Legacy's allure- The strange decline in Slivers

[beastman]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17748_Legacys_Allure_The_Curious_Decline_Of_Slivers.html

I don't get how he thinks goblins is the workhorse of legacy. Merfolk is putting up about 5 times more top 8's, and even elves seems to be doing better.

What do you think about this article Pinder?

[hi-val]

Workhorse as in "still T8s and isn't totally awf but there are probably better options". Or maybe it was an oblique reference to this (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGEXO/workhorse.jpg) : )

[beastman]

Its not a workhorse though, it is performing quite badly. Merfolk is a much better deck right now.

[Pinder]

Aside from the fact that Merfolk is one color while Slivers is typically between three and four, I think the main reason is the fact that the lords that are available to them pull double duty. Lord of Atlantis grants Islandwalk, so you have your pump and your evasion in a single creature. Reejerey can also tap down blockers or untap your lands for a Warchief-like effect, too. If there was a sliver that granted +1/+1 and flying, then we'd be talking.

But that's really just gravy. You want to know the real reason Slivers can never, ever reach critical mass?

The sliver mirror is a fucking nightmare. With Islandwalk, their Merfolk can't block yours, and Reejerey only pumps your Merfolk. With the sliver mirror, pushing damage through is like pulling teeth with a wooden spoon, especially if either of you have Plated Slivers on the table. It basically goes like this: each player plays a bunch of slivers and possibly gets through some early damage, then the game stalls and both players sit there until a) a single sliver can get through for lethal damage, or b) somebody decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think theory #3 in that article is the most relevant, followed by theory #2.

Slivers rolls over and dies to board control, something that neither Merfolk nor Goblins have quite as many problems with. The reason is that both of the latter decks have explosive draw engines to refuel after a sweeper, whereas most Slivers lists only have Brainstorm (card parity) and maybe Ponder (card parity). The presence of draw engines in Merfolk and Goblins also makes it easier to have early board presence, since the superior dig means you'll be seeing more creatures than a Sliver deck normally would over a comparable time span.

Theory #2 is more based on the presence of Counterbalance than anything else. It's virtually impossible to have CB in a Sliver deck and reach a critical mass of guys and run other spells. Conversely, in the absence of Vial, Slivers gets raped by Counterbalance. There's also the fact that any random Sliver has the same cmc as Goyf but is infinitely worse on its own. You'll often need at least two Muscle/Sinew Slivers and a Crystalline or Plated Sliver to be able to rumble with Tarmogoyf (unless your dudes fly, in which case you don't care). That's a lot of cards required just to be able to go toe-to-toe with one of your opponent's creatures, and that creature won't even die from it unless you have more Slivers in play!

Slivers probably isn't viable anymore because both Goyf and CounterTop completely outclass the deck, and exist in the same colors. If you approach it from the tribal angle, Slivers is worse than the two currently dominant tribal decks because both of those can refuel quickly and don't really need a ton of guys in play to operate (especially in the case of Merfolk - one Lord of Atlantis and one other random 2/x guy can get there against blue decks, if somewhat slowly).

EDIT: If you cut green, then Mirror Entity is a reasonable substitute for Muscle Sliver, and it diversifies your curve. Being able to randomly Fireball your opponent with your untargetable guys is good, or so I hear.

[Skeggi]

Wizards have set their minds on a tribal for each color; Merfolk, Zombies, Goblins, Elves and Soldiers. Slivers fall out of this category and therefor get little to no extra 'species'. As the power creep boosts Elves and Merfolk and non-tribal decks, Slivers is one that would fall behind sooner or later.

As Pinder said; Slivers also needs a new lord that does some good stuff if it ever wants to recur in the format. But for now, all the points adressed in the article are good points; not only pointing out why it isn't played, but also pointing out that it is in fact a tier 2 deck. I wouldn't go as far as calling it a bad deck, but it certainly isn't a good deck as the article states a couple of times.

[jazzykat]

I think its simple. Merfolk have a rock solid manabase with wasteland and mutavault. This makes standstill stupid especially with vial.

If you play blue against them, they have 2 must counters (Lord of Atlantis, and Aether Vial) and a whole bunch more you don't want to see hit, whereas Slivers can be handled up to a point with 1 tarmogoyf on the field. Additionally merfolk have a CMC from 1-3, slivers sits firmly on 2 but for harmonic and plated (which I don't think are in all lists) so 1 EE can gg a sliver army.

[Elfrago]

As it often happens, there isn't a single reason, but a concomitance of more than one determined the decline of the deck.

