Pact lunch

[hwtcharger07]

this deck holds the possability of a turn one win though you need to be stupid lucky to get it.

Pact Lunch

Land:
4x ancient tomb
4x flooded strand
4x polluted delta
2x tundra
1x scrubland
1x underground sea
4x ancient spring

Creatures:
4x academy rector

Spells:
4x Show and tell
4x pact of negation
4x slaughter pact
4x brainstorm
4x mystical tutor
4x cabal therapy
4x dark ritual
4x lotus petal
Enchantments:

4x Hive Mind

the deck revolves around getting hive mind into play quick via show ant tell or by academy rector. you then play one of the pact cards to force your opponent to pay (which they hopefully can't) at the beginning of their upkeep or lose the game. it seems pretty straight foward combo to me though i think its possible to include Ad nauseum i am unsure of how i would have to change the maindeck, though this still may be a better way to move foward. i could see possibly

nausea pact lunch

Land:

4x ancient tomb
4x flooded strand
4x polluted delta
2x underground sea
4x ancient spring

Spells:

1x Hive mind cc6
2x ad nauseum cc5
4x dark ritual cc1
4x lotus petal cc0
4x chrome mox cc0
4x mystical tutor cc1
4x pact of negation cc0
4x slaughter pact cc0
1x show and tell

and so on

if this is the best way to go i guess i may as well be better of play ANT which while less original, it is still very strong. the first list is what im goldfishing atm..

any help with this idea would be very much appreciated.

[rockout]

I'll give you this much: this is by far the most innovative idea I've seen in a number of months.

[emidln]

I'll give you this much: this is by far the most innovative idea I've seen in a number of months.

This has been talked about to death on mtgsalvation already.

[Elfrago]

Pact of Negation really doen't work that well with the combo. Once you land Hive Mind, you have to cast it targeting something and, unless your opponent is a dumb fuck, he won't play anything after hive mind and just hope to beat you down with whatever he already has on board.
Still, it's rather useful to protect hive mind so it may still be worth the spot.

Alternatively, you could just play Summoner Pact combined with ESG as a very very crappy ritual that also turns into "ops, I win" after hive mind gets down.

In the Nausea list you posted I don't get the singleton hive mind without any way to tutor for it. Ad Nauseam will let you draw large chunks of your library but not the whole library, so you're going to fizzle too often.

[MTG-Fan]

Pact of Negation really doen't work that well with the combo. Once you land Hive Mind, you have to cast it targeting something and, unless your opponent is a dumb fuck, he won't play anything after hive mind and just hope to beat you down with whatever he already has on board.
Still, it's rather useful to protect hive mind so it may still be worth the spot.


You can Pact one of your own spells though, can't you?

[Elfrago]

You can Pact one of your own spells though, can't you?

Yes we can!

But after dropping a 6cc card I assume that our own hand is pretty depleted. And this leads to passing the turn wich is:
- Bad against aggro decks of any sort.
- Even worse against decks packing grip.

Of course this won't always happen but I'm not a fan of, mmm, "free losses" :tongue: .

[Barook]

I tinkered around with the idea, too. Here's some input:

Additional win conditions outside of the combo aren't bad. Tombstalker is awesome here with all the accel, cantrips and other stuff around. You could even Show & Tell it, if necessary. Depending on the deck you're playing against, a single copy of Form of the Dragon can be a winner, too.

[Skeggi]

You only use Pact of Negaction and Slaughter Pact. Their obvious weakness is that they need a legal target. Why don't you use Pact of the Titan or Summoner's Pact? They're pretty worthless because the can't actually do anything relevant, but they can always be cast and can't be countered upon resolution because you have no legal target.

[Cire]

I thought if you have a hive mind in play you can do this:

Play Pact of Negation not targeting anything
It gets copyed from you playing it
Your opponents copy targets your pact
Your pact is countered, your opponents pacts resolves
He has to pay 3UU or lose

[Skeggi]

You cannot cast Pact of Negation without a legal target. There has to be a counterable spell on the stack if you want to cast it.

[Tacosnape]

I agree that Summoner's Pact into ESG should be in here. Both of your pacts rely on there being a target to win. Summoner's Pact is the only thing you can unconditionally cast to get the kill with Hive Mind.

