Natural Order + Progenitus tendency

[Tinefol]

I really don't like the general direction we are sliding into. Ever since the release of Conflux NO + Progenitus are more and more often thrown into random decks containing green creatures (which is a solid chunk of the field), and I have a strong feeling we are experiencing the same thing that happened to Vintage: throw Tinker + Colossus (or the more recent Inkwell Leviathan) into your random deck with blue and randomly enjoy your 3 mana fattie. Except that it's less random with 4 NO, and Progenitus is harder to deal with than Colossus.

I do understand that NO costs 2GG, making it harder to cast than Tinker, that most Vintages decks already contain both blue and artifacts, while in Legacy running green and green creatures isn't mandatory. I don't even think that NO+Progenitus is that strong, I just don't like how easily (though it has its restrictions on deckbuilding, there is no 'standalone' Order combo deck) that's thrown into bunch of decks, just because its a 'cool' and powerful trick. NO doesn't really care about or improve the general focus of the deck, you just randomly bring Progenitus in and bash.

And I don't even know what to propose there, just sharing my thoughts :/

[SilverGreen]

It's just a good and effective combination of cards, with many ways to be responded to, by a plethora of diferent decks. I personally see it as a much more fair "combo" than Top+CB (or first-turn-Lackey in the past), and even this one isn't exactly the end of the world nowadays.

[eq.firemind]

I just don't like how easily (though it has its restrictions on deckbuilding, there is no 'standalone' Order combo deck) that's thrown into bunch of decks, just because its a 'cool' and powerful trick. NO doesn't really care about or improve the general focus of the deck, you just randomly bring Progenitus in and bash.
Agreed.
I really don't like the "Oops, I win" cards. Each new "OOPS" makes Force of Will better and better and that's clearly not the thing format needs.

[Tinefol]

It's just a good and effective combination of cards, with many ways to be responded to, by a plethora of diferent decks. I personally see it as a much more fair "combo" than Top+CB (or first-turn-Lackey in the past), and even this one isn't exactly the end of the world nowadays.

While Top+CB and/or Lackey may be more powerful than Natural Order, they require a whole deck to be built around it. They work for the focus of the deck. Not much of a case with Natural Order, even though it certainly puts some restrain on deck construction. That's why Icompare it to Vintage's use of Tinker in that way.
Another analogy - painter/stone in a much less degree is the same thing.

[JeroenC]

Meh. Decks don't really have to be "built around" CBTop. Any deck with a "regular" curve that can make UU can play CBTop if they want.
And any deck with green creatures that can make 2GG can play NOGenitus if they want.

[MMogg]

While Top+CB and/or Lackey may be more powerful than Natural Order, they require a whole deck to be built around it. They work for the focus of the deck. Not much of a case with Natural Order, even though it certainly puts some restrain on deck construction. That's why Icompare it to Vintage's use of Tinker in that way.
Another analogy - painter/stone in a much less degree is the same thing.

Think of NO as a kind of tutor. Don't you feel you may be a little too ideological in this instance, thinking about what a Magic deck ought to be as opposed to what it is? :confused: As far as I see it, Magic has always been about breaking cards and NO is no different.

[FoolofaTook]

There's no way that Natural Order + Progenitus is breaking the Legacy metagame. The cost of playing NO makes it hard to get off against some decks and the fact that you have to sacrifice a green creature makes it a potential 2 for 1 against counter magic and even then there are ways to deal with Progenitus after he lands.

If the meta was awash in commonly played green creatures that weren't really effective on their own then there might be a problem, but ditching a mongoose or a goyf or even a pridemage without knowing that your big fatty was going to land sounds like a negative play in a lot of situations.

As to the emphasis that NO + Progenitus places on counter magic, really it doesn't. The decks that play the combo that don't have counter magic are going to be a bye for storm combo and the decks that do have counter magic already have similar (better) options available, like Stiflenought.

[MTG-Fan]

NO->Progenitus is just really, really good. Before the printing of Progenitus, at least the creatures you brought into play could be StP'd and such, but right now, Progenitus makes it all too easy to just win at the cost of 4 mana.

And it is, honestly, ridiculously easy to beat Force of Will in such a deck if you run lots of discard via Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize.. I literally have never lost a match to a blue deck of any kind with my Natural Order Rock deck.

And it is pretty boring after the novelty wears off. It's just as if they printed this card:

Progenital Endowment 2GG
Enchantment

Progenital Endowment has shroud.
When Progenital Endowment comes into play, put 2 counters on it. During your attack phase, remove a counter from Progenital Endowment. When you remove the last counter, you win the game.


If you think about NO this way, it's pretty clear how boring and borderline broken it is.

I would recommend either banning Progenitus, or banning NO. They both cannot be in the format. Before the printing of Progenitus, NO was completely fair.

[rsaunder]

I have lost one game, ever, to progenitus. It's a threat, yes, but it's so resource intensive and easy to get around that it's really a non-issue.

[Koby]

You mean you don't pack Perish/Hibernation and just rape green decks?

Quit complaining you wussy!

[AngryTroll]

If you think about NO this way, it's pretty clear how boring and borderline broken it is.

I would recommend either banning Progenitus, or banning NO. They both cannot be in the format. Before the printing of Progenitus, NO was completely fair.

Natural Order is still pretty fair. The double green in the casting cost and needing to have a green creature in play forces you to play it in a pretty specific deck, unlike Tinker.

There are a lot of cards that deal with Progenitus, spread across most colors. Blue obviously has countermagic. White has Swords to Plowshares for the creature you want to sacrifice to it, Wrath, Mout, Humility, Wing Shards, and about a million other things it can do. Black has Perish, Damnation, and board sweepers. Other Green decks have a harder time, but what kind of Green deck can't either go grab its own Progenitus, or splash a color that can help? Finally, red has sweepers for most of the common green creatures that sac to NO.

Overall, I think it's a pretty fair combo. Oath of Druids, on the other hand, would be pretty disgusting. And the only green deck to not rum Tarmogoyf.

[MTG-Fan]

I have lost one game, ever, to progenitus. It's a threat, yes, but it's so resource intensive and easy to get around that it's really a non-issue.

Turn 1, Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
Turn 2, Wall of Roots
Turn 3, NO

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

[MTG-Fan]

Natural Order is still pretty fair. The double green in the casting cost and needing to have a green creature in play forces you to play it in a pretty specific deck, unlike Tinker.


Double-green is really not a problem. In Rock builds, you run mana acceleration dudes like Wall of Roots / BoP and Bayous. In CounterTop builds, you run Tropical Islands and Tarmogoyfs/Mongoose. Etc.



There are a lot of cards that deal with Progenitus, spread across most colors. Blue obviously has countermagic. White has Swords to Plowshares for the creature you want to sacrifice to it, Wrath, Mout, Humility, Wing Shards, and about a million other things it can do. Black has Perish, Damnation, and board sweepers. Other Green decks have a harder time, but what kind of Green deck can't either go grab its own Progenitus, or splash a color that can help? Finally, red has sweepers for most of the common green creatures that sac to NO.


