Aggro Control - White Lightning - Former DTB

[100-1066605550]

White Lightning is optimal for metagames that are creature packed, for players that like to race, but control tempo. It also has solid anti control elements in Tangle Wire and Armageddon.

// White Lightning
// 1cc
4 Savannah Lion
4 Mother of Ruins
2 Icatian Javelineer
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 3cc
4 Tangle Wire
// 4cc
4 Battle Screech
2 Masticore
4 Armageddon
4 Parallax Wave
// 6cc
4 Exalted Angel
// Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
17 Plains

Back To Decks To Beat (http://grexin.shonic.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=1)



Edited By drg` on 1067368036

[67-1066613450]

I think this deck gains a lot from the new meta. Not specifically in card choices, but in its built in resitance to Chalice.

Chrome mox might be a good possibility, as the acceleration should make up for the lack of card advantage. Getting those 4cc spells out a turn faster is a major bonus. They also leave you with mana after you geddon.

[100-1066605550]

We just found that Chrome Mox wasn't worth it. I am actually toying around with a version with 4 Serra Angels and 4 Remote Farms to go even bigger. This further negates chalices effect on the deck and may even lead the deck to running 4 Chalices main.

[Mr.T]

Ok since I am the only one in Syracuse to play this deck in a tourney that I know of, and actually placed descent. The javenlineers have to go, there too much of a waste of space. I played Phyrexian Warbeast in place of them. I found they were stronger in the long run, and help versus the sligh match. I also dropped to 3 Ancient Tombs as well, and played a third warbeast in its place. I always drew into too many lands, and with tombs they lead you to your death.

Mike - I was going to work on the Serra Angel version we talked about, I just felt that white wasn't solid enough right now, and there wasn't much of a chance winning with it.



Edited By Mr.T on 1066757722

[100-1066605550]

Here is just a sample version of Serra Angel. Test it and let me know what you think.

// 1cc
4 Mother of Ruins
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 3cc
4 Tangle Wire
4 Exalted Angel
3 Phyrexian War Beast
// 4cc
4 Battle Screech
2 Masticore
4 Armageddon
4 Parallax Wave
// 5cc
3 Serra Angel
// Land
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Trators
4 Remote Farm
14 Plains

Mike

[Mr.T]

I didn't get time to test out Serra Angel.

Anyways, here is my current list for White Lightning because some people have asked for it over the last week or so.

//1cc
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savahnna Lions
//3cc
3 Phyrexian Warbeast
4 Tangle Wire
//4cc
4 Armageddon
4 Parallax Wave
4 Battle Screech
2 Masticore
//6cc
4 Exalted Angel

//Land
3 City of traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
17 Plains

[Ric_Flair]

Why no Leonine Skyhunter? This guy is a pimp.

[100-1066605550]

The main problem is that it just doesn't add enough offensive potential to the deck. Your better off casting Turn 2 Angels / Beast / Wires. The deck accelerates and doesn't pretend to be slow ass clasic WW.

Mike

[Mr.T]

The deck plays something like this:

Turn One:Plains, Savahnna Lion.
Turn Two(a):Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Morph down Angel.
Turn Two(b):Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Tangle Wire.

The deck is aimed to control the game a little more than beating down on you opponent turn, after turn. The reason why it's Aggro Control.

[Weavus]

I think that this thing really needs Chrome mox. Without it, the word Lightining does not fit in the title. I have been running three when i play on MWS. I mean what can be bad about second turn angel.

[100-1066605550]

// White Lightning - 11-20-2003
// 0cc
4 Chrome Mox
// 1cc
4 Mother of Ruins
4 Savannah Lion
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 2cc
4 Seal of Clensing
// 3cc
4 Exalted Angel
3 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Devoute Witness
4 Tangle Wire
// 4cc
2 Masticore
4 Armageddon
// Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Trators
13 Plains

[Mr.T]

I have said so many times, "It does not need it." You have acceleration as it is. The mox is only taking something out of your hand, and to really have it be that explosive you need a god hand, on top of pitching 5 cards. Swords, edict, anything really sucks after losing that many cards.

[ronnccox]

Looks like the debate over Chrome Mox might be over, as it is now banned in 1.5. And Ancient Tomb is now banned in Extended.

I really love White Lightning and play an older build of it. The Mox, though it would accelerate the deck, often times would force me to toss a card which I later would find important (which is always the risk we take with Chrome anyway), although it was nice to have a white mana generator after an Armageddon.

