PDA

View Full Version : [EDH] Arcum Dagson, the Prison Tinkerer



GGoober
07-09-2009, 10:32 AM
HISTORY OF MAKING THE DECK


So I've played a couple of EDH games in the last year, and Rhys the Redeemed was my general. He was a blast to play and was purely for casual games. My group eventually got a little more competitive, and I was always the target of EDH games for no reason since Mycoloth under a Doubling Season was apparently too scary for them. To me it's purely casual.

I have a friend who plays Rafiq, and uses a heavy recursion engine with Gifts and Mirari, and plays Maze of Ith, making the game unfun for everyone once he gets his recursion engine going i.e. he pretty much wins the game through card advantage and Forbid/Capsize.

I played him again and he eventually decides to Catastrophe all lands and return them to his hand with Twillight Shepherd. That was not cool, and my group complains about LD in EDH.

So I set out to find some competitive generals, a few off my list were:
- Braids Cabal Minion (now banned)
- Ertai the Corrupted (now working on a list, will post it up when it's optimized)
- Arcum Dagson

(I don't play Zur because he's overplayed and I don't think he's that great at all. He's only good if you can protect him when he comes into play on turn 4).

I ended up picking Arcum Dagson, because blue is my favorite color and I wanted to be able to play with all the most powerful cards in MTG ever printed (Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar, Mind over Matter, Time Spiral, Mindslaver). I really wanted a deck that was flooding with the symbol u. And that means running a deck with Tolarian Academy, and that means running a deck with artifacts, and the most natural general would be Dagson. Furthermore, I hate creatures, so I wanted to play a deck that didn't involve aggro-ing out. I'm a big fan of prison decks, so this is an even better option for me to play a deck that's flooding with u and wins through prison effects.

I've been highly optimizing the list, and this is the best list so far. There are definitely a few changes to be added and tweaked over the months but for now, the deck focus highly on the 3 areas of gameplay:

- Manaramp
- Denial
- Tutoring//Card advantage


Playing Dagson has been a blast. There are multiple combos involved and although the deck is fragile without him, ensuring that he lands protected early game will signal games within 1-2 turns. I find it a challenge to go off in 2 turns usually when he's just out, making full use of my hand/library/mana availability. Without further ado, I present you the Prison Tinkerer, and I'll explain how the deck interacts with the 4 areas of gameplay as mentioned:







DECKLIST: ARCUM DAGSON, THE PRISON TINKERER
GENERAL: 1
1 Arcum Dagson

NON-CREATURE ARTIFACTS: 24
1 Mana Crypt
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Grim Monolith
1 Winter Orb
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Nuisance Engine
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Memory Jar
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Mindslaver
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Planar Portal
1 Ward of Bones
1 Darksteel Forge

ARTIFACT CREATURES: 20
1 Copper Gnomes
1 Manakin
1 Milikin
1 Silver Myr
1 Myr Retriever
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Epochrasite
1 Scarecrone
1 Filigree Sages
1 Junk Troller
1 Master Transmuter
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Arcbound Reclaimer
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sharding Sphinx
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelavus
1 Memnarch
1 Sundering Titan

NON-ARTIFACT CREATURES: 3
1 Trinket Mage
1 Ethereal Usher
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent

DRAWS/TUTORS: 7
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Frantic Search
1 Fabricate
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

PERMISSION/CONTROL/OTHERS: 10
1 Hinder
1 Forbid
1 Power Artifact
1 Future Sight
1 Tunnel Vision
1 Capsize
1 Force of Will
1 Mind over Matter
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Stretch

LANDS: 36
17 Snow-Covered Island
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Gargoyle Castle (M10)
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Dustbowl
1 Maze of Ith
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Reliquary Tower


META-DEPENDENT CARDS:
Pithing Needle
Tormod's Crypt


COST-PROHIBITIVE CARDS:
+1 Mishra's Workshop
+1 Mana Drain
-1 Hinder
-1 Cathodion


PREVIOUS BANHAMMERED CARDS:
+1 Gifts Ungiven
+1 Metalworker (don't understand why he's banned. He's only good in monoblue.dec and MUD.dec)
+1 Tinker




GENERAL OUTLINES ON PLAYING THE DECK:
To those who are soft-hearted, this deck is ruthless, and you're bound to make enemies in your group. I've built this deck, and really wanted to test it's power so I played a couple of matches (duels and multiplayer) and it draws so much hate. It basically amounts to keeping Dagson off the board before you lock them down. Here are general strategies to the deck. Let's touch on each of the gameplay issues:


MANARAMP:

Mana-ramping is the most important aspect of Dagson-Prison deck. You need all the mana you need to tutor/cast and try to win as short as possible. Ramping in this deck is mainly used to grab win-condition off a tutored Planar Portal, landing a Mind over Matter to completely seal the deal. This deck can churn out powered-mana of up to 9cc by turn 3/4, putting it many turns ahead of other EDH decks.

