Tribal to Diminish in Presence in Legacy?

[arebennian]

I was reading through the Vial Affinity thread when 4Eak, the deck's primer writer, noted something that I thought warrented it's own discussion. The original link is at the bottom if you really wish to read the original discussion, but I have cut and pasted the relevant sections:


4eak said

The average power of the format only continues to increase. That trend is likely to continue. Affinity will rarely (if ever) be a benefactor, and will continue to trend downwards in proportional power to the rest of the format. I see a decay in the viability of a deck which has little room for improvement or innovation in a format that continues to evolve into a stronger and harsher environment.

As far as I can tell, decks that can play random, undercosted creatures are the most likely to continue to be viable in the future of Legacy (i.e. Fish/Grow/Zoo). Combat synergy decks will decline (not overnight, but overtime).

Then this in response to a request for clarification


@ Pltnmngl

Do you also mean Tribal when you mention "combat synergy decks?" Because I don't think they'll ever die now. Wizards is catering to them too much. In fact, only more tribes will pop up as the game progresses.

Tribal included.

We've seen many different tribes actually become playable, but none are dominant. Catering will make no difference. In time (it could be quite a while for some), Combat synergy decks will fade. Even Goblins has been kept in check, and not by any combo winter (the assumed bane of its viability), but rather by the big green creature.

While WoTC clearly wants to make their tribal fans happy, they aren't going to make the same tribal mistakes like "Goblin Lackey" anymore. Even M10 really didn't do 'all' that much for Tribal decks (although, I think the elf lord is the best in the set). I will admit though, I think Goblin Lackey + goblins will always have a shot at winning, but I'm not convinced by any other tribe.

Wizards has, however, continued to create isolated, powerful, and extremely undercosted creatures in many colors. Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant type creatures are the real future of Legacy. Yes, WotC gives some love to Tribal/synergy decks, but they will continue to produce those 1-2 chase rare creatures each block that are vastly superior to any tribal card as standalone creatures.

Combat Synergy Decks require multiple parts to be effective. They remain consistent (the real strength of a synergy deck), but their ramp is easier to disrupt and too linear. Tribal decks will plateau (some already have). No individual card in these decks are really all that great by themselves; their reliance upon the other pieces in the deck is also a weakness.

I'm very serious in the primer; Synergy is a two-edged sword in decks like Vial Affinity or Tribal decks. There are hardcapped ceilings to innovation and improvement in these archetypes, and it is quite unlikely that they'll be the real benefactors of the so called 'power creep'.

Eventually, Combat Synergy decks just won't be able to catchup to the raw power of random Fish/Zoo hands. Fish/Zoo are wide-open archetypes that transform gracefully, they are flexible, and they are the most likely benefactors of upcoming randomly awesome cards. Fish/Zoo will experience power gains where Combat synergy decks will not.

What is everyone's elses on this philosophy?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12604&page=8

[DrJones]

I think it's bullshit. If any, synergy is the stronger force in the format, which is the reason goblins, merfolk, and soon elves are competitive archetypes when since the game's inception they have always been joke decks.

[Nessaja]

There's some error in the reasoning:

While WoTC clearly wants to make their tribal fans happy, they aren't going to make the same tribal mistakes like "Goblin Lackey" anymore. Even M10 really didn't do 'all' that much for Tribal decks (although, I think the elf lord is the best in the set). I will admit though, I think Goblin Lackey + goblins will always have a shot at winning, but I'm not convinced by any other tribe.
While this is true - the exact same counts for Tarmogoyf. It was a mistake by Wizards. It's much easier for Wizards to print tribal cards that are potentially broken in etneral format then individual cards that are broken, quite simply because a tribal card can be an awesome combo with a really old card and an individually strong card doesn't need that.

Also keep in mind that at this moment there are two tribal decks that are either dtw or dtb, they're already strong. Unless functional reprints of Tarmogoyf start to get printed I'm fairly sure that tribal decks will keep growing stronger. In addition, more tribes should become viable.

[Maveric78f]

I'm sorry to say that I agree with DrJones.

For long Gob has been the top tribal deck. Now (and since about a year) it is Merfolk (even if I think that the strength of merfolk is the concept, not the tribe, and that this deck is better with creatures that are good on their own). Post M10, it's clearly going to be elves, because countermagics can't do anything against (for everybody, countermagic is the solution to everything currently), because Gob is a bye for elves (has always been), and because it has alternative wincon/engines with NO and survival. Even against combo it's better than gobs because it's got ESG that powers out their starts.

Actually, I'm not even sure that elves are fair with archdruid.