First, the deck has a Crappier mana-base than other tribal decks, being forced to run at least three colors. This involves a weakness to denial strategies and, more important, denies the ability to run Wasteland and other colorless lands themselves. And the use of colorless lands played a major role in the rise of Goblins first and Merfolks later.

Second, the deck has a horrible mana curve, packed at 2cc. With Counterbalance, Chalice, Deed, Eplosives and even Spell Snare running wild in the meta that's bad, very bad.

Also the only real turn 1 play of the deck is Vial. Hitting vial on turn 1 is just sooo important, missing that is sooooo bad.

Third, power creep. Slivers had a fine power to mana cost ratio. Now as Aggro Zombies said, Slivers cost the same than Goyf but they infinitely worse.

[Nekrataal]

As it often happens, there isn't a single reason, but a concomitance of more than one determined the decline of the deck.

First, the deck has a Crappier mana-base than other tribal decks, being forced to run at least three colors. This involves a weakness to denial strategies and, more important, denies the ability to run Wasteland and other colorless lands themselves. And the use of colorless lands played a major role in the rise of Goblins first and Merfolks later.

Second, the deck has a horrible mana curve, packed at 2cc. With Counterbalance, Chalice, Deed, Eplosives and even Spell Snare running wild in the meta that's bad, very bad.

Also the only real turn 1 play of the deck is Vial. Hitting vial on turn 1 is just sooo important, missing that is sooooo bad.

Third, power creep. Slivers had a fine power to mana cost ratio. Now as Aggro Zombies said, Slivers cost the same than Goyf but they infinitely worse.

EXACTLY :D but if you formulate it the otherway round it is much shorter. The only relevant advantage that Slivers have and where they are better at compared to Folks (both decks have similarities) is Shroud. In every other aspect Merfolks is better as already mentioned (manabase, denial package, carddraw, board manipulation, curve). So instead of printing yet another Lord they should have printed Crystalline Sea Lord 2/2, 1uu, All Merfolks have shroud.

[Finn]

So instead of printing yet another Lord they should have printed Crystalline Sea Lord 2/2, 1uu, All Merfolks have shroud.Most Merfolk players would love this card a shitload. But Merfolk is so tight that it would almost certainly be missing in a lot of lists. Or perhaps just a 2-of.

Pinder, I thought that Slivers had a really good Goblins matchup. Has something changed that? (I am thinking Warren Weirding) Cuz ya know, Merfolk is awful against Goblins, and that is not likely to change anytme soon (though that lord would go a long way to achieving that :).

[beastman]

I dont think goyf has as much to do with it. Merfolk has all their cantrips on top of standstill, along with a much more stable manabase. And goblins has a more stable manabase, wastes and ports which it incorporates flawlessly (i.e. much better than merpeople IMO), and it has matron to go along with ringleader.
If slivers had a creature that could tutor like matron, getting winged sliver would end things alot faster. At the same time, if they had a ringleader, or the mana stability to be able to screw with their opponents lands, I believe this would be a tier 1.5 deck at least, though still not tier 1.
Has anyone tested standstill in the deck?

[sunshine]

Cursecatcher + Wasteland + Stifle. Merfolk and Goblins both have a strong mana denial element that allows them to prey on the format which is something we can't say for the Slivers. IMO this is the greatest shortcoming of Slivers when compared to the more successful tribes as of late (Elves excluded, but they get Survival and Progenitus).

[FoolofaTook]

I'd like to hear Roddy's take on this one. He's done more with Slivers than anybody else in the northeast meta and his deck and the finishes have gotten stronger and stronger over the last couple of years, even with Goyf running loose.

[RoddyVR]

I'd like to hear Roddy's take on this one. He's done more with Slivers than anybody else in the northeast meta and his deck and the finishes have gotten stronger and stronger over the last couple of years, even with Goyf running loose.

