[SCD] Engineered Plague & M10

[GreenOne]

Legacy has a good amount of tribal decks. Between Goblins, Merfolks, Elves and Slivers seems like Engineered Plague should be a good card to run in your SB.

However, tribes are getting more and more lord effects as time passes by, and many tribes are also populated by hordes of 2/2s, and playing less and less 1/1s.

Engineered Plague is not the permanent wrath only on the opponent that it was once.

Question is, with the printing of a decent maindeckable Lord even for Goblins (gives +1+1 ot other goblins and Haste to everyone), and with the printing of even more playable (even good) lords for Merfolk and Elves, is/should Engineered Plague still going to be in people's SBs?


EDIT: The same question can be posed with Pyroclasm as subject. But Pyroclasm suffers less from Lord Effects (2 lords needed to nullify it)

[Otter]

I would rather play Tsabo's Decree and hope to god that I hit six mana :rolleyes: . Not only is Plague incredibly unreliable due to lord plans, but if it's actually being useful, they can blow it away with the hate they're packing for CB/Top. Obviously your other options depend on your colors, but at least against Elves I'd much rather have a Perish these days. It gets Goose, Goyf, and Progenitus too.

Edit -- Maybe some sort of combination of Darkblast and Plague could work?

[Michael Keller]

Question is, with the printing of a decent maindeckable Lord even for Goblins (gives +1+1 ot other goblins and Haste to everyone), and with the printing of even more playable (even good) lords for Merfolk and Elves, is/should Engineered Plague still going to be in people's SBs?

The problem with Engineered Plague against the tribal powerhouse that is Merfolk (essentially) is that Engineered Plague is too slow. With all of their available pump effects, a more definitive solution to killing their creatures would be more efficient. Engineered Plague would be all right, but I don't see them having a problem getting around it too much.

Which brings me to my next point: If you are running black to support Plague, there should be no reason why you don't run some sort of removal other than Plague to support whatever it is you're playing. It just really depends on exactly what you are playing and how pertinent your sideboard strategy is in the Merfolk match. I'm sure the combo player doesn't rely too much on Plague rather than Pyroblast, which solves a problem instantly. Whereas, a B/w variant might use Plague because it wants to establish position.

[Nihil Credo]

It depends (duh!) on how much you can capitalize on the -1/-1 effect.

Decks that either a) have plenty of other removal to kill the Lords or b) have a solid creature plan of their own can easily turn the tide of battle with a single Plague. Survival, Rock, and Sui variants come to mind. Red decks could too, if they wanted to take the control role against tribal aggro.

On the other side, if you're Landstill or CounterTop and your non-mass removal consists just of 4 StP... yeah, they've been kinda meh for a while. They still have the significant bonus of distracting their Krosan Grips from your other bombs like Humilities/Shackles/CounterTop/Jitte, depending on your build, but Threads of Disloyalty or Mind Harness probably do that better.

Another option to make good use of Plague is if you can cheat and reliably find multiple copies of it, but I can't think of any deck that is built to do that today - it basically would mean playing both black mana and at least 4x Enlightened Tutor.

[from Cairo]

they've been kinda meh for a while.

^ This. Personally, I haven't been that impressed with Plague as a Tribal answer for a while now.

As Nihil explained, they are still ok in the board of creature decks, Eva Green, or Survival or something, since those decks have their own creatures to apply pressure, they can capitalize on the -1/-1 in creature combat. For more controlling decks I'd much prefer a board sweeper effect (Firespout, Volc Fallout, Wrath of God, etc), as the -1/-1 often isn't fast enough.

[TOGITwill]

Endemic Plague never seemed like it was that bad of an option. Wrath on your opponents side only? Okeeday. Sounds good to me.

[Mark Sun]

Endemic Plague never seemed like it was that bad of an option. Wrath on your opponents side only? Okeeday. Sounds good to me.

Would only be effective with a Mutavault or something that covers all creature types. Imo, not close to a viable alternative.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Overall, I've been happy with Plagues--so long as they weren't my only out against tribal aggro. As with any sideboard card, it needs to complement a strategy rather than create one. Even against Merfolk, I've found the boost quite helpful. But--and this is key--Plague doesn't form the cornerstone of my tribal sideboarding strategy. I already maindeck nine forms of removal (two mass, three pseudo-mass), as well as a few different ways to recycle them and seven counterspells. Accordingly, plugging in Plague just ups my count and slows the aggro player long enough for me to develop a more favourable board position.

Nonetheless, its usefulness is certainly diminishing. If tribes start running any more lords (or useful 2+ toughness critters), then I'll probably consider the other options much more carefully.

[TOGITwill]

Would only be effective with a Mutavault or something that covers all creature types. Imo, not close to a viable alternative.

Doh, probably should have read the entire card and not just go off what I thought it did.

*Bashes head against wall*

[Mark Sun]

Overall, I've been happy with Plagues--so long as they weren't my only out against tribal aggro. As with any sideboard card, it needs to complement a strategy rather than create one. Even against Merfolk, I've found the boost quite helpful. But--and this is key--Plague doesn't form the cornerstone of my tribal sideboarding strategy. I already maindeck nine forms of removal (two mass, three pseudo-mass), as well as a few different ways to recycle them and seven counterspells. Accordingly, plugging in Plague just ups my count and slows the aggro player long enough for me to develop a more favourable board position.

Nonetheless, its usefulness is certainly diminishing. If tribes start running any more lords (or useful 2+ toughness critters), then I'll probably consider the other options much more carefully.

