Deathtouch and trample, M10

[brattin]

I played in a prerelease yesterday and got a ruling I didn't like. Just wanted to check it with y'all.

I've got a new-and-improved lord of the pit with the equipment which gives it +1+1 and deathtouch (too lazy to look up card names). Hence, 8/8 flying trample deathtouch. My opponent is at 6. He double-blocks. I think, since deathtouch allows me to deal damage however I want, I should be able to deal one to each of his creatures (i.e., lethal to each of his creatures) and the rest to him, killing him. The judge says no, lethal damage is still defined as the creature's toughness minus any damage on it. I go on to lose the match, and we amicably tie round one, and I have a good time in the rest of the tourney.

I wouldn't be surprised too much if this is how it works now (but I'd like verification), but I think it isn't how it should work from a flavor perspective (since they allow deathtouch creatures to deal damage however they want, because deathtouch damage is lethal).

What do you say?

[RoddyVR]

I played in a prerelease yesterday and got a ruling I didn't like. Just wanted to check it with y'all.

I've got a new-and-improved lord of the pit with the equipment which gives it +1+1 and deathtouch (too lazy to look up card names). Hence, 8/8 flying trample deathtouch. My opponent is at 6. He double-blocks. I think, since deathtouch allows me to deal damage however I want, I should be able to deal one to each of his creatures (i.e., lethal to each of his creatures) and the rest to him, killing him. The judge says no, lethal damage is still defined as the creature's toughness minus any damage on it. I go on to lose the match, and we amicably tie round one, and I have a good time in the rest of the tourney.

I wouldn't be surprised too much if this is how it works now (but I'd like verification), but I think it isn't how it should work from a flavor perspective (since they allow deathtouch creatures to deal damage however they want, because deathtouch damage is lethal).

What do you say?

The highlighted part is "right, but wrong". That isnt why deathtouch can deal damage however it wants. Deathtouch can deal damage how it wants, but in order for trample to deal damage to a player, it still has to deal (the regular definition of) lethal damage to all creatures blocking it. Having the deathtouch ability does not alter how Trample works.

[Nightmare]

This is a correct ruling.

For a "Rule of Thumb" description, remember that under the new rules, trample Trumps deathtouch. When a creature has deathtouch, but no trample, you consider 1 damage to be lethal damage. If it has trample, then you still need to do (toughness - damage on it) to each creature before you can deal damage to a player. Sorry if that lost you the match, but it is the correct ruling.

[brattin]

Sorry if that was unclear--my understanding was that whatever people who make Magic rules are using the phrase "lethal damage" loosely. Like, I think they said something like "the reason it makes sense for creatures with deathtouch to have a special exception made for them, such that they can deal damage however they want, is that any damage will be lethal" even though they didn't really mean "lethal damage" in the strict sense. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it doesn't work the way I want it to, but I think it SHOULD work the way I want it to, from a flavor perspective.

Perhaps a slightly simpler, yet more whiny and obnoxious way to write the same thing is, "why CAN creatures with deathtouch deal damage however they want?"

EDIT: thanks for the confirmation on the ruling.

[cdr]

702.2. Deathtouch

702.2a. Deathtouch is a static ability.

702.2b. A player assigning combat damage from a creature with deathtouch can divide that damage as he or she chooses among any number of creatures blocking or blocked by it. This is an exception to the procedures described in rules 510.1c-d.

702.2c. A creature that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is destroyed as a state-based action. See rule 704.

702.2d. Multiple instances of deathtouch on the same object are redundant.


702.17. Trample

702.17a. Trample is a static ability that modifies the rules for assigning an attacking creature's combat damage. The ability has no effect when a creature with trample is blocking or is dealing noncombat damage. (See rule 510, "Combat Damage Step.")

702.17b. The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. The attacking creature's controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can't assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking.

Example: A 2/2 creature with an ability that enables it to block multiple attackers blocks two attackers: a 1/1 with no abilities a 3/3 with trample. The active player could assign 1 damage from the first attacker and 1 damage from the second to the blocking creature, and 2 damage to the defending player from the creature with trample.

