MTG says: Tarmogoyf will not make the ban list [Archive]

kabal

08-07-2009, 09:30 AM

Embedded in a MTG daily article regarding From the Vault: Exiled (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/50) (newest box set from Wizards), we get a bit of information about Tarmogoyf and his future. Based on the below highlighted statement, does that close the book on anymore discussion about Tarmogoyf's stay in Legacy?

Kird Ape

Some may be confused by the presence of Kird Ape on this list, but it was on the very first Extended banned list. The card was considered to be too powerful a creature for the format, so it was removed. Oddly, that same format also contained far sicker spells like Necropotence. It's quite rare that a creature built only to attack and block causes serious problems, and that is why you no longer find things like Kird Ape or Tarmogoyf on our modern banned lists.

JeroenC

08-07-2009, 09:34 AM

Oh. What a surprise. I totally did not see this coming. They totally have not said things that boil down to this a million times. Oh no.

Nessaja

08-07-2009, 09:45 AM

I think all discussions about Tarmogoyf haven't been about if he will hit the banlist but if he should make the banlist. That Wizards isn't banning vanilla creatures anymore is... really old news.

Mark Sun

08-07-2009, 10:37 AM

I'm not surprised. It's a great creature, I admit it's severely undercosted for what it brings to the table, but people need to get over it.

Mantis

08-07-2009, 10:43 AM

I had a lot of problems accepting the presence of Goyf in the format, but I finally learned to construct my decks in such a fashion that Goyf is no longer troublesome, at least to me. Right now, I fully support not banning Goyf.

conboy31

08-07-2009, 12:21 PM

I think all discussions about Tarmogoyf haven't been about if he will hit the banlist but if he should make the banlist. That Wizards isn't banning vanilla creatures anymore is... really old news.

Right, that is at least the perspective I have seen on the discussions about tarm.

pi4meterftw

08-07-2009, 12:52 PM

Right, that is at least the perspective I have seen on the discussions about tarm.

tarmogoyf is only vanilla lolololol.

rockout

08-07-2009, 01:06 PM

This FTV: Exiled is going to be so unbelievably sought after that I wish wizards would offer one to every person to buy at a somewhat reasonable price not the hundreds of dollars I know it will go for on eBay.

Adan

08-07-2009, 01:22 PM

When was Kird Ape banned? It was like... 1995? At that time, Juzam Djinn and Ihsan's Shade were the biggest creatures available and the old Necropotence decks played strange versions of Nantuko Shade (Order of the Ebon Hand & Knight of Stromgald).

Now in the Old Format, imagine how Kird Ape just outclasses Savannah Lions by far and in combination with Lightning Bolts and Incinerates it was a very fast clock (and toughness 3 was extremely hard to kill).

And nowadays? Juzam Djinn is no more amazing and we have creatures like Wooly Thoctar, Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf.

The level of the creatures have risen in general which makes Tamogoyf actually quite balanced in this environment.

beastman

08-07-2009, 01:29 PM

Those berserks are sexy as hell.

Volt

08-07-2009, 01:34 PM

The level of the creatures have risen in general which makes Tamogoyf actually quite balanced in this environment.

I don't know about "quite balanced." I think we've all just gotten used to having Goofy around. It's amazing what you can get used to. Btw, those other creatures you mentioned (Wild Nacatl and Woolly Thoctar) are pretty good creatures, but they're both basically only playable in one deck (Zoo). The biggest argument against goyf has always been that he too easily fits into just about every deck in the format. But whatever. We don't need another vitriolic debate about goyf. He's here to stay, and I think we've all pretty much reconciled ourselves with that fact.

Roman Candle

08-08-2009, 03:12 AM

This set really pisses me off, as a player with very limited funds. I'll never be able to afford these, and I would have really liked to get to play with Berserks, since I'm not shelling out $75 a pop for the originals and I'm definitely not going to pay the most likely rediculous prices for these.

EDIT: Does anyone know if these will be available on MTGO?

EDIT2: It's admittedly kinda cool that they put Tezzeret on Tinker. If that's actually Tezz.

ParkerLewis

08-08-2009, 06:47 AM

This set really pisses me off, as a player with very limited funds. I'll never be able to afford these, and I would have really liked to get to play with Berserks, since I'm not shelling out $75 a pop for the originals and I'm definitely not going to pay the most likely rediculous prices for these.

...

What bastards ! They made additional copies of a card you want to play with, without making it legal in any format they're already legal in ??

What bastards. Way to get pissed off man !

Adan

08-08-2009, 07:13 AM

I don't know about "quite balanced." I think we've all just gotten used to having Goofy around. It's amazing what you can get used to. Btw, those other creatures you mentioned (Wild Nacatl and Woolly Thoctar) are pretty good creatures, but they're both basically only playable in one deck (Zoo). The biggest argument against goyf has always been that he too easily fits into just about every deck in the format. But whatever. We don't need another vitriolic debate about goyf. He's here to stay, and I think we've all pretty much reconciled ourselves with that fact.

You are right, my explanation might sound sloppy, but what I wanted to say was just that creatures are becoming bigger and cheaper in general. That's why Mystic Enforcer for example has pretty much lost his good status (he was once the biggest creature played in the Legacy format). But now he's outclassed by Goyf etc.

I'd buy 4 of them if the'd cost about 30-35 bucks as announced but frankly, Strip Mine is the only card I am interested in currently. I would never play a deck with Berserks, but I am curious which decks will emerge with the boosted availability. But Hulk Smash would be extremely lol. O___o

M.Maddox

08-09-2009, 07:08 PM

The problem with Goyf is that it's 1G, meaning everything that has green in it, or can have green in it, will, simply for goyf. This removes creativity from the game, IMO.

You'll notice that every time Wizards produces a crap set, they make an "oh shit" card, so people with buy the set. Goyf (and jitte, anyone?) are obvious "oh shit, buy this set!" cards.

Van Phanel

08-09-2009, 07:12 PM

Where is that card from Masques? I want a year of my time back.

pi4meterftw

08-09-2009, 08:54 PM

DrJones

08-09-2009, 09:22 PM

Where is that card from Masques? I want a year of my time back.Gush, Snuff Out, and Misdirection. but I don't think anyone would buy Masques just for those cards; they would rather buy singles. It was a better set that Invasion, though. That one was total junk.

Edit: Except Fact or Fiction, of course.

MTG-Fan

08-10-2009, 12:27 AM

DrJones: Enchantress would like to have a word with you.

pw709

08-10-2009, 02:27 AM

What're you talking about...Future Sight was awesome! Aside from enabling one of the most potent and interesting decks of all time, it had tons of intriguing cards for all formats:

Aven Mindcensor
Bridge from Below
Dryad Arbor
Epochrasite
Gathan Raiders
Glittering Wish
Horizon Canopy
Magus of the Moon
Narcomoeba
Pact of Negation
Pyromancer's Swath
Slaughter Pact
Street Wraith
Summoner's Pact
Tarmogoyf
Tolaria West
Tombstalker
Venser
Yixlid Jailer

Aside from Goyfs obvious impact, the set basically helped create/transform two staple legacy decks: Ichorid and Dragon Stompy. I think it's one of the most influential and creative sets of all time.

As far as Masques goes, well I won't go into that, as my unnatural love for it goes beyond the realm of rational understanding. :smile:

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 02:37 AM

I think it's funny that something only mentioned as a sidenote has inspired so much conversation. Wasn't it both obvious and well-deserved that goyf would not get banned? Maybe a while ago it wasn't well-deserved (although I would think for most it was quite obvious) but now that other creatures of a similar calibur exist, it is also well-deserved.

Right. Because of all the creatures that see even a fraction of the play of Goyf which are real in a very real and legally binding sense.

Wizards being stupid about bannings is nothing new. It's funny that Necro was brought up in that sentence, since they also spent ages banning everything but Necro in Extended.

Mr. Fix it

08-10-2009, 02:46 AM

damn it ban tarmogoyf already, its over used, just like trinisphere and mishra workshop were. infact theres couple guys with signatures on this website that goes something to the effect of goyfgoblins, goyfloam, goyfsoup, and etc. it would force some alternative thinking into the format after 2 years of goyfgoblins, goyfloam, goyfsoup, and etc.

but i cannot dismiss it is a good card which i'm somewhat happy to use from time to time.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38235.0

MTG-Fan

08-10-2009, 03:51 AM

The fundamental fact is that Goyf is nothing more than a vanilla creature: the most efficiently costed vanilla creature in the history of the game, but a vanilla creature nonetheless.

There is no reason to ban a card that is simply very efficient; it is not game-breaking, any more than Swords to Plowshares is game-breaking because it is an extremely efficient removal spell that happens to be every deck's default choice for a removal spell, as Goyf is almost every deck's default choice for its primary beater.

pi4meterftw

08-10-2009, 04:09 AM

That principal cannot be stated in the form you have it; it cannot be fully general, or else one has the following obvious contradiction.

nice 20/20 for G. It's only an efficient beater though.

pi4meterftw

08-10-2009, 04:31 AM

Right. Because of all the creatures that see even a fraction of the play of Goyf which are real in a very real and legally binding sense.

While it is possible to type out any string of characters, I do not see that this string of characters actually codes for any meaningful idea. Perhaps the intention was to code for something meaningful, in which case it does actually do so, and I just don't see it. If that is the case, please clarify.

I'll acknowledge that you actually stringed the letters into words, but if the words weren't intended to carry meaning, then nevermind.

It is true that whether or not tarmogoyf deserves to be banned was an opinion issue, even though whether or not it would be banned was not. Therefore, I can't actually accuse those believing that tarmogoyf should be banned of being wrong. It does make sense, however, to attempt to persuade the opposition, and I certainly thing that when 2 mana can counterbalance, standstill, hymn to tourach, lightning helix/terror, survival of the fittest, burning wish, dark confidant, qasali pridemage etc. and 1 mana can weathered wayfarer, ancestral vision, aether vial, swords, etc. and 0 mana can counter target spell that 1G had better make at least a 4/4, and then a 4/5 isn't pushing it too hard. Sure it's a 5/6 sometimes, but it's also sometimes a 3/4, and then it can be walled out/reduced by relic and grunt respectively, without card advantage loss. In fact, relic to answer a goyf seems to favor the relic player, because it stops all opposing goyfs and still draws a card. But even if this is ignored, it's still usually a 1G for a 4/5. That's a great creature, and it's on par with other things you can do for 2 mana. It's only about +0/+1 more powerful than other cards you could play, and that definitely doesn't deserve the banning, in my view.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 09:22 AM

While it is possible to type out any string of characters, I do not see that this string of characters actually codes for any meaningful idea. Perhaps the intention was to code for something meaningful, in which case it does actually do so, and I just don't see it. If that is the case, please clarify.

I'll acknowledge that you actually stringed the letters into words, but if the words weren't intended to carry meaning, then nevermind.

Funnily enough, you wrote these sentences extraordinarily poorly.

It is true that whether or not tarmogoyf deserves to be banned was an opinion issue, even though whether or not it would be banned was not. Therefore, I can't actually accuse those believing that tarmogoyf should be banned of being wrong. It does make sense, however, to attempt to persuade the opposition, and I certainly thing that when 2 mana can counterbalance, standstill, hymn to tourach, lightning helix/terror, survival of the fittest, burning wish, dark confidant, qasali pridemage etc. and 1 mana can weathered wayfarer, ancestral vision, aether vial, swords, etc. and 0 mana can counter target spell that 1G had better make at least a 4/4, and then a 4/5 isn't pushing it too hard. Sure it's a 5/6 sometimes, but it's also sometimes a 3/4, and then it can be walled out/reduced by relic and grunt respectively, without card advantage loss. In fact, relic to answer a goyf seems to favor the relic player, because it stops all opposing goyfs and still draws a card. But even if this is ignored, it's still usually a 1G for a 4/5. That's a great creature, and it's on par with other things you can do for 2 mana. It's only about +0/+1 more powerful than other cards you could play, and that definitely doesn't deserve the banning, in my view.