The deck has the following absurd initial accelerants:
- Mana Crypt
- Sol Ring
- Mana Vault
- Grim Monolith
- Thran Dynamo
- Gilded Lotus
- Extraplanar Lens
- Gauntlet of Power
- Candelabra of Tawnos
- Mind over Matter
- Ancient Tomb
- Untap effects (Frantic Search/Treachery/Time Spiral)


PRE-DAGSON RAMPS:
The deck benefits most from initial mana-ramping. Ideally, you want to land Dagson around turn 3 latest, as such, you will enjoy the benefits of him being safer as removal gets more dangerous after turn 4 in EDH. There's always risks that he gets StP/Oringed, but the earlier you drop him, the better off you are. Don't be afraid to drop him on turn 2 without an artifact. It's usually better to drop him fast before an artifact if possible, in order to make use of the fact that he does not have hast.

Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Ancient Tomb
These are amazing in your opening hand. Dagson is all about the early game so these cards are crucial.


POST-DAGSON RAMPS:
After Dagson hits the board, you can tutor up the following ramping spells, depending on what you have in play.

High Tide effects: Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens
- If you have plentiful of islands, tutor up Gauntlet of Power/Extraplanar Lens (Gauntlet recommended since you don't lose a net land. Lens is much better under a Winter Orb).

- Note that the deck runs Snow-covered lands, and this is not for aesthetic purposes. The sole purpose is that the wording of Extraplanar Lens refers to the NAME of the card, so Snow-covered Island and Island have different names, therefore even if your opponent has Islands out, they will not benefit from the bonus of Extraplanar Lens.

- You'll be surprised at how much just one-Gauntlet of Power/Extraplanar Lens will accomplish in the deck. There was a game where I tutored for Gauntlet EOT and Mystical Tutored for Time Stretch, and casted a Time Stretch on turn 5, ending the game in a very boring fashion.

- When you have mana out, play out your hand, and with the decklist above, you should have a constant flow of cards. If you don't, I usually tutor out Planar Portal to find the missing combo pieces and go off in many different directions. With Planar Portal and a High Tide effect, you can basically Demonic Tutor for a card (since you're tapping 3 Islands to tutor for a card, as compared to 1B i.e. 2 lands to demonic tutor for a card).


Untapping effects: Candelabra of Tawnos, Mind over Matter, Frantic Search, Treachery, Time Spiral
- With Gauntlet/Lens out, Candelabra of Tawnos becomes a powerful card, and with Mind over Matter, you can have as many infinite mana as you need, as long as you can refill your hand (Tower of Fortunes, Arcanis). The deck needs various sources of increasing-mana generators, and Gauntlet/Lens with Candelabra does it very well, especially under Winter Orb. You also run Time Spiral, Frantic Search, and Treachery, all of which untaps lands. and thanks to new M10 rules, we don't manaburn anymore so there's no risks involved with generating mana.


Artifact mana: Gilded Lotus, Thran Dynamo, Tolarian Academy
- These are huge boosts to manaramp, especially under Winter Orb. Gilded Lotus is AMAZING, and is so in conjunction with Mind over Matter
Thran Dynamo is a supplement to Gilded Lotus, being second best accelerant in the deck.

- If there's ever one reason to play Dagson, it's Tolarian Academy. This deck is made to abuse it. Untapping effects make it broken, and Mind over Matter gives you almost infinite mana. With a Mycosynthe Lattice in play, your opponents would really start crying in one corner.


- Pre and post ramping is so important in the deck, because one of the deck's main strategies is to lock opponents under a Winter Orb, giving yourself a huge tempo boost as you go off. Which brings me to the next topic:





DENIAL:

One of the toughest problems Dagson faces is HATE, HATE from multiplayer. In duels, you're more than likely going to win. In my opinion, he's the best general after Braids in duels. But in multiplayer, you're not so lucky. We need a couple of quick denial plans.


PRISON-EFFECTS:
For people who play prison-decks e.g. Stasis, Stax, Land destruction, one can understand that prison-effects is one form of denial. One is accustomed to building a deck tailored to its manacurve but not many decks are accustomed to play against Land destruction (LD) or Stasis effects.

Winter Orb, Ward of Bones, Ensnaring Bridge
-Winter Orb is THE BEST card in the deck, and if I were to swear, people HATE the card. It draws in so much hate but if it lands, you're timewalking away with a general that tinkers for mana-ramp and answers while others have to slowly recover from it. Recall that the whole story to playing this deck is getting 2-3 turns undisrupted, which is more than enough time to win and go off.

- Winter Orb (WOrb) is usually unexpected, and it's best to tutor for it when the board is all tapped out, but don't be afraid to tutor it if you're tapped down yourself. You can always tinker for high tide effects, and if you have an Academy out, it's really laughable.

- Ward of Bones was a card that I played against someone who just put it there for fun. Apparently, I got destroyed by that card as he sat there with one general beating my face while I could not do anything. I thought about it in this deck, and realized its huge potential as a prison card. Note that the deck only requires that little land in play (namely Academy and 3-4 Islands with a high tide effect). Much of the land is useless anyway due to WOrb, so Ward of Bones typically reads that no one else can play lands unless you do, and if you get them to stick at 4-5 lands, I think not many decks can survive. You have all the tutorable artifact mana and high-tide mana that having 3 lands isn't a problem. There were times where I would dustbowl and strip my own lands to lock everyone out.