[LostButSeeking]

I have a huge amount of respect for Merfolk decks. I’ve had my skull crushed by those fish on a number of occasions. But if you look at those lists, they look pretty much the same. The same is true of goblins, dredge, and affinity and a number of other decks. Very solid decks, but they are all very uniform. The decks are good at what they do, and are streamlined to do it as well as possible. The dredge lists have gotten so slick that they’re currently arguing the one remaining “flex” spot in the maindeck.

Now, take a look at Zoo, Landstill, Counter + Top, or Tempothresh lists. There’s a lot of variation, especially among the creatures. There is certainly a lot of agreement on what the best creature to run is, but there are a number of options for experimentation ranging from Mystic Enforcer to Dreadnought to Sower of Temptation. This range of experimentation allows for more metagame adaptation—a metagame heavy in black can run the enforcer, or if you were in a combo heavy metagame, you could run black and more discard.

You can’t run discard in goblins. Or in affinity. If you’re in a combo heavy metagame, you just shouldn’t play affinity. Because the goblin draw engine—Goblin Ringleader—only draws goblins, goblin decks had a lot of trouble with fatties because they couldn’t draw their removal. This particular problem was at least partially fixed when Warren Weirding was released, but it shows the sort of stiffness and inflexibility that arises when you pursue the power of synergy to its natural end.

I don’t think—and I don’t believe 4eak thinks either—that these types of “powerful synergy” decks will go away immediately or entirely. They’re too powerful for that. Merfolk decks (with counters) and goblins (with land destruction) have discovered ways to disrupt almost any other deck, giving them a degree of uniform protection that Dredge or affinity—probably the most extreme example of this type of deck—lack. And with the yearly core sets giving opportunities for regular new tribal cards (so that tribal decks don’t have to wait between tribal blocks for their power-ups), they may never go away.

But—and this is a big but—when the next ‘tarmogoyf’ comes along, something flexible but not easily shoehorned into a tribal deck, tribal decks will find their powers diminished. Set chase rares are rarely helpful for these kinds of decks, even something as ubiquitous looking as thoughtseize has a difficult time finding a place in Affinity. And if enough of these cards are printed, far, far in the future, we might see the tribal decks fall off of the DTB forums.

[Elfrago]

First, I agree with 4eak.

Second, I don't really care, I can live with that.

And last, this could be a good question for our actually unemployed Legacy Adepts =)

[rockout]

I'll be a happy man when merfolk, as a deck, is no longer viable.

[Grollub]

If anything tribes will become more and more dominant, as time goes on. Better tribal creature/card => Better tribal deck repeat n times and the tribal deck will become strong. Creating new under-costed creatures ala Da Goyf results in new strategies and inherit synergies and doesn't increase the power level in the traditional sense - as it's now in truth a different deck (compare the ancient Zoo, Miracle-Gro and ancient Landstill with their current state, it's not a fair comparison as it's different decks).

[Tacosnape]

Tribal will stick around forever for three reasons.

1. They keep printing new Tribal cards to make tribes more powerful. No, they aren't going to print Goblin Lackey again, but they just need to keep printing cards that are in the top six or seven for their tribe. Where once Goblins and maybe Slivers were the only tribes you'd see, now Merfolk is winning tournaments and Elves are poking their heads into metagames. Even Wizards becomes more viable by the day, with Mage/Confidant/Lavamancer/Cursecatcher/Sower/Voidmage Prodigy to choose from.

2. Tribal decks, compared to a lot of other legacy decks, are fun, cheap to build, and will be played a lot.

3. Tribal decks aren't that much worse than non-tribal decks to not win games.

[ScatmanX]

Cards like Warren Weirding's are what make tribes to keep going. The format slowly changes, but every deck does the same. I guess we have nothing to worry for now.

[Otter]

If you go to deckcheck, most of the winning Affinity lists run Master of Etherium. That's five blocks after Affinity's printing and the deck gets a creature that's legacy-playable. I don't see where the argument is here, Wizards is always going to end up printing random things that have good enough synergy to see play.

Or take Goblins, for example. What if Wasteland and Rishadan Port had never been printed and the next block had them? That would be a huge buff to Goblins, but neither card is even remotely related to tribal Goblins (and for the sake of the example, take Goyf out of the picture as well).

[DrJones]

I would like to point that Tarmogoyf is synergy at his finest. He is good because there are staples like the saclands, lotus petal, and such that work very well with him, and even if its power looks ridiculous now, it will get even better as soon as WotC prints new tribal cards and planeswalkers good enough for legacy play.

He will routinely become an 8/9 for 1G, ugh.

