GRb Welder Survival

[LoveLeaf]

Survival of the Fittest has and will be one of the best two mana engines ever printed in Magic.

Goblin Welder is a cheap, efficient, reanimator.

Sensei's Divining Top needs no praise.

Tarmagoyf is big.

The Deck
// Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
2 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Shield Sphere
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Goblin Welder
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Chrome Mox
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 2 Platinum Angel
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

I know that this list isn't what you normally see in a Survival deck, but I've found this list to be consistant, fast, and sometimes brutal.

Card Choices
Most of the card choices are pretty self-explanatory, but I'll try to go over as much as I can to help explain how I got to this point.

I guess I'll get the obvious out of the way first. The heart of the deck lies in these cards:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
2 Triskelion
1 Anger
1 Squee
2 Shield Sphere

This was essentially the heart of the original, blue, Welder Survival by Ian McInnes and it remains mostly intact. The two Trikes are for reach, being able to trade Trike for Trike and burn your opponent out of the game is helpful in more ways than you can imagine, but I'll try to cover all of that in the Tips and Tricks section.

Sundering Titan blows up mana bases, while Platinum Angel puts a stop to most combo decks.

Anger fuels this deck, I almost added in a second, he's that important. Who knows maybe down the line we will all decide that is the right call, but for now it's at one.

Shield Sphere is your 0cc Artifact Creature, he's big, he blocks ground bounders for a while and when you don't have the artifact already in play, he's your guy.

4 Chrome Mox
3 Quirion Rangers
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

The three Rnagers is definitely unconventional, but once I put them in there I never wanted to turn back. They are almost vital to the Goblin Welder strategy as well as being amazing at dodging Wastelands. Not only that, but when you run out of lands in your hand, this guy actually produces mana, and can produce a fair chunk if you have a Birds or a Rofellos in play. He also has the added bonus of being surprisingly versatile, a lot of people don't really see a lot of the tricks this guy can do, and that will inevitably make them mess up. This aspect unfortunately will go away with time if people start paying attention to him more, but hopefully we'll be able to win a fair amount of games with his trickiness before that happens.

Rofellos is here as a one of for if you need to hardcast your fatties. With Anger and three Rangers in the deck he seemed to me like an obvious way to get around the fact that this is a graveyard based deck in a format that can and will hate the crap out of your graveyard.

There are only three Birds because it was between {4 Birds, 3 Mox} or {3 Birds, 4 Mox} and Chrome Mox won out because its an artifact that can pump out a turn one Survival, and that is such a strong play I wanted to be able to do it as consistantly as possible.

3 Tarmagoyf

Oh, big boy was not about to get left out of the fun. He makes hands without Survival so much better, and hell if you don't feel like you need to show your opponent the Welder combo game one, get Anger and start dropping hasty Goyfs, they'll shit themselves trying to keep up.

1 Wickerbough Elder

You need the answer to Counterbalance game one, and he's a 4/4 beater. He can blowup artifacts as well, making him the obvious choice for this slot over Hooligan or Zealot.

3 Eternal Witness

This number is so high because I've found it to be a very essential piece to the puzzle. Being able to get back Survival, discard spells, or even and essential one of like Stompy. Witness is a powerhouse. Period.

3 Sensei's Divining Top

A cheap artifact, that helps me search for my engine pieces. Sign me up! When you don't have the Survival, Top really smooths out what can be a random deck with a lot of one ofs. It can be Welded into more useful things when you find it unneeded, but until then Top will serve you well, but I'm sure you already knew that looking at the top decks in the format already.

2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

Game one against a lot of decks can be tricky and these cards definitely help out. Letting you know when you can do stuff, and when you should hold back a little. They can also be pointed at yourself to dump a fatty in the graveyard so you can Weld it, which is rare but fun.

The Sideboard
Games two and three are definitely much trickier than game one. Game one you have the element of surprise, games two and three you do not. People will take advantage of this. You are a graveyard based deck, and there is much hate for you running around.

4 Pithing Needle

That's right, all four. You need to stop Crypt. Against CounterTop decks, I normally side out my Tops and the two Thoughseizes for 3 Needle, 2 Grips, just to be on the safe side, but if after game 2 you see a Crypt, game three the fourth comes in. Remember you can always Weld them out in a pinch.

3 Krosan Grip

Stupid Counterbalance...

3 Tormod's Crypt

Just in case you need them, they also have the added bonus of being a cheap atrifact so you can recur them or even get rid of it if you don't need one just yet.

1 Bayou
2 Platinum Angel
2 Thoughtseize

These are your anti-combo tools. Do not side out any Quirion Rangers against combo, they are very handy for keeping an Angel in play with a Welder.

Take out the Mountain for the Bayou if the aren't playing Wasteland.

Tips and Tricks
I can't possibly go over all of the tricks this deck has, but I will try to cover all the ones I can.

The ideal hand with this deck is:

1 Survival
1 Chrome Mox
1 Fatty/Anger
2 Lands (a Fetch, Mountain, or Taiga included)
1 Green Card
1 Tarmagoyf or whatever

This lets you go:
First turn - Survival using Chrome Mox.
Second turn - Pitch Fatty/Anger and get Fatty/Anger, whichever you didn't have already. Pitch it for a Welder, and then play Welder. Weld out Chrome Mox for a second turn Fatty.

