Natural Order Rock

[MTG-Fan]

After some experimenting, I think I've found the perfect shell for Natural Order/Progenitus combo:


6 x Forest
4 x Bayou
4 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Swamp
2 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Dryad Arbor

4 x Eternal Witness
4 x Kitchen Finks
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Wall of Roots
4 x Birds of Paradise
1 x Progenitus

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Natural Order
3 x Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 4 x Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 x Krosan Grip
SB: 3 x Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 x Duress
SB: 2 x Extirpate
SB: 1 x Empyrial Archangel


Despite the name, it sort of functions more like a combo deck than a traditional rock deck. You stall out with Wall of Roots, Finks, and Goyf until you can Natural Order for the win. Use Therapy and Thoughtseize to disrupt your opponent so that you can ensure that NO resolves.

If you can't find/resolve NO, Goyf and Finks beat to secure the victory. Kind of simple, really, but very effective. Honestly, it's kind of hard to lose with this list.

[Goblin Snowman]

Couple of points;

Why did you choose to make this only G/B? If you can find room for 9 Basic Land, it's likely you would be able to splash another color.

You have no removal outside of the fairly slow Maelstrom Pulse. Have you considered running Smother/Edicts, or even something like Pernicious Deed?

Your board looks a bit weird. 2x Extripate isn't going to show up enough of the time to remove specific cards such as LftL. Are you running it purely to supplement Leyline? If so, wouldn't Crypt or even Relic be better?

The deck looks fairly generic/unpolished. Why do you say that this is the perfect shell for NO/Pro?

Throwing up explanations for cards, as well as some testing results would be appreciated.

[MTG-Fan]

- I was running Smother, but with so much mana accel in the deck, Pulse comes out just as fast and hits more targets and sometimes 2-for-1s.

- Why splash for anything else? What other color could you possibly want in this?

- You're right about the sideboard being unpolished. How would you change it?

- Pernicious Deed is good, but anti-synergistic with Walls/Goyf/Birds.

[Darksteel]

Have you tested splashing white for Vindicate and StP?

I ran a B/g/w Rock deck with the Progenitus combo with success at a local tournament last weekend. It was heavily based off of this list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27800).

Beat Dragon Stompy, Belcher, and almost beat CounterTop, but time ran out. :tongue:

[MTG-Fan]

Vindicate isn't really much better than Pulse.

StP is nice, but in testing I've found that Pulse (and recurring with Witness) is really all you need.

[Michael Keller]

Vindicate isn't really much better than Pulse.

StP is nice, but in testing I've found that Pulse (and recurring with Witness) is really all you need.

Unless you post...

1. A well thought-out match-up analysis.
2. The theory behind your card selection.
3. The way your deck is played.
4. Legitimate play-testing results.
5. Ideas to improve off the skeleton list.
6. Sideboard strategies.
7. New cards to consider for improvement.

...no one will take this seriously. It's like you tossed a list together and posted it without putting hardly any thought into it. We need factual information and more to work with so we can try and make it better, not preposterous claims like:


Honestly, it's kind of hard to lose with this list.

[MTG-Fan]

flame


I agreed to stay out of your thread, I hope you do the same for me.

[TOGITwill]

Uh, that wasn't a flame as far as I can tell. I agree with all of those points. Just saying its hard to lose with a deck and its "the perfect shell" doesn't legitimize a list. Seeing your reasoning and analysis would provide some sort of cash value to the proverbial check you just wrote.

[keys]

I would probably run Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Roots for better synergy with sacrifice effects/recursion.

Reminds me of Secret Force.

[beastman]

Unless you post...

1. A well thought-out match-up analysis.
2. The theory behind your card selection.
3. The way your deck is played.
4. Legitimate play-testing results.
5. Ideas to improve off the skeleton list.
6. Sideboard strategies.
7. New cards to consider for improvement.

...no one will take this seriously. It's like you tossed a list together and posted it without putting hardly any thought into it. We need factual information and more to work with so we can try and make it better, not preposterous claims like:

Payback Mike? You're better than that.:tongue:

Honestly, this list looks like you did throw it together overnight and posted it and said "play this, it's teh goods". I would strongly consider splasing white, or at least adding deed and more spot removal. Merfolk will out tempo this deck until your ass hurts, and lanstill would be salivating at the mouth to play against a deck like this.

[MTG-Fan]

Merfolk runs into walls until you get Natural Order with discard backup... Landstill dies to 8 maindeck discard effects, basically.

Also: this deck is based on a list that took 17th place at Grand Prix: Chicago, losing a 13th round match to Nassif's CounterTop deck only because the guy drew his Progenitus:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=27708

referenced in the article:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17200_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_Eternal_Deep_Dish.html

all the way at the bottom.

I saw it, liked it alot, playtested it, and it has been just insane for me in playtesting. I just changed the Smother to Pulse because it hits more stuff, and added Tarmogoyf as an aggro B plan, and changed the sideboard a bit.

I think the guy's deck clearly has lots of potential, based on its performance at GP:Chicago, and my playtesting has reflected that. So I think it deserves some attention on the forums.

[Barook]

Merfolk runs into walls until you get Natural Order with discard backup... Landstill dies to 8 maindeck discard effects, basically.

Also: this deck is based on a list that took 17th place at Grand Prix: Chicago, losing a 13th round match to Nassif's CounterTop deck only because the guy drew his Progenitus:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=27708

referenced in the article:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17200_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_Eternal_Deep_Dish.html

all the way at the bottom.

I saw it, liked it alot, playtested it, and it has been just insane for me in playtesting. I just changed the Smother to Pulse because it hits more stuff, and added Tarmogoyf as an aggro B plan, and changed the sideboard a bit.

I think the guy's deck clearly has lots of potential, based on its performance at GP:Chicago, and my playtesting has reflected that. So I think it deserves some attention on the forums.
Accidentally, I was working on such a list, too - wow, this one looks great (except for the lack of Tarmogoyf as back-up plan).

[Patrunkenphat7]

Vindicate isn't really much better than Pulse.

StP is nice, but in testing I've found that Pulse (and recurring with Witness) is really all you need.

First of all, I gotta say that this is completely false. I play Eva Green and I have tested extensively with Vindicate and a fair amount with Pulse. I use Vindicate 35% of the time to destroy a land. Yes this is a different deck than Eva Green, but regardless I believe that Vindicate is superior.

