What will dethrone Tarmogoyf?

[Malchar]

I started the game pre-Invasion block. I remember when Spiritmonger came out, it was an absolute bomb. The p/t was actually bigger than the mana cost, it had no drawbacks, and it actually had good abilities! Next thing I knew this little thing called threshold had shown up. Werebear and Nimble Mongoose were basically the best creatures possible. A 4/4 for 2 that can also make mana, and a 3/3 for 1 that's basically unkillable outside of combat? Is it really possible to make better creatures? I thought no for a long time. Enter Tarmogoyf.

Tarmogoyf has completely outclassed Werebear. Some people don't even use Nimble Mongoose either. However, due to power creep and other issues, I'm sure that Tarmogoyf won't be the best (green) creature for the rest of eternity. What stats would a future creature have to have to be able to replace Tarmogoyf?

[beastman]

Tarmagoyf With Trample!!! Rawr!!!

[nitewolf9]

I think tribal creatures are starting to get pretty ridiculous, and being able to run 12 lords in a deck like Merfolk or Elves means your guys can quickly outclass or simply race Tarmogoyf. It seems Wizards is focusing a lot more on Tribal synergies to match the "power creep" of creatures.

Then again, I remember when Erg Raiders was played in Sui. Times just change.

[C.P.]

Given they do not make another design mistake, no single creature should outclass Tarmogoyf in terms of efficiency. It's like StP, it will stay for the years to come.

Other than that, I fail to see any other creature (barring tribal or fatties that are cheated in play) that will simply make the Goyf outdated.

[keys]

Plus, Goyf will only get bigger as more powerful and efficient Planeswalkers are printed.

[Malchar]

Plus, Goyf will only get bigger as more powerful and efficient Planeswalkers are printed.

Or new card types altogether...

[whienot]

What will dethrone Tarmogoyf?

Slivergoyf! Rawwwwwerrrrrrrr

[Wargoos]

What will dethrone the Goyf?

Roseanne's ass.
It's just bigger. And colorless.

[Volt]

Fail

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Slivergoyf
1G
Creature- Sliver Lhurgoyf
Slivers you control get +X/+X, where X is the number of card types amongst all graveyards.
(This card is blue)

[Volt]

(This card is blue)

lol

[Valtrix]

You forgot that the slivergoyf is a 0/1.

[Piceli89]

Answer to question:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2009/05/29/obstinate-familiar_1.jpg

[heroicraptor]

A ban.

[Arctic_Slicer]

A ban.

Quoted for truth. Tarmogoyf with continue to be the creature until it gets banned or something better gets printed.

[JeroenC]

Quoted for truth. Tarmogoyf with continue to be the creature until it gets banned or something better gets printed.

Nooooo... Really?:rolleyes:

[LostButSeeking]

Answer to question:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2009/05/29/obstinate-familiar_1.jpg

I bought a playset of those during Invasion/Odyssey block standard. Ran them in a phyrexian tyranny / Teferi's Puzzle Box deck. Don't diss them! I may have once won a game off of them!

[Nessaja]

Quoted for truth. Tarmogoyf with continue to be the creature until it gets banned or something better gets printed.
So basically.. what you're saying is that the currently best creature will remain the best creature untill he gets banned or something better gets printed :eek:

[MWest52117]

Given they do not make another design mistake, no single creature should outclass Tarmogoyf in terms of efficiency. It's like StP, it will stay for the years to come.

Other than that, I fail to see any other creature (barring tribal or fatties that are cheated in play) that will simply make the Goyf outdated.

Given the assumptions you've raised, I would agree with you. However, expecting R&D to not make another design mistake is a flawed assumption. Also, there is the potential for deliberate power creep in creatures that others have alluded to. Tarmogoyf will eventually be outclassed.

[Volt]

Given the assumptions you've raised, I would agree with you. However, expecting R&D to not make another design mistake is a flawed assumption. Also, there is the potential for deliberate power creep in creaturs that others have alluded to. Tarmogoyf will eventually be outclassed.

Swords to Plowshares hasn't been outclassed. Brainstorm hasn't been outclassed. I seriously doubt Tarmogoyf ever will be.

[Malchar]

Reversegoyf :g:
Creature - Lhurgoyf
~'s power is equal to the number of card types among cards that aren't in any graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1.
T: Remove a card in a graveyard from the game.
*/1+*

[Meister_Kai]

Here's a thought: what has been the "best creature in the game" at different points of magic history? The first is arguably Whirling Dervish, then (??), then Morphling, then Exalted Angel, then (?? took a break at magic from this point) then Tarmogoyf. What makes each successful creature better than the first?