Except that Goyf gets far, far more copies into top 8s than any of those cards, and as a much more central component of any deck. The only spells that see more play are Brainstorm and Force of Will; which at least don't have the effect of tending to make other spells more obsolete.

This is like taking Skullclamp T2 and insisting that Skullclamp isn't any more broken than Skirk Prospector or Disciple of the Vault.

The fundamental fact is that Goyf is nothing more than a vanilla creature: the most efficiently costed vanilla creature in the history of the game, but a vanilla creature nonetheless.

There is no reason to ban a card that is simply very efficient; it is not game-breaking, any more than Swords to Plowshares is game-breaking because it is an extremely efficient removal spell that happens to be every deck's default choice for a removal spell, as Goyf is almost every deck's default choice for its primary beater.

Is Ancestral Recall simply an efficient Concentrate? Yawgmoth's Bargain just an efficient greed?

Your argument is meaningless.

DrJones

08-10-2009, 09:37 AM

The only spells that see more play are Brainstorm and Force of Will; which at least don't have the effect of tending to make other spells more obsolete.That impression is totally wrong, dude. Force of Will and Brainstorm are even worse offenders than Tarmogoyf, but their effect is just not as visible because you probably don't remember the cards that were played before they got printed, and you don't think about the cards that were printed later but never got played because of those two cards. :eek:

Edit: I said dude because IBA is the only one I would trust to rescue the president from ninjas.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 09:50 AM

Skeggi

08-10-2009, 09:53 AM

Here's a question: if Tarmogoyf would be banned, how much green would you see in your meta?

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 10:09 AM

I don't know of any otherwise efficient spells in other colors that see zero play, even in non-blue decks, because they can't beat Force or Brainstorm in a fist fight.

But your confidence is appreciated.

You're deflecting the point. Of course there aren't any cards "in other colors" that are obsoleted by Force of Will. Other colors rarely get "Counter Target Spell." However, not many people are playing Counterspell. Fewer still are playing Rewind, or Thwart, or Foil - which are all "free" by the same definition of Force being free.

Very few spells allow you to see multiple cards at instant speed, even in blue. The efficiency of Brainstorm renders cards like Slight of Hand, Opt, Serum Visions, Impulse, and Telling Time unplayable in non-High Tide decks.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 10:36 AM

Which is fantastic. No one said that Force and Brainstorm weren't good points. Except

1) People don't splash just for them and one sideboard card.

2) People don't stop running other control cards because they can't compete with Force, or other card manipulation cards because they can't compete with Brainstorm. Lots of creatures don't see play because they can't compete with Tarmogoyf.

3) Counterspells aren't a fundamental part of the game the way creatures are.

More importantly, Force of Will and Brainstorm aren't ubiquitous. Tarmogoyf is.

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 10:57 AM

Which is fantastic. No one said that Force and Brainstorm weren't good points. Except

1) People don't splash just for them and one sideboard card.
Force of Will is inherently un-splashable. You can't exactly use it to its full potential if you don't run other blue cards.

As for Brainstorm - http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8462

2) People don't stop running other control cards because they can't compete with Force, or other card manipulation cards because they can't compete with Brainstorm. Lots of creatures don't see play because they can't compete with Tarmogoyf.I just gave you more than one example of cards that aren't run since Force exists, and cards that aren't run because Brainstorm exists. Why is it that you just ignore and/or dismiss points that you don't agree with?

3) Counterspells aren't a fundamental part of the game the way creatures are. I disagree. However, they are less prevalent, mostly due to Wizards realizing that the casual market generally dislikes having their opponent say "No."

More importantly, Force of Will and Brainstorm aren't ubiquitous. Tarmogoyf is.

The only spells that see more play are Brainstorm and Force of Will
Which is it, then, Jack?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 11:16 AM

Force of Will is inherently un-splashable. You can't exactly use it to its full potential if you don't run other blue cards.

Holy shit, you don't say.

As for Brainstorm - http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8462

I assumed we were talking about decks with actual tangible results.

I just gave you more than one example of cards that aren't run since Force exists, and cards that aren't run because Brainstorm exists. Why is it that you just ignore and/or dismiss points that you don't agree with?

You don't seem to get it, so I'll break it down.

Under the old creature structure, Phyrexian Negator may stop Dross Harvester from seeing play, and Silver Knight may edge out Order of Leitbur.

What didn't happen was that black decks and white decks and blue and red decks were all forced to drop their beaters and splash for Wild Mongrel.

You had competing economies of creatures and spells. What Tarmogoyf does is obsolete very nearly any other investment that can be made. The only exceptions are creatures with the entire deck built around it ala Terravore, Goblin Lackey, or card advantage creatures such as Dark Confidant or Sower of Temptation.

I disagree. However, they are less prevalent, mostly due to Wizards realizing that the casual market generally dislikes having their opponent say "No."

Then you're wrong.

Creatures are and always have been the dominant strategy in Magic. They are how decks tend to win. In every color. Counterspells form a dominant strategy in one color.

There's kind of a difference.

Which is it, then, Jack?

Brainstorm and Force of Will are the only cards that have more top 8's on Deckcheck, which includes results from before Tarmogoyf was printed. Tarmogoyf, however, is in every strategy, even including tribal ones.

Although, once again, arguing for banning Brainstorm and Force of Will doesn't amount to arguing that Tarmogoyf shouldn't be banned.

Tacosnape

08-10-2009, 11:20 AM

Except that Goyf gets far, far more copies into top 8s than any of those cards, and as a much more central component of any deck. The only spells that see more play are Brainstorm and Force of Will; which at least don't have the effect of tending to make other spells more obsolete.

They don't? Nobody plays the other pitch counters before maxing out on Force of Will, and only in decks without fetchlands do people play 1cc cantrip spells before maxing out on Brainstorms. The same is generally true about white removal and Swords to Plowshares.

Making other cards obsolete isn't a case for banning. Whatever the -best- unbanned card is at doing something is going to be the best of its kind.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 11:28 AM

Pitch counters, 1cc cantrips, and white spot removal are fucking narrow categories.

"Creatures" is not. "Kill conditions" is not.

How dense are you, really?

Cards can be the best in a narrow niche and not be busted. That leaves plenty of room for adaption and innovation.

Not so with Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is part of the best strategy in the format. Before knowing what else is in it, we know the best strategy involves Tarmogoyf (although I think Legacy essentially is a solved problem at this point).

Ectoplasm

08-10-2009, 11:42 AM

Best strategy outside of landstill, goblins, merfolk and a whole bunch of combo :)

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 11:44 AM

Creatures are and always have been the dominant strategy in Magic. They are how decks tend to win. In every color. Counterspells form a dominant strategy in one color.Considering the fact that you're unwilling to accept that one color is allowed to splash another for win conditions - or at least, that they aren't allowed to splash for the -best- win conditions (even if they have forever), then blue, at the very least, hasn't always relied on creatures to win.

Tarmogoyf, however, is in every strategy, even including tribal ones.
The only Tribal Strategy still Running Goyf is Elves, and they aren't splashing it. Merfolk was, but they now run either the new lord, or Wake Thrasher.

Under the old creature structure, Phyrexian Negator may stop Dross Harvester from seeing play, and Silver Knight may edge out Order of Leitbur.

What didn't happen was that black decks and white decks and blue and red decks were all forced to drop their beaters and splash for Wild Mongrel.

You had competing economies of creatures and spells. What Tarmogoyf does is obsolete very nearly any other investment that can be made. The only exceptions are creatures with the entire deck built around it ala Terravore, Goblin Lackey, or card advantage creatures such as Dark Confidant or Sower of Temptation.Let's consider decks that actually existed (in THIS format, not in extended or standard) before Goyf.

Thresh played Werebear. It's another green dude that they splashed for. You weren't complaining then.
Burn played Dryad. It's another green dude they splashed for. You weren't complaining then.
Eva Green played Negator and Bolts. They splashed Red. You weren't complaining then.
Zoo was a joke. Aggro Loam was better as 43 Lands. Survival played Werebear or a bunch of colors for other dudes. UG madness played Mongrel, but sucked.

Now, I completely agree that Goyf found its way into all of those decks (well, no one plays Madness, but it would be in that deck if it didn't suck). But let's be fair. With the exception of Eva Green, ALL of those decks were already playing green for whatever the best green beater for their needs happened to be at the time. To me, and perhaps only to me (which I'm fine with), it's not that great a stretch for them to shift to a better creature when it comes along. In the case of Aggro Loam, it still wasn't enough until Crusher was printed, giving them 3 guys that were good.

I firmly believe that in the current metagame there are tons of other threats being played. Merfolk runs 20 or more non-Goyf creatures. As does Survival Elves. As does Goblins. Countertop decks are still running Goyf, but Quasali Pridemage is hanging in there, too, along with stuff like Trygon Predator.

I guess I don't understand the complaint. If you're running cards that a) your deck isn't built to break (Lackey, Terravore), b) aren't a form of card advantage (Confidant, Sower), and c) aren't the most efficient threat you can choose (Goyf, Figure, Naught, Progenitus), then what the fuck are you playing?

Nessaja

08-10-2009, 11:46 AM

Thresh played Werebear. It's another green dude that they splashed for. You weren't complaining then.
That perfectly fitted their strategy.

Burn played Dryad. It's another green dude they splashed for. You weren't complaining then.
See above

Eva Green played Negator and Bolts. They splashed Red. You weren't complaining then.
Do you not notice that all these decks are splashing different things, isn't that exactly the whole point?

Zoo was a joke. Aggro Loam was better as 43 Lands. Survival played Werebear or a bunch of colors for other dudes. UG madness played Mongrel, but sucked.
Atleast those decks weren't all splashing for the same thing and atleast adding cards that added to their strategy. Tarmogoyf is like a swiss army knife. It fits in everywhere.

Anyway, you can't compare Brainstorm to Tarmogoyf, no matter how much it's played. It's like saying that Brainstorm is the best instant and obsoletes Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict. Brainstorm does not make instants across all colors obsolete, Tarmogoyf does make creatures across all colors obsolete.

With the exception of combo(painter is sort of a combo win..) and burn all decks want to win by playing creatures eventually, all colors are splashing for green to get the best creature, the same isn't happening nearly as much even for instants or sorceries let alone niche spells like best cantrip, best burn spell, best removal best counter. I'm not saying no deck does but it by no means compares to the spread of Tarmogoyf.

Now, all of this is moot anyway, yes Tarmogoyf makes the format boring, yes we would probably be better off without but yes Wizards won't realize that anyway. So it doesn't even matter.

Just to react what the problem is, it's a matter of preference. I think a format with card variety is more healthy then a format without. When there's 28 Tarmogoyfs in a top 8 it just doesn't strike me as something that is good for the format.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 11:48 AM

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 11:50 AM

Adam, you just said,

"You weren't complaining when lots of decks were splashing different cards and colors to suit their strengths, but now that everyone's splashing the exact same cards you're complaining."

Yes. Yes I am. Because there's a world of difference between lots of diverse decks with different strategies and cards that complement those strategies and a bunch of Goyfdecks.

Are you even trying?

Show me a deck that wasn't splashing green before Goyf, that is now, because of it.

Other than Eva Green, which I'll concede. I don't think that deck is good anyway. (Sorry Anwar and co)

Tacosnape

08-10-2009, 11:56 AM

Pitch counters, 1cc cantrips, and white spot removal are fucking narrow categories.

"Creatures" is not. "Kill conditions" is not.

Perhaps it's you that's dense, as everybody seems to agree Tarmogoyf isn't overpowered and is capable of living in the present rather than you, who would rather present a gloriously sarcastic epic tale to illustrate otherwise.

For the actual counter to your point, "Green" creatures is. Green Creatures is every bit as narrow as White spot removal. Don't make the argument that people splash green for Tarmogoyf. People splash White for Swords to Plowshares. In my opinion, they're every bit even on the power pole. There's a million substitutes for either one, but none quite as good.

Nessaja

08-10-2009, 11:57 AM

Show me a deck that wasn't splashing green before Goyf, that is now, because of it.
I think you got that point but I don't believe that's the issue.