- Dagson deck has plenty of artifacts, but who else besides Karn runs those? Ward of Bone is a one-sided card as you play no creatures/enchantments (you don't have much of them out in play anyway).



TUTORING//CARD ADVANTAGE

Tutoring is perhaps the most annoying yet potent aspects of EDH. To be able to find anything you need, answers at everypoint.

Dagson is all about tutoring, so get used to shuffling that 100-card deck!

Here are a few guidelines to tutoring:



SAFETY: (assuming Dagson is in play)
- If you suspect Swords to Plowshares/Oblivion Ring the next turn, go for Lightning Greaves without a thought. If you suspect a more mana-heavy removal and your opponents are tapped out, go for Winter Orb (this is usually the first protection spell I tutor up).

- If you're still worried about creatures and enchantments, tutor up Ward of Bones to deny them on mana and creatures (since you have 2-3 creatures at most in play).

- If you're suspecting that Dagson is going to die inevitably, grab Thousand-Year Elixir to use him a couple of times before saying goodbye to him or if you have the chance, tutor up Mycosynthe Lattice and Darksteel Forge to make him indestructible. Although as a general, the only issue you'd ever have with him is not from him dying since you can replay him and mana isn't a problem for the deck. The problem comes when he cannot activate his ability e.g. Pithing Needle or when they control him. Then you should have tutored up Greaves or if you haven't, you have to blow up the board with a tutored Oblvion Stone/Disk.

- Tutor up Ensnaring Bridge if you're at risk at Phage/Serra Avatar swinging in for lethal.


LACK OF ARTIFACT CREATURES:
- There are many times where you lost fuel to Dagson i.e. you drew little to no artifact creatures. Tutor out Nuisance Engine. I used to play Myr Matrix before this card, but the early-game 5 was hard to reach. Nuisance Engine only requires 2 to generate a fodder to be tinkered for Dagson. It's your only cheap source of getting a recurrable artifact creature source. Indeed a nuisance for people out there.

- Tutor up Memory Jar or Tower of Fortunes to attempt to draw more cards and play off creatures. or Tutor up Crucible if you've nuked your Factories/Blinkmoth Nexuses so that you have food to feed Dagson

- Good artifact creatures that fuel dagson are Sharding Sphinx and Triskevalus.


LACK OF MANA:
This is explained above. If you have plenty of islands, grab a high tide effect (Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens). If you have a winter orb and little basic Islands, grab artifact mana (Gilded Lotus, Thran Dynamo). If you're stuck under your own Orb and don't have artifact mana, you can tutor for Candelabra under a high-tide effect to untap all your lands under Winter Orb.


PREPARING FOR MANA-RAMPING:
Here are some situations to boost mana (assuming enough Dagson fodder) and these are potent strategies under Winter Orb.

In play: Tolarian Academy
Tutor: Candelabra of Tawnos/Mycosynthe Lattice

In play: many Islands
Tutor: Gauntlet/Lens

In play: many Islands, Gauntlet/Lens
Tutor: Candelabra

In play: Mind over matter, 6 mana open
Tutor: Planar Portal and tutor up Tolarian Academy/Gilded Lotus
(at this point, if you have Tower of Fortunes, you can use Mind over Matter to untap it as you spend the mana from Academy into drawing cards, discarding to untap Tower and Academy, get mana tap draw, rinse and repeat. Basically, this is a tutorable version of the Arcanis-Mind over Matter combo).

In play: Mind over matter, artifact-mana/Academy
Tutor: uh, I think that's enough ramp in such a scenario.


COMMENT: Mind over matter is broken. I hope they don't ban it. Blue has gotten so much nerfs recently. If you were to ask me, the two most broken cards in the deck is Mind over matter and Tolarian Academy, followed closely by Planar Portal and Winter Orb. But yeah, in such a case, I would tutor for Tower of Fortunes to use that mana to draw untap mana draw untap mana rinse repeat.

The goal of all this mana-ramping is to win in a turn. When your mana-ramping engine is ready, use Dagson to tutor for Planar Portal, which tutors for Mind over Matter, which untaps Planar Portal, which tutors for Arcanis which draws your deck or you can tutor for other stuff if you don't like the Arcanis route. You just have to let your opponents know that if they don't have an action at any remaining time, you declare that you have infinite mana and with Mind over Matter, you'll have infinite draws, which leads me to the win-conditions:






WIN-CONDITIONS

Draw your deck via Mind over Matter/Arcanis or Mind over Matter/Tower of Fortunes. With Mind over Matter, you have infinite mana (discard cards you don't need).

Even if you don't have Mind over Matter, you should be able to assemble Planar Portal and a mana-engine in 2-3 turns if you're not disrupted, and while disrupting your opponents. As such, you can still get a couple of turns to go off.


