney worthy...

it had a lot of hand disruption and relied on late game grave pact/cabal archon...

if you can incorporate that with zombies, it would be cool

i see zombies not as turn 4 win tribe, more like control tribe like merfolks...

play early hand disruption and late game bombs. i like the idea of living dead there... even the time spiral version of living dead (if youre going for the budget)

i am a tribal fanatic and i would love to see zombies as mono-black tribal (i already have merfolks, goblins and elves)