[FoolofaTook]

Tribal decks have the built-in weakness that they require continual reinforcement in the specific tribe to remain strong. Non-tribal decks can theoretically be strengthened by any over-powered card that is printed of the appropriate color, type and CMC. Tribal decks require specific reinforcement to enhance the overall tribal effect, and every non-specific reinforcement that might help them weakens the overall tribal structure already in place, because odds are the non-tribal power replaces a tribal element. Also the non-specific reinforcements help the meta in general as well as the tribal decks that use them.

Throw in the fact that there are only so many powerful cards in each set and WotC isn't going to give the best tribes a dominant card when there are other tribes to reinforce instead and you get kind of an inevitable decline in overall power for the best tribes over time as other tribes are promoted.

Look at Merfolk and Goblins for a good example of this effect in play. Merfolk have gotten a half dozen fairly strong cards over the last year or so and have become quite strong as a result. Goblins have also received reinforcements, but their reinforcements with a couple of exceptions have allowed a diversity of different goblin decks to emerge instead of strengthening the dominant goblin archetype of 2006. So Goblins now are weaker than Merfolk. Both will lose power relative to Kithkin over the next year is my guess. The diversity of tribal decks will increase but none of them will become extremely powerful in the process.

Look at Tarmogoyf versus all tribal archetypes. Goyf has strengthened the majority of the highly competitive decks in the meta against all tribal decks and has diminished the overall power of tribal as a result. The odds are better that a truly dominant card will be printed that strengthens the meta against tribal than that each of the main tribal decks will receive a reinforcement that allows them to enhance their effectiveness against the meta as a whole.

Throw Goyf into Merfolk and they are stronger but they are less Merfolk.

[Pltnmngl]

I think you guys are missing the fact that he said it won't happen quickly. It will be a long, long process. He meant that synergy-based decks will diminish slowly over time because of decks that will contain a combination of powerful cards and creatures that make great impacts on their own (ie Fish or Zoo).

Edit: Also, Goblins shouldn't count in this discussion. Wizards have done a lot for them, making them more resilient to this "evolution."

[Aggro_zombies]

Edit: Also, Goblins shouldn't count in this discussion. Wizards have done a lot for them, making them more resilient to this "evolution."
That last part is not true.

When I started playing this format in mid-2005, Goblins was hands-down the deck to beat. If your Goblins matchup was 50-50 or worse, your deck simply wasn't viable. People were crying about how ridiculously dominant the deck was, how they needed to ban Goblin Lackey, how bad the Goblins deck was for innovation in the format.

Then they printed Tarmogoyf, and Goblins suddenly wasn't as scary anymore.

Goblins is still around, sure, but anyone who cries about banning Goblin Lackey today would be dismissed as an idiot, and rightfully so. The whiners back then were idiots (much like the ones who whine about Counterbalance now), but at least the sentiments behind their complaints were understandable and probably widely felt, if not quite so passionately. The problem is that one random creature - a mistake, sure, but so were potato chips - completely invalidated the total dominance of one deck and handed it over to a cluster of other decks (blue-based aggro-control). Goblins is now merely a "fair" tribal deck, one of several to choose from, but it isn't "the" tribal deck, and it certainly isn't the Deck to Beat like it was at the height of its power.

Would Goblins still be dominant if Tarmogoyf hadn't been printed? Maybe, but probably not. Its total dominance had been slowly waning for a while prior to Goyf's printing; Goyf just ended it overnight instead of over months.

[Skeggi]

I'll be a happy man when merfolk, as a deck, is no longer viable.
Well yeah, you're a Landstill player. The only deck you fear is Merfolk.

[Omega]

Well yeah, you're a Landstill player. The only deck you fear is Merfolk.

You also fear Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh because they can draw more mana denial than you can draw land :D

Robert

[MTG-Fan]

That last part is not true.

When I started playing this format in mid-2005, Goblins was hands-down the deck to beat. If your Goblins matchup was 50-50 or worse, your deck simply wasn't viable. People were crying about how ridiculously dominant the deck was, how they needed to ban Goblin Lackey, how bad the Goblins deck was for innovation in the format.

Then they printed Tarmogoyf, and Goblins suddenly wasn't as scary anymore.

Goblins is still around, sure, but anyone who cries about banning Goblin Lackey today would be dismissed as an idiot, and rightfully so. The whiners back then were idiots (much like the ones who whine about Counterbalance now), but at least the sentiments behind their complaints were understandable and probably widely felt, if not quite so passionately. The problem is that one random creature - a mistake, sure, but so were potato chips - completely invalidated the total dominance of one deck and handed it over to a cluster of other decks (blue-based aggro-control). Goblins is now merely a "fair" tribal deck, one of several to choose from, but it isn't "the" tribal deck, and it certainly isn't the Deck to Beat like it was at the height of its power.

Would Goblins still be dominant if Tarmogoyf hadn't been printed? Maybe, but probably not. Its total dominance had been slowly waning for a while prior to Goyf's printing; Goyf just ended it overnight instead of over months.