1. Countermagic is almost a non-issue if you run discard, or Shusher, or whatever.

2. Swords to Plowshares the creature you're saccing?! Do you realize that doesn't work, right? Saccing the creature is part of the cost of casting the spell, so unless you go about StPing every green creature they have in play before they can cast NO, you won't stop it. STP is 100% useless vs. NO.

3. Who runs Perish and Damnation? No one. Wrath, Humility, and Moat are decent options, but right now you only see those cards in Landstill or MWC. And of course, discard can deal with that very easily.

[SilverGreen]

Who runs Perish and Damnation? No one.You'll play them, and me, and everyone else, if these cards become relevant to the metagame at some point, just the same way every other card will. Legacy is all about break stuff all the time.

Oh, and I ran three copies of Perish as techie SB cards in an event two weeks ago, and they served me in many games and very well, thanks. It has its merits, and I really think it deserves be took into account now, as a 1-3 SB card at least.

[TrialByFire]

I've never lost a game to Progenitus. I have lost many to Tinker. Not even close to the same power level.

Its like when Dreadnought was first reverted back to original functionality; everyone is putting it into everything. Except Dreadnought was much easier to cast.

[rsaunder]

Turn 1, Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
Turn 2, Wall of Roots
Turn 3, NO

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.Well, you can give perfect scenarios all day and it doesn't make the combo any better. A daze, counterspell, or force beats that and sets them back 2 turns and a card.

Know what else beats it?

Turn 1: Play 9 spells and tendrils of agony Via AdN. Oh sh*t!

[Jak]

Turn 1, Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, Chome Mox, Didgeridoo
Turn 2, Anaba Grunt
Turn 3, Labyrinth Minotaur

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

Didgeridoo is the problem not this green spell that costs 4.

[TeenieBopper]

Turn 1, Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, Chome Mox, Didgeridoo
Turn 2, Anaba Grunt
Turn 3, Labyrinth Minotaur

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

Didgeridoo is the problem not this green spell that costs 4.

I was totally going to troll this thread, but I can't possibly live up to this. Well played, good sir.

[herbig]

I was totally going to troll this thread, but I can't possibly live up to this. Well played, good sir.

I respectfully disagree. A picture of a cat saying something funny would have been better. E for effort though.

[AngryTroll]

2. Swords to Plowshares the creature you're saccing?! Do you realize that doesn't work, right? Saccing the creature is part of the cost of casting the spell, so unless you go about StPing every green creature they have in play before they can cast NO, you won't stop it. STP is 100% useless vs. NO.

3. Who runs Perish and Damnation? No one. Wrath, Humility, and Moat are decent options, but right now you only see those cards in Landstill or MWC. And of course, discard can deal with that very easily.

Swords depends on the build. If it's in a Thresh engine, it's possible if they don't run many green creatures. I was thinking of a tournament report I saw today where the guy cast NO, sacced a creature, then had his Shusher Plowed. He activated it, then NO was countered.

Perish should see more play. It nails Goyf, Mongoose, and randomly wrecks Elves! and Survival, and costs three to get around Balance. Tariff's anothe option. Even Meekstone works, although it still lets Progenitus hit you for ten. Diabolic Edict and friends will work, when paired with more removal.

The discard package is pretty solid, but so is the countermagic package most blue decks are packing. Progenitus can run discard and the combo, and Thresh can run countermagic and relevant removal.

The Natural Order / Progenitus combo reminds me a little of Worldgorger Dragon combo. Sure, it's game winning, but every color has access to ways to stop it. Sure, some blue, white, and black have better answers than red and green, but even red and green have some choices.

Natural Order isn't nearly as broken as Tinker. It's a solid card, and a solid strategy, but it is a lot "more fair" than Tinker.

[MTG-Fan]

Well, you can give perfect scenarios all day and it doesn't make the combo any better. A daze, counterspell, or force beats that and sets them back 2 turns and a card.


This isn't a "perfect scenario". It happens often if you have 3-4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Thoughtseize in your deck.

You can easily clear an opponent's hand of counters before casting your NO.

[MTG-Fan]

Turn 1, Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, Chome Mox, Didgeridoo
Turn 2, Anaba Grunt
Turn 3, Labyrinth Minotaur

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

Didgeridoo is the problem not this green spell that costs 4.

See. comments like these tell me you have nothing intelligent to say in response to my statement.

[dirtyapes]

There are so many answers to NO-Prog, that it's just as fair as Stifle-Naught or any other 2 card combos. If it became a problem, people would board enough for it to not lose to it. I don't think that either needs to be banned.
Hell, I saw someone get off the combo and lose to a 20/20 Lorescale.

[MTG-Fan]

Swords depends on the build. If it's in a Thresh engine, it's possible if they don't run many green creatures. I was thinking of a tournament report I saw today where the guy cast NO, sacced a creature, then had his Shusher Plowed. He activated it, then NO was countered.


I don't quite understand the scenario you're describing here, but the fact is, saccing a creature to NO is part of the cost, so no creature that you sac can be Plowed in response to the NO being cast. As long as you sac during the casting of NO, spot removal can't disrupt NO, unless you only have one creature in play, and he knows you're going to try to cast NO, so he Plows it before you can even cast it.



The discard package is pretty solid, but so is the countermagic package most blue decks are packing. Progenitus can run discard and the combo, and Thresh can run countermagic and relevant removal.


The countermagic suite most Thresh decks play is 4 Daze and 4 Force of Will + CounterTop. This is easily beaten because Force can be ferreted out with discard, and Daze is the easiest spell in the world to play around if you have stuff like BoP and Wall of Roots in your deck. CounterTop will rarely be useful vs. Natural Order unless they maindeck stuff like Sower of Temptation, which is rare and even then, they need to have that one card in their top 3 to counter it with Counterbalance.

And all of the removal Thresh runs is useless vs. NO, as Progenitus has Pro:Everything, and as I said earlier, NO cannot be disrupted by spot removal in response to it being cast.

[TeenieBopper]

You know why NO+Progenitus isn't broken?

Because you have to play green.

And green sucks.


I couldn't help myself.

[Jak]

See. comments like these tell me you have nothing intelligent to say in response to my statement.

Okay, Cavius, let's play.

First off, that is a pretty good hand. It curves out well into a turn 3 NO and and gives you some protection, but it still gives the other deck 2-4 draws to find an answer (discard spell, removal for the wall, Edict for Prog, counter of NO, etc). This isn't broken at all. Very good and cool, but not too good by any means. I would personally be more scared to see Survival on the table with mana open, or CounterTop out with a Goyf in play. Things like NO--> Prog can get hated out easily and are still vulnerable to common hate right now.

Do I think it gives some green decks a nice boost? Yes. Do I think Natural Order is not fair? No. It may be close to an instant win if it resolves and you have a green creature in play, but it definitely is not.

[Jak]

You know why NO+Progenitus isn't broken?

Because you have to play green.