I do like the changes so far. The Javelineer was a wasted card that I'm glad has been negated. I will test out a version with Serra Angel tonight.

[Lord McCaffrey]

With Mox out, alot of the 3cc spells, which are weaker in general than the 4cc ones, should probably be cut. Tangle Wires and Exalted are obviously good enough, but Warbeast probably isn't. I'd kind of like to see Screech back in the deck, but it's fairly weak because your not dropping a creature turn 1 if you Screech turn 2.

[Mr.T]

All I have to say is look at my build. I have done the most testing with the deck. Mike got most of his information from me on this deck. I tested and came back to him with the info. My build is just up a little farther, it's the most solid build I have seen, and used. Oh yeah, Warbeast is a house in the deck.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Your list looks pretty cool, except for Warbeasts, which wouldn't be a house unless one landed on them. Exalted Angel is a house. Phyrexian Warbeast is a unboltable Chimeric Idol that doesn't survive Wrath. Still, if your not running Remote Farm, you need things at the 3cc to be castable on the second turn, and the creature choice is somewhat limited.
I'm wondering about what you use for SB choices for the deck. Devout Witness is obviously quite potent, as is Dust to Dust, although they are only practical with Remote Farm, due to the speed at which they have to be played to be effective. Chalice of the Void is obviously a great metagame call, as this deck is almost immune to it, it just butchers Sligh, and is castable turn 1. Seals are also a good idea, vs Dragon especially. What other cards do you use?

[ronnccox]

Here's a problem with this deck that maybe Remote Farm can help solve; I occasionally end up with one or more of the 12 2WW cards in hand with only, say, a plains and a Tomb in play, and then get plains-screwed for a turn or two. This seems to happen about every 4-5 games. It's especially frustrating with a facedown Angel sitting there like a bolt beacon, waiting for a plains.

I really wish we had more 3cc options, because I really hate the War Beast. The more I play with him, the more I think he's just not worth the drawback, since the specific combination of mana required to use some of these spells sometimes causes me to hold the Warbeast for fear of a land sacrifice. Lately I've been playing Crusades in the War Beast spot, which goes great with Battle Screech.

What I fear is a match-up against control and combo decks. Tangle Wire seems to be our best defense. I know this deck is for a mostly aggro-metagame, but can we tweak it a little without raping it? With control, not only can they counter Armageddon, they can also Wrath and lay a Morphling to finish us off. One possible solution to combo decks is Orim's Chant, which allows us to bypass control on our own turn, making combo take a turn longer (which may allow us to drop tangle wire in time).

Another thing to think about. Are there any artifact mana producers (for post-Armaggedon) we could use that wouldn't screw the mana curve up too much? I seriously doubt it. Just a thought...

I played Mr. T's latest build tonight...minus the lions (a lot of sligh in my meta...they just get burned) and 1 mother of runes, plus 3 Serra Angels and 2 Devoted Caretakers. The Serra helped me win one game against GobboSligh, then in a game against Suicide Black, I had two Ancient Tombs in play with 2 plains. I had to cast the Serra to block which caused me to lose 5 life. Ouch. (I know: two Tombs in play will rarely happen).

[83-1067904084]

What about adding 4xTundra, Serendib Efreet in place of the Warbeasts, and some number of Talisman of Progress?

[Grollub]

I really wish we had more 3cc options, because I really hate the War Beast. The more I play with him, the more I think he's just not worth the drawback, since the specific combination of mana required to use some of these spells sometimes causes me to hold the Warbeast for fear of a land sacrifice. Lately I've been playing Crusades in the War Beast spot, which goes great with Battle Screech.
Perhaps the walking crusade? Soltari Champion.. It has great synergy with Battle Screech too - also a body to tap to spit out the tokens.

[Carlos El Salvador]

Well, I helped mike design the deck (despite what he says) in an effort to make white weeine playable. I will miss my chrome moxen from the deck, as it added speed VS so many things. The thing that bothers me is the lack of the addition of the best 1 CC artifact that won't get banned or restricted ever, Bonesplitter. Honestly, it is a house VS control, as a 2/1 becomes a 4/1 on turn two if your low on the mana count. I have played the deck engouth to know what would work and what wouldn't. I think perhaps the blue splash is once again warrented, as Back to Basics VS most control will hose them too badly. Too bad it hurts you as well. I think when I play in Scepter City saturday, I will be playing my White Weeinie or White lightning, due to the fact I am in a "beat in face and win" mood, and it has a good game VS all control in the format by being able to play things mud plays a turn slower. I might use chromes as well.