Also, if you're going to run Show and Tell, you need a way to get Hive Mind in your hand.

[sauce]

seems like a illusions of grandeur/donate type deck.
you should play chrome mox and maybe a few isochron scepters :)

[Skeggi]

I agree that Summoner's Pact into ESG should be in here.
Keep in mind you don't even have to find something because it's a specific search. Therefor it doesn't matter if your opponent doesn't run green creatures, and therefor you can chose not to run ESG because of Ad Nauseum.

[rufus]

Have you considered playing the combo with a replenish engine?

[Anusien]

Is using Show and Tell to play Hive Mind and then cast Slaughter Pact better or worse than just putting a 10/10 into play and winning? I imagine it's worse.

[rockout]

This has been talked about to death on mtgsalvation already.

mtgsalvation can suck my dick. There legacy forum is god awful.

Warning issued for inflammatory post.
-TOOL

[rufus]

Is using Show and Tell to play Hive Mind and then cast Slaughter Pact better or worse than just putting a 10/10 into play and winning? I imagine it's worse.

Hive mind is almost always going to be worse. More cards required, and the opponent could pay the upkeep cost to turn it into a nobo.

I find myself wondering if there's a replenish-based approach that has potential, but it's likely to be inferior to ichorid or golden grahams.

[Elfrago]

Keep in mind you don't even have to find something because it's a specific search. Therefor it doesn't matter if your opponent doesn't run green creatures, and therefor you can chose not to run ESG because of Ad Nauseum.

Might as well run a single ESG for those times when:
- You have 2x S Pact but you only need one to win.
- You have targets for all the other Pacts and you really don't need summoner pact atm.

[hwtcharger07]

Pact Lunch

Land: 15
4x ancient tomb
3x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
1x tundra
1x scrubland
1x underground sea
4x ancient spring

Creatures: 8
4x academy rector
4x elvish spirit guide

Spells:32
4x Show and tell
4x pact of negation
4x slaughter pact
4x summoners's pact
4x chrome mox
4x cabal therapy
4x dark ritual
4x lotus petal

Enchantments: 4

4x Hive Mind

changes made after goldfishing a 10-15 games, brainstorm sucks even with the sac lands, every time i see it i wish it was something else. Also 20 lands is too much i feel mana flooded between 20 lands and lotus petal plus ritual.
mystical tutor also blows it cant find anything we dont allready have, if you dont have a pact, your an idiot for not mulling or drawing into one and if you dont have a way to play hive mind mystical doesnt help you get there anysooner, its a dead card.

I dont really see it getting much better than it is ATM though hopefully im wrong, I'll gold fish some hands and see how these changes have affected the deck overall, comments are alway welcome.

Also to the guy who mentioned mtgsalvation the page on this deck and combo has only 7 posts most of which contain little useful information.

after some goldfishing this doesn't seem to terrible out of seven goldfishes one turn 2 kill, three turn three, and three turn four, all wins were preceded by at least one cabal therapy, usualy with flashback, one turn four win involved hard casting hive mind win no accel other than normal lands, i hope someone else picks up this deck and pitches some ideas in.

also i am much happier without brainstorms and the mystic tutors they seemed kind of thrown in anyway.

ESG plus summoner's pact is ok, while not phenominal i can't think of anything to replace it with, pluss 4 more pacts for kill con allways helps.

[ScatmanX]

I like the Ad Nauseam version of the opening post better.
After casting an Ad Nauseam, and assuming you have only lands in your hand, you have a total cc of cards left in your deck of 23, so I guess it will be preatty dificult to fizzle.
I´d just add 1 or 2 Pact of the Titan, to ensure win.
Still think that the deck can lose to a single Duress or Force...

[Mystical_Jackass]

Pfft... Ad Nauseum is AIDS >.>


I think this idea is pretty dope :P I like what you got so far, but I might suggest something like this possibly?

4 FoW
4 Attunement/Careful Study?
3-4 Replenish?


The reason is.. you can't do this Turn 1-2 win shi* like ANT, its just not gonna happen, you dont have mox diamond or tutors. And you need to protect yourself against countertop & Chalice trickery. I think we should also look at the big picture to make this deck good & well balanced, and not just fast.