And green sucks.


I couldn't help myself.

Where's the fakespam quote?

I guess that would be more for a banne dlist discussion, but it still gets a "green sucks" point across.

[MTG-Fan]

There are so many answers to NO-Prog, that it's just as fair as Stifle-Naught or any other 2 card combos. If it became a problem, people would board enough for it to not lose to it. I don't think that either needs to be banned.
Hell, I saw someone get off the combo and lose to a 20/20 Lorescale.

It's not even remotely comparable to StifleNaught. NO is 100x better than that crappy combo because it only requires ONE card, and if you build your deck around it (lots of nice green creatures, fetchable Dryad Arbor, mana accel), it really is a one-card combo because so many of your cards are capable of paying the cost. (tarmogoyf, wall of roots, bop, arbor etc)

Just because some scrub somewhere let a Lorescale Coatl get to 20/20 (lol) before he cast NO, doesn't mean that good NO decks won't devastate Thresh practically every time they play.

And there are some answers to it, yes, but very very few decks run them maindeck. I can think of MWC/Quinn that runs Wrath MD, and possibly Landstill. Other than that, the only way to stop it for most decks is discard or counterspells.

[Jak]

It's not even remotely comparable to StifleNaught. NO is 100x better than that crappy combo because it only requires ONE card, and if you build your deck around it (lots of nice green creatures, fetchable Dryad Arbor, mana accel), it really is a one-card combo because so many of your cards are capable of paying the cost. (tarmogoyf, wall of roots, bop, arbor etc)

Just because some scrub somewhere let a Lorescale Coatl get to 20/20 (lol) before he cast NO, doesn't mean that good NO decks won't devastate Thresh practically every time they play.

And there are some answers to it, yes, but very very few decks run them maindeck. I can think of MWC/Quinn that runs Wrath MD, and possibly Landstill. Other than that, the only way to stop it for most decks is discard or counterspells.

Blue shell > green shell

[MTG-Fan]

Okay, Cavius, let's play.

First off, that is a pretty good hand. It curves out well into a turn 3 NO and and gives you some protection, but it still gives the other deck 2-4 draws to find an answer (discard spell, removal for the wall, Edict for Prog, counter of NO, etc). This isn't broken at all. Very good and cool, but not too good by any means. I would personally be more scared to see Survival on the table with mana open, or CounterTop out with a Goyf in play. Things like NO--> Prog can get hated out easily and are still vulnerable to common hate right now.


The fact that a 4 mana sorcery almost always wins you the game and obsoletes all spot removal that people commonly run IS broken.

A Survival can be dealt with, a resolved NO cannot, for most decks. There are very few decks that run MD answers to a resolved NO->Progenitus. Quinn runs Wrath, some Landstill runs Wrath... that's about it.

And Edicts are crap unless you know you're going to be playing against NO, and the NO player doesn't have more than 1 creature in play at the time, which is pretty rare.

Also, I'm not "Cavius", whoever the fuck that is, and I don't know why you keep calling me that.

[SilverGreen]

And there are some answers to it, yes, but very very few decks run them maindeck. I can think of MWC/Quinn that runs Wrath MD, and possibly Landstill. Other than that, the only way to stop it for most decks is discard or counterspells.So if you fear it so much, build your deck in a way you can stop it. The tools are all on the table, just choose one of them and be happy.

NO isn't Flash. You can beat it if you want to. Just choose what you want to do, if you want to beat NO, or CounterTops, or Stiflenoughs, or Ad Nauseams, or Goyfs, or Lackeys, or whatever you want. Build your deck accordingly, or try another deck. You just aren't suppose to beat everything.

[SilverGreen]

Also, I'm not "Cavius", whoever the fuck that is, and I don't know why you keep calling me that.Agree. It's obvious he's not Cavius. He's Clark Kent.

[MTG-Fan]

So if you fear it so much, build your deck in a way you can stop it. The tools are all on the table, just choose one of them and be happy.



The problem is not that you can't run answers... it's just that a card that costs 4 mana isn't just supposed to win the game for you in two turns if it resolves, especially when you can back that single card up with plenty of countermagic (blue shell) or discard and removal (rock shell).

It was pretty fair when most creatures it could bring into play didn't have "Protection from Everything".

[jimirynk]

Progenitus still gets rickrolled by dredge.

[Jak]

The problem is not that you can't run answers... it's just that a card that costs 4 mana isn't just supposed to win the game for you in two turns if it resolves, especially when you can back that single card up with plenty of countermagic (blue shell) or discard and removal (rock shell).

It was pretty fair when most creatures it could bring into play didn't have "Protection from Everything".

It's getting old. The fact that you think spending four mana with two of it being green and having to wait through 2 of your opponents turns to
win is broken is laughable. Even in a blue shell the combo is mediocre since you take out disruption an protection to add this combo and more green creatures. There is a reason NO is seeing some play and there are more reasons why most decks that have green don't bother with it.

[emidln]

NO / Prog isn't broken primarily because it requires you to play with Green cards not named Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip.

[MMogg]

Also, to talk about NO deck's disruption/discard and not mention plenty of other decks running discard is a bit lopsided. It's pretty simple for a duress to nab your NO on their first turn.

[MTG-Fan]

It's getting old. The fact that you think spending four mana with two of it being green and having to wait through 2 of your opponents turns to
win is broken is laughable. Even in a blue shell the combo is mediocre since you take out disruption an protection to add this combo and more green creatures. There is a reason NO is seeing some play and there are more reasons why most decks that have green don't bother with it.

Um, take out disruption and protection? It's simply an efficient win condition that takes up 5 slots in your deck.

Thresh already runs Mongoose/Predator/Goyf, so they can already support NO with ease.

Think about it this way. Would you rather spend your 4 mana slot to include something like Sower of Temptation, which would merely steal a creature, or NO, which will win you the game?

[Jak]

Um, take out disruption and protection? It's simply an efficient win condition that takes up 5 slots in your deck.

Thresh already runs Mongoose/Predator/Goyf, so they can already support NO with ease.

Think about it this way. Would you rather spend your 4 mana slot to include something like Sower of Temptation, which would merely steal a creature, or NO, which will win you the game?

Most Thresh lists do not run Mongoose. Adding No would need 4 Hierarch, 3 NO, and 1 Prog. You would need to cut down on things.

And to your question, I would run neither.

[Digital Devil]

I think NO + Progenitus is fair. I mean, it can still steal some games in certain situations, but, given that my opponent has a god-hand, Progenitus still wins on turn 5. I played against NO with both my Angel Stompy build and with Dragon Stompy. With Angel Stompy, I outraced my opponent with an early Exalted Angel. The second game I finally saw one of my 4x Aven Mindcensor and played it in response to NO.

With Dragon Stompy I usually have so many broken plays my opponent just dropped his jaw after my 2-turn win.

