[Article] Practical Legacy - Interviewing an Ichorid Innovator

[nitewolf9]

Link. (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17816_Practical_Legacy_Interviewing_an_Ichorid_Innovator.html)

A pretty sweet interview article packed full of information. I enjoyed it, and not only because of my man crush on Damon.

[Parcher]

Article needs moar David Gearhart.

[beastman]

Nice article Anwar. You should do an article on survival soon.

[nitewolf9]

I think you should do an interview article on permanent waves as if you had dissociative identity disorder. Then at the end your 3rd personality could take over and start rambling on about some random, completely unrelated topic such as "how much celery really is too much in tuna salad?".

In fact, scratch "at the end" and replace with "right in the middle of it".

[goobafish]

This article is in serious need of a seductive picture of Damon.

In all seriousness, I really liked this article. I like interview articles in general, and this certainly was no exception.

[J.V.]

Excellent article Anwar, I really enjoyed it, please do more interview type articles in the future.

[Amon Amarth]

More Ichorid articles are never a bad thing! Good read.

[emidln]

@ the article

Vintage Ichorid brings in Chain of Vapor + Ingot Chewer/Emerald Charm/Ancient Grudge as a means to deal with Tormod's Crypt/Relic. This is usually 7-8 cards + 8 Chalice/Unmask on the play. The reason for this is that it forces an opponent to blow the crypt before they otherwise want to letting the Ichorid player get in a discard at end step via Bazaar and then the upkeep Bazaar and then Dredge per turn. Often this is enough to create a huge army of Zombie tokens, potentially with a giant Golgari Grave Troll to go with them.

[LostButSeeking]

Vintage Ichorid brings in . . . Emerald Charm as a means to deal with Tormod's Crypt/Relic

Emerald Charm G
Instant
Choose one - Untap target permanent; or destroy target global enchantment; or target creature loses flying until end of turn.
How does that help?

[socialite]

Emerald Charm G
Instant
Choose one - Untap target permanent; or destroy target global enchantment; or target creature loses flying until end of turn.
How does that help?

He meant for Leyline.

[Parcher]

@ the article

Vintage Ichorid brings in Chain of Vapor + Ingot Chewer/Emerald Charm/Ancient Grudge as a means to deal with Tormod's Crypt/Relic. This is usually 7-8 cards + 8 Chalice/Unmask on the play. The reason for this is that it forces an opponent to blow the crypt before they otherwise want to letting the Ichorid player get in a discard at end step via Bazaar and then the upkeep Bazaar and then Dredge per turn. Often this is enough to create a huge army of Zombie tokens, potentially with a giant Golgari Grave Troll to go with them.

Thanks for being your usual unconstructive, but incorrect self. None of those cards are for Crypt. Chalice is for Moxen, thaqt's why it's main deck.. Chain is for Leyline or Jailer. Emerald Charm is for Leyline or Bazaar. Grudge or Ingot Chewr (which few play) are for Stax, a rare bad match-up. If they are brought in against Crypt, it's only to suppliment other cards, or remove less useful ones from the main deck.

[emidln]

Thanks for being your usual unconstructive, but incorrect self. None of those cards are for Crypt. Chalice is for Moxen, thaqt's why it's main deck.. Chain is for Leyline or Jailer. Emerald Charm is for Leyline or Bazaar. Grudge or Ingot Chewr (which few play) are for Stax, a rare bad match-up. If they are brought in against Crypt, it's only to suppliment other cards, or remove less useful ones from the main deck.

