Glimpse Elves with Natural Order

[Anusien]

This was a deck I was working on for a while. I'm no longer pursuing it actively, in part because it'll be a real pain to get the cards and I want to mess with other stuff for a while. I wanted to go ahead and post the list before I lost it. I built the deck pre-Elvish Archdruid, and I don't think the creature changes much in the maindeck, but it's worth thinking about.

4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Chord of Calling
1 Krosan Grip

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger

4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Mirror Entity
1 Progenitus
1 Regal Force

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven

The deck makes a lot of mana. It's quite common to dump 4-5 power on the table on turn 2 if you have two Forests, and if you have a Pendelhaven you'll dump 5-7 power on the table turn 2. This is pretty freaking powerful. That's your primary win condition against blue decks; lots of guys. You have a strong A plan in that you combo out with Glimpse, and a strong B plan in that Progenitus is really hard to stop.

When you play the deck, keep track of which guys aren't summoning sick. It matters if you want to win that turn with Mirror Entity. Generally if it comes to it you don't have to pass because you can untap your guys with Rangers or Symbiotes; you just need to make sure you have enough creatures untapped to swing. Generally try to avoid bouncing to your hand guys that are not sick.

The deck is very very explosive in game one situations, and I wouldn't be surprised if you won most of them. In game 1, your biggest danger is Counterbalance/Top on turn 2 or Goblin decks that can tutor up a maindeck Sharpshooter. Your plan in game 1 against Goblins is to either beat easily the ones without Sharpshooter or to race the ones with it (this is very doable). Pendelhaven is mostly there to save you against Sharpshooter; just make sure to keep it untapped if possible to protect Symbiote; if you have Pendelhaven untapped and especially if you also have Symbiote they can't machine gun your team. Post-board here you want to get access to lords, Jittes and probably a singleton Burrenton Forge-Tender.

Against Counterbalance your plan is make a bunch of guys before it comes down and attack, and your B plan is Natural Order. They can't really Counterbalance it, so just don't walk it into Daze. You also have access to Chord of Calling and a few chances to Grip/Harmonic if you need it. Post-board you probably want more Grips and Harmonic Slivers. You might also consider Wren's Run Packmaster.

The biggest problem in game 2 situations is over-sideboarding. You only have a handful of slots to play with, and you want to board much more than that.

[Finn]

Kevin, which decks does Glimpse help out against that Natural Order does not do better? Or do I have that backwards? I want to find out how this usually unfolds with regards to disruption. I.E. I figure Glimpse is a must-counter and so is Order. So the course of action you recommend against say, Countertop-Goyf stuff is to just fill the battlefield with elves that will attack. OK. That sounds reasonable.

Why do we need Glimpse and Order for stuff that is not likely to disrupt you though? I find myself thinking that I want to just choose one of them and have 4 more elves or Thorn of Amethyst or something. What am I missing?

[Anusien]

Because 4 more elves aren't as good? Glimpse and Natural Order will both almost certainly straight up win if they resolve. Therefore, I run both. The 1.x builds ran 4 Summoner's Pact in place of Natural Order; I've had that and Chord of Calling in that place. Natural Order just does that much more effectively.

Like is your argument actually, "Run 4 auto-win cards instead of 8 so you can run more 1-drops"? Seriously?

[Finn]

Yeah, pretty much. I'm talking about that unspoken threshold of creatures you have to manage to make Glimpse work. I have had experiences (not this deck) experimenting with Glimpse in which it fizzles out even with ~30 creatures in the deck. Are Symbiotes really all it takes to get around that?

[Anusien]

You don't need to win the turn you cast Glimpse. If you just play out your hand and draw a bunch of creatures, that's fine. That way if they happened to Firespout or blow EE or something, you're still in good condition.

[Finn]

K, thx

[Anusien]

Sideboard is not solid as per previous problems with sideboarding the deck, but for sure wants 4 Thorn of Amethyst against combo, extra Krosan Grips, Elf Lords of various shapes and Umezawa's Jitte.

[GGoober]

I was wondering if Glimpse Elf is possible of doing something close to the Vintage Elves, where you dump your hand asap and beat for 2 turns, or grapeshot for nonlethal and beat for win i.e. an all-in attack and gameplan akin to belcher lol.

I like the idea. It seems like a fast aggrocombo deck. I was wondering if it's worth to splash red for grapeshot. You don't need to grapeshot for lethal, but just enough like 7-8 damage so your other elves can finish the dirty job.

[Anusien]

Why is Grapeshot better at that than Mirror Entity?

Also, the best 1.x lists run Mirror Entity and not Grapeshot.

[gamegeek2]

I was tinkering with this idea earlier. It's fun, and Natural order is in general a nice improvement over Chord. I like having some Summoner's pact in there.

Grapeshot is nice that it can be played in multiples and simply be used to speed up the beatdown plan, as in Vintage.

Gaea's Cradle is brokenly good in this deck, but the problem is, it doesn't work as your only land, and it's a mulligan in multiples.

[Anusien]

I was never in a condition where I wanted to cast Summoner's Pact. You're at big risk of losing the game.

Mirror Entity is better at speeding up the goldfish, because it magnifies all your Elves. You can easily beat other aggro decks this way.

[Kanti]

Ive always wanted to post about Combo Elves, since the other threads suck, I just didnt have the balls to do so since I didnt have adequate testing.

I will say though, Legacy is not Extended so stop making presumptions that Entity will be better than Grapeshot. Creature kill, counters, and Stifle to an extent all deal with Entity, compared to just Stifle affecting Grapeshot. Still, Entity has the bonus of being tutorable.

A singleton Krosan Grip is going to be game-breaking very rarely, either up the count or swap it out for another Harmonic seeing as that is tutorable. Also, 3 Rangers is too many, go down to two.

If you are going to play Chord play it as a 2-3 of, though it loses power without Hivemaster.

Id go -1 Harmonic, -1 Entity, -1 Chord, -1 Ranger, +2 Krosan, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Eternal Witness if you have a heavy CB/Top meta, if not I could see Krosan bieng replaced by some Lords maindeck.

Edit: You have too many Cradles, its going to force you into mulls.

[Anusien]

I'm pretty confident that 4 Gaea's Cradle is right. I tested 3 for a long time and constantly wanted more. I worked with 4 for a bit and never really ran into problems with them.

Generally, Mirror Entity isn't really counterable. I mean, yes, the card can be affected by Force of Will. But generally if I see it it's because I've started drawing tons of cards with either Glimpse of Nature or Regal Force. It's technically true that it can be affected by creature removal, but generally it gets played and activated right away. So if they have Stifle + StP I'm in trouble in that case, but generally I'll have a ton of creatures in play. So I guess if they have Stifle + StP + untap and Wrath, I'm in trouble. If that happens though, Grapeshot would have been pretty miserable too. The other problem is that Grapeshot is super hard to find. At least I have a Chord of Calling to help find Entity.
That said, I'm pretty sure Grapeshot is straight-up wrong. It requires another color, which is minor but noteworthy. (Yes Birchlore can make Red. That said, it's an important precaution to have the Taiga). In games where I draw Mirror Entity after comboing, they're about equal. In games where I draw Mirror Entity without comboing, Mirror Entity is far superior because I can topdeck it onto a board with like 3-4 Elves and a Cradle and easily win. I don't really need either; it's possible to just make lots of Elves, untap and bash. Mirror Entity is safer and it does nasty things to Goblins.

Having two Harmonic Slivers because they're tutorable is pretty stupid. I've only got the one card in the maindeck that can find it (yes, technically Natural Order can get Harmonic Sliver. I find it unlikely). But am I ever going to tutor up a second Harmonic Sliver after I've already used one? Generally I want 1 Harmonic Sliver to tutor and the rest are Krosan Grips. The one in the maindeck is just a presideboarding.

I think 3 Ranger is actually about right. I certainly like having Ranger and Llanowar Elf more than 2 Llanowar Elf.

I'd like to play more Chords, but I don't really have much to cut for them other than a Ranger and a Fyndhorn. That said, the Chord is sort of a catch-all in the maindeck anyway, and is likely to get cut against non-blue decks.

Pretty sure Eternal Witness is kind of awful. It costs too much to do anything relevant.

[nodahero]

I must respectfully disagree Anusien. I have been playing combo elves since it was first shown in Berlin and have since played it in our beloved format and also currently standard.

From personal experience the inclusion of Grapeshot dramatically increases the speed this deck can end the game. All to often I can draw and play 18+ spells on turn 2 or certainly 3 and am capable of winning that turn without the combat phase thanks to Grapeshot. As a side note in defense of E-Witness she also allows the Grapeshot kill to go off with a significantly reduced storm count. The value of Grapeshot-> E-Witness -> Grapeshot should not be ignored. This line of play is also an option to beat stifle. (Note that these observations use Summoner's Pact and a Taiga as the only red producing land)

I do however realize that there is value in the inclusion of Mirror Entity due to his ability to super size our pint size people and the higher value it creates when top decked in comparison to Grapeshot "mid game".

As a last side note I really am curious about your inclusion of 3 or 4 Cradle. In the Grapeshot version almost every time I win I have one or two forests and a Cradle as my third drop when I go the throat. I find myself wondering if you are willing to risk the mulligans and dead draws for the more consistent cradle drops. I supose another question that ties to this is the typical kill turn your deck can generate.

[Anusien]

As Feldman would say, start with the gutsy version and see if it ever comes back to bite you in the ass. I never had a problem with 4 Cradle. If you do, cut it for another Forest. Turn 2 Cradle directly correlates to more explosive hands.

[Kanti]

Generally Mirror Entity isnt counterable? Wasteland on your Cradle? EE on your dudes? Stifle, instant removal? You are presuming you Glimpse too much, that doesnt happen in Legacy.

If you are playing against CB/Top good looking getting off a Glimpse, and even if you are playing against Tempo Thresh its highly unlikely. I dont think you played very much Elves in extended, the deck had a bitch of a time against Faeries which runs a crapton less control than Legacy aggro/control decks do.

Having 1 random md Krosan Grip is not just pretty stupid, its fucking retarted, compared to having another Sliver that you could tutor for have you up the tutor count, or just use to beat with if you have an Entity out. Either way, both are stupid and bad decisions, but the later is a bit less. You cant tutor for KGrip, and are going to draw it either in your opening7+lucky topdeck, or if on a Glimpse turn, which woudnt happen in the first place if you are looking for Grip. I guess you could make the arguement that EE is prevelant in your meta, but its still pretty retarted.

Eternal Witness would be there to prevent the Stifle on Grapeshot, which is much better than running a lonely Entity. The red mana is irrelevant since you would not be running white.

Alas, I too beleive that Mirror Entity is better, just not as you run it. Ill try testing with 3 Entities since you are right in the point that a topdecked Entity is going to carry you to a win, not so with a Grapeshot. The point of Entity is that is wasnt a dead topdeck, and that you could tutor it. You run a total of one tutor, and one Entity, making it pretty crappy.


Edit: Another point on running more Entities that not every Glimpse turn sends you into combo paradise, sometimes youlle just end up with 6-8 creatures.

[Anusien]

You're missing my point. I can tutor up the Harmonic Sliver. Extra copies beyond the first are much much better as Krosan Grips because they're uncounterable. Would it make you feel better to mentally go -1 Chord of Calling +1 Krosan Grip?

Honestly though, I don't think I want all that many tutors. They get in the way. I side Chord out a lot anyway, I think I just want Jitte or something in the main deck.

[frogboy]

Jitte seems unbelievably clunky. In Extended it was only ever good out of the board.

FWIW, the better Elves players I knew had a Grapeshot towards the end of the season.

[Kanti]

You are missing the point, it is clunky to run 1 KGrip, 1 Chord, 1 Harmonic if you are tryng to deal with CB/Top or Landstill or whatever, but better to run x3 Krosan.

[Pinni]

edit:

sorry wrong place for my post.

[nodahero]

While I have not tested the following suggestion... it seems to merit some thought... Elevish Archdruid... I would wager he is basically a 100 times better than the Force mage... not to mention you can lower the priest count because she seems fairly poor in the deck... why do you need near infi mana?

[Anusien]

I'm pretty sure that the deck really doesn't want Priest of Titania. That said, your list doesn't have Natural Order and doesn't really fit the thread. Please go elsewhere to discuss it.

I don't think the deck wants Elvish Archdruid in the main. Out of the side it's very compelling; against Goblins and things your early Elves are in jeopardy and I think you want a bunch of Lords anyway. That said, I'm not sure whether you'd want Elvish Champion or Perfect more, since those guys have abilities that might be more relevant.

[MTG-Fan]

So would Survival be decent in this kind of list?

[Anusien]

Survival takes the deck in a completely different direction. And no, I don't think it is. I feel like Survival makes the deck slower and more vulnerable to countermagic, especially Spell Snare which the deck almost ignores at the moment.

[Shabbaman]

I was never in a condition where I wanted to cast Summoner's Pact. You're at big risk of losing the game.

Pact is one of my favorite cards of the elf combo deck. It lets you untap sentinels for free if you're in desperate need of mana, and make the deck more consistent (as in: gets you that other sentinel when you draw a land off of your glimpse) when you combo. But that's just a personal preference I think, I guess it suits my play style. On the other hand I don't like Natural order, especially as I don't really want to draw it off a glimpse. It feels like a win more-card, it doesn't strengthen the combo. But it does strengthen the deck, where Pact, well, might not. So okay, sweepers screw you after Pact, but you'd have a hard time after a sweeper anyway. It might be a win less-card, but I don't feel it as such.

Anyway, nice that you shared your results. I like this deck and I think it deserves a bit more attention than it gets on this forum.

[Atikin]

Why not run burning wish? Also, I would have to disagree with your evaluation of pact. If they sweep your board, chances are your not gonna be able to get back in the game. The risks you take with pact will be minimal compared to the advantage you get by having a 0 mana demonic tutor while comboing off. It untaps nettles for free, and is NEVER a bad draw.