[ronnccox]

What about adding 4xTundra, Serendib Efreet in place of the Warbeasts, and some number of Talisman of Progress?

I like the Efreet, but unless White Lightning is vastly overhauled, splashing blue compromises the deck's speed too much...and Talisman seriously slows the deck down.


Perhaps the walking crusade? Soltari Champion.. It has great synergy with Battle Screech too - also a body to tap to spit out the tokens.

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. The 2w cost is perfect for the slot, although we really need Battle Screech for it to be worth the risk. The inability to tap War Beast for a flashbacked Screech is annoying. Something to think about...

[Carlos El Salvador]

It is defently worth looking into, you know, soltari crusader slot. He has shadow to boot. And he dosn't cost WW2141354152 or 13521543... a simple 2W... Somthign the deck lacks in slots. that is another reason to conciter equipment, as equipping that cub with bonesplitter is a 5/3 flyer for 3W total... Great deal.

[ronnccox]

Here's something to think about:

Okay, I personally don't like Savannah Lions in this deck. I know, I know, he's the best one drop in the game, but after playing this deck, I wonder if there isn't a better card that could go in its slot... like Weathered Wayfarer, to prepare for post Armaggedon, and to retrieve needed lands (which in my meta I wish I could do sometimes thanks to wasteland and sinkhole).

I'm even considering not playing a one mana card there and trying the Soltari Champion...which may go in the War Beast spot.

Just some thoughts...

[Carlos El Salvador]

::Drop kicks him:: NO! LIONS STAY! Bubba would pwn you in jail, as they are not only the best 1 drop cretaure in the deck, but they are the best 1 drop creature in the game. I have never looked at a Savannah lion and said "Man, I wish this was some less effecent beating maching with a sub par ability on it like a wayfarer ability"

Anyhow... I don't like warbeast, personally. Initial tesitng of my varient of Whtie lightning (3 angel, 3 battlescreech, 3 champ varient, with 4 MD artifact/enchantment hate cards) has welded very good resutls witht he champions. They and Exalted angel face downa re the only two creatures that fit that "Man, that's not a normal casting cost for white weenie" spot.

[Mr.T]

You guys can sit here and screw this deck over, but as damn near the creator of this deck since I have done all the initial testing with it, I will continue to play my version when I play it. Oh, and Warbeast is awesome don't under estimate him. And this can't tap him for screech flashback shit, who cares he's a 3/4 in the first place that can be dropped on turn 2. I have never had a problem with screech.

[ronnccox]

Hey Mr. T I am not trying to "screw this deck over" or anything...just offering some ideas.

All of our meta-games are different, and I thought I had articulated my personal changes to the deck with good examples. I don't see as many burn decks as I see Sui Black/ Land Destruction decks. Warbeast, for me, dies to Terminate/Swords/etc. too often, causing me to sac a land. Add on a sinkholed Plains and goodbye chance to ever get out the 2WW cards. So, you see, a Warbeast in my Meta=bad card MD.

[Lord McCaffrey]

I kidna like champion more too, just because hes yet another unblockable and is just funny with Screech. His bodies a little small vs aggro, but he still is basically a 3 power 3cc drop.

[Carlos El Salvador]

He dosn't pump himself, but he helps get around goblins and such... Sligh has been a reletivly easy matchup for white lightning, due to our high amount of anti - Bolt/Fire cards we run maindeck (I run seven :D) The deck is solid, and if your playing screech, you need some sort of pump anyhow... Damn birds with their dying a lot. I think that screech could go down to two, due to teh fact that when I play Lightning, I am never thrilled to see Battle Screech.. It's just like "Hmm... Sure. Play it." It looks very ineffecent when sitting next to an angel or a bunch of shadow doods.

[kirdape3]

The creator of the deck is JP Meyer.

I do not feel that it can compete right now in a Dragon and control metagame, as this deck does not stand up very well to turn 3 wins and counterspells.

[ronnccox]

Well this deck owns in my aggro heavy meta-game. And the day someone plays an incarnation of no talent Dragon in my area is the day I...don't...uh....play...I guess.

