Mono White Vial Aggro

[nightmaster]

I have been building a mono white deck using vial that is different than Death and Taxes. I don't want it to be D&T because I don't like what happens to it post rules change. I have some different ideas of where the deck can go. I am well aware that combo will still be very difficult. I am not focusing on that right now as I rarely play against combo anyway and the sideboard will contain combo hate. Ok, here is the core of the deck:

Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes (Removal protection)
4 Serra Avenger (Great with vial)
4 True Believer (Can randomly disrupt the opponent like stopping discard)
3 Jotun Grunt (Great to vial in respose to attackers)

Other:
4 Aether Vial (Part of its namesake. Avoid counters, provides combat tricks, and leaves mana open for other things)
4 Swords to Plowshares (Spot removal)
2 Umezawa’s Jitte (Just too good to pass up)
1 Mask of Memory (Card draw)

Land:
17 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair

45 Cards

From here I have 4 different options I can go. This is where I would like some input on which option would be the most powerful.

Option 1:
+4 Soltari Priest
+4 Silver Knight
+3 Oblivion Ring
+1 Mask of Memory
+1 Umezawa’s Jitte
+2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
This is the most aggressive of the options, adding in the most creatures and equipment. Oblivion Ring acts as more removal of a variety of things.

Option 2:
+4 Soltari Priest
+4 Silver Knight
+4 Mana Tithe
+2 Oblivion Ring
+1 Mask of Memory
This is similar to the first but decides to go a little more controlling. Mana Tithe has its uses and late game can be discarded to Mask.

Option 3:
+1 Jotun Grunt
+4 Knight of the Holy Numbus
+4 Mana Tithe
+4 Armageddon
+1 Flagstones of Trokair
+1 Mask of Memory
This option tries to abuse Armageddon. Mana Tithe and Knight become much better post Armageddon. Also, it becomes very easy to keep a Jotun Grunt around for a while.

Option 4:
+4 Soltari Priest
+4 Silver Knight
+3 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Ancient Den
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Parallax Wave
+1 Aura of Silence
The last option involves a Enlightened Tutor Toolbox. Parallax Wave for removal, Aura for artifacts and enchantments, and Runed Halo for utility. Tutor is also good since it can go get equipment.

The sideboard for the deck differs between options so for now I won't post it.

Thoughts?

[The Wes]

May I suggest Aven Mindcensor? Its so much fun to mess with fetching, tutoring, and combat math.

[XSivPSI]

8-Spells
4 Armageddon
4 Swords to Plowshares

25-Creatures
3 Isamaru, hound of Konda
3 Mother of runes
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Soltari Priest
4 Tarmogoyf

7-Artifacts
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

20-Lands
4 Ancient tomb
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Plains
4 Windswept heath
4 Savannah


I played something like this a while ago with chant's and grips and cataclysm and such in the side. I don't remember the exact deck list.

Tomb gets Jitte and Geddon online alot faster

Not much help I know but if you have goyfs try the green splash, he is awesome and vial doesn't care if you have forests or not.

[keys]

I would run Qasali Pridemage instead of Soltari Priest if you're doing the splash. One or two Horizon Canopy could be good, too.

[XSivPSI]

I would run Qasali Pridemage instead of Soltari Priest if your doing the splash. One or two Horizon Canopy could be good, too.

Yea that sounds good. I didn't know about him. It might be better to drop hounds though b/c its nice to be able to attack through beef with a priest, especially carrying a jitte. I haven't been playing much at all over the last year or so and am contemplating selling my collection.

[Paradigm Shift]

If you run the E. Tutor toolbox, definitely maindeck an O. Ring, and sideboard Rule of Law and Ghostly Prison (and if it seems worth it, Supression Field.)

You could try a singleton copy of Steelshaper's Gift in the maindeck, because it's not card disadvantage like E. Tutor is, and allows inclusions of singleton equipment like SoFI and SoLS, and acts as an extra copy of MoM or Jitte.

Also, consider Pulse of the Fields in the board, because it can allow you to race and then win out of nowhere in aggro mirrors, and just totally owns burn, especially post-M10.

[TheCramp]

Glowrider

[MasterC]

Silver Knight isn't good anymore. Protection from Red is completely useless except against goblins and maybe sligh.
And 2/2 First Strike isn't too impressive as well.

I would rather play Samurai of the Pale Curtain, who cripples a huge amount of legacy decks.

[MTG-Fan]

I ran something like this in Extended.

- True Believer is indeed very sick in this type of deck because he will completely shut down discard effects, and even stuff like Gifts Ungiven and Mindslaver (more relevant in Ext tho).

- One option that I tried is Stillmoon Cavalier. He has both Pro:Black and Pro:White and some pump effects. He was decent in Ext, I don't know if he's costed efficiently enough for Legacy.

- Burrenton Forge-Tender is amazing against many decks. Not only will he stop stuff like Goblins, but you can also sac him to Bridges, sac him to stop a burn player's entire turn, etc. I would definitely put him in the sideboard, maybe even maindeck. I think this guy has sort of taken the place of Silver Knight as the red hoser.

- Kitchen Finks is costly but an interesting option.

- You should look into Figure of Destiny. He's a weenie that will stay relevant at every stage of the game.

- Someone else had a weenie deck that ran Weathered Wayfarer. It was kind of interesting in that Wayfarer could fetch stuff like Wasteland repeatedly.

Enchantments:

- Worship is an interesting way to hose alot of decks if you can ensure that you will have creatures on board at all times.

- I know it sounds janky, but if you're running alot of guys with multiple white symbols in their mana cost, there is this enchantment called Light from Within that sort of turns them ridiculous. With one on the board, each successive guy you play will be buffed regardless of removal. It's kind of like a super Crusade for white weenies. I ran it in Standard and Extended and it was quite cool... haven't tried it in Legacy yet.

