[HELP] Ebay Issue

[socialite]

Sigh.

So I bought 340.00 USD of Fetch Lands from an Ebay user named Dragon.Net.

Each of his auctions listed the cards as being Mint. Having dealt with bad sellers before I contacted the seller in regards to the condition of the cards.

The seller responded;

Dear jjlessard,

Hello, the digital photo was a little blurry twords the top, but I assure
you that the cards are in MINT/NM condition there are no dents, scrapes, or
scratches on the front or back of the cards. These card have always been in
slippys and are as close to factory MINT as possible. I hope this answers
your question thanks again for your interest.

-dragon.net

I received the cards yesterday and of course surprise surprise not even close to Mint. Every single card has face and back scuffle wear, damage to the front and back boarders, as well as shuffle warping.

I contacted the seller again, while opening a PayPal dispute, explaining my disappointment;

Dear jjlessard,

Hello, I would have to disagree with you on this matter, all the cards that
left my possesion were in the condition I described in my auction. If you
were to look at my feedback you will see when I say a card is in mint/nm
condition it is true. I have been dealing with magic cards for over 15
years and selling magic cards on E-bay since 1999. I'm not on E-bay to scam
cutomers or misrepresent any of the cards I sell. You say the cards have
warping from being shuffled, I know that is not the case I examined each
card before I mailed them to you, I am very disappointed as well. I don't
see how you expect me to refund your money, I stand behind my word that the cards that I mailed you were in the condition described. Now you expect me to accept cards back that may not be the cards I mailed you. Whats to
prevent you from mailing back cards that are warped and scratched, while
keeping the MINT/NM cards I mailed you?

-dragon.net

So I escalated it to a PayPal claim today. How can I prove to PayPal this guy gave me total crap? I have a feeling I'm going to get fucked. Can anyone help?

[Windux]

Since the pictures from the auction can't prove that the cards are Mint, it's word versus word.

As you can't prove that the cards you will mail back are the cards that he mailed you, he can't prove that the cards are Mint that he mailed to you.

Since I had such PayPal Issues as well, I can say: You will win this.

[socialite]

Since the pictures from the auction can't prove that the cards are Mint, it's word versus word.

As you can't prove that the cards you will mail back are the cards that he mailed you, he can't prove that the cards are Mint that he mailed to you.

Since I had such PayPal Issues as well, I can say: You will win this.

I hope. :(

I should have known better.

[Tacosnape]

That said, Paypal errs on giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm 4-0 in disputes.

Send photos of the cards you recieved to Paypal. Send a save of the page where the auction was listed as "Mint" to Paypal. Contact Ebay, also.

Basically, Err on the side of bombarding both Ebay and Paypal with information and they'll generally give you the money to shut you up.

EDIT: How the hell many fetchlands did you get for $340?

[socialite]

That said, Paypal errs on giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm 4-0 in disputes.

Send photos of the cards you recieved to Paypal. Send a save of the page where the auction was listed as "Mint" to Paypal. Contact Ebay, also.

Basically, Err on the side of bombarding both Ebay and Paypal with information and they'll generally give you the money to shut you up.

EDIT: How the hell many fetchlands did you get for $340?

Full set. (20) Would have been a pretty decent deal if they were pack fresh IMHO.

[Nessaja]

Full set. (20) Would have been a pretty decent deal if they were pack fresh IMHO.

Make scans of the received cards and point out why the cards can't be conisidered near mint. I'd also mention that you think you're dealing with a fraud considering you even asked him if the cards were mint. I'd also bring up the PM you sent him on ebay and his response.

Big chance you'll win this.

[sauce]

these are non foil, what do you care if they got nicks on them, some people are too anal.

[Nessaja]

If you pay for something NM you're supposed to get a NM item. It's simple as that. If the fetches were ex the price should've been lower.

[JeroenC]

He cares because he payed for M/NM cards. What the hell does foil/non-foil have to do with it?

Edit: what Nessaja said.

[socialite]

these are non foil, what do you care if they got nicks on them, some people are too anal.

I paid top price? I am a collector as well as a player. I prize my items on being in the best condition possible and I like to keep my items in said condition.

What's anal about paying money for an item and being upset about it not being in the desired, agreed, and listed condition?

[pi4meterftw]

I paid top price? I am a collector as well as a player. I prize my items on being in the best condition possible and I like to keep my items in said condition.

What's anal about paying money for an item and being upset about it not being in the desired, agreed, and listed condition?

A lot of people have different scales/definitions. Your card would have to be in pretty bad condition for it to be unreasonable for him to have a definition where it's NM. If it truly has warps and nicks, I'd say that's bad enough, but if it's Ex-Ex+, I think you'll have trouble proving he LIED to you. Or does Ebay have a grading guide that forces people to use the same language?

[sauce]

ok you can be mad, ask him to refund you like 10%, i would say thats the most you can ask for in this case and still feel like a non-douche.