Wow. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Unfortunately, because my tournament experience is ONLY with slivers, i can't realy compare the deck to others. I've never piloted a goblins or a merfolk deck, and my experience against them doesnt amount to much when compared to someone who runs the deck themselves.
Having switched to meathooks (from survival slivers) a few months back, i'd say that most of the things mentioned here sound prety much right on. Lack of a real draw engine is definetly the thing i miss most from my survival days, so much so that i'm seriously considering trying standstill in my MeatHooks deck (have the 4x vials and 4x Mutavaults anyway), even though i remember reading and believing someone in the Meathooks thread saying that it was subpar.
I've never had the urge for a mana denial strategy cause i know i cant use wasteland, so even when i had stifles maindeck, it was just a neat trick every once in a while to stifle a fetch, it wasnt a strategy. But having been screwed by that strategy enough times both by goblins and merfolk, i can attest to its strength.
As much as it pains me to say, I have to agree that MeatHooks (while being the better of the sliverdeck variants i've tried) isnt realy a "good" deck now. There realy is too many popular strategies that hit it prety hard. Mana denial, goyf, countertop, and the recent resurgence of the sligh decks (whatever goyf with burn is called now a days) all suck for slivers. And while vial is an answer to most of these problems, it cant realy carry the deck by itself. This is why it gets easier and easier to make people who know i've been playing slivers for litteraly years believe that i've dropped them, atleast untill game one of whatever tourny it is.

EDIT: in case anyone from wizards reads this.... all this boils down to one thing: Print more, better slivers... and soon.

[FoolofaTook]

How long has it been since they printed a sliver that was a strong addition to a Legacy deck?

[Aggro_zombies]

How long has it been since they printed a sliver that was a strong addition to a Legacy deck?
Planar Chaos.

How about something like this?

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
2 Mirror Entity

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

Obviously not completely optimal, but it's in two colors, runs a reasonable draw engine, and has pretty much all the relevant creatures you want for Slivers. You could even get more tempo-oriented by dropping Swords from the main and running Stifles.

[FoolofaTook]

Planar Chaos.

Wow, that's 2+ years with no major reinforcement.


How about something like this?

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
2 Mirror Entity

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

Obviously not completely optimal, but it's in two colors, runs a reasonable draw engine, and has pretty much all the relevant creatures you want for Slivers. You could even get more tempo-oriented by dropping Swords from the main and running Stifles.

12 colored lands in a 2c deck? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable running that number if it was mono-blue.

[Pinder]

Pinder, I thought that Slivers had a really good Goblins matchup. Has something changed that?

Oh, it still does, especially if you're boarding Talon. Slivers was originally designed when Goblins was the DTB, and as such was engineered to be Goblins' metagame foil.

Goblins isn't really around much anymore, though, and with the advent of Goyf, CounterTop has a decent match against Goblins now anyway, so a great game against Goblins is hardly the excuse to run slivers that it used to be.

Also, many of Volt's more recent lists (UWb and 4c, mostly) were designed for efficiency against Landstil and Countertop, so I'm not sure what the matchup for any of those lists against Goblins is, either.

[Aggro_zombies]

12 colored lands in a 2c deck? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable running that number if it was mono-blue.
You can drop Wastelands for another Mutavault and two Hallowed Fountains or something. Vial "counts" as a colored mana source as far as your creatures go, and your spells are all either free or require only a single colored mana.

EDIT: Hibernation Sliver was never really that great except against board control. Sure, block => damage on => disappear is a nice option to have, but in most cases it's better to just run more pump Slivers and win at combat than it is to be tricksy. That Sliver still works as intended against Deed and EE, which is what you want it most for in the absence of the ability to just draw a bunch more guys with your Standstill/Ringleader.

[Volt]

@AZ: Countersliver doesn't necessarily have to "roll over and die to board control." In fact, I have had great success in recent months against various Landstill and It's the Fear decks, beating them more often than not. No joke, no exaggeration. Hibernation Sliver, Mutavault, and Annul make those matchups very winnable.

@Pinder: Plated Sliver has always had much more to do with Countersliver's success against Goblins than Talon Sliver does. Once your guys become 2/3 or better, it matters little whether they have first strike or not. You just stall until you draw Winged Sliver, and then win. Piledrivers can be handled with Swords, or by throwing an extraneous Plated in their path, or taking the hit while killing off the rest of their green-skinned buddies. You're right, though, that the Goblins matchup isn't nearly as relevant as it was a couple years ago. However, I will note that I've run into Goblins a 3 tournaments in the past couple months, and won each time.

It seems to me that a lot of people are still playing UWg Countersliver, which I think is a bad choice. UWgb is better, but comes with it's own problems. I think UWb is the best, but I can't seem to convince anyone else of this.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that everybody should be playing Countersliver instead of Merfolk or whatever. I think Doug pretty much hit the nail on the head when he said (and I'm paraphrasing) that players on a budget build Merfolk, and people who can afford all the duals/fetches/Forces would rather fill out the rest of the deck with goyfs and counterbalances. And I don't blame them. I mostly keep playing Countersliver because I'm a ridiculous person.

[Elfrago]

Wow, that's 2+ years with no major reinforcement.