The one thing that jumps out at me is SDT. It's a good card yes, but I would probably change that slot to removal considering you don't run Bob to get the full effect out of SDT.

The changes I would make to your list would be:
Splash white (you can figure out the manabase)
-3 SDT, -4 Pulse, +4 STP, +3 Vindicate

Maybe you could put a couple Dorans in there, I dunno that'd be a personal call.

If you don't splash white though you might wanna consider 4 Wasteland and going up to 21 land. Just a thought.

[MTG-Fan]

First of all, I gotta say that this is completely false. I play Eva Green and I have tested extensively with Vindicate and a fair amount with Pulse. I use Vindicate 35% of the time to destroy a land. Yes this is a different deck than Eva Green, but regardless I believe that Vindicate is superior.


Sure if you run Sinkholes and Wastelands, you want to use Vindicate to do further LD, but this deck is not concerned with LD, otherwise it would be running Sinkholes and Wastelands, see? So there is no reason to use Vindicate.



The one thing that jumps out at me is SDT. It's a good card yes, but I would probably change that slot to removal considering you don't run Bob to get the full effect out of SDT.


SDT helps you find NO faster, which is the #1 goal of the deck.


Why do you think the guy who played this deck to 17th place finish at GP:Chicago didn't splash white?

[Patrunkenphat7]

Sure if you run Sinkholes and Wastelands, you want to use Vindicate to do further LD, but this deck is not concerned with LD, otherwise it would be running Sinkholes and Wastelands, see? So there is no reason to use Vindicate.



SDT helps you find NO faster, which is the #1 goal of the deck.


Why do you think the guy who played this deck to 17th place finish at GP:Chicago didn't splash white?

Well he also didn't run Pulse, so that doesn't really mean anything about Vindicate being not as good for him. One guy's list also doesn't mean that much, there are millions of Rock lists that run white, so I don't see your deck different in that respect even though it has NO. I think STP would be a great addition to your deck, and I just see no reason to not splash white for it. And regardless of how much better Vindicate is in your deck, it's still better, so you could run those while you're at it.

[eq.firemind]

The deck needs some kind of answer to turn 1 Goblin Lackey...
And that's the main reason to splash :w: for Swords to Plowshares.

[Barook]

I played a few test games on MWS with the list MTG-Fan posted, except:

-2 SDT, -1 Wall of Blossoms, -1 Kitchen Finks, -3 Smother
+4 Tarmogoyf, +3 Putrefy

Among other things, I played against 2x Death Guy and 1x Goblins.

- Goblins raped me. Oh well, 2x Goblin Lackey two times in a row at the beginning of the game was way too much to handle for me. The removal suit seems somewhat ill-suited, but
- I don't think splashing White for Stp and other goodies isn't a solution either. I felt quite comfortable while sitting on many basics. Decent mana disruption would ruin your day.
- Goyf is a house (as always) and an absolutely necessary Plan B. It draws attention from your opponent and puts pressure on them. Just relying on SDT to find NO against heavy disruption looks like a bad plan.

[MTG-Fan]

I don't see how Goblins "rapes" you with so many blockers MD, and then Jitte from the SB.

[MTG-Fan]

Well he also didn't run Pulse, so that doesn't really mean anything about Vindicate being not as good for him. One guy's list also doesn't mean that much, there are millions of Rock lists that run white, so I don't see your deck different in that respect even though it has NO. I think STP would be a great addition to your deck, and I just see no reason to not splash white for it. And regardless of how much better Vindicate is in your deck, it's still better, so you could run those while you're at it.

The only reason EVER to run Vindicate over something like Pulse is because it can hit lands. And this deck doesn't really care about destroying lands. So why bother with it?

[Barook]

I don't see how Goblins "rapes" you with so many blockers MD, and then Jitte from the SB.

Ok, my bad, I was talking about the list from SCG you linked, so no Jitte.

[kkoie]

If SDT is included purely to speed up the digging for NO, then I wonder if you should increase the number of fetches to 8, so that you will have more shuffling effects.

Also, have you considered running choke in the sideboard?

[MTG-Fan]

Most recent testing list:

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [MM] Swamp (3)
4 [MM] Forest (1)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [CFX] Progenitus
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FNM] Elves of Deep Shadow

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [FNM] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed


Putting Wastelands in has improved alot of matchups. Elves of Deep Shadow are better than Birds because they can carry a Jitte.

I think I've only lost like 2-3 matches out of 15+ that I've played the past 2 days on MWS. One was to Goblins, because my BoP couldn't do damage with the Jitte I had boarded in, so that's why I subbed it out for the Elves.

Also, Wall of Roots is absolutely amazing vs. the Legacy metagame. Blocks Mongoose all day long, blocks Goyf early in the game, blocks Mutas and Factories all day long, and then accelerates all of your spells to boot, not to mention being sacrificial fodder for NO when you've depleted its mana source. Just incredible.

[scrumdogg]

I would probably run Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Roots for better synergy with sacrifice effects/recursion.

Reminds me of Secret Force.

Wall of Roots both blocks (see also slows the opponent & dodges damage based removal) and accelerates your mana. I lost a game 3 Sunday to Turn 2 Wall of Roots, Turn 3 Natural Order -> Progenitus. And in the other two games, the turns of damage that Wall shrugged off without dying made the difference in one of them.

[BreathWeapon]

Blue for Intuition, considered that?

[lavafrogg]

Can't birds with a jitte now attack for counters?

[KrzyMoose]

Can't birds with a jitte now attack for counters?

No. It's always been that way.

If you think it changed with M10...Did you actually read the changes?

[lavafrogg]

I know how it worked, I've read the changes, I wasn't confused in the slightest or think that I read that birds now did "0" combat damage. That's why I didn't ask the question.

[baghdadbob]

I really like the idea of running Progenitals combo. I feel that the strongest suit for it would be in U/W/G giving you mana accel and plenty of control. I also like the black splash as well but prefer white for chant effects/swords/etc... Anywho this what my list would look like if I was running this.

