[SCD]: Meekstone

[Skeggi]

Hello all, I've been trying to implement a golden oldie in my decks lately:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/262.jpg

The power of it is obvious. For only 1 mana you shut down Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers, Dreadnoughts, Nacatls and so on and so forth. The big downside is that they already should have attacked. So you may want to combine it with tapping effects.

Another nice thing about Meekstone is that you can include it in your Trinket Mage toolbox.

I've been testing the following deck, let's call it "A Decent Homebrew Deck", ADHD for short.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
6 Islands
2 Swamps

4 Dark Confidant
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Meekstone
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Counterbalance
3 Back to Basics

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Meekstone has proven it's worth against quite a few decks. Unfortuntately, the weakness in this deck is that you have too much draw to maintain Counterbalance and too little power to deliver a good punch.

One of the nice features in this deck is Vedalken Shackles. You can steal a creature, attack with it, and give it back tapped. The downside is that they see this coming and simply refrain from playing a creature. While this is strong, as said before, you draw too much to maintain Counterbalance correctly. Although it does sound like something that can be overcome :wink:. Too much draw still sounds like a luxoury problem to me, so I guess it just needs some tuning.

I just know you guys can do better. What do you think? What would you run? Or wouldn't you run Meekstones at all?

[Mooglar]

less meeksstones more tmages

[Shugyosha]

I've played something very near that list with Spellstutter Sprites and Vials couple of month back.

Problems with Meekstone are (after several tournaments):


Big creatures like Terravore/Crusher simply wait to attack once for lethal (after Assault/Dreams cleared the way).
Creatures >3 are still good in defense against your weak creatures which drags the game out if you don't have more than four evasion critters (and Jitte). After boarding this leads to situations where you ping your opp with your guys and he has enough time to draw Grip for Meekstone.
If it hits too late you are toast nevertheless.
In your deck: You steal creatures that would end the game quickly if you don't play Meekstones.


Best list I build was with lots of evasion critters, Jitte and Burn.

One thing I still want to test is Bitterblossom + Meekstone but I guess Blossom + Shared Triumph etc. would be simply better.

[Nessaja]

Meekstone looks like a card that needs to be abused with Doran to me.

[Valtrix]

If you're looking for something to tap, fire//ice may be useful, although it's significantly weaker for you since you have no red. Problems of meekstone have already been mentioned.

I like the control magic effects quite a lot, though keep in mind with only 8 islands it might be somewhat difficult with shackles to get some creatures, especially since you want to be going for basics so that back to basics doesn't hurt you too much. Speaking of that, how has wasteland served you? It feels somewhat out of place here, especially since the deck wants to get a fair amount of mana on the board.

[Skeggi]

Meekstone looks like a card that needs to be abused with Doran to me.

That's an interesting idea.


Speaking of that, how has wasteland served you? It feels somewhat out of place here, especially since the deck wants to get a fair amount of mana on the board.

I think it once kept a Zoo deck off white. But that's it.

[roopa]

Whenever i think of meekstone, i think of wake thrasher. In the right deck, wake can easily be one of the biggest creatures on the board, and works amazing with meekstone.

[Bigface]

It was used ages ago in some SB of Burn lists. No drawback, stops beaters.

[MTG-Fan]

Play this with, um, Orb of Dreams!

I wonder if you could work this into some kind of Stax build? Or would it be better in a Fish deck where your guys are power <2?

[Kuma]

I've wanted to try it in a UGb Madness shell. Mongrel, Rootwalla, Wake Thrasher, Trinket Mage, Equipment, etc.

Problem is that the deck is too reliant on Meekstone.

[DrJones]

Meekstone is a good card, but it's not played for the same reason Stasis is not played, I fear.

[MTG-Fan]

Ok, so I've been thinking about how to reliably abuse this some more. Obviously, for starters, you definitely need a deck with 4 Trinket Mage, that goes without saying.

But to solve the problem of creatures being able to attack once before being locked down by Meekstone: How about something like Goldmeadow Harrier, or the new guy in M10: Blinding Mage? Or even something like Flood?

Maybe you could build a UW fish deck around this. Trinket Mage, Meddling Mage, Goldmeadow Harrier, Meekstone, etc.

Ooo, how about... Plumes of Peace? Uncounterable creature-tapping! If you can manage to put Meekstone out on the first turn, as long it isn't destroyed, you have a pretty reliable creature lockdown. I think if you use Plumes of Peace, you can go down the path of a more traditional UW control deck and not a fish deck. Hmm.

[chokin]

If decks are waiting for lethal to attack, maybe toss in a "tap target permanent" effect like Icy Manipulator or Gigadrowse (both kinda yuck). Just Brainstorming ideas.

[MTG-Fan]

If decks are waiting for lethal to attack, maybe toss in a "tap target permanent" effect like Icy Manipulator or Gigadrowse (both kinda yuck). Just Brainstorming ideas.

Brainstorm the post directly above you :)

[hi-val]

You actually want Stormscape Apprentice for tapping with Meekstone. The Meekstone works really well in a deck like Wizards, and Space Stormy fits right in there. I've also heard tell of it being good in Tezzerator decks, which currently haven't made a real splash in Legacy, but could see some love.