Now obviously this is a rare occurence, but it's still pretty awesome to see the look on your opponents face when it happens.

Things to note about Game One
Game one is tricky, I mentioned earlier that sometimes you don't want to show your opponent the Welder combo. Knowing when to go off and when to just play a Survival deck that drops hasty Tarmagoyfs is a very key trick. I can't really convey this concept via computer very well, but i can says to pay attention to what deck your opponent is playing, how the game is progressing, and what tools he has available to him. So, pay attention to what's going on or you might just lose yourself in the confusion that this deck can produce.

Quirion Ranger

This tricky little nymph is probably one of my favorite cards in the deck. She counters Wastelands, untaps Birds for more mana, untaps Tarmagoyfs for the defense, produces mana when you don't have anymore lands in your hand, and is and all around versatile card, but we already covered most of that.

Imagine this senario.

You have a Trike in play, two lands, a Survival, and a Goblin Welder. So you you are sitting pretty. You have a couple creatures in your hand that don't seem important at this point in time and another Trike that you drew for your turn. There is a Mox in the yard from when you Welded in Trike and an Anger. A Trike swing and a few fetches put your opponent at 13. You swing with the Trike again knocking your opponent down to 9. What next? You pitch the Trike in your hand and you go grab a Quirion Ranger. You play the elf, with your last land, and start shooting. Three from the first Trike puts your opponent to six, you Weld it out for the other. Shoot again. They're at three now. Untap Welder with Ranger and the game is yours.

Now if that second Trike had been a Sundering Titan. What's your play? Pre-Combat you ditch him and grab a Ranger. Play the Ranger. Bounce back the Taiga, and putting the untap trigger onto Welder on the stack. Shoot your opponent down to 10 with Trike, and Weld it out for Titan, blowing up your land and some of theirs, Welder untaps. Play Taiga and swing with Titan dropping your opponent down to three. Your untapped Welder and the Trike in the graveyard finish the game.

All of this is even more possible with another land. Letting you either get a Shield Sphere, to Weld out, or even get the Fatty if you didnt happen to draw it.

There are too many little puzzles like this to go over all of them, but you get the idea. Being good at this deck relies a great deal of being able to solve puzzles like these, so practice. Don't assume anything and practice as much as possible before even thinking about taking this deck to a tournament.

Eternal Witness/Cabal Therapy

This is one of the oldest tricks in the book, so don't forget it's there. And don't forget that all your discard can be pointed at yourself when you need to get a Fatty in the graveyard.

Use Survival during your Upkeep

If you know that you are going to use Survival that turn, no matter what you draw, thin out your deck during your upkeep and hopefully you'll draw a needed land. The difference it makes is small, but every little fraction helps, so don't be a dumb dumb.

Please if you feel the need to add more to this list, post it up and I will edit it into the main post

Cards that were left out
There are some cards that need considering and should be tested. Help with this section is greatly appreciated, so please let us know what you think the deck is missing.

Inkwell Leviathan

He's fat, extremely hard to kill, and virtually unblockable. The only downside is that it would be a struggle to hardcast him if you needed to.

Aether Vial

There are a large number of 1-2cc critters in this deck, and Vial is a cheap artifact. Maybe some number of Tops, Vials, and Chrome Moxes would make the deck a lot more well rounded than it is.

Buried Alive

The blue version of the deck ran Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge in case you didn't draw a Survival as a back-up plan. The deck is currently just running Tarmagoyfs and Tops as it's backup plan. Maybe a couple Buried Alives would add to the consistancy of the deck.

Duplicant

I'm waiting on a rules question to be answered before I make my final decision about this one. He was strong in the original deck, and will probably be just as strong now, we will see.

.
Practice, Practice, Practice

This deck can and will give yourself and your opponents headaches until you are bleeding from your ears. Practice, and maybe one day it'll just give your opponents headaches. Go through every senario you can think of, and try to come up with cool tricks and subtle moves you can make in order to gain the advantage. Watch the progression of the game, know what roles to play at what times and how to play those roles when the time comes.

This deck is fun because it is a never-ending puzzle. Don't get frustrated, just have fun, and play the cards.

Sincerely Yours,
LoveLeaf

P.S. Please don't muck up the thread with negativity. Constructive critisism is always welcome, but in a polite manner, don't be a douche. If we can build off of eachothers ideas, maybe we can turn this deck into a fighting force. I'm up for the challenge if you guys are.

[Carabas]

Why use stomphowler over wickerbough elder?

[nastynate]

I've always thought having a back-up means of planting fatties in the yard and a back-up means of reanimating them was key this type of strategy. Have you considered running buried alive and/or animate dead along side SotF and welder?

[Elfrago]

Inkwell Leviathan? He fits well in your "God Hand" quick fatty plan, avoiding being screwed by a single StP

[sco0ter]

Did you test the blue version with Intuition and Brainstorm too? If yes, was it worse then the black version with discard?
2 Trikes look a little bit unnessecary to me, although there is trick...
I once played against a similar version but without Chrome Moxen, but with Aether Vial. This one was very good too, with all the one drops in this deck.

Also what about Nullstone Gargoyle or Ethersworn Canonist?

[MTG-Fan]

Wow, finally a cool Legacy deck with Goblin Welder.

[Waikiki]

Isn't there allready a thread of this deck ?