Win-condition 1: Nevinryal's Disk/Oblivion Stone + Darksteel Forge + Mycosynthe Lattice
This blows up everyone's permanents except for yours since all permanents are now artifacts and Disk destroys artifacts. Darksteel Forge says that your artifacts are indestructible

Win-condition 2: Memnarch + Infinite mana = you own the game
Get infinite mana and an unstoppable Memnarch that takes all permanents to yours (including lands)

Win-condition 3: Karn + Mycosynthe Lattice
Armageddon's here as you turn their lands into 0/0 artifact creatures.

Win-condition 4: Karn + Artifacts
You don't have to draw your whole deck, but you shouldn't be able to deck yourself since Academy Ruins + with Mind over Matter allows you to start piling your graveyard back on top of your library. Meanwhile, you just use Mind over Matter to tap their permanents and beat in with your army for a couple of turns.

Win-condition 5: Junk Troller + Time Stretch
Keep putting Time Stretch back every turn, and you can beat with Dagson if you really wanted to.

Win-condition 6: Mindslaver + Academy Ruins
Slave everyone!


There's more win-condition but they're not as common. I've listed them in order on how you would win according to frequency.






SOME TRICKS IN THE DECK

I'll leave you to figure out what they do:

1. Lots of mana/Infinite mana + Memnarch (board control)
2. Karn + Mycosynthe Lattice (land destruction)
3. Master Transmuter recycling/"untapping" Gilded Lots/Mana Vault (mana engine)
4. Master Transmuter + Sundering Titan (land destruction)
5. Junk Troller + Time Stretch (infinite turns)
6. Mind Slaver + Academy Ruins (prison)
7. Nevinryal's Disk + Mycosynthe Lattice + Darksteel Forge (board sweeper)
8. Arcanis + Mind over Matter (card draw)
9. Mind over Matter + Tower of Fortunes + Tolarian Academy (card draw)
10. Planar Portal + Mind over Matter + Tolarian Academy (tutor your deck)
11. Crucible + Strip Mine (land destruction)
12. Memory Jar + lots of mana + Academy Ruins/Arcbound Reclaimer in response to Jar trigger (card draw)
13. Mind over Matter + Winter Orb (you untap your lands normally, they dont)
14. Mycosynthe Lattice + Tolarian Academy (mana engine)
15. High tide effect + Palinchron/Candelabra (mana engine)
16. Scarecrone + Solemn Simulacrum/Sundering Titan/artifact creature with comes-into-play ability + Dagson (recurring abilities)
17. Arcanis + Forbid (card draw)
18. Lots of mana + Capsize (board control)
19. Filigree Sages + Power Artifact (untapping)
20. Future Sight + Sensei's Top + Etherium Sculptor (card draw)
21. Memory Jar + in-response to Jar trigger -> Arcbound Reclaimer/Academy Ruins (card draw)


Lots more to be found! You only need 1 or 2 to win the game, but here are some good options.


For more information, please post here and your thoughts. These are my experiences with the deck, and I don't really play it much since it's an unfriendly deck. There's better EDH decks that are even worse e.g. Bryant Cook's Grim Long list lol but this one is from a Prison-approach.

If costs permit me, I need to get myself a Workshop and Manadrain. I just hope that the EDH group doesn't do so much bannings since it costs mana and time to dedicate to a deck.

Have fun!

Waikiki
07-09-2009, 10:36 AM
How does junktroller + time stretch give infinite turns ? whats the 3rd piece of the combo?

GGoober
07-09-2009, 10:52 AM
lol oops forgot to mention that you have to draw your whole library. So you cast Time Stretch and put it on the bottom of your (empty) library, and draw it again.

You win with that 0.0001% of the time. Usually I go off with Karn + Mycosynthe Lattice or Memnarch stealing all their permanents.

Waikiki
07-09-2009, 11:01 AM
Damn If im gonna play this general instead of sharuum I get hated even more. Does look like fun tho

GGoober
07-09-2009, 11:35 AM
I think the main attraction of this deck, like Braids Cabal Minion, is that it's a prison deck i.e. it wants to lock your opponent on Turn 3/4, making them slowcrawl their way. Most of the time, you will land your general and they won't even be able to play their general, let alone play much. I can testify that this is probably stronger than Zur 1v1, but Dagson probably sucks in multiplayer due to the hate. Decks like Rofellos can survive it 1v1 but that's due to the inherent mana acceleration that the general has. This deck is great against deck without fast acceleration or a cheap general without costly abilities. So it kills a lot of generals that require 4 or 5 mana to cast on the first turn.

The deck does have its weaknesses, a huge one is that it ABSOLUTELY only works like a gem with the general. If they hindered or get rid of your general, it's going to be difficult to play. Not impossible because there's still plenty of broken cards in the deck. It's just much harder to play since the deck wants to play a prison deck, rather than an accelerate-intp-fatty.dec.

