[Banned List] Hermit Druid [Archive]

roflwaffles

08-03-2009, 01:01 AM

Why is Hermit Druid still banned? I recently got back into Magic after a 5 year hiatus, quitting after the bannings of Worldgorger Dragon, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Hermit Druid. Back then, the format was dominated by Landstill, Dragon, and Survival decks. Hermit Druid had absolutely no noticeable presence whatsoever, an my endorsement of the Angry Hermit deck in 1.5 was purely because it was a petdeck favorite of mine from 2003 Extended. When I was serious about the tournaments, I played BG Spoils Dragon instead. This was my Angry Hermit decklist:

Angry Hermit 2K4

Lands (18)
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 City of Brass

Creatures (19)
4 Hermit Druid
3 Putrid Imp
3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 Sundering Titan
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Verdant Force
1 Plated Slagwurm

Spells (23)
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Vindicate
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Dragon Breath
3 Worldly Tutor
4 Careful Study

Sideboard (15)
3 Oath of Druids
4 Null Rod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Coffin Purge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Defense Grid

The deck planned to combo out a 20+/20+ hasted Sutured Ghoul using Hermit Druid to dump the entire yard into the deck and Exhume/Reanimate. A flashbacked Krosan Reclamation could be used to "tutor" the reanimator cards into your library if you did not have one at the time you milled your deck. Cabal Therapy was flashbacked, sacrificing the Druid, to ensure that FoW, StP, and bounce did not destroy your fragile combo. Plan B was the standard reanimation method, putting fatties like Akroma and Verdant Force into the yard and recurring them on turn 2-3 and beating for the win.

5 years after the bannings, I find that TES, ANTendrils, and Ichorid are all combo decks which are about the same level or higher as Dragon, which is in turn superior to Angry Hermit. The inclusion of Hermit Druid back into the Legacy metagame would not be distorting. Cephalid Breakfast uses the same concept and isn't even deemed tier 1 in this format. All the inclusion of Hermit Druid would really do in competitive Legacy is free up 4 slots in Cephalid Breakfast and perhaps find a place in some sort of Ichorid variant. The power level of Hermit Druid has no place in the banned list for Legacy.

Tacosnape

08-03-2009, 01:08 AM

Why is Hermit Druid still banned?

Because Narcomoeba and Dread Return exist.

For awhile, there was a deck considered to be a strong contender in the format called Cephalid Breakfast. It was considered strong because for two inexpensive creatures, it could deck itself, Therapy out all removal in an opponent's hand, and then win with one of several various immediate kill conditions involving Dread Return.

Hermit Druid does this IN ONE CREATURE.

Like, seriously? Outside of the Power Nine? Hermit Druid is probably in the top five of cards that should never, ever, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, become unbanned.

4eak

08-03-2009, 01:20 AM

I almost didn't reply to this thread. The OP's name is 'roflwaffles' and this is his first post. It could easily turn out to be a joke. But, I'll bite; B/R threads are hilarious.

Even if Hermit Druid could distort the metagame, why should that matter? As long as it didn't completely dominate (like Flash would), then it would just turn out to be a tier 1 deck. Distortion isn't a problem (otherwise, we should all be against tier 1 decks...which would be pointless). Hermit druid wouldn't even distort the metagame though.

Hermit druid has a turn 3-4 activation and he's answered by all forms of removal, permission, and GY hate. Hermit druid is a one-trick pony that is overly linear, inconstent to assemble (worldly tutor, go?), and very difficult to protect. I think ANT/Ichorid are faster and way more consistent.

Cephalid breakfast is primarily successful because opponents were clueless about how the deck operated. Cephalid breakfast is junk if you play a good deck and know howto play against this combo. Hermit druid would improve breakfast, but it wouldn't be overpowering. The basic permission, GY hate, and removal played by most of the format would hold a Hermit druid deck at bay.

I'll be happy to test against Hermit Druid B/R fanatics.

peace,
4eak

Shanghi Knights

08-03-2009, 01:23 AM

i think this link will work http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38209.0

its low mana curve to combo puts it on par with something crazy like flash hulk

which would be a funny show if legacy got train wrecked by a crazy low cost combo like such, again. 07 seemed like a dark year.

Proper capitalization is required on this site. Please use it. Thanks.

- Zilla

4eak

08-03-2009, 01:40 AM

@ Shanghi Knights

Wait...you aren't seriously comparing Hermit Druid to Flash, right?

Flash is in the best color of magic, it wins earlier (turn 1 with a great hand), it's instant and wins as an instant, it is much more difficult to disrupt, easier to protect, easier to assemble, and more consistent.

These cards aren't even playing in the same league.

peace,
4eak

Tacosnape

08-03-2009, 01:46 AM

You're right. They're not in the same league. But neither is Hermit Druid in the same League as Legacy right now. It goes kind of like:

Flash
Hermit Druid
The Format

Druid could easily kill turn two. He's not hard to accelerate out on turn one, and it's not unfathomable to do it with Force backup. He's also a one-card combo.

Seriously, it's the Flash argument all over again. Just because something can be stopped doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.

Shanghi Knights

08-03-2009, 01:58 AM

yes i was seriously comparing them!

if they have a common league its "capacity to end games fast" (er) than wizards wants.

personally i just can't see why they can't be in the same league as they only need 2 mana to get rolling. the only difference is the case of a turn to go off.

feasibly you could even mix the two combos into one deck as well for kicks

Proper capitalization is required on this site. Please use it. Thanks.

- Zilla

4eak

08-03-2009, 01:59 AM

@ Tacosnape

This isn't the flash argument all over again. Hermit Druid is much more vulnerable and much less consistent than Flash, to the point that it isn't overpowered. From my testing, Hermit druid decks are good, but they aren't better than the format. It would not be the apocalypse.