Maybe if you run the E-Tutor package, you can include these as 1-ofs or something.

Splashing green will open you up to several excellent options: Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg, Tarmogoyf, etc.

[kidsmokin]

A quick run-through yields me this list, synthesizing a bit here and there:

// Lands
8 [ALA] Plains (2)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [10E] True Believer
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
2 [ON] Exalted Angel
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 1 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

SB is obviously rough as heck, hence only "4" slots filled. Some notes about the main:

1. G splash opens up Goyf, which I had to knock down to 3-of sadly, and Qasali Pridemage, and good SB options like Teeg, so that seemed worthwhile.
2. No eTutor toolbox, because there isn't room, and you have plenty of pseudo-disruption main.
3. Every mono-W deck is required by law to MD O-Rings.
4. Exalted Angel could probably go, but I have a soft spot for her and perhaps she can win you fights out of nowhere. Probably can get cut for an extra Goyf and an extra of something else, i.e. Serra Avenger, Qasali Pridemage or Samurai of the Pale Curtain.
5. Only thing about Wg is no REB/BEB :(, but splashing U doesn't seem worthwhile (no critters of good use), and R makes you a slower Zoo deck. So neither option is good.
6. I also don't like Mana Tithe. Got to be proactive.
7. I have no real good idea as to what SB options W has.

[MTG-Fan]

I just thought of something else that's kind of janky but fun:

If you're running Aven Mindcensor, you could run Ghost Quarter and it wouldn't be terrible as long as you had the Mindcensor in play. Then you could do a sort of LD theme with 4 Ghost quarter and 4 Wasteland. Of course, if your opponent is playing ANY basics and you can't consistenlty get Mindcensor in play, it's terrible, but it still is kind of cute.

[nightmaster]

Ok, so I am getting the feeling that from the options I listed before either 1 or 4 is the way to go. Basically, do I want to go aggro or do I want an E-Tutor Toolbox?

Samurai of the Pale Curtain: The only problem I have with him is he works againt Jotun Grunt. I know Samurai is good but I don't feel like I can run both. Maybe switch Samurai for Silver and Grunt for something.

Figure of Destiny: Yep, got to work on getting some.

3cc Creatures: The deck usually likes to put vial on 2. Is having 3cc creatures (Mincensor, Cavalier, Finks) going to go against this or will there not be enough to change anything?

[NERER0CKET]

It wont really go against the grain, multiple vials will equal multiple counters. 2cc's to consider are Knight of the white orchard, or knight of meadowgrane.

[The Wes]

The deck does seem to be turning more and more into a w/g angel stompy list. If you wanted to take it back a bit you could always go the armageddon route and add winbornmuse in for fun.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
With the m10 just on the horizons alot of nice cards could boost a white winnie deck (Honor the Pure, Harm's Way, etc). Having that said even with those addition is it better compared to D&T ? I don't know but D&T is a solid deck and i think is has the best matchup against the current meta in legacy if you want to play a white aggro deck. It has lots of answers to your opponents tricks and threats.

I don't know if D&T would use m10 but im guessing it will cause stonecloaker has lost its magic combat tricks because of the of m10 combat rules, maybe it would be cut in the D&T lineup.

D&T slowly is ditching its higher curve cards like cataclysm which was replaced by erthersworn canonist and now maybe stonecloaker... maybe after m10 D&T would just become a vial aggro white deck... but who knows im not the creator of D&T.

I've played angel stompy pre goyf and goblins where all over the place. It was a very very good deck thats most of the time has good finishes in tournys. Im sure anyone who tried angelstompy before would agree to me on this.

I hope another competitive white winnie deck could come out after this m10, soldier deck maybe ?

[nightmaster]

@erbs: do you think that Angel Stompy, despite being outdated, if given maybe some of the same chages (Aven Mindcensor, FoD) could be better than this? I have the cards for Angel Stompy too so I could go that route instead.

Otherwise, here is an updated lst:

Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Serra Avenger
4 True Believer
4 Soltari Priest
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Aven Mincensor

Other Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Mask of Memory

Land:
19 Plains

[Rizso]

Shouldnt sword of fire and ice be considered? Priests and angels carring the swords and the other equipments and fly over your enemies tarmogoyfs.

Also think some Crusade effects should be used. Crusade or the new Honor of the Pure in m10

[nightmaster]

What do you think is a better creature to use that still has a disruptive element, True Believer or Aven Mindcensor? I feel like having too many disruptive creatures is lowering the quality of my creatures in combat. Aven flies and is useful against fetchlands and tutors. True Believer is probably more disruptive but bad in combat.

So which do you think?

[freakish777]

Have you considered Augery Adept? They swing with dudes, you end step a card drawing creature with Vial, seems pretty good (and the random life gain can't hurt).

Also, I'd encourage some testing with Mana Tithe + Wastelands.

Figure of Destiny should definitely be a 4 of, True Believer really doesn't do what you want it to (ANT just goes "Oh, that's cute, I'll play Ad Nasuem, reveal 15 cards, one of which is Slaughter Pact, gg?").

If you're deciding between Samurai and Jotun Grunt, you always go with the Grunt. That guy is ridiculous. Getting in for 8 over 3 turns and then having your guy die is almost always better than getting in for 8 over 5 turns.