You should sleeve it up and play it one day. It's just nice having a board of permanents and accelerants while your opponent untaps one land a turn :D

Sims
07-09-2009, 12:41 PM
You should sleeve it up and play it one day. It's just nice having a board of permanents and accelerants while your opponent untaps one land a turn :D

I do that with Grand Arbiter, although that's not a bad idea. I've been playing Arcum more as a combo general (Palinchron + Hightide effect. Infinite mana loop + Staff of Domination + Stroke of Genius/Mindslaver+Reito Lantern/Myr Matrix tokens) but maybe going a bit more prison isn't a bad idea.

I had a lot of fun playing "Stax" with GAAIV, though I cannot say the rest of my playgroup agreed.

One card I don't see in your list that actually puzzles me is Pithing Needle. I know you only get one use out of it unless it gets bounced or sac'd and recurred, but I have a few people in my group that play either combo decks/generals or have winconditions that strongly favor a particular activated ability, and having a tutorable needle (in my case 2 with sculpting steel) is REALLY a lifesaver. You have no idea how great it is to have a 5c Combo general e.tutor his Enduring Renewal for the win only to have you tutor out needle and hit Bombardment.

heroicraptor
07-09-2009, 01:09 PM
lol oops forgot to mention that you have to draw your whole library. So you cast Time Stretch and put it on the bottom of your (empty) library, and draw it again.

Or Planar Portal.

AngryTroll
07-09-2009, 02:11 PM
Of the broken blue cards, I don't see Opportunity or Tidings. Those are probably both solid enough for spots.

I've always like Arcum Dagson...I may try putting this together to see what happens.

Infinitium
07-09-2009, 02:17 PM
I've always enjoyed Akroma's Memorial in my Dagsson decks as protection of sorts as well as wincon. Voyager Staff served me well back in T2 and isn't horrible (well it is, but whatever) on its own either, as did Jester's Cap. Metrognome > Nuisance engine imo as mana shouldn't be an issue with Dagsson in play, but then again I never played Winter's Orb either. Su-Chi since manaburn is gone?

GGoober
07-09-2009, 03:49 PM
@Sims: Palinchron was in my list until I realized I was going off way more often with 3-4 lands than 6 lands so I took it out. It was in my list initially due to infinite mana engines with Gauntlet/Extraplanar Lens/Academy.

I mentioned that Pithing Needle is currently a meta slot. It definitely deserves a mainslot but currently, my meta has not run any combo or dangerous thing that I need to needle. It's listed in the opening post as a meta slot, i.e. definitely in the MD if needed (Trinket Mage/Dagson both fetch it).

@Infinitum: Suchi is worse than Cathodion in the deck since it is 4cc, and this deck needs 3cc creatures if possible. I took out Cathodion because it was cute, but did not do what it needed consistently even after post m10 rules. I might give it a shot again, but I want creatures that have a useful ability on their own in case I don't get Dagson online.

This deck isn't like the other Dagson EDH decks that beat with Memorial or use March of the Machines. I find both strategies less consistent. Prison effects under Orb or Ward of Bones are consistent since not many decks play with such a low land count. You force them to play your style while you cheat mana out like there's no tomorrow. I originally ran Myr Matrix > Metrognome, but the 5cc DID matter. Nuisance Engine is perfect, since 2cc helped a lot in the early game if I don't have any acceleration (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt). Myr Matrix is better in general since it doesn't need to tap but the 5cc is a little on the heavy side.

@AngryTroll: I should give those a shot, especially Opportunity. The reason why they're not in is mostly because of tight space. I do like the Future Sight SDT: pay :1: draw 1 card synergy, and if you get Etherium Sculptor, you draw your deck for :0: . I like cards that are have extended use (exceptions, Intuition, Frantic Search, Fact or Fiction, Gush since they are instant draws and do something else for the deck. Gush actually lowers your land count to lock your opponents under Ward of Bones). I'm not sure if Tidings/Opportunity is better than these draws since I seldom play EDH, and when I do, my friends complain that I am combo player, although this deck is clearly not a combo deck, but a prison deck. Unfun is the word, not combo player lol.

Here's a question: Is Artificer's Intuition worthwhile for the deck? It seems like a super strong tutor for Candelabra, Crypt, Sol Ring, Vault, Pithing Needle, SDT, Seat of Synod, or dumping artifacts in the yard for later recursion via Ruins/Arcbound Reclaimer.

heroicraptor
07-09-2009, 05:05 PM
my friends complain that I am combo player, although this deck is clearly not a combo deck, but a prison deck.

Your deck prisons until it can combo.

deadlock
07-09-2009, 08:34 PM
This deck looks very good, it reminds me a little bit of old school Tinker.
I am by no means a EDH player, but just want to make sure you have considered the following cards:

Looks awsome here:
Thirst for Knowledge
Voltaic Key

Draw/Win:
Stroke
Braingeyser

Permission:
Counterspell
Miscalculation
Misdirection

Prison:
Trinisphere
Tangle Wire
Mishras Helix
Rishadan Port

Acceleration:
Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein

Misc/ Jank:
Staff of Dominance
Pentavus
Crumbling Sanctuary
Upheaval
Petrified Field
Master of Etherium
Vedalken Archmage


Maybe you finde some of them immediatly useful, for the sketchy ones i can provide some explanation.