This is true, but all it takes is for Wizards to print some ridiculous undercosted, overpowered Goblin in a future set to bring the deck back to its former dominant status.

[4eak]

Before I address some comments, if you took the time to read the thread itself, you'll notice that I think Combat synergy decks are currently quite viable in many metagames. This was a longterm prediction, not an explanation of today's metagame. I think my prediction (and explanation of it) has a much larger timeline than most of you appear to be assuming. Widen your scope to see much further into the future, and I think my conclusions would make more sense to some of you

Recent sets have created some combat synergy decks (mostly Tribal), but this doesn't point to future improvement in those Tribes, but more likely the future improvement of completely different Tribes. Current competitive Combat synergy decks are not going to receive the major buffs; only unknown and previously unplayable tribes will be brought out of the woodwork. With new sets, you are going to see the creation of new tier 2 Tribal decks, not the evolution of tier 1 Combat synergy decks to keep power level parity with the ever 'power creeping' Goyf+Goodstuff.decs which have less restricted deckbuilding requirements.


@ DrJones


I think it's bullshit. If any, synergy is the stronger force in the format, which is the reason goblins, merfolk, and soon elves are competitive archetypes when since the game's inception they have always been joke decks.

Synergy is the stronger force than what in the format? The discussion is not about Synergy in a broad sense, it is about Combat synergy decks. Tribal, D&T, Vial Affinity are the decks which clearly qualify (Ichorid is a bit more complicated). If you still don't understand, then re-read a bit more carefully.

I don't think Goblins was ever a joke deck in Legacy. I didn't say the deck would ever be a joke either. It will have longevity that no tribe will match. The shell is the most moldable, adapting to possess CA strategies, aggro/combo roles, disruptive roles in up to 2 more colors, and it has the most innately broken cards of all the combat synergy decks. Even with those strengths, Goblins will eventually decline.

I'd want to be extra careful in how we define 'competitive archetype' as well. I look at the DTB forum, and I believe those decks are viable in nearly every realistic metagame I could conceive. On the other hand, the vast majority of the decks in the Established Deck forum have more conditions to viability; they require more specific metagames to actually be considered.

Goblins and Merfolk are currently the only Combat Synergy decks which are broadly competitive. The rest aren't competitively viable unless you are metagaming.

With that in mind, you should also refrain from confusing the transition from ['joke deck' to 'conditionally competitive'] with ['joke deck' to 'broadly competitive']. Merfolk is the only Combat Synergy deck that has made the second transition (Goblins was already there).

More importantly, the fact there more types of Tribal decks doesn't signify there are a higher proportion of successful combat synergy decks being played in the general metagame. For the most part, I just see lots of tier 2 deck combat synergy decks. They might be played en masse, and not necessarily because of their competitiveness (e.g. Tribal players might prefer Flavor to Win percentages), but that isnt an indication of future viability.


@ Nessaja


While this is true - the exact same counts for Tarmogoyf. It was a mistake by Wizards. It's much easier for Wizards to print tribal cards that are potentially broken in etneral format then individual cards that are broken, quite simply because a tribal card can be an awesome combo with a really old card and an individually strong card doesn't need that.

I disagree with the idea that Wizards is more likely to print profoundly awesome cards for a specific Tribal cardpool than for the the general cardpool.

The general cardpool is just outright much, much larger than any Tribal cardpool. There are way more interactions in the general cardpool to consider. Take for examples, Painter, Life from the Loam, Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant.

Some of these cards are individually strong and some aren't. They all, however, have way, way more interactions in the rest of the general cardpool than any specific set.

New sets generally benefit the general Legacy cardpool more than Combat synergy decks. Wizards will continue to make mistakes, and they will likely be some random chase rares that aren't designed for Combat synergy decks. Just look in the past years what new cards have actually seen the most playtime in competitive Legacy. Most of the influential cards are generic, not specific.


@ Maveric78f


For long Gob has been the top tribal deck. Now (and since about a year) it is Merfolk (even if I think that the strength of merfolk is the concept, not the tribe, and that this deck is better with creatures that are good on their own).

I want to expand on this.

I think you've pointed to it: Merfolk is much less of a Combat Synergy deck than goblins. Merfolk is barely tribal in my eyes.

There are 16 necessary Merfolk creatures in the deck. The rest of the deck is primarily composed of the blue-control shell and Standstill-symmetry breakers (vial/manlands/waste).

There is way, way more flex in Merfolk than other Tribal decks. More importantly, roughly 40 out of 60 cards have nothing to with merfolk -- it is the blue control shell that forms the deck's success. The actual Merfolk are just a compact set of cards threats that synergize and answer other blue decks. I could just as easily replace those 16 cards with generic staples like Goyf, Dark Confidant, CB-Top, and still have a great deck.