My immediate recommendations are:

-4 True Believer
+2 Figure of Destiny (if your opponent ever tries to steal him with Sower of Temptation remember you can turn him back into a 2/2 for :w:)
+2 Augury Adept
-4 Samurai
+4 Jotun Grunt

My secondary recommendations are (as in I'm less sure of them):

-1 Aven Mindscensor
-1 Mother of Runes
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Soltari Priest
-3 Plains
+4 Wasteland
+3 Mana Tithe

[MTG-Fan]

Have you considered Augery Adept? They swing with dudes, you end step a card drawing creature with Vial, seems pretty good (and the random life gain can't hurt).


Augury Adept is a cool card, but I think he's a tad overcosted for Legacy. Also, how often do you think he'll actually connect and not just run into a Goyf wall and die, or get Plowed on sight?



Figure of Destiny should definitely be a 4 of, True Believer really doesn't do what you want it to (ANT just goes "Oh, that's cute, I'll play Ad Nasuem, reveal 15 cards, one of which is Slaughter Pact, gg?").


Of course he won't protect you from Combo (although he will win some G1s against them - how many ANT lists run Slaughter Pact pre-board?), but he will randomly stop your opponent from Hymning/Thoughtseizing you long enough for you to win with your dudes, or randomly win Burn matchups for you by drawing enough fire away from your head for you to survive.

[freakish777]

Augury Adept is a cool card, but I think he's a tad overcosted for Legacy. Also, how often do you think he'll actually connect and not just run into a Goyf wall and die, or get Plowed on sight?

Again, your plan is to Vial him in. If your opponent is StPing your Adept instead of a better card (Figure of Destiny), then sweet. Also there's a reason you'd only want to run 2 (because it costs 3 mana). The argument that your creature will "get Plowed on sight" is in fact an argument for running the card as opposed to not running it. Any creature that your opponent wants to Swords immediately is a creature you want to run (as opposed to "I should run shitty creatures instead that my opponent doesn't want to play with"). Furthermore, if your opponent has a "Goyf wall," that means they aren't attacking with their Goyf, right? Pretty good for a 2/2 (to be able to make your opponent too scared to attack with Goyf).




although he will win some G1s against them - how many ANT lists run Slaughter Pact pre-board?),

This is patently false. You would need to land 2 of them, almost all the good ANT lists run a Chain of Vapor main.


but he will randomly stop your opponent from Hymning/Thoughtseizing you long enough for you to win with your dudes,

How many people are winning with Hymn + Thoughtseize these days? Is it worthwhile to spend 4 slots just for this match up?



or randomly win Burn matchups for you by drawing enough fire away from your head for you to survive.

What are you smoking? He draws exactly one burn spell away from your head. It really isn't straight burn match ups you should worry about (you run Jitte and StP), but rather a deck like GoyfSligh or Zoo (which would much rather burn your creatures anyways so real threats like Figure of Destiny, Goyf, and Thoctar can get in). If I were playing GoyfSligh or Zoo and you played True Believer I'd laugh as I raced you with Goyf and burned your non-crappy creatures (with a deck like GoyfSligh True Believer isn't even worth casting a burn spell on until I have enough burn to kill it and you at the same time). In a match up like this, you'd much rather have Figure of Destiny which forces them to spend a burn spell in response to you trying to make it a 4/4 or Jotun Grunt which either shrinks Goyf or draws 2 burn spells, if they try to race by burning your dome he gets in for 3 turns instead of 2. I'd even rather have Augury Adept than True Believer here, as she forces the burn spell out immediately instead of allowing them to wait until the last second possible (and if they mysteriously don't have a burn spell and she connects, that's twice as good as anything True Believer does).


Trust me, True Believer is a piece of crap.

[MTG-Fan]

This is patently false. You would need to land 2 of them, almost all the good ANT lists run a Chain of Vapor main.


A quick peek @ deckcheck ANT lists reveals that the trend is more toward running Orim's Chant than Chain MD. Sure, chain will come in post-board, but typically speaking, combo players are more concerned with the blue control matchup than bouncing permanents pre-board, and thus will focus more on playing targeted discard effects and chant effects.



How many people are winning with Hymn + Thoughtseize these days? Is it worthwhile to spend 4 slots just for this match up?


Are you aware how many decks these days run targeted discard effects as their main disruption suite? Most combo decks like ANT run Duress, Aggro-Loam will try to empty your hand with Raven's Crime, Rock decks run Thoughtseize/Duress, and all of the SuiBlack/EvaGreen decks run both Hymn and Thoughtseize.



What are you smoking? He draws exactly one burn spell away from your head.


Until they waste one of their burn spells on Believer, they can't win, and sometimes that one burn spell makes all of the difference.

Also, consider that many burn decks will be running things like Price of Progress and Lava Spike, and will sometimes have hands in which they will be topdecking lands, holding a few of these non-creature-targetable burn spells while you are safe with Believer on the board after having used the other burn spells on your other creatures.

[f|i[p]]

Just my thoughts...

As for match ups..

Combo has always been a problem, and I probably still wont dedicate soo much main board cards just to fix it. I will keep the sideboard specifically for the combo match up. However this can be a metagame call.

Control as well has been a problem for this.

for certain cards.

I know goyf made angel stompy weak in a certain degree. White creatures on the same cc are simply mediocre compared to goyf.

Now there is also counter balance.. which makes this deck a lot weaker. Almost all the threats we have are hit by cb.

If I were to to run a deck like this, I would definitely splash Green for goyf, and pridemage. This could also give you K. grips on the side which should help against cb as well as P. deeds.

I would also make sure that every threat I have is actually a threat, something that blue based decks would actually counter. Silver knights are bleh. soltari priest would have worked, but 2cc for 2/1 shadow is weak if you dont have equipment on. Goyf can easily out race you if you do not over commit.

I remember some matches I had before where they would just counter equipment, and then your creatures are left hanging.2/2 against 3/3s or 4/4s with same cc is just sad.