The big hurdle to playing Meekstone is that you have to want it more than you want Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. If you'd rather have one of those or both, then Meekstone is really awf.

[chokin]

Brainstorm the post directly above you :)

Oops. I had like 10 tabs open and by the time I got to reply to this one, I didn't see yours. My mistake!

[beastman]

With tribal gaining popularity, I'm sure this cards effectiveness will go up.

[Fossil4182]

Pretty good suggest. It has a random effect that I would roughly compare with Ankh of Mishra. It has a randomness factor and also a very cool soft lock factor. I like this card's application against a lot of decks, however sometimes its much too situational.

Merfolk are a great example of this. If you catch Merfolk with a few lords out, then you can effectively soft lock a lot of their creatures. Additionally, decks that rely on Goyf will be shut down pretty effectively.

There are two decks that I see this card being exceptionally powerful against, the first of which is Zoo. Zoo tends to run a lot of creatures which are power +3 which makes them particularly vulnerable. However, a few things to note is that playing this card will de facto ensure that every burn spell with be going to the dome. Additionally, Zoo has access to Krosan Grip which will shut this card down fairly quickly and avoids CounterMagic.

The other deck I could see this being particularly strong against is Dragon Stompy. All of its creatures are hurt by this. Dragon Stompy does have Chalice which would shut this card down, but my guess is that any deck running this card would have to to stop Chalice at one anyway. However, even better is that most Dragon Stompy decks don't have a way to deal with it game one and some of the newer lists on DeckCheck have forgone artifact removal.

If this card is going to be extremely effective, it needs to be combined with something that will tap out creatures. I could see this card going in some sort of UW fish deck. Even running a late game card like Cryptic Command to tap out and (X) seems like a good move with this out. Just some thoughts though.

[coraz86]

I don't know if it helps their bad matchups or not, but Merfolk would love this in conjunction with Merrow Reejerey, I think.

[JustCurious]

I also think the best place for Meekstone would be some amalgamation of Fish and Stax. Tanglewires to tap out the board, Trinket Mage with an artifact tool box to tutor them (Meekstone) up, and other cheap 2 or 1 power creatures that also serve as utility, such as Shadowmage Infiltrator and Dark Confidant for a draw engine. Perhaps Meddling Mage as well. Hell you could even throw in Sensei's Divining-Top and Counterbalance just for fun.

[Anusien]

Kismet or the blue planeshifted Kismet?

I've SBed Meekstone in CB/Top because it's fine to take one hit from Progenitus as long as the guy stays tapped down. I can't imagine building a combo around Meekstone when I could just Moat though.

[Michael Keller]

Kismet or the blue planeshifted Kismet?

I've SBed Meekstone in CB/Top because it's fine to take one hit from Progenitus as long as the guy stays tapped down. I can't imagine building a combo around Meekstone when I could just Moat though.

Meekstone just isn't worth the slot. If you're playing Kismet (God forbid), you're better off sticking with something to keep it shut-down...like Stasis (I can't believe I just said that). It's fine I suppose in the narrowest of decks, but to be rid of a threat is better than to simply have it tapped down momentarily.

But there's no way I'd ever build a deck around Meekstone. Moat is much harder to stop and does quite a bit more for you.

[Skeggi]

But there's no way I'd ever build a deck around Meekstone. Moat is much harder to stop and does quite a bit more for you.
Yeah, but the obvious answer to this one is that Moat costs :2::w::w: and Meekstone only :1:. That's kind of a huge difference. Even if you're playing white.

[Michael Keller]

Yeah, but the obvious answer to this one is that Moat costs :2::w::w: and Meekstone only :1:. That's kind of a huge difference. Even if you're playing white.

Right, but Meekstone doesn't stop an attack. It merely holds down a creature after the fact. Moat, on the other hand, can stop an impending alpha strike all together. If you're looking to play it as a single target for Trinket Mage or something, I can see the novelty. But there is no reason to run an inferior card when facing prevalent decks like Ichorid, Goblins, Merfolk, etc., which would have a field day through Meekstone. If a player was smart, they would attack through Meekstone. Then, once the player is softened up, and they find the way to remove it, that's extraordinarily bad news.

Assuming one is playing Moat, they are probably playing some control variant (aside from Enchantress, perhaps). And being able to remove a threat from the board permanently is much more effective than banking on the latter. Moat may cost 2WW, but that is usually no problem in decks built to support it.

I'm not saying Meekstone is bad, I'm simply implying it is not optimal because it does not eliminate threats - at all.

[Elfrago]

Rather than play Kismet I would go towards the UW (and maybe even a third color) fish route with Trinket Mage, Stormascape Apprentice/White Kithkin Tap Guy and so on. Those cards, while not bombs, are better than Kismet on their own. Wake Thrasher has a nice sinergy with Meekstone too, right?