Have you ever actually played Ichorid in Vintage? Tormod's Crypt alone isn't going to wreck you if you have a hand full of Dredgers and you are allowed to blindly activate Bazaar multiple times. Tormod's Crypt does set you back 2-3 turns against decks that will either have additional hate in the form of Pithing Needle/Wasteland (Stax, Fish) or a really fast clock (Tezzeret, TPS, ANT). Unanswered turn 1 on Tormod's Crypt played by a naive or inexperienced opponents will cost you, at minimum, 2 potential dredges and two bazaar activations, potentially 3 or more dredges if you can't discard another dredger to Bazaar after getting your first one RFG'd by crypt. If held back for a Narcomoeba trigger, because there is rarely anything worth crypting unless you were dumb (or lucky if you just draw 3-4 dredgers) enough to discard 2 dredgers in preparation for that turn 2 bazaar activation. Now if they do crypt on the Narcomoeba trigger, you're going to be starting the game on turn 3.5-4 because, barring a second bazaar, you're unable to activate bazaar to discard more fuel until turn 3, meaning you only get your dredge on draw per turn for 5-6 (maybe) and then whatever you get on turn 4. Keep in mind, that since they crypted you in response to a Narcomoeba trigger, you haven't been able the therapy/disrupt them at all outside whatever free disruption was in your opener.

Ingot Chewer (which has been seeing a ton of play recently because it's insane against Pithing Needle (advocated to Ichorid's detriment by Smmenen in every sideboard he posts), Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus) and Chain of Vapor come in for your Dread Returns (most of them anyway) and Dread Return targets because the cards are completely dead while being kept from making zombies until turns 3.5+ is really fucking awful. Chain or Ingot Chewer gives you a decent show at being able to endstep a Chain turn 2 or mainphase Chewer turn 2 with a Bazaar in play to dump dredgers or dredge+ichorid on the end step to go nuts on an upkeep bazaar activation.

[beastman]

I've played Ichorid in a few vintage tournaments, and from personal experience, I can tell you that an active crypt does nothing. Playing around it really only requires that you not be retarded and pitch all of your dredgers at once. They are almost always forced to crack it early(around turn 2), and after that, unless they have relevant hate, you just kill them. I never once sided in a card thinking "hey, this hoses crypt, I should play it". As parcher said, all of the artifact hate is for the stax decks, which can be a real pain in the ass.

[Parcher]

You know, it seems odd to me that anyone would feel the need to read an article centered around Legacy Ichorid, take one line from the entire article referencing Vintage Ichorid simply to emphasize a point, an spew a gigantic (and misguided) diatribe completely off-topic to try and refute this point. I would guess that this person has some severe self-confidence issues.

Well emidln, let me just say that I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that your ideas are constantly the object of ridicule.

I'm sorry that you must have nothing better to do than attempt to make yourself look smarter by creating an argument about Vintage in a Legacy forum. Especially since you're arguing the wrong point.

I'm sorry that no one wrote an article interviewing you, so it seems you have some insecure need to find fault with this one.

I'm sorry that enough players find value in my results to copy my decks, win with them, and report their results so that interest in an article like this was warranted.

I'm sorry that you've never actually won anything with your designs. Ever.

I'm sorry that your deck designs are not consistantly winning tournaments all over the world.

I'm sorry that a large group of the best pro players aren't playing your decks at Worlds.

I'm sorry that Doomsday sucks.

I'm sorry that no one will play Tinder Wall in TES.

I'm feeling sorry for the people on MTGSalvation who actually think you have a clue.

I'm sorry that I keep winning tournaments with my decks.

I'm sorry that my original ideas have become the standard for those decks in Legacy.

I'm sorry that you wrote that highly detailed post regarding how relevant Tormod's Crypt is in Vintage. And that unfortunately, none of it changes that facts of my original point. Which is that none of the mentioned cards are added to Vintage Ichorid decks strictly to combat Crypt.

(Oh, and by the way, using Menendian as an appeal to authority regarding Ichorid is probably not a good idea. Regardless of how much he knows about Vintage and how many times he has played against Ichorid, he doesn't pilot the deck himself. And ultimately, he is in constant contention with those that do over card selection.)

Here. Let's try to make you feel good about yourself.......

I've never played Vintage Ichorid, and know nothing whatsoever about it.

All statements regarding such in the aforementioned article were complete and utter falsehoods. All cards in the main deck and sideboard of all Vintage Ichorid decks are added for whatever reason Brandon says.

Doomsday is destroying the format, and I'm certain that bannings are imminent.