And furthermore :O (Diatribe removed)

[nerdrockforlife]

Hmmm... just wondering has Aura of Silence been tested in the board or main. It is a perfectly fine card,yet has the down side of 3 casting cost. Yet, it is something to consider in a dragon meta game, or mud game. I feel that mud could just play around it though. Also what are the benfits of playing this deck in general? Is it a solid choice in any meta or something that people want to work?

[Lord McCaffrey]

Seal is probably a lot better, just because of the casting cost of Aura being a little too high. Aura doesnt stop the 2nd/3rd turn wins, which is when Dragon is probably going to try to bust out on you.

With Remote Farm, you could conceivably run it, but its not that much more powerful than Seal.

Vs Mud, Id rather run Witnesses and/or Dust to Dust, due to their effect being alot nastier. MUD tends to have alot of mana, and once again, for your basic Disenchant effect, speed matters.

[Carlos El Salvador]

Whtie Lightnign eats cotnrol for lunch. I am sorry if you think otherwise, but due to MD Tangle Wires + MD Geddosn + lots of threats, Cointrol is an easy mathc.. The combo thing might be tough as well, but with second turn tangle, You might pull it out VS Dragon.

[juventus]

Whtie Lightnign eats cotnrol for lunch. I am sorry if you think otherwise, but due to MD Tangle Wires + MD Geddosn + lots of threats, Cointrol is an easy mathc.. The combo thing might be tough as well, but with second turn tangle, You might pull it out VS Dragon.
How do you deal with:

1st turn- swords
2nd turn- mana drain
3rd turn- scepter

Also, I think lightning greaves should be at least considered for this deck

Lastly, could 4x depletion land, 4x city of traitors, and 3-4x Land tax work?

[Everything man]

Like the sig, Luca :laugh: .
At The new suggestions... it just doesn't look like there is any way to fit them in. What would you remove ? ???

[crimson_planet]

Any new developments with this deck?

I like the style of the deck, so I tried it at my first 1.5 tournament. I'm completely unaware of my metagame, but it seems to be mostly kids with burn.

I didn't like the Screeches at all. I'd cast them, but never flashed them back. I didn't like tapping beaters or Mom for 2 extra birds on _my_ turn, on the rare occasions that I had three white creatures in play.

Has anyone had luck with Lighning Greaves or Bonesplitter?

No one listed a SB, so I ran with this last minute assemblage:
4 Seal
4 COP Red
2 Aegis
2 Ivory Mask
2 Tornod's Crypt
1 Karma
1 Morningtide

I'd guess Sacred Ground is more important than GY hate?
Suggestions?

Thanks,
R

[Everything man]

You know you can tap the bird tokens, right?
It really shouldn't be that hard to tap 3 creatures.

[crimson_planet]

Of course. But my point is that it slows you down by tapping at least one valuable non-bird creature, but won't help you recover from global kills. You can't play it to be agressive, and tapping creatures is not a good defensive play. You develop your board, but it's like doing nothing for a turn in what seems to be a very active deck.

I enjoyed using screech in T2 when they first came out in a RW Weenie deck with Glory and ways to discard. I hated drawing it here. Is the 4cc important, or is getting more aggressive in the lower slots an option?

R

[ronnccox]

I play Crusades to pump up Battlescreech and there has never been a time that I wished I wouldn't have tapped mom or Devout Witness for the screech's flashback cost, because 4 2/2 fliers in my metagame means game over.

Lightning Greaves deservers some consideration, since often my white beaters die to terror, etc. more often than I'd like. Plus, the cost of Greaves is perfect for those times when I have an ancient tomb in hand with a plains or two and no remote farm:

Turn one: Tomb, Greaves
Turn two: Face down angel. Greaves on angel
Turn three: Morph. Beat.

Meh...looks nice, but I have had to run 4 seals and 3 witnesses lately because of all the scepters, so it's hard to figure out how to fit Greaves.

Edit: pointless self-admiration removed.

The main point that anyone should know about this deck, though, is that it's for an aggro meta. I can see how this deck would not fare well against many of the top control decks or many decks running mana drain, counterspell, etc.
I played against a guy who had a silly bounce/counter deck and he locked me down the first game then got mana screwed game 2 and I squeeked by game 3. I lucked out that time.