If I would have a creature base for this it would be something like:

3 mother of runes - I used to draw a lot of her so 3 is enough.Mother alone cant really do anything.

3 figure of destiny - I love this card because, alone, it can grow quite big. It will always be hit by a removal spell.
4 tarmogoyfs -- is a big threat worth countering and the removal spell.
3 qasali pridemage -- may not be worth countering but its a good utility card as well as it makes your guys fatter. Helps you win goyf wars.
3 serra avenger -- is a big threat

Cards I didnt inclued but might be worth consideration:

Gaddock teeg-- a good anti combo, and anti force of will card. not perfect. but with mother of runes protection , he can be annoying.
Exalted Angel - I think if your going the aether vial route, you can skip her.
J. Grunt - Is a situational card.. so I really never want to draw him early on.
K.of the reliquary - If your planning to have a land toolbox, and is quite fat by himself. He can thin out the deck and help you find wastlands if your planning to run them.
Aven Mindcensor --2/1 with 3cc. Probably good if you have Wasteland along.
Kitchen finks -- A beater who is quite hard to kill..its still a 3/2 with no evasion.
Spectral lynx -- this probably isn't worth the slow. But Im just mentioning him because of pro green .
Soltari priest -- a good 2/1 evasion. Without equipment, he is useless and slow. (will eventually force you to over commit)
Epochrasite -- Is a good 4/4 creature if you vial him out. He is also quite hard to kill.

I might have missed some other creatures but all in all, I think you just have to make each threat really count to enable to make this work.

Ill be testing some lists in Mws and see how it goes from there.. But I really think the green splash is worth it and is vital to the deck.

[freakish777]

A quick peek @ deckcheck ANT lists reveals that the trend is more toward running Orim's Chant than Chain MD.

Deckcheck isn't a good indicator of the meta. Any good ANT player will have a singleton bounce spell to Mystical Tutor for, precisely for this reason.


Most combo decks like ANT run Duress,

Combo rocks you anyways. What does Duress do against you pre-board? Make them have to storm 1 less when they take your StP (and now you can't StP your own guy in response to Tendrils)?? This point is almost a non-argument, that's how weak it is.


Aggro-Loam will try to empty your hand with Raven's Crime, Rock decks run Thoughtseize/Duress, and all of the SuiBlack/EvaGreen decks run both Hymn and Thoughtseize.

Aggro-Loam, Rock, and EvaGreen all have removal spells, if they somehow think it's worth killing True Believer in order to get their discard spells online, they'll kill him anyways. However, those discard spells usually aren't integral to their game plan. Again, is it important for this match up (non-blue aggro control with Hymn to Tourach) alone??? Chances are that it's not worth main decking a card just for one deck/archetype. I mean if you have a small enough meta where you're guaranteed to play against the same guy every week and he runs Aggro-Loam with Raven's Crime (and you only play 4 matches) then, sure it's worth it. In a large/diverse metagame though, it's not worthwhile to play a slot just for a single match up (that's what sideboards are for, and I'm pretty sure there's better options even then).




Until they waste one of their burn spells on Believer, they can't win, and sometimes that one burn spell makes all of the difference.

You know what else would make a difference in that situation (the one where a single burn spell determines the game). A BETTER CREATURE WITH A FASTER CLOCK! Like, oh, I don't know, Figure of Destiny or Jotun Grunt. Not like I suggested those guys or anything though...


Also, consider that many burn decks will be running things like Price of Progress and Lava Spike, and will sometimes have hands in which they will be topdecking lands, holding a few of these non-creature-targetable burn spells while you are safe with Believer on the board after having used the other burn spells on your other creatures.

Ok, first of all, Price of Progress doesn't target, please go RTFC. Second of all, Price of Progress doesn't do anything against you ("Nice PoP, I have basic Plains, way to 2 yourself thanks to your Taiga, looks like you'll be boarding those out"), third of all, Lava Spike is terrible, is anyone still running that card??


I've said it before and I'll say it again. True Believer is a bad card. The vast majority of the time, he's no better than a Grizzly Bear.




EDIT: The above poster pointed out Kitchen Finks at the 3cc slot. That would probably also be a decent card to test if you don't like Augury Adept (it's a tempo machine against other creature decks and it meets the requirements of 1cc per 1 power).

[nightmaster]

One thing thing about Adept.

He draws when he deals combat damage to a player. How is a undersized creature going to deal damage to a player unless you have equipment that gives evasion?

Also, I feel like Aven Mindcensor could replace Soltari Priest a lot of the time since both have evasion but one has an ability that may be useful in disrupting the opponent from time to time.

[Rizso]

A quick run-through yields me this list, synthesizing a bit here and there:

// Lands
8 [ALA] Plains (2)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [10E] True Believer
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
2 [ON] Exalted Angel
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 1 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

SB is obviously rough as heck, hence only "4" slots filled. Some notes about the main:

1. G splash opens up Goyf, which I had to knock down to 3-of sadly, and Qasali Pridemage, and good SB options like Teeg, so that seemed worthwhile.
2. No eTutor toolbox, because there isn't room, and you have plenty of pseudo-disruption main.
3. Every mono-W deck is required by law to MD O-Rings.
4. Exalted Angel could probably go, but I have a soft spot for her and perhaps she can win you fights out of nowhere. Probably can get cut for an extra Goyf and an extra of something else, i.e. Serra Avenger, Qasali Pridemage or Samurai of the Pale Curtain.
[U]5. Only thing about Wg is no REB/BEB :(, but splashing U doesn't seem worthwhile (no critters of good use), and R makes you a slower Zoo deck. So neither option is good.
6. I also don't like Mana Tithe. Got to be proactive.
7. I have no real good idea as to what SB options W has.