The turn 2 kills aren't so scary. Assuming 12 accelerants and 20 land, you have a 28% chance to have a turn 2 kill. In accelerated versions of this deck you'll usually be left with only a handful of slots open for protection in the deck. Going for speed makes the deck extremely vulnerable, at which point, I'd rather just play a speedy version of ANT or Belcher which have much higher turn 2 kill rates.

Build the deck. I'll be happy to test with you.

@ Shanghi Knights

Tendrils has a much higher capacity to 'end games fast' than Hermit druid, and even Tendrils isn't even the same league as flash.

There are more difference than you seem to realize. I've tried to outline the deckbuilding problems, but perhaps you should sit down and play a Hermit Druid deck to see what I'm talking about.

peace,
4eak

Shanghi Knights

08-03-2009, 02:04 AM

i've heard magic workstation has an online feature, less i miss heard or read somewhere. if so i'd like to get in on the flash v. hermit testing. i don't have MWS so where do you download it from?

Proper capitalization is required on this site. Please use it. Thanks.

- Zilla

Mark Sun

08-03-2009, 03:10 AM

i've heard magic workstation has an online feature, less i miss heard or read somewhere. if so i'd like to get in on the flash v. hermit testing. i don't have MWS so where do you download it from?

http://www.magicworkstation.com/
http://mwsdata.com/

Currently thinking about the impact it would have on Ichorid. I shuddered a bit.

roflwaffles

08-03-2009, 03:54 AM

Hermit Druid is nowhere near the top 5 cards that should never be allowed in Legacy. It's far too vulnerable as a 1/1 creature and its utility as a graveyard-enabler has a massive amount of hate against it. I'm still a firm believer that creatures should not be banned. Except for Goblin Recruiter.

So a Reanimator variant using Hermit Druid seems to be outdated [although it sounds so much more fun :( ] . Would this be somewhat of a decent "Cephalid Breakfast" build using Hermit Druid if it was hypothetically legal in Legacy?

Extinction Fist

Lands (16)
4 Polluted Delta
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures (4)
4 Hermit Druid

Combo (9)
4 Narcomoeba
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Dragon Breath
2 Dread Return

Deck Manipulation (12)
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm

Protection (19)
4 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation

Acceleration (4)
4 Lotus Petal

GreenOne

08-03-2009, 04:10 AM

With 4 more free slots and not having the need to have both combo pieces in play, I'd probably play something along the lines of:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
1 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
3 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [JGC] Hermit Druid

// Spells
4 [MI] Worldly Tutor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [SC] Dragon Breath
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder

And just play like an aggro-control deck that can sometimes just "oops, I win". The opponent is going to be tapped out at a time, cause he's going to take care of the goyfs and dreadnoughts in his face. You can just vial in a Druid and win. Stifle is an all-around good disruption and protection against wastelands, Relic of Progenitus, Crypt and the like. I'd love to play a deck like this.

Or you can maximize protection and just go for the combo win:
// Lands
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 Hermit Druid
3 Narcomoeba
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Sutured Ghoul

// Spells
1 Dragon Breath
4 Brainstorm
1 Dread Return
4 Ponder
4 Wordly tutor
// Protection (21!!!)
4 Force of Will
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Daze
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Stern Proctor
2 Pact of Negation
2 Stifle

I doubt any combo deck could run more than 21 protection/disruption spells ever, while mantaining a solid turn 3 win.

The deck however, would be quite fair, cause it "dies" to half the cards in the format: any creature removal, any kind of graveyard hate, Pithing Needle, Pernicious Deed, Counterbalance/top, Vedalken Shackles, waste/crucible, Chalice@2, etc.

4eak

08-03-2009, 04:16 AM

You should definitely be playing Tarmogoyf in Hermit Druid Breakfast. When you can't go 'all-in' with a Hermit Druid, then you can still play Tarmogoyf + Good control Stuff.dec.

peace,
4eak

DrJones

08-03-2009, 08:03 AM

Easier to hate? Wrong, wrong. You just need something to give haste to the druid to make all removal totally worthless. 1st turn Concordant Crossroads, 2nd turn play Hermit AND activate. Not even sudden shock stops that. Heck! That play could even be done first turn. And what's about that stupid claim that hermit is not in the best color? Hello? all hermit requires you is a single green mana and to play non-basic lands, yosh! I'm pretty sure you can get some to produce your main color of mana in addition to green.

4eak

08-03-2009, 09:45 AM

@ DrJones

That was a well-made argument. I'm going to assume by "easier to hate" you are referring to the comparison between Flash and Hermit druid.

Easier to hate? Wrong, wrong. You just need something to give haste to the druid to make all removal totally worthless. 1st turn Concordant Crossroads, 2nd turn play Hermit AND activate.

I'm afraid the comparison is a bit more complicated than that. Xroads, for example, needs to be in your opening hand to be useful (most of the time), and otherwise it is just wasting a slot in the deck. Additionally Xroads is symmetrical, and not always in this deck's favor. Also, you'll usually need your first turn to just be searching for a hermit druid (60% of the time).

You're looking at a 13-18% chance to play Crossroad t1 and hermit t2. You do realize that Hermit has a :g: activation cost, right? So, you either have a turn 3 activation or you've further assumed mana acceleration. Assuming you run 8 mana accelerants (because you are pursuing speed, right?), you have only an 8-12% chance to pull off your combo on turn 2, depending on whether you draw or play.

Conversely, Flash can use less cards and resources than Hermit Druid and still manage to have a 36-46% chance to kill on t2 (again, depending on whether you draw or play).

They aren't in the same league, bro. Flash can run just as much protection (if not more) than Hermit Druid, and still be smoking fast. Even compared to other legal combo decks in this format, I'm not astonished or impressed by Hermit Druid.