The purer the Combat synergy requirements, the less flex in the deck. Merfolk isn't the real synergy behind the deck, it is just a well-metagamed addition to most important synergy of the deck, which is the generic blue-control shell.

Merfolk is a terrible counterexample to my claim that Combat synergy decks will fade. Merfolk is a deck that shows us that transitioning [actual Combat synergy] to [generic synergy shells] will put up better results.


@ Tacosnape


Tribal will stick around forever for three reasons.

Obviously, my point is not that Tribal decks will disappear. People will still try to play them. My point is that Combat synergy deck viability will fade in time (tribal included). Viability is not the same as Decks played. Widen your scope of time, and I think you might be willing to reach the same conclusion I have.


@ ScatmanX


The format slowly changes, but every deck does the same. I guess we have nothing to worry for now.

True. Unless you are interested in securing the value of your cards.

@ Otter


If you go to deckcheck, most of the winning Affinity lists run Master of Etherium. That's five blocks after Affinity's printing and the deck gets a creature that's legacy-playable. I don't see where the argument is here, Wizards is always going to end up printing random things that have good enough synergy to see play.

The argument is that Affinity is unlikely to have the same degree of power creep as the the general cardpool. Goodstuff.dec will proportionately receive more benefit from future sets than Combat Synergy decks across the board.

Decks with generic deckbuilding requirements are more likely to benefit from future cards than decks with very specific deckbuilding requirements (Combat Synergy decks).








peace,
4eak

[Aggro_zombies]

This is true, but all it takes is for Wizards to print some ridiculous undercosted, overpowered Goblin in a future set to bring the deck back to its former dominant status.
4eak talked about this a lot in his post here, but I'll reiterate it anyway: decks without tribal synnergy are in a much better position to benefit from the printing of random good cards than decks that are looking for specific things (like, say, a powerful Goblin creature). Wizards is much more likely to print a randomly good [insert any kind of card here] than a randomly good Goblin creature.

The other thing that 4eak didn't address much, but which bears mentioning, is metagame shifting. Blue-based aggro-control decks today are in a much better position to keep Goblins in check than they were prior to the printing of Tarmogoyf, simply because Goblins grinds to a halt as soon as Tarmogoyf hits the board. Goblins either has to overextend into a cycled Gempalm, or splash black and find Warren Weirding stat. Threshold decks splashing red can heavily punish the Goblins player for attempting either through the use of cheap burn and strategic counters, and white Threshold now has access to cards like Rhox War Monk, which make it more difficult for the Goblins player to race against fewer guys with superior size. Wizards would have to print an insanely broken Goblin to negate the Threshold's deck strong consistency and role-changing powers.

Tribal decks that have emerged recently are doing so only partially due to the addition of new tribe-oriented cards. As 4eak said, Merfolk is basically tempo Threshold with different animals and a slightly different game plan. In that respect, it's like a Sliver deck, except it doesn't roll over and die quite as badly to board control, and being all in one color makes the deck much stronger versus mana denial strategies. However, if the cards it got from Lorwyn and Shadowmoor had been printed during Onslaught block, you can bet that Merfolk still would not have been viable until after Tarmogoyf was printed. The deck's power comes as much from having BlueDeckwalk as it does from having good creatures.

Elves is also a deck that has benefited from new cards, but I'm not certain it's past the Tier Two point right now. Elves can hit as hard as Merfolk versus Threshold thanks to Tropical Island, but it has neither Merfolk's control elements nor Goblins' raw combat power and consistency. Natural Order into Progenitus is probably not strong enough to put it on par with either of the two premier tribal decks in the format.

Tribal won't leave Legacy entirely, but it will be more at the mercy of the metagame than most other decks. Merfolk becomes pretty mediocre without a certain density of blue decks to prey upon, and Goblins will be held in check by the relative strength of board control and defensive creatures in other decks (or by combo, which won't happen anytime soon).

[Maveric78f]

I'm sorry. I don't follow your argumentation. Tribes are very good at what they are and do. But what they are and do is incomplete. By definition, tribe cards are synergic because their cards are and do the same to some extent (same type, subtype, resources). Consequently, the cards they get from new prints are more rare but also more powerful than new universal prints.

Non tribe decks use cards probably less powerful but morecomplementary. Their strategy is not to be or do the best in one domain, but to face any situation. They are generally metagame decks that are difficult to hate and that are able to hate most top tier decks.

I don't think their is any logic that tends to prove that the one or the other will mechanicly better take benefit of new sets. I don't believe neither that there is any trend in wizard design to favor the one or the other. It is even in their interest to balance both deck types and that they are aware of it.

