whidye
07-02-2009, 10:22 AM
I was looking at the lists of developed decks and decided that I would make a modified fish deck - based on combo-control. Unfortunately, I've never played legacy before (competitive); but I would like to start with this deck.
So, this list has been 'lightly' tested. I've basically played it against a pure control deck based only on stopping the combo from coming into play - which it does with better consistency than I would like; meaning I would like more protection - but I don't think I can afford it in the decklist.
Here is the list for the fifth version of this deck (card explanations will follow):
Mana:
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
5 Island
3 Chrome Mox
Creatures:
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Aphetto Alchemist
3 Werebear
Spells:
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Shadow Rift
4 Rancor
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Worldly Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
Sideboard:
2 Propaganda
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Guile
3 Chill
2 Krosan Grip
Explaining the mana base:
The six fetch lands are fairly obvious - however, I don't know if I am running to many in order to avoid worrying about stifles. As far as I know people run stiflenought - and sometimes use the stifle to hit your land. I don't know if it is used in any other decks purely for the reason of hitting fetchlands (or something else?)
Dual lands are obvious - simply the best mana source I have for this deck (barring 'moon' effects); which is why I have a few basics I can search for if needed.
The chrome moxes I am a bit iffy on. It uses up some of my MD cards, which isn't always fun; but it has the advantage of possibly giving me an extra mana early really adding to the speed of this deck. I originally had four, but if I drew the game out with counters found that drawing an extra was a real dead draw. I may want to replace one with a breeding pool (pain-dual), some basics (or artifact lands for the Alchemist [who does work with the moxes]), or MAYBE a wasteland (although I am quite unsure of this choice). I curve out at 3cc, so maybe I can reduce the amount to MD some more answers, but 20 seems very comfortable with this list.
The creatures:
Wake Thrashers are just always big meanies - except on the opponents turn for the most part; where they are 1/1 wimps. This means they are VERY susceptible to burn - and its not like they are hard to counter either. However on my turn they are monsters; especially combined with the game-winning Alchemist who generates infinite untappage (also untaps mox).
Werebears are my cheap goyfs. Respectable 4/4's when I use enough tutors/counters as well as generating mana for daze effects, pumping out my combo earlier if needed, or chumping.
The spells:
Spell snare is an awesome card in this format; but it has a big drawback. I can cast it with almost anything in this deck but the targets have to be 2cc (which is many - goyf,counterbalance,wishes,meddling mage and many others); but a mana needs to be left available to use it (unlike daze) and it can't stop stifle, nought, top, pithing needle, common burn.
Daze - an easy one. Alt. cost counter - but has no potential past turn 4 (3 in some cases) - so I made it a three of. Also can slow down my land (with wasteland decks; this is fail).
FoW - awesome. Requires blue cards - which I have plenty.
Shadow Rift - Gives evasion to the FISH. If I hold a rancor in hand at EoT, I will give somebody shadow for card draw.
Rancor - Essentially evasion since it is meant for use on 30/30 Thrasher. Otherwise, can be used on werebear. Has immediate GY-recursion.
Ponder - Shuffle. Sort. Draw. Nice.
B-storm - Discard protection. Draw. Nice.
Worldly Tutor - Find combo pieces in end-step. Draw it on your turn. Nice.
Krosan Grip - MD answer to affinity, nought, countertop, moat, etc... Cannot be countered. I originally tried to use Tel-Jilad Justice for scry; but found that uncounterable things are very nice.
Sideboard:
Propaganda stops swarms (icho, gobbo, folk).
BEB - for red (gutteral response, other mean red things - moon, choke, etc)
Crypt - GY hate. Free. Does not hurt me as much (no goyfs) if I don't have threshold.
Relic - GY hate. Card draw for :2:.
Guile - painter-grind protection. Potential late game winner?
Chill - red defense.
Grip - Additional since I can't fit them in MD
I would like more counters/protection/draw - and the only way I can see this happening is if I maybe drop a mox or a rancor.
Other things I have used (previous versions):
Xantid Swarm MD - to stop counters on my creatures. Great 1-drop.
Cursecatcher - instead of Daze.
Vexing Shusher - removed because GG source is crappy.
Trickery Charm - instead of Shadow Rift; liked card draw ADDITION over 4-sort ALTERNATIVE. Flying got around moat - but not chumpers like B.Paradise.
Tel-Jilad Justice - instead of Grip for scry ADDITION. Cheaper cost. Can't remove enchantments. Counterable.
Goyf - (Proxied sigh..) Liked, but too expensive to use. Great combo protection since they aim for him first - which is fine.
Cycle lands - for card draw; filter. Dead draw early game.
Mana leak - Nice; but I simply liked Spell snare more. Using an actual Counterspell is probably a better option than leak.
Things I might want to try - but am too stubborn to do:
-Remove 2 thrashers/2 alchemist's/4 tutors to sideboard and use 4 Living Wish. Add in MD counter-top, answers, more disruption?
-Divert? Great against suicide black. Not so great against counter-top, nought, etc...
-Trickbind?
-Wipe Away?
-Insist?
