[Sideboard Cards] Anti-Merfolk, Anti-Progenitus

[Bardo]

Just filling out the sideboard of a CT deck and wanted to get some feedback on strong sideboard cards that can play double-duty vs. Progenitus and Merfolk decks. After searching on Gatherer, the best I could find is Llawan, Cephalid Empress (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=27175) and Meekstone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=11398).

Vs. Merfolk, Llawan seems like a fucking beating. They either have the Daze or Force to stop it or kept you off the mana to play it, but it trumps their deck if you can stick it. Vs. Progenitus, well, you need to get it off before you're dead. Costs the same as Natural Order. Also, beats for 2.

Vs. Merfolk, Meekstone is infy easier to play than Llawan, but requires they have 1 or more lords (not unreasonable) and that you can catch them with their pants down. Problem is they can build up and alpha-strike if you can't put the game away. Vs. the big guy, you're still taking 10. Also, Grip. They're everywhere. On the other hand, Meekstone is useful vs. more opponents and can reasonably come in vs. other decks that aren't Merfolk.

So, Llawan seems like a good choice, given the above, though I thought I'd ask the community if I'm missing anything.

[nitewolf9]

What colors are you running? Damnation or Wrath seem to be good options if you are in white or black.

[Aggro_zombies]

Firespout is generally good against Merfolk and the Elves! versions of Progenitus.

[RoddyVR]

Dream Tides (4)
Enchantment
Creatures don't untap during their controllers' untap steps.

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player may choose any number of tapped nongreen creatures he or she controls and pay 2 for each creature chosen this way. If the player does, untap those creatures.


Should slow down merfolk, and will make progenitals only be able to attack once... Also stops goyf attacks... Affects you too though.

[Bardo]

What colors are you running? Damnation or Wrath seem to be good options if you are in white or black.

UGW/r. WW is a bit much to ask, esp. in the face of Wasteland and/or Stifle since the mana is pulled in so many other directions.

[Maveric78f]

CoP: blue.

[mossivo1986]

UGW/r. WW is a bit much to ask, esp. in the face of Wasteland and/or Stifle since the mana is pulled in so many other directions.

In my testing with rockout meekstone wasn't the correct answer he wanted to find. It didnt stop me from rolling him although it does nerf your dudes it still doesnt nerf the final swing.

Llawan in my testing has been excellent and your correct.

[Bryant Cook]

Vs. Merfolk, Llawan seems like a fucking beating. They either have the Daze or Force to stop it or kept you off the mana to play it, but it trumps their deck if you can stick it. Vs. Progenitus, well, you need to get it off before you're dead. Costs the same as Natural Order. Also, beats for 2.


One problem with this is Aether Vial. Is he strong enough to combat 2-3 creatures with a vial in play?

[Bardo]

One problem with this is Aether Vial. Is he strong enough to combat 2-3 creatures with a vial in play?

Shit. That's a really good point. Still, Llawan or not, an active Vial is going to suck, so it's sort of a wash.

[Blitzbold]

I think Llawan is female, as an aside. However, Vial or not, resolving her is still a huge tempo gain. Even with Vial in play -which won't enable your opponent to replay all creatures bounced because of the number of counter it carries- she buys time to find more solutions and enables you to deal with the fishies 1 for 1. I don't know whether she's worth the slot in the board, but her effect is nothing to be scoffed at.

[beastman]

I don't think you should be looking at this as a one card answer. The only answers (llawan and meekstone), are pretty weak, given that the cost of llawan is so high against a deck running daze force and cursecatcher. Most decks that run the natural order combo are trying to swarm you as well. So, I believe that a sweeper would be a better SB card, as it allows you to save a FoW for the natural order. I just don't think you should be looking for one card that answers both merfolk and progs.

[mossivo1986]

however if you had Llawan and Meekstone, heh heh? That should't be fun times for snake and boots folk players.

[Enigma]

I played Llawan in BANT Survival and it was good enough against Merfolk and any Progenitus deck.

Against Merfolks, you just need to get rid of Vial and it's a great lock. Even if they have active vial, it slows them so much that you can actually recover. (Mostly that Vial will probably at 3 and It will be possible to put only 6-8 of their creatures in play with it (4x Reejerey and 'x' Wake T.)

P-M

[DrJones]

Riptide on a stick.

[scrumdogg]

Llawan is fine and the amount an active Vial adds back is minimal as you should be beaucoup ahead (or at least have serious time to then catch back up). I have run Llawan in the side of both Faerie Stompy & Merfolk and been quite happy with her. Meekstone I haven't tried, but I'd want a deck running Academy Ruins and/or sweepers to backstop it as Grip is indeed everywhere (as it should be).

[Barook]

UGW/r.

Radiant Kavu (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/120.html)

[chokin]

Teferi's Moat. Slow and costly and vulnerable to Grip though.