There's a difference between including a creature that fits your strategy very well (Terravore, Countryside Crusher, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Goblin Lackey, Quirion Dryad, Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, Nantuko Shade/Tombstalker) and adding a creature because he simply rules supreme over all other creatures. The first is a sign of good and clever deck design, the second does the opposite and actually takes away creativity.

@Taco, StP is by far not the most played card in the format.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 11:57 AM

Valtrix

08-10-2009, 12:00 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 12:01 PM

Perhaps it's you that's dense, as everybody seems to agree Tarmogoyf isn't overpowered and is capable of living in the present rather than you, who would rather present a gloriously sarcastic epic tale to illustrate otherwise.

You want to pull the bandwagon card? Because I'm pretty sure we've got a poll around here that makes you look like a goddamn idiot.

For the actual counter to your point, "Green" creatures is. Green Creatures is every bit as narrow as White spot removal. Don't make the argument that people splash green for Tarmogoyf. People splash White for Swords to Plowshares. In my opinion, they're every bit even on the power pole. There's a million substitutes for either one, but none quite as good.

People splash white for StP incidentally. They may incidentally decide to run burn or creature stealing instead. They may just run the slightly inferior Smother or Snuff Out.

What people can't do is just run a worse creature in color over Tarmogoyf. Because Tarmogoyf will trash it on the battlefield.

This is part of what makes Tarmogoyf so distorting.

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 12:02 PM

Let's cut right to the heart of the issue. For all intents and purposes, we're talking about Thresh, and maybe burn. Thresh is the "Best deck" in the format, and burn is the only other deck that's relevant that splashes green for threats.

What "greater purpose" did Werebear or Quirion Dryad serve? Neither one of them did anything other than attack. You could make the argument that Werebear was accelleration or whatever, but it's barely relevant. He was played because he was a 2 mana 4/4, with barely any drawback. Goyf gets printed, and hey! Here's a 2 mana 5/6, with LESS drawback. Sure, you lose the tap for a green, but that wasn't really that important anyway.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 12:03 PM

Thanks for being specific. I don't even think you're addressing the question.

To be honest with you, I don't see decks in Legacy anymore. All I see are shells. We've devolved into Vintage. You have your burn-Goyf shell, your Hymn-Goyf shell, and your counter-Goyf shell. Then people pick some random cards and maybe another couple colors to build around those. Some people also play weird control-Goyf contraptions with deeds and shackles and Intuitions and stuff.

It's impossible for me to answer the question more than that because the only decks left in Legacy are tribal and Ichorid.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 12:04 PM

Tacosnape

08-10-2009, 12:10 PM

You want to pull the bandwagon card? Because I'm pretty sure we've got a poll around here that makes you look like a goddamn idiot.

And I think you and roughly 50% of The Source is a fucking douchebag. Doesn't make you remotely correct about Tarmogoyf.

People splash white for StP incidentally. They may incidentally decide to run burn or creature stealing instead. They may just run the slightly inferior Smother or Snuff Out.

What people can't do is just run a worse creature in color over Tarmogoyf. Because Tarmogoyf will trash it on the battlefield

In a vacuum, where it's Goyf versus Not Goyf, then usually yes, Goyf will win. Except there's a billion other factors to be considered. Tombstalker can sometimes outdo Goyf by shrinking it and being an evasive, 4-turn clock. Goblin Lackey and Tarmogoyf will often come to a stalemate, because neither one wants to swing. Grim Lavamancer can keep a Goyf in check, often to the 2/3-3/4 range. Wren's Run Vanquisher will trade with it and can sometimes take it down in the first turn or two. Exalted Angel can outrace it. Sower of Temptation can steal it. Shriekmaw can destroy it. Loaming Shaman can shrink it. And it's vulnerable to every form of spot removal run in Legacy, as well as arguably the most common piece of graveyard hate, Relic of Progenitus.

In no way does Tarmogoyf wreck this format.

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 12:10 PM

(At least) every other deck I play in tournaments.

I can state with confidence that 2/3 of the decks I used to play did not all run green.

Also, when they did run green, it was for entirely different green cards than other decks splashing green, a point you keep trying to skip.
I honestly don't care about your home-brew of the week.

I assumed we were talking about decks with actual tangible results.

So I reiterate - and specifically do not skip the point - What cards (In GOOD decks) are being replaced by goyf? What legitimate contenders are there that are being pushed out of the format by Goyf? I can't make your argument for you. If you want me to address a point, be specific and give me something to debate.

tivadar

08-10-2009, 12:15 PM

Ok, forget the question of a card being overpowered/not overpowered. To me, that entire discussion has changed over the last 3-6 sets and may continue to evolve. Thank you WOTC for power creep... more like power smash! I mean, when the standard for efficiency is now casting cost + 1 or 2 = power versus the old casting cost - 0 or 1 = power, there's a very big differnece.

To me, the question is more "does this card distort a majority of the decks in the format". I won't try to answer this in full, but i will say that previously with things like werebear/goose/othergraveyardthings, no one would even consider running crypt or, now relic, maindeck. Thanks to goyf, these cards are now fairly commonplace maindeck. To me, that warrants a closer look at the very least. I'm not concerned with sideboard cards so much, as those are dedicated to particular matchups. But when people are mainboarding cards to hate out goyf, and essentially only goyf (ok, so maybe tombstalker and ichorid, but let's face it, those are a very remote second), goyf deserves a closer look.

Then again, I said much the same of Goblin Lackey back in the day. I don't expect Wizards to do anything about this, and it certainly is no Hulk Flash, but yeah, a single card has warped the format at least a bit.

Nessaja

08-10-2009, 12:16 PM

What "greater purpose" did Werebear or Quirion Dryad serve? Neither one of them did anything other than attack.
If the two were equal then they would've been interchangable in the decks they were played in. Quirion Dryad fits the burn strategy good because they need additional power immediatly and Werebear fitted the Thresh strategy better because the fast clock wasn't as significant as long as they got the payoff when they came in a control position. Also, you can't just not include Eva Green on a sidenote, it's a deck that performs well; if you think that it sucks, that's fine but it's a prime example of what Tarmogoyf did.

Goyf gets printed, and hey! Here's a 2 mana 5/6, with LESS drawback.
That's exactly the whole point isn't it. Tarmogoyf reigns supreme over all previous beaters and thus the old ones are obsoleted. All decks now take Tarmogoyf because it's the best option out there even over creatures that might fit the deck better synergy wise. Tarmogoyf is just that good.

There is nothing in the process of designing a deck where you ever really question if Tarmogoyf should be in it. And I think (and I know several other people feel the same way) that that is bad for the creativity in the format. What other card can you name in legacy that is quite simply the best to the point where other colors splash for it (and only for it).

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 12:20 PM

There is nothing in the process of designing a deck where you ever really question if Tarmogoyf should be in it. And I think (and I know several other people feel the same way) that that is bad for the creativity in the format. What other card can you name in legacy that is quite simply the best to the point where other colors splash for it (and only for it).

Swords to Plowshares. Pyroclasm. Dark Confidant. Krosan Grip. Brainstorm.

Q. Why did Thresh stop running Quirion Dryad?
A. Because Werebear is better.

Q. Why did Thresh stop running Werebear?
A. Because Goyf is better.

Q. Why did Thresh stop running Goose?
A. Because Sower, or Confidant, or Pridemage is better.

It's LEGACY, people. This shit happens.

And as a Merfolk player (right now), Relic is in the Maindeck for 1) Ichorid, and 2) Aggro Loam (our two worst matchups). That it nerfs Goyf is a bonus.

Tacosnape

08-10-2009, 12:24 PM

Swords to Plowshares. Pyroclasm. Dark Confidant. Krosan Grip. Brainstorm.

Neat how that covers all five colors.

This helps illustrate my point. No matter what you ban, something else is going to become the next "The card." And decks will splash for it.

Swords to Plowshares was "The card" for awhile. Now it's Tarmogoyf.

EDIT: And that's a solid illustration of the progression of threats.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 12:28 PM

And I think you and roughly 50% of The Source is a fucking douchebag. Doesn't make you remotely correct about Tarmogoyf.

Touchy. But you're the one that tried to use the bandwagon fallacy. I guess you're done with that, then.

In a vacuum, where it's Goyf versus Not Goyf, then usually yes, Goyf will win. Except there's a billion other factors to be considered. Tombstalker can sometimes outdo Goyf by shrinking it and being an evasive, 4-turn clock. Goblin Lackey and Tarmogoyf will often come to a stalemate, because neither one wants to swing. Grim Lavamancer can keep a Goyf in check, often to the 2/3-3/4 range. Wren's Run Vanquisher will trade with it and can sometimes take it down in the first turn or two. Exalted Angel can outrace it. Sower of Temptation can steal it. Shriekmaw can destroy it. Loaming Shaman can shrink it. And it's vulnerable to every form of spot removal run in Legacy, as well as arguably the most common piece of graveyard hate, Relic of Progenitus.

In no way does Tarmogoyf wreck this format.

Well, no, it's not vulnerable to the color red, first of all.

And your math is wrong by dint of tournament results. It would be acceptable to use this argument two years ago, perhaps, but there has been more than ample evidence that the non-Goyf strategies lose the logistics race since then.

I honestly don't care about your home-brew of the week.

Don't be a petty little shithead, Adam. You know I was talking about the decks I play against.

So I reiterate - and specifically do not skip the point - What cards (In GOOD decks) are being replaced by goyf? What legitimate contenders are there that are being pushed out of the format by Goyf? I can't make your argument for you. If you want me to address a point, be specific and give me something to debate.

I think I've given you several. You seem to ignore the ones you don't like.

How about;

Creatures.

Creatures are replaced by Goyf.

Swords to Plowshares. Pyroclasm. Dark Confidant. Krosan Grip. Brainstorm.

The only card there that good decks splash for is StP. And that's usually when they need a third color for EE and want Meddling Mage in the board anyway.

Q. Why didn't Thresh run Quirion Dryad?
A. Because Werebear is better.

Q. Why did Thresh stop running Werebear?
A. Because Goyf is better.

Q. Why did Thresh stop running Goose?
A. Because Sower, or Confidant, or Pridemage is better.

Considering that Confidant and Goose were both legal together for a while, and Goose saw more play, we can say with confidence that Confidant wasn't better. Given that Confidant is better than those other two, I'm going to make a similar assumption.

The reason Goose stopped seeing play is because 3/3s don't really cut it anymore. The only deck that gets away with running beaters as small (!!!) as a 3/3 are aggro-Goyf decks.

And as a Merfolk player (right now), Relic is in the Maindeck for 1) Ichorid, and 2) Aggro Loam (our two worst matchups). That it nerfs Goyf is a bonus.

I'm going to bet dollars to pesos you wouldn't play it if Goyf was banned tomorrow.

Nessaja

08-10-2009, 12:30 PM

Swords to Plowshares.
Vendetta, Snuff Out, Smother, PtE even Lightning Bolt are viable choices when it comes to creature removal. A black deck doesn't splash for white to have creature removal and a red deck doesn't neccesarily either (they can, just don't need to). A blue deck can splash for white but also splashes for red (TT) or black (UGb Thresh). Even though all colors have efficient creatures though, they still splash for Tarmogoyf. Black of all colors, which is pretty much the second most efficient color when it comes to creatures splashes green for creatures, you can't say the same for removal.

Pyroclasm
They can just play Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives, Deed, Firespout, Engineered Plague, Damnation. Mass removal isn't hard to find and Pyroclasm does not obsolete all other mass removal spells.

Dark Confidant
Do we play the same format?

Krosan Grip
This I agree with, as even some white decks are inclined to splash Green. But this is usually a package and not a standalone, using Krosan Grip in addition to Tarmogoyf, this has more to do with Tarmogoyf being so good then Krosan Grip being so good. Decks with Black or White can also use Vindicate or Oblivion Ring, Krosan Grip does not obsolete other permanent removal.

Brainstorm.
Other then that one random deck you just linked us to, what deck splashes blue for brainstorm?