Progenitals
By: Baghdad Bob

Combo
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitals

Draw
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

Accel
4x Noble Heirarch

Control
4x Swords to Man Bear Pig
3x Wrath of God
4x Force of Bill
4x Daze
4x Mana Leak
4x Orim's Chant

Thoughts...
Goyf?
Alt win cons?
Mystical tutors to search for Natural Order?

I'm not positive what I would run s/b. I think I might run more threats...
All in all I want the deck to work but I feel that rock is not the way to go. Instead I believe I would play it in a control suite.

[beastman]

Olny 4 cretures 4 NO is teh failez!

[baghdadbob]

1 Progenitus seems like good game to me...

[Honoluluicecaps]

You have to sac a creature to use Natural Order and you're only running 4 creatures other than Progenitus. That seems suboptimal to say the least

[Droxis]

I've been trying to build this deck and this is what I got:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [VI] Natural Order
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

In the event I find leaning towards easier/faster NO-genitus instead of it just being tagged onto the AggroRock, I'll remove a few things to make sure it goes out easier. This:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [VI] Natural Order

[B]edit: Or I can go with both seize and elves


// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

I figure that NO-genitus is really good, but AggroRock has enough facerolling beaters and plenty of removal to function well on it's own with NO-genitus stealing wins when it does come down. I'm just unsure of whether or not I like thoughtseize or mana elves more. I'm thinking seize (with duress on the side) will work better in a control environment, while mana elves better in an aggro environment.

Thoughts?

[baghdadbob]

Is polymorph better then natural order?

[morgan_coke]

Droxis,

Those are some of the beat NO lists I've ever seen. Only quibbles I have with them are pretty minor. The manabase could probably lose a few duals for some Nantuko Monasteries and/or Wastelands. You could also use some kind of draw or library manipulation. Top, Whisper, and Harmonize seem like your best bets there, though I admit I have no idea what you should cut for them.

Bob,

no, it's not.

[Droxis]

Droxis,

Those are some of the beat NO lists I've ever seen. Only quibbles I have with them are pretty minor. The manabase could probably lose a few duals for some Nantuko Monasteries and/or Wastelands. You could also use some kind of draw or library manipulation. Top, Whisper, and Harmonize seem like your best bets there, though I admit I have no idea what you should cut for them.

Getting the right colored mana is already a trial, I don't know if adding wastelands/monasteries is going to help with that. I do agree it's a bit heavy on the non-basics, but that comes with the three color territory and the best method I got to dealing with that is some mana elves and basics.

As far as deck manipulation goes I really don't know what I'd take out. I always likened deck manipulation for The Rock and not so much Aggrorock, since I want everything I play to shift power around.


Is polymorph better then natural order?

Nah. It's a completely different card, honestly. Unlike Natural Order, Polymorph puts into play the first creature you reveal. Since you need creatures for it to work, it's most likely going to get snagged on something that is not a Progenitus. Plus, it's blue, which means it doesn't usually benefit from the acceleration of green (in my case, elves). What it -does- have going for it is that you can do it to an enemy creature, in hopes the one they reveal and put into play is less of a threat.

Order cuts through all that crap by nuking one of your green creatures and spitting Progenitus out.

[MTG-Fan]

I think he was trolling when he suggested Polymorph, but if it isn't obvious to everyone already, it's an abysmal alternative to NO that should never see play anywhere.

Not only for the reasons listed above, but most importantly because it needs to target a creature, and that creature can be StP'd/Bolted in response to the Polymorph, unlike NO which lets you sacrifice the creature.

[sauce]

Have you tested splashing white for Vindicate and StP?

I ran a B/g/w Rock deck with the Progenitus combo with success at a local tournament last weekend. It was heavily based off of this list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27800).

Beat Dragon Stompy, Belcher, and almost beat CounterTop, but time ran out. :tongue:

that list is amazing.

[MMogg]

After reading this thread, I was wondering if anyone around here has considered making UG natural order? I've been playing around with trying to come up with a deck list, but you'll have to forgive me, I've been away from Magic for about 6 years, so I'm a bit reluctant to post it, not to mention this is a rock thread not a UG thread. Anyway, has anyone tried?

[AngryTroll]

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Savannah
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
2 [IN] Forest (3)
2 [US] Plains (4)
4 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize



I like this list a lot. Doran, Goyf, and Pridemage are all pretty solid without help; Natural Order is a great backup plan. The only thing I'd do to this list is add Eternal Witness, switch Heirarch for Kitchen Finks, and add some Cabal Therapies. Although Finks aren't as good with Doran, the better synergy with Natural Order and Cabal Therapy is probably worth it. It also costs three, slightly lowering your curve.

-3 Loxodon Heirarch
+3 Kitchen Finks

I'd be tempted to go -4 Elf, -1 Vindicate, -1 land to add +2 Witness, +4 Therapy. The dissynergy between Elves and Deed is justification for cutting them, I guess, but I like having them in there.


That'd leave:
// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Progenitus

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Natural Order

That list could still use a third Eternal Witness, and three or four Divining Tops, but I like the look of it.

[P.S.]

This is the newest, active Natural Order thread so I guess I'll post this here.

I really like the idea of Natural Order sacrificing Dryad Arbor (found via Crop Rotation) to go get Progenitus. I also really like having a maindeck Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale that I can "tutor" for (via C.R.) to slow down decks like Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk.

...that's about as far as I have made it, sans Chalice of the Void which I want to mainboard because it's currently a great metagame card.

There's a lot of ways to take this deck, I feel and I do like the idea of a Rockish build which can utilize Pernicious Deed. A toolbox deck, so to speak, really fits my playstyle. Granted I would like to play as few of creatures as possible, really just Progenitus, leaving my opponent with, hopefully, a lot of dead cards. At least in game one.

@MMogg: I have thought about this as well. Mainly just because so many blue cards (Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, even Misdirection) are really good right now. Granted Natural Order takes two green to cast and I really don't want to be really weak against Wastelands.

[Wyrath the Great]

I'm currently working on the following version:

Mana:
20 random lands of some sort
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Dudes:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Roots
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Empyrial Archangel

Spells:
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Lolshares
4 Glittering Wish
3 Maelstrom Pulse (will be Vindicates when I get the cash for them)
3 Natural Order
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Crime // Punishment (will be Pernicious Deed once I get me a copy, random Crime seems fun, though)
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Krosan Grip

Feedback is very welcome.