Well, Mtavault is a sliver:eek:

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, Mtavault is a sliver:eek:
You lose the argument due to the Mistform Ultimus corollary to Godwin's Law.

Also, Mutavault just piggybacks on the rest of your team without contributing any useful abilities.

EDIT: @Volt - Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that your team is weaker to popular board control cards than most other tribal decks due to almost all of your creatures costing two mana. It's a liability you have to keep in mind when comparing the deck to other tribal options, since Merfok probably has Stifle and Goblins has a varied curve, making EE worse and Deed more expensive to use. One successful EE activation against Slivers is devastating in the absence of Hibernation Sliver, and even then it's generally considered subpar to have to take four to six damage followed by an attack step just to keep yourself from getting raped.

[DrJones]

Only time I've ever seen hibernation Sliver being played, was when a friend payed 10 lives to return all slivers to his hand to protect them from Hurricane, instead of paying just 2 and return the winged sliver to his hand. :tongue:

[Otter]

One successful EE activation against Slivers is devastating in the absence of Hibernation Sliver, and even then it's generally considered subpar to have to take four to six damage followed by an attack step just to keep yourself from getting raped.

EE at 2 blows up Goyf too, so it's not likely that you're taking a big hit on their combat step in addition to Hibernation. Besides, Slivers have Force and they could run Stifle as well. It's good against Slivers, but it's not like they're just sitting ducks to it.

[Volt]

EDIT: @Volt - Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that your team is weaker to popular board control cards than most other tribal decks due to almost all of your creatures costing two mana. It's a liability you have to keep in mind when comparing the deck to other tribal options, since Merfok probably has Stifle and Goblins has a varied curve, making EE worse and Deed more expensive to use. One successful EE activation against Slivers is devastating in the absence of Hibernation Sliver, and even then it's generally considered subpar to have to take four to six damage followed by an attack step just to keep yourself from getting raped.

I'm 4-1 against It's the Fear in rated matches, and I'm also above .500 against Landstill/Dreadstill since I started playing my UWb list. I don't fear EE.


EE at 2 blows up Goyf too

And Counterbalance. This was actually relevant in a rated match I played this weekend. My opponent (a strong player) was forced to blow an EE at 2, killing his own counterbalance, just to make me bounce 2 slivers back to my hand.

[AngryTroll]

I think Slivers is stronger than the article makes the deck out to be. As stated (and beaten to death both in this thread and the Meathooks thread), the lack of a consistent, explosive draw engine is what hurts the deck the most. The curve of two makes Aether Vial a lot better in Slivers than it is in Merfolk, and Hibernation Sliver and Crystalline Sliver are pretty good reasons to run the deck. If Winged and Muscle were combined into one blue or blue white 2cc/creature (Lord of Atlantis for Merfolk), I'd wager that Meathooks would be a stronger pile of 60 cards than Merfolk.

As it is, I feel like Merfolk and Meathooks are like Tempo Thresh and UGW Thresh- they're similar, but one packs a stronger early game with land destruction while the other has a stronger mid- and lategame.

I'd agree with Volt that UWb is the strongest color combination, and that the board control matchups are not as bad as many people suspect.

[Volt]

I think Slivers is stronger than the article makes the deck out to be.

I think Doug gave it a fair shake, actually. I don't have any gripes with the article, other than maybe he could have included a couple of decklists. It was another solid effort by Doug. I especially liked the faux-plug for the Dominaria Wildlife Fund at the beginning. Clever.

[beastman]

@AZ: Countersliver doesn't necessarily have to "roll over and die to board control." In fact, I have had great success in recent months against various Landstill and It's the Fear decks, beating them more often than not. No joke, no exaggeration. Hibernation Sliver, Mutavault, and Annul make those matchups very winnable.

How does annul help those matchups?

[Skeggi]

How does annul help those matchups?
Well, if you'd read Annul you'd realise it'd counter stuff like SDT, CB, Deed, EE and Humility.

[Volt]

How does annul help those matchups?

It counters pretty much everything you're worried about (Standstill, CB, SDT, EE, Deed, Humility) for just one mana, thereby gaining you a bunch of tempo. I usually side in 3 Annul + 3 Spell Snare against ITF and Landstill and proceed to own.

[beastman]

So, What does a cureent list of meathooks look like? And if you were going to try to incorporate standstill what would you cut?

[Volt]

So, What does a cureent list of meathooks look like? And if you were going to try to incorporate standstill what would you cut?