[MTG-Fan]

Right, but Meekstone doesn't stop an attack. It merely holds down a creature after the fact. Moat, on the other hand, can stop an impending alpha strike all together. If you're looking to play it as a single target for Trinket Mage or something, I can see the novelty. But there is no reason to run an inferior card when facing prevalent decks like Ichorid, Goblins, Merfolk, etc., which would have a field day through Meekstone. If a player was smart, they would attack through Meekstone. Then, once the player is softened up, and they find the way to remove it, that's extraordinarily bad news.

Assuming one is playing Moat, they are probably playing some control variant (aside from Enchantress, perhaps). And being able to remove a threat from the board permanently is much more effective than banking on the latter. Moat may cost 2WW, but that is usually no problem in decks built to support it.

I'm not saying Meekstone is bad, I'm simply implying it is not optimal because it does not eliminate threats - at all.

We were discussing ways to build a Fish deck around Meekstone, which, with tapguys, would basically turn it into a "Creatures with power greater than 2 cannot attack" for 1 mana.

So if you can find the right deck to incorporate Meekstone, it might actually be better than Moat.

[Michael Keller]

We were discussing ways to build a Fish deck around Meekstone, which, with tapguys, would basically turn it into a "Creatures with power greater than 2 cannot attack" for 1 mana.

So if you can find the right deck to incorporate Meekstone, it might actually be better than Moat.

So basically, you want to play Wall of Suboptimal Artifact.

It just isn't worth the slot. There are more prolific ways in dealing with larger creatures your opponents control, like, say, playing pump effects built within your creatures or even evasive measures built in to them. You want to maximize the effectiveness of your dudes and Meekstone is only going to delay the inevitable.

Play more bounce effects or things that can stall by forcing an opponent to recast the spells and tapping out.

[MTG-Fan]

So basically, you want to play Wall of Suboptimal Artifact.

It just isn't worth the slot. There are more prolific ways in dealing with larger creatures your opponents control, like, say, playing pump effects built within your creatures or even evasive measures built in to them. You want to maximize the effectiveness of your dudes and Meekstone is only going to delay the inevitable.

Play more bounce effects or things that can stall by forcing an opponent to recast the spells and tapping out.

Why bother with bounce effects and pump effects when you can just completely shut down opposing fatties for 1 mana and a some creatures with tap abilities?

[Zach Tartell]

Why bother with bounce effects and pump effects when you can just completely shut down opposing fatties for 1 mana and a some creatures with tap abilities?

Because then you have to play creatures with tap abilities.

I think it's time we all stopped whining about budget concerns or flavor or whatever and all purchased a playset of Tarmogoyf.

[jimirynk]

I think the problem with meekstone is their to many decks it doesn't hurt.
Plus the decks it won't be effective vs. you need to able pressure.
It is cool as a one of for trinket mage but recurring e.e. and top for CB just seems stronger.


On another note I have played mono blue with a trinkmage tool box and it ran 2 cryptics to tap their goyfs before they swing and 2 wishes with a cryptic a a gigadrows in the board.

My creature win was 1-2 rainbow efreet, attack phase out.
99% sure it comes into play untapped??

[Michael Keller]

Meekstone isn't a bad card. It just hasn't been played enough and made an impact in a competitive Legacy deck (more than often) to be considered tremendously useful at this point. With Gencon on the horizon, perhpas we can get a better idea how good it really is. Otherwise, its utility is rather mediocre and will never be considered a top-quality choice.

Remember, some lists are very tight and there are options that far exceed Meekstone's utility. It does cost just one colorless, so that is a positive. Ironically, it doesn't stop some of the more serious aggro decks in the format.

[Skeggi]

On another note I have played mono blue with a trinkmage tool box and it ran 2 cryptics to tap their goyfs before they swing and 2 wishes with a cryptic a a gigadrows in the board.

My creature win was 1-2 rainbow efreet, attack phase out.
99% sure it comes into play untapped??
I'm 100% sure it doesn't.

502.15b During each player’s untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all permanents with phasing the player controls phase out. Simultaneously, all objects that had phased out under that player’s control phase in. (See rule 217.8, “Phased Out,” and rule 302.1.)

502.15h Phased-out cards “remember” their past histories and will return to play in the same state. They “remember” any counters they had on them, any choices made when they first came into play, whether they were flipped when they left play, and whether they were tapped or untapped when they left play. They also “remember” who controlled them when they phased out, although they may phase in under the control of a different player if a control effect with limited duration has expired.
This means a tapped creature that phases out needs the untap step to untap.

I think Meekstone's biggest drawback is that it prevents you from running big stuff like Tarmogoyfs and Vendilion Cliques. I've tried Meekstone a couple of times in a few decks, but the main weakness of the decks is usually that it lacks a punch. It may be viable in some Landstill build with Trinket Mages, but as Hollywood pointed out, Moat would be a better choice there.

[Jak]

I ran Meekstone in UWR Fish. It was pretty decent as a 2 of to stop the bigger dudes while my weenies ran over.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

3 Trinket Mage
4 Serra Avenger
3 Lightning Angel

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance

4 Swords
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Meekstone
1 EE
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic

4 Brainstorm
2 Top

Something like that. It was fun.

[Skeggi]

Right, ofcourse! Vigilance! How could I have missed that! That's actually pretty cool :cool: