BW Token Control

[The Professor]

So I'm taking this to a tournament again tonight. The first time I brought it, I had good results, but now it's been fine tuned. Here's the list:

BW Tokens v1.0

Token Producers:

4x Bitterblossom
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Decree of Justice
2x Raise the Alarm

Control:

4x Humility
4x Vindicate
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Thoughtseize
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Oblivion Ring

The rest:

3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Pulse of the Fields
1x Ajani Goldmane

Land:

4x Scrubland
3x Windbrisk Heights
2x Cave of Koilos
1x Fetid Heath
1x Ancient Den
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
5x Plains
3x Swamps


Card Justification:

Bitterblossom: Probably the main and most reliable token source. Good with or without Humility.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant: Token producer, game-ending second ability that overrides Humility, occasional back-breaking ultimate finish.

Decree of Justice: Amazing instant-speed, uncounterable token source that is also a finisher if need be.

Raise the Alarm: This deck needs tokens, so why not make them cheap and at instant speed? I played around with Spectral Procession, but I'll leave that for the Standard kiddos. I like instant tricks. Great with Humility, of course.

Humility: The great equalizer. Once this baby hits the board, you've won unless they can answer it.

Vindicate: Um...I don't need to justify.

Cabal Therapy: Great control early and late. You can eat tokens to Flashback and not feel guilty.

Thoughtseize: Again, wonderful control. Starting a game off with this or Cabal is common and powerful.

Umezawa's Jitte: Insanity. Gains the life lost from Thoughtseize, Fetches, and Blossom; kills Himility-ed tokens no prob; pumps for the win. Great card in here.

Oblivion Ring: I hate one-ofs, but I never regret seeing this when I draw it. It's tutorable, too.

Enlightened Tutor: Fetches Humility, Bitterblossom, Jitte, O-Ring, and my one-of artifact land. Great fixing.

Pulse of the Fields: Between Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, and Fetches, the pinging alone makes these worth it. Beyond that, you've got an opponent who's hitting you as you get established. This is such a good card in here it's not even funny. Oh yeah, thanks, Wizards, for nixing mana burn, too, since now it's even better. Once Humility hits, too, it's just funny to watch them swing an army at you and you can just gain the life back.

Ajani Goldmane: I'm testing him tonight. The 4cc slot is packed, and there is no way in hell I'm taking out Elspeths or Humiltys. He does gain back life, and his second ability is great, but really only broken with a Humility or an army out. I'll try him out as a one-of tonight and see how it goes.

Lands: Pretty standard. I didn't put in Wastelands, only because I don't have diggers or card advantage, really. I have enough to do early/mid besides trying to disrupt mana-bases. I may change my mind, but this is a meta choice at the moment.

Windbrisk Heights: Worked out well. Considering dropping to 2.

Cave of Koilos: Ditch for Shock lands? Basics?



By the way, sideboard would consist of a mix of the following:

Extirpate
Pithing Needle
Relic of Progenitus
Engineered Plague
CoP: Red
Wrath of God (?)


I can post tourney results if you all are interested. Thanks for taking the time to check this out and, as always, feedback is appreciated.

[rockout]

What's up with your mana base? It's all over the place. I'm assuming you don't have extra fetchlands.

[Anusien]

I'm not convinced you ever played the 1.x version. I'd like to see more anthems and fewer situational junk. Decree of Justice and Raise the Alarm are both pretty poor; if you need help with your curve in that slot, run something else. I don't forsee this deck actually being able to control with any sort of regularity, so I'd rather see it beat down. Try Tidehollow Sculler at 2, Glorious Anthem... basically most of the cards the deck played in T2 are better than what you have here.

That said, I don't think you gain enough in the transition to make the deck worthwhile. But if you wanted to approach this deck, make it beat down. Just because you call it "Control" and have Vindicates doesn't mean you can do what you want to do with it. Humility and Cabal Therapy are nice touches, but Jitte and the rest are slow and open you up too much. And an Enlightened Tutor engine here just seems miserable.

[Nessaja]

I'd run WoG/Damnation if i were you, can't always rely on Humility and in addition you should probably run Factories.

[The Professor]

I tried Sculler, but it becomes a 1/1 for BW with Humility out, and having Humility out is a major point.

Those were in the original version of the deck that you don't believe I played. They sucked unless I was able to get them out before Humility hit. If you can play one, and then a Humility, great, seeing as how the "when leaves play" ability goes away, but the "comes into play" is also negated by Humilty, as is Dark Confidant, etc. That's why it has the "free" token makers (Bitterblossom, etc), so as to avoid creatures that are wasted once the deck hits it control (there's that word again) card, Humility. Humility negates the beat down you think I should strive for.

So, you think Cloudgoat Ranger deserves a spot? It's garbage, especially with Humility out.

Spectral Procession better than Raise the Alarm? Prove it. I'd rather have two 1/1s at instant speed than three 1/1s at sorcery speed (and three white mana nonetheless).

Yes, Glorious Anthem is good when you're devoted to beat down, but if I wanted beat down, I wouldn't have posted this list. That's flirting with the same logic as "don't play Landstill, play fish, there are more threats in fish." Yes, but it's also a different archetype.

I like the "add WoG or Damnation" part. I had those in there, but the 4cc is already pretty packed. Maybe a 2-of.

How is Decree of Justice bad by any means? There are plenty of viable Legacy decks that run this card (namely Landstill variants) and they fit even better here. I'll need some convincing as to why that should go and what should replace it that isn't retarded with Humility.

I have 4x of every fetch, but don't see the reason to only run 4-ofs if they can only grab one color at a time. I have 3 that grab black and 2 that grab white. Adding more is fine, but, in this instance, a Polluted Delta and a Bloodstained Mire are the same thing.

The Ancient Den is there to Tutor for, but it's not necessary (helped on more than one occasion, though); the Fetid Heaths and Koilos are simply there to fix the colors. Alternatives?

If I run Mishra's, would I be expected to run Crucibles? If so, at what cost?

The argument against Jitte simply seems silly to me. They are good in every other deck they are played in, and are more than a perfect fit in here. Like I said, life gain, killing things, and pumping are exactly what this deck needs and Jitte does it all.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone, but, as you have probably gleaned, this isn't a beatdown deck, and if it's not controllish enough, maybe post alternatives rather than saying "play the standard version." Barf. I'd rather splash green for Deed or Engineered Explosives (both of which I've tried).

[Rizso]

I tried Sculler, but it becomes a 1/1 for BW with Humility out, and having Humility out is a major point.

Those were in the original version of the deck that you don't believe I played. They sucked unless I was able to get them out before Humility hit. If you can play one, and then a Humility, great, seeing as how the "when leaves play" ability goes away, but the "comes into play" is also negated by Humilty, as is Dark Confidant, etc. That's why it has the "free" token makers (Bitterblossom, etc), so as to avoid creatures that are wasted once the deck hits it control (there's that word again) card, Humility. Humility negates the beat down you think I should strive for.


Scullers should come before humility anyway to force Humilty through. But maybe duress would be better then that thought. But there is 8 discards thats should be enought.

[Maveric78f]

In SB, engineered plague is huge. It comboes with humility as well as being a great SB card against swarm decks.
In the same deck idea, I used to play the white genju. It seems far better than your other life gain solutions. At least the white genju is tutorable. In the same idea, I also think that jitte*1 is enough.

Token Producers: 9
4x Bitterblossom
4x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Genju

Control: 18
4x Humility
4x Vindicate
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Oblivion Ring

Card Quality:
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Sensei's divining top

4x empty slots

Land:
23 lands real mana base

But anyway this kind of deck it too easy to answer with EE, krosan grip on humility, burn your face, etc... That's why I prefer my Stompy version at this moment, which is a bit more aggro and more explosive:
// Lands
2 [SHM] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [TE] Humility
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [GP] Leyline of the Meek
4 [MR] Raise the Alarm
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [P3] Ravages of War
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle

[The Professor]

Update:

17 Token Producers:

4x Bitterblossom
4x Raise the Alarm
4x Spectral Procession
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Decree of Justice

19 Control:

4x Humility
4x Vindicate
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Martial Coup

24 Land:

4x Scrubland
3x Kjeldoran Outpost
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Flooded Strand
3x Windbrisk Heights
7x Plains
3x Swamp


Martial Coup as a sweeper has actually worked out. Worst case scenario, it gets you tokens alone. More token producers "sped" the deck up and upped its win conditions. It's much less clunky with the Enlightened Tutor engine.

I played around with Mishra's Factory, as they are good with Elspeth, BUT, this deck has no recursion, so that trick isn't as powerful, unless of course you have multiple Factories in play. The Kjeldoran Outposts have played nicely in here, actually. I may drop to 2, but haven't playtested enough to make the call.

I want to sneak in 4x Path to Exile, but really don't know what to take out. I contemplated taking out the Spectral Processions, but 3 for 3 is pretty nice.