And what's about that stupid claim that hermit is not in the best color? Hello? all hermit requires you is a single green mana and to play non-basic lands, yosh! I'm pretty sure you can get some to produce your main color of mana in addition to green.

I didn't say it was difficult to splash. I hope you aren't implying anything like that either. :1::g: and :1::u: are fairly different though.

You've failed to take into account the stability of the manabases. Flash can have a more stable manabase, if it so chooses. In a format partly defined by mana disruption (Chalice/3Sphere/Waste/Stifle/Moon-effects being the very common ones), it is certainly wise to consider the implications of a deck's color requirements. Since you can't run basics in a hermit druid deck, understanding the impact of mana-denial is going to be important.

Additionally, 2nd Flashes pitch to Force and or can be grabbed with Merchant Scroll (which would often be a Demonic tutor [which also pitches to Force] in a nearly all blue deck).

@ Hermit Druid Eschatology in General (not a comparison to Flash)

The combo:

is slow and too linear to justify that slowness. Both Belcher and Tendrils are substantially faster and more consistent.
is easily answered and disrupted by common control methods (name it, and it likely applies).
cannot recover if the combo fails for any reason. For example, you activate Hermit Druid and I Chant you. Here's another one: you have a Narco or two stuck in hand and you must activate this turn, you won't have Therapy to protect your Dread Return from permission or the Sutured Ghoul from control, and so Permission and board control become pretty effective.
relies too heavily upon discard, which isn't as strong as you might think in a format that heavily plays Top.

I'm not a fanboi of Hermit Druid. I would be happy to see it off the list though. Besides a principled problem with putting cards on a banned list without good evidence for why it should occur, I would love to see a deck actually use Pact of negation or a common combo deck not based on LED, and Hermit Druid could do that.

If you sit down to build and play a hermit druid deck, you're going to find yourself slowing the deck down for protection and curbing the linearity of the deck. It isn't that scary.

peace,
4eak

Finn

08-03-2009, 10:24 AM

Folks, "deck X does not break card Y" is not any kind of an argument for unbanning a card. For an extreme example of the fallacy of that logic, I can use 4x Black Lotus and 4x Mox this and that to reliably churn out a stream of Grey Ogres and Hill Giants on turn 1 and 2. That deck is not particularly good in Legacy. Therefore Black Lotus and Moxen are not broken. That logic is reminiscent of my mother-in-law.

Even if no broken use can be found for Hermit Druid pursuant to this conversation, it is still not a valid argument for its unbanning. Although we would be going in the right direction.

My personal view on it is a comparison to Survival of the Fittest which, in the Goblin Welder shell, can pretty close to sew up the game the turn after it comes into play when not disrupted. But it is always disrupted in some fashion, so the deck is not achieving much these days. The casting cost is almost identical and the mana spent in activations is comparable to what is needed for Hermit Druid all things considered. So it seems pretty tame using that metric.

quicksilver

08-03-2009, 10:33 AM

Hermit druid is terrible. It was terrible when it was legal, it was terrible when it got banned, and it's terrible now. Sure it's like cephalid breakfast, a second rate combo deck that no one plays, except you need to wait around a turn for your creature to lose summoning sickness. Until this thread was posted I forgot the card was still on it, it may even beat out land tax as the worst banned card.

Cire

08-03-2009, 10:35 AM

4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Gemstone Mine
-12

3 Concordant CrossRoads
3 Crimson Wisps
2 Mass Hysteria
-8

4 Lotus Petal
3 SSG
3 ESG
-10

4 Wordly Tutor
4 Hermit
-8

4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Dragon Breath
-8

4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Daze
-14

For a rough deck list it can go off turn 2 pretty frequently and it has 14 protection spells....

DragoFireheart

08-03-2009, 10:36 AM

Folks, "deck X does not break card Y" is not any kind of an argument for unbanning a card.

Then what is?

Finn

08-03-2009, 10:42 AM

My personal view on it is a comparison to Survival of the Fittest which, in the Goblin Welder shell, can pretty close to sew up the game the turn after it comes into play when not disrupted. But it is always disrupted in some fashion, so the deck is not achieving much these days. The casting cost is almost identical and the mana spent in activations is comparable to what is needed for Hermit Druid all things considered. So it seems pretty tame using that metric.

4eak

08-03-2009, 11:07 AM

@ Finn

So you've substituted the "deck X does not break card Y" argument for "card X is like card Y, and card Y isn't broken, so neither is card X"? You're reasoning isn't very valid either by your own standard.

Unless you are omniscient God or know of a way to compute everything in the game (which isn't feasible for us), then you will be relying upon inductive claims as the foundation for your deductive arguments.

Clearly the deck most likely to be the most format changing given the unbanning of Hermit Druid is breakfast.dec. It is a very reasonable starting place to ask about the power level of Hermit Druid. Hermit druid doesn't have a lot of other options, it is that linear.

Even if no broken use can be found for Hermit Druid pursuant to this conversation, it is still not a valid argument for its unbanning.

Given sufficient time and effort, if a card isn't shown broken, then it seems quite reasonable to leave it unbanned. If some freak accident somewhere down the road shows it to be broken, then let Wizards ban the card.

Besides annoyance (Shahrazad), what other factors are required for a valid argument for the banning and unbanning of a card?

@ Cire

You realize that mana acceleration is almost always better than Xroads/Mass Hysteria, right? Mana acceleration isn't symmetrical, and the odds of turn 1 Land/Xroads, turn 2 Land/Mana Accelerant/Hermit Druid are pretty small. Using those 6 "haste" slots for mana acceleration makes more sense, especially as t1 Mana Accelerant/Land/Hermit Druid has better odds (nice that it has one less card and one less mana required).

peace,
4eak

FoolofaTook

08-03-2009, 11:27 AM

I'm not sure why any card that exploits the graveyard after the opening turn is still banned. There are so many different ways to hose the graveyard at this point that graveyard based themes aren't generally that strong. Only Aggro-Loam is a tier 1 deck at this point and it takes several turns to get the steamroller going.

