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Maveric78f
07-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Bounces are card disadvantage by nature. So, why are we so many to play them?
- tempo card: gain 1 turn or 2 and kill before your opponent can recover. Main targets: defensive creatures and chumpblockers.
- removal before a big turn in combo decks: deal with hate. Main targets : a bit everything from artifacts (Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Thorns of Amethyst), enchantments (Counterbalance, Runed Halo, Solitary Confinement) and creatures (Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Cannonist).
- free yourself from a lock: unlock the game. Main Targets: enchantments (Moat, Blood Moon, Ghostly Prison, Counterbalance), artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void) and Glacial Chasm.
- synergies with your deck: bounce your own cards (Gilded Drake, Smokestack, 0CC artifacts in order to create storm, creatures with Aluren), or in addition to mana denial.
- opportunity offered by your opponent cards: disruption when your opponent plays cards that take a lot of resources (Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Isochron Scepter, Glacial Chasm, Leylines, Moxen, cards that were not actually played/playable for instance with Academic Rector, Show and Tell or Eureka), cards that take several turns to be effective (Aether Vial, Smokestack, Powder Keg) or to make their token cease to exist (Empty the Warren, Worm's Harvest).
- save your permanents' ass: another opportunistic use, save a killer permanent in response to opponent's removal.

Boomerang: probably outdated. The UU cost makes it sometimes difficult to play and it is almost always weaker than Echoing Truth, because there is a low interest in bouncing lands in legacy: you can't counter them, the resource they cost is light compared to UU, especially, it makes you lose tempo. Daze is huge in legacy, so what's the use in bouncing lands? Ok, Glacial Chasm. But who plays that?
Echoing Truth: a bit cheaper than Boomerang. Its strength can be annoying sometimes, so that it should be played only in decks that do not play tarmogoyf. Its weakness is that it can be forbidden by Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. Its strength is its ability to deal with all the Empty the Warren tokens. It sees play in some Merfolks builds, even if I think it's not optimal.
Wipe Away: the perfect boomerang. It's 3CC and split second. As boomerang it's universal. However the bounce effect is a bit weak to justify to spend 3CC on a single target. It can appear in legacy as a wish target or in 1 slot in tempo thresh, even if I personally think it's an error to prefer it over other 3CC bounces that do more.
Chain of Vapor: Chain of vapor has 2 unique features: 1/generate storm or cheat with your own permanents and then bounce it back to the opponent as you have nothing worth targetting, 2/non-land universal for 1CC. Despite that, it's only regularly played in Aluren (cheat with your own creatures) and Ichorid (low CC). The drawback of getting your own stuff bounced is not the only explanation to that: the 1CC feature is as much a weakness as a strength. Indeed, chalice and counterbalance are immuned to it and being able to bounce these 2 lock pieces is actually the main reason to play bounces in legacy.
Rushing River: My favourite bounce. I play a lot of tempo aggro controls (not thresh) and it's clearly the best contender for these decks, that play quite a lot of lands (20+) and a lot of mana denial. It's also great with standstill. In combo decks, it has also the advantage to bounce any 2 threats. It's never affected by chalice. It dodges counterbalance quite reliably.
Repeal: I used to like it too because it cantrips which makes it the perfect escaper for your own permanents as well as being a good disrupter to most. But it's inability to deal with Chalice of the Void, Leylines and Tombstalker make it incomplete. And generally, when you play a bounce, you want it to be effective against anything. It's good with Gilded Drakes too (I know no one cares but I do). Except in MUC I don't see it much nowadays. It's quite underrated in my opinion.
Consign to Dreams: it's a card I've just discovered (call me noob if you wish). I've not tried it yet but if you can figure out what your metagame is, it can be played MD quite easily. At least I would recommend it to be played instead of Wipe Away in Tempo Thresh (or play 2 Rushing River, it works too).
Submerge: not really a bounce. It applies only to creatures but it's great in SB, as it can be played for nothing and it dodges Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. Actually, I'll describe a bit more what it can do when I compare anti-green creatures options for SB in blue (with Mind Harness and Threads of Disloyalty).
Cryptic Command: More than a bounce, iut's a swiss army knife. As a lot of other bounces its high CC is a strength at the same time being a weakness. It is immune to Chalice of the Void and probably counterbalance too. The high requirement in blue mana and it's high CC limits its use to very specific mono-U decks: Solidarity and MUC. Some people tried it in Tempo Thresh but as far as I understood the gap between 3CC and 4CC is huge in a deck less than 20 lands (and no mana accelerator).

DrJones
07-28-2009, 08:54 AM
I don't see Sunken Hope, Waterfront Bouncer, Time Elemental and Barrin, Master Wizard in there.

GreenOne
07-28-2009, 08:59 AM
Bounces are card disadvantage by nature. So, why are we so many to play them?
So many?
If you take out combo decks (AdN decks and Ichorid) and just some tempo decks (some UGr Thresh, some Merfolks) who the hell plays bounce?

I'd like a tempo based deck that runs loads of bounce. Temporal Spring in particular.

EDIT: you gotta add Submerge too.

C.P.
07-28-2009, 09:00 AM
I don't see Sunken Hope, Stormfront Bouncer, Time Elemental and Barrin, Master Wizard in there.

Do you want to see Zap and Ember Shot in Burn benchmark?

Skeggi
07-28-2009, 09:18 AM
I don't see Sunken Hope, Stormfront Bouncer, Time Elemental and Barrin, Master Wizard in there.
You could argue why Capsize isn't on that list, and even Capsize is a very questionable card to put on there...

Maveric78f
07-28-2009, 09:19 AM
So many?
If you take out combo decks (AdN decks and Ichorid) and just some tempo decks (some UGr Thresh, some Merfolks) who the hell plays bounce?

I'd like a tempo based deck that runs loads of bounce. Temporal Spring in particular.

EDIT: you gotta add Submerge too.
That's already a lot according to me. There are also heavy-control U decks.

Teompral Spring is bad seriously. Submerge is added. Not being an instant is really a big weakness.

DrJones
07-28-2009, 09:38 AM
Well, I was just enumerating some permanent sources of bounces that were used on lock/prison decks and in aggro decks. Perhaps cards like Tradewind Rider and Words of Wind are out of the scope of this study?

Also, I've seen boomerangs played with Isochron Scepter as a lock/tempo card (the only reason to use them, really), and he totally missed it.

Maveric78f
07-28-2009, 10:18 AM
Well, I was just enumerating some permanent sources of bounces that were used on lock/prison decks and in aggro decks. Perhaps cards like Tradewind Rider and Words of Wind are out of the scope of this study?

Also, I've seen boomerangs played with Isochron Scepter as a lock/tempo card (the only reason to use them, really), and he totally missed it.

Me too, I've seen incredible things, some I totally miss, some I definitely don't.

TR and WoW (and the poor scepter-bounce combo) are lock pieces, not bounces at all in my opinion.

Finn
07-28-2009, 01:10 PM
Submerge really is not bounce. There is no card disadvantage here. Also, I have toyed with the idea of Boomerang in Merfolk simply because it hits land. Ulimately I think it is not worth it, but there is something to the ability to set the opponent back a turn in a deck like that.

Tacosnape
07-28-2009, 01:49 PM
No love for Man-O-War? Bouncing Tombstalkers is the sex.

Maveric78f
07-28-2009, 01:56 PM
Complete. Feel free to comment, I'll update the content in the opening post. I thought about Manowar. I finally did not include it because nobody plays it except Aluren and me (but I make him have sex with Gilded Drake) and because it can target only creatures.

Skeggi
07-29-2009, 02:54 AM
No love for Man-O-War? Bouncing Tombstalkers is the sex.
Man-O-War is basically a Magus of the Bounce, so you don't really have carddisadvantage, but comes at sorcery speed, which sucks. Altough instant-speed bounce is less important since M10.

GreenOne
07-29-2009, 04:36 AM
Teompral Spring is bad seriously. Submerge is added. Not being an instant is really a big weakness.
Yeah, it is. But it's also a nice tempo tool without the card disadvantage attached to it. Oh, yeah, and it's a personal favourite of mine :tongue:

Just throwing out other ideas for bounce:
Repeal: could be added to something like Solidarity to deal with counterbalance and still be useful against aggro, bouncing nacatl and the like.
Aether Spellbomb: just because it's Trinket-able. Could deal with tombstalker for a bit of time, unlike EE.

deadlock
07-29-2009, 12:13 PM
Recoil and Repulse!

Nydaeli
07-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Cryptic Command deserves mention, even though it's slow and typically used for its other functions.

Maveric78f
07-29-2009, 12:55 PM
You want to see Clutch of the Undercity too?

I mean, I'm not a machine, I'll do cards only if it's relevant. I named boomerang only because it's the first bounce in history.

Edit: but Cryptic Command deserve to be mentionned because it's used in 2 decks (MUC and Solidarity).

Finn
07-29-2009, 01:06 PM
Actually Recoil was a pretty solid card in Standard discard-heavy decks back in the day. I wonder how it would do in Legacy considering the coolness of cmc 3 removal these days.

Nessaja
07-29-2009, 01:14 PM
Stingscourger is a solid 1 off in goblins, red bounce! It's all about the tempo gain with bouncing for me.