[m03]

Here's a thought: what has been the "best creature in the game" at different points of magic history? The first is arguably Whirling Dervish, then (??), then Morphling, then Exalted Angel, then (?? took a break at magic from this point) then Tarmogoyf. What makes each successful creature better than the first?

Kird Ape, Juzam Djinn, Ernham Djinn, and Serendib Efreet were all considered slightly better than Whirling Dervish at the time that it was the hotness. I'd say Kird Ape was the defining creature of the 1994 meta.

[Nessaja]

I think Lackey was considered the best creature for a long time actually. But I guess tribal synergies don't count for this.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Psychatog and Wild Mongrel were the best creatures in the game when I got back into Magic around '03. I want to say that Exalted Angel and Piledriver were the next big hits. In fairness, Exalted Angel was a lot better with Mana Drain.

Of course, Worldgorger Dragon was also the shit at the time, but it wasn't really a creature. I would also say that Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon became the best creatures in control, supplanting Angel, sometime around '04.

As soon as Mirrodin came out, Goblin Welder and Metalworker started becoming really fucking good, and by extension Sundering Titan.

Somewhere around in here Phyrexian Negator, Nantuko Shade, and Hyppie at least started to get some respect, largely through the dedication of people like Anwar, although it wasn't until Red Death that that suite was taken very seriously.

Let's see. Kamigawa didn't change much, although the separating of the 1.5 and Vintage banned lists certainly did. Metalworker and Worlgorger Dragon were a lot worse once they got banned. Losing Recruiter hurt Goblins a lot, which actually ditched the card advantage engine initially to go Goblin-Sligh, with Akki Avalanchers/Raiders bringing in a bit of new presure. Survival decks were the rage for a while, with Wall of Roots probably as the best 4-of, followed by Quirion Ranger, Rofellos, Genesis, Anger, Squee, and Tradewind Rider. Landstill was pretty much the same, with less people playing Anger but DoJ and Dragon still being beatings. Eternal Witness gave several decks, but mostly Survival a shot in the arm.

Watchwolf was supposed to bring Zoo back, but didn't really do too much when Ravnica came out. This era saw more Goblins dominance. Neither Life from the Loam nor Ichorid-Dredge saw much play initially.

Pretty much the strongest creature was Lackey for at least two years. You had to be able to handle first turn Lackey at a real Legacy tournament. Obviously the other goblins played their part, but it's hard to separate any other one goblin out as being particularly more menacing; some decks didn't want to see the fast Warchief-Piledriver hands, while others worried about Ringleaders into Siege-Gangs.

Pretty much the strongest creature was Psychatog -> Worlgorger -> (bannings) -> Wall of Roots/Rofellos care package -> Decree of Justice -> Goblin Lackey -> Tarmogoyf.

[Atikin]

When they print a 5/5 for two with no drawbacks.

[beastman]

Rantings

I love how you can post like, three, well written articulate paragraphs in any given thread and not say a goddamned thing that pertains to the topic at hand. Bravo sir, bravo.

[heroicraptor]

I love how you can post like, three, well written articulate paragraphs in any given thread and not say a goddamned thing that pertains to the topic at hand. Bravo sir, bravo.

Learn to read.


Here's a thought: what has been the "best creature in the game" at different points of magic history? The first is arguably Whirling Dervish, then (??), then Morphling, then Exalted Angel, then (?? took a break at magic from this point) then Tarmogoyf. What makes each successful creature better than the first?


Psychatog ... Tarmogoyf.

[Jak]

As a pure, undercosted beater, nothing will surpass Goyf. He was a mistake and even with this power creep he won't be matched.

[Amon Amarth]

Swords to Plowshares hasn't been outclassed. Brainstorm hasn't been outclassed. I seriously doubt Tarmogoyf ever will be.

There has been a steady increase of the power level of creatures since Odyssey block. There is a good chance there will be new ground to break for powerful creatures. I could not say the same for creature removal or card drawing spells in the last 6 or 7 years.

To be fair, I highly doubt we will see something that is strictly better than Tarmogoyf in raw P/T comparison's. But that alone doesn't determine a card's power. New set mechanics are the wild card here. You only need to look as far as Threshold or Delve.

[Bigface]

Perhaps a black version of it.

[beastman]

A blue tarmagoyf with shapeshifting...