Q. Why did Thresh stop running Quirion Dryad?
A. Because Werebear is better.
I'd just like to react to this, why didn't goyf sligh stop running Quirion Dryad while Thresh did? One wasn't strictly better then the other, Werebear was just better for threshes strategy.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 12:30 PM

Neat how that covers all five colors.

This helps illustrate my point. No matter what you ban, something else is going to become the next "The card." And decks will splash for it.

Swords to Plowshares was "The card" for awhile. Now it's Tarmogoyf.

EDIT: And that's a solid illustration of the progression of threats.

So, do you spit or swallow?

On a sidenote, cards being played =/= cards being dominant.

Hence why we do, in fact, ban cards.

I would actually like you to try to explain what you think does make a card banworthy.

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 12:35 PM

Don't be a petty little shithead, Adam. You know I was talking about the decks I play against.Don't resort to ad-hominem, Jack. Say what you mean. And I'm still waiting for examples.

I think I've given you several. You seem to ignore the ones you don't like.

How about;

Creatures.

Creatures are replaced by Goyf.Generic. It's easy to dodge arguments when you speak in generalities. I've given you more specifics to found your argument on than you have.

The only card there that good decks splash for is StP. And that's usually when they need a third color for EE and want Meddling Mage in the board anyway.What format are you playing? No one has played Meddling Mage in this format in a long fucking time.

Considering that Confidant and Goose were both legal together for a while, and Goose saw more play, we can say with confidence that Confidant wasn't better. Given that Confidant is better than those other two, I'm going to make a similar assumption.We aren't really concerned with that point, Jack, as neither are Goyf. Figure it the opposite way, then.

Why doesn't thresh run Bob?
Because Goose is better.

It still illustrates my point.

The reason Goose stopped seeing play is because 3/3s don't really cut it anymore. The only deck that gets away with running beaters as small (!!!) as a 3/3 are aggro-Goyf decks.I'm not convinced you really know what is getting played in this format anymore. If anything, Goose still sees play because of Shroud. And yet, utility is prevailing over undercosted shroud in most of the evolutions of thresh (aka, the Countertop decks in DTB).

I'm going to bet dollars to pesos you wouldn't play it if Goyf was banned tomorrow.
Conjecture. Irrelevant.

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 12:42 PM

Vendetta, Snuff Out, Smother, PtE even Lightning Bolt are viable choices when it comes to creature removal. A black deck doesn't splash for white to have creature removal and a red deck doesn't neccesarily either (they can, just don't need to). A blue deck can splash for white but also splashes for red (TT) or black (UGb Thresh). Even though all colors have efficient creatures though, they still splash for Tarmogoyf. Black of all colors, which is pretty much the second most efficient color when it comes to creatures splashes green for creatures, you can't say the same for removal.
None of those are as good as Swords. No one splashes for Vendetta. And if they can, they just play Swords instead. If you honestly don't think black decks splash for creature removal, I'd like you to check out Deadguy, or Red Death, or any rock deck ever.

They can just play Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives, Deed, Firespout, Engineered Plague, Damnation. Mass removal isn't hard to find and Pyroclasm does not obsolete all other mass removal spells. What argument are you trying to make? You asked, name cards people splash for when they don't play other cards of that color. Pyroclasm is one of them. That there are better mass removal spells than Pyroclasm is irrelevant to that point.

Do we play the same format? Apparently not. And yet, in Legacy, people have been seen to splash black for Bob.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 12:44 PM

Don't resort to ad-hominem, Jack. Say what you mean. And I'm still waiting for examples.

I guess I would feel more charitable if you responded to things I said, rather than constructing irrelevant strawmen and trying to attack my "deck of the week".

Generic. It's easy to dodge arguments when you speak in generalities. I've given you more specifics to found your argument on than you have.

Seriously? We've had this conversation before. I don't want to go back and retype or refind lists we've already gone over. Brief summary;

Werebear
Flametongue Kavu
Nimble Mongoose
Troll Ascetic
Silver Knight
Phyrexian Negator
Flesh Reaver
Watchwolf
Wild Mongrel
Arrogant Wurm

Or because this is already boring me;

- Creatures played by White Weenie
- Creatures played by Sui decks
- Creatures played by Blue Aggro-Control
- Creatures played by Blue Control.
- Creatures played by Rock decks
- Creatures played by Zoo decks
- Creatures played by Stompy decks
- Creatures played by Survival decks
- Creatures played by fucking Tribal decks in some cases.

Let me break down the problem really simply for you;

In a natural metagame progression, a given card changes to another given card in a given deck.

Problems with Tarmogoyf;

1) Every deck is changing to the same card.

2) No deck is dropping that card as the metagame changes and new cards are released.

These are both huge fucking signs that the card in question is significantly overpowered.

Nessaja

08-10-2009, 12:52 PM

None of those are as good as Swords. No one splashes for Vendetta. And if they can, they just play Swords instead. If you honestly don't think black decks splash for creature removal, I'd like you to check out Deadguy, or Red Death, or any rock deck ever
They can, but they don't need to, you misunderstood my question. Eva Green does not need to splash white for STP, it already has sufficient removal in black. That white is added to GB controlling builds has a lot more to do with Vindicate then STP. Hence why people started to question if the white splash was still needed when Maelstrom Pulse was printed. Similary, Goyf Sligh does not need to add white for creature removal because they already have enough oncolor removal (Chain, Bolt).

Anyway back to STP, yes Swords is the best (and here's where you are misunderstanding my question) but when decks already have oncolor removal they aren't going to be splashing white for STP. Examples of this oncolor removal I named.

You can not say the same about Tarmogoyf, even though white and black decks that have a white or black basis still splash green for Tarmogoyf. The only color that has bad "beater" creatures is blue. That leaves blue with 4 colors to splash creatures for, yet when it comes to beaters the only color splashed is green. Not red, not black, not white. Just green, just tarmogoyf.

What argument are you trying to make? You asked, name cards people splash for when they don't play other cards of that color. Pyroclasm is one of them. That there are better mass removal spells than Pyroclasm is irrelevant to that point.
No, I didn't.

What other card can you name in legacy that is quite simply the best to the point where other colors splash for it (and only for it).
When you're in a color that doesn't play mass removal (say, green blue) you have several choices of mass removal. One of them is Pyroclasm, but colors also splash for other mass removal. And thus the "and only for it" clause does not apply. People might add a volcanic island to their deck to have Pyroclasm in the sideboard but I never said the problem was splashing, the problem is only splashing for a single card because all other options aren't viable.

Apparently not. And yet, in Legacy, people have been seen to splash black for Bob.
You quite obviously misunderstood my question. Bob is more a luxury then a necessity, he's cute to have but there's no such thing as either playing bob or having a strategy that makes you as effective as Bob. Contrary to Tarmogoyf.

Also, where did brainstorm go?

Lets make this question more simple; if people decide not to splash green for Tarmogoyf are there realistic options available that on some level can compete with Tarmogoyf given the right circumstances? In a similar fashion that Smother is a viable choice when you prefer what black has to offer over what white has to offer.

Can you play a monored deck focused on creature combat and is still viable? Or Rb, or Rw?
Can you play a monoblack deck focused on creature combat and is still viable? Or Bw or Br?
Can you play a monowhite deck focused on creature combat and is still viable? Or Wb or Wr?
Can you play a tricolor RBW deck focused on creature combat that is still viable?

If any of the above is yes, would the deck be strictly better when you do splash green for Tarmogoyf?

Other then tribal decks, which are a very specific strategy that usually take up about 50% of the design space, whereas tarmogoyf takes up 4 slots, aka 1/25th. I can only name Dragon Stompy, I think that's a good indication that Tarmogoyf is limiting the design of new decks in Legacy.

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 12:54 PM

Werebear - Sure. I'm not convinced he'd have a sudden resurgence with the banning of Goyf.
Flametongue Kavu - I actually agree on this. And I miss it, in all honesty.
Nimble Mongoose - Still played.
Troll Ascetic - Never was played in good decks.
Silver Knight - White weenie has always sucked. I don't know why you think this would see play again suddenly.
Phyrexian Negator - Agreed. Because it can't attack into it or block it.
Flesh Reaver - Was never good. Not even played in Red Death. Why wouldn't you play Tombstalker over it?
Watchwolf - would be pushed out by Qasali Pridemage. Goyf has nothing to do with it.
Wild Mongrel - Madness sucked before goyf.
Arrogant Wurm - Madness sucked before goyf.

- Creatures played by White Weenie
- Creatures played by Sui decks
- Creatures played by Blue Aggro-Control
- Creatures played by Blue Control.
- Creatures played by Rock decks
- Creatures played by Zoo decks
- Creatures played by Stompy decks
- Creatures played by Survival decks
- Creatures played by fucking Tribal decks in some cases.I was under the impression that the problem cases for you were where Goyf is splashed for. If that's not the case, then we'd be having this discussion if it cost :G::G:, as well, since the Rock, and Zoo, and Stompy, and Survival would all still play it.

In a natural metagame progression, a given card changes to another given card in a given deck.

Problems with Tarmogoyf;

1) Every deck is changing to the same card.

2) No deck is dropping that card as the metagame changes and new cards are released.You haven't really given the format much of a chance to change. It's an eternal format. Shit happens slower here, barring significant bans. I'd consider the banning of Goyf "significant." Much like Brainstorm, or Top, or Counterbalance, or LED, or....

These are both huge fucking signs that the card in question is significantly overpowered.I don't necessarily disagree. However, I don't believe that that is, in and of itself, a reason to ban the card. Again, I'll say that LED, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, etc. are all overpowered.

My point is this - yes, some creatures have been obsoleted by Goyf. In particular, the three that come to mind are Werebear, FTK and Negator. Two of them are because they can't compete with Goyf, and Werebear was replaced with it. I'm not convinced that this is a Bad Thing.

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 01:00 PM

I'm going to lunch. I'll play with you more in a little while.

Tacosnape

08-10-2009, 01:05 PM

So, do you spit or swallow?

Depends on the pay rate.

I would actually like you to try to explain what you think does make a card banworthy.

When it distorts the format to a point where it's clear that it's incorrect to do one of the following:

A: Run the card in question.
B: Run decks specifically designed to crush the card in question and all or most of the decks it's found in.

Common decks that fall into category A: Countertop, Tempo Thresh, Zoo, Survival, Aggro Loam, BGW Deadguy (Or wtfever we call that deck with Goyf/Stalker/Hymn/Vindicate/Etc)

Common decks that fall into category B: None.

Common decks that don't fall into any of these categories: Goblins, Storm Combo, Ichorid, Landstill, Merfolk, any Chalice Aggro deck except the green one which sometimes falls into category A, etc. All of these are viable decks. Goblins runs removal to deal with Tarmogoyf. Merfolk typically runs something in sideboard to handle it and other things. The rest of the decks on the list just ignore Tarmogoyf.

Now, of Category A, Countertop, Tempo Thresh, Zoo, and BGW Deadguy are getting the best results at large tournaments, generally better than any of the other decks. They're doing this not solely because of Tarmogoyf, but because they have strong sound strategies in which Tarmogoyf fits well. Here's my point.

1. Threshold got results before Tarmogoyf, and a lot of its improved strength can also be attributed to cards like Counterbalance. Likewise, Tempo Thresh derives a lot of its strength from a very annoying and versatile disruption package.

2. Zoo actually -didn't- rise all that much to prominence with Goyf, but it got better. It wasn't until it also got cards like Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage that it gained enough force to be dominant.

3. BGW probably gained the most benefit from Tarmogoyf, which gave it actual legitimate threats. It also got Krosan Grip and Deed in sideboard. It also got Tombstalker. It picked up a lot to bring it to where it is.

socialite

08-10-2009, 01:13 PM

Is it not the nature of the game for new cards to make old ones obsolete?