Brandon's penis is far, far larger than mine.

Great. Now we can be friends.

[socialite]

You know, it seems odd to me that anyone would feel the need to read an article centered around Legacy Ichorid, take one line from the entire article referencing Vintage Ichorid simply to emphasize a point, an spew a gigantic (and misguided) diatribe completely off-topic to try and refute this point. I would guess that this person has some severe self-confidence issues.

Well emidln, let me just say that I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that your ideas are constantly the object of ridicule.

I'm sorry that you must have nothing better to do than attempt to make yourself look smarter by creating an argument about Vintage in a Legacy forum. Especially since you're arguing the wrong point.

I'm sorry that no one wrote an article interviewing you, so it seems you have some insecure need to find fault with this one.

I'm sorry that enough players find value in my results to copy my decks, win with them, and report their results so that interest in an article like this was warranted.

I'm sorry that you've never actually won anything with your designs. Ever.

I'm sorry that your deck designs are not consistantly winning tournaments all over the world.

I'm sorry that a large group of the best pro players aren't playing your decks at Worlds.

I'm sorry that Doomsday sucks.

I'm sorry that no one will play Tinder Wall in TES.

I'm feeling sorry for the people on MTGSalvation who actually think you have a clue.

I'm sorry that I keep winning tournaments with my decks.

I'm sorry that my original ideas have become the standard for those decks in Legacy.

I'm sorry that you wrote that highly detailed post regarding how relevant Tormod's Crypt is in Vintage. And that unfortunately, none of it changes that facts of my original point. Which is that none of the mentioned cards are added to Vintage Ichorid decks strictly to combat Crypt.

(Oh, and by the way, using Menendian as an appeal to authority regarding Ichorid is probably not a good idea. Regardless of how much he knows about Vintage and how many times he has played against Ichorid, he doesn't pilot the deck himself. And ultimately, he is in constant contention with those that do over card selection.)

Here. Let's try to make you feel good about yourself.......

I've never played Vintage Ichorid, and know nothing whatsoever about it.

All statements regarding such in the aforementioned article were complete and utter falsehoods. All cards in the main deck and sideboard of all Vintage Ichorid decks are added for whatever reason Brandon says.

Doomsday is destroying the format, and I'm certain that bannings are imminent.

Brandon's penis is far, far larger than mine.

Great. Now we can be friends.

I am sorry I don't know you IRL because I would love to have a beer with you.

[beastman]

You know, it seems odd to me that anyone would feel the need to read an article centered around Legacy Ichorid, take one line from the entire article referencing Vintage Ichorid simply to emphasize a point, an spew a gigantic (and misguided) diatribe completely off-topic to try and refute this point. I would guess that this person has some severe self-confidence issues.

Well emidln, let me just say that I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that your ideas are constantly the object of ridicule.

I'm sorry that you must have nothing better to do than attempt to make yourself look smarter by creating an argument about Vintage in a Legacy forum. Especially since you're arguing the wrong point.

I'm sorry that no one wrote an article interviewing you, so it seems you have some insecure need to find fault with this one.

I'm sorry that enough players find value in my results to copy my decks, win with them, and report their results so that interest in an article like this was warranted.

I'm sorry that you've never actually won anything with your designs. Ever.

I'm sorry that your deck designs are not consistantly winning tournaments all over the world.

I'm sorry that a large group of the best pro players aren't playing your decks at Worlds.

I'm sorry that Doomsday sucks.

I'm sorry that no one will play Tinder Wall in TES.

I'm feeling sorry for the people on MTGSalvation who actually think you have a clue.

I'm sorry that I keep winning tournaments with my decks.

I'm sorry that my original ideas have become the standard for those decks in Legacy.

I'm sorry that you wrote that highly detailed post regarding how relevant Tormod's Crypt is in Vintage. And that unfortunately, none of it changes that facts of my original point. Which is that none of the mentioned cards are added to Vintage Ichorid decks strictly to combat Crypt.