I did try Leyline of the Meek, and it was ok, but this build has brought a bit better results. Card advantage is still an issue, though; I'm considering Phyrexian Arena over Bob (humility), but I'll get your thoughts on this.


P.S. I know this isn't (and probably won't be) a Tier 1 deck, but we can still tweak it to run its smoothest.

[Media314r8]

I think you will have to concede some 1-for-1 removal, namely, swords. I also think you will need at least 8 discard spells to have any chance at beating combo, and if you're a 'control' deck that desn't beat combo, you should probably just play ichorid and beat aggro and burn.

[The Professor]

-1 Decree of Justice
-4 Spectral Procession

+1 Thoughtseize
+4 Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile?


Eh?

[K_Rot_T]

Whats with Hour of Reckoning? Tapping your Creatures for one turn seems worth it, as you will destroy most of the time all creatures of your opponent.
Or do you have the mana for Martial Coup all the time, to destroy all creatures? I think Hour is better than coup. But if you search removel AFTER you played Humility, Zealous Persecution is you Card of choice.
Maybe Jötun Owl Keeper for the card advantage? Hmm forgot he doesnt work under Humility.

Sun Droplet to survive until you play Humility? And afterwards it just keeps you alive.
Pendalhaven? You dont need the Green, but the Pump works even with Humilty, or Else if you activate her after the Haven.
Also Rustic Clachan would be nice, because the Counter still works under Humilty, but coming into Play tapped kinda screw it.
Smoke Stack? You have the token Producer, so Stack should be quite strong.

Whats with Moat instead of Humilty? Most of the Tokens you produce already have Flying.
Last idea: Phyrexian Tower or Ancient Tomb, both to make 4-Drops turn 3 possible (including Jitte play+equip)

[The Professor]

Hmm, Hour of Reckoning is not bad. What do others think? Hour of Reckoning vs. Martial Coup. Each has its ups and downs for sure. Or should I go with good ol' Wrath of God?

Phyrexian Tower is nice, too; God knows this deck needs some accelerate help.

I've avoided Ancient Tomb because of:

Fetches
+
Thoughtseize
+
Bitterblossom


I lost a tournament to my own cards eating me alive vs. a red deck, so I'm wary to add more life-loss cards, even though I know they are awesome.

Thanks for the great card options, folks; it's giving some great ideas.

[Ectoplasm]

Zealous persecution? :D

[Pastorofmuppets]

Pernicious Deed/EE/Powder Keg=you scoop.

[The Professor]

Pernicious Deed/EE/Powder Keg=you scoop.

As is the case with many decks, which is why 8 discard and 4 Vindicates are main decked.

We can list all kinds of things that would warrant a scoop, but we could do that with every other deck on the site, too.

So, they drop a Deed/EE/Keg before it's discarded and without a response: they'd have to do it for 4 to get Elspeth or Humility (therefore EE is basically out of the picture in most metas). Deed is a problem, yes, but are you saying we should scoop because they took out our tokens easily or because they had enough time to kill our enchantments? If it's tokens, brush yourself off and get more. This deck can generate some more tokens no prob. If it's your entire permanent base, well then of course that's a problem, but Stax, Goblins, Survival, Zoo, are going to cry just as hard when a Deed hits that drastically.

I can't remember the last Keg I saw in a viable deck.

Consensus: Deed sucks. Yup, but it sucks against a gamut of decks and doesn't make them unattemptable (<-- made up word of the day). Hopefully you haven't overextended and can play around such cards.

[Media314r8]

I cannot possibly imagine Kjeldoran Outpost being even remotely good in a deck that seeks to cycle decree of justice to make tokens, plays humility and martial coup for seven mana. This isn't control circa 1998, losing two lands and two turns worth of tempo to a single wasteland is not what this deck can afford to open itself up to simply to utilize a poor token-producing land. Use Kher keep for god's sake, as it costs only one extra mana to use and doesn't put you behind on land drops and generate card disadvantage. The tokens are all the same under humility anyhow.

With eight fetches and 24 lands in the deck, I'd like to see sensei's top in the 60 as at least a three-of to keep the gas flowing/find answers more regularly. That or use some kind of draw engine.