I don't see a problem here, this happens all the time.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 03:41 PM

Nightmare

08-10-2009, 03:49 PM

That's a retarded argument. Flash made all the cards that didn't go in Flash decks obsolete; why did you have a problem with that? Or more topical, Skullclamp just pushed the decks out of Standard that couldn't use Skullclamp. But there were still multiple decks that placed well using Skullclamp. Why wasn't that a great format?
I'm sorry, are there no decks doing well in this format without Goyf?

Of course, that isn't a real solid argument against banning the card.

I can say only this much. I've said - across a few threads in multiple forums - my peace on the card. I think its strength is obvious. I think it's easily splashed in many decks. However, I don't think that's in and of itself an issue. I think people like you, Jack, and the others who are concerned about this issue are looking at it from a different angle than I am. You care about diversity in the format and making decks good AND unique. For the most part, I'm not really interested in the idea of unique or diverse. I just play the deck which is, in my opinion, the best at the time. Sometimes, maybe even the majority of the time, that deck contains Tarmogoyf. However, 100% of the time it contains Brainstorm, Force of Will, or both. Just my perspective.

Nessaja

08-10-2009, 03:54 PM

You care about diversity in the format and making decks good AND unique.
Pretty much sums up my feelings as well. And in all honesty, compared to other formats I can't complain about the diversity in the format, as even though Tarmogoyf is here there are still a gazilion of archetypes. I just think it could be gazilion+2 without Goyf and that's probably not worth it for Wizards.

I don't think Goyf is OP compared to the rest of the format. I do think that if Goyf stays creatures in R, W and B need more love in the creature department for legacy.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

08-10-2009, 04:02 PM

At the end of the day, its still just an evasionless creature with a max power of six. It can still be countered, Terrored, StP'd, or have its power nerfed by relic/crypt. It's not some crazy combo enabler like Flash or Gush, and can never kill in one turn. Yes, its very very powerful for a creature, but easy enough to deal with that it has no reason to go.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 04:05 PM

Believe it or not, I'm not opposed to banning Force of Will or Brainstorm either. I think Tarmogoyf is a more obvious and pressing concern, but I do think those two are overly dominant. I wouldn't want to ban both, but I wouldn't miss one. Probably Brainstorm just to show some kindness to people that are already losing a lot of value in Tarmogoyfs. Also because Brainstorm is ridiculous.

I wouldn't mind banning Tendrils either.

I'm not a conservative about bannings. My problem right now is that the format fucking bores me to tears. I've never been this dissatisfied with the format. It's boring. It's solved. The best deck runs Goyf and Counterbalance-Top and Brainstorm, Force of Will, and then probably some combination of Thoughtseize, Confidant, Swords to Plowshares, Trinket Mages, EEs, and maybe a Shackles or Loresacle or something. What's left to know?

Wrath_Of_Houlding

08-10-2009, 04:14 PM

What's left to know?

Why everyone's not playing this magical auto-win deck?

Bryant Cook

08-10-2009, 04:15 PM

Believe it or not, I'm not opposed to banning Force of Will or Brainstorm either.

I wouldn't mind banning Tendrils either.

This is why we can't have nice things. Shut up.

My problem right now is that the format fucking bores me to tears.

Coming from the guy who builds board control decks. Mono White Control.

C.P.

08-10-2009, 04:27 PM

Finn

08-10-2009, 04:27 PM

Jack, I don't know if you played competitive magic before Force of Will. But I did, and I never want to return to it. I have always hated blue for all the reasons you do, so I know where you are coming from. But Force of Will is a necessary evil. Honestly it is not always a strong card anyway - the way Brainstorm is.

Tarmo pisses me off from a design standpoint. I am indignant about either HAVING to design in the confines of green or coming up with a wild solution that does not suck at all other times. (Are there any serious designers who do like Tarmo?) My biggest beef, as lavafrogg is fond of saying is that the best solution for Tarmogoyf of every card ever printed - is Tarmogoyf.

But playing with or against it suits me just fine. And THAT is the biggest barrier to its ban. It does not wreck games the way Skullclamp, Lin Sivvi, etc did.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 04:29 PM

"Change slowly" != "Have a clear best deck"

@Bryant:

No.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-10-2009, 04:30 PM

nitewolf9

08-10-2009, 04:34 PM

Hence why I would lean towards Brainstorm, which is basically an instant speed one mana TfK anyway.

TfK is an instant. OH SNAP!

But seriously, I think the format is pretty diverse right now. There are a lot of viable decks, and it seems to me counter top isn't really showing up in large numbers any more.

AnwarA101

08-10-2009, 07:31 PM

I'm not a conservative about bannings. My problem right now is that the format fucking bores me to tears. I've never been this dissatisfied with the format. It's boring. It's solved. The best deck runs Goyf and Counterbalance-Top and Brainstorm, Force of Will, and then probably some combination of Thoughtseize, Confidant, Swords to Plowshares, Trinket Mages, EEs, and maybe a Shackles or Loresacle or something. What's left to know?

A format is allowed to have a best deck. What a format shouldn't have is one deck that is so much better than the rest of the format that there is no reason to play the other decks. I don't think we are in this situation at all. CounterTop is a fine deck and it might be the best deck, but is it really head and shoulders above Merfolk, Zoo, Elves, and others? No. If it were no one would be playing these decks, but they are.

Ectoplasm

08-10-2009, 08:02 PM

I remember half a year ago when nobody even heard of merfolk and right now it's the hottest deck around, guess the format got solved.

MTG-Fan

08-10-2009, 08:11 PM

I still think Tarmogoyf can never be truly "broken" if it's a vanilla beater.

And you can't make the comparison to Ancestral Recall and other old truly broken spells. Why? Ancestral Recall is a generic draw spell, yes, but drawing cards is something relevant to every strategy.

Playing creatures *isn't*. Sure, a lot of decks win by beating with creatures, but not all of them can make use of a cheap creature, especially with stuff like Moat and all forms of spot removal in the format. Some decks don't care about playing a few creatures and turning on their opponents' removal, etc. The problem with stuff like Ancestral Recall is that EVERY deck would want to pay 1 mana for 3 cards. Enchatnress, ANT, Goblins, Thresh, Merfolk... EVERYTHING. The only thing you need to fear when playing Recall is the spell being countered. A creature, however, can be dealt with in many more ways. Blockers, control magic, removal, sweepers, counters, etc.

Even if they were to print a 1 mana 10/10 with no abilities and no drawback, it still wouldn't be broken. No joke. It'd be really freaking efficient, but simply being a big creature that can be StP'd and Exploded, and Wrath'd would make it merely a great creature, which is what Goyf is and always will be.

Goyf does obsolete some other card choices like Werebear & co. in some decks, but it is in no way "broken" nor will it ever be.

Malchar

08-10-2009, 08:28 PM

Goyf can always be neutered because of its graveyard dependency. If anything, Wizards just hasn't ratcheted up the power of the graveyard hosers yet.

Bryant Cook

08-10-2009, 08:30 PM

Goyf can always be neutered because of its graveyard dependency. If anything, Wizards just hasn't ratcheted up the power of the graveyard hosers yet.

What do you expect? I mean, a better Jotun Grunt? It's not going to happen.

Dan Turner

08-10-2009, 08:43 PM

Goyf Killer 0

Enchantment

(Goyf Killer is All Colors at all times)
Flash, Split Second, Shroud
When a creature with type Lurgoyf comes onto the battlefield, Exile all cards in all gravyards this creature recieves 1 damage.

"Ha, HA, HA! Hans, Watch how we screw this Tarmogoyf real fast." - Saffi Eriksdotter

rockout

08-10-2009, 08:52 PM

This thread makes me want to /wrist

Tacosnape

08-10-2009, 09:54 PM

@Tacosnape:

If you're talking about Doran Rock, that deck sucks. Yeah, it gets to play Goyf. So does every other deck.

Actually, I'm talking about the one that Brian Kowal made 5th with at GP Chicago. Given that this deck is actually the best argument you have for decks that splash green just for Tarmogoyf (It runs Goyf and Deed in board and that's it), you ought to be more familiar with it.

Believe it or not, I'm not opposed to banning Force of Will.

Banning Force of Will is ridiculous. Legacy will then degenerate into Combo, Combo, and Suicide Black. Force of Will is the glue that holds this format together.

I still think Tarmogoyf can never be truly "broken" if it's a vanilla beater.

Well, it -could-, it's just highly unlikely. If a version of Street Wraith got printed that was all permanent types or something similar? Then yeah. Crazy shit happens. Nobody would have guessed a couple years back there would ever be 12 +1/+1 lords available tribal decks.

But for the most part, yeah, I agree.

MTG-Fan

08-10-2009, 10:21 PM

Banning Force of Will is ridiculous. Legacy will then degenerate into Combo, Combo, and Suicide Black. Force of Will is the glue that holds this format together.

Yeah, anybody who supports the banning of Force in either Vintage or Legacy is mentally deranged.

Tacosnape

08-10-2009, 10:51 PM

Yeah, anybody who supports the banning of Force in either Vintage or Legacy is mentally deranged.

Nod. I'd say something ridiciulous like Suicide Black will start splashing Gemstone Caverns and Quicken to get a turn 0 Unmask, but if Force is banned running Blue is wrong anyway.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-11-2009, 12:55 AM

Banning Force wouldn't be that bad if and only if Tendrils (and maybe Ad Nauseum) were banned.

Every other combo folds to permanent, usually creature hate. What else is terrifying that can be accelerated out turn 1-3? Grindstone? Cephalid Breakfast? Leyline-Helm? Are you going to try and go for Brain Freeze? Spring Tide or Permanent Waves or whatever the fuck it's called now?

Nonetheless, as I said, the problem with blue dominance is the combo. I would ban Brainstorm as the more degenerate card, if anything. But this is only addressing the hypothetical argument that these cards are as potent and have as large an impact as Goyf, so really rather a red herring.

A format is allowed to have a best deck. What a format shouldn't have is one deck that is so much better than the rest of the format that there is no reason to play the other decks. I don't think we are in this situation at all. CounterTop is a fine deck and it might be the best deck, but is it really head and shoulders above Merfolk, Zoo, Elves, and others? No. If it were no one would be playing these decks, but they are.

Just like good players only played Hulk-Flash at GP Columbus? Or did some people voluntarily play decks that were straight-up statistically worse?

MTG-Fan

08-11-2009, 01:15 AM

Banning Force wouldn't be that bad if and only if Tendrils (and maybe Ad Nauseum) were banned.

Every other combo folds to permanent, usually creature hate. What else is terrifying that can be accelerated out turn 1-3? Grindstone? Cephalid Breakfast? Leyline-Helm? Are you going to try and go for Brain Freeze? Spring Tide or Permanent Waves or whatever the fuck it's called now?

Glimpse of Nature is capable of some nasty shit. I could build a combo deck with a bunch of zero CC creatures, and Glimpse and Grapeshot, that completely folds to Force, but otherwise combos consistently on turns 1-2.

But anyway, ANT would be ridiculous if Force wasn't in the format.

Just like good players only played Hulk-Flash at GP Columbus? Or did some people voluntarily play decks that were straight-up statistically worse?

Holy shit. You aren't comparing Hulk-Flash to CounterTop, are you? Flash was completely unfair. It had the most broken win condition EVER backed up by ass-tons of countermagic and discard. As far as win conditions go, Goyf =/= Flash, not by a long shot, no sir.

You can dismantle a CounterTop deck if you build something with enough blue hate and/or a high mana curve, and run bigger dudes. It's not *that* good, it's merely powerful if you're playing in a metagame that is susceptible to Counterbalance.

I can't think of a single deck that can beat unrestricted Flash with any kind of regularity.

Skeggi

08-11-2009, 02:53 AM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-11-2009, 02:59 AM

Glimpse of Nature is capable of some nasty shit. I could build a combo deck with a bunch of zero CC creatures, and Glimpse and Grapeshot, that completely folds to Force, but otherwise combos consistently on turns 1-2.

And no you wouldn't again.

Because Glimpse decks are mathematically unviable.

Holy shit. You aren't comparing Hulk-Flash to CounterTop, are you?