I open with City + Mox with Imprint, remove SSG and play Dragon with 2 Seething Songs in Hand. Opponent plays swamp, fails to therapy me. I topdeck mountain. Mana float with City, play the two songs, then the mountain, and proceed with a 22 point total-power attack. You see, many decks have ways to deal with Progenitus, as well as means to disrupt or outrace the combo. I personally haven't lost a single game after a resolved Progenitus. I have to admit I'm lucky, but a 4 mana, sorcery speed spell with a built in -1 makes it totally unattractive (to me).

[tsabo_tavoc]

This isn't a "perfect scenario". It happens often if you have 3-4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Thoughtseize in your deck.

You can easily clear an opponent's hand of counters before casting your NO.

It's not perfect, neither prevalent. A Natural Order in your first 10 cards? 50%. Also you need a creature/accel? 50%. That is 25% of the chance to possibly win on Turn 5. With the same odds Tendrils decks can win Turn 1. Landing a Progenitus would usually win the game in 2 Turns against Thresh and Merfolk, but by no means against Landstill, Dredge, Combo, Goblin, Stax.

I think Natural Order helps improve the Rock Archetype and Rock was heavily Green before the inclusion.


Also, I'm not "Cavius", whoever the fuck that is, and I don't know why you keep calling me that.

Cavius's latest banned user name is MTG-Guru, at least your name is far more modest.

[FoolofaTook]

It's not perfect, neither prevalent. A Natural Order in your first 10 cards? 50%. Also you need a creature/accel? 50%. That is 25% of the chance to possibly win on Turn 5. With the same odds Tendrils decks can win Turn 1. Landing a Progenitus would usually win the game in 2 Turns against Thresh and Merfolk, but by no means against Landstill, Dredge, Combo, Goblin, Stax.

And of course Stiflenought is still the thing that wins with counter backup kind of regularly on turn 4, which is when Progenitus would normally just be hitting play in most situations. Every deck I build worries about a turn 2 dreadnought and how to plan for that (if possible even given the build and timing.) I don't worry about NO + Progenitus at all because there are so many ways to die by the time it lands and if I get beat with 3 land on the board that's my fault not some two card combination.

[Dembones]

It's not even remotely comparable to StifleNaught. NO is 100x better than that crappy combo because it only requires ONE card, and if you build your deck around it (lots of nice green creatures, fetchable Dryad Arbor, mana accel), it really is a one-card combo because so many of your cards are capable of paying the cost. (tarmogoyf, wall of roots, bop, arbor etc)

Just because some scrub somewhere let a Lorescale Coatl get to 20/20 (lol) before he cast NO, doesn't mean that good NO decks won't devastate Thresh practically every time they play.

And there are some answers to it, yes, but very very few decks run them maindeck. I can think of MWC/Quinn that runs Wrath MD, and possibly Landstill. Other than that, the only way to stop it for most decks is discard or counterspells.


You're neglecting the fact that it still requires two cards. You're also neglecting the fact that it would take 6 turns for you to win the game IF you cast it on turn four without it being disrupted.

Go ahead and duress or cabal therapy your opponent for FoW, and then sac your green creature to flash it back to get rid of that daze, or swords, or wrath of god, or whatever. Natural Order just isn't that good.

[AngryTroll]

I don't quite understand the scenario you're describing here, but the fact is, saccing a creature to NO is part of the cost, so no creature that you sac can be Plowed in response to the NO being cast. As long as you sac during the casting of NO, spot removal can't disrupt NO, unless you only have one creature in play, and he knows you're going to try to cast NO, so he Plows it before you can even cast it.

...

And all of the removal Thresh runs is useless vs. NO, as Progenitus has Pro:Everything, and as I said earlier, NO cannot be disrupted by spot removal in response to it being cast.

You said it. The Thresh builds that play NO don't run a ton of creatures. It's really a two card combo, and every deck in the format runs ways to deal with creatures. Decks like Epic Survival run too many creatures for you to kill them all, but NO Thresh
is green creature light.


The combo is strong. But it isn't as strong as Dreadnought - Stifle, because, as mentioned, the blue shell is better than the green shell. After you resolve Natural Order, you still have to pass the turn twice. That gives your opponent time to look for answers. Now, they do have to be specific answers, because, as you mentioned, you can't Swords Progenitus. However, every color has access to these answers.

It isn't as strong as Ad Nauseum, because that deck is faster and can run almost as much disruption. It's strong, but not broken.

[adrieng]

I have tested all kind of NO combo, and i can say that this kinda of deck is at most tier 2. Your ideal hand is still very bad against any countertop decks.
Countertop packs vendilion clique, top to let fow on the top of the library and being discard proof, they can sword your turn two drop, some version play medling mage/gaddock in sb. Furthermore, a resolved counterbalance means you are in a bad postition cause lot of versions plays sower and they can counter close to each spells you are playing.
Goblin doesn't fear at all this kinda of hand if they start and lay a turn one lackey, you have almost lost the game. Goblin plays WW to destroy your wall, also nowadays goblin plays 3 perish in sb as they should.
Mefolk is also hard, they can play a turn two standstil that you have to answer, they pack cursecatcher/daze/fow/wasteland and a resolved progenitus is often to slow to race them. Your turn three progenitus means you are killing them turn 5, what's kinda slow.
Against standstil, they will laugh at your progenitus and just play wrath/humility/moat...
Goyf sligh/zoo can race taht quite easily.


I don't want to say that NO.deck sucks but for the moment, these decks are not competitive, but are in developpement (I am still testing these decks). Maybe something good will arise, maybe not. This combo is very fair, and not at all banworthy.

[MTG-Fan]

I think NO + Progenitus is fair. I mean, it can still steal some games in certain situations, but, given that my opponent has a god-hand, Progenitus still wins on turn 5. I played against NO with both my Angel Stompy build and with Dragon Stompy. With Angel Stompy, I outraced my opponent with an early Exalted Angel. The second game I finally saw one of my 4x Aven Mindcensor and played it in response to NO.

With Dragon Stompy I usually have so many broken plays my opponent just dropped his jaw after my 2-turn win.

I open with City + Mox with Imprint, remove SSG and play Dragon with 2 Seething Songs in Hand. Opponent plays swamp, fails to therapy me. I topdeck mountain. Mana float with City, play the two songs, then the mountain, and proceed with a 22 point total-power attack. You see, many decks have ways to deal with Progenitus, as well as means to disrupt or outrace the combo. I personally haven't lost a single game after a resolved Progenitus. I have to admit I'm lucky, but a 4 mana, sorcery speed spell with a built in -1 makes it totally unattractive (to me).

The difference between Dragon Stompy starts and a resolved NO is that you can deal with the stuff Dragon Stompy powers out SO EASILY. Swords to Plowshares on your Dragon after you play Seething Song, Mox, etc means I just like, 3-for-1'd you. You're going to to play Magus? I float mana for Smother/StP. If I resolve NO, you basically cannot do anything to remove it with most decks MD, and you have to hope you can race me.