Nop
07-09-2009, 09:07 PM
Have you considered Possessed Portal and Myr Incubator? Possessed Portal serves as brutal version of Smokestack and Myr Incubator provides a hefty supply of artifact creatures for cheap.

Summoning Station combos nicely with Mycosynth Lattice, so it might be worth testing as a creature production engine. These two cards combine with Possessed Portal to produce a permanent lockdown.

Mind's Eye is a low-commitment draw engine. It has served me well in EDH games, and conveniently, Arcum Dagsson can fetch it.

If you haven't already, consider Magewright's Stone - two Arcum activations per turn!

GGoober
07-10-2009, 04:08 PM
@NoP: Magewright's Stone is a weaker version of Thousand Year Elixir. Not sure if I need 2 untap effects in the deck, although I was considering the equipment that gave shroud (the worse version of Greaves). Mind's Eye was in the deck, but this deck wins in 2-3 turns so drawing 3 cards is weak. For the same slot, Memory Jar is far better and used far more. It's draw 7 draws more than what Mind's Eye can draw. I guess if the meta gets a little more hateful against this deck, I'll play Mind's Eye for longer games. Possessed Portal seems interesting but situational so I'm not putting it in. So far, I have not found a better slot than Nuisance Engine for putting out tokens. There's no need for huge numbers of Dagson critters since you can only activate him once a turn (unless you have Elixir or Minamo or Mind over Matter).


@Deadlock: TfK and Key are definitely worthy targets and they've gone in and out since they seem to serve as a one-time use. But recently I've been thinking that if these cards are restricted in Vintage, there has to be a good reason since they're that good. I'm adding them in again.

I used to play stroke but this deck doesn't need to draw off a one-time instant. For a similar mana investment, Tower of Fortunes does better Tower of Fortunes costs 8 to draw 4 and stays in play for every activation. Stroke draws 4 for 7 mana, a little less but is only a one-time use. Tower of Fortunes is tutorable and recurrable if destroyed but not Stroke. However, I've removed Tower since I mostly find my draw effects through a tutorable and recurrable Memory Jar and the efficient 5 mana draw 7 is ample cards to go off with a Mind over Matter.

For many reason, this deck is hardly afraid of counterspells since it goes off very fast. Even if they countered Dagson, that's fine since you can pay him easily with all the acceleration. The only real thing you need to fear is Bant Charm and Hinder, and against such decks, you need to bait or try to get WOrb/Greaves out before Dagson gets online. My advice against such decks is to screw it, and just play it out. If you get Bant Charmed, too bad, drop a fatty and start beating. Counterspell is too weak for a deck that is fast and uses its mana heavily. I would play Mana Drain for sure though since a turn 2 Drain would accelerate into turn 3 Dagson + Stuff.

Prison:
Thought about Trinisphere, would be great under Winter Orb, but not many decks can work under Winter Orb itself. I don't like a vanishing Tangle Wire (remember I like stuff that lasts in the game). Mishra's Helix has been tested, and I find it seldom to tap their lands even with WOrb since they're forced to play higher cc spells anyway so tapping their lands isn't an issue. But it's definitely a good suggestion if I were to play against a more competitive multiplayer field. The problem with Helix is that I need to have Candelabra/artifact mana for it to be truly good on multiple upkeeps in multiplayer. Winter Orb does the job just fine since EDH is sadly reliant on its manabase.

Can't believe I forgot Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond. City of Traitors was in. And I think I'll play it again. The deal is I like basics in the deck, due to the hightide effects.

Misc/ Jank:
Staff of Dominance: No metalworker = not worth it. If Metalworker is here, it'll be in!
Pentavus: Tried it and replaced it with Triskevalus. I thought Pentavus made 7 tokens (lol penta = 5, so it's okay, not great)
Crumbling Sanctuary: Never tried it. I usually don't get attacked as people are struggling with their manabase.
Upheaval: banned in EDH otherwise amazing for a board reset and dropping a Ward with no lands :D
Petrified Field: Good suggestion
Master of Etherium: Terrible, I don't go beatdown
Vedalken Archmage: Not an artifact creature, so doesn't make the cut. I already have plenty of more broken draw engines.



I'm glad that people are liking the deck. Played against another player (Intet the Dreamer) and this time I didn't lock him out. Instead, I just got a bunch of cards/permanents on board and got the Disk/Forge/Lattice combo on turn 5 with Mind over Matter (no Tolarian Academies).

This was the outline of the play (rougly)
T1: Island, Mana Vault
T2: Island, Thrawn Dynamo, Dagson
T3: Island, Solemn Simulacrum, Dagsontinker Solemn->Gauntlet (4 Islands=8mana), Drop Disk and Scarecrone
T4: Scarecrone reanimates Solemn, drop Island, Dagsontinker Solemn->Candelabra, Drop Darksteel Forge + Planar Portal. With all the Islands from Solemn/Scarecrone, I untapped for plenty.
T5: Tutored for Mindover Matter, Scarecrone reanimates Solemn, Dagsontinker Solemn into Memory Jar, refill my hand, untap Dagson and untap Candelabra for enough mana to tutor up Mycosynthe Lattice and went off.