I've put a fair amount of effort into this deck - I need to playtest it against the archetypes though. Please note that I am creating this deck to use in the 2009 GENCON tournament. Thanks!
So, this list has been 'lightly' tested. I've basically played it against a pure control deck based only on stopping the combo from coming into play - which it does with better consistency than I would like; meaning I would like more protection - but I don't think I can afford it in the decklist.
Here is the list for the fifth version of this deck (card explanations will follow):
Mana:
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
5 Island
3 Chrome Mox
Creatures:
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Aphetto Alchemist
3 Werebear
Spells:
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Shadow Rift
4 Rancor
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Worldly Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
Sideboard:
2 Propaganda
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Guile
3 Chill
2 Krosan Grip
Explaining the mana base:
The six fetch lands are fairly obvious - however, I don't know if I am running to many in order to avoid worrying about stifles. As far as I know people run stiflenought - and sometimes use the stifle to hit your land. I don't know if it is used in any other decks purely for the reason of hitting fetchlands (or something else?)
Dual lands are obvious - simply the best mana source I have for this deck (barring 'moon' effects); which is why I have a few basics I can search for if needed.
The chrome moxes I am a bit iffy on. It uses up some of my MD cards, which isn't always fun; but it has the advantage of possibly giving me an extra mana early really adding to the speed of this deck. I originally had four, but if I drew the game out with counters found that drawing an extra was a real dead draw. I may want to replace one with a breeding pool (pain-dual), some basics (or artifact lands for the Alchemist [who does work with the moxes]), or MAYBE a wasteland (although I am quite unsure of this choice). I curve out at 3cc, so maybe I can reduce the amount to MD some more answers, but 20 seems very comfortable with this list.
The creatures:
Wake Thrashers are just always big meanies - except on the opponents turn for the most part; where they are 1/1 wimps. This means they are VERY susceptible to burn - and its not like they are hard to counter either. However on my turn they are monsters; especially combined with the game-winning Alchemist who generates infinite untappage (also untaps mox).
Werebears are my cheap goyfs. Respectable 4/4's when I use enough tutors/counters as well as generating mana for daze effects, pumping out my combo earlier if needed, or chumping.
The spells:
Spell snare is an awesome card in this format; but it has a big drawback. I can cast it with almost anything in this deck but the targets have to be 2cc (which is many - goyf,counterbalance,wishes,meddling mage and many others); but a mana needs to be left available to use it (unlike daze) and it can't stop stifle, nought, top, pithing needle, common burn.
Daze - an easy one. Alt. cost counter - but has no potential past turn 4 (3 in some cases) - so I made it a three of. Also can slow down my land (with wasteland decks; this is fail).
FoW - awesome. Requires blue cards - which I have plenty.
Shadow Rift - Gives evasion to the FISH. If I hold a rancor in hand at EoT, I will give somebody shadow for card draw.
Rancor - Essentially evasion since it is meant for use on 30/30 Thrasher. Otherwise, can be used on werebear. Has immediate GY-recursion.
Ponder - Shuffle. Sort. Draw. Nice.
B-storm - Discard protection. Draw. Nice.
Worldly Tutor - Find combo pieces in end-step. Draw it on your turn. Nice.
Krosan Grip - MD answer to affinity, nought, countertop, moat, etc... Cannot be countered. I originally tried to use Tel-Jilad Justice for scry; but found that uncounterable things are very nice.
Sideboard:
Propaganda stops swarms (icho, gobbo, folk).
BEB - for red (gutteral response, other mean red things - moon, choke, etc)
Crypt - GY hate. Free. Does not hurt me as much (no goyfs) if I don't have threshold.
Relic - GY hate. Card draw for :2:.
Guile - painter-grind protection. Potential late game winner?
Chill - red defense.
Grip - Additional since I can't fit them in MD
I would like more counters/protection/draw - and the only way I can see this happening is if I maybe drop a mox or a rancor.
Other things I have used (previous versions):
Xantid Swarm MD - to stop counters on my creatures. Great 1-drop.
Cursecatcher - instead of Daze.
Vexing Shusher - removed because GG source is crappy.
Trickery Charm - instead of Shadow Rift; liked card draw ADDITION over 4-sort ALTERNATIVE. Flying got around moat - but not chumpers like B.Paradise.
Tel-Jilad Justice - instead of Grip for scry ADDITION. Cheaper cost. Can't remove enchantments. Counterable.
Goyf - (Proxied sigh..) Liked, but too expensive to use. Great combo protection since they aim for him first - which is fine.
Cycle lands - for card draw; filter. Dead draw early game.
Mana leak - Nice; but I simply liked Spell snare more. Using an actual Counterspell is probably a better option than leak.
Things I might want to try - but am too stubborn to do:
-Remove 2 thrashers/2 alchemist's/4 tutors to sideboard and use 4 Living Wish. Add in MD counter-top, answers, more disruption?
-Divert? Great against suicide black. Not so great against counter-top, nought, etc...
-Trickbind?
-Wipe Away?
-Insist?
I've put a fair amount of effort into this deck - I need to playtest it against the archetypes though. Please note that I am creating this deck to use in the 2009 GENCON tournament. Thanks!