Without testing the deck, from a control standpoint, (as the deck is not anywhere near a tier 1 aggro deck) here's the list I would start from:

Lands (26)
3 strand
4 heath
4 savannah
2 plains
1 forest
4 maze of ith
2 Tranquil thicket
4 Secluded Steppe
2 riftstone portal

4 mox diamond
4 life from the loam

1 worm harvest
2 martial coup
3 Elspeth

3 exile (hot CB-proof tech... possibly swords)
4 CoTV
4 humility

SB
4 trinisphere
3 pithing needle
3 krosan grip
3 choke
2 aura of silence

[The Professor]

I've considered green for Loam alone (+ Mishra's Factory, yes please). That would then make Moxes an auto-include, which is 8 slots, but significantly ups the resilience. Who in God's name would run 4 Maze of Iths ever (Yes, I'll admit the Outposts weren't the best call, but 4 Iths in a mana-intensive Humility deck?? :wink: ).

Ok, splash o' Green, take one:


4x Bitterblossom
4x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Decree of Justice

3x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond

4x Humility
4x Vindicate
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Thoughtseize
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Martial Coup


24 Land:

4x Scrubland
4x Bayou
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Flooded Strand
2x Wasteland
2x Phyrexian Tower/Windbrisk Heights (debatable)
1x Plains
1x Swamp



Ok, now there is, as stated, a bit more resiliency with the Loams and Factories, but less consistent token producers.

Wrath of God seems better now that the number of tokens has gone down and Elspeth + Factory is awesome.

I still am not seeing where 4x Path to Exiles/Swords to Plowshares would squeeze in, as I think either would help greatly. I'm considering:

-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Cabal Therapy
-2 Umezawa's Jitte

+4 PtE/StP

Hmmm...


Anyway, thoughts on the Green splash? The sideboard just got better anyway :)

[Media314r8]

Who in God's name would run 4 Maze of Iths ever (Yes, I'll admit the Outposts weren't the best call, but 4 Iths in a mana-intensive Humility deck?? :wink: ).


See riftstone portal, loam, and mox diamond. Uncounterable removal that doubles as mid-game mana is mad tech, and helps you get to the midgame whether or not you see a portal.

[The Professor]

Unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't Bloodghast be incredible in this? Great with Cabal Therapy, Elspeth, and most importantly, Humility. It adds some resilience, speed, and aggro.

With Humility in play, Bloodghast can block and be in again to do the same when you drop your next land. I think it's a good fit for this little pet deck of mine. Thoughts?

[socialite]

Unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't Bloodghast be incredible in this? Great with Cabal Therapy, Elspeth, and most importantly, Humility. It adds some resilience, speed, and aggro.

With Humility in play, Bloodghast can block and be in again to do the same when you drop your next land. I think it's a good fit for this little pet deck of mine. Thoughts?

Bloodghast cannot block.

Or can it under Humility?

[AlterEgo]

"Bloodghast can't block." is an ability, so:
Yes, he can!

[The Professor]

Yup, that's why it's awesome in this deck. I'll post a revised list of my original deck idea with these included. Seems like a great fit.

[The Professor]

BW Tokens, version 1.7 (for me and my testing)


4x Bitterblossom
4x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Bloodghast

4x Humility
4x Vindicate
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God

2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond

21 Land:

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Swamp

[(nameless one)]

Under the same discussion with Humility and Bloodghast, Tidehollow Sculler had that CIP ability, so he doesn't get affected with Humility. However, he is better with Humility in play because the removed card does not retun to you opponent's hand. With Humility, Tidehollow Sculler becomes a Castigate with 1/1 body.

I believe, Bloodghast is better with Humility as well since you have a 1/1 body that returns back into play when you landfall that can block your opponent's 1/1.

[The Professor]

Under the same discussion with Humility and Bloodghast, Tidehollow Sculler had that CIP ability, so he doesn't get affected with Humility. However, he is better with Humility in play because the removed card does not retun to you opponent's hand. With Humility, Tidehollow Sculler becomes a Castigate with 1/1 body.

I believe, Bloodghast is better with Humility as well since you have a 1/1 body that returns back into play when you landfall that can block your opponent's 1/1.

While I'm not sure if you're advocating the use of Tidehallow Sculler, see post #5 for my comments on it. It isn't that great in this deck. Yes, it's great pre-Humility, but with Humility on the board, it's a pretty crappy play (and draw). Bloodghast is indeed superior (so I think I ended up agreeing with you throughout).

I may run Damnation over WoGs, though, since it plays nicer with Phyrexian Tower.


Do you guys like the Mox Diamonds in there? It's my biggest debate right now. I like the initial pop, but the land count is sort of low to support it super consistently and the deck is pretty damn tight as-is (what to cut?). The problem is, the cards I'm considering to replace Moxes are overall a bit weaker (4x Raise the Alarm (awesome with Humilty, though)). Thoughts?