Hey what do ya know Found it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2620&highlight=goblin+welder)

[sco0ter]

Wow, finally a cool Legacy deck with Goblin Welder.

finally?? This deck exists since... well, since Legacy was born...

[Philipp2293]

Mr. Baxter does not approve sarcasm.

[LoveLeaf]

Wickerbough Elder is definitely better than Stompy and will be edited into the main post.

Inkwell and Duplicant should also be covered in the main post as well. Inkwell is just huge, and vurtually unblockable in a format with so much blue. I think one should be added to the maindeck.

Duplicant is iffy. I have a rules question for him though, I know that in the CephalidLife deck that was running around a while ago used Tarmagoyf as its Sutured Ghoul target to make him huge. Now, if you Duplicant a Tarmagoyf, does he become a 0/1 or or whatever the Tarmagoyf should be? If a rules guru could let us know Duplicant should definitely be added to the main, otherwise I think he can stay out of the fun.

To answer some other questions, Ian McInnes and I used to work very closely on the blue version of this deck together a while back. I think that this version of the deck is stronger in the current meta.

Buried Alive seems subpar, but will get tested just to see.

Aether Vial seems amazing and will also get tested, but I don't like the idea of losing the very powerful first turn Survival, but consistancy and resilience never hurt anyone, so we'll just have to see.

[sco0ter]

@rules question: I think it should work with Duplicant, too. So he is NOT 0/1, but whatever Tarmogoyf would be. P/T change of Duplicant may change then, too, depending on the graveyard. But I am not sure here.

The turn 1 Survival should happen very rarely only, I think, so losing this opportunity wouldnt make a big difference. Vial allows for a faster turn 2/3 and makes Welder uncounterable, too.

An interesting side note: On deckcheck.net all Welder Survival decks (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Welder+Survival&format=Legacy) do not run Tarmogoyf. Personally I don't like him neither in that kind of comboish deck...

[LoveLeaf]

Personally I find Goyf to be a great card in the deck. He helps when you can't combo, if you haven't drawn Survival he's good by himself, and just makes the deck a little less reliant on the engine. If you find him unnecessary, by all means take him out. I have no problem with the all out combo list of the deck, but I prefer to have him in there as a back-up plan.

Also, almost all of the WeldSurv decks you are probably looking at are from before Goyf was even printed.

[Tacosnape]

If you're running Welder and Quirion Ranger both in multiples, I would look into Arcbound Overseer in place of your second Triskelion. This gives you the ability to Weld anything into Overseer, untap your Welder, and Weld Overseer into a Triskelion with 9 +1/+1 counters on it. Or into a 13/16 Sundering Titan.

This is way into the danger of cool things, but so's Welder Survival, so if you're assuming your deck's going to work, you might as well maximize the efficiency.

[AngryTroll]

I really like that you have a lot of bombs in this deck (Survival, Goyf, Welder conditionally). What I don't like is that Welder is so dependent of Survival. If you get to untap and set up Welder, you probably should win anyways (setting up a chain of Goyfs) with Survival.

I remember the old lists ran Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition to set up Welder in addition to Survival. Instead of black for Thoughtseize and Therapy, you can run blue for Daze and possibly Force of Will. If you run 4 Thirst, 4 Daze, and 4 Force, you're getting close to the critical mass of blue cards you need. Even if you don't want to run the countermagic, Thirst and Intuition seem like they're worth the splash.

[Shinbei]

I really like this deck.. and for myself tested many versions trying to get away from the oldschool GRU build. Fin and Complete Jank from mtgsalvation started to try builds without intuition and used white for enlightened tutor.

Whatever..

Duplicant is a must.. with welder and rangers he is just incredible.
I tried some versions with Sharuum and Magister Sphinx what is often an instant win but as you said.. you cannot hardcast these little bastards. I also added 2-3 Reanimate as a backup plan (now thought of animate dead instead just because there are too many cc1 spells)

Next I miss Duplicant, Shriekmaw or any other sort of desruption

Buried Alive is nice imo.. you can start doing crazy things without sotf in game.. but what to cut?

One more question.. did you never had problems with you mana base? 18 lands are really few imo.

[Finn]

Ahh, another Welder Survival thread. Lemme save you some work, loveleaf. You will need either:
1. some dependable way to get Survival into your hand by turn 2 or 3 just about every game or
2. a reasonable path to victory that does not involve Survival of the Fittest.

Right now you have neither.

Likely possibilities for #1 in your colors include Diabolic Intent, a Transmute card, and your prayers.

The classic approach for #2 involve an essentially aggro approach. It is hard to manage in the same deck with the Survival toolbox, so you have to skimp big time.

3 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Shield Sphere
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Nullstone Gargoyle

From memory, that is the absolute bare minimum toolbox I would dare include.
Adding on the minimum noncreature essentials, you have

4 Survival of the Fittest
22-ish mana sources

That leaves you 18 cards to make a fighting deck out of in the case that you don't manage to get Survival of the Fittest to stick.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Tarmogoyf
are a good place to start. That leaves you 10 slots to manage the rest with.

Good luck

[sco0ter]

Ahh, another Welder Survival thread. Lemme save you some work, loveleaf. You will need either:
1. some dependable way to get Survival into your hand by turn 2 or 3 just about every game or
2. a reasonable path to victory that does not involve Survival of the Fittest.