Blue gives you Meddling Mages.

[_erbs_]

Splashing green for goyfs and SB options is a good option. Actually splashing other colors is good aswell. Each color gives a certain something.

I'll go for something like this if was to build such a deck

Tools:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 oblivion ring
4 honor the pure
18

Critters:
4 figure of destiny
3 mourning thrull
3 aethersworn canonist
3 serra avenger
4 flickerwisp
3 aven mindsensor
2 Stonecloaker
22

Land:
1 flagstones of trokair
3 wasteland
13 Plains
20

It's unconventional compared to the traditional white winnie but it has evasion and with honor the pure it would would be a big boost damage wise. As for the goyf issue goyfs early on doesn't hurt as much an early goyf is around 2/3 to 3/4 you can just trade damage from him using figure or other threats you have.

Removal is quite good aswell...
It's creature and spot removal which is reusable via flickerwisp + oblivion ring + stone cloaker trick.

The Figure of Destiny is there to give you muscle if you need it early on.

Against Trinisphere / Countertop...
The deck isn't a auto loss against trinisphere decks or counterbalance decks.

I haven't tried aven mindsensor in 3 i always use him as 4 offs and its a very very good card for me. I pick mourning thrull due to its lifelink + evasion with honor the pure it would be awesome if gaining the life lost early on...

Pernicious deed ouch....
But a pernicious deed would really hurt this deck thus pithing needle is a must in the SB...

[Nelis]

I have been dabbling with a toolbox White Weenie list which may look extremely random but works like a charm.

Creatures:
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Ranger of Eos
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Order of the White Orchid
3 Serra Avenger
4 Sigiled Paladin
4 Figure of Destiny

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 path to Exile

Toolbox:
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle

Other:
4 Aether Vial

Land:
19 Plains
1 Ancient Den

SB:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Light of Day
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's jitte
2 Abolish
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 slots undecided

Card choices:
3 Isamaru. Not much to say about Isamaru. It's one drop #9-11

2 Jotun Grunt. I play only play two because I do not want to have one in my hand early game. It usually doesn't stay on the battlefield for long since there at that time there are hardly any cards in both graveyards.

3 Serra Avenger. Only three because it's obviously dead in your hand the first 3 turns and you do not always have a Aether Vial in play. And it doesn't matter much if you have it in play turn 3 with vial or turn 4 without.

3 Order of the White Orchid. Over the years (I play magic since 1994) I have noticed that the biggest problem with White Weenie is not getting enough lands in play (only 20 in the deck). It's become a bit less problematic since Aether Vial already helps. The Order is a nice extra but it also fulfills another important role. Getting enough lands into play and being able to activate Figure of Destiny to the max. Order also allows nifty tricks with Aether vial. Tricking your opponent when you have no lands untapped and thus no way of playing STP or Path. Just aether vial the Order in and suddenly you to have mana to play that STP or Path.

4 Figure of Destiny. This card rocks. It's a must remove and if your opponent can't he's in big trouble. Its very hard to deal with when it's 4/4 and it becomes 8/8 more often than you think. And most times we have Order of the White Orchid to thank us for that.

2 Ranger of Eos. Makes you search for the new superman in magic (if you ask me) Figure of Destiny. It's is always a pleasure watching the dismay on your opponents face after they've been finally able to get rid of your early threats when suddenly Ranger of Eos turns up accompanied by two of his best friends.

4 Sigiled Paladin. Most of you probably wonder why this one is in but I really like this card primarily for it's exalted. There's one thing better than a 2/2 first striker which attacks and that's a 3/3 first striker. Another nice feature of Sigiled Paladin is that it stalls your opponent's ground attacks while your 4/4 Serra Avenger does the job for you. I actually went from 4 to 3 back to 4. I like it that much.

Removal:
I run both STP and Paths. It seems a lot and I can imagine you might want to cut a few. The reason I do play all 8 is that my metagame is very aggro / aggro control.

Toolbox:
The most important thing to know is not to put in too many tutor targets. 2 reasons:
1. More tutor targets mean less creatures and this will get you in trouble
2. Card disadvantage.
So only put in a minimal of tutor targets. Also keep this in mind when sideboarding.

3 Enlightened Tutor. No explanation needed I hope.

1 Umezawa's Jitte. When you encounter Umezawa's Jitte it is not that problematic because of the amount of removal I play and also because of most creatures having first strike. But once in a while one enters the battlefield across the table and then you have an extra option to get rid of it.

1 Tormods Crypt. I played Ichorid a couple of times and hated losing to it. So I wanted a main deck answer. I'ts also handy vs Thresh to keep those Mongeese small. But thresh is about the easiest match-up anyway.

1 Ethersworn Canonist. I wanted a maindeck answer to combo. If your not facing combo its just a vanilla 2/2 but it's never really a dead card.

1 Pithing Needle. I would never do without Pithing Needle. It comes in too handy. Just to name a few targets: Mishra's factory, Sensei's Divining Top, Planeswalkers (can be problematic), Jitte and even fetch land. I've even named Aether vial a couple of times when it suited me.

Sideboard:
There are so many options for tutor targets you can put in the sideboard that it's hard to choose. My choices:

1 Sword of Fire and Ice: kills Gobs and Merfolk but can maybe be cut since those match-ups are favourable already.

1 Seal of Cleansing: tutorable enchantment/artifact removal.

1 Light of Day: I won a round against Pox playing this one and it comes in handy against Progenitus. I consider it my lucky charm but should probably be replaced.