[Darkenslight]

You're running White with no E. Tutor...why, precisely? Your wincon is a 2-card combo, one of which is a freaking enchantment!

Tutorbox, perhaps?

[whidye]

I think I would also like to call this deck "WishMind".


4 x Hive Mind
4 x Show and Tell
4 x Cunning Wish

Hive Mind will be brought out (most likely) with Show and Tell. There are two ways you can play this deck - either, wish first and get the color you need to kill your opponent, or wish after hive mind is in play. If Hive is in play, then the opponent will search for a spell as well, and they may not counter your wish which might happen if you wish before hive mind is in play. The advantage is that if you wish first and hive mind the next turn, you will kill them at the beginning of their upkeep. If you wish second, they might find something to get rid of hive mind before you can successfully kill them; but once you wish/mind them, they will be killed at their upkeep. Wish first is 'probably' the better way to go.

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder

These are standard draw/search cards that will help you find your wish/show and tell.

Protection/Disruption
4 x Force of Will
4 x Spell Snare
2 x Back to Basics
4 x Daze

A suit of counterspells to keep the opponent subdued during the early game. Back to Basics may be sided for something else, but since you are running mono-U (all basics/search) it could come in very handy once you've taken the game a few turns. Remember, once mind is in play counterspells are "useless" since the opponent gets to copy them, and can counter your counterspells with the copies. This is why cards like Spell snare (which can't be re-targeted to itself) are so important.

Alt Win.
4 x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 x Stifle

Some fancy dandy alt.win combo that is better than your main combo if you can play it off T2. Always run these guys because your opponent will hate you, and this combo will win you games regardless of if you get your other combo off.

Mana-base
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Polluted Delta
10 x Island

8 search, and 10 basics = great for brainstorm, great for thinning, great against wasteland/moon.




So the total list looks like:

4 x Hive Mind
4 x Show and Tell
4 x Cunning Wish
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
4 x Force of Will
4 x Spell Snare
2 x Back to Basics
4 x Daze
4 x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 x Stifle
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Polluted Delta
10 x Island


EDIT: I should say that your sideboard contains each wish - if you really can't figure out what colors they are playing by the time you get your combo out; well, you are screwed anyways.

[Mystical_Jackass]

so, what does that have to do with Pact again? It's a good idea, so are you wishing in a Pact, then using show and tell to drop.. sry this seems even more if'y than before.

[whidye]

Best way to play it is to wish in a pact that they do not have the colors to play. You play it with hive mind out. They copy it. They lose in their upkeep.

[Mystical_Jackass]

well, actually, now that I think of it I do sorta like the idea you have because it offers a lot more versatility with Wish. It doesn't have like 8-12 pacts, just a total waste of deck space.

Also, stifle/naught is a nice touch.. stifle's pretty good on its own and naught is just a badass. So possibly turn 2-3 wins? 4-5? Will it outrace reanimator, gobs, etc?

[whidye]

If you are in an aggro-heavy meta, I would suggest different alternatives. I do not suggest running countertop here due to the CMC of our cards - but it might be worth testing.

Of course, our sideboard is reduced to ten cards (as per the 5 pacts); so much more work will have to go into tuning the sideboard (some GY hate, propaganda?, etc...). I don't see turn 2-3 wins happening since it isn't possible with this deck (no mana accel); but I could see turn 4 very easily using either of the win-cons.

Ideal:
T1: Land - b-storm EoT
T2: Land - Stiflenought
T3: Land - Cunning Wish; swing for 12.
T4: Show and Tell the Hive mind into play. Use your pact. Swing for 12.

There, you just killed the opponent twice (if they survive the stiflenought, they still die in their upkeep due to the pact being cast). Not like this is going to happen much; but one or the other will - and with your countersuite lined up you will be swinging for the fences before you know it.

NOTE: I have only done some minor testing with this deck (against aggro, TPS, thresh).

[GGoober]

This is hilarious, but would Final Fortune be competitively played in this deck?

I'm assuming that the opponent's copy resolves first, therefore does he get the turn before you? If he does, then he loses, or does he get 2 turns?