EDIT:

Changed my list a bit.

EDIT2:

Would Devoted Druid be better than Wall of Roots in a format less dominated by aggro - or would Wall of Blossoms simply be better due to the cantrip? I think Elves of Deep Shadow is better than birds in the lists that runs Jitte, and Noble Hierarch could also be better there actually, I think.

[Clark Kant]

OP, I like your list, The Rock is a strong shell for NO.

Here's what I would probably play...

4 x Bayou
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Forest
2 x Scrubland
1 x Savannah
1 x Swamp
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Kitchen Finks
2 x Birds of Paradise
2 x Tombstalker
2 x Doran, the Siegetower
1 x Progenitus

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Vindicate
4 x Natural Order
3 x Swords to Plowshares

Or for a strictly BG version of it...

4 x Bayou
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Forest
2 x Swamp
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

4 x Eternal Witness
4 x Kitchen Finks
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Tombstalker
2 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Birds of Paradise
1 x Progenitus

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Natural Order
2 x Smother
1 x Reanimate


It's a bit more agressive than your list, and thus less reliant on Natural Order. It also has more ways to kill your opponent's creatures, which is important.

Try it, I think you would like this list a lot better. Every single card it plays is either mana, or a bomb.

[pw709]

I love NO Rock. I like the basic/consistent shell of the OP. I really like Top in Rock decks though, because it lets you run Confidant, lets you hit the type of disruption that you need, makes sure you don't draw Progenitus, and helps to find NO. Here's rough draft:

4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Elves of Deep Shadow
3 Wall of Roots
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Progenitus

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Smother
1 Putrefy
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
2 Darkblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Relic of Progenitus

Elves of Deep Shadow over BoP because it wears a Jitte and trades with T1 Lackey.

The manabase is very consistent, especially with 7 mana creatures, which I think allows you to run at least 3 Wasteland almost for free.

No Deed MD because it kills all of your dudes too. :rolleyes: There may not be enough removal in this version, but hopefully the Walls and Finks help stall enough against aggro until you can hit NO.

SB is pretty generic with mostly usual suspects. Might need more graveyard hate.

[Nizmox]

That'd leave:
// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Progenitus

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Natural Order

That list could still use a third Eternal Witness, and three or four Divining Tops, but I like the look of it.

I like this list, and is what I would like to build. I also agree that another Witness would be optimal maybe dropping a Pridemage.
I'd be interested to know how people are finding Cabal Therapy? I feel that Hymn would probably be the better choice, particually when all of your creatures are good and not expendable.
Although most lists seem to agree, I think you need to run in NO Rock 8 discard effects, any less and I can't see you easily getting off a Natural Order vs any deck running counterspells.

[Clark Kant]

I don't see the neccesity of running four copies of Qasali Pridemage when we're already playing four Vindicates that are perfectly capable of blowing up any must destroy artifacts or enchantments.

Especially when we already play Thoughtseize and Hymn to help with making sure the problem cards don't get played in the first place.

He's great utility yes, but Qasali is either a 2/2 bear or a 3cc disenchant. I completely understand decks like thresh that don't have any disenchant effects going gaga over him. But four here seems like overkill.

This deck isn't even that vulnerable to countertop seeing as how most of the stuff it plays are 3cc and 4cc anyways. I can't think of too many artifacts/enchantments that this deck is terrifed of or must be able to deal with asap.

I think at the very most, two might make sense in a countertop heavy meta, alongside the four vindicate, four thoughtseize and four hymn. And I'm eager to see how I can accomidate two into my current build.

Any comments on the decklist I posted above?

[Nizmox]

I don't see the neccesity of running four copies of Qasali Pridemage when we're already playing four Vindicates that are perfectly capable of blowing up any must destroy artifacts or enchantments.

Especially when we already play Thoughtseize and Hymn to help with making sure the problem cards don't get played in the first place.

He's great utility yes, but Qasali is either a 2/2 bear or a 3cc disenchant. I completely understand decks like thresh that don't have any disenchant effects going gaga over him. But four here seems like overkill.

This deck isn't even that vulnerable to countertop seeing as how most of the stuff it plays are 3cc and 4cc anyways. I can't think of too many artifacts/enchantments that this deck is terrifed of or must be able to deal with asap.

I think at the very most, two might make sense in a countertop heavy meta, alongside the four vindicate, four thoughtseize and four hymn. And I'm eager to see how I can accomidate two into my current build.

Any comments on the decklist I posted above?

I tend to agree with you on the Pridemages, I guess with vindicates it's not necessary to run them.
I think both your decklists look solid. The list running tombstalker however, it's almost a shame not to run deed in this list. Tombstalker works well either pre (doesn't die) or post deed (remove the cards in the graveyard). But I'm speaking without testing.

[Clark Kant]

When evaluating Deed, you have to consider that Deed, unlike most other cards, eats up two turns of mana, not just one. So it has a much higher bar to clear for inclusion than other 3cc cards like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and such. When evaluating Deed, it should be considered a 5 mana or a 6 mana card, because that's how much mana you're going to be sinking into it in most situations.

You can certainly replace Doran with Deed. It depends on what matchups you see more often, swarm aggro, or blue based control/aggro control.

Deed is definately superior in the former matchup. But the latter matchups almost never cares that much about Deed, you play more creatures than they do. But Doran is something that they pretty much always use up one of their counterspells on. And thus Doran clears the way for a Natural Order next turn which if it resolves, pretty much guarentees victory for you. That's why I'm perfectly fine having to bring in 4 Deeds and the 4th Kitchen Finks from the sideboard and other tools against aggro on game two, but not designing my maindeck primarily to beat aggro.

Yes I know that Deed has other functions, but the primary function of Deed was always to kill creatures.

Deed was just absolutely incredible in The Rock before Tarmogoyf. Back then, the only creatures that The Rock played that are less than 3 mana were 4 Birds of Paradise and creatures that The Rock wanted to have killed asap like Veteran Explorer and Sakura Tribe Elder. That was a situation where Deed almost always gives you a massive amount of card advantage.

The build of The Rock I posted plays...
6 1cc creatures
4 2cc creatures
8 3cc creatures

The only decks in the format that play a larger number of low casting cost creatures are swarm aggro.