[MTG-Fan]

It's not perfect, neither prevalent. A Natural Order in your first 10 cards? 50%. Also you need a creature/accel? 50%. That is 25% of the chance to possibly win on Turn 5. With the same odds Tendrils decks can win Turn 1. Landing a Progenitus would usually win the game in 2 Turns against Thresh and Merfolk, but by no means against Landstill, Dredge, Combo, Goblin, Stax.


Tendrils is also vulnerable to alot of combo hate that NO is not.

Your percentages are off. When I run 6-8 fetchlands that can fetch a Dryad Arbor, 4 Wall of Roots, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 BoP/Elves in a deck, I think my chances of getting a creature to sac in the first 4 turns are damn near close to 100%, meaning I only have to draw an NO to complete my combo. If you also run stuff like SDT, it makes it that much easier.

Of course, the beauty of NO is that you DON'T necessarily need to combo out every time. If you run Rock, you can just play the aggro or control game, then randomly win after casting Smothers/Deeds/Pulse/Vindicate on your opponent's good stuff, and depleting his hand with discard.

[MTG-Fan]

And of course Stiflenought is still the thing that wins with counter backup kind of regularly on turn 4, which is when Progenitus would normally just be hitting play in most situations. Every deck I build worries about a turn 2 dreadnought and how to plan for that (if possible even given the build and timing.) I don't worry about NO + Progenitus at all because there are so many ways to die by the time it lands and if I get beat with 3 land on the board that's my fault not some two card combination.

StifleNaught wins on turn 4 if it's lucky. Do you realize the likelihood of assembling all of those cards that early? You need Stifle, Naught, counterspells.

If you run NO, all you need is one of your fetchlands to get Arbor, or one of your many walls/goyfs/birds, and NO. That's it.

Also, you better hope you have CounterTop assembled before you play StifleNaught, because someone is just going to StP your Naught and 2-for-1 you. Can you StP Progenitus? Nope.

[Digital Devil]

The difference between Dragon Stompy starts and a resolved NO is that you can deal with the stuff Dragon Stompy powers out SO EASILY. Swords to Plowshares on your Dragon after you play Seething Song, Mox, etc means I just like, 3-for-1'd you. You're going to to play Magus? I float mana for Smother/StP. If I resolve NO, you basically cannot do anything to remove it with most decks MD, and you have to hope you can race me.
I wasn't comparing Progenitus with Dragon Stompy starts, because it's like comparing a lawn-mower with a comet. I was saying that even decks without real answers can just outrace it. I admit it is pretty difficult, but it's not like it's impossibile. Progenitus hits the board mid-late game and by the time you can cast it your opponent has pretty much taken you to the 1-digit life count, if not overwhelmed you. I'm referring to Zoo, Goblin, and Dragon Stompy. Other decks usually counter NO or kill it in other manners. Stifle/Nought is much harder to deal with, because it's quicker, and even if da big lobstah is both a creature and an artifact, thus making it easier to answer, it is the shell that makes it stronger. As posted above, blue shell > green shell. Speaking generally, I find NO it to be pretty fair, and not format-warping. Good, not broken. Otherwise we would all be playing Progenitus.

[JeroenC]

Nah, this guy can't be Cavius. Cavius would know how NOT to triple-post.

Anyway, are you honestly saying NOGenitus is more inherently broken than Stiflenaught or Storm Combo? Then you seriously have to revise your opinion about this format's clock. NOGenitus is good because it's extremely splashable- everyone and their dog is already playing Goyf anyway, so they might as well run some more critters + NO + Progenitus. But I've seen a lot more players lose the game after they got Progenitus into play than after they resolved Ad Nauseam, for example. The nature of Stiflenaught (in good Dreadstill lists) makes it 1: a higher speed of clock for the deck, but not necessary. 2: repeatable, which NOGenitus is a lot less. Also, the shell for both is different, and I daresay the shell for Dreadstill is better than the Rockshell.

Edit: discard is also at least as lethal to NOGenitus as it is protective.

[MTG-Fan]

I wasn't comparing Progenitus with Dragon Stompy starts, because it's like comparing a lawn-mower with a comet. I was saying that even decks without real answers can just outrace it. I admit it is pretty difficult, but it's not like it's impossibile. Progenitus hits the board mid-late game and by the time you can cast it your opponent has pretty much taken you to the 1-digit life count, if not overwhelmed you. I'm referring to Zoo, Goblin, and Dragon Stompy. Other decks usually counter NO or kill it in other manners. Stifle/Nought is much harder to deal with, because it's quicker, and even if da big lobstah is both a creature and an artifact, thus making it easier to answer, it is the shell that makes it stronger. As posted above, blue shell > green shell. Speaking generally, I find NO it to be pretty fair, and not format-warping. Good, not broken. Otherwise we would all be playing Progenitus.

You're assuming that the NO player has played nothing up til the point he casts NO. lol.

The fact of the matter is, Dragon Stompy starts are terribly vulnerable to 2-for-1s and worse. NO is not. NO is superior to any kind of threat Dragon Stompy can produce.

You're making all kinds of assumptions and broad generalizations, and it makes me wonder if you've ever even played against an NO deck.

[FoolofaTook]

StifleNaught wins on turn 4 if it's lucky. Do you realize the likelihood of assembling all of those cards that early? You need Stifle, Naught, counterspells.

If you run NO, all you need is one of your fetchlands to get Arbor, or one of your many walls/goyfs/birds, and NO. That's it.

Also, you better hope you have CounterTop assembled before you play StifleNaught, because someone is just going to StP your Naught and 2-for-1 you. Can you StP Progenitus? Nope.

Stiflenought is an "oops I win" combo in the opening hand against most opponents. It's not foolproof but it goes all the way a huge percentage of the time that you see it.

Your broken opening for NO + Progenitus requires that you get to 4 mana, through the Stifle/Wasteland/bad draw maze, that you are able to successfully cast it after you get there, and that the opponent doesn't have some way to get rid of or nullify Progenitus even after it lands. That's kind of a hugely conditional "oops I win".

Stiflenought you just cast and either the opponent has an answer or he loses and you get to do that on turn 2 at times, something you'll never get to do with NO + Progenitus. Humility doesn't save people from an early dreadnought because it can't land fast enough to do so.

[MTG-Fan]

Your broken opening for NO + Progenitus requires that you get to 4 mana, through the Stifle/Wasteland/bad draw maze, that you are able to successfully cast it after you get there, and that the opponent doesn't have some way to get rid of or nullify Progenitus even after it lands. That's kind of a hugely conditional "oops I win".


LOL... it is infinitely easier to get rid of Naught once it hits play than Progenitus. I can count on one hand the answers people play to Progenitus MD.

Practically every removal in the format deals with resolved Naught.



Stiflenought you just cast and either the opponent has an answer or he loses and you get to do that on turn 2 at times, something you'll never get to do with NO + Progenitus. Humility doesn't save people from an early dreadnought because it can't land fast enough to do so.

It is so easy to answer Stiflenought with the targeted removal everyone plays. If they do answer it, the game is likely a blow-out after that because they just 2-for-1'd you. An early Progenitus is almost impossible to answer for most decks.