[T-ORGANIZER]

You only use Pact of Negaction and Slaughter Pact. Their obvious weakness is that they need a legal target. Why don't you use Pact of the Titan or Summoner's Pact? They're pretty worthless because the can't actually do anything relevant, but they can always be cast and can't be countered upon resolution because you have no legal target.

summoner's pact for ESG

[Elfrago]

I really don't get why you guys are using cunning wish. You're turning a 1 card combo ( with all the pact redundancy this is almost like a 1 card combo) into a 2 card combo AND you're rising the total mana required.

whydie, I don't like your list. You're trying to create a Control deck with a combo finish. That's fine, but there are far better combos for that approach, for example Painter & Grindstone or Counterbalance & Top.

[hwtcharger07]

I dont like running enlightened tutor or mystical tutor in this deck, i think put shortly that it is waste of space. it also makes you wait a turn to be able to do something and effectively gives you negative CA to ensure you draw what you need, to me this does not seem a fair trade.

I think i am going to try and construct the ad nausem build of this deck to see how fast i can go off. if i do that then i will run the mystical tutors to try and pull off a turn 2 kill, as turn 1 win would require having an ad nauseum in the opening hand. hell you could make this a straight tendrils based kill deck and ditch hive mind all together and play lots of pacts off of the ad nauseum as they have a cc of 0 then play a game winning tendrils?

I am still unsure what the best direction for this deck is now, it seems with the non ad nauseum build your stuck praying if you dont draw a hive mind though this doesn't happen all that often. right now i am more comfortable suggesting a burning wish build even as that offers some other tools that we might be able to make good use of such as massacre and tendrills.

[whidye]

I really don't get why you guys are using countertop. You're turning a 1 card combo ( with all the pact redundancy this is almost like a 1 card combo) into a 2 card combo AND you're rising the total mana required.

whydie, I don't like your list. You're trying to create a Control deck with a combo finish. That's fine, but there are far better combos for that approach, for example Painter & Grindstone or Counterbalance & Top.


That's fine. The way I see it, if you are approaching a Hive Mind list and planning on winning with pacts, it should be done with wishes, rather than ad neasuem; that's all I am trying to demonstrate here. I also think it is hard to get your combo down (krosan grip destroys this list); which is why I have the alt.win combo (hey guess what? Krosan grip destroys that combo as well!). The advantage of my list is that with both combos running they will hopefully run out of grips and allow one of them to work. Painter lists have problems as well (er.. Krosan GRIP? Could it be any more effective against combo?) as well as recursion cards like a Survival of the Fittest deck running Progenitus (better like drawing games or holding stifles) and CbT loses to... Krosan Grip!! Wowee!!

I agree that countertop should NOT be run with this list - it is simply too "out-of-the-way" for it to work effectively.

EDIT: I should also mention Zoo running Qasali Pridemage.

[Elfrago]

Dammit, I meant cunning wish and not countertop. Fixed that.

Regarding Grip, when you play hive mind, without passing priority, you play one of the pacts. This way, even if they Grip mind in response, the copy trigger is already on the stack, and they will still lose. IMHO this is enough insurance against Grip .

[whidye]

Er...
Is it not like this:

-You play hive mind. You must let it resolve if you want it to trigger copies.
-They grip in response. Split second - you can't put anything on the stack; but you do get to copy grip as it triggers hive mind (split second has nothing to do with triggered effects).
-Grip resolves; your win-con is failure, and they kill you next turn.

[JeroenC]

Elfrago is right, this is how it goes (assuming no countermagic from your opponent):
-Play (cast) Hive Mind, pass priority
-other person passes priority, so top of stack resolves (Hive Mind)
-Hive Mind in play(on the battlefield), active player (you) gets priority
-Play (cast) Pact, ability of Hive Mind is triggered, pass priority
-Opponent has no Stifle, but casts Krosan Grip on Hive Mind, triggering Hive Mind again. Both players pass priority and top of stack resolves.
[from here on out I'm supposing there are no other permanents in play, no more mana in the pools and no more cards in the hand, just to make things simpler]
-Krosan Grip Copy resolves and destroys Hive Mind (the only target you could choose).
-Both players pass priority so other Grip resolves but is countered upon resolution (no legal targets).
-Both players pass priority, so opponent's Pact resolves.
-Both players pass priority, your Pact resolves.
-Both players pass priority until the turn ends.
-Opponent untaps nothing, goes into upkeep, loses to Pact upkeep cost.