(Oh, and by the way, using Menendian as an appeal to authority regarding Ichorid is probably not a good idea. Regardless of how much he knows about Vintage and how many times he has played against Ichorid, he doesn't pilot the deck himself. And ultimately, he is in constant contention with those that do over card selection.)

Here. Let's try to make you feel good about yourself.......

I've never played Vintage Ichorid, and know nothing whatsoever about it.

All statements regarding such in the aforementioned article were complete and utter falsehoods. All cards in the main deck and sideboard of all Vintage Ichorid decks are added for whatever reason Brandon says.

Doomsday is destroying the format, and I'm certain that bannings are imminent.

Brandon's penis is far, far larger than mine.

Great. Now we can be friends.


Your heart is gonna explode from stress one of these days. You are such an angry guy.

[Wargoos]

Your heart is gonna explode from stress one of these days. You are such an angry guy.

Nah, he's just showing healthy ambition and lot's of passion.
I kinda like that.
Would love to see him on my basketball team.

[beastman]

If you ever meet him, you will realize that he is very, very angry. Always. And he cant beat me with Ichorid when I play survival.:cool:

[emidln]

Did you consider that the posts aren't in regards to you but in regards to the Legacy deck you play and were talking about in the article? Probably not, but let's dig a little deeper. In the article, in a question about misconceptions on Ichorid you present an argument about Tormod's Crypt's relevancy (see below). Then, you contend that the speed of Ichorid, which translates to Legacy quite well as pretty much anyone can see, is the reason that Tormod's Crypt is irrelevant in not only Vintage, but Legacy as well.


For instance, in Type I, Tormod's Crypt is a common card in as many or more sideboards than it is in Legacy due to the broken recursion in that format. Do you know how many cards Vintage Ichorid decks bring in to answer Tormod’s Crypt? Zero. None. Do you know why? It isn't a relevant card. Ichorid is so much faster in both initial speed, and recovery, that the result of an activated Crypt is not worth a sideboard slot.

Let's cut this up further, in case people who read the article (or were quoted in the article), forgot what they said and keep repeating things that weren't written like a parrot.


Do you know how many cards Vintage Ichorid decks bring in to answer Tormod’s Crypt?

This question, to me and those who I've asked to explain it to me, appears to be asking how many cards a Vintage Ichorid player takes out of their sideboard and brings in against an opponent who is known to have Tormod's Crypt (say just 4x Tormod's Crypt + whatever maindeck they had). These cards don't have to read:

0
Instant
This spell can't be countered by spells or abilities. This card cannot be discarded from your hand. Tell Tormod's Crypt to GTFO and punch the opponent in the junk.

Do you know what Vintage Ichorid players actually sideboard against Tormod's Crypt? -Fatestitchers/FKZ/Cephalid Sage/Dread Returns + Chain of Vapor and then + whatever secondary artifact removal they happen to be playing (Ingot Chewer/Oxidize/Ancient Grudge/etc) and -Chalice of the Void on the draw because it's worthless.

As I've stated before, the recovery speed on Tormod's Crypt is going to be 1.5-2 turns putting you between turns 3-4 assuming your hand was average with two dredgers. This puts you really far behind against opponents who have a breadth of tutors not only for more Tormod's Crypts, but also nasty maindeck stuff like Wasteland (from Fish, G/W, Stax and Shop Aggro), creatures that sac themselves (from Fish and G/W), Sphere of Resistance/Powder Keg/EE/(insert random stax/shop aggro maindeck slot that fucks with you), and Time Vault/Voltaic Key or Yawgmoth's Will just ending the game. The normal Ichorid solution to the rest of the opponents not actually being all that slow or interactive is to Therapy them. You can't do this since you never actually managed to get a Narcomoeba, Ichorid, or Zombie into play at the same time that you had priority on your main phase.

Just so we're clear if you lost me in that last paragraph, your recovery speed isn't fast. In fact, that the single Tormod's Crypt that you, Parcher (as opposed to the generic you of an Ichorid player I've been using in the preceding paragraphs), personally don't believe is worth boarding against probably lost you the game (baring you drawing a second bazaar) unless your opponent was wearing a helmet, shouting "Durr!", and beating their helmet-encased skull into the wall next you. Now that we have that out of the way, let's move on to the contention this all leads in to.