[jthanatos]

ok you can be mad, ask him to refund you like 10%, i would say thats the most you can ask for in this case and still feel like a non-douche.

Yeah, I always feel like a real douche when I ask for money back for services not rendered or faulty items.

[Nazgath]

ok you can be mad, ask him to refund you like 10%, i would say thats the most you can ask for in this case and still feel like a non-douche.
Because feeling like a victim is so much more fulfilling.

[Tacosnape]

340 for 20 fetchlands? I'd say they better be so mint that they freshen your breath. He has every right to be angry if they're not.

[JeroenC]

A lot of people have different scales/definitions. Your card would have to be in pretty bad condition for it to be unreasonable for him to have a definition where it's NM. If it truly has warps and nicks, I'd say that's bad enough, but if it's Ex-Ex+, I think you'll have trouble proving he LIED to you. Or does Ebay have a grading guide that forces people to use the same language?

Not if the guy said they're almost pack-fresh

[Nessaja]

Near Mint means they shouldn't have any wear whatsoever from playing. This is a agreed upon term between Magic players and sellers.

@sauce - when it comes to internet shopping the description of the item needs to be correct. Seeling a NM item means it needs to be NM. If you specifically search for NM items you would otherwise go to another shop that does have NM items. I've bought items that were stated as Near Mint and I needed those items in Near Mint because of a trade, I received an item that couldn't be anymore then Fine, if I had known the item was Fine, I'd have bought the item elsewhere because I required it to be NM. When EF is using these items in a trade (ever) he requires them to be NM as well.

This isn't a matter of being picky, it's quite simple that you should receive what you ordered. If you don't care about receiving a replacement that has a lesser value then that is your right but don't put judgement on people for simply wanting what they paid for.

What will happen (I think) is that he either replaces the items that aren't in a near mint state or alternatively he takes the items back and pays for all shipping costs.

@Ertai's Familiar - make sure you message him on Ebay as well, this could save you a lot of time.

[Malchar]

The term "mint" (and by extension "near mint") has an accepted meaning even beyond the world of mtg. It means that the items have never been used or otherwise degraded in any way. Anything beyond that is "used" and carries a lower grade. The concept is the same across all realms of collecting or even selling in general. Mint isn't a matter of personal opinion or subjectivity. Calling something mint when it has been used is like calling a used car a new car for the purposes of selling it at a higher price.

[Tha Gunslinga]

340 for a set? Seriously? I would have sold you a guaranteed NM set for that, and it would have actually been NM.

Anyway, what will most likely happen with your claim is that you will have to send the cards back (with tracking, please) and paypal will refund you. You'll still be out return shipping, but that's life.

Once the whole thing's over, PLEASE leave negative feedback so other buyers will be warned. Sellers can no longer leave negative feedback, so you have nothing to fear.

[socialite]

340 for a set? Seriously? I would have sold you a guaranteed NM set for that, and it would have actually been NM.

Anyway, what will most likely happen with your claim is that you will have to send the cards back (with tracking, please) and paypal will refund you. You'll still be out return shipping, but that's life.

Once the whole thing's over, PLEASE leave negative feedback so other buyers will be warned. Sellers can no longer leave negative feedback, so you have nothing to fear.

This is exactly what happened and I intend on doing exactly what this ^.

Thanks all.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Strangely enough, I asked this same guy about some of his fetchland auctions, but decided against it at the last second. If condition is really important to you, be very careful who you buy from. The vast majority of sellers, especially non-stores, overstate condition. Even more have their own definitions of NM and M. Check carefully for a condition guide (many sellers list M as having some playwear and almost all list NM as having some).

Generally speaking, expect the worst from individuals and only slightly better with most stores (there are exceptions, but in hundreds of auctions I've seen very few). Either way, don't sweat it. Buyers typically win disputes- I'm currently 9-0 with another pending (though admittedly, none were disputes over condition).

In the future, I suggest finding good sellers and sticking to them. As above, I've gone through hundreds of ebay transactions and I currently have only 4 sellers I'm willing to buy from when condition is really an issue. Usually when checking an unknown seller, I go through their entire feedback list, or about 1000 comments if it's very long. Scour them for the neutral comments. Reds are important to look for, but neutrals are the most revealing. The vast majority people who get crappier condition than advertised will simply post neutral feedback (unfortunately, some leave positive). Any comment about condition is an auto-dealbreaker. It weeds out a ton of sellers and you may have to wait a long while to find good cards, but it's also brutally effective. I'd rather wait a month and get what I want than get something now, have to return/ file a claim and then get what I want in a month anyway.

[Dan Turner]

I guess I am kind of odd when it comes to this then if I am buying for it to go in a deck I would rather have VF or better just becasue I actually riffle shuffle my decks and see no reason to pay top dollar for cards when by the time I have played 6 or 7 rounds i can make a Mint card NM or even ex+ even if they have perfect fits under my dragon sleeves.

now something I am getting for collecting purposes I will not buy unless i have hi res scans of both sides to judge condition myself