I tested the hell out of Standstill a while back, and here's what I learned:

1. Adding Standstills means cutting Ponders, which means more opening hands you have to toss in.

2. You have to run a bunch of colorless lands (Mutavault + Wasteland) to make sure your deck has a chance to operate better under Standstill than your opponent's deck will. Doug touched on this in his article. Obviously, adding Wastelands and Mutavaults cuts into design space, which basically means fewer slivers. You end up having room for 14-15 slivers, which is a bit sparse, especially since none of them is great by itself.

Ultimately, I found that Standstill made the deck more explosive, but also more inconsistent. I think the latter outweighs the former in this instance, so I'm back to running Ponders now.

Here's the list I'm running right now:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Mutavault

4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

SB:
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Annul
3 Spell Snare
5 metagame slots

[FoolofaTook]

Has anybody made a serious attempt to do a board control version with Necrotic Sliver and Vindicate in the mix? I keep looking at those two and wondering if something ugly could be done with Volrath's Stronghold to get back the sac'd slivers (which would not be the Necrotics obviously) and lock out the opponent. The slivers themselves would handle the weakness in this kind of lockout deck which is the bleed through damage that creatures inflict as the lock is being established.

[Aggro_zombies]

Has anybody made a serious attempt to do a board control version with Necrotic Sliver and Vindicate in the mix? I keep looking at those two and wondering if something ugly could be done with Volrath's Stronghold to get back the sac'd slivers (which would not be the Necrotics obviously) and lock out the opponent. The slivers themselves would handle the weakness in this kind of lockout deck which is the bleed through damage that creatures inflict as the lock is being established.
There might be something to this if Necrotic Sliver's ability could be activated for free, or if the Slivers didn't have to be sacrificed. As it is, you'd almost never want to sacrifice a guy who wasn't about to die already, and with the M10 rules changes you can't even get two-for-ones out of combat anymore.

[beastman]

B/G/W would have to be the color scheme, and then it's just better to run vindicate swords and pulse, while playing goyf and other, more efficient creatures. In other words, playing Rock.

[miss_bun]

I disagree, I think slivers needs to go blue/white. I think running green for muscle slivers is outmoded thinking, even if there are good green sliver options, because it runs into the tarmogoyf trap. Tarmogoyf is great, but it doesn't help the deck. It is good on its own, and slivers is about a wall of synergy smashing into faces.

But force of will is a clue: counterslivers needs to care about control more, and direct its synergy towards that instead of just getting the biggest, fattest slivers possible.

And hibernation sliver isn't that bad: it saves mutavault from wastelands as well as providing emergency force of will food. I'd run 4 if I ran any. But I still think white blue is the way to go.

If I made a countersliver deck today, it'd look like this:

artifacts ~4

4x aether vial

creatures ~20

4x crystalline sliver
4x opaline sliver
4x sinew sliver
4x vedalken aethermage
4x winged sliver

enchantments ~4

4x standstill

instants ~12

4x daze
4x force of will
4x spell snare

lands ~20

4x flooded strand
5x island
4x mutavault
3x polluted delta
4x tundra



I always like your articles, Doug. ^_^

[Jak]

Vedalken Aethermage and Opaline Sliver seem pretty terrible with Crystalline Sliver. Like really terrible.

[miss_bun]

That's the redundant control I meant, tho. Worse case, they both pitch to force and your slivers are sitting pretty and untargetable. Combat tricks took a big hit with 2010, but you can still use block/bounce to make a wall of critters they can't attack past.

Aethermage is a quirky choice, I spose, but opaline is the hard place to crystalline's rock. I still think aethermage is worth it tho.

[Volt]

Opaline Sliver seems halfway reasonable. Vedalken Aethermage is mind-meltingly bad, though. Seriously, I thought about it for a few seconds, then realized my brain was starting to liquefy, so I had to stop thinking about it.

As long as we're tossing around horrible UW lists, here's one of my own:

4 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains

4 Meddling Mage
4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
3 Winged

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill

4 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Negate

[AngryTroll]

As long as we're tossing around horrible UW lists, here's one of my own:

4 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains

4 Meddling Mage
4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
3 Winged

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill

4 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Negate

Really? Meddling Mage over Plated Sliver and Talon Sliver? Only eleven slivers total? Path to Exile over Swords? Oh...I see what you did there. You can name Swords with Mage. Still looks pretty questionable.

Also, your list needs more Vedalken Aethermage. It bounces your slivers to save them from removal, and cycles to find Meddling Mage!