In Legacy we lack Bazaar of Baghdad as a less-disruptable discard outlet, but the rest remains the same. If you have not learned to either play around or power straight through a Crypt or Relic of Progenitus, you need more practice with the deck. It’s quite easy to force most control decks into a situation where they need to activate the Crypt and then to immediately dredge enough of your deck to win

Gasp, I think you might actually be wrong about this too, although we probably don't disagree as much as you'd like. I think Legacy Ichorid is better at playing around hate than Vintage Ichorid (which I believe does so quite poorly if you use your sideboarding strategy of "hope my opponent is dumb" or hope to draw 2 out of 4 Bazaars). The presence of land, combined with faster and more plentiful discard outlets makes it a lot easier to keep a hand with multiple dredgers + 1-2 discard outlets and ignore a singleton Crypt/Relic. The issue is tricker in Legacy though because your discard outlets aren't always going to be free from assault due to opponents sometimes playing counterspells (even Daze is usually a hard counter) on your blue discard or removal for your PImps/TT. Props for Gargadon, although I do remember seeing that in Extended Ichorid lists, it does actually solve a lot of problems your discard outlets might otherwise face.

The point remains that a slow lumbering control deck (like UWx Landstill) probably isn't going to beat you with a single Crypt activation. A deck with any pressure at all, say Tempo Thresh, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, Eva Green, essentially any other deck that would be inclined to play graveyard hate, specifically Relic/Crypt, against you can easily have very minor outlying disruption that their Crypt slowed you down. From your own recent report you seem to lose to Elves if your opponent had something as irrelevant as Tormod's Crypt.

As far as the rest of that, I'll avoid most of it, but your analysis of my Menendian comment is way far off. I'm not referencing lists that Menendian has presented for Ichorid. Instead, I'm talking about the variety of hate that he always puts in the sideboards of his Tezzeret, G/W Beatings, TPS, modern Gro, etc lists that people copy and emulate to no end (simply because he's the most visible Vintage authority). The point was that he emphasizes cards Pithing Needle, which have in turn, made things like Ingot Chewer (as a secondary artifact hate behind Chain of Vapor) necessary where it wasn't before. Ingot Chewer is only played over Oxidize/Ancient Grudge because it's weird interaction slightly improves its utility in the Stax matchup. If stax alone (without Needle) was the cause of concern, no artifact hate at all would be boarded at all because Ichorid can beat them on Zombies from Ichorids even with multiple 2spheres in play.

[Parcher]

I don't want to answer you. Because when you question me you are really saying that I don't have the least idea what I am doing, that I am nothing but an incompetent, that I am a fool.

My results speak for themselves. I think everyone is bored with questioning yours.

If you want to take this thread in a Legacy forum, not even about Legacy Ichorid, but about an interview, as some platform to foist yourself as some Vintage pundit, I'll not step again on your inferiority complex.

Please go on.

[nitewolf9]

http://www.appletreeblog.com/wp-content/2007/08/man-on-fire.jpg

[Aleksandr]

I like this thread. Namely the part with the helmeted retard.

[Tacosnape]

I don't want to answer you. Because when you question me you are really saying that I don't have the least idea what I am doing, that I am nothing but an incompetent, that I am a fool.

How do -you- of all the people ever to fall out of a vagina get to call anyone on this?

[Parcher]

How do -you- of all the people ever to fall out of a vagina get to call anyone on this?


Because "Dragon Stompy" was around before "Empty The Slogger," if you check your history, so apparently originality doesn't amount to shit.

[Amon Amarth]

...damn. And I thought my nerd raging was intense.

[Pulp_Fiction]

You know, it seems odd to me that anyone would feel the need to read an article centered around Legacy Ichorid, take one line from the entire article referencing Vintage Ichorid simply to emphasize a point, an spew a gigantic (and misguided) diatribe completely off-topic to try and refute this point. I would guess that this person has some severe self-confidence issues.