If a card results in a bunch of turn 1 wins then I guess it's a problem. If it loses to a resolved Tormod's Crypt then how could it be a break in the game?

DrJones

08-03-2009, 11:51 AM

@ Cire
You realize that mana acceleration is almost always better than Xroads/Mass Hysteria, right? Mana acceleration isn't symmetrical, and the odds of turn 1 Land/Xroads, turn 2 Land/Mana Accelerant/Hermit Druid are pretty small. Using those 6 "haste" slots for mana acceleration makes more sense, especially as t1 Mana Accelerant/Land/Hermit Druid has better odds (nice that it has one less card and one less mana required).But the purpose of haste is not just to win a turn sooner, is there to make all forms of creature removal useless.

TeenieBopper

08-03-2009, 12:19 PM

Since nobody has said it yet:

There's a lot of dumb fucking people on this site. Unbanning Hermite Druid? Holy shit.

Koby

08-03-2009, 12:22 PM

-snip-
3 Concordant CrossRoads
3 Crimson Wisps
2 Mass Hysteria
-8

Inner-Flame Acolyte would like to have a word with you. It provides a boost for Hermit Druid and Sutured Ghoul while still costs 1 mana.

And this deck is terriblly broken. I would much prefer to play the list posted on the first page with Dreadnoughts, Goyfs, and Stifle than the speedster version. Cabal Therapy is still absolutely necessary as well to allow the same turn kill without getting boned to StP/PtE.

Who plays Orim's Chant outside of combo anyway?

If it loses to a resolved Tormod's Crypt then how could it be a break in the game?

Hence the Stifle package. Pithing Needle would be a great addition too, and can still be played reactively unlike Ichorid's proactive Needle.

Sanguine Voyeur

08-03-2009, 12:43 PM

It's doesn't seem too overpowered. It's like the typical breakfast combo, but it's one card, forces you to run no basics, and there will always be a turn delay. Under standard mana acceleration, it will always be slower than a turn one en-Kor, turn two Illusionist. Adding in moxen makes it come down a turn faster, but you still need to wait until turn two for activation. A turn one Concordant Crossroads still forces you to wait until turn three and is a two card combo similar to breakfast's.

FoolofaTook

08-03-2009, 12:44 PM

Hence the Stifle package. Pithing Needle would be a great addition too, and can still be played reactively unlike Ichorid's proactive Needle.

But now you're creating conditionality in when the win con can be activated. How is a deck that wants to fill the graveyard on turn 2 or more likely turn 3 and then go off superior to a deck that wants to cast Ad Nauseum on turn 2 or turn 3 and then go off?

All of the things that stop the Ad Nauseum deck dead in it's tracks also stop the Hermit Druid. In addition you have the possibility of an extraordinary Mind Twist in the bargain given that the Ad Nauseum deck can lose its graveyard and maybe recover, whereas the Hermit Druid deck cannot.

Decks that exploit the graveyard as their only way of winning are inferior to decks that don't have to go all in on their win con and open themselves up to a devastating loss with no recovery.

KrzyMoose

08-03-2009, 12:52 PM

There's a lot of dumb fucking people on this site.

Welcome to the Intarwebz.

Koby

08-03-2009, 01:03 PM

@ FoolofaTook

That is why I advocate the Goyf/Dreadnought/AEthier Vial package. Play it a control/combo deck. You still have an awesome beatdown plan with Goyf, a Dreadnought speed rush, or just same turn combo with an EOT Vial'd Hermit.

However, this discussion is pointless since Hermit Druid is banned in Legacy. MTGO Classic on the other hand is fair game.

Finn

08-03-2009, 01:29 PM

So you've substituted the "deck X does not break card Y" argument for "card X is like card Y, and card Y isn't broken, so neither is card X"? You're reasoning isn't very valid either by your own standard.I am going to list the things the two logical comparisons have in common here:

1. They both talk about cards.
2. They both make fancy use of the letters x and y.

BTW, if you wish to pursue this, look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens

But the basic argument looks like this

x implies y
not y
therefore not x

The moral of the story is that you are right about one thing. We actually will have to use induction at some level. However, seeing as it is a woefully inadequate method of figuring out answers by itself, let's shy away from making inept comparisons in the process.

@Teeniebopper - thank you for the insightful input.

In the land of the Lackey, I am willing to give Hermit Druid a chance.

SpatulaOfTheAges

08-03-2009, 02:17 PM

Because Narcomoeba and Dread Return exist.

For awhile, there was a deck considered to be a strong contender in the format called Cephalid Breakfast. It was considered strong because for two inexpensive creatures, it could deck itself, Therapy out all removal in an opponent's hand, and then win with one of several various immediate kill conditions involving Dread Return.

Hermit Druid does this IN ONE CREATURE.

Like, seriously? Outside of the Power Nine? Hermit Druid is probably in the top five of cards that should never, ever, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, become unbanned.

I think he's joking.

Hermit Druid is a 2 mana 1/1 without Haste.

Let's get fucking serious.

Let me summarize;

Hermit Druid is a fragile piece of crap. Anyone who thinks they can build a serious deck with that card, I invite you to try testing it against real decks and see what happens.

DragoFireheart

08-03-2009, 03:52 PM

No one here has shown how a fragile creature without haste who's quite a bit weaker than Worldgorger is still banned in a format where there are decks with the ability to kill on turn 1-3. The argument that "It's banned, so testing it is pointless" or "it's too powerful" is folly since there is the possibility of it being unbanned when one considers that the reason it was banned in the first place was due to an Old Meta. Since Legacy isn't in that Meta back when Hermit Druid was banned it's at least worth seeing HOW powerful it may be and then deciding if it is still too powerful for Legacy.