[Volt]

As long as we're tossing around horrible UW lists, here's one of my own

^In case you missed it^

Imo, it simply isn't possible to make a competitive UW sliver list using only the traditional cards we've gotten used to seeing in 3- and 4-color lists during the last couple of years. You end up having to try out some stuff that's a little bit wonky (but not as wonky as Vedalken Aethermage).

[bowvamp]

I just played counterslivers (against it) on MWS. I played pox, and let's just say you need a better strategy against LD. When I got him to no lands he either quit or had a VERY unfortunate network problem. Pox has a lot of problems vs. merfolk, but this match I just needed 3 straight LD's over like 10 turns to kill his whole manabase (plus 2 smallpox, one of them FOW'd). I didn't see a finisher the whole game, but if I was to see one any time soon countersliver's would've just lost.

I'm sorry, but unless wizards prints a sliver GOD, I doubt you guys'll be putting up numbers... we pox people are even wondering if we should include LD or just go straight creature kill (with me LD is amazing, sorry muja).

[miss_bun]

Gimme a break, it was off the top of my head. :P

I thought about mm, but decided on aethermage without noticing the obvious synergy. I guess I'd use both, tho. I'm still not sure path is needed, but that's a cute trick, too.

And in my experience, one game on workstation is not exactly rigorous testing, but that's beside the point. Do you see the idea I was trying to show, even if you don't agree with every card in it?

[AngryTroll]

I just played counterslivers (against it) on MWS. I played pox, and let's just say you need a better strategy against LD. When I got him to no lands he either quit or had a VERY unfortunate network problem. Pox has a lot of problems vs. merfolk, but this match I just needed 3 straight LD's over like 10 turns to kill his whole manabase (plus 2 smallpox, one of them FOW'd). I didn't see a finisher the whole game, but if I was to see one any time soon countersliver's would've just lost.

I'm sorry, but unless wizards prints a sliver GOD, I doubt you guys'll be putting up numbers... we pox people are even wondering if we should include LD or just go straight creature kill (with me LD is amazing, sorry muja).


What kind of "Counterslivers" deck did you play against on MWS? There are a lot of slivers running around, but very few that I'd call optimized lists. Smashing a random deck full of Slivers for a few games over MWS doesn't really prove anything.

The deck is a little bit land light, with only 18 or so lands, and only two basics (Using Volt's list, of course), but the deck packs Vial, Force, and Daze. I'm skeptical that three land destruction spells over the course of the entire game locked him out. Of course, on the other hand, a deck like Pox full of mass removal and land destruction is a hard matchup for the deck.

[miss_bun]

Turn one vial beats pox up.

[MTG-Fan]

What kind of "Counterslivers" deck did you play against on MWS? There are a lot of slivers running around, but very few that I'd call optimized lists. Smashing a random deck full of Slivers for a few games over MWS doesn't really prove anything.

The deck is a little bit land light, with only 18 or so lands, and only two basics (Using Volt's list, of course), but the deck packs Vial, Force, and Daze. I'm skeptical that three land destruction spells over the course of the entire game locked him out. Of course, on the other hand, a deck like Pox full of mass removal and land destruction is a hard matchup for the deck.

Well, I think the point of that particular anecdote was to point out that Slivers can be very easily locked out of certain colors, as opposed to say Merfolk, which is far more resilient to mana denial, yet remains just as powerful a tribe with regard to raw synergy.

[miss_bun]

Is disagree; while there are more powerful interactions in some tribes, nothing has the automatic built in synergy of slivers.

[DrJones]

Except relentless rats. :tongue:

[Volt]

I hear that Roddy T4'd Hadley this weekend with UW or UWr slivers (depending on whose tournament report you read). Can we see the list, Roddy?

EDIT: I found the list

3/4th Roddy Ruban (RoddyVR) Slivers
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta
4 tundra
1 Volcanic Island
2 plains
2 island
4 mutavault
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to plowshares
4 FOW
4 Standstill
2 Daze
2 Spellsnare
2 Brainstorm
4 Plated Slivers
4 Sinew Slivers
4 Crystalline Slivers
3 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Quill Sliver
1 Homing Sliver

SB:
4 Burrenton Forge tender
4 Annul
3 Relic of progenitus
4 Aura of Silence

Now that's an interesting list! Can we get some comments on what you liked/disliked about it, Roddy?

[beastman]

Standstill from a mass. player???

[Volt]

Roddy already post a mini-tournament report and some commentary over in the Countersliver thread in the Established Decks forum...