Just one thing to add. Something may be true but u don't think that anybody explicitly pointed out: tribal decks usually get better by being overpergomed by another new tribal deck, while non tribal deck are more or less always the same and evolve by new prints additions. As a conclusion, there is maybe a logic to think that current tribal decks will disappear, but that tribal decks in general will never disappear.

[morgan_coke]

I <3 posts with the word "argumentation" in them.

[luckme10]

I guess the reason why merfolk lack the goblin's combat synergy is because although WoTC started Merfolk as the main blue tribal deck, they didn't like the idea of merfolk fighting with land creatures... I mean they can't fight on land... so they have no business doing so.

However, I believe a reoccuring support for the tribal creatures can create a pool of legacy format viable cards, as the 'power creep' continues to unfold. This holds true as long as wizards maintains a certain degree of tribal synergy to 'consciously' produce otherwise overpowered cards. See Mike Flores summary of Silvergill Adept. http://www.wizards.com/MagiC/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mf164 That said, I really hope someday Merfolk will possess the combat synergy more similar to that of Goblins, as there are cards in the archtype such as Lord of Atlantis that have withstood the test of time, as opposed to being the latest rendition of 'fish' merfolk will actually have an archtype of it's own. Now print my merfolk lackey...

[MMogg]

See Mike Flores summary of Silvergill Adept. http://www.wizards.com/MagiC/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mf164

Yeah, Flores is great in that article :rolleyes: :


Don't you think every blue deck in the world would go straight for Too Good?

We don't want that. We don't want automatics. Formats where every deck has exactly one Zuran Orb are boring. We want worlds where the limit to the selection of cards in a deck is the creativity of its designer, not the number of cards on the restricted list. Emphasis added.

*cough* Tarmogoyf *cough* He's about as auto-include as they come. Good job R&D for making an auto-include for people playing every colour.

A bit off topic, but hell, the thread was necroed anyway.

[ddt15]

I think goyf was terrible for the format; right now it boils down to play color x's control or aggro shell, now its a decent deck, add 4 goyfs, now its a great deck! Whoa! Goyf is much, much more powerful than Lackey ever was. Yes he dies to every anti creatures spell, but you can dedicate so much cards in your deck to control that he'll rarely die. I remember thinking Wild Mongrel was by far the best two drop ever printed and Wizards was crazy, but it pales in comparison to Goyf. Goblins and Affinity are hardly competitive decks any more. If you play against Zoo for example you don't stand a chance at all. All their creatures cost less and are much bigger. Not to mention they can devote much more card slots to other cards just because Goyf will make up for the mess anyway.

[Maveric78f]

Look at the top8 lists guys. You'll see more wastelands/brainstorms than tarmogoyfs. And tarmogoyf is overhyped. It's not an autoinclude in every green deck playing creatures.

[FoulQ]

I think goyf was terrible for the format; right now it boils down to play color x's control or aggro shell, now its a decent deck, add 4 goyfs, now its a great deck! Whoa! Goyf is much, much more powerful than Lackey ever was. Yes he dies to every anti creatures spell, but you can dedicate so much cards in your deck to control that he'll rarely die. I remember thinking Wild Mongrel was by far the best two drop ever printed and Wizards was crazy, but it pales in comparison to Goyf. Goblins and Affinity are hardly competitive decks any more. If you play against Zoo for example you don't stand a chance at all. All their creatures cost less and are much bigger. Not to mention they can devote much more card slots to other cards just because Goyf will make up for the mess anyway.

You are wrong on so many levels.

The power of goyf is a multivariate kind of thing, goyf alone is not what makes goyf-based decks strong. He is an effective win con, nothing more. This is like saying Rome collapsed because of one reason. No. He was just the tipping point more than anything.


Yes he dies to every anti creatures spell, but you can dedicate so much cards in your deck to control that he'll rarely die.

Yes, we call this a CONTROL deck, and they have EXISTED FOREVER.


Goblins and Affinity are hardly competitive decks any more.

When was affinity competitive again? A deck with 56 of their cards in the same set not being competitive makes me happy, that shouldn't be what the format is about. And Goblins is currently a DTB. Merfolk is another tribe that is a DTB and elves are nothing to scoff at.


If you play against Zoo for example you don't stand a chance at all. All their creatures cost less and are much bigger.

Yes, a bad matchup, they exist, oh my god. This is the theory behind a zoo deck, combine a lot of colors to play the most efficient creatures, wow what a shocker. So goblins is no longer dominant. Oh no? It's magic the gathering, it happens. You honestly want a format that is still dominated by goblins in 2009? That would have been the most boring 2 years ever.