I could have gone a different route and prisoned him out, but since I drew into Disk and Forge, I figured might as well accelerate and play into them. It's just funny to see an opponent's general cost 6 and you go dancing: I can win before you play your general. Even Mayael and Rafiq have trouble getting down on turns3/4 against this deck.


Other possible updates to the deck:
+Voltaic Key or the tap 2 artifact untap target artifact.
+Pithing Needle
+Artificer's Intuition (seems really strong now)
+Chrome Mox
+Mox Diamond

GGoober
10-15-2009, 03:43 PM
Hey guys, update, here's the list I'm taking for PT: Austin EDH side events:


This post will serve as a primer for me updating the front page. I'll post both cheap and expensive versions of the deck. I managed to acquire a Mana Drain (ENG) and BE Timetwister through trades. I'll update the OP when I have time, so all these below are just me taking notes to write for the OP. The deck has evolved much from the OP, and this is by far stronger and a more optimal and directed gameplan and decklist.


GENERAL:1
1 Arcum Dagsson

LANDS: 36
1 Tolaria West
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter (what's a good land that taps U to replace for this? It'll be Mishra's Workshop otherwise if I have one).
1 Strip Mine
1 Dust Bowl
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Academy Ruins
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
17 Islands


ARTIFACT CREATURES: 19
1 Epochrasite
1 Copper Gnomes
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Millikin
1 Silver Myr
1 Manakin
1 Myr Retriever
1 Scarecrone
1 Skill Borrower
1 Arcbound Reclaimer
1 Master Transmuter
1 Filigree Sages
1 Faerie Mechanist
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sharding Sphinx
1 Duplicant
1 Memnarch
1 Sundering Titan

NON-CREATURE ARTIFACTS: 23
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Expedition Map
1 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divning Top
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tangle Wire
1 Staff of Domination
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Guardian Idol (would be metalworker if it's logically unbanned...)
1 Winter Orb
1 Grim Monolith
1 Nuisance Engine
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Memory Jar
1 Planar Portal
1 Mindslaver
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Mycosynth Lattice

OTHERS: 21 (INSTANTS/SORCERIES/ENCHANTMENTS/CREATURES)
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mana Drain
1 Hinder
1 Force of Will
1 Timetwister
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Time Spiral
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Fabricate
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Frantic Search
1 Intuition
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Future Sight
1 Power Artifact
1 Mind over Matter
1 Arcanis, the Omnipotent
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Stretch
1 Capsize




Noticeable changes:
- Gauntlet of Power/Extraplanar lens are now both out. This list goes all out on artifact mana now. Gauntlet was strong but I'm expecting monocolored decks like ROFLos and Erayo/Clique etc. Also, to get Gauntlet working, I need to tutor for both Gauntlet and Candelabra. Before ZEN, this was viable strategy, but since Expedition Map is printed, I'd go for more Tolarian Academy + Gilded Lotus mana in this build.
- Mind Stone and Chrome Mox came out for timetwister and Expedition map. The loss of speed is a huge factor, but I've been trying to tweak the deck such that it works even without Dagsson. The new draw7 strategy makes this both viable with or without Dagsson.


The new build focuses more on raw power of card advantage. Your draw 7s (Diminishing Returns, Timetwister and Time Spiral, Memory Jar) nets you more advantage under a Winter Orb. Frantic Search is back now with the heavier emphasis on Tolarian Academy. I still could not justify Trinket Mage. Looking at the entire list, I can't afford to cut another artifact creature which would make Dagsson less consistent, and looking at all the other card choices, I concluded that I would rather much draw into those cards than a tutor for Tolarian Academy.


So the final list looks pretty much like a Vintage MUC Tezz deck without Time Vault.

Card/Resource (real and pseudo) advantage comes from:
- Copper Gnomes
- Myr Retriever
- Scarecrone
- Skill Borrower (OMG if you flipped Sol Ring/Gilded Lotus/Planar Portal/Memory Jar/Karn/Memnarch/etc etc
- Arcbound Reclaimer
- Master Transmuter
- Faerie Mechanist (new addition, fits criteria of being at least 4cc i.e. Dagsson fodder after Dagsson comes into play)
- Solemn Simulacrum
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Staff of Domination
- Memory Jar
- Planar Portal
- Mystical Tutor
- Mana Drain
- Timetwister
- Diminishing Returns
- Time Spiral
- Transmute Artifact
- Fabricate
- Thirst for Knowledge
- Frantic Search
- Intuition
- Fact of Fiction
- Future Sight
- Arcanis, the Omnipotent
- Tezzeret the Seeker
- Time Stretch
- Mind's Desire
- Capsize

Different situations for win-conditions that I usually arise to:
(semi-infinite mana
- Memnarch/Capsize (good enough to put you ahead of the game).
- Draw7s and try to win or get advantage
- Karn
- Future Sight/Mind over Matter + Top for filtering

(infinite mana)
- Draw7s and try to win
- Memnarch/Capsize
- Staff of Domnination

Tezzeret:
- Untap lots of mana under WOrb and if you stall under WOrb, beat for win when he's at 5.