Yeah, some current "fixes" are to pretty much double up on StP with Path to Exile, add in the Plagues, and maybe a Vedalken Shackles. Tons of removal should be okay. I'm interested to see how M10 affects everything, though, sans speculation but actually in action.

[Tilde]

If the lords are good enough to make plague less effective, they'll be good enough to make tribal decks more popular; sounds like a wash to me.

[deadlock]

While talking about the viability of Plague against post M10 tribal and how bad it might be, posting alternatives would be quite helpful.
I am currently building NLU (Ugb) and stand for exactly this problem, what hate i should bring against Tribal (and other heavy aggro).

The Plague option would be something like:
4 Plague
2 Darkblast
With the already mentioned problems this configuration has.

Currently i am leaning towards:
2 Jitte (12 creatures maindeck)
+x,
possible paths or a combination of the following:
-Mass removal (EE and/ or Deed)
-More spot removal (not that good in a deck that doesnt play white)
-Shackles
-Do or Die? :laugh:

Other ideas / comments?

[jazzykat]

Plagues also slow down the opponents clock and if you have counterspells to stop the lords you do have some time to find a second.

[Skeggi]

I mostly use Plagues against Landstill and Goblins. They work against Merfolk, but not as effective than Goblins because of the Lord effects. When Goblins would incorporate their new lord, it wouldn't work on Goblins as well as it did before. So theoretically the new lords make it less attractive to use Engineered Plague. Pernicious Deed would be better in alot of cases. Although I did use Plague lately on Death & Taxes 1 naming Human and 1 naming Elemental...

[GreenOne]

I mostly use Plagues against Landstill
???

[Skeggi]

Soldiers, GreenOne. Elspeth and Decree of Justice are dead.

[4eak]

I think Plagues can still be very good when coupled with other cards, and even by itself, it remains a strong tempo play. The fact that it can't be always expected means that many Tribal decks won't always be sure about whether they should side in Grip or not.

I think one of the larger reasons for Plague's decline is the heightened presence of Green (for Goyf) that enables decks to play Pernicious Deed instead of Engineered Plague.

The reliance upon generic board sweepers like Deed and EE makes a lot of sense, as Plague only hits creatures, while sweepers remain much more versatile (against CB, or whatever).

I think sorcery sweeping also competes with Plague. Firesprout is a pretty good upgrade to Pyroclasm, and both of these aren't specific about creature types. The ability to sweep all creatures, not just a specific type, is pretty relevant in many metagames. I consider these sweepers most effective against many Zoo decks. As for tribal, Firesprout paired with any removal, targeted damage, or blocking will usual clear a multi-lord board.




peace,
4eak

[Mark Sun]

Doh, probably should have read the entire card and not just go off what I thought it did.

*Bashes head against wall*

Haha. Well, I don't think it's a bad idea in UWb Wishstill, since Factories can be kinda-replaced with Mutavaults. I'm more of a fan of dropping Plague and just using StP or something to get rid of the pumper if possible. And the Shackles. Kinda important too.

That said, annoying shit like Scion of Oona... :mad:

[keys]

I'm pretty sure Plague gets better with more tribal... Yeah, Lords negate the effect, but that's what point removal is for.

[FoolofaTook]

Another option to make good use of Plague is if you can cheat and reliably find multiple copies of it, but I can't think of any deck that is built to do that today - it basically would mean playing both black mana and at least 4x Enlightened Tutor.

Or Lim-Dul's Vault as a 4-of, which I would love to work into Landstill but I think would be much better in a CounterTop build.

[Nessaja]

When you feel tribal is a problem I'd be much more afraid of Zoo. I'd rather run a SB slot that also hits Zoo in that scenario.

[beastman]

While I believe that the addition of the new lords will make engineered plague less usefull, I believe it will continue to rise in use because genocide can be fun.

[Gibbie_X]

When you feel tribal is a problem I'd be much more afraid of Zoo. I'd rather run a SB slot that also hits Zoo in that scenario.

I have to agree here.

I have a question for the masses, what Tier 1-3 deck would play Engineered Plague. As people have stated before, black has some good point and mass creature removal. In Legacy, I can't really see a deck play it over something that will actually take care of the problems instead of making them smaller.

Frankly I am apprehensive about M10, with what they are going to do to the rules and what not. And frankly I'm pissed that they are re-releasing Lightning Bolt and not Dark Ritual. But I'm going to start a thread about that myself.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I have to agree here.

I have a question for the masses, what Tier 1-3 deck would play Engineered Plague. As people have stated before, black has some good point and mass creature removal. In Legacy, I can't really see a deck play it over something that will actually take care of the problems instead of making them smaller.

Frankly I am apprehensive about M10, with what they are going to do to the rules and what not. And frankly I'm pissed that they are re-releasing Lightning Bolt and not Dark Ritual. But I'm going to start a thread about that myself.

The difference is that Plague is first and foremost a preemptive spell, whereas most removal is reactive. You're right, Damnation and company have the advantage of getting rid of the offending creatures. There is a downside, however: they require those creatures to already be in play. And they're not problems until they're in play. Plague's main advantage is that once it hits the board, it wipes out weenies and dampens your opponent's attack phase (assuming you have your own creatures in play), creates dead draws (for your opponent), and opens up the remaining creatures to whatever spot removal you have.

Obviously, there are also common situations when Plague is less useful. But the primary reason to run it rather than other mass removal is precisely because cautious players don't often over-commit. What's the point of wiping out four goblins if the next turn just sees two or three more enter the battlefield? You've only delayed your demise, rather than actually turning the tides. This is why Pernicious Deed is such a great card.

Ultimately, I think it just comes down to a critical mass of supporting structures in your deck, and a critical mass of lords in your opponent's.