2 Pithing Needle: see above.

2 Tormod's Crypt: Vs Ichorid and also handy vs survival decks and the like.

2 Umezawa's Jitte: to get rid of opponents Jittes

2 Abolish: I need some instant artifact/enchantment removal and this one does not get countered quickly by Counterbalance

2 Ethersworn Canonist: vs combo but maybe Rule of Law is a better choice but I like the fact that canonist is a creature.

2 slots undecided:

About the match-ups.
I do not have the luxury to do a lot of testing so I do my testing playing tournaments. So not all (relevant) match-ups will be addressed.

Good match-ups:
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh: They don't have enough threats to be a problem. Any Tarmogoyf that hits the table doesn't stay very long because I have more removal. And they can't counter everything you play. I have been lucky not to run into Counterbalance yet so that might present a problem but luckily I also play Aether Vial. I would side in Abolish to get rid of Counterbalance and use Pithing Needle on Sensei's Divining Top.

Goblins: Your men having first strike is your biggest advantage. They can't attack you. Make sure you keep your STP's and Paths for problem cards like lackey and you're alright. Side in Sword of Fire and Ice to finish them of quickly. Side in Seal of Cleansing to deal with Aether Vial. And if you still worry about this match up (you shouldn't) side in 2 more Jittes.

Merfolk: Keep your removal for their Lords, your first strikers do the rest. Just keep em of activated Jittes if they run them. Side in Sword of Fire and Ice

So-so match-ups.
Survival: Have only played this deck once. It turned into a draw. I got screwed by Spore-Frog/Volrath's Stronghold combo. Maybe I just was a bit unlucky. Between Pithing Needle, Seal of Cleansing, Abolish and Tormod's Crypt it should't be such a hard match-up.

Bad match-ups:
Aggro Loam: I just can't win this match-up. As soon as Seismic Assault hits the table I'm in trouble. I haven't figured out how to deal with this match-up. I'm inclined to take out 1 Jitte, 4 Aether Vial and put in 1, Sword of Fire and Ice, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Tormod's Crypt hoping to stall them long enought to win. Any tips to improve this matchup?

The Mighty Quin: Man, do I hate this deck. I suppose most people hardly come across this deck but someone in my meta plays it. It plays too many problem cards: Moat, Runed Halo, Oblivion Ring, Grindstone Servant combo, It's impossible to get rid of them all. And if you do get rid of some of the problem cards they play Isocron Scepter with Orim's Chant and you're screwed. Maybe I should use those two open slots in the sideboard for 2 Tempest of Light. Next Time I face the deck Ill probably side in 2 Abolish, 1 Seal of Fire, 2 Tempest of Light and 1 Pithing Needle and taking out 4 Aether Vial, 1 Tormod's Crypt and the Jitte. Tips welcome.

I also came across a few homebrew decks which weren't a problem. I also ran into Rock decks a few times. Can't remember much about those match-ups but they probably weren't that big a problem or I would've remembered. I suppose not to overextend since they run Pernicious Deed. Kitchen Finks are a pain in the butt though.

I would like to hear your thoughts on match-ups I haven't addressed like Zoo, certain combo decks.

[_erbs_]

Hello Nelis,
Its sometimes hold true that even on a 20 land count white winnie still gets mana problems due to the lack of library manipulation. Like you said vial helps alot in that department.

Knight of the White Orchid is really nice at times but for me it really depends on your build, after that 1 additional land drop his just a 2/2 1st striker.. Knight of the Meadowgrain seems nicer or Knights with built-in protection.

Sigiled Paladin would be okay if your an exalted deck but you seldom attack by one creature so the ability of +1/+1 is kinda uless, I think soltra champion might be a better choice.

For me Jotun grunt feels more of a SB card over a mainboard card. His a good 2cc 4/4 beater that eats gy for about 2-3 turns, drawing him early on sucks aswell.

The toolbox looks cool but i think white winnie can't afford to do such tricks because the longer the game prolongs the weaker white winnie gets, yes you have 8 spot removals but a counterbalance deck which is common in the current legacy format could shutdown the deck easily.

The one i've posted above is untested but i think it has potential. It has a toolbox aswell in the form of aggro. It has steroids to boost your threats muscle aswell (honor the pure & jitte). It has things to handle counterbalance or other taxing effects thats put upon a creature deck. I think 2 armageddons could fit in the mainboard eto ensure a victory -1 land and -1 jitte.

The creatures that i don't know how it would perform are the aven mindsensor and mourning thurll.

aven mindsesor is excellent if he could come out early and against multicolored deck but after that his just a 3cc 2/1 flyer... hmm maybe he could better off as SB card

mourning thrull is just a 2cc 1/1 flyer lifelink..

maybe they could be replaced with:

isamaru
elite vanguard / savannah lions
soltari priest
silver knight
knight of the meadowgrain
soltari champion

Yesterday I've played against an oldschool white winnie that ran crusade, i was using white stax, and the result was 50/50, 1 crusade with 2 knights really stings.. Seeing crusade in action convinced me more that honor the pure would be a really good addition to a white winnie deck.

Ranger of Eos seems nice you can easily replenish your troops after a boardsweep.

[Nelis]

If you try out my list you will find out that this deck has a very strong midgame. That's why I like it so much. I'm actually surprised by that everytime I play it.

I would argue that without a toolbox you'd definitely lose to Counterbalance. With Pithing Needle main I have at least a slight chance by closing down their Sensei's Divining Top. And after boarding I can put in Abolish and I have Seal of Cleansing to put in into play before counterbalance hits.

Those are just some examples that show the benefits of using a toolbox. Without a toolbox you're not able to deal with threats proactively and you just have to sit and wait hoping you draw that one card you need. It happened a lot before I decided to run a toolbox. Now the deck is much more flexible and versatile

One could opt to use Jotun Grunt as a sideboard card. I might put them there in the future if i find a suitable replacement but for now I like the two of them main.