For card advantage, playing 3-4 Dark Confidant instead of Tombstalker/Doran/Eternal Witness is something that I've been strongly considering. If I did that, I would certainly play that 4th Kitchen Finks as well. Just the thought of accidently revealing a Tombstalker or Progenitus is terrifying, but I'm sure it wouldn't happen that often. Even revealing a NO could be bad though.

[Ch33bs]

Deed in the SB has been better for me because I usually have enough spot removal to deal with threats CBT decks run wich seems to be the majority of the meta which I have been facing but G1 against decks like goblins and zoo are better because of NO-genitus I have noticed.

[Hanni]

Since everyone else and their mother keeps posting decklists, this is what I'd go with, and yes it has 0 testing. :tongue:

G/b/w NO Rock

Lands (20)
4 G/B Fetchland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (21)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch (or Wall of Roots, whichever... this slot is the most debatable one to me)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Progenitus

Spells (19)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Natural Order

Rather than get cute with Top's, Confidant's, and Witness's, the deck decided to just go for straight beatdown, discard, and removal. Without drawing Natural Order, the deck still functions very well, similar to how G/b/w Survival plays without Survival. Obviously, casting and resolving for Natural Order will win games that you otherwise wouldn't have won.

[Jak]

Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate?

[beastman]

Play both.

[Clark Kant]

Hanni, why play 29 mana sources when your curve tops off at 4? I think 26 is the most this deck should ever play. I would cut some of the BoPs and the Dryad Arbor.

And also, there is very little reason to play Qasali Pridemage (and Maelstrom Pulse) over Vindicate. For a midrange deck with a diverse curve like this one, being able to kill creatures is actually more important than being able to kill artifacts and enchantments. In part for that same reason, I think Hymn is stronger than Duress in the deck.

So that frees up between 6-8 slots. Why not play something like Kitchen Finks and either some Tombstalkers or Eternal Witnesses in the slots freed up to give you a better game against tribal aggro, zoo and goyf sligh?

[Hanni]

I didn't test the deck at all, you're more than likely right about mana sources. Like I said in quotes, those last 4 accelerators were the weakest slots and probably worth cutting.

There is very big reasons to run Qasali Pridemage. It's not just for its artifact/enchantment destruction ability. It has Exalted, which a highly valuable ability, and plays beatdown on his own. A 3/3 is very solid at beatdown, especially if you run a bunch of removal. The fact that it can blow up artifacts/enchantments just adds to The Rock removal package. One of the best Rock creatures printed, IMO. You can save your Pulses (and Vindicates if you run them) for creatures if you have Pridemages to handle artifacts/enchantments. Pridemage is an absolute bomb in The Rock. Haven't tested NO Rock much, but I'm sure the same philosophy's apply.

I also do not think Hymn is stronger, because A) it requires double black and B) is random discard rather than specific. Since we want to be resolving NO, Duress > Hymn. In typical Rock maybe that's different, since it plays more of a resource war, but I'm still of the opinion of Duress > Hymn. I'd normally play Cabal Therapy over Duress, but given that we use NO, I figured Duress would be better. That has no playtesting behind it yet, so whether Duress or Therapy is better I have yet to determine.

Free'd up slots are good. If -1 Dryad Arbor, -4 Noble Hierarch allows the manabase to still function effectively, I'd fit in 3 Vindicate and 2 Tombstalker, for sure. Or hell, 4 Survival and 1 Squee. Who knows.

[Barook]

@Hanni: Why don't you play Kitchen Finks? They are that good - a nightmare for aggro as long as they can't find StP/PtE and ideal sacrifice fodder for NO and Therapy.

With that many sacrifice outlets, there is only little reason to play Duress over Therapy. Often enough, you have a BoP/Hierarch/Wall or Kitchen Finks to flashback Therapy.

[Eatatjoes]

I like the b/g build better, harder for wasteland to hate out, less mana screw. This deck is direct, and to the point. So the only reason to play white is for STP for lackey? What about just playing snuff out like eva green? Shouldnt hurt to much since we are playing finks. What do you guys think?

[Barook]

Wasteland is indeed a problem for the GBW build, like I saw yesterday against Mono Green Chalice Aggro on MWS. I don't know if he was just incredibly lucky or just played a bazillion Wastelands, but in five games, he always started with at least 2 Wastelands in his hand (last game, he had 4 Wastelands on Turn 5... :eyebrow: ).

However, this problem is likely going to be fixed once the enemy fetchlands are released which should help alot. The GB build is a bit more consistent, but I don't think it is worth the loss of power and flexibility of a GBW build.

[AngryTroll]

I've been tossing around a list for a couple of days. First of all, there's no Deed, so "The Rock" might be a stretch. When I tried to add Deed, I disliked how it played with the rest of the deck.

The list is very control oriented. I figure it's alright to be the control deck and be light on win conditions, because a resolved Natural Order shouldn't need aggressive friends. That left a lot of room for removal, disruption, and a shot at the combo match. Here's what I have:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Quasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Smother/Mortify...I might run 2/1
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Nantuko Monestary
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Forests
3 Savannah
3 Bayou

There's some obvious tension between Natural Order and Gaddock Teeg, but in the matchups in which Teag shines, Progenitus isn't amazing. Natural Order into Progenitus might speed up your win a turn, but your dudes aren't getting blocked by Combo, so your Pridemagi, Goyfs, and Teeg can probably get there one turn later.

I'm a big Mortify fan, but with the Pridemages main, you can probably run the cheaper Smother in its place. I'm a big fan of running a million removal spells.

I know, from experience with GBrSA, that just Thoughtseizes and Therapies aren't enough to win the combo matchup. Teeg is pretty solid against both Combo and Landstill, and at least he's a warm body to throw in front of Merfolk and Goblins. Kitchen Finks are very solid, playing nicely with Therapy, Natural Order, and opposing creatures.

Is it a mistake to not run Deed in a list like this? Honestly, I think I like Damnation more than Deed if you are packing some extra enchantment removal like Pridemage or Grip.

[Barook]

@AngryTroll: Wouldn't it be better to put Teeg in the SB for combo? It just leaves you with too many dead cards in the MD.