Aggreed.



The classic approach for #2 involve an essentially aggro approach. It is hard to manage in the same deck with the Survival toolbox, so you have to skimp big time.

3 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Shield Sphere
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Nullstone Gargoyle

From memory, that is the absolute bare minimum toolbox I would dare include.
Adding on the minimum noncreature essentials, you have


Why 2 Shield Sphere? Most lists run only 1 and it seems enough for me too.
Why Flashback Marauder over Shriekmaw/Duplicant?
Why Sakura Tribe Elder at all? Wall of Roots is just as fine, if any at all.
Why no Birds? I find these more essential than let's say Nullstone Gargoyle.



That leaves you 18 cards to make a fighting deck out of in the case that you don't manage to get Survival of the Fittest to stick.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Tarmogoyf
are a good place to start. That leaves you 10 slots to manage the rest with.


Anyone ever tried Progenitus/Order as an alternative win condition? Seems reasonable for me.

[Finn]

The alternate win condition is to fend off control elements. That is why aggro is the natural approach. Natural Order folds to counterspells.

You should beat aggro conveniently without Birds. You need threats. Control will let you have them and watch them do nothing.

In addition to the extra Shield Sphere, you should also include at least 2 Tree of Tales. Some opponents will be able to keep you from making the Welder swap once, or even twice. You want these kinds of backups.

Marauder is for untargetables. You could include Genesis to recur it if you want. Genesis is peachy against control too.

Sakura Tribe Elder is to fetch the singleton Mountain you are going to have. If Goblins or similar decks can Wasteland you into a position of no haste, all the red mana in the world won't win the game for you.

Against control and combo, Nullstone Gargoyle is your goto guy, not the Angel. You hit them with a turn of Titan, and seal the deal with the Gargoyle.

[sco0ter]

The alternate win condition is to fend off control elements. That is why aggro is the natural approach. Natural Order folds to counterspells.


Well, they don't have counterspells en-masse. If they counter your Order, they will most likely not counter your Survival. I mean Order is a threat, too, isn't it? And from my experience with FEB, it is only crucial to resolve a Survival against Aggro turn 2. Against control it isn't that important to have it turn 2, since they have no clock.



You should beat aggro conveniently without Birds. You need threats. Control will let you have them and watch them do nothing.


Yes, but from my understanding Birds are never bad in a survival deck, due to being a creature and due to the mana intensivity of a survival deck. Oh, and the synergy with Ranger. Also you could drop lands.



Sakura Tribe Elder is to fetch the singleton Mountain you are going to have. If Goblins or similar decks can Wasteland you into a position of no haste, all the red mana in the world won't win the game for you.


I don't know if it means anything, but in all lists on deckcheck.net NO single Welder Survival runs a single mountain. So I am tempted to say, it and STE are not necessarily needed in this deck's core.
You also have Ranger to protect your Taigas.

[Finn]

Well, they don't have counterspells en-masse. If they counter your Order, they will most likely not counter your Survival. I mean Order is a threat, too, isn't it? And from my experience with FEB, it is only crucial to resolve a Survival against Aggro turn 2. Against control it isn't that important to have it turn 2, since they have no clock.So now your deck has 8 spells that the opponent must counter? And half of them costs 4. You are going to get raped by counters while the Tarmogoyfs rape your sister. If you want to beat Threshold, Dreadstill, Merfolk, or any of the other 10 decks that pack counters and quick beats, you will have to make this deck aggro.


Yes, but from my understanding Birds are never bad in a survival deck, due to being a creature and due to the mana intensivity of a survival deck. Oh, and the synergy with Ranger. Also you could drop lands.They are bad in Welder Survival. I don't ever play Rofellos either - for the same reason. Once Survival hits play, you need about :g: :g: :g: :g: :r: over the next two turns. You are going to have that just from your lands. Do the math in your head. Rofellos is a chump.


I don't know if it means anything, but in all lists on deckcheck.net NO single Welder Survival runs a single mountain. So I am tempted to say, it and STE are not necessarily needed in this deck's core.
You also have Ranger to protect your Taigas.Well, you don't HAVE to run it. As long as your opponents are all either really stupid or never using Wastelands with removal, you should be fine.

Welder Survival is a really hard deck to play, and even harder to build. There are a lot of people who think they know what they are talking about when it comes to this deck and about 3 people whom I have ever met who actually do. Georgejorge comes to mind, Me, and perhaps Complete Jank. The big problem is that the threads keep going away and every new builder has to start from scratch. So you have what you have see on Deckcheck. But those guys had to start from scratch as well. So they have not ironed out all the problems yet. Feel free to learn the hard way. You have the benefit of opponents not having a clue how to defend against the deck, so perhaps they really will all be stupid and not pick off your mountains. But as soon as they learn how to play against you, that will be the soft spot that decks which otherwise have no business beating you will clamp down on.

Good Luck

[sco0ter]

So now your deck has 8 spells that the opponent must counter? And half of them costs 4. You are going to get raped by counters while the Tarmogoyfs rape your sister. If you want to beat Threshold, Dreadstill, Merfolk, or any of the other 10 decks that pack counters and quick beats, you will have to make this deck aggro.