[bigguyinblack]

Is it my imagination or is Razor Golem an auto replace for Phyrexian War Beast? Admittedly it does'nt fit well with CoT but I would think it's worth it.

[Peter_Rotten]

Well, the earliest that Razor Golem could come out is turn 3. The earliest that PWarbeast could come out is turn 2. This could be a significant difference. If the deck played only Plains for its lands, I would advocate the Golem over the WarBeast, but it doesn't.

[FakeSpam]

The city has the same effect as a plains on the golemn.

basically, a plains reduces it's cost by one, and then you pay a one to put it out. The city just pays two.

Warbeast could hit faster, true.

[Everything man]

So this list look good?

//1cc
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savanah Lions
4 Mother of Runes

//3cc
4 Tangle Wire
4 Soltari Champion
4 Exalted Angels

//4cc
3 Armagaeddon
4 Parralax Wave
4 Battle Screech
2 Masticore

//Lands
3 Ancient Tombs
3 City of Traitors
17 Plains

Mainly mr.t's list with a few changes...
???



Edited By peter_rotten on 1075592049

[ronnccox]

Everything man: how do you deal with enchantments or artifacts? Are they not a problem in your metagame?

[Everything man]

Not really a problem, but if I do run in to something, i'd have Seals SB.

[Gerudo Thief]

Yeah, enchantments and artifacts arent really a problem?

What about Survival? Food chain? Chalice? Lifeline? Scepter? Disk? Even deed and smaller stuff like cursed scroll and creature enchantments are found in almost every single deck in our metagame.

Not all of those are huge, but some of them hold key parts in decks.

I think the Everything man is doing a lot more magic than just the cards.

[Everything man]

I think Gerudo is a little grumpy today.
In the last 3 tournies I've been to, the only artifact/enchantments i've played against are 2 food chains and one scepter deck.

[Peter_Rotten]

Moved to 1.5 Forum. This deck has seen very little play and needs to be updated.

[crimson_planet]

I've been playing it. With some success, but i am in a vastly different metagame. We have big turnouts - 40 or so, but 80 are kids. I ran into two archetypes in nearly 16 rounds, and one of those is Full English Breakfast, not really Tier 1 from what I can tell.

Anyway, I like the deck's aggro control stance. I feel like there aren't any autowins or losses. Between Turn 3 angels, Swords, Tangle Wire, and Armageddon, I can handle most of the threats shown by the top decks presented here.

And I still hate the Battle Screeches. I have just been too cheap/lazy to acquire the Savannah Lions to make the deck a little more aggressive. Once I do, I plan to see if lightning greaves makes Mom and Angel a little better. I'd also like to hear what people think of Skullclamps for this deck.

Viewing the metagame you guys are presenting, I'm not sure this deck will ever be Tier 1, but should be a solid Tier 2 unless the tools I have to work with radically change.

R

[WiLdFiRe]

Nice.
EDIT: In before lock :P

[Phantom]

Best. Necro. Ever.


EDIT: 1.5 Forum???? What was this place like in 2004?

[WiLdFiRe]

Seriously, why would a bot necro this thread? I mean wtf?

[Clark Kant]

Was this deck the precursor to Angel Stompy and thus to Angel Stax, Stax, Fairie Stompy, Dragon Stompy and Demon Stompy?

If so that's pretty freaking cool.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I can't believe Battle Screech saw play back then!

Otherwise, the list doesn't look that horrible.

Almost makes me want to rebuild Angel Stompy with newer cards.

[thefreakaccident]

I thought it was just another thunder-bluff joke, until I saw the dates...

I was sooo confused... also, why is this here anyways?

I also wonder how a non-mod was able to take it from the archives....

[Jak]

It wasn't in archives.


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I like the list, but why are you running this over Cialis which is clearly faster.

[troopatroop]

I remember browsing this thread. Such old posters. Everything Man? Holy fuck.

[Tacosnape]

I like the list, but why are you running this over Cialis which is clearly faster.



You win. Perfect.

[Isamaru]

I looked over, eagerly scrolling down the page to see what the bump possibly could have been, and then, needless to say, I lol'd.

[Xero]

In before lock :P

[xsockmonkeyx]

http://roissy.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/i-eated-a-viagra.jpg

[Akasha]

still not locked?

Hmmm.... viagra.... Where would we be without it...

[Peter_Rotten]

It's not locked yet because out of all the people who noticed it, only ONE person reported it!

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