[RoddyVR]

As i posted earlier, I went from survival slivers to meathooks, and was missing the cards draw/advantage of survival+squee a lot. Having gotten to 4 mutavaults to fight merfolk, standstill seemed a natural fit. Finaly borrowed some from scrumdog for this tourny, and because i couldnt figure out what else to cut, and the conversation here about unstable mana bases, i figured i'd go UW. The homing slivers i put in cause with only the 4 sinews, i needed a way to find them more consistently. The one volcanic didnt realy need to be there, but as the mana base had a bunch of basics in it already, i figured it wouldnt hurt.

Even though i did prety well, end result is: Needs something to help the Sinews. just the 4 is not enough to fight goyfs and such. I never drew the single homing in the hadley tourny. Went up to 2 homing for yesterday's tourny in worcester, actualy cast one once to cycle a plated for a crystalline. Probably still isnt enough, and the homing guys are a bit of a slowdown. I will probably go back to include green for muscles again (or might try black for hibernation), but i like the standstills for now. In 8 rounds of magic this weekend, didnt once get a turn 1 vial turn 2 standstill... :( But only had one time when the standstill in my hand was a dead card (he had two goyfs to my 2/3 slivers), ended up pitching it to FoW i think.
I'm not sure where i'm realy taking the deck for now, but i'll stick with the standstills for a while. Strait UWG meathooks just doesnt cut it, and i like experimenting with the sliver deck, so this will keep me entertained for a few months of tournys.

[RogueMTG]

I was running UWg Meathooks w/Standstill for awhile, it performed well in some local events, though I have never played it in anything big. But, I always had a positive win/loss ratio at least.

//Lands//
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Mutavault
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Total: 19

//Creatures//
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
Total: 19

//Spells//
3 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
Total: 22

The mana-base looks a little sloppy but it worked well in a Wasteland infested meta. The 3/3 Standstill/Brainstorm split has always bugged me on paper but it never felt like a problem when playing.

My SB changed from event to event. But it usually had some number of Stifle + Harmonic Sliver + ???.

Once Merfolk started popping up I moved on to other decks because I found the match wicked obnoxious (not unwinnable, just annoying) and I played it three times in a row one night.

[AngryTroll]

I was talking to Volt about this yesterday, and I guess it may not be common knowledge that Sliver decks, by color, in order of strength, goes something like:

UWb
...
UGW and Four Color
...
...
5 Color Kitchen Table!

UWb is significantly better than UGW, UWgb, 5c, and Sliver Survival.

Crystalline Sliver is the best sliver, by a fair amount, but Hibernation is the second best Sliver. Muscle, Sinew, and Winged (although some combination of these is vital, obviously) are that far again below Hibernation Sliver. So if Crystalline is a 10 and Hibernation is an 8, Muscle, Sinew, and Winged are 6es, Plated is about a 5, Talon is a 4, and the rest are below that (Hulk Flash tricks aside).

Hibernation singlehandedly brings the control matchups up from a losing percentage to a winning percentage. If you don't have Hibernation, you are forced to overextend into mass removal to try and win against control. With Hibernation, you get to overextend and pay life to counter Wrath. Wrath is easily worth 6 life if you buy back Hibernation, Sinew, and a third dork. Countering Swords to Plowshares or Smother is well worth two life.

"Bouncing a Sliver for Force of Will" is probably the most heard, and least useful, benefit of Hibernation. Even without the old combat rules, Hibernation is one of the most valuable bodies in the deck.

[miss_bun]

Honestly, the real issue may be that slivers collectively aren't up to tarmogoyf standards.

[beastman]

I want to try a survival sliver list that uses winged sliver and that poison sliver. That would be so god damn hot.

[miss_bun]

Iono, then all you do is give up the efficiency of tarmogoyf by pumping mana into survival, tho. That really seems to be the issue.

[Volt]

I was running UWg Meathooks w/Standstill for awhile, it performed well in some local events, though I have never played it in anything big. But, I always had a positive win/loss ratio at least.

//Lands//
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Mutavault
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Total: 19

//Creatures//
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
Total: 19

//Spells//
3 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
Total: 22

The mana-base looks a little sloppy but it worked well in a Wasteland infested meta. The 3/3 Standstill/Brainstorm split has always bugged me on paper but it never felt like a problem when playing.

My SB changed from event to event. But it usually had some number of Stifle + Harmonic Sliver + ???.

Once Merfolk started popping up I moved on to other decks because I found the match wicked obnoxious (not unwinnable, just annoying) and I played it three times in a row one night.