Oh and Finn, posting a wiki source as your support isn't very good reasoning either. :/

Aggro_zombies

08-03-2009, 03:53 PM

Hermit Druid is a fragile piece of crap. Anyone who thinks they can build a serious deck with that card, I invite you to try testing it against real decks and see what happens.
I did this once for shits and giggles, and Hermit Druid is indeed a fragile piece of crap. The absolute worst-case scenario with him is that people will have to dust off whatever cards they used as turn-one Lackey answers a few years back and play those in the SB.

Koby

08-03-2009, 04:26 PM

Oh and Finn, posting a wiki source as your support isn't very good reasoning either. :/

The crutch of this argument is dependent that event Y is only consequent due to event X.

Unfortunately, this doesn't occur in MTG, because there are numerous ways to break cards. When cards work really well together, we call that synergy - i.e. Skullclamp with Modular. However, Modular works fine without Skullclamp, and Skullclamp works well without Modular, such as Elves. Is Modular broken without Skullclamp? Are Elves broken without Skullclamp?

Both can be argued for, but there are very few cases where "Card X is broken therefore Card Y is broken/Card Y is not broken/ therefore Card X is not broken."

Flash, Protean Hulk - the former is broken, the latter is synergistic. Replace Flash with Sneak Attack/Through the Breach/Footsteps of the Goryo, and you still achieve the same effect, albeit much slower.
Hermit Druid, nonbasics - the former can be broken, the latter is synergistic. Neither outright broken.
Necropotence, <card> - the former is outright broken, the latter is irrelevant. Any set of cards can abuse Necropotence to make Stupid Things Happen.

MTG-Fan

08-03-2009, 05:16 PM

How is a Hermit Druid deck any worse than say, a modern Legacy Dredge deck, or even a Belcher deck?

They can all "go off" early, but they all fold to specific kinds of hate that people can easily sideboard against them.

DrJones

08-03-2009, 05:32 PM

Finn

08-03-2009, 05:35 PM

Oh and Finn, posting a wiki source as your support isn't very good reasoning either. :/
You're right. I'm sure it isn't a cornerstone of classical logic or anything. I just got lucky and stumbled upon that wiki article about one of the rules of logical inference while looking for porn.

Or maybe I posted it for others to reference. You continue to amaze me.

The crutch of this argument is dependent that event Y is only consequent due to event X.Sorry, that is not quite right, and is one of the most common mistaken arguments of formal logic.

Disproving x does not disprove y. Here's an example:

If DragoFireHeart is a member of The Holy Trinity of Wiener Schnitzels, then he is a human being, as they don't allow aliens any more.
DragoFireHeart is not a member of The Holy Trinity of Wiener Schnitzels. I checked the roster, so this is true.
Therefore, DragoFireHeart is not a human being.

Nonetheless, my argument is still contingent on the similarity of Hermit Druid to Survival of the Fittest. And this is the realm of conjecture I am afraid. As I said to my good buddy Forbiddian, logic can only take you so far in judging magic cards.

Koby

08-03-2009, 05:56 PM

If DragoFireHeart is a member of The Holy Trinity of Wiener Schnitzels, then he is a human being, as they don't allow aliens any more.
DragoFireHeart is not a member of The Holy Trinity of Wiener Schnitzels. I checked the roster, so this is true.
Therefore, DragoFireHeart is not a human being.

The argument boiled down:
If A, then B.
~A.
Thus, ~B.

This is not a valid argument (nevermind the truthfulness of premise 2). You cannot deduce that B will not happen if A does not. Only that if A occurs, then B must occur as well. Additionally, conditional premises are tricky to determine truthfulness. In "If A, then B", A could be false but B could be true, and the whole statement is considered true because the condition A was not met and we do not check B.

For: "If A, then B" and... (1 = true, 0 = false)
A=1, B=1 -- statement is true
A=1, B=0 -- statement is false
A=0, B=1 -- statement is true
A=0, B=0 -- statement is true

But this has nothing to do with the validity of an argument and only the soundness of it.

The contraposition which is valid:
If A, then B.
Thus, if ~B, then ~A.

Here, we assert that B is a necessary consequent of A.

Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional

SpatulaOfTheAges

08-03-2009, 05:58 PM

Can Belcher and Dredge run 14 combo protection spells? Because that Hermit list posted in this thread does.

EDIT: And that's the fast one, that runs less disruption. The other one in this thread runs 19.

Neither of those lists is entirely dependent on a 1/1, and thus they need a lot less protection.

lavafrogg

08-03-2009, 06:41 PM

I'm confused how anyone can think this card should be unbanned( I'll be this guy) it is in the same boat as mind twist in that the arguements are very persuasive to take it off the list but the power level is just too high for the legacy cardpool.
In simple scenarios the card seems like it would be broken/ or a piece of crap but the bottom line is that it is a one card combo. Notice the misnomer I just used and how there is no such thing as a one card combo, that is just a broken card.
Now if only there was a color good at protecting permanates or just stopping the opponent from resolving spells, or maybe an enchantment that could lock down the game, or maybe someway to cantrips through your deck to ensure you had protection in your hand at all times....

Gheizen64

08-03-2009, 07:54 PM

It's surely not a card that problematic. Druid has a lot of problem:

- restrict a lot deck design (read : absolutely no basic, running green, the engine that is 3 narcomoeba, 4 druid, 1 dread return, 1 sutured ghoul, 1 dragon breath = 10 cards, without dragon breath is 9 card but is also a turn 4 combo)
- the combo card are absolutely useless in your hand, where modern combo deck run no dead card because they can't waste cards, they have to race as aggressive and protected as possible
- expose you to non-basic hate
- expose you to creature hate and burn
- expose you to graveyard hate
- give information on when you're going to go off
- the engine of the deck is difficult to tutor for (wordly tutor? pact is unusable in such a deck)

Imho, current AnT tendrils are just stronger. They are a lot more redundant, they can win out of the blue, and the play stronger colors.
Goblin recruiter is far more broken, it has redundance, has a devastating effect right when it enter in play, and fit perfectly in an aggressive strategy that can punish you for being too slow.