Karn:
- Beats with artifacts
- Lattice + Karn = 1cc Stone Rain.

Planar Portal:
- Tutors FTW.
- With Mind over Matter and Tolarian Academy, go off for insane advantage

Mind over Matter:
- With Top = 1 mana cycle a card (with Sculptor in play, fluctuator for free) and storm generator for Mind's Desire
- Untaps Dagsson/Gilded Lotus/Planar Portal/Tolarian Academy/Candelabra/Arcanis
- Arcanis = draw your deck

Future Sight:
- (Infinite mana) = win.
- With Top = 1 mana draw a card (with Sculptor in play, draw your deck) and storm generator for Mind's Desire

Staff of Domination:
- Great with Power Artifact.
- Greater with Power Artifact enchanting Grim Monolith or if you have an infinite/semi-infinite mana engine out.

Memory Jar:
- No explanation needed. It's great to go off with Mind over Matter in play.

Crucible of Worlds:
- 3 Waste effects makes for good wastelock early game while you function under artifact mana
- Never miss a land drop with the 4 Fetchlands

Darksteel Forge:
- Sharding Sphinx/your dudes go in FTW.
- With Lattice, your permanents don't die
- With Lattice and Disk, you win

Mycosynth Lattice:
- combo for infinite mana engine with Tolarian Academy + Filigree Sages, generates enormous mana with just Academy
- supports Darksteel Forge and/or Disk
- Allows Key to untap any permanent (Dagsson, Candelabra, Arcanis etc).

Master Transmuter:
- Cycle Sundering Titans for the win.
- Cycle Tangle Wires under Winter Orb to win.
- Cycle Faerie Mechanist to draw cards
- Resets artifact mana or Tolarian Academy is Lattice is in play.

Other than a couple of crappy artifact creatures, this list has cards that are each solid by itself, and most of the artifacts and blue cards are solid cards that are notorious in the history of magic.

Regarding how you should play your openings and tutors with Dagsson.

I usually do:

Against white-based deck with early removal e.g. Path/Swords/Oring.

- If your hand has draw spells/counters and has potential to land Dagsson fast and has no creatures to support after the first fodder, tutor out Nuisance Engine
- If your hand has no draw spells and has potential to land Dagsson fast and has creatures to support him, Tutor for Winter Orb
- If your hand has at least 2 fodders and potential to land Dagsson fast, tutor for WOrb/Tangle Wire depending on whether he tapped out (if he tapped out, get WOrb, otherwise Tangle Wire).
- If your hand has no counters/draws but enough fodder for Dagsson, tutor out Lightning Greaves, followed by either Nuisance engine/WOrb depending on your hand.


Against deck with mid-game removal e.g. Oring/Pernicious Deeds/Wrath/Damantion
- This situation is much easier for you. Just go for Nuisance Engine/Winter Orb depending if you have enough fodder, then grab up Tangle Wire and go off happily.

Against a deck with plenty of countermagic/bounce e.g. Clique
- Keep a hand that has at least FOW or a draw spell so that if Dagsson is countered, you have a backup plan. This is the MU where I'm not too experienced in playing on. I usually never play Arcum Dagsson unless I have mana to pay for something like Mana Leak or have a counter in hand. In fact, I try to keep hands where Dagsson is bad, and slow roll the game with good cards and keeping him mana-open in fear of Dagsson while winning without Dagsson. If he did tap out, then Drop Dagsson and protect him.

Against any other deck with no removal/counterspells:
- Proceed to win unless it's Zur/ROFLos/Karn racing your clock. Regardless, if it's either, you should know what to tutor out in response.

I like to tutor at the EOT where possible except when Tangle Wire/WOrb/Greaves is involved. This gives me option to decide what I need most in case Dagsson is about to die and I have no way out. In such a situation where Dagsson dies and you can't help it, I'll tutor out:
- Planar Portal: If I have mana to tutor every turn
- Winter Orb/Tangle Wire: If I have master transmuter
- Gilded Lotus: If my hand is strong with draw spells
- Memory Jar: If my hand is strong with draw spells
- Staff of Domination: Since it's a great card by itself
- combo pieces that can be assembled depending on the cards in your hand.

Blitzbold
10-16-2009, 02:59 PM
I hope this isn't a deck you use in casual rounds? :-)

Ectoplasm
10-30-2009, 08:46 PM
This looks pretty fun, I'm gonna try it out.
Why not pentavus btw? Seems pretty cool to do the 'make tokens, block, bounce tokens back' thing every turn.

freakish777
12-03-2009, 09:03 PM
You need to be playing Junk Diver in addition to Myr Retriever.

With both of them, your general creates card advantage in addition to tempo.

sco0ter
07-21-2011, 07:02 PM
I found this thread, as well as the excellent piece of Metalwalker's work on mtgsalvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=169174).

Both lists are from 2009...

Are there any updates, especially with some goodies from the MBS block?

Why is this thread so dead btw? I thought Arcum was one of the better commanders!?