Meddling Mage is good for naming Natural Order. If they're playing Survival, this isn't the best option though since they usually pack Shriekmaw and REB in the side. Against that Mono Green Chalice/NO deck it'd be good though.

[Goblin Snowman]

Radiant Kavu (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/120.html)

If you can cast something that takes RWG, and eats that much mana each turn, against Merfolk....

Also, doesn't solve the problem of them just getting lethal and Stifling the ability.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Spore Frog recursion also works--to a certain extent.

[majikal]

If you can sweep their board early enough, land a Tainted Aether for some lulz.

[morgan_coke]

Ghostly Prison and Wing Shards are both pretty good options in white.

[Barook]

@Bardo: What exactly are you planning to do with the cards? Stalling them only temporary? If so, Moment's Peace could be an option if you run enough copies.

[Skeggi]

So, Llawan seems like a good choice, given the above, though I thought I'd ask the community if I'm missing anything.
I've tried Llawan in Merfolk as anti-Merfolk tech. She sucks. Merfolk still plays creatures with Vial. What's worse: often they just steal it with Sower of Temptation. Llawan is bad against Merfolk.

[Nihil Credo]

In the unlikely case that you're running a CT deck with plenty of mana, a playset of Elephant Grass in the sideboard will both disable Progenitus and severely hinder tribal aggro.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Llawan seems interesting, but you run into two problems;

1) It doesn't stop Vial.

2) It doesn't stop Natural Order.

Meekstone seems like shit. It's only going to catch Merfolk if their pants are down, and only once. It's shit against their beefiest beater. And it doesn't stop elves.

So far, of the ideas listed I like Firespout and Llawan the best. My advice would be to just save Dazes and Forces for the Natural Order, and focus on beating Merfolk, which will probably be played more.

[keys]

Use Firespout and counter Natural Order.

Llawan is clunky and doesn't win you the game.

[frogboy]

I like Firespout against Merfolk. It's good against most Natural Order decks, too; kills all the outlets.

[Legacy]

there is always wash out.

or a more proactive solution, reins of power. well, at least against the progenitus player, because by the time they get it out they are usually low on life. But wash out hits both.

[parallax]

Tsabo's Decree.

[Bardo]

...Costs about 20 billion mana (vs. Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, Cursecatcher).

I'm surprised no one mention I just run NO/Progenitus in my CT-Top sideboard.

[DrJones]

Are you running Progenitus as a sideboard card to destroy opposing Progenitus due to the legendary rule, and still complain about Tsabo's Decree costing about 20 billion mana? :cool:

[LostButSeeking]

Are you running Progenitus as a sideboard card to destroy opposing Progenitus due to the legendary rule, and still complain about Tsabo's Decree costing about 20 billion mana? :cool:

NO only costs 2GG though. That's 5 000 000 000x less :tongue:

[Bardo]

Are you running Progenitus as a sideboard card to destroy opposing Progenitus due to the legendary rule, and still complain about Tsabo's Decree costing about 20 billion mana? :cool:

The difference between 6 and 4 mana is about a billion, yes. :)

[johanessen]

¿ Protective Sphere ?

[K_Rot_T]

Instead of Protevtive SPhere you also might use Forcefield, problem is, that the field can't stop Progenitus.....but on the other hand both just make you die slower, so Circle of Protection: Blue is already better for that. Also Sphere of Reason would be possible, but seems quite, well bad.
Great Sable Stag is quite nasty for the fishmen, but it doesnt affect Progenitus.
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage or Spinal Villain, but again only Fishies.
Nature's Wrath hast quite an affact, but 6 mana and its out....
Thelon's Curse slows down Merfolk, and if the Progenitus Player has no U, (Bird or other source) it looks good for you. Another non-untaper is An-Zerrin Ruins, on Fish or Hydra. Or you can use Arena of the Ancients vs Proge but with absolutely no effect against Merfolk :D
Or you play Humility or Moat, but they both have the ugly WW.

Oh and Gather Specimens is total fun vs Progenitus, but not more than fun i think.

[johanessen]

CoP Blue is too mana intensive vs merfolk.

[Media314r8]

Spore Frog recursion also works...

this + Corpse Dance FTW

/thread

[DrJones]

Extinction is a Tsabo's Decree for one less, and it can be an one-sided damnation against merfolks, progenitus, goblins, slivers and goyfs.

[Otter]

CoP: Blue is always an option. It might be pretty bad against Merfolk (read: LoA-enabled Mutavault bashing your face in), but it depends what your other cards are. If you just need to stall a little bit until the rest of your stuff comes online, it could work.

Really though, none of the options seem very good. It's definitely easiest to hose the green side of Progenitus and those answers just don't scratch Merfolk. Might be better to just clear out a bit more sideboard space and run some specific cards for each.