Casual players love random tribes. Especially it seems like women, an untapped (lolz) audience. They will always get new warren instigators to play with.

[arebennian]

Look at the top8 lists guys. You'll see more wastelands/brainstorms than tarmogoyfs. And tarmogoyf is overhyped. It's not an autoinclude in every green deck playing creatures.
It's true!
There are valid green decks where he is not an auto include. For example Combo Elves, Survival Elves, NO Elves.........

About the only Green centric creature deck he doesn't go into is a very control centric Rock or Gifts Rock, and even then it could be disputed. Can you given me any others? (without derailing the thread.)

[Michael Keller]

When was affinity competitive again? A deck with 56 of their cards in the same set not being competitive makes me happy, that shouldn't be what the format is about. And Goblins is currently a DTB. Merfolk is another tribe that is a DTB and elves are nothing to scoff at.

I've never been a fan of Affinity as an archetype, but I can assure you that placing that deck in the hands of a skilled player can be very destructive when sitting across the table playing against it.

People tend to forget that Magic is a "flavor-of-the-month" type game; something hot will pop up next month and phase out something in a similar vain that might not be as powerful. Granted, optimization and general improvements have something to do with this, but people love playing decks that win. It's a chain reaction that has existed since the game began. It's called mimicry and I could go on and on about the social implications involved with a topic like this. Magic is a social game, so you get the picture.

Unfortunately, people completely forget that a deck that might not see as much play as it used to (a la Affinity) can still be considered competitive and place-worthy in a given population of players. Therefore, one can assume that Tribal decks may see limited play in the coming months and years, but that doesn't relinquish its capability to still play and win tournaments (which can actually benefit those who play it with the element of surprise and lack of preparation from opponents).

[FoolofaTook]

That said, I really hope someday Merfolk will possess the combat synergy more similar to that of Goblins, as there are cards in the archtype such as Lord of Atlantis that have withstood the test of time, as opposed to being the latest rendition of 'fish' merfolk will actually have an archtype of it's own. Now print my merfolk lackey...

Merfolk and Goblins are never going to have equal strength on the board because Merfolk and Goblins are also never going to have equal strength in the hand. Merfolk are a tribe that can easily protect their presence on the board. This gives them a decided defensive advantage over Goblins, who are prone to being swept easily and need to be able to alpha-strike suddenly as a countermeasure.

If Merfolk were given the tools to strike as quickly and powerfully as Goblins can then the balance would shift heavily in their favor and Goblins would go extinct as an archetype.

[Maveric78f]

It's true!
There are valid green decks where he is not an auto include. For example Combo Elves, Survival Elves, NO Elves.........

About the only Green centric creature deck he doesn't go into is a very control centric Rock or Gifts Rock, and even then it could be disputed. Can you given me any others? (without derailing the thread.)

Actually I was thinking of Rock and Elves. I really don't like it in Bant Loam neither, but nowadays, there's nothing better...

[ddt15]

All this talk doesn't change the fact that goyf is too good in too many strategies. How many of the DTB's run goyfs as a key card? Goyf pushes out a lot of strategies just because its fatter and faster than a phyrexian negator, with no drawback. Goblins doesn't warrant its DTB status at all, its a tier 2 deck at best. Same with affinity except its even worse. Yes in the hands of a great player it will still be decent but why would those players play it over a real deck? Why is worldgorger dragon and goblin recruiter restricted but goyf isn't? They were never as dominating. Facing goyfs 6 times in a row in a tournament is one of the biggest turnoffs about legacy. Its not fun.

Can't wait till the price drops after it rotates out of extended so even more people will play it.

[Maveric78f]

How many of the DTB's run goyfs as a key card?
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6074/dtbdtw.png (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/dtbdtw.png/)

How many do play Tarmogoyf?
3/8

How many do play Fow?
5/8

How many do play brainstorm?
5/8

How many play wasteland?
4/8

How many play top?
4/8 (maybe less, depends on builds)

What's the fuss about tarmogoyf? It's because it's the card that is actually killing you, so that you can't see you've lost because of a well played brainstorm or FoW?

[FoolofaTook]

According to deckcheck.net, which only registers top 8 finishers, Tarmogoyf is played twice as often as it's next closest creature competitor.

That would be 9921 inclusions in top 8 decks compared to 4380 for Dark Confidant.

As Maveric78f pointed out Force of Will and Brainstorm are the most played cards in the format and go into decks at a 4/3 ratio over Tarmogoyf.

For people keeping track of which creatures are played, #3 in the list is Mishra's Factory at 4223, #4 is Nimble Mongoose at 2827, #5 is Mogg Fanatic at 2658. All of which suggests that the list goes back a ways and also that Tarmogoyf is likely even more represented recently than shown in the list because it's a younger card than the others and was not around for the early years of Legacy like they were.