[Digital Devil]

You're assuming that the NO player has played nothing up til the point he casts NO. lol.

The fact of the matter is, Dragon Stompy starts are terribly vulnerable to 2-for-1s and worse. NO is not. NO is superior to any kind of threat Dragon Stompy can produce.

You're making all kinds of assumptions and broad generalizations, and it makes me wonder if you've ever even played against an NO deck.

I played against Federico Testa (top16 @Annecy) and crushed him like a bug with Angel Stompy. I said, Angel Stompy. This is far to be considered a good deck anymore (and I say this with tears dropping from my eyes). Imagine what competitive decks can do. Maybe I was lucky, but I generally say that NO can be answered with much more ease than, say, Dreadnought, because the shell they're in are different. If you're talking about how it's easy to assemble the pieces of the combo, I know it's not difficult to have a green creature on the board, but 'Nought builds usually run Standstill/Top/Brainstorm/Trinket Mage, so it's not like Progenitus is better than 'Nought. They bot fit the surprise-win role, just like in different ways. And both ways are fair.

P.S. NO is still a -1 card. That's why I say it is fair and far to be considered broken.
P.P.S. The thread is about NO, not Dragon Stompy vs. NO.

[JeroenC]

Because there's absolutely no deck that drops Standstill after it drops Naught. And what is your definition of "early Progenitus"? Besides, if Progenitus is answered (Diabolic Edict, Wrath of God, Innocent Blood, WARREN WEIRDING, all of these still show up) you also just got a 2 for 1 against you. Just getting one 2 for 1 doesn't mean the game will become a blowout, that's just stupid.

[FoulQ]

StifleNaught wins on turn 4 if it's lucky. Do you realize the likelihood of assembling all of those cards that early? You need Stifle, Naught, counterspells.

If you run NO, all you need is one of your fetchlands to get Arbor, or one of your many walls/goyfs/birds, and NO. That's it.

Also, you better hope you have CounterTop assembled before you play StifleNaught, because someone is just going to StP your Naught and 2-for-1 you. Can you StP Progenitus? Nope.

NO decks win on turn 5 if it's lucky. Do you realize the likelihood of assembling all of those cards that early? You need Natural Order, preferably protection, a resolved green creature, and a minimum of 2 green mana and 4 lands in play.

If you run Stiflenaught, all you need is two mana, Stifle, and Dreadnaught. That's it. (In addition since you are playing blue you have plenty of filtering effects)

Also, you better hope you don't get fucking DAZED. Oh that's right, you used your thoughtseize to get rid of that instead of something more relevant. God forbid they have two counters because then you are fucked. And god forbid their deck could possibly win before turn 5.

Most decks that run Stiflenaught don't rely on the combo as an end-all be-all. There are a few combo decks that rely on the combo and hope for the best like Nourishing Lich, but even storm decks have multiple outs. So your argument that NORock has other ways to win can also apply to Dreadstill/Stiflenaught/whatever.

I've seen progenitus like, once, maybe. People are actually playing that garbage?

[MTG-Fan]

Everyone in this thread is too interested in dredging up the most obscure corner-cases (Edict effects pwn Progenitus, despite the fact that NO player will often have more than one creature, and Edicts are rarely run MD) and random anecdotes (I crushed some random guy like a bug with my Angel Stompy deck once, therefore it sucks) to seriously discuss this issue.

NO has the strong potential to top8 and win tournaments, and it's only a matter of time before someone does win a big tournament w/ it. I know the one guy barely lost to Nassif @ GP:Chicago with this NO Rock deck, and would've made top8 if he hadn't drawn his Progenitus in the last game of the match. So once people start to realize that NO is that good, it will be all over the place. I guarantee it.

[(nameless one)]

its another 3 card combo (progenitus + natural order + green creature)

give it some time and see...

it doesnt win you the game right away like painterstone combo but its not easily disrupted liked like stiflenought combo.

so far it hasnt taken over the format

i mean back in the day, lackey-gang combo was feared until we found ways to beat it, same thing with countertop combo....

at least its not as bad as tinkerlossus (its blue and blue has a lot of support) or landscroll combos...

[FoulQ]

Everyone in this thread is too interested in dredging up the most obscure corner-cases (Edict effects pwn Progenitus, despite the fact that NO player will often have more than one creature, and Edicts are rarely run MD) and random anecdotes (I crushed some random guy like a bug with my Angel Stompy deck once, therefore it sucks) to seriously discuss this issue.

NO has the strong potential to top8 and win tournaments, and it's only a matter of time before someone does win a big tournament w/ it. I know the one guy barely lost to Nassif @ GP:Chicago with this NO Rock deck, and would've made top8 if he hadn't drawn his Progenitus in the last game of the match. So once people start to realize that NO is that good, it will be all over the place. I guarantee it.

No, actually, most people are arguing that the Blue shell is better than the Rock shell. All of your arguments are seriously stupid and can be applied to any freaking deck. "NO player will often have more than one creature." Yes, and the dreadstill player will also often have more than one way to deal with removal, or will play a standstill in which case the disadvantage of getting "2-for-1ed" (which apparently is impossible with NO) is basically negated. Card-for-card arguments like this are meaningless.

Every fucking deck has the strong potential to top8 and win tournaments, I'm sure plenty of people would have made top 8 if they hadn't done some crazy crap, when you lose a game of magic you can't think of "what could have been" but rather "could have I done this differently to win?"'

And I like how the poster above mentions how stiflenought combo is easily disrupted, making NO better, and then goes on to say that tinkerlossus is very powerful because it is blue and blue has lots of support.

PLAYING STIFLENOUGHT IS NOT PLAYING DRAGON STOMPY. You are not playing the dreadnaught and praying there is no answer. It is a complementary strategy most of the time that serves as an oops-I-win factor just like Natural Order.

[Digital Devil]

NO has the strong potential to top8 and win tournaments, and it's only a matter of time before someone does win a big tournament w/ it. I know the one guy barely lost to Nassif @ GP:Chicago with this NO Rock deck, and would've made top8 if he hadn't drawn his Progenitus in the last game of the match. So once people start to realize that NO is that good, it will be all over the place. I guarantee it.
My quote (which, by means, is no proof NO sucks, I was just lucky by playing a "weak and unusual" deck, since I'm a terrible player, and winning against a good player doesn't mean a single thing, as I'm terrible and shall remain like that forever) was just to say each color has access to 1-2 answers to Progenitus. There are actually a few ways to deal with a resolved one: some are played, some aren't. I didn't say NO isn't capable of winning a major tournament. I said, before this post, that NO is good. But it's not broken. NO can turn disadvantage situations in advantage situations (say, I'm attacking with my Kird Ape and you're there with you lonely BoP, you land Progenitus and laugh @ me). I exactly said what FoulQ said. It's a surprise-win combo. Just like Stifle/Nought. I never said you are forced to play a card as soon as you draw it. Obviously, there are better moments to play a card. The only thing I said is that NO is better in Survival Decks than in a Rock shell, because it has mana acceleration and can land multiple creatures in the early turns, making harder for your opponent to kill on sight/Edict/Perish/Wrath/whatever all of your creatures. Plus, if you haven't got a single creature B4 casting NO, you can just fetch for that Dryad Arbor and land a 10/10. The only thing I was arguing was its mana cost. Costing 4 makes NO slow. Your opponent can draw countermagic and discard in the meanwhile, or just outrace you.

