Madness in Legacy?

[ShadowOfTitans]

How well does UG Madness stack up in legacy nowdays? Obviously it isn't a DTB, but it seems like it should be able to do as well as most other creature aggro based decks in the format. I know it was still a great deck in the format a few years ago when I quit playing magic, but now it seems like a 'tier 2' deck at best.

How much better would a ug threshold or ugw fish deck be?

[LostButSeeking]

The absolute last deck in the established deck forums is UG Madness Aggro Control. It hasn't been posted on in almost a year. The consensus seems to be that it is almost strictly worse than thresh. You could probably make a budget thresh list that would perform better against most decks than UG Madness.

[kicks_422]

I have a veeeeery budget UG Madness list that I'm thinking of building if I continue with my plan to retire from the game for a while, just so I'd have a deck to play whenever I feel like it. Testing in MWS against established and tier Legacy decks has surprised me - it doesn't always win, but it sure still packs a punch, at the very least. Seems that flying 4/4 Tramplers and 6/6 Wurms still get the job done.

[AngryTroll]

The catch when you start to put together a Madness list is that if you're not building on a budget, 4 Tarmogoyf should be in the list for sure. If you start looking for cards to cut to fit him in, he's better than Roar of the Wurm and Arrogant Wurm. That's awkward. Aquamoeba got worse with combat damage not stacking, which is also awkward.

To add 4 Goyf, the weakest slot is probably Aquamoeba or Waterfront Bouncer, but you need those for the Wurms and Wonders. So, you can some number of Wurms to add Goyfs, but that makes Aquamoeba even less impressive.

On the other hand, Wonder + Goyf is pretty strong. Wild Mongrel is still a pretty efficient beater, and the deck does pack a pretty good disruption package (but no Counterbalances).

Thresh's biggest advantage is that it can pack a creature base of similar power into a shell with Swords, Top, Counterbalance, and some Ponders because it doesn't use as many slots for creatures.

[Tacosnape]

Madness has taken a lot of hits. Tarmogoyf was printed, which means it either needs to -run- Tarmogoyf or get around it, and the obvious choice to do so (Relic of Progenitus) doesn't play nice with Circular Logic, a former staple of the deck.

It took another blow in M10, which made Aquamoeba far less the sneaky hobgoblin it once was.

There is synergy between Tarmogoyf and Wild Mongrel, however, and these two powerhouse 2-drops can still give you a fighting shot. I'm not sure I'd favor splashing blue over black, however, which gives you access to things like Zombie Infestation and Big Game Hunter.

[AngryTroll]

There is synergy between Tarmogoyf and Wild Mongrel, however, and these two powerhouse 2-drops can still give you a fighting shot. I'm not sure I'd favor splashing blue over black, however, which gives you access to things like Zombie Infestation and Big Game Hunter.

I forgot about this option. You definetly keep blue as a splash for Wonder, but Aquamoeba can easily become one of several good options. Putrid Imp and Oona's Prowler are both decent choices. Losing Force of Will is rough, but if you don't have enough blue cards to cover it, you can run Thoughtseize. Big Game Hunter seems solid.

[chokin]

Splashing black gives you good removal too. Smother, Snuff Out or Edict. It also gives you the option of Thoughtseize or Duress.

But yeah, budget Thresh (or CounterTop as they call it now) is probably going to beat out Madness. They used to have a Budget Thresh list rolling around the forums somewhere.

Without fetch, you could build an old school UGw Thresh deck pretty cheap and then fill it out into newer builds fairly easily. Madness is just not that strong anymore, and you'd end up upgrading it to Thresh anyways.

[ShadowOfTitans]

Here is the list for madness that I'm considering right now, which is very obviously a budget build :smile:


UG Madness
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Aquamoeba
2 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Wonder
4 Arrogant Wurm
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede

21 creatures

4 Daze
4 Circular Logic
2 Deep Analysis
2 Gifts Ungiven (probably could be intuition, if I wanted to pay for them)
1 Roar of the Wurm
4 Careful Study

17 spells

3 City of Brass
4 Yavimaya Coast (or UG Shockland, or Tropical Island, for non-budget)
8 Forest
7 Island

22 land

Sideboard:
2 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Trickbind (or stifle for non-budget)
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
3 Energy Flux
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Blue Elemental Blast

This is somewhat similar to a build I used long ago in PTQ season for extended, except I used intuitions instead of the gifts toolbox. The inclusion of the one eternal witness makes the gifts engine a little more flexible than an intuition engine which I have always found needs to run at least 3 copies of any of the stuff you'd want to get. 14 total discard outlets always seemed to be the magic number for me in the past, and I'll stick with that number for this build.

Inclusions of gigapede and genesis in the sideboard can give some control decks fits. Gifts for Gigs, Genesis, Witness, and a 4th target makes for a pretty good card advantage engine.

[Media314r8]

I'm surprized noone has mentioned merfolk looter or looter il-kor as a replacement for aquamoeba. The consensus is that moeba is garbage, and is really only there as a madness outlet. Looters serve the same purpose, but il-kor carries a jitte like a champ and both give you CA when then madness something down. merfolk looter obviously has the advantage of still being able to effectivly madness C logic, while both throw down wurms, rootwallas, and wonders just fine, as well as improve CQ when you don't have madness cards, where as moeba just stood there being an awkward dude.

[ShadowOfTitans]

A good portion of the time, aquamoeba can be a 3 power flyer for a small synergistic investment. If you are playing more control with force of will, etc, Merfolk Looters are probably better, but if you want to go more beatdown, aquamoeba can help you win the damage race more often than not.

I have never played with looter il-kor, I might try it out. Seems like the doesn't do much for an aggro version if you don't have a jitte equipped to him, where 'moeba is a madness outlet +2 power when compared to il-kor.

[kicks_422]

Also, Aquamoeba, along with Wild Mongrel and Waterfront Bouncer (which has surprisingly been one of the most powerful cards in the deck), allow you play your madness cards at instant speed. These combat tricks are a major part of what makes Madness so fun to play - awesome synergy with every single card with each other.

[Barsoom]

Can you post your budget list, kicks_422?

[kicks_422]

Sure.

4 Terramorphic Expanse
6 Forest
10 Island

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Roar of the Wurm
4 Wonder

4 Daze
4 Circular Logic
4 Deep Analysis

SB
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Hydroblast
3 Back to Basics

I know it lacks card draw, with probably 2 Wonders and 2 Roars to be cut for.. Careful Study? However, I'm not really going to fine tune it more as it's just a budget list, and also because 6/6 flying Wurms are easier to get if you have 4 of each of them.

[claudio.r]

If you pick Roland Chang 2006 legacy champion list:

//Main
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Aquamoeba
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Stifle
2 Wonder
2 Deep Analysis
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Island

//Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Hail Storm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod’s Crypt

wich is pretty outdated, but still a list hat went for 6 months or so of tuning. And try to modify it to fit today's meta, maybe you'll get something that will not be tier1 but a list that can win a lot of games against unprepared players.

To consider:

Tarmogoyf
Waterfront Bouncer
4 stifle + 4 wasteland for a more disruptive package
even natural order + progenitus

will be working on a decklist just for fun.