You're not even trying, are you?

nitewolf9

08-11-2009, 10:28 AM

Holy shit. You aren't comparing Hulk-Flash to CounterTop, are you? Flash was completely unfair. It had the most broken win condition EVER backed up by ass-tons of countermagic and discard. As far as win conditions go, Goyf =/= Flash, not by a long shot, no sir.

You can dismantle a CounterTop deck if you build something with enough blue hate and/or a high mana curve, and run bigger dudes. It's not *that* good, it's merely powerful if you're playing in a metagame that is susceptible to Counterbalance.

I can't think of a single deck that can beat unrestricted Flash with any kind of regularity.

Wow, way to completely miss the point.

Skeggi

08-11-2009, 10:32 AM

Because Glimpse decks are mathematically unviable.
Actually I've met a guy who had a Glimpse deck that also used Chalice@0 + Multani's Presence. It was okay-ish, but has the same weakness as Belcher: no protection and easily hated.

DireLemming

08-11-2009, 10:53 AM

I know it's bad form to try to introduce factual data in to an internet debate, but here it goes anyway:

http://simonbelak.nfshost.com/ban-whining.png

The obvious problem with this chart is, it tells us shit. So if anyone has any ideas how to look at the data feel free to voice them and I will play with the numbers some more.

(this is based on deckcheck.net data so you have main, sb, date, location, rough classification (aggro, combo, control), archetype, place and number of participants; to play with.)

Wrath_Of_Houlding

08-11-2009, 10:59 AM

JeroenC

08-11-2009, 11:04 AM

Wait what? Swords? Did anyone ever really want that banned?

DireLemming

08-11-2009, 11:13 AM

Wait what? Swords? Did anyone ever really want that banned?
I hope not. Swords were included just as a reference (+ as pointed a couple ages back, it is in some ways analogues to Goyf in terms of how splashable it is).

thesilentpyro

08-11-2009, 11:59 AM

It is fascinating that goyf and swords seem to have an inverse relationship.

Only in the beginning.

I see that FoW and Brainstorm mostly correspond, which I would attribute to the rise and fall of heavy-blue decks' dominance in the meta at relative times. I also find it interesting that, for most of that graph, Goyf is below FoW and Brainstorm, which is interesting as the general consensus in this thread seems to be that FoW and Brainstorm, while very much powerful cards, should not be removed from the format.

I'd like to see that data alongside data about which decks led the meta over the same time.

socialite

08-11-2009, 12:57 PM

Nessaja

08-11-2009, 01:23 PM

I understand your frustration from a design standpoint but the fact remains that old cards inherently get phased out by new cards. Thats how WoTC makes money?
Unlike other cards, Tarmogoyf did not have a 1:1 replacement ratio. He replaced and obsoleted several creatures. I sincerely hope we do not need to get over this. WoTC already stated that printing Tarmogoyf was a mistake, I'm 99% certain that it never was their intention to replace every creature that isn't specific to a strategy (and even some that are specific to a strategy) with Tarmogoyf. Had Tarmogoyf only replaced Werebear and Quirion Dryad and not making any other creatures obsolete you wouldn't have heard anyone. However, that did happen.

As far as an argument against the banning of Tarmogoyf, I think Nightmare hit it dead on with Brainstorm and Force of Will.
I just want to get the argumentation straight before you get the impression that the above is actually valid. The argumentation for banning Tarmogoyf is based on it making the creature base much smaller, a lot of the new creatures printed never got a chance and the old creatures already available just got extinct because of Tarmogoyf. An argument against that needs to include something that says that the above is either not the case or that there are other cards in Magic that did the same.

While FoW obsoletes a lot of Counterspells, he can only be used in blue and counterspell is a niche. Just like Burn is a niche. There is absolutely no problem that there is a best burn spell or best counterspell. These things are specific to color. That same argument applies to brainstorm.

There are only two examples of similar behavior shown in Legacy where cards are splashed for off color because they're the best option, but even though they have that thing in common they're still not the same:
- Swords to Plowshares, but unlike Goyf, the card has not obsoleted all other creature removal, Smother, Lightning Bolt, Snuff Out, Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Vendetta and even counterspells still see play as creature removal. Swords is arguably the best of the bunch, but when a deck does not have access to white you can still play the black or red removal and be OK in Legacy. You can not play a Black based deck and take the best Black creature as a replacement for Tarmogoyf. Well, off course you can, but it has proven to be less effective then the alternative of splashing for Goyf.
- Krosan Grip is without a doubt the best Enchantment and Artifact removal. The only comparable cards are permanent removal cards like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse. But Krosan Grip hasn't had the same impact as Tarmogoyf because Krosan Grip pretty much only obsoleted Disenchant, not a whole list of creatures like Tarmogoyf did. Also, Krosan Grip is a neccesary evil against Counterbalance, much like Force of Will is a neccesary evil against Combo.

Nothing about Brainstorm or FoW even resembles the reason why Tarmogoyf should be banned (from a format health and deck design perspective) and as such you can't use it as a counterargument. So what that they're played a lot, that wasn't the argument against Tarmogoyf to begin with. Argument A needs argument A' as counter argument, not argument B'.

MTG-Fan

08-11-2009, 01:39 PM

Wow, way to completely miss the point.

The point IBA was trying to make is that despite Hulk-Flash clearly being the best deck in the format at the time, people were still playing other stuff.

But you simply cannot compare this to the current situation (where many play CounterTop and yet others continue to play various other decks) if only because CounterTop is not as good of a deck, relatively, as Flash was. CounterTop is *not* clearly the best deck in the format. It has its good matchups, and its bad. Flash had virtually no "bad" matchups.

socialite

08-11-2009, 01:53 PM

Nothing about Brainstorm or FoW even resembles the reason why Tarmogoyf should be banned (from a format health and deck design perspective) and as such you can't use it as a counterargument. So what that they're played a lot, that wasn't the argument against Tarmogoyf to begin with. Argument A needs argument A' as counter argument, not argument B'.

Huh.

Brainstorm and Force of Will do exactly that to a number of quality blue cards.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

08-11-2009, 01:57 PM

A card being strictly better or "obsoleting" another card is no reason to ban it...unless we want a format filled with Ironclaw Orcs.

Nessaja

08-11-2009, 02:07 PM

Huh.

Brainstorm and Force of Will do exactly that to a number of quality blue cards.
Did you bother reading my post?

Cantripping is a niche, it doesn't restrict the number of green, red, black or white instants. There is absolutely no problem with there being a best cantrip spell, likewise there's absolutely no problem with a best counterspell. Even though there's FoW and Brainstorm, other instants like Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt and Sword to Plowshares are still played. And it's not by chance I name those cards because they are as well the best at what they do. The difference is that these things stay on color and aren't universal things across the color pie. There are no counters in red, there is no discard in blue. STP, as I named in my example, is not obsoleting cards in other colors, Snuff Out and Smother are still played regardless of STP ( a superior choice in a lot of cases but not strictly better in all scenarios) as is Lightning Bolt while they all serve the same purpose. If Goyf was only the best green creature, you wouldn't have heard anyone complain.

The problem with Goyf is that he obsoleting cards outside his color, in combination with the fact that creatures are not a color specific thing. There are 4 creature colors and only one is widely played across all decks, the choice of choosing another splash then green for creatures (even though other colors offer a lot more things) is nullified by Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is obsoleting creature cards across all colors which is far greater then obsoleting cards within the same niche and the same color.

That's the original argumentation for banning Goyf. Now with the power creep it's getting less and less of a problem. The only problem that there still is that every new powercreep made by Wizards is still green. Instead of giving red black and white powercreep on legacy level they're putting everything in green which quite frankly doesn't solve anything deck design wise.

If you don't mind though, before we get into the same argument as 3 pages back, I really don't feel like repeating everything that was said already.

socialite

08-11-2009, 02:16 PM

Did you bother reading my post?

Cantripping is a niche, it doesn't restrict the number of green, red, black or white instants. There is absolutely no problem with there being a best cantrip spell, likewise there's absolutely no problem with a best counterspell. Even though there's FoW and Brainstorm, other instants like Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt and Sword to Plowshares are still played. And it's not by chance I name those cards because they are as well the best at what they do. The difference is that these things stay on color and aren't universal things across the color pie. There are no counters in red, there is no discard in blue. STP, as I named in my example, is not obsoleting cards in other colors, Snuff Out and Smother are still played regardless of STP ( a superior choice in a lot of cases but not strictly better in all scenarios) as is Lightning Bolt while they all serve the same purpose. If Goyf was only the best green creature, you wouldn't have heard anyone complain.

The problem with Goyf is that he obsoleting cards outside his color, in combination with the fact that creatures are not a color specific thing. There are 4 creature colors and only one is widely played across all decks, the choice of choosing another splash then green for creatures (even though other colors offer a lot more things) is nullified by Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is obsoleting creature cards across all colors which is far greater then obsoleting cards within the same niche and the same color.

That's the original argumentation for banning Goyf. Now with the power creep it's getting less and less of a problem. The only problem that there still is that every new powercreep made by Wizards is still green. Instead of giving red black and white powercreep on legacy level they're putting everything in green which quite frankly doesn't solve anything deck design wise.

If you don't mind though, before we get into the same argument as 3 pages back, I really don't feel like repeating everything that was said already.

Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize = Sorcery.

Let me understand this.

Tarmogoyf is significantly worse because, as a creature, it crosses traditional color barriers?

Also: You do know people play other creatures in this format, yes? Therefore Tarmogoyf is a superior choice but not strictly better in all scenarios.

Edit: Mind you I mean all of this in the most respectful manner. I never thought that much of Tarmogoyf, I am only trying to understand what the huge issue is.

ThatGuyThere

08-11-2009, 02:30 PM

Tarmogoyf is significantly worse because, as a creature, it crosses traditional color barriers?

Exactly that, yes.

If only Green, or G / something, decks ran 'Goyf - if he only counted green cards of the various permanent types or something - then the fact that he (arguably) would still be a savagely cost-efficient creature would be less of a problem.

The problem is, red, blue, white, and black decks play 'Goyf. 'Goyf is every bit as much a blue card as a green one. (outside of combo) There's no more efficient way to deal lethal damage than creatures, regardless of colour - and there's no better creature at dealing damage than Tarmogoyf.

Need a creature that can go the distance for you? 'Goyf.
Need a mid-range blocker than can come down early? 'Goyf.
Need a late game finisher? 'Goyf.

(Essentially) Regardless of your deck's colour or concept, 'Goyf is the answer. Even Tribal decks have tinkered with him (and believe me, Tribal Lhurgoyf sucks).

Those all used to be different roles played by different cards, in different colours and different decks. Now, 'Goyf is simply the best there is at those jobs (and probably others).

Note I'm not saying 'Goyf should be banned. But the arguement that 'Goyf has 'condensed' the metagame, rendering many other creature options inefficient and extinct is (to me) completely persuasive.

That may be good, bad, or neutral - that can be debated. Ad infinitum. But to argue that 'Goyf didn't radically change the rules for which creatures are efficient enough for Legacy is simply ... wrong.

Tacosnape

08-11-2009, 02:30 PM

A card being strictly better or "obsoleting" another card is no reason to ban it...unless we want a format filled with Ironclaw Orcs.

This is exactly my point.

I mean, fuck, we should ban the shit out of Roc of Kher Ridges. Makes Hill Giant obsolete and forces people to maindeck Hurricane to compensate.

Bryant Cook

08-11-2009, 02:31 PM

I love Tarmogoyf. Especially when my opponents cast it turn 2. Play decks that don't lose to Vanilla dudes or man-up.

socialite

08-11-2009, 02:33 PM

This is exactly my point.

I mean, fuck, we should ban the shit out of Roc of Kher Ridges. Makes Hill Giant obsolete and forces people to maindeck Hurricane to compensate.

I love Tarmogoyf. Especially when my opponents cast it turn 2. Play decks that don't lose to Vanilla dudes or man-up.

If you guys had a love child it would be Spock.

Nessaja

08-11-2009, 02:34 PM

It's sad that both Taco and BC don't even understand the argument made against Tarmogoyf. And if they do, they aren't responding to it.

Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize = Sorcery.
Was looking for a card that was best at what it does. If you can name a black card that is obsoleted by brain storm or FoW because FoW and brainstorm are better at what it tries to achieve then by all means, be my guest.

Let me understand this.

Tarmogoyf is significantly worse because, as a creature, it crosses traditional color barriers?
I knew you were going to do this, I even put a disclaimer that I really do not want to repeat what already has been said. Why don't you just try reading the topic?

He's not significantly worse only because he crosses traditional color barriers. He's significantly worse because by his printing he was the best creature of choice no matter what deck you put him in, obsoleting creatures (before goyfs printing, and after) across all colors. The best creature in Eva Green is Tarmogoyf (black based), the best creature in Zoo is Tarmogoyf, the best creature in Goyf Sligh (red based) is Tarmogoyf, the best creature in Thresh is Tarmogoyf (blue based), the best creature in the Rock is Tarmogoyf, the best creature in Tempo Thresh is Tarmogoyf. He is by far the best choice across all colors and obsoletes many oncolor creatures in the process.

- You can not make a blue red deck and compete with decks that have Tarmogoyf in the creature department.
- You can not make a blue black deck and compete with decks that have Tarmogoyf in the creature department.
- You can not make a blue white deck and compete with decks that have Tarmogoyf in the creature department.
- You can not make a combination of blue white black red and have a deck that can compete with Tarmogoyf when it comes to creature combat.

If you want to compete in the creature department (considering it's usually the way you win..) the other colors aren't a viable option. You're better off staying mono blue and going for a combo win (hello nought/painter stone) or even a light splash. From a deckdesign perspective it is a serious issue that the weakest creature color only has only one option in terms of splashing when it wants to add creature strength. Even though there are 4 colors that are supposed to have strong creatures.

Edit, just to put some emphasis:

Tarmogoyf is the best green creature,
" " blue creature
" " black creature
" " red creature
" " white creature

And by being what he is, he obsoleted many legacy viable creatures in these colors. You can't say the same about another card in legacy, I'm quite certain, especially not brainstorm and FoW.

Also: You do know people play other creatures in this format, yes? Therefore it is a superior choice but not strictly better in all scenarios.
I didn't say he was strictly better in all scenarios, I said that STP wasn't strictly better in all scenarios.

Sure, tribal creatures and Dragon Stompy. All decks that need to devote their entire design space to get creatures as efficient as Tarmogoyf. Where as Tarmogoyf takes exactly 4 slots.

As I said though, things are slowly getting better thanks to power creep. Even though Wizards is doing it the wrong way. Before the printing of the Alara block things were much worse. I'm stating the original argument against Goyf. Which still applies, but it's slowly getting better thanks to Quasali Pridemage and Lorescale Couatl. WotC didn't get the memo though, they're still green. However, it at least makes some other creatures viable again.

Last thing, as a lot of people (even people I didn't expect from that their parent mated with vegetables) seem to misunderstand. The argument made is not that Tarmogoyf is too strong for the format. Because quite frankly, he isn't. The argument also is not that he's stronger then some other creatures.

socialite

08-11-2009, 02:36 PM

Was looking for a card that was best at what it does. If you can name a black card that is obsoleted by brain storm or FoW because FoW and brainstorm are better at what it tries to achieve then by all means, be my guest.

Night's Whisper

Still a sorcery but would have made the point better IMHO.

Bryant Cook

08-11-2009, 02:49 PM

It's sad that both Taco and BC don't even understand the argument made against Tarmogoyf. And if they do, they aren't responding to it.

I'm going to write Wizards a very angry letter on a message board because my all-time favorite magic card - Mons Goblin Raider. Is no longer playable because they printed Raging Goblin. It makes Mons goblin raider useless, it has no advantages over Raging Goblin. Its warping goblin decks everywhere. What's next? A Raging Goblin that puts other Goblins into play? They need to quit making other cards obsolete.

This is going to happen when they make new set after new set trying to push the envelope of playable cards for contructed formats. Deal with it people.

Nessaja

08-11-2009, 02:52 PM

Once again proving that you haven't even read the argument. If you don't care to read the argument then don't bother responding to me.

ThatGuyThere

08-11-2009, 02:55 PM

It's sad that both Taco and BC don't even understand the argument made against Tarmogoyf. And if they do, they aren't responding to it.

He's significantly worse because by his printing he was the best creature of choice no matter what deck you put him in, obsoleting creatures ... across all colors. ... He is by far the best choice across all colors and obsoletes many oncolor creatures in the process.

The arguement of the pro-banning people is pedantic and subjective. Neither of those means it's wrong - but it's very possible they understand the arguement, and disagree with it, and further evidence will not be persuasive because they find the underlying logic flawed.

And if I may - I think a better arguement isn't that "Tarmogoyf is the best creature choice", because for a variety of reasons, that's debateable (rightly or wrongly). It's that "Tarmogoyf is the best creature choice for a overly wide set of roles. When it comes to creature combat, blocking, as a finisher, and some other roles, Tarmogoyf is simply the best, and that can't (really) be argued with.

(Eg, you could argue that Pridemage, or Grim Lavamancer, are perfectly playable creatures with 'Goyf around. True - but that's because they do different things from what 'Goyf does.)

Bryant Cook

08-11-2009, 02:56 PM

Once again proving that you haven't even read the argument. If you don't care to read the argument then don't bother responding to me.

I read your arguments. But you seem to contradict yourself every few posts, much like Jack Elgin. What's the point of arguing with someone who's doing it for you?

Also, I was addressing the thread as a whole, more or less, in my last post.

Nessaja

08-11-2009, 03:01 PM

The arguement of the pro-banning people is pedantic and subjective. Neither of those means it's wrong - but it's very possible they understand the arguement, and disagree with it, and further evidence will not be persuasive because they find the underlying logic flawed.
That's fine, but that's actually countering the argument. What those 2 are doing is countering argument A with argument B'. There's absolutely no problem with cards being superior over another. Mystical Tutor is better then Merchant Scroll, you don't hear anyone complaining about that. The argument made against Tarmogoyf is not that he's better then Werebear and Quirion Dryad, as well as all other creatures printed in green, yet they respond as if they were countering that argument - an argument not even made in the first place.

The argument is that he limits deck deck design space because he's the better choice 9 out of 10 times. And with that, not only limiting creature base, but also combinations of colors in viable Legacy decks. That there will always be creatures that are better then others is not a counter argument to that. That Mogg Fanatic is better then Monns Goblin Raiders only obsoletes creatures on color, it by far does not have the impact of limiting deck design because a certain color must be ran to compete.

And note, this is trivial, I know that Wizards is not going to ban Tarmogoyf. But that does not mean that the format would very likely get a big boost in diversity if Tarmogoyf wasn't there anymore. In the mean time, I'll just play with and against Tarmogoyf like anyone else - does not mean that Tarmogoyf is healthy for the format.

And if I may - I think a better arguement isn't that "Tarmogoyf is the best creature choice", because for a variety of reasons, that's debateable (rightly or wrongly). It's that "Tarmogoyf is the best creature choice for a overly wide set of roles. When it comes to creature combat, blocking, as a finisher, and some other roles, Tarmogoyf is simply the best, and that can't (really) be argued with.
It's pretty much what I meant.

I read your arguments. But you seem to contradict yourself every few posts, much like Jack Elgin. What's the point of arguing with someone who's doing it for you
That's a blatant lie. Please point out to me where exactly I contradict myself and I'll gladly take away your confusion. If not I'd advice you not to call me inconsistent in my argumentation when it's not the case.

Finn

08-11-2009, 03:06 PM

A card being strictly better or "obsoleting" another card is no reason to ban it...unless we want a format filled with Ironclaw Orcs.Yes. But a card obsoleting whole swaths of things IS a reason.

Flash was banned because it obsoleted

Abjure

but also...

Abolish
Abomination
Aboroth
Abu Jafar
Abe Lincoln
Abercrombie and Fitch
etc.

All it did was obsolete some things. Why the hell was this card banned?

Since we are arguing a matter of degree and opinion here and not black and white (how much is a tolerable amount of single card domination?), no argument of this sort can possibly hold water.

Next.

Ectoplasm

08-11-2009, 03:17 PM

I'm always reading about WotC 'admitting goyf was a mistake' but I've never seen any source on this?

Anyone?

:rolleyes:

nitewolf9

08-11-2009, 03:23 PM

I love Tarmogoyf. Especially when my opponents cast it turn 2. Play decks that don't lose to Vanilla dudes or man-up.

What are your thoughts on Counterbalance?

Bryant Cook

08-11-2009, 03:28 PM

What are your thoughts on Counterbalance?

I hate the card. But I don't think it needs to be banned, I don't start threads crying about how it should be. I just do what need to be done, I adapt.

Nightmare

08-11-2009, 03:30 PM

Tacosnape

08-11-2009, 03:30 PM

- You can not make a blue red deck and compete with decks that have Tarmogoyf in the creature department.
- You can not make a blue black deck and compete with decks that have Tarmogoyf in the creature department.
- You can not make a blue white deck and compete with decks that have Tarmogoyf in the creature department.
- You can not make a combination of blue white black red and have a deck that can compete with Tarmogoyf when it comes to creature combat.

Says you. I say Tribal decks can compete. As can decks with creatures that actually do things other than be big. As can decks that take Tarmogoyf out of the equation.

Dark Confidant can out combat Tarmogoyf because the two cards you get to draw to your opponent's one can make their Tarmogoyf be NOT IN PLAY. Meddling Mage can do it by -naming- Tarmogoyf. Want a 2-mana threat that can be outrace him? Tombstalker. Done.

Is Tarmogoyf the best creature in Legacy? Absolutely. So what? Something's always going to be the "Best Creature." Tarmogoyf can easily be competed with and beaten by nongreen decks in a multitude of ways.

KrzyMoose

08-11-2009, 03:35 PM

Is Tarmogoyf the best creature in Legacy? Absolutely. So what? Something's always going to be the "Best Creature."

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but I don't think that is the argument.

I think the argument is that Tarmogoyf is the best creature in every color.

Like, Psychatog was the best creature for a while. But, only one deck could play him. Not so with Tarmogoyf.

Again, I'm not saying I want Tarmogoyf banned - in fact, I don't care and I think all this arguing is kinda pointless - nor am I saying that I agree or disagree with that statement, nor am I saying that that is a valid argument, but I figured I just throw that out there and make sure everyone is on the same page.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

08-11-2009, 03:38 PM

Is Tarmogoyf the best creature in Legacy? Absolutely. So what? Something's always going to be the "Best Creature." Tarmogoyf can easily be competed with and beaten by nongreen decks in a multitude of ways.

This right here is the whole point. Decks still win without 'Goyf, or without specifically countering 'Goyf. That is the difference between this and GP Flash. Is it a great card? Of course, but its just not "good enough" to ban.

adrieng

08-11-2009, 03:38 PM

Two years ago, I thought the same tarmogoyf needed to be banned. But now, I don't agree at all. Wizards printed lots of creatures than can compet or are even better than goyf. I'll name some :
-knight of the reliquary : this card is awesome 4/4 turn three (at least) that growns extremely fast better than goyf against tribal (the tabernacle+wastelock+maze of ith)
-lorescale coatl : can become a true monster really fast
-vendilion clique : better than goyf agaisnt control/aggro control
-qasali pridemage : better than goyf against counterbalance decks
-rhox war monk : better than goyf agaisnt aggro/burn

Ok, these creatures are hardly splashable but they are better than goyf at what they do.

Furthermore, you have all the tribal decks and tomb decks see merfolk gob and elves that can compete with goyf at the beginning of the game.

There are also a ton of answer in every colour see relic of progenitus.

To my mind the format is quite balanced, maybe sensei's should be banned.

Volt

08-11-2009, 03:46 PM

Each side of this argument has a few salient points which they keep repeating in slightly different ways. To save time, I suggest using the following key:

Ban Goyf!
1. Goyf is too easy to splash.
2. Goyf obsoletes many creatures.
3. Goyf was a mistake.
4. Nuh uh!
5. Uh huh!