I don't like Aven Mindsensor since it is 3 mana and 2/1 for 3 mana isn't that great. I haven't tried it in this deck (I tried it in an extended deck a while back) but I feel it's too situational too often. I do like Stone Cloaker, maybe Ill try it some time. Apart from its excellent ability it also kicks butt. Maybe I'll put 2 in instead of the 2 Jotun Grunts.

I wouldn't even consider Morning Thrull. 1/1 for two mana with an irrelevant ability is not worth it. If you play white weenie you want the biggest creatures available for the smallest possible manacost. If I were you I would definitely replace them with Isamaru. You need more than the 8 one drops you're playing now in my opinion. I don't understand why you're that afraid of losing life that you want to gain it again. Life gain is a nice extra but I would not look for cards to put in just for the sake of life gain.

Personally I'm not that big a fan of Crusade because it's a terrible top deck. I might consider putting in honor the pure so I can tutor for it but I don't think Id really need it that much.

I would definitely advise you to put in 2 ranger of Eos. You won't regret it.

[nightmaster]

While doing testing lately, I too have concluded that an Enlightened Tutor Toolbox is an incredibly useful asset. Here is my list:

Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Soltari Priest
4 Serra Avenger
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Jotun Grunt
2 True Believer
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Other Spells:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Runed Halo
1 Parallax Wave

Land:
13 Plains
1 Ancient Den
4 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair

Card Choices:
Creatures: Most of them are obvious choices. True Believer provides interesting disruption especially with vial. Because we do have E Tutor though, that lead me to change one Believer to Canonist. Knight of the White Orchid provides actual mana accel, very good with vial, and allows you to still hit land drops even if you wasteland. Jotun Grunt is great in the fact that if a Tutor target gets countered or destroyed you can easily go get it again.

Land: The deck is mono colored and has vial and KotWO so the deck can easily support wasteland. Flagstones helps against Pox, Loam, etc.

Other: In order to explain my choices I must explain my thinking. I didn't want the deck relying too heavily on Enlightened Tutor. One Extirpate or Chalice set at one and it's gone. That being said you also want to get the most out of it. Hence, that is why I made the choices I did. 2 Jitte and 2 Ring ensure that they are not overly relient on Tutor. There are only two non-creature singletons to ensure consistency. And I have 4 Tutors to ensure I get the most use out of it. Runed Halo and Parallax Wave are just useful cards to Tutor for.

[vlz-]

I've been playing this deck for quite a while with some very good results.

4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Soltari Priest
4x Savannah Lions
3x Knight of the white orchid
3x Serra Avenger
2x Jotun Grunt
2x Isamaru
1x Ethersworn canonist

3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Aether Vial
2x Divining Top
1x Crusade (m10 one is better now)
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Sword of F&I
1x Sword of L&S
1x Jitte

4x Swords to Plowshares

16x Snow-covered plains
2x Scrying sheets
1x Ancient den

I hadn't seen anyone playing scrying sheets in monoW aggro and I figured it was a great way to improve late game. With top/sheets out you can weed out all land topdecks and pretty much pickup only relevant cards.

[MTG-Fan]

I notice that alot of the White Weenie decks I play against on MWS are running Cataclysm.

[Honoluluicecaps]

I love the idea of a white vial aggro deck, but I think it just plays better if you splash blue and make it an aggro-fish type build with a Trinket Mage toolbox. I know that this isn't mono-white so maybe this isn't the right place for it, but Enlightened Tutor is strictly worse in my opinion than Trinket Mage, as mage can fetch you singleton copies of:

Relic of the Progenitus
Pithing Needle
Chalice of the Void
Engineered Explosives
Ancient Den

The problem with mono-white vial aggro at least in my testing is that it sucks against combo, and having one chalice MD plus 3x on the board, plus the possibility of running Stifle, Meddling Mage, and Brainstorm can greatly improve your chances of winning, and is worth adding a splash of blue. FWIW, I don't think Force of Will would work as a splash for obvious reasons, although I'm sure like in situations where you run green and don't run Goyf, people tend to get emotional about running blue without any FoW.

Just my two cents, good luck with it.

[Nelis]

I notice that alot of the White Weenie decks I play against on MWS are running Cataclysm.

Do they run Figure of Destiny as well? It doesn't seem to be a good combination? I personally would never ever again leave Figure of Destiny out. They're just too good.

[Nessaja]

A quick peek @ deckcheck ANT lists reveals that the trend is more toward running Orim's Chant than Chain MD. Sure, chain will come in post-board, but typically speaking, combo players are more concerned with the blue control matchup than bouncing permanents pre-board, and thus will focus more on playing targeted discard effects and chant effects.
Are we playing the same game? You're putting 2-4 mainboard spots for the rare scenario where you're playing against ANT and you can actually resolve a True Believer before they go off. And then even when that perfect case scenario happens you're expecting them not to have Wipe Away as well. That seems slightly farfetched.


Also, consider that many burn decks will be running things like Price of Progress and Lava Spike, and will sometimes have hands in which they will be topdecking lands, holding a few of these non-creature-targetable burn spells while you are safe with Believer on the board after having used the other burn spells on your other creatures.
Lavaspike is one of the first burn spells to use, at most you delay the game for one extra turn. You pay 3 mana for a bear, they need to draw another burn spell or already have one in hand (actually more likely, considering the way burn is played). It really doesn't seem like a card you want in your mainboard for two matchups (both at uncommon) where the card will work in rare scenarios.

[EnemyWithin]

Here's a deck I've been toying with on and off for a year, excepting some recent additions. It probably won't be winning any major tournaments, but it's monocolor and fits my playing style, so I stick with it :cool: .