Obviously my understanding of this issue is too bad. Why is the aggro approach the only way to go? I mean Natural Order is a threat (if you still play enough green creatures) and the rest of the open slots (if any) could be filled up with more disruption like Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, Spell Snare (if blue splash), and so on. I can't see why this would be worse than a real aggro approach, maybe only in terms of "threats are better than answers". But this applies to Magic generally.
What do you mean by "make this deck aggro"? Include Kird Ape, Tarmogoyf, Wild Mongrel, ...?



They are bad in Welder Survival. I don't ever play Rofellos either - for the same reason. Once Survival hits play, you need about :g: :g: :g: :g: :r: over the next two turns. You are going to have that just from your lands. Do the math in your head. Rofellos is a chump.


I agree on Rofellos here. But birds still help your creature count, and usually you could replace lands for them, so you don't need to free up other slots, maybe only 1-2. So I don't see why they are bad.
They also help around Daze turn 2 and let you activate Survival on turn earlier.



Welder Survival is a really hard deck to play, and even harder to build. There are a lot of people who think they know what they are talking about when it comes to this deck and about 3 people whom I have ever met who actually do. Georgejorge comes to mind, Me, and perhaps Complete Jank. The big problem is that the threads keep going away and every new builder has to start from scratch.


Yeah, I believe it... I think currently there are about 5-6 Welder Survival threads, deep in the forums... But it's similar with other decks, too. Every few month a new "Next Level ..." or "A new take on ..." thread popups up. Then it is discussed for a few weeks maybe, and few months later a new one starts again.
Welder Survival should be discussed in Established Decks forum anyway. Maybe it wouldnt suffer from these problems then. But I think there is one already...

[Finn]

Hey, Sco0ter, we just met on MWS.

Anyway, one of the design constraints of this deck is the creature count. I don't think I would ever go below about 20. I prefer 24 or more. And Birds do help on this front, yes. But I would have you replace Birds of Paradise with some other creature (I played 19 lands and 3 Chrome Mox in my last build ~23 creatures). There are going to be instances of BOP helping out against stuff like Daze. Well, that is unless your opponent went first and Dazed the Birds in the first place. But the real problem for you is going to be aggro control decks that dominate this format. These are the ones that will have disruption aplenty with some Tarmos, Tombstalkers, Coatls, and Dreadnoughts or whatever to speedily dispatch you. The players will be only too happy to see Birds of Paradise hit the field on turn 4 when what you want is a significant body. You have to give them something to counter. As long as you are using cards that don't impact the opponent's primary strategy, they only have to counter your combo cards. And you are going to lose every single match against aggro control.

Which leads me directly to the other point you made. Yes, discard is very helpful here. I recommend playing Thoughseize and something else. I don't know which one I like best. But put some threats in too. Don't fall below the minimum threshold of creatures. You don't ever want to have an active Survival with no creatures in hand. It isn't really enough room IMO. I find this to be my biggest beef with the archetype. But anyway, this is why I recommend a puny toolbox, and some good independent threats. - like that nasty Coatl you threw at me today.

Happy building.

[sco0ter]

Which leads me directly to the other point you made. Yes, discard is very helpful here. I recommend playing Thoughseize and something else. I don't know which one I like best. But put some threats in too. Don't fall below the minimum threshold of creatures. You don't ever want to have an active Survival with no creatures in hand. It isn't really enough room IMO. I find this to be my biggest beef with the archetype. But anyway, this is why I recommend a puny toolbox, and some good independent threats. - like that nasty Coatl you threw at me today.


Well, yes, I tried Coatl as the aggro approach. Although I played FEB, the Plan B applies there, too. But somehow I felt like the deck got even worse. Even when my Coatl was 11/11... The deck tries to do 2 or more things at the same time, but does nothing right. (read the "why midrange decks are bad" article?).
A little bit of aggro isn't enough to fight aggro control. Then when it comes to the combo part I have no more disruption to protect it.
On the other hand, I believe decks like this really need a plan B.
Well, it's really hard to build...
Would you mind post your latest list?

[Finn]

3 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Shield Sphere
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Nullstone Gargoyle

1 Oblivion Ring
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Chrome Mox
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

Sorry, I can't recall an exact list. So I made guesses that seemed appropiate for the meta. This version tries to get Survival each time (Enlightened Tutor) AND have some sort of aggro (Tarmo+Nacatl) at the expense of a varied game plan. The one Oblivion Ring is an Enlightened Tutor target.

I do not think this deck is competitive. But holy hell it is fun.

[TheLion]

3 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Shield Sphere
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Nullstone Gargoyle

1 Oblivion Ring
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Chrome Mox
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath


I feel 4 Tutor are too much. They are dead cards, as soon as you have Survival. I always hated to draw excess Survival/Tutor in FEB.

The aggro part looks strange. Like if you would play Kird Ape in a Belcher deck. But probably works or helps against aggro(control).

I just test Lorescale Coatl in a GRU version. It is pretty amazing good with Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge (obviously). Though I'm still undecided if it improves any matchup.

Birds: I tested without them, and I didn't feel I miss anything important. Need further testing here.

[Finn]

@Coatl: I imagine Coatl would be pretty good in blue versions. Yeah.

