Sylvan Library + WoW

[Mystical_Jackass]

I was wondering if someone who's experienced with these rulings could sorta walk me through this. I've literally ask several players, I get different opinions from everyone on how it works... lol. I'm still ambiguous about this; It's very serious that I get this right, otherwise I may have possibly won games that I shouldn't have, etc.

I'll post the card text below for each:

Sylvan Library
At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

Words of Wilding
1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, put a 2/2 green Bear creature token into play instead.

My confusion mainly in how the 2 extra card draw works. I assumed that I could draw my card for the turn, then pay 2 mana to skip the next two cards I would draw from Library to put 2x Bears in play and lose zero life. Is this totally wrong? Or are all 3 cards drawn for the turn treated the same... and no matter what, if 2 are not put back to library's ability I lose 4 life???

I also heard that.. even if I had like, a howling mine in play, that would still cost me 4 life to the library's ability? Is this also true, or is it JUST the 2 extra cards drawn for my draw step.

Help please!!!

[Zinch]

Like the sylvan library says, you have to chose 2 cards from your hand drawn that turn and for each of those cards, pay 4 life or return it to the top of your library. That's all.
If you skip 2 of the draws from your turn, you'll have to chose 2 cards drawn that turn. Because you have skipped 2 draws, you could only chose 1 card (the card you drawn from the turn) and chose to keep it or return to the top of your library.
If you have both the library and the mine and you replace 2 draws for the wow, then you can still chose 2 cards drawn that turn, so for each of those 2 cards you chose to pay lifo or returning it to the top of your library.

In conclusion: If you don't replace all the draws, you have to pay life or return up to 2 cards drawn to the top of your library.

[Mystical_Jackass]

soo.... with Words of Wilding out, even if you pay 2 to put two tokens into play INSTEAD of two of your draws, library still triggers telling you to pay 4 to keep a card, correct?

I think my problem is I was thinking of the 2 extra cards as something that's separate from my draw phase.

I guess that makes sense. Somewhat confusing at first, but I think I sort of get it. Thanks

[quicksilver]

The cards you put back are any cards that have been drawn this turn, whether drawn for your turn, through the library, or howling mine, they are all treated the same.
If you want to be able to draw a card then you cannot make any extra bears. you can only make extra bears if you don't draw any cards.

If you choose to activate sylvan library you have to put two cards back that were drawn this turn (or pay 4 life per card) even if you drew no cards with the library.

So in the examples you have above:

Library + WoW + skip two draws: You can skip two draws to make 2 bears, however you will have to put back the card you drew for your turn or pay 4 life. Since you choose to use the library you now must now choose 2 cards you have draw this turn. The only card you have drawn is the card you drew for the turn, therefore you must choose this card. Now you either have to put that card back or pay 4 life.
Net result = +2 bears and (no cards or (+1 card and -4 life))

Library + WoW + Mine + skip two draws: Same as with the above step only now you have two cards you must choose and either pay 4 life per card or put them back.
Net result = +2 bears and (no cards or (+1 card and -4 life) or (+2 cards and -8 life))

Library + WoW + skip 3 draws: You have drawn no cards this turn so you do not have any you can put back and you do not have to pay 4 life.
Net Result = +3 bears and no cards and -0 life.

Library + WoW + Mine + skip 4 draws: Same as previous one.
Net Result = +4 bears and no cards and -0 life.

[Nightmare]

Quicksilver's response is the most accurate, although I'd add this caveat:

if you choose to stack the resolutions of the Howling Mine and the Sylvan Library so that you draw for Sylvan Library FIRST, then it won't recognize that you'll be drawing from the Howling Mine. So you could, in theory, have the following result:

Library + WoW + Mine + skip three draws: You have drawn no cards by the resolution of the Library, and so you don't need to put any cards back, or pay any life. Afterward, you draw a card from Howling Mine.
Net result = +3 bears and (+1 card)

[quicksilver]

Quicksilver's response is the most accurate, although I'd add this caveat:

if you choose to stack the resolutions of the Howling Mine and the Sylvan Library so that you draw for Sylvan Library FIRST, then it won't recognize that you'll be drawing from the Howling Mine. So you could, in theory, have the following result:

Library + WoW + Mine + skip three draws: You have drawn no cards by the resolution of the Library, and so you don't need to put any cards back, or pay any life. Afterward, you draw a card from Howling Mine.
Net result = +3 bears and (+1 card)

Ahh very true, I thought howling mine triggered during your upkeep.

[cdr]

I almost forget at first, too - it's actally triggered in the draw step all the way since Alpha.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Thanks for the feedback, Quicksilver & Nightmare, it makes perfect sense how you described it.

Man, I can see that card bringing much confusion to the table Lol. :laugh:

[Valtrix]

One thing I find interesting is how the library is worded, because it cares about which cards have been drawn this turn.


9.1. A player draws a card by putting the top card of his or her library into his or her hand. This is done as a turn-based action during each player's draw step. It may also be done as part of a cost or effect of a spell or ability.

Now, library cares about cards drawn this turn, but the way it's worded it has no ways to keep track of those specific cards. I tried checking the rules as well, and I can't see either if there's a way for this "card tracking" to be covered. Granted we can probably just deal with this issue by courtesy/trust, does anybody have ideas why it's not more "fool proof"? What happens if I brainstorm in my upkeep, do I then need to show if I'm putting back a card that I drew that turn by "keeping track" of the other cards I drew this turn? And who's to say I don't put a card in my hand, then replace it with a different one, but making it look the same?

[Nessaja]

You usually put your hand face down when using Sylvan Library.

[Valtrix]

But what happens if I brainstorm in my upkeep? Should I really have "two hands" that whole time until after library's ability is finished? I guess I'm just wondering more why there's nothing to cover this, because the rules try to be so complete :P

[Anusien]

But what happens if I brainstorm in my upkeep? Should I really have "two hands" that whole time until after library's ability is finished?
Yes.

This isn't a rules issue, it's a "How we play Magic" issue. If you play Sylvan Library, it's your responsibility to keep those cards you drew separate. If you can't do that (because you shuffle them into your hand or something), you may be unable to put those cards back for Sylvan Library.

[sunshine]

Even possibly cooler interaction with Sylvan was Abundance, netting you three new non-lands (or whatever you wanted) each turn. Also, turning Pursuit of Knowledge into "Draw seven next turn."

[quicksilver]

So what if you don't play with sylvan library and you brainstorm during your upkeep and you mix the cards in your hand. Then before you draw step, your opponent who has a Vedalkan Orrery out plays sylvan lilbrary and donates it to you. Can he get you to have a game loss because you failed to maintain which cards you have drawn this turn?

[Anusien]

So what if you don't play with sylvan library and you brainstorm during your upkeep and you mix the cards in your hand. Then before you draw step, your opponent who has a Vedalkan Orrery out plays sylvan lilbrary and donates it to you. Can he get you to have a game loss because you failed to maintain which cards you have drawn this turn?
Now that we've established this can never ever possibly happen....

Sylvan Library's activation is optional
You can always put back two cards drawn from Sylvan Library
If your opponent surprises a Sylvan Library on you, a reasonable judge is going to give you some leeway to honestly and accurately represent which cards you had drawn previously.