[ShadowOfTitans]

In the limited time I have played magic, best by block:

INV: Flametounge Kavu, Meddling Mage

OD: Psychatog, Wild Mongrel, Nantuko Shade

ONS: Eternal Dragon, Goblin Warchief and/or piledriver

MIR: Arcbound Ravager, Eternal Witness

CHK: Kokusho.

(insert long break here, from ravnica to just after alara reborn release)

LOR: Figure of Destiny, Kitchen Finks

ALA: Wild Nacatl, Wooly thoctar, Bloodbraid elf

Seems like a fair list off the top of my head.

[Maveric78f]

Dark Confidant is just the best creature and you did not mention it. Shame on you.

[MattH]

Whirling Dervish, wtf? The concensus was pretty much Hypnotic Specter, hands down, until sixth edition rules made Morphling the hotness (although there may have been a period in there where Jackal Pup took the lead for a bit). Morphling was top dog pretty much all the way until Tog ate the world, and Tog wasn't properly dislodged until...probably Tarmogoyf, although if you want to say Lackey deserves a spot in between I wouldn't argue. I'm also not sure about Confidant but it's in the running.


Learn to read.
Remember, the question is "best in game," not "best in 1.5/Legacy".

[Dan Turner]

goyf will be top dog until they print an artifact with his ability that cost 2 with flash

[ParkerLewis]

Quoted for truth. Tarmogoyf with continue to be the creature until it gets banned or something better gets printed.
So basically.. what you're saying is that the currently best creature will remain the best creature untill he gets banned or something better gets printed :eek:

Congratulations. You have successfully repeated what he just said.

Which really wasn't worth that much internet space in the first place.

And now we're still talking about it. Dammit.

[Media314r8]

Swords to Plowshares hasn't been outclassed. Brainstorm hasn't been outclassed. I seriously doubt Tarmogoyf ever will be.

This is really an irrelevant and poorly constructed comparison. Spells were the god-damns when Magic was first printed. Wizards realized the spells were too strong and the creatures too weak, and have always been leery of printing overpowered spells since then. Take a look at how many spells vs how many creatures have been on the banned list over the ages. Hell, there may be more banned LANDS than creatures. Wizards has been creeping the power of creatures while limiting the power of spells. I don't think swords is as overpowered as, say, ancestral recall or black lotus, but wizards will never, EVER print anything remotely as powerful as black lotus, arguably the best spell ever printed. Saying the same for any creature is foolish. Take a look at IBA's list - I'm sure when each of those super-efficient creatures was printed, many players must have said "they will NEVER make a creature better than X," well they did, and they will continue to. Attacking with creatures is what makes Magic fun, and creates interactive games that swing back and forth. An environment of turn one combos does not make for a fun or diverse meta, and Wizards will keep that from happening as much as development/bannings will allow. Thus, to continue selling packs, not every set can be a fifth edition, full of power 'fixing' - a nerfed set that attempts to lower power. People like opening new, powerful spells and creatures and excitedly replacing 'inferior' older creatures and spells in their pet decks, but it will always be safer to print increasingly more powerful creatures than it will be to do so with spells, as at least with creatures, they will be running into similarly powerful creatures on the other side of the table. The same is not true for fast combo decks, barring the removal of force and drain from the reserved list. (While infusing the format with more 'unfun,' efficient counterspells and control strategies.)

tldr: goyf will be outclassed eventually, as Wizards insatiable desire for money will drive power creep, and creeping dudes is safer and more fun for the consumer than creeping spells. (While also requiring less work in R&D.)

[Malchar]

Congratulations. You have successfully repeated what he just said.

Which really wasn't worth that much internet space in the first place.

And now we're still talking about it. Dammit.

He was (presumably) pointing out the fact that the original statement had absolutely no point. Certainly at least one of these posts must be a troll, but which one is it?

Anyway, this is to follow Media314r8's argument: Over the years, creatures have seen a great escalation of power and functionality. Spells, on the other hand, have generally been decreasing in power. Path to Exile, Shock, Ponder, Cancel, and others have slowly replaced their original counterparts. Granted, they're still powerful, but they're clearly becoming less powerful. Even Brainstorm could be considered a downgrade of the original Ancestral Recall. Furthermore, Brainstorm and even Ponder have rather recently been restricted in Vintage.

In deck-building, it's common to see the same old spells from many years ago. Creatures are generally replaced much more readily. Many decks utilize newer creatures but the same old spells due to the disparity in the power-creep.