Even worse than Druid, by FAR, is Metalworker. I can assure you that thing wouldn't see play anywhere was it legal, and why it's still banned is far beyond me.

Shanghi Knights

08-03-2009, 08:27 PM

to add to the 1 card combo argument. its restricted due to that it only needs 2 mana to get deck built for it going and wining. plain and simple.

Jak

08-03-2009, 08:36 PM

I did this once for shits and giggles, and Hermit Druid is indeed a fragile piece of crap. The absolute worst-case scenario with him is that people will have to dust off whatever cards they used as turn-one Lackey answers a few years back and play those in the SB.

Fragile, but still powerful. I won't say it isn't vulnerable, because it is, but a deck running it will be built like Cephalid Breakfast and run a good number of protection spells.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Underground Sea
4 Chrome Mox

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hermit Druid
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutred Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy

4 Brainstorm
4 Top
4 Worldly Tutor

SB
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
3 Krosan Grip
6 ???

SpatulaOfTheAges

08-03-2009, 08:41 PM

to add to the 1 card combo argument. its restricted due to that it only needs 2 mana to get deck built for it going and wining. plain and simple.

No, you also need to untap with your 1/1.

Cire

08-03-2009, 08:47 PM

- the engine of the deck is difficult to tutor for (wordly tutor? pact is unusable in such a deck)
.

ohh...forgot about that... Here lets say the holy grail is a turn 1 combo deck with protection?

The Man
4 Summoner's pact (can act as accel and search up hermit for 0)
4 Hermit Druid

The Speed
(part 2 of the hermit/haste combo and means you don't need dragon's breath in the deck)
4 Concordant Crossroads
4 Mass Hysteria

The Plan
4 narcomoeba
1 dread return
1 sutured ghoul
1 Lord of extinction
1 Cabal therapy (can act as protection, or get a combo piece into your grave)

The Land
4 Tropical island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool

The Mana (im counting the pact also as accel since it can search up ESG's)
4 Lotus Petal
4 SSG
4 ESG

The Protection
4 Pact of negation
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

I think thats 60 cards....Yes it's a one trick pony, but it has a very decent chance of going off turn 1! and it has a whopping 16! protection spells...

How is Hermit Druid Fair?

Finn

08-03-2009, 08:52 PM

The argument boiled down:
If A, then B.
~A.
Thus, ~B.

This is not a valid argument (nevermind the truthfulness of premise 2). You cannot deduce that B will not happen if A does not. Only that if A occurs, then B must occur as well. Additionally, conditional premises are tricky to determine truthfulness. In "If A, then B", A could be false but B could be true, and the whole statement is considered true because the condition A was not met and we do not check B.

For: "If A, then B" and... (1 = true, 0 = false)
A=1, B=1 -- statement is true
A=1, B=0 -- statement is false
A=0, B=1 -- statement is true
A=0, B=0 -- statement is true

But this has nothing to do with the validity of an argument and only the soundness of it.

The contraposition which is valid:
If A, then B.
Thus, if ~B, then ~A.

Here, we assert that B is a necessary consequent of A.

Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditionalI see you did some reading on implication, but I can't figure out what you are arguing here. Are you actually saying that the logic of an argument is independent of its validity? I don't even know what to say to that. Nevermind; the point is beyond lost. Back to Hermit Druid.

@lavafrogg, your sarcasm is so thick that I can't be sure what your position is. But it feels like a personal attack. You bastard.

Shanghi Knights

08-03-2009, 08:54 PM

No, you also need to untap with your 1/1.

what do you mean need to untap with your 1/1?
i got confused.

if anyone was confused by what i said i just meant its a rediculus ability at an extremely low mana cost requirement to "go off"

PunkRocker1134

08-03-2009, 09:06 PM

I think thats 60 cards....Yes it's a one trick pony, but it has a very decent chance of going off turn 1! and it has a whopping 16! protection spells...

How is Hermit Druid Fair?

Because to go off turn 1 you need, 1 of 8 cards. Then you need a land, and 3 of 12 pieces of acceleration. Plus you need 1 of 8 cards to give everything haste. Then you need protection. I'm not good at statistics, but those don't seem like good odds to me. Oh, and if they have StP/removal/stifle/pithing needle/ graveyard hate in their hand you need two pieces of protection. Also there is zero card draw in that list, which means if they disrupt your combo, you're done. No chance to recover at all. Also that means no way to really setup your combo or make sure you draw what you need. It just seems really fragile, and unlucky.

Jak

08-03-2009, 09:37 PM

Again, the card is not broken because of its speed. It is a one card combo that is slow. Being able to use the additional slots you have for protection makes the card good. Broken? I don't know. I think the list I posted could be okay since it is mostly a copy of Cephalid Breakfast but with more protection. Less creatures to protect plus more protection seems like it could make the deck ridiculously good.

In short, stop trying to make the deck go off turn one.

Sanguine Voyeur

08-03-2009, 09:41 PM

what do you mean need to untap with your 1/1?
i got confused.You'd need to have the 1/1 out, then let an entire turn pass to use it's tap ability unless you give it hast. 'Untap' in this case refers to how you must wait a whole turn.

clavio

08-03-2009, 09:41 PM

I think Jak is on the money here. The deck wouldn't even really need to run acceleration. It could play a sort of control route until you want to druid it up.

I guess you could say its like the painter/grind combo except with only one card. I wonder how druid would look in an EPICpainter type shell.