[ddt15]

According to deckcheck.net, which only registers top 8 finishers, Tarmogoyf is played twice as often as it's next closest creature competitor.

That would be 9921 inclusions in top 8 decks compared to 4380 for Dark Confidant.

As Maveric78f pointed out Force of Will and Brainstorm are the most played cards in the format and go into decks at a 4/3 ratio over Tarmogoyf.

For people keeping track of which creatures are played, #3 in the list is Mishra's Factory at 4223, #4 is Nimble Mongoose at 2827, #5 is Mogg Fanatic at 2658. All of which suggests that the list goes back a ways and also that Tarmogoyf is likely even more represented recently than shown in the list because it's a younger card than the others and was not around for the early years of Legacy like they were.
Well i find these numbers staggering in a pool where you have access to every creature in the game except dragon and recruiter. We all know brainstorm and fow are the cornerstones of any blue deck, and they see play in combo decks as well (heck i even run fows in ichorid). So at a 3/4 ratio that is three goyf decks and a standstill deck. Thank you for this information foolofatook.

[FieryBalrog]

Goyf warps the format and should probably go, but that really isn't the point of this discussion, is it?

[Humphrey]

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6074/dtbdtw.png (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/dtbdtw.png/)

DTB List



Well, The Source lacks in actuality, when it comes to DTB. Decks like EvaGreen, Dredge and Stiflenought are DTB but not on the list, while others aren´t still DTB like Landstill and (*sniff*) Goblins

So, it changes the ratio. But many more archetypes run goyf, like rock, survival even merfolk and elves are using it.

I agree, Goyf is format warping, maybe even breaks it. But will they ban goyf, now it has reached 50$? A lot of player would lose money, so this is very unlikely.

[Kangaxx]

Combat Synergy Decks require multiple parts to be effective. They remain consistent (the real strength of a synergy deck), but their ramp is easier to disrupt and too linear. Tribal decks will plateau (some already have). No individual card in these decks are really all that great by themselves; their reliance upon the other pieces in the deck is also a weakness.

It sounds like he's talking about card prices here. What does this have to do with making a viable deck, tribal or not?

[FieryBalrog]

Stiflenought is DTB? :laugh: Not since Qasali Pridemage, no. Stiflenought is actually performing pretty poorly.

Similarly, I have no idea how you got that Eva Green is DTB. Bgx decks are doing rather poorly... Goblins and Landstill, believe it or not, are still putting up decent numbers.

Dredge ironically can never really be a DTB for now because as soon as it gains DTB status it loses it :laugh: It has this weird relationship between its presence in the metagame and its chances of winning; the more it wins, the more people play it, and then the more it doesn't.

[Captain_Morgan]

I think it's not so much tribal, but lack of certain tribes like Soldiers, Dwarves, Knights, and other teams that don't get much attention. Goblins got a huge boost in Onslaught, but also stands to reason to have a ton of other advantages due to their sheer numbers.

Most of the "semigood tribes" lack from synergy or cards that are good but have too high mana cost. Soldiers have been gaining steam which is nice, but some of the other subtribes like wizards and clerics need some focus. Zombies are another factor that has way too many lords, but lacks a good drive under 3 mana cost.

In conclusion, it can be too much homogeneity and lack of diversity within tribal themes that can create repetition. The real issue is that WoTC doesn't print key cards for certain tribes that would bring them up a notch on the power rung. Too many tribes these days are like one or two cards off from being actually some what competitive.

And wth:

Captain_Morgan
Pirate=!Cool

I like rum, not pirates!

[Humphrey]

Stiflenought is DTB? :laugh: Not since Qasali Pridemage, no. Stiflenought is actually performing pretty poorly.

Similarly, I have no idea how you got that Eva Green is DTB. Bgx decks are doing rather poorly... Goblins and Landstill, believe it or not, are still putting up decent numbers.

Dredge ironically can never really be a DTB for now because as soon as it gains DTB status it loses it :laugh: It has this weird relationship between its presence in the metagame and its chances of winning; the more it wins, the more people play it, and then the more it doesn't.

Dreadstill is still doing good. Pridemage is only in one deck and its a 2CC creature which can be handled pretty easy by UR-Still
Look here: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=SCG+Legacy+5k%24+Boston

EvaGreen 3rd Place GP Chicago: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=27711
Also (here in germany) on every tournament someone plays a evagreen/picula list.

Dredge is the reason many decks pack gravehate in the SB, because you have to expect it. Thats what makes it a DTB..


Landstill is almost dead exept maybe Walker, but thats rarely played and has its own thread here.
I havent seen a goblin list in the top 8/16 on any bigger tournament in the last year(s)