Don't Ban Goyf!
a. Goyf is just a vanilla creature.
b. What about Force of Will/Brainstorm/Swords to Plowshares?
c. Quit whining, you pussy.
d. Nuh uh!
e. Uh huh!

From now on, just use the number or letter that applies to your argument. This will save a lot of typing.

Kuma

08-11-2009, 04:01 PM

b with a little bit of c.

nitewolf9

08-11-2009, 04:07 PM

3 + c

AngryTroll

08-11-2009, 04:50 PM

Ban Goyf!
1. Goyf is too easy to splash.
2. Goyf obsoletes many creatures.
3. Goyf was a mistake.
4. Nuh uh!
5. Uh huh!

Don't Ban Goyf!
a. Goyf is just a vanilla creature.
b. What about Force of Will/Brainstorm/Swords to Plowshares?
c. Quit whining, you pussy.
d. Nuh uh!
e. Uh huh!

From now on, just use the number or letter that applies to your argument. This will save a lot of typing.

1, 2; a, c; 3

Seriously:
I dislike that Goyf tries to muscle its way into every deck. I don't want to splash Green in Merfolk, Dreadstill, Landstill, or Painter, but my deck is probably better with Goyf in the 60 than without it.

Goyf is like Goblin Lackey, back in the pre-Goyf format: You built your deck to answer turn one Lackey, or you would lose to it. However, the answers to Lackey were spread across different colors, different spell types, and different strategies (Fanatic, Bolt, Swords, Mongoose, Darkblast, etc); instead of playing lots of different cards to answer Lackey, now Goyf just gets played in lots of decks. There was constant debate about whether Lackey needed banning or not, but people had to build their decks to deal with him or lose in the meantime.

DireLemming

08-11-2009, 05:00 PM

http://simonbelak.nfshost.com/diversity.png

Note I'm counting both maindeck and SB occurrences.

edit: in retrospective it was wrong to include SB cards. Doesn't change the result much though, same shape just scaled down a bit.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-11-2009, 05:46 PM

So did anyone else notice that A and B are no more valid as arguments than D, C, or E?

I read your arguments. But you seem to contradict yourself every few posts, much like Jack Elgin. What's the point of arguing with someone who's doing it for you?

Also, I was addressing the thread as a whole, more or less, in my last post.

This sounds like a fantastic excuse not to produce real arguments or actual examples of alleged fallacies.

Banning Force of Will is ridiculous. Legacy will then degenerate into Combo, Combo, and Suicide Black. Force of Will is the glue that holds this format together.

This is why I say that people have gotten spoiled by Tendrils. They tend to forget that combo decks used to lose to permanent hate.

Goyf can always be neutered because of its graveyard dependency. If anything, Wizards just hasn't ratcheted up the power of the graveyard hosers yet.

My God man. Crypt, Relic, Leyline and Faerie Macabre aren't enough for you? What do you want?

Graveyard hoses don't stop Goyf anywhere nearly as well as they worked against Threshold creatures. 7 cards in your graveyard is hard. A few permanents between all graveyards is easy to get to again.

andrew77

08-11-2009, 06:02 PM

People only want goyf banned because it is just retarded in blue decks. Decks playing counterspells should not have access to a creature as powerful as goyf. It is just plain wrong.

They should just errata goyf. If goyf had the following line of text it would be perfectly fine. Whenever you counter a spell sacriface tarmagoyf. There you have it. Problem solved. You don't have to ban goyf, but you fix the problem.

AnwarA101

08-11-2009, 06:03 PM

Just like good players only played Hulk-Flash at GP Columbus? Or did some people voluntarily play decks that were straight-up statistically worse?

Everyone realized how much better Flash was than virtually every other deck in the format even if this realization happened after GP Columbus.

Everyone doesn't agree with this statement about CounterTop because the results are less conclusive and less lop-sided. Its not that CounterTop isn't the best deck, the question is it in a way that's detrimental to the format. You obviously believe that it is. I'm not convinced that the deck is too good for the format. We simply disagree about that conclusion. I'm not sure there is anyway to reconcile our differences.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-11-2009, 06:48 PM

JeroenC

08-11-2009, 07:10 PM

Merfolk, Standstill, Goblins, Ichorid, Tendrils, Dreadstill, Chalice Aggro. All of these are probably strong enough to be considered "top decks" if you include Sui-Goyf in that list. None of them wins by Goyf beats. Last tournament I was at, I did not see a Goyf across from me all day long. I'm quite certain that would've been different in the era of most of the banned cards. Some cards on that list are relics and should probably be unbanned, but Goyf should not be banned.

Nessaja

08-11-2009, 07:15 PM

Says you. I say Tribal decks can compete. As can decks with creatures that actually do things other than be big. As can decks that take Tarmogoyf out of the equation.
In a format like legacy you should not be limited to playing Tribal to compete with all other aggro focused decks. Tribal is pretty much the biggest aggro design constrained in the format as it needs atleast 20 cards. I already said that Tribal can compete and I fully acknowledge that. I'm talking about the design space outside tribal decks for decks with an aggro component. A lot of color combinations that want to have a aggro component are not viable on forehand because they can't duke it out with tarmo.

Combinations of Blue, Black, Red, White currently do not have a legacy viable archetype that has an aggro component even though Black, White and Red are creature colors. I do believe that Goyf (and lately Wizards recent love for any creature that has green in it War Monk, Pridemage, Couatl) plays a big deal in this, if those color combinations were capable of putting down solid creatures a legacy deck should be easily made around them.

The only thing those decks currently offer are control decks with combo wins, Sitflenought or Painterstone. Or heavy control without an aggro component.

Sidenote; you're more or less proving that you didn't bother reading my previous posts.

Dark Confidant can out combat Tarmogoyf because the two cards you get to draw to your opponent's one can make their Tarmogoyf be NOT IN PLAY. Meddling Mage can do it by -naming- Tarmogoyf. Want a 2-mana threat that can be outrace him? Tombstalker. Done.
You listed some cute possible situations but I hope you realize you're stretching to make an argument. If the above were true the UWb fish would be a top tier deck by now, I can argue this creature by creature but we might as well look at reality and see that what you're proposing is just utter bull****.

If you think that you can make a deck without Tarmogoyf and still a strong (strong in this sense meaning legacy viable, capable of winning tournaments) aggro component then be my guest. In fact; I challenge you to make a competitive aggro deck (not tribal) that does not include goyf. Currently there's exactly one with Dragon Stompy. Anyways, when you're done ask yourself if the deck would be better with Tarmogoyf, if the answer is yes then you might finally understand the problem.

Is Tarmogoyf the best creature in Legacy? Absolutely. So what? Something's always going to be the "Best Creature." Tarmogoyf can easily be competed with and beaten by nongreen decks in a multitude of ways.
Usually a best creature has the restriction of not being splashable or atleast not this easy. Before Tarmogoyf the best creature without Tribal Interaction was probably Psychatog perhaps Exalted Angel.. or perhaps Werebear or perhaps even Quirion Dryad or.. maybe even Phyrexian Negator? Before there was no such thing as the best creature for every single deck, each deck had creatures that fit their strategy best and therefore were the best creature for that specific deck. Now, no matter what (aggro/aggro control/control aggro - not tribal) deck you build, the best creature you'll get is Tarmo, or alternatively, if you don't use Tarmo, don't compete.

So, so what? Tarmogoyf didn't just became the best creature, he become the best creature for pretty much every viable deck type. From the perspective of a deck designer, that's boring and lame. It takes away creativity. When a card is the best to run no matter what type of deck you're coming close to Vintage shenanigans where certain cards are a must-run. It makes for a much more interesting format without cards that are a must-run no matter what color.

MTG-Fan

08-11-2009, 10:09 PM

That's only one part of the puzzle. It's not simply about Countertop Goyf being the best shell in the format. The entire format generally is devolving into shells that could be labelled Sui-Goyf, Burn-Goyf, Control-Goyf, Survival-Goyf. Tribal decks remain, and Tendrils sees a bit of play, but the main strategy of most top decks in the format now is to attack with Tarmogoyf.

Attacking with Goyf is the central strategy of most of the best decks in the format?

What about Enchantress?

Stax?

Merfolk that do just fine w/o Goyf?

Goblins?

Ad Nauseam Tendrils?

Ichorid?

43 Lands?

Natural Order lists that don't necessarily need Goyf to win?

Dragon Stompy?

Painter decks?

Dreadstill?

Landstill?

Burn that is perfectly competitive w/o Goyf?

Mono White Control (Quinn)?

Mono Blue Control?

Volt

08-11-2009, 11:03 PM

Attacking with Goyf is the central strategy of most of the best decks in the format?

What about Enchantress?

Stax?

Merfolk that do just fine w/o Goyf?

Goblins?

Ad Nauseam Tendrils?

Ichorid?

43 Lands?

Natural Order lists that don't necessarily need Goyf to win?

Dragon Stompy?

Painter decks?

Dreadstill?

Landstill?

Burn that is perfectly competitive w/o Goyf?

Mono White Control (Quinn)?

Mono Blue Control?

It believe it has already been conceded that combo, tribal aggro, and chalice aggro decks are exceptions to the "everything plays goyf" rule.

Several of the decks you listed above are barely played, let alone considered "best decks." That includes Enchantress, Stax, MWC, and MUC.

Arguably, the best version of Dreadstill does run goyf (and Firespout).

Some versions of Landstill run goyf. Obviously, the WUB version does not.

Just sayin.

Parcher

08-11-2009, 11:56 PM

I hate the card. But I don't think it needs to be banned, I don't start threads crying about how it should be. I just do what need to be done, I adapt.

a⋅dapt
/əˈdæpt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-dapt]

–verb (used with object)
1. To view both the Counterbalance, and the non-changeable card that will be revealed to it's trigger, and casting your whole hand into it anyway.

–verb (used without object)
2. To lose to Forests.

Actually on-topic; The vast majority of actually winning Merfolk lists run Tarmogoyf as well.

gravemind123

08-12-2009, 01:04 AM

Actually on-topic; The vast majority of actually winning Merfolk lists run Tarmogoyf as well.

That isn't true at all, a quick deckcheck look shows that only 1 of the 10 most recent Merfolk Top 8s had Goyf in the deck.

Although it is a bit sad that 'Goyf is playable in almost any deck that can reasonably splash green and attacks to win I don't care. The only reason I dislike 'Goyf is that it obsoleted some cool creatures, but that is what happens.

Parcher

08-12-2009, 12:03 PM

If you rely on DeckCheck as your authority on what decks are doing well in the Eternal formats, you are in for a rude suprise if you ever actually play in them.

gravemind123

08-12-2009, 06:49 PM

Well, you haven't exactly presented any evidence to back up your statement, what evidence do you have the UG Merfolks are doing better more consistently than mono-U?

Parcher

08-13-2009, 12:27 AM

Well, you haven't exactly presented any evidence to back up your statement, what evidence do you have the UG Merfolks are doing better more consistently than mono-U?

Is this a fucking court of law? Why do I need to present evidence? Why should I care what a bunch of randoms believe? This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which involves the pre-eminence of Goyf in Legacy. Including in Merfolk, a tribal deck where he shouldn't belong.

To answer your question though; My evidence comes from playing in actual real-life tournaments. In America.

In these, Merfolk without Goyf run into decks running playsets of Volcanic Eruption main deck. And they lose. Merfolk has become such a staple that every deck has answers to, or already beats Mono-Blue versions. Hell, one of the main reasons Zoo is doing so well is it creams the plethora of Merfolk decks.

To use your example, of the latest 20 listed Merfolk decks on DeckCheck, only four ran Tarmogyf. But three of those four were American. The rest were all Euro.

I guess that Euros are too afraid of the omnipresent, "Wasteland your Tropical...........and then I Extirpate it. I win!!!!! Hurray!! Hurray!!! Kewl!! I'm awesome!!!! Fuck yeah! Deal with that!!! Never saw that coming....didja??!" in that area to run more than one color.