@Enlightened Tutor: Seeing as how the deck is basically stuck in second gear without Survival, going to any less than the maximum number of tutors is pretty silly. If Survival of the Fittest is functioning, you don't really need the incidental cards in your hand anyway. But because it is a really cool card, I have included a single Oblivion Ring as a post-Survival target. In the past I have used a variety of other cards in that spot, but I only ever needed them against Pithing Needles, Withered Wretch, and Meddling Mage. None of these cards are in fashion these days, so even the single Oblivion Ring is not strictly necessary. Finally, the most common cards I have Tutored for after Survival is in play are Tree of Tales and Triskelion (or any of the 4 ultimate artifact creature targets). Both of these scenarios are extremely rare. They involve having the sole Plateau in play and needing a single extra mana to go off a turn in advance.

@aggro: Well, you certainly need a bonafide aggro presence. You could remove the Enlightened Tutors and probably the white as well, and then add in 4 more beaters. But if you then decide to add in blue, well you aren't going further into aggro. So it would mean 2 colors only. To my knowledge nobody has ever given this approach a proper chance.

[TheLion]

I just re-read your article over at MTGS (Past, Present and Future of Survival). Great work and good writing style!
Few questions:
Why do you think/thought blue is the wrong color for this deck? Because the aggro aspect is more important than card advantage and Intuition plan B?
Why did counterspells in this deck not work out as expected? In theory at least a few should fit in.
Just like to know, because I think U is the best splash. White is only good for Tutor really, but if you have enough alternatives, I feel you don't need Survival turn 2.

Well, this thread is about GRb, but since nobody seems to care about it, except you, I'll post a sample list in GRu, I am tinkering around with:

// 20
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Tree of Tales
3 Chrome Mox

// 20
4 Goblin Welder
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
1 Nullstone Gargoyle
1 Shield Sphere
4 Lorescale Coatl

// 20
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will

This list is completely untested. But I like the several synergies between Thirst/Brainstorm/Ponder + Coatl and Thirst/Intuition + Welder as backup for the Survival plan.
Yeah, I tried Coatl over Goyf since it gets bigger and is necessary for the blue count for FoW.

[Shinbei]

Well.. the blue version.. I don't like it since I started with it as everyone and because the lack of disruption and anything to influence your opponents play I tried other colors.

The RGSA builds started adding black because of the same reasons to stay competitive. Adding Cabal Therapy was one of the major points. And now you got Thoughtseize, Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder as well.

Problems i've got when building the RGB builds were the f**d mana curve..

Goblin Welder
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Birds of Paradise

Btw. the same with your build finn.. an early cb+top stops 14 cards.. same with an early chalice at 1.

So I tried a RGB version with more aggro potential..

//22
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Chrome Mox

//14
3 Goblin Welder (usually i played 4 but 3 are enough)
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Shield Sphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Nullstone Gargoyle
2 Eternal Witness (maybe I should cut one and add one Quirion Ranger)
1 Wickerbough Elder (replaces the Viridian Zealot)
1 Duplicant
1 Shriekmaw

//13
3 Tarmogoyf (well..)
3 Kitchen Finks (tried these because of the lifegain and work fine with therapy and buy time)
3 Troll Ascetic (tried these years ago in RGSA builds and were always fine)
4 Keldon Marauders (not sure about them.. but for a better mana curve I wanted a cc2 creature.. at least they do 2 damage.. also works fine with therapy)

//11
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Survial of the Fittest

Tested it only via MWS and sometimes it worked just fine and as all survival decks sometimes it don't..
maybe I should put add a cc1 creature for an early attack..
The only one creature that would fit here would be kird ape.

Btw.@the blue version.. how about adding one single wonder.. a flying coatl is really a bad boy..
And I would play Tarmo+Cotl and a damn Duplicant.. why do people cut him?

[TheLion]

Well.. the blue version.. I don't like it since I started with it as everyone and because the lack of disruption and anything to influence your opponents play I tried other colors.


So, still my question: Why do counterspells don't work as disruption?
Is Cabal Therapy just so outright more powerful in this deck, than Force or let's say Mana Leak, Daze or Spell Snare?



Btw.@the blue version.. how about adding one single wonder.. a flying coatl is really a bad boy..
And I would play Tarmo+Cotl and a damn Duplicant.. why do people cut him?

Yeah maybe (@Wonder).
Hm, until now, I didn't needed him (Duplicant). And I think I'd prefer Shriekmaw, because he doesn't need Welder action / Survival to be good.

[Finn]

Btw. the same with your build finn.. an early cb+top stops 14 cards.. same with an early chalice at 1.Yeah, my information is pretty much entirely before CB-Top. The format is a different beast now. I bet there are a host of new things to overcome since I did my work.

@TheLion: I think you are going to run out of spaces in your deck for the reasons you probably already know. You need ~20 blue. You need ~20 creatures. You need ~15 toolbox slots. It's a lot to ask of one deck. I think I would look to blue cards for my toolbox if possible. Maybe Sage of Epityr over Ponder. Then you can cut 2x Birds and 1x Welder perhaps for some Tarmos. You really have to play Tarmo. If for no other reason than to handle an opposing tarmo.

[LoveLeaf]

Wow, I'm surprised and pleased at the amount of discussion this deck is generating. :)

Let's see if I can tackle some of the issues at hand.

The white list looks fast and consistent. I don't like that you lose the discard spells, and I have found Top to be a efficient enough at finding what you need when you need it with all the shuffle effects. All in all, I think it is a judgment call.