That decklist looks pretty reasonable, but I think a few Wastelands would help. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, UWb > UWg.

3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
3 Hibernation
3 Winged
3 Plated
1 Talon

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill

SB:
3 Annul
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
3 ???

I think that's pretty close to an optimal Sliver-still list. Aesthetically speaking, the 3 BS/3 Standstill split kind of bothers me, too, but a lot of Standstill lists are doing the same thing.

[hi-val]

I want to try a survival sliver list that uses winged sliver and that poison sliver. That would be so god damn hot.

RoddyVR had a sliver survival list that I talked about here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/15934_Unlocking_Legacy_More_Than_Mere_Survival.html

I cut the Plateds for Virulent Slivers. It's pretty rad to blast someone for like, 6 poison counters in one attack. If you're looking for something like that, then the list is a good place to start!

[Volt]

RoddyVR had a sliver survival list that I talked about here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/15934_Unlocking_Legacy_More_Than_Mere_Survival.html

I cut the Plateds for Virulent Slivers. It's pretty rad to blast someone for like, 6 poison counters in one attack. If you're looking for something like that, then the list is a good place to start!

Virulent does seem much better in a 'slivival' shell.

[hi-val]

Yep, with Anger, it's pretty unreal. I mean it's not like you're going to get out 4 Virulents in one turn and go in for the kill right then, but you can reliably have Slivers with Virulent: 3 swinging in. It's an interesting way to bypass needing 8 Muscle Slivers to have worthwhile dudes. It makes combat incredibly deadly, and a Vial sitting on 1 with a Survival in play is pretty sick too. The main stumbling point for me was that you want 2-3 Squees in the deck, since between Gemhides and Vials, you're casting a bunch of creatures every turn.

[RoddyVR]

RoddyVR had a sliver survival list that I talked about here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/15934_Unlocking_Legacy_More_Than_Mere_Survival.html

I cut the Plateds for Virulent Slivers. It's pretty rad to blast someone for like, 6 poison counters in one attack. If you're looking for something like that, then the list is a good place to start!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6429

Is the thread for that Survival Slivers deck (though i didnt put the survivals in till like page 2 or 3 of that thread, so the beggining responses are actualy to a non survival list).
Virulent is a BAD sliver (except in hulk combo or something), dont want to have that discussion again. I think in response to that article, we had it twice on this forum.
I played Sliver survival for atleast a year, and had to give it up (for meathooks) because it started losing consistently. Between spellsnare becoming popular and counterbalance, having a deck so heavy in the 2cc was just nonsustainable without any way to fight counters. And that's not to mention the sweepers (which i never realy thought were a good reason not to play slivers, but they do hurt)
It might be that the players in my meta just adjusted to the deck cause i kept playing (and doing well with) it so the hate was just too prevalent, so maybe in another meta where people arent used to it, it can still do well. I have to say i loved playing it, EOT survival squee for Legion, vial him in, my turn attack with 5 7/7 and a 13/13 sliver, is still my favorite play.
The conclusions i reached with the SliverSurvival is:
1. Have 4 Gemhides, you need the mana.
2. Play a one of Legion, he wins games (easily a third of my games were won on him, and could be closer to half).
3. If you're not averse to taking a vial up to 5 to avoid counterspells for the legion, put one or two 3 cost (harmonics unless you have a real like for another 3 drop) and single 4 cost sliver (root or essesnce seem to work best, though i did have Camelion Collosus there for a while) in your deck to have stuff to vial in on your way to legion.
4. (this one is debatable) Heart sliver is better then Anger, Winged is better then wonder.

[Cire]

LOL, Just in time;

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=174143

Another special edition that wizards is putting out. It's a 60 card sliver deck, including the "best slivers of all time" and it's all Foil! :laugh:

[Volt]

LOL, Just in time;

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=174143

Another special edition that wizards is putting out. It's a 60 card sliver deck, including the "best slivers of all time" and it's all Foil! :laugh:

Huh. Does this mean we shall have foil Wingeds and Hibernations, at last?

[RoddyVR]

OH NO!!!

I cant believe i'm gonna have to spend $35 (if i'm lucky enough to find these things at retail price) for a precon. And i WILL. Dam it. If they dont include Winged, Hibernation, and hopefully Heart in it (its a sliver deck, it has to be 5 colors to include the legendary ones). Foil Sliver Queen would so make it worth the $35, but somehow i doubt they'll do that.

Someone quick, tell me how to get these things at retail? Do i need to like preorder it or something or should i just go live at the magic stores around here around the time these come out?