Has anybody tested the deck with the new fetchlands yet? I played a few games with the following list yesterday:

4 [A] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [RAV] Forest
2 [B] Savannah
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [10E] Plains

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [8E] Birds of Paradise
2 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
1 [CNF] Progenitus

3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

With the new fetchlands, I think the deck has finally a far more consistent manabase (I'm still looking for the right numbers of each land). The high number of green fetchlands makes it easier to run Dryad Arbor, too, which in turn makes Cabal Therapy and Natural Order better. My problems with the deck is the general inconsistency (manaflood or risky 1-land hands). I hope that the addition of 2-3 SDT along with 9 fetchlands helps in this regard.

Finding the right number for some cards is another problem. I already cut Witness because, while being a cute trick sometimes, she doesn't add much to the board or is win-more.
Hellkite Overlord costs one valuable spot, but is totally worth it. He gives you a Plan B if you draw Progenitus, helps to win the game faster if your opponent is below 16 life (and you know your opponent can't do anything against the Dragon) or other shenanigans (like giving another turn against Imperial Painter by reshuffling Progenitus, giving me the extra turn I needed :laugh: ).

I feel like the deck needs more beef because Goyf and NO simply aren't enough sometimes. I'm considering Doran, but with all the fetchlands, Stronghold and SDT, Knight of the Relinquary might be the better choice due to its utility factor.

Any thoughts?

Edit: I made the following changes:
-2 Hierarch
-1 Kitchen Finks
+3 Knight of the Relinquary
+1 Qasali Pridemage
(yeah, I know, it's 61 cards now, but I can't figure out what to cut yet)

First tests showed that Knight is a real house and should definitely be considered.

[Clark Kant]

This was an idea someone else posted in the Hexmage thread. But I truly think a worthwhile direction to explore is to try adding...

1 Dark Depths
4 Knight of Reliquary - great in the deck already with all the fetchlands
4 Vampire Hexmage - decent on own, great against planeswalkers, chalice and a multitude of other scenarios, and you can always sac it to Natural Order

This gives the deck two different terrifying/gamewinning combos, pretty much guarenteeing that you will see atleast one combo by turn 4/5. Or alternatively, even if your first combo attempts gets stopped by a counterspell/disruption, you'll have no problem finding another one.

Possibly, such the deck could also make room for
4 Living Wish

and a wishboard featuring
1 Qasali Pridemage - when you need disenchant effect
1 Ethersworn Canonist - hits storm/belcher combo HARD
1 Gaddok Teeg - hits storm/belcher combo
1 Vampire Hexmage - combo or kill a planeswalker or chalice or something
1 Dark Depths/KoR - combo
1 Tombstalker - When you have a full yard
1 Kitchen Finks - When you need life
1 Eternal Witness - To recoup a countered NO or a wasted Dark Depths, or just to grab a Vindicate or StP from the yard.
etc.

[Mark Sun]

4 Vampire Hexmage - decent on own, great against planeswalkers, chalice and a multitude of other scenarios, and you can always sac it to Natural Order

Just FYI Hexmage isn't green.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah, that was a brainfart on my part. So used to having all the creatures in the deck being saccable to NO I thought everything was.

[psyburat]

Hey, Mike Noble here (17th place guy from GP Chicago). I helped Matt Elias, the guy that updated the list to include white, a bit with his updates. I definitely endorse the change, especially since we now have access to Maelstrom Pulse (something that I would have loved to have for the GP, but oh well) and Qasali Pridemage. Here's the list that I would play if I had Legacy event to go to anytime soon:

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Wall of Roots
3 Eternal Witness
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Progenitus
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
Sideboard
4 Path to Exile
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Empyrial Archangel

I haven't personally tested Dark Confidant yet, so at the moment I have no say on the matter. The fact that the deck already includes 4x SDT definitely warrants its inclusion, but not being green is a real kick in the junk.

[Kesta]

It's quite the way i see the deck going. Why no StP or PtE? You're playing white so you should include 4of. I know most ppl prefer PtE with Progenitus but i tested and StP is better in most of the MU.

[Raindown]

How come Wall of Roots over Werebear or Wall of Blossoms? Do you guys find that extra mana more helpful that a threat/mana tapper or a larger blocker with card draw?

[Al-ucard]

What about this?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29980

[Raindown]

What about this?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29980

Wasn't there a lot of chatter about this on the Rock Established Thread? Personally I like the simpler two color mana base. It's harder to get locked out of a color seems more focused on going for the win.

[MrShine]

Hi guys,

I've been playing Rock variants for a couple years now, and NO is definitely the way to go. There isn't much like a 3rd turn Progenitus to make your opponent hate life, not to mention the fact that it can steal games from behind. But I'm sure you all know this :D

So I thought I'd put up a detailed post for what I've been playing recently, (no offence or anything, but I feel the OP is lacking a little depth), as well as my feelings on the archetype in general. I've managed to win a few small (30 man) local tournaments with the list, popping into the top 8 a few times on top of that.

The List:

Creatures (16)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Progentius

Spells (23)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Natural Order
2 Garruk Wildspeaker*

Lands (21)
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Ghostly Prison*
2 Gaddock Teeg*

Card Explanations

4 Birds of Paradise - These guys make what might be a slow and clunky deck into something truly competitive. It doesn't come much better than T3 NO > Progenitus, which as we all know, just wins games. Moreover, T2 Thoughtseize, Cabal therapy with the option of flashback is just crazy against many (esp. CounterTop/control) decks. What is less obvious about these critters, though, is enabling 3 mana turn 2; T2 Qasali Pridemage (with activation mana open) is great vs aether vial, standstill, and counterbalance, while T2 deed can be handy vs aggro (zoo, merfolk, as it will significantly slow their extension, especially combined with spot removal) or protection vs token generation a la Empty the warrens. T2 vindicate can really punish land-light draws, which many, many players (in my experience at least) are prone to keeping, especially when playing decks like CB or Thresh, hoping to use cantrips or Top to find their next mana source. T2 Finks vs aggro is awesome. Post board, it enables T2 KGrip, Ghostly prison or engineered plague (depending on your sideboard, of course). Lastly, the ability to dodge daze when dropping Goyf T2 is nothing to sneeze at.