My most recent list (which will get edited into the main post) :
// Lands
3 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Taiga
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales

// Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Shield Sphere
3 Goblin Welder
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Wild Mongrel
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Quirion Ranger

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Chrome Mox
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Buried Alive
2 Recurring Nightmare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 2 Platinum Angel
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

Two Wild Mongrels and a Buried Alive were added to lose your total reliance on Survival previously and with Top make a pretty robust engine. Recurring Nightmare was also added as a measure to use in case you don't have your engine going.

So far in testing it really seems to have solved a lot of the problems the original list was having. The consistency to combo out went up and so did the decks aggressive behavior.

I'm sorry I can't be more thorough right now, but I will get on later and break down what I think is essential for the deck and try to analyze what we are up against in the current metagame.

Take care, then take action,
LoveLeaf

[sco0ter]

The list looks fine, except...:

- Not having Triskelion (or Grim Poppet) looks like a severe mistake (cut a Shield Sphere)
- Why do you need 3 Qurion Ranger (while only 2 Birds)?
- 2 Platinum Angel SB, really?

keep the work going!

btw: I just read nearly every Welder Survival thread here and on mtgsalvation.com, wooohaaa.... ;-)

[Shinbei]

Today I played a GBru Survival list at a small tournament and left as 7th..
Well the bad was, that I forgot some cards and had to replace the goyfs and played Mongrels instead.

The real list would look like

//22
3x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
2x Tree of Tales
1x Mountain
2x Forest
3x Chrome Mox

//25
3x Goblin Welder
1x Mesmeric Fiend
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Anger
1x Squee
1x Shield Sphere
1x Duplicant
1x Platinium Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Triskelion
1x Genesis
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Shriekmaw
1x Eternal Witness
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Looter il-kor

//13
3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Æther Vial
4x Survival of the Fittest

//SB
3x Krosan Grip
1x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Mesmeric Fiend
4x Pithing Needle
1x Faerie Macabre
3x Tormod's Crypt

Changes:

Vial: There's a lot of blue out there and against each of it an early vial is so damn good. Bad: drawing vials lategame.. however I don't wanna miss it

Kitchen Finks: love them. They are aggro and defense and everything

Looter il-kor: mentioned in the GWRU build from complete jank. I gave it a try and I love them. They do some minor damage but they let you draw and discard each round. With Squee in grave you draw one extra card each round.

Mesmeric Fiend: only play one md but 2 sb.. 3 are so good agains combo and control. through the combination of seizes, therapys and fiends I won my matchups against combo and heavy control..

Viridian Zealot: In all the new lists people play Wickerbough Elder.. he has a strong body they say. But he is freakin damn slow. Nobody mentioned that.. whenever I really needed an artifact/enchantment killer wickerbough would be to slow.. ok nearly always.. Ok.. there's only the difference of {g} to dig for him, play him, use him. but with vial the zealot comes quicker.
Bad thing: with Wickerbough I would have a creature for every manacost up to {8} what is extremly nice with vial and survival.

I always played Birds.. then dropped them for a try and never missed them. They aren't a must imo.

Triskelion however is a musthave. This guy won so many games.

[LoveLeaf]

OK, here goes.

The list in of Decks to Beat for Legacy:

Zoo
UWx Landstill
CounterTop
Tempo Thresh
Ubxx Landstill

And the decks to watch are:

Merfolk
Goblins
AggroLoam
Survival Variants

Analyzing this list you can easily see the Blue based decks take up a lot of this compilation. Most of the decks in this format are either lightning quick (Zoo, TempoThresh) or are based on gaining control over the game with Counterspells and heavy card advantage (Landstill variants, CounterTop, Goblins, AggroLoam.)

This makes creating a viable deck for the format rather difficult. It is hard to compete with cards like Daze, Force of Will, Standstill, and Counterbalance and do it well. Most of the time the blue based decks gain control and lay threats faster than most decks can set-up what they are trying to do in order to win the game. Tempo, control over the state of the game, and a focused win condition are the main concerns of this format and we all need to keep these facts in the front of our minds at all times if we are to succeed.

Keeping those things in mind, let's move on to Welder Survival and how we can utilize the tools at hand to compete in this format. I think that in order to move forward we need to first know where our starting point is. Let's look at the bare minimum, only the essential cards we need in order to make WeldSur a viable engine.


Core of the Deck
// Creatures
1 Anger

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant

1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder

1 Shield Sphere
3 Goblin Welder


// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Chrome Mox

These 19 cards are the core of the deck. Now obviously you can play with the numbers a little bit, as there is plenty of room for adjustments at this stage such as playing all four Welders, maybe playing three Tops, or all four Moxes. These things can and probably should be done, but are not necessary for the deck to function at an at least somewhat consistent rate.

Moving forward from here is where matters of judgment come into account. Do you want to play White? Black? Blue? Black and Blue? Aether Vial? Pithing Needle? These decisions are going to be based on your metagame, how you want the deck to play out, and your personal experience with manipulating the game to your advantage with certain cards.

I'm going to try and make a general list of answers to these questions and at the end give you the list I find most suitable for the format because of this exercise.