[DrJones]

I think it's stupid discussing about it the way it's done on this thread, totally disregarding the game state and the type of decks that can play the combo, but I think it's safe to state the following:

1. People saying that NO-Progenitus is a 2-3 card combo are totally wrong.
2. People saying that NO-Progenitus is -1 card advantage don't get the point, and they are like 8 years behind everyone in deckbuilding theory development.
3. People saying that the combo can be disrupted with Swords deserve to lose to progenitus in a tournament with three swords to plowshares sitting on their hand.
4. Casting Progenitus as soon as turn two is not difficult in the right deck, and bypassing counterspells is not really that hard either. Xantid Swarm, Shusher... even Boseiju works. If you only have to worry about counterspells (and there's no need to be fast against blue decks), you can set the combo a bit later but being sure that it will resolve.
5. Progenitus will almost always be a 2-turn clock, because I severely doubt people will start playing Concordant crossroads to make it faster. This is slow enough for many decks to outrace it.

[MTG-Fan]

Well, I just played a pretty long series of matches against Tsabo_Tavoc on MWS.

He was playing Armageddon Stax and I was playing NO Rock.

Now, I would say the matches were very close, but before MWS crashed on us, it was 2-0, 0-2, 1-2, and we were in the middle of our 4th match.

Every time I resolved NO, I won the game except when he topdecked an Armageddon with magus of the Tabernacle in play and 3 life left.

Also, I underestimated how much Chalice @ 1 hurts my deck. But all in all, I would say that I stand by my conviction that resolved NO usually means gg for most decks, and even against his, which runs Humility, armageddon, etc.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Tendrils is also vulnerable to alot of combo hate that NO is not.

Your percentages are off. When I run 6-8 fetchlands that can fetch a Dryad Arbor, 4 Wall of Roots, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 BoP/Elves in a deck, I think my chances of getting a creature to sac in the first 4 turns are damn near close to 100%, meaning I only have to draw an NO to complete my combo. If you also run stuff like SDT, it makes it that much easier.

Of course, the beauty of NO is that you DON'T necessarily need to combo out every time. If you run Rock, you can just play the aggro or control game, then randomly win after casting Smothers/Deeds/Pulse/Vindicate on your opponent's good stuff, and depleting his hand with discard.

We've just finished some games between your NO Rock and my Geddon Stax, the game statistics by far: 0-2, 2-0, 2-1, 1-0 in a Stax-Rock fashion. Too bad MWS interrupted the game.

I have to rectify my percentage counts as I could not know you run both Elves and Wall, and could not know you run Top. These make your Turn 5 kill rates a lot higher.

But your deck to be waaaay toooo strong and would monopoly the format? I suggest you test more intensive before posting here.

As a side note, Rock used to be Stax's traditional hard matchup. NO in place of Deed seems like doing Stax a favor, thus the above result. I don't mean NO is bad here. As I stated, it could improve the archetype. NO is powerful and fair.

[Jak]

Well, I just played a pretty long series of matches against Tsabo_Tavoc on MWS.

He was playing Armageddon Stax and I was playing NO Rock.

Now, I would say the matches were very close, but before MWS crashed on us, it was 2-0, 0-2, 1-2, and we were in the middle of our 4th match.

Every time I resolved NO, I won the game except when he topdecked an Armageddon with magus of the Tabernacle in play and 3 life left.

Also, I underestimated how much Chalice @ 1 hurts my deck. But all in all, I would say that I stand by my conviction that resolved NO usually means gg for most decks, and even against his, which runs Humility, armageddon, etc.

Now can you stop posting?

[MTG-Fan]

Now can you stop posting?

What? Just because I lost a few games to Stax doesn't mean anything.

If NO resolves, it's gg for 90% of decks. It was vs. Stax, and he mostly beat me with early Chalice @ 1 than anything else.

I'm fairly confident that if I played vs. any other deck like Thresh I would win >70% of the games, and vs. Stax it's actually 50/50, which is what the results showed, due to Chalice of the Void nullifying discard spells, and Humilty/Magus.

[beastman]

Turn 1, Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, Chome Mox, Didgeridoo
Turn 2, Anaba Grunt
Turn 3, Labyrinth Minotaur

How is that easy to deal with, again?

Or conversely, you put it into a CounterTop shell as a mid/late-game "oops, i win" card. Either way, it's ridiculously easy to win the game with this card.

Didgeridoo is the problem not this green spell that costs 4.

Winzor!!!1!

[Jak]

What? Just because I lost a few games to Stax doesn't mean anything.

If NO resolves, it's gg for 90% of decks. It was vs. Stax, and he mostly beat me with early Chalice @ 1 than anything else.

Remember, Stax is a deck that runs Humility...

Key words, "if it resolves". Even then it can still be answered which you so nicely pointed out in your report.

[MTG-Fan]

Key words, "if it resolves". Even then it can still be answered which you so nicely pointed out in your report.

Only by a few decks. And even then, they have to get pretty lucky to answer it consistently.

Thresh, for instance, cannot answer it if it resolves, like ever. And even decks like Stax, which have Humility and whatnot, have a hard time with it.

[JeroenC]

If Ad Nauseam resolves, it's GG for any deck. Your point being?

[Jak]

Only by a few decks. And even then, they have to get pretty lucky to answer it consistently.

Thresh, for instance, cannot answer it if it resolves, like ever. And even decks like Stax, which have Humility and whatnot, have a hard time with it.

Thresh won't let it resolve, if it does they lose. However, if you are trying to bait counters and play around Daze, Goyfs can still race.

Even if you do get Prog in play, aggro can race it, combo won't care, an control can usually answer it without too much difficulty. I'm not calling the card bad but you are just lying in your posts and your games where you actually tested didn't even change your opinion which is sad.

[beastman]

I have never had any trouble against the prog. With decks such as zoo and sligh, its very easy to just race them. With survival, I just thoughtsieze away their business, or get a fleshbag marauder and look at them. Decks like canadian thresh will never let you get the resources to cast or resolve NO, and if you just argue I'll just thoughtsieze away their answers, you are retarded. Thats not how it works. You can build a deck solely around abusing NO but then you have to find it and not get disrupted yourself. At the end of the day, it is simply a 4 mana sorcery that requires a creature to sac to it. Don't get me wrong, the card is great, but it's not that great.

[MTG-Fan]

Thresh won't let it resolve, if it does they lose. However, if you are trying to bait counters and play around Daze, Goyfs can still race.