Well emidln, let me just say that I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that your ideas are constantly the object of ridicule.

I'm sorry that you must have nothing better to do than attempt to make yourself look smarter by creating an argument about Vintage in a Legacy forum. Especially since you're arguing the wrong point.

I'm sorry that no one wrote an article interviewing you, so it seems you have some insecure need to find fault with this one.

I'm sorry that enough players find value in my results to copy my decks, win with them, and report their results so that interest in an article like this was warranted.

I'm sorry that you've never actually won anything with your designs. Ever.

I'm sorry that your deck designs are not consistantly winning tournaments all over the world.

I'm sorry that a large group of the best pro players aren't playing your decks at Worlds.

I'm sorry that Doomsday sucks.

I'm sorry that no one will play Tinder Wall in TES.

I'm feeling sorry for the people on MTGSalvation who actually think you have a clue.

I'm sorry that I keep winning tournaments with my decks.

I'm sorry that my original ideas have become the standard for those decks in Legacy.

I'm sorry that you wrote that highly detailed post regarding how relevant Tormod's Crypt is in Vintage. And that unfortunately, none of it changes that facts of my original point. Which is that none of the mentioned cards are added to Vintage Ichorid decks strictly to combat Crypt.

(Oh, and by the way, using Menendian as an appeal to authority regarding Ichorid is probably not a good idea. Regardless of how much he knows about Vintage and how many times he has played against Ichorid, he doesn't pilot the deck himself. And ultimately, he is in constant contention with those that do over card selection.)

Here. Let's try to make you feel good about yourself.......

I've never played Vintage Ichorid, and know nothing whatsoever about it.

All statements regarding such in the aforementioned article were complete and utter falsehoods. All cards in the main deck and sideboard of all Vintage Ichorid decks are added for whatever reason Brandon says.

Doomsday is destroying the format, and I'm certain that bannings are imminent.

Brandon's penis is far, far larger than mine.

Great. Now we can be friends.

Dude, you really need to grab onto a pair of boobs that are attached to a female. Its great, I promise.

[DragoFireheart]

Popcorn anyone?

No really, this is hilarious. If the cynical sarcasm that was emitting from Parcher was instead radiation, the entire planet of Earth would be a mutanted, diseased wasteland of Ninja Turtles and Super Mutants.

[Parcher]

Dude, you really need to grab onto a pair of boobs that are attached to a female. Its great, I promise.

BOOBS!!??

FEMALE??!!!

EEEEEWWW!! That's fucking gross. Man-boobs are about as much as I can stomach.


[Alternative Response]: I grabbed your mom's boobs after she untucked them from her belt. It wasn't a pleasant experience, and tell her she still owes me that fifty bucks.

[Wargoos]

Hah, always so reasonable that parcher.

[Bardo]

What the shit is this?

[TOGITwill]

Gold, Jerry. GOLD.

[beastman]

What the shit is this?

Damon has taken on the responsibilit of fighting the world. Its fun.

[Wargoos]

Odds are bad, but I would go with Parcher.
He has lots of Zombie tokens.

[lorddotm]

Is there anyway to sticky this thread, as it has to be one of the best threads on The Source.

[eq.firemind]

Is there anyway to sticky this thread, as it has to be one of the best threads on The Source.
+1
Makes me stop rewatching Fedor Emelianenko smashing people and switch to Parcher's Boilin 'n' Steaming Show from now on!

[Skeggi]

Parcher is the most annoying person on this forum. He's always right. God I hate that about him.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I was thinking of saying "we are discussing an interview on a website dedicated to a nerd game, on an internetforum dedicated to a small part of this game full of nerds. Get real." But reading the thread is so much more fun.

Continue, please.

[lorddotm]

I was thinking of saying "we are discussing an interview on a website dedicated to a nerd game, on an internetforum dedicated to a small part of this game full of nerds. Get real." But reading the thread is so much more fun.

Continue, please.

I know right!

In the interest of the thread.

emidln, Parcher call you a bitch.