Blue options and lists:
Blue makes this deck significantly less reliant on Survival of the Fittest, giving you options like Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge which can help you combo out without a Survival even coming into play. Bane_Of_The_Living posted this list in the previous WeldSur thread:

// Lands 21
4 City of Brass
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tree of Tales

// Creatures 18
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Sundering Titan
4 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Tarmagoyf
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Shield Sphere
1 Sylvian Safekeeper
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

// Spells 21
3 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Chrome Mox

Choices to note: Sylvan Safekeeper to keep your Welders safe, three Brainstorms for added consistancy, and Aether Vial for added resilience. Other than that he is running a very similar core to the one posted above with a few changes.

If we go way back to the beginning, the original lists of the deck looked like this:

Welder Survival
//Engines
4|Goblin Welder
4|Survival of the Fittest

//Mana
4|Birds of Paradise
1|Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1|Quirion Ranger

//Draw and Search
4|Thirst for Knowledge
2|Intuition

//Fat
1|Triskelion
1|Phyrexian Colossus
1|Sundering Titan
1|Platinum Angel

//Weld Bait
1|Pentavus
1|Shield Sphere

//The Tools
1|Duplicant
2|Eternal Witness
1|Viridian Zealot
1|Uktabi Orangutan/Keldon Vandals
1|Genesis
1|Anger
1|Squee, Goblin Nabob
1|Spore Frog
1|Goblin Sharpshooter
1|Wood Elves
1|??????

//Trees, Hills, and Rocks oh, and Jewels
5|Forest
3|Tropical Island
4|Taiga
4|Wooded Foothills
1|Windswept Heath
2|Tree of Tales
3|Chrome Mox

and

Red (8)

4 Goblin Welder
2 Anger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Green (15)

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
2 Eternal Witness

Blue (6)

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition

Artifact (11)

4 Pentad Prism
2 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Pentavus
1 Shield Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds

Lands (20)

3 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Tree of Tales
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest

These were posted by CavernNinja four years ago, and we are obviously in a very different format these days, but the card choices made then are still somewhat applicable and studying all of our options can never hurt.


White choices and lists
White offers Enlightened Tutor with an array of more aggressive options, as well as Swords to Plowshares.

This list was posted by Finn a few post back but will be re-posted here for purposes of an all inclusive post and thoroughness.

3 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Shield Sphere
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Nullstone Gargoyle

1 Oblivion Ring
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Chrome Mox
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

This list tries to play an aggressive role should you not be able to combo out. This option is, in my opinion, extremely valid and should be looked into more intensely by anyone who is serious about this deck. All in all white offers a vastly different way to play this deck, and is an option that should not be taken lightly.

White also offers Ethersworn Canonist whom I think is an underrated card in the current format.

Black options and lists
Black offers discard spells, Buried Alive, Recuring Nightmare, and a plethora of removal.

This list was posted by georgjorge:

8 Fetches
4 Taiga
4 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Bayou
1 Forest

4 Welder
4 Survival
3 Buried Alive

1 Titan
1 Poppet
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Shield Sphere
1 Genesis
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Magus of the Moon

3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Top

4 Goyf
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Quirion Ranger

Choices to note: Magus of the Moon to smash up on manabases, Wall of Blossoms for cycling and defense, and Grim Poppet in the Triskelion slot.

Black gives the deck a very large amount of discard which ups the resiliency of the deck by a fair margin and when fighting mainly blue decks is probably the best option for the current format.

My most current list
// Lands
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Tree of Tales

// Creatures
1 Anger
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shield Sphere
4 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Great Sable Stag
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Chrome Mox
4 Thoughtseize
3 Buried Alive
2 Recurring Nightmare
2 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top

I hope you guys enjoyed the ride as much as I have. As you can see there are many different options for this deck, and as I said earlier your choices depend on your own experience and how you feel the deck should play out.

Take care,
LoveLeaf

[sco0ter]

You did a nice job on compiling the 3 versions (splashes) and give a good overview. But why not post it in the Established Decks Forum's Welder Survival thread then?



Core of the Deck
// Creatures
1 Anger

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant

1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder

1 Shield Sphere
3 Goblin Welder


// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Chrome Mox

These 19 cards are the core of the deck.


Sorry, I do not agree. Inkwell Leviathan belongs by no means to the core of the deck. He is just win more. Duplicant is rather a meta or personal choice, too.
The most important creature missing is: Squee. And probably Quirion Ranger.
3 Moxen aren't a must neither.
Wickerbough Elder is replacable by too many other creatures (again meta and personal choice)... Viridian Shaman / Zealot, Vithian Renegades, Tin-Street Hooligan, ...



My most current list
// Creatures
1 Anger
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shield Sphere
4 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Great Sable Stag
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant


2 Great Sable Stag, really? Seriously: add Squee.

How have the Nightmares working so far?

[LoveLeaf]

In the current metagame, not running Inkwell is like not running Titan. He's just too good to not include with all the blue running running around. Duplicant eats Goyfs all day long....and Wickerbough is you best option to fight Counterbalance. All of these facts make the Core of the current meta, and hence forth wouldn't suggest running WeldSur without those 19 cards as your starting point. But then again, it is still only a suggestion.

Squee and Ranger are by definition the real win more cards you included in your post. I have missed Squee though, so he will probably go back in, but there was no harm in testing it without him.

Sable has been amazing and might become a staple for Survival decks in the current meta.

Recurring Nightmare has done what it's supposed to, got around Counterbalance a few times, and helped me combo out without a Welder or a Survival.