Even if you do get Prog in play, aggro can race it, combo won't care, an control can usually answer it without too much difficulty. I'm not calling the card bad but you are just lying in your posts and your games where you actually tested didn't even change your opinion which is sad.

Dude, do you even understand what I'm saying? Thresh cannot beat NO, like almost ever. It is very easy to force counters out of their hand and to play around Daze.

I played a few matches against STAX. A fringe deck that runs stuff like Humility and Moat, and even then it was 50/50, and a large part of that due to them running Chalice of the Void. I admit NO is only 50/50 against Stax. But against alot of other decks, it has a clear advantage.

And even during playtesting, my claim that if NO resolves, it wins was backed up. Out of 4-5 successful NOs, he only came back after 1, which was due to extreme luck topdecking Armageddon at the exact moment he needed it.

[MTG-Fan]

I have never had any trouble against the prog. With decks such as zoo and sligh, its very easy to just race them. With survival, I just thoughtsieze away their business, or get a fleshbag marauder and look at them. Decks like canadian thresh will never let you get the resources to cast or resolve NO, and if you just argue I'll just thoughtsieze away their answers, you are retarded. Thats not how it works. You can build a deck solely around abusing NO but then you have to find it and not get disrupted yourself. At the end of the day, it is simply a 4 mana sorcery that requires a creature to sac to it. Don't get me wrong, the card is great, but it's not that great.

How does Canadian Threshold beat NO?

They have Force of Will and Daze. Daze is very easy to play around if you run mana dudes, and the NO player will Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy their Forces, and/or simply recur the NO with Witness.

Threshold is left with a bunch of crap like Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, and Mongoose and Goyf. Threshold can't really race NO Rock, because it runs 4 Goyf too, and also stuff like Wall of Roots and Kitchen Finks which will block Goose all day long unless they 2-for-1 themselves with Bolts.

I've tested that matchup and it is ridiculously easy for NO Rock to beat.

Wasteland and mana denial is a non-issue because NO Rock can fetch plenty of basics, and also gets mana from its dudes.

[(nameless one)]

I think we have a new archetype here:

someone start a Next Level Order primer under established decks...

after all, it has been showing up in top8s and doing well...

[Jak]

How does Canadian Threshold beat NO?

They have Force of Will and Daze. Daze is very easy to play around if you run mana dudes, and the NO player will Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy their Forces, and/or simply recur the NO with Witness.

Threshold is left with a bunch of crap like Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, and Mongoose and Goyf. Threshold can't really race NO Rock, because it runs 4 Goyf too, and also stuff like Wall of Roots and Kitchen Finks which will block Goose all day long unless they 2-for-1 themselves with Bolts.

I've tested that matchup and it is ridiculously easy for NO Rock to beat.

They can burn your little dudes, Stifle your fetches, Spell Snare your Walls and Tarmogoyfs, and Wasteland your duals. The deck will keep you off four mana.

Are you even understanding yourself? You just said you went 50/50 against a fringe deck when I see you going 0-2, 2-0, 1-2, and 0-1. In a tournament, that would be called going 1-3.

You obviously think you are right and everyone on this Magical card gaming strategy forum is wrong so let's end this. You don't seem to get it and refuse to even listen to results that you got for yourself.

[beastman]

How does Canadian Threshold beat NO?

They have Force of Will and Daze. Daze is very easy to play around if you run mana dudes, and the NO player will Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy their Forces, and/or simply recur the NO with Witness.

Threshold is left with a bunch of crap like Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, and Mongoose and Goyf. Threshold can't really race NO Rock, because it runs 4 Goyf too, and also stuff like Wall of Roots and Kitchen Finks which will block Goose all day long unless they 2-for-1 themselves with Bolts.

I've tested that matchup and it is ridiculously easy for NO Rock to beat.

Wasteland and mana denial is a non-issue because NO Rock can fetch plenty of basics, and also gets mana from its dudes.

Yes it can. And I don't believe I said Canadian even wanted to counter NO. They use all their resources disrupting your early game, as they beat you down with goyfs or geese. you probably wiil resolve NO at some point, but by that time they will have gotten you low enough on life to be able to kill you with the bolts and fires that will undoubtedly be sitting in their hand.

Stifling fetches and wasting lands is incredibly relevant in the match as that is what keeps you playing on their time clock.

Regular thresh has a much harder time dealing with NO. I will concede that point, but a competent player will be able to hide their forces on top with B storm until you try to actually cast NO.

I will say it again. The card is undoubtedly powerful, and you have built a deck that abuses it very well, you just seem to overestimate how powerful it is. People are telling you ways that other decks have to answer the card, and I think you should just take some time to listen, and take their arguments into account, as it will make you a better player.

[SilverGreen]

What? Just because I lost a few games to Stax doesn't mean anything.

If NO resolves, it's gg for 90% of decks. It was vs. Stax, and he mostly beat me with early Chalice @ 1 than anything else.

I'm fairly confident that if I played vs. any other deck like Thresh I would win >70% of the games, and vs. Stax it's actually 50/50, which is what the results showed, due to Chalice of the Void nullifying discard spells, and Humilty/Magus.Closed case. I'll trade all my MtG collection for two more playsets of NOs and Progenitus (Progenitii? Progenitae?) and a M&M's pack. People interested send me a PM.

[AngryTroll]

3. People saying that the combo can be disrupted with Swords deserve to lose to progenitus in a tournament with three swords to plowshares sitting on their hand.

If you're holding three Swords, you have a decent manabase, and they resolve Natural Order in anything but Elves!, then, yes, you do probably deserve to lose to it. What green creatures get run besides Goyf, Pridemage, and the Zoo dudes (which probably don't have NO backup)? They're all worth Swordsing. I guess it's acceptable to lose in that position if they sack a Mongoose to it.

[MTG-Fan]

They can burn your little dudes, Stifle your fetches, Spell Snare your Walls and Tarmogoyfs, and Wasteland your duals. The deck will keep you off four mana.


Wasteland is irrelevant when you are only playing two colors. I fetch out non-basics, and I also have mana accel dudes in the form of Wall and Elves.

So they are going to draw 4 Stifles in the opening hand every game? No. I only run 6 fetchlands anyway, so Stifle is ridiculously easy to play around.

I've played the matchup. I can also guarantee that I would beat anybody playing Canadian Thresh 6/10 games or more with my Natural Order Rock deck. The matchup is tremendously in favor of NO rock.



You obviously think you are right and everyone on this Magical card gaming strategy forum is wrong so let's end this. You don't seem to get it and refuse to even listen to results that you got for yourself.

I know I'm right, You're just arguing without any kind of experience or testing results. I've PLAYED these matchups multiple times. You haven't even played with, or against this deck. What the hell do you know?

[beastman]

Why do you post anymore? You obviously don't need us mortals to explain anything to you. You blow off everything everyone says, and make an idiot of yourself in the process. Do everyone a favor, and make yourself scarce.

[Nihil Credo]

According to my highly sophisticated calculations, there's a 0.000237 chance of this thread producing anything worthwhile anymore. I'll take those odds.