Example: A 6/6 green creature with trample is blocked by a 2/2 creature with protection from green. The attacking creature's controller must assign at least 2 damage to the blocker, even though that damage will be prevented by the blocker's protection ability. The attacking creature's controller can divide the rest of the damage as he or she chooses between the blocking creature and the defending player.

702.17c. If an attacking creature with trample is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to the player or planeswalker it's attacking.

702.17d. If a creature with trample is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be assigned to the defending player, even if that planeswalker has been removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign to that planeswalker exceeds its loyalty.

702.17e. Multiple instances of trample on the same creature are redundant.


510. Combat Damage Step

510.1. First, the active player announces how each attacking creature assigns its combat damage, then the defending player announces how each blocking creature assigns its combat damage. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. A player assigns a creature's combat damage according to the following rules:

510.1a. Each attacking creature and each blocking creature assigns combat damage equal to its power. Creatures that would assign 0 or less damage this way don't assign combat damage at all.

510.1b. An unblocked creature assigns its combat damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking. If it isn't currently attacking anything (if, for example, it was attacking a planeswalker that has left the battlefield), it assigns no combat damage.

510.1c. A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.

Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Craw Wurm (a 6/4 creature) is Wall of Wood (a 0/3 creature) then Eager Cadet (a 1/1 creature). Craw Wurm can assign 3 damage to the Wall and 3 damage to the Cadet, 4 damage to the Wall and 2 damage to the Cadet, 5 damage to the Wall and 1 damage to the Cadet, or 6 damage to the Wall.

Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Craw Wurm (a 6/4 creature) is Wall of Wood (a 0/3 creature) then Eager Cadet (a 1/1 creature). During the declare blockers step, the defending player casts Giant Growth targeting Wall of Wood, which gives it +3/+3 until end of turn. Craw Wurm must assign its 6 damage to the Wall.

Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Craw Wurm (a 6/4 creature) is Wall of Wood (a 0/3 creature) then Eager Cadet (a 1/1 creature). During the declare blockers step, the defending player casts Mending Hands targeting Wall of Wood, which prevents the next 4 damage that would be dealt to it. Craw Wurm can assign 3 damage to the Wall and 3 damage to the Cadet, 4 damage to the Wall and 2 damage to the Cadet, 5 damage to the Wall and 1 damage to the Cadet, or 6 damage to the Wall.

Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Enormous Baloth (a 7/7 creature) is Trained Armodon (a 3/3 creature) that's already been dealt 2 damage this turn, then Foriysian Brigade (a 2/4 creature that can block an additional creature), then Silverback Ape (a 5/5 creature). The damage assignment order of an attacking Durkwood Boars (a 4/4 creature) is the same Foriysian Brigade, then Goblin Piker (a 2/1 creature). Among other possibilities, the active player may have the Wurm assign 1 damage to the Armodon, 1 damage to the Brigade, and 5 damage to the Ape, and have the Boars assign 3 damage to the Brigade and 1 damage to the Piker.

510.1d. A blocking creature assigns combat damage to the creatures it's blocking. If it isn't currently blocking any creatures (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If it's blocking exactly one creature, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If it's blocking two or more creatures, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocking creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that it's blocking unless each creature that precedes that blocked creature is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.

510.1e. Each creature's damage must be assigned fully before another creature's damage may be assigned.

[Ecoris]

Rule of thumb: Deathtouch + trample works just as it did pre-M10 wrt. combat damage distribution.

Lethal damage is defined precisely in the rules.

[Anusien]

This is a correct ruling.

For a "Rule of Thumb" description, remember that under the new rules, trample Trumps deathtouch. When a creature has deathtouch, but no trample, you consider 1 damage to be lethal damage. If it has trample, then you still need to do (toughness - damage on it) to each creature before you can deal damage to a player. Sorry if that lost you the match, but it is the correct ruling.
I would not explain it that way, since it only leads to this sort of confusion. If you're not talking about the specific phrase "lethal damage", don't use the term.