Land: 20
14 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand

Creatures: 22
4 Mother of Runes
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Ranger of Eos

Other: 18
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Honor of the Pure
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:
4 Orim's Chant
4 Pithing Needle (against Pernicious Deed, Qasali Pridemage, and other nasty stuff)
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Glowrider

First off, I run fetches for deck-thinning, which is very much needed. It makes me vulnerable to Stifle, but since I have Knight of the White Orchid (which is awesome and worthwhile, btw) and Vial, I'm not that worried. Moon effects also don't worry me since I have 14 Plains, and fetches drawn after the Moon effect can still pump Figure. Life loss is generally insignificant, as I rarely draw more than 3 or 4 fetchlands during a given game.

Second is the notable absence of Jitte in favor of Honor of the Pure. I'm still not sure whether this is right, but I've had kind of a love-hate relationship with Jitte and have recently gotten tired of it, and I think with the amount of creatures I end up playing and attacking with, Honor of the Pure is more worthwhile in this deck, even as great as Jitte is generally. I have plenty of removal, and Honor of the Pure generally gives more buffs than Jitte did, and is much less mana intensive. It also takes a lot of creatures out of Fallout/Pyroclasm/Infest (does anyone play Infest?) range. I do have Sword of Fire and Ice as a pseudo-Jitte, which in some cases works better (harder to Counterbalance, not vulnerable to Spell Snare, gives protection and buffs before combat damage, can still kill creatures but not quite as well as Jitte, and can draw cards for you) but is slower and more costly, hence the 2 of. Also, SoFaI on a Stillmoon is almost always a game winner. But then again, so is Jitte on a Stillmoon.

I started with 2 Ranger of Eos, but upped it to 3 when I realized that I very rarely don't want to see this card. It fetches Figure and Mother of Runes, two cards that your opponent must deal with (Mother only when combined with something else, although she can chump block ground pounders all day on her own).

Also, for those doubting Knight of the White Orchid, it is a decent choice for the 2 drop slot. It gives you card advantage (something that mono-white has trouble with), mana acceleration (it puts the land into play untapped), has efficient power to mana cost ratio, and does some neat tricks not only with Swords/Path but also with Figure and Stillmoon. It can make your opponent think you can't pump Figure or give Stillmoon First Strike or Flying, and trick them into attacking into an unfavorable combat situation. I wouldn't call Knight of the White Orchid an auto-include, but I think it's decent and worth considering.

One thing I've desperately wanted to try is to put Eight-and-a-Half Tails in the Samurai slot, although I'm afraid that it falls into the "Danger of Cool Things" category. It would work nicely with Stillmoon Cavalier and Mother of Runes, but it is probably too slow to work. I might still give it a try though, this isn't exactly a huge competitive deck in the first place :rolleyes: . Also, I apologize for any bad spelling or grammar, I'm operating on four hours of sleep.

[Nelis]

Am I the only one who doesn't like Mother of Runes?

It's nothing more than a 1/1 wall with protection from all colors when its all alone on the board. It's a terrible top deck. And it doesn't pack a punch at all.

I think its more more often useless than useful. I'd rather rely on my Paths and STPs to clear the way for my other critters.

[EnemyWithin]

Am I the only one who doesn't like Mother of Runes?

It's nothing more than a 1/1 wall with protection from all colors when its all alone on the board. It's a terrible top deck. And it doesn't pack a punch at all.

I think its more more often useless than useful. I'd rather rely on my Paths and STPs to clear the way for my other critters.

If you're going all out swarm aggro, then there probably are better options in Isamaru or Elite Vanguard (I'd recommend a 3 Isamaru 1-2 Vanguard split). In my Soldiers pure aggro deck I run Vanguards, not Mother of Runes. But if you're going even a little bit aggro/control, the Mother of Runes is worth it. The main use for her is not to make things unblockable (although you can do this), but to protect your creatures from spot removal, and also chump block bigger creatures without your creature dying. She isn't great when she's alone on the board, but she should never really be alone. Also, a lone Isamaru or Vanguard isn't great either, but the deck needs one drops, and Mother is in my opinion the best for aggro/control, outside of D&T's Karakas/Isamaru tricks. Here's my new list, with Jitte instead of Honor, because I've realized that Jitte just is that good.

Land: 21
14 Plains
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Flagstones of Trokair


Creatures: 22
4 Mother of Runes
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 White Shield Crusader
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Ranger of Eos

Other: 17
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

You'll notice a few changes. One, Horizon Canopy is killer, I completely forgot that card existed until I saw it in the case at the local store. Canopy works nicely with KO2 (Knight of the White Orchid, KOTWO, you get the abbreviation, right?), and with the deck in general. When you don't need mana, sac the Canopy, or when you draw KO2 sac Canopy, draw a card, and fetch a Plains with the knight to replace the Canopy. Also, Jitte just works better than Honor, which is too bad because I really liked Honor of the Pure. I guess I'll just use it in Soldiers. I also stopped using Samurai of the Pale Curtain because A) it is anti-synergistic with Flagstones, and B) it doesn't have evasion, and with Jittes and SoFaI evasion becomes important. I've tried Serra Avenger, but I've found that it is just too inconsistent, at least for me. Sometimes it works like a charm with Vial, but other times it sits in my hand until turn 4, which is usually too late. If White Shield Crusader turns out to totally suck, then maybe I'll give Serra Avenger another shot. Or maybe white will get a killer 2 drop in Zendikar, I've got my fingers crossed.

[tivadar]

What about Mirror Entity as a beater? He makes all your creatures huge, which is sorta the point. Not to mention if he's vialed in he can have an immediate impact.