That being said, they are terrible late game and I doubt I would ever run more than 4 mana critters. Noble Hierarch is a potential replacement (exalted = good), but the inability to produce black is troubling. Needs testing

3 Qasali Pridemange - These guys are awesome. CB, Standstill, P. Dreadnought, or Aether vial removal on a stick, not to mention they can own Factories if your opponent isn't careful. Exalted wins goyf battles, and is generally good in a deck like this as there are many situations where attacking w/ a goyf and keeping back blockers is a good idea (for example, the zoo matchup)

4 Tarmogoyf - you'd be crazy not to run these, but ironically I have been borrowing them from a friend (as they have now hit $60 a piece) who has requested them back and now I am a sad panda. Knight of the Reliquary fills in at the moment, but of course its just not the same

4 Kitchen Finks - I would be hard pressed to drop these guys below 4 copies. With the high proportion of aggro decks in the metagame (zoo, merfolk, goblins), these guys are the MVP, trading, gaining life, and persisting to stem the assault and gain incremental card advantage. + synergy with Therapy, NO. Also is a house vs Canadian Thresh, trading with mongooses and stalling out, which they are not happy with at all. They tend to be the main beaters of the deck, as goyfs usually draw the better part of removal from opponents.

Progenitus - The man, the legend. NO FTW.

The Spell Inclusions are a little more straightforward:

4 STP are the main reason to play white, and have proven themselves to be the best spot removal in the format. PLAY THEM

4 Thoughtseize, 3 Cabal Therapy - Discard package; Between 4 Thoughtseize, 4 STP and 4 Birds, there is almost always a T1 play, which the deck desperately needs to keep up with the blistering Legacy speed of today. 3 cabal therapy, rather than 4, because they are not a sure bet, unlike Thoughtseize, but are awesome none the less, especially with Finks or extra birds floating around. Discard is absolutely vital for NO protection; T1 birds, T2 TS + CT, T3 NO > WIN.

2 Sensei's Diving Top - These guys provide card selection that the deck sorely needs, smoothing out the draws and generally saving one's ass in topdeck mode. More and more I've been thinking this needs to go to 3 copies. 4 I feel is too much, though, as they water down the threats of the deck and are pretty much useless in multiples.

3 Vindicate - all purpose removal. Can punish land light draws, which gives it the edge over M. Pulse, and is another reason to play white. Can be a little slow at times, hence only 3 copies.

2 Pernicious Deed - the more I play the deck, the more I realize that deed is REALLY slow, and is a hog for mana. 2 turns to remove a couple threats can be a lot, but its versatility and flexibility make it a great piece of removal. Works well with Finks, not so good with BOP, but when the birds are in here for NO, they usually don't stick around and can always be pitched to CT before pooping the deed. I have considered moving them to the board, but since its an answer to a diverse set of threats, they have been holding onto the maindeck spot.

3 Natural Order - add progenitus, and win. 3 copies because you want to see it early but really sucks when you draw multiples

2 Garruk - these guys are a recent addition to the deck, and represent the flex slots IMO. I was looking for something that added to the threat density, while being good against a variety of decks. Especially good vs control, and can shit tokens for NO if need be. Additional Synergy w/ deed, as the +1 ability helps to get around the costly mana investment. The possibility of overrunning with Finks and Goyf is spicy, indeed. Needs more testing to earn a solid place in the deck.

A couple comments on the mana base - I used to run 2 copies of Treetop Village and 1 Volrath's stronghold, but the former's CIP tapped ability can be annoying and hampers the good curve that the deck can sometimes see early game. Also, this deck doesn't really want to go into the late game where this guys shines when combined w/ sweepers. The stronghold is more debatable, but the lack of coloured mana was hurting as there is a pretty high demand for it with the Finks and NO

So this post got pretty long (apologies), since I've had alot to say about this deck and only just managed to join the Source... I'll go over my feelings about the big matchups and the sideboarding strategy in a later post, as well as what I feel needs to be improved.

Looking forward to hearing your feedback on my evaluation of the deck, as in my opinion I think it is underrated by many people and has real competitive potential.

Thanks,

MrShine

[BackDr0p]

Sorry for taking them back, it's just that I felt like playing something else instead of TES for once.

[Raindown]

Anyone done anymore testing, especially with the B/G builds? or with Listing packing P.Deed main and taking a more control approach?

[MrShine]

@ Raindown - Why the focus on 2 colour builds? I would argue that 3 colours is just as focused and can resolve NO just as easily, if care is taken when constructing the mana base (ie, green duals/forests come first). Birds always gets the extra green for NO (as you need one to play it).

On that note, I think your concern for colour screw/land destruction as a reason to play only 2 colours restricts you more than it helps. The only matches where it really makes a difference are canadian thresh, eva green and team america; and both EG and TA play sinkhole which nuke basics just as well as any dual. CanThresh can be a problem but with proper mulliganning and appropriate fetch usage the problem can be largely circumvented. Despite this, it is still a good matchup, and we are also placed in a position to punish their land light draws if they don't plan accordingly (esp. when playing white for vindicate). Other problematic cards like Blood Moon and Back to basics can be played around by fetching basics.

White gives STP, QP and the aforementioned vindicate, all of which significantly boost the flexibility and density of the deck's removal. Not to mention that many top tier decks play 3 or more colours w/ few (if any) basics (Zoo, CanThresh, U/W/x Landstill) and still seem to perform adequately despite the high amount of non-basic land hate in the format.

[Tao]

I have tested the list with the 4 Yavi Elder and 4 Deeds quite a bit (see also Rock thread, I dodnt know there was NO Rock thread). What I found out as certain results:

- the list has an amazing late game: a Witness / Stronghold / NOprog - engine can be outcontrolled by virtually no deck unless in G1 they pack yardhate main
- it should play Maelstrom Pulse over Putrefy to deal with CB, Planeswalkers, Humility and random Enchantments (Enchantress, Survival)
- Yavi Elder keeps the deck together; it is great in making card advantage while having synergy with Therapy and NO; Stronghold on Elder will usually win you any attrition war
- Extirpate and Wastelands I didn't like and 1 Dryad Arbor should be included

[Maveric78f]

If you have such a good end game, why not play Veteran Explorer over Yavimaya Elder? It comes out much earlier. It's great against gob for instance. And more importantly the lands come into play (and untapped sir).

Veteran Explorer is the go-to-end-game button.