Shanghi Knights

08-03-2009, 09:52 PM

you thinking something like hermit and welder? druid to put them in the yard then weld them into play?

Jak

08-03-2009, 10:11 PM

you thinking something like hermit and welder? druid to put them in the yard then weld them into play?

Why not just win instead?

quicksilver

08-03-2009, 10:39 PM

I like how this combo deck also loses to fog. Oh and also extirpate, it has absolutley no way to beat extirpate other than 1/1 beats.

ohh...forgot about that... Here lets say the holy grail is a turn 1 combo deck with protection?

The Man
4 Summoner's pact (can act as accel and search up hermit for 0)
4 Hermit Druid

The Speed
(part 2 of the hermit/haste combo and means you don't need dragon's breath in the deck)
4 Concordant Crossroads
4 Mass Hysteria

The Plan
4 narcomoeba
1 dread return
1 sutured ghoul
1 Lord of extinction
1 Cabal therapy (can act as protection, or get a combo piece into your grave)

The Land
4 Tropical island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool

The Mana (im counting the pact also as accel since it can search up ESG's)
4 Lotus Petal
4 SSG
4 ESG

The Protection
4 Pact of negation
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

I think thats 60 cards....Yes it's a one trick pony, but it has a very decent chance of going off turn 1! and it has a whopping 16! protection spells...

How is Hermit Druid Fair?

You probably want top run dragon's breath in there, because you need a haste effect to win, and without dragon's breath it becomes a 2 card combo.

Jak

08-04-2009, 01:48 AM

Giles

08-04-2009, 04:14 AM

I tested my list against a heavy control deck. It won on mulligans to five both games... First game comboed off turn 5 or something because I couldn't find lands after hitting his hand with Thoughtseizes and then playing a second Hermit after one got Spell Snared. Game two I sided out the combo for a UGB Thresh deck and got there. Deck seemed good, not broken, but it doesn't need to come off.

I was never too scared playing you. Also it seems that Crypt would just rape you.

Edit: Unlike dredge, Druid can not be activated with a Crypt or a Relic on the table.

Jak

08-04-2009, 04:15 AM

I was never too scared playing you. Also it seems that Crypt would just rape you.

Yeah, basically I thought the deck was good, however, hate comes in so many forms. It wouldn't even be close to Flash but its fine where its at right now.

Finn

08-04-2009, 09:53 AM

I like how this combo deck also loses to fog. Oh and also extirpate, it has absolutley no way to beat extirpate other than 1/1 beats.I think this is a pretty strong argument for bringing Hermit Druid back. Any card that can make Extirpate just as good as Fog is worth including in a format.

FoolofaTook

08-04-2009, 10:19 AM

Cards should only be banned in Legacy for two reasons:

1. They demonstrably fuel decks that make a travesty of the spirit of the competition. They need to be the main cause of the problem to fit this criteria. If WotC ever decided that having two turn games in Legacy was the norm you could probably take almost all the cards on the banned list off of it with no problem.

2. They cause problems in organized competition due to space or time constraints.

A lot of the cards on the banned list are there because they fit definition 1 when they landed there. The question for some of them is do they still fit the definition after whatever amount of time has passed since they landed on the list?

lavafrogg

08-04-2009, 10:27 AM

Finn- have you ever considered using a different arguement other than " in your example fog/jump is just as good" I think I've seen you use that tactic before and I see it as an insult to our intelligence that you don't go out of your way to find more mathematical proofs to baffle us with.

DragoFireheart

08-04-2009, 10:55 AM

You're right. I'm sure it isn't a cornerstone of classical logic or anything. I just got lucky and stumbled upon that wiki article about one of the rules of logical inference while looking for porn.

Or maybe I posted it for others to reference. You continue to amaze me.

Then post those references and not the wiki link. Or is that difficult for you? Oh never mind, you think Survival is a fair comparison to hermit druid...

Finn- have you ever considered using a different arguement other than " in your example fog/jump is just as good" I think I've seen you use that tactic before and I see it as an insult to our intelligence that you don't go out of your way to find more mathematical proofs to baffle us with.

The fact that he compared Hermit Druid to Survival and uses the logic that they are similar enough should be enough evidence of why trying to figure him out is a general waste of time. Basically, when Finn thinks he's right and you disagree with him, you're wrong.

Finn

08-04-2009, 12:00 PM

Then post those references and not the wiki link. Or is that difficult for you?Wait, are you saying that you think Modus Tollens is something I made up? Really? That is like an adult who has never been taught arithmetic asking me to provide evidence of subtraction.

The fact that he compared Hermit Druid to Survival and uses the logic that they are similar enough should be enough evidence of why trying to figure him out is a general waste of time. Basically, when Finn thinks he's right and you disagree with him, you're wrong.
Here's another word for you. "ad hominem". I am not going to post a link for you lest you doubt its existence. But needless to say, if you are careful enough to avoid this one when talking at me in the future, you can begin to debate things in a more meaningful way. If you are as talented as a disreputable bear who assassinates, you may even learn to hide your smarmy insults so well that you will only get banned from most of the discussion sites on Magic. See, I'm very helpful.

BTW, lavafrogg doesn't know a friggin' thing about Magic. So what if his deck goes undefeated? He's a cold turd in lobster sauce, and I hate his guts. Ad Eminem, my foot.

4eak

08-04-2009, 01:28 PM

@ Finn

I think you've a poor, trollish attitude today (not meant as an ad hominem, I just expected better from your posts), and I think you failed to adequately answer my post. You offered Modus Tollens and stopped your argument there; you offered a logic lesson (in poor taste) without really showing me your counterargument. Disagree with my assumption/argument and provide the actual counterargument; don't link me to Modus Tollens like I'm some moron who hasn't given thought to what you said.

My claim is that you've had to make an ugly, inductive assumption in your argument as well, making your argument just as fallacious (which I believe to be (3) you left out on your 'list of things that our arguments have in common'). It seems hypocritical to say that I've used unsound reasoning and you haven't. Perhaps I've missed your argument, so please clarify for me.

As I understand, between us, here are mutually agreeable premises (please clarify if I've put words into your mouth or missed your argument entirely):

If a card cannot help form any broken deck, then it isn't a broken card.
Hermit Druid Breakfast.dec would not be a broken deck.
Cards that are not broken should be unbanned (or continue to be not banned).

I realize most would dissent on (2), but that is not how I've understood your position. Forgive me if I have this wrong, and feel free to elaborate.

My assumption:

Hermit Druid's only way to help form a broken deck is in Hermit Druid Breakfast.dec.

Based on the above assumption, we should be able to conclude that Hermit Druid isn't a broken card and Hermit Druid should be unbanned. I certainly admit this is an assumption, but to go on and rant that this "is not any kind of an argument for unbanning a card" (among your other witty one-liners) isn't very charitable at all (which, I am sure that you learned about "being charitable to the argument" on day 1 in your introductory logic class). Surely this is a reasonable argument, even by your own personal standards.

Now, I said that your argument is equally fallacious to mine. Let's look at it. Your assumptions (again, please correct me if I've misrepresented your argument):

If a card is similar in 'game-ending' abilities and costs to another card, then judgments of brokenness/unbrokenness on one card should apply to the other.
Hermit Druid is similar in 'game-ending' abilities and costs to Survival of the Fittest.
Survival of the Fittest isn't broken.
Therefore, Hermit Druid isn't broken.

All of us can agree to (3), but surely you can see that (1) and (2) are not easy to swallow. I would certainly say you've made assumptions, and in fact, I think your assumptions are much less plausible than mine.

Surely you can see why I'm perplexed that you would call my argument 'fallacious', based on the assumption, and your argument is somehow immune to the same judgment. If your argument is somehow valid, and your assumptions don't cause a fallacy, then why would that same standard not apply to my argument? And, if neither of our arguments are good enough for you, then I ask you again: 'what other factors are required for a valid argument for the banning and unbanning of a card? '

peace,
4eak

Finn

08-04-2009, 03:28 PM

Damnit 4freak. I was having fun and now you go and post something intelligent.

I never called your arguments fallacious, as you wisely did not post a decklist and then say "See, it's not broken."
This, however
So you've substituted the "deck X does not break card Y" argument for "card X is like card Y, and card Y isn't broken, so neither is card X"? You're reasoning isn't very valid either by your own standard.calls into question something that is easily rebutted. You may not have liked my demonstration that not all arguments are created equal, but the early ones being made in this thread were logically nonsensical where mine is completely defensible. The conversation needed to get past that early stage of nebulous speculation before we could talk about the topic meaningfully.

And I have been entirely open about the frailty of my position - of any. It is impossible to have a completely solid argument about a topic that can not be properly tested (because, ya know - it's banned), and any claim to the contrary should be treated as foolish. It's all just approximation at that point.

So we are using different tools as metrics. Both of these are incomplete as measuring tools and thus require the inductive reasoning you have been noting.

For my part, Welder style Survival can be built with blue and with a bare minimum number of toolbox cards to go combo style. But over time, players eventually decide they don't like the fragility of the deck despite all the protections blue offers. So you have to supplement Survival with a strong plan B. But then it is pretty hard to focus the deck adequately and it settles into mediocrity. My guess is that Hermit Druid, as an even easier target to disrupt than Survival, and with roughly the same number of support cards would be in the same boat at best. Now clearly Druids would make Breakfast better. But seeing as how it is no good right now, we are again having to use induction.

So there is no perfect system here. My beef was with the weakness of the line of thought based on the OP and being used at the time I mentioned it.

Oh, and about the sharp tongue, you should disregard all the stuff pointed at lavafrogg. Those posts *really* are intended to make him laugh.

Jak

08-04-2009, 03:43 PM

... I never called your arguments fallacious, as you wisely did not post a decklist and then say "See, it's not broken." ...

I'm guessing this is directed at me. I was just sharing the experience. I don't even recall saying Hermit Druid was not broken, just the deck I posted, so if you were assuming I am now all for the unbanning of Hermit Druid, you are wrong.

The only thing I don't like about the card is that it does mean a win if it stays in play for a turn. There is removal, but do we want to go back to the "Lackey" days?

Gheizen64

08-04-2009, 06:17 PM

DragoFireheart

08-04-2009, 06:21 PM

Wait, are you saying that you think Modus Tollens is something I made up? Really? That is like an adult who has never been taught arithmetic asking me to provide evidence of subtraction.

Yes, I totally said that the theory is false and imaginary. /sarcasm

Gee, could your strawman be any more obvious? In a trolling mood today? :laugh:

DragoFireheart

08-04-2009, 06:22 PM

Jak

08-04-2009, 08:49 PM

Except Lackey cost 1, and that's a HUGE difference.

Also goblin doesn't need Lackey to start rolling, it's just another strong card added to the mass.
Druid is alone in what it tries to do. And it needs you to play so many bad card. I just can't see a two mana 1/1 creature that have to untap to play a 25/25 trampling creature with haste (and you die to fog, bounce, burn, instant card-draw etc) breaking the format.

Yes, it does, but it doesn't stop people from trying to get Druid out there turn one with a Mox or just play it turn two. Decks will have to run cheap removal. Although, most decks do run cheap removal already so it won't be a huge change.

And the combo is pretty small. I mean, you can run upwards of 15 protection spells (and Therapy will always be there to protect Ghoul coming into play) in the deck. Again, the combo is vulnerable, but you would be running a large number of counters, discard, etc to ensure that you get it to work.