[Tao]

Yavimaya Elder and Veteran Explorer have nothing in common. Explorer is 1 card disadvantage for acceleration while Yavi Elder is 2 cards advantage without acceleration. That is like comparing Dark Ritual and Phyrexian Arena in a black deck, they do completely different things in different decks. If you would take something out for Explorer it would be Birds and I don't see that happening. Furthermore it sucks to sac Explorer for NO because that might give your opponent the mana to outrace Prog.

If you are unwilling to make at least 2-3 test games with Yavi Elder then test 3 Senseis Top and a 3rd Witness in its place.

[Maveric78f]

Did I say ever they fitted the same roles?

You just claimed that you played elder and that you had a very strong end game. Good for you, but Explorer seems to fit more the purpose to reach the end game fast. That's all I said.

[Tao]

I assumed you think they do something similar because you suggested Explorer as an alternative for Elder in the BG list.

Why do you think you can exchange a full playset of draw with 4 acceleration spells and still expect the deck to work? That makes no sense.

[Raindown]

I like Elder, but I can never seem to find the mana to power his draw and only end up chucking him as a block or sacing to therapy, not sure that is a bad thing, just my experience.

[RedVenom]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum but i've been following this thread for some months now and tested some of the rock variants for GP Madrid. The list i ended up with was as follows:

LANDS 19

1x Mash Flats
3x Windswept Haeth
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou

SPELLS 21

2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
2x Maelstorm Pulse
3x Vindicate
3x Natural Order

CREATURES 20

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Dark Confidant
1x Progenitus

SIDEBOARD 15

3x Path to Exile
2x Tranquil Domain
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethresworn Canonist
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Krosan Grip

I finished 7-2 Day 1 but couldn't show up for Day 2.

Some of the card choices may seem extrange but the deck works really well.

I removed Wastelands from the deck for a more stable mana base and they haven't really help me win tons of games. I prefer to have access to all my colored mana asap rather than "maybe" punishing land light hands.
I also think the Dark Confidants are auto include as they win on they own against so many decks. Sometimes they lose you a game but they win more often than loose.
I also pack tons of removal cause i was anticipating lots of zoo, aggro bant and all kinds of creature based decks.

As for the sideboard, i'm not sure if the domains are wort the slots as they ruin enchantress but help little against others. I feel fine about the teeg canonist combination and may add another canonist.

[MrShine]

A friend of mine has been having great success playing NO/Prog w/ Dark Confidant... And he's not even running Tops! Apparently the life loss hasn't really been an issue w/ 4 Finks maindeck (very similar to your list, although he runs the full packs of thoughtseize/CT).

To me Bob is exactly what this deck has been missing lately; the list that I posted a while back was alright but it couldn't really recover from the massive card disadvantage in the early game (if prog didnt seal the deal, that is).

[RedVenom]

I've found the tops pretty usefull when in topdeck mode wich happens really often but could be exchanged for tidehollow scullers maybe. I lessened the number of discard cause they are a horrible topdeck late game but the scullers provide a body and a discard, usually granting a stp.

[MrShine]

I've tried Sculler a bit but I don't really think it is that good; sure, you grab removal out of their hand but if they have even 1 blocker you are not gonna want to attack or block with him... Basically, he sits around until they find some other out or you are forced to block. In this sense I have just found him to be semi-permanent discard that is only good against decks w/ low amounts of creature removal when they don't have a board presence (which can perhaps be seen as win-more).

Additionally, in landstill or combo/control matchups, you will often want to take their bomb but if they have a removal spell it is pretty futile, as in either case they will be able to cast their bomb eventually anyway. It is just a small tempo shift that might not often work out in your favour.

I would play Top over him any day... and if I were looking for a tempo/discard option I would look to Hymn first

[RedVenom]

Maybe Elspeth should be worth testing as planeswalkers are so broken and i'd try playing with oran rief. It given advantaje on goyf vs. goyf and makes the finks even harder to kill

[MoaRider]

Just got back from a local legacy tournament playing the deck. It's still under construction, but I did well against a number of serious decks and ended up taking second place, going 3-1 in four rounds of swiss.

The list I played follows. Obviously, it is missing a bunch of cards that I wish I owned, but here it is:

Creatures: 18
1x Progenitus
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Wall of Roots
3x Spiritmonger
3x Yavimaya Elder
4x Kitchen Finks

Spells: 21
4x Natural Order
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Smother
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Sensei's Divining Top

Lands: 21
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Overgrown Tomb
4x Llanowar Wastes
3x Treetop Village
4x Forest
3x Swamp

Sideboard:
4x Krosan Grip
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Terastodon
3x Diabolic Edict


vs. Dredge 2 - 1
First game. I play. I NO for Progenitus on turn three, before he has a chance to go off. I board out discard, and board in Relic of Progenitus. Game two. He plays. He goes off on turn two and kills me while I'm still still fussing around with a birds and a top. Game three. I play. We both mulligan to six. This is our longest game. He can't get anything together, and I beat him down with a combination of Spiritmonger and Kitchen Finks, and win around turn 6 -7.

vs. Vampires (?) 2 - 0
He's not playing a competitive deck. Over two games he plays only bad mana fixing artifacts and single vampire lacerator.

vs. UWB Fish 2 - 0.
Game one. I play, and mulligan down to six. He keeps. He plays Jotun Grunt, Dark Confidant, Serra Avenger, while I play birds, Yavimaya elder, wall of roots. He plays a jitte. I play a deed, he stifles it. I topdeck another one, sweep the board, and then draw a natural order a turn later. Game two goes largely like the first, except that I draw progenitus on my second or third turn. I natural order for a spirit monger, which he swords. I hardcast another, and he has no answers.

vs. Naya 1 - 2.

Game one. I make the mistake of keeping an expensive hand with two lands. He plays first turn Noble Hierarch, second turn woolly thoctar, third turn BBE cascading into Dauntless escort, all before I draw a third land. Second game. I get NO off on the third turn, gg. Third game. He keeps. I mulligan down to five, and keep a hand with two forests, and three black cards. He does his thing, slower than the first game, but faster than I can cast more than a couple spells.

Overall I think I would call the night a sucess, except for in the 12 